BKP #360 [EN] David+Jono, What Happened to Selling Out？

David, Jono and I talk about what it means to be a sellout in the modern era. If that term even exists anymore in our fields. David is a magic the gathering player and a poet, and Jono is a singer/songwriter. All of us look at the term quite differently, because of our backgrounds but also because Jono is a bit younger than David and I.

Episode Transcript

(00:07):
all right uh how's everyone doing I have Jono and David
thank you for coming
uh
we really I really wanted you guys to come on because
I wanted to talk about selling out
because it was a term that
randomly came up in conversation
and I realized I hadn't heard it in forever
so let's start with you guys kind of introducing yourselves

(00:31):
hello I'm David and I'm a sellout
I'm David I've lived in Shanghai for a fair while
and I'm I work as a teacher trainer here
but I'm also a writer
I publish collections of poetry back in the UK
and organize a lot of literature stuff there and
and so on

(00:52):
mm hmm
hi I'm Jono
I'm an artist producer songwriter
been making music my whole life and then
half Chinese half Kiwi like New Zealand and
yeah great great to be here
thanks
Jono's first time on the podcast
I'm really happy to have you David's been on time

(01:13):
we've talked about magic for like forever
yeah I'm just thinking
I'm gonna start introducing myself as an artist
sounds really good I need to do that more that's great
so I guess I started off talking with my friends about
the influencer space
that's kind of where we were we were talking about
and I realized that

(01:33):
all of these influencers are selling things that
they don't care about
that have nothing to do with them
and I called it selling out
and all of a sudden I was like
oh that's a term I haven't heard in a while
so what do you guys consider selling out
I would say for me it's kind of betraying your own principles

(01:57):
like if you believe something
and then all of a sudden
you're doing something that goes against those principles
you're compromising on on you
for some of a sort of invisible gain
then I think at that point you are selling out
I think it's that simple

(02:18):
and I think some people
do things that I would consider to be sort of like
shameless selling out behavior
yeah that
wouldn't occur to them as being selling out
because that's the way they see things
whereas for me I could never do that yeah
yeah
Jono？
I think I think in music it's like a degree

(02:39):
of like how much you're selling out because to become
kind of successful
there are like degrees of things that you are
willing to do and
like not willing to do to become more successful
but I do agree with you I think it's like
your own principles your vision for your art or
like if you
if you believe in something and you kind of go

(03:00):
against it to sell a product
I believe that's maybe the
idea of selling
definition definition I think hmm
I remember the first time I kind of dealt with it was
I remember seeing Kurt Cobain
on the cover of I want to say Rolling Stone
and he had a T-shirt that he wrote on and it said

(03:23):
corporate magazines are still shit
or something like that
something on those lines
and he was on the cover of a corporate magazine
Rolling Stone or whatever it might have been Vogue
I was on a big magazine and on his shirt
and I was just like
is this selling out
like you're getting paid
to do this you know photo shoot

(03:44):
you're still fighting against it
and I'm sure he struggled with it right
like as Nirvana was so huge he had to struggle with
“selling out”
I think it's like you bring up Kurt right like his
one of his last interviews he talked about like the
dilemma of kind of doing all these commercial things
that he didn't necessarily like
didn't want to do

(04:04):
yeah but he was like
every year like when you become like that big
people go after you with like so many lawsuits
and you have to basically
like the this album basically goes to
paying for the last album's lawsuits
so it just becomes like a cycle of like
okay we have to make another album to basically cover
you know

(04:24):
last year's this this this and this and this and crazy
he found it really hard with that because he's like
I'm just I write songs
I want to be cool with my fans but
there's like corporate relationships and a bunch of
like people that they have to also look after
there's a lot of responsibility
when you're that big as an artist right
so it becomes tricky with like
you know I don't want to do this magazine shoot

(04:45):
oh wait but you know you have to if you want to
right be able to keep selling music and that kind of thing
so like what you said before
it's like a matter of degrees
like
how much are you willing to sell out as opposed to
like kind of black and white
it's like different I think with music it's like
because the technology has changed so much

(05:07):
in the last like hundred years
because like recorded music's only been like 100 years
yeah I feel like with radio people were very like
we have to make our song fit in with radio
yeah now it's TikTok right
it's just a different time where people write
music differently depending on the technology
and then I think it's just how you go about it
like if you have a really
like if you have a song that you love

(05:29):
for yourself and then yeah
and then somebody comes and it's like
maybe in the radio area
hey like can you cut the last verse of that or something
yeah and you're not willing to do that
then you'd like
well if you're willing to do it
then you're kind of selling a
piece of yourself in order to
I don't know to fit in fit in right for sure
yeah
yeah
it's one of those things that Freddie Mercury was

(05:50):
lauded for wasn't it
yeah they really wanted to change Bohemian Rhapsody
significant like famously right
how can you have this seven minute song
that goes from this section to this section yeah
and I think in the film
it's covered how he says no to that
isn't it it's sort of lauded as this
you trust the artist
they know best kind of rather than the
the grubby producers
yeah in the background

(06:11):
do you have to deal with that
you probably don't
in poetry yeah
not really
it's not a
Theres a thing called poetic license！
You can kind of do whatever the fuck you want
there are elements within poetry to be honest
where it exists in terms of
like for instance
if you want to be published
by one of the bigger publishers

(06:33):
let's say something like Penguin or Faber
you're gonna have to cater to
a wider poetry reading audience which is gonna be
primarily a bit older and whiter if I'm honest and so
like if you were sending a manuscript to them
maybe some of your
your poetry might be
the kind of poems that those people want to read

(06:54):
and some of the more edgy poetry is perhaps
in the more like the independent presses so
back in the UK a few years ago
quite a few years ago now I ran a festival
in Leeds which is my University City in the north of England
and it was called Lipfest
Leeds Independent Poetry Presses Festival

(07:17):
and the sort of idea behind that was
we'd invite all of the presses
and poets from presses that weren't
the mainstream
and they'd come and they
like sell their independent books
and they'd have readings and things like that
and we'd attract
the idea was we would attract people to come
and read something
or pick something up that they'd never heard of before

(07:37):
and maybe maybe broaden their horizons
and that worked really well
and there was a real appetite for it
because people like
oh goodness if I go into the bookshop
I can't find any of these books
you know poetry is such a niche thing
so it's really good
and we also we did it without any government funding
which is pretty much a miracle
yeah we didn't I mean
I got I got shingles

(08:00):
it was so stressful
doing this it was
we were so worn down
me and my friend Dave who is a Canadian guy
we had this sort of
faux company called Chatman and Scarecrow
and we put this all it was just a mess
and he'd like been made redundant
so he had some free time and a bit of spare money
and it was brilliant though
because you just were able to put something together

(08:22):
that was genuinely
like it unique
individual people
yeah doing something totally new meeting each other
they never would
stuff that the bookshops just wouldn't stock
and I think to link it to music as well perhaps like
there seems to have been
I don't know how you might feel about this
but back in back in my day

(08:42):
me and Arthur are frightfully old compared to Jono
you
you would have small bands performing in small venues
yeah and they
you know they would sell tickets on the door
and they would sort of like
be the ones to know the
the sort of
the ones that the hipsters would know and hear about
yeah and they would think that

(09:04):
being on MySpace was selling out
like they wouldn't go on MySpace
because they didn't want to sign up
for the corporate machine
yeah whereas these days no matter how
popular or unpopular you are
or unpopulars scarce scarcely known let's say
um there are these huge
governing streaming services
where you kinda have to be

(09:25):
so like my little brothers in a band
um they're called they're brilliant
they're called Good Boy Nico
and he plays bass for them
they're on they're on Spotify
the new their new single had like 7,000 listens
it's really really good yeah it's awesome
they're fantastic
and but they're on Spotify
but they just know they have to be
because you have to sort of be on there

(09:46):
you're about to tell me you're not on Spotify
no he's black on Spotify
so what's it like now then
with music with
like when we were kids I feel like a lot of us
kind of
looked to certain people to be like
that's what's cool that's what's you know

(10:09):
fun to listen to
and then you had these people
that would tell you about new music
now I don't even hear that anymore
it's different
yeah I think with music
maybe like in that time like
I guess you guys talking about like
90s 2000s time
it's like a different time right
when like
the streaming companies just completely took over
like you look at the ticket sales of like a show

(10:30):
yeah it's like on it's kind of almost like on like
it's rare that you'd see like an artist you'd like
and then you'd pay you know
like a reasonable fee to go watch them play somewhere
you know I mean yeah
it's like once somebody becomes big right away
their tickets just like
immediately 200
300 like
I'm trying to do the math
but it's like
a lot more expensive than maybe it used to be right

(10:51):
I think Kurt Cobain talked about this
he was like Madonna sells tickets for how much
yeah
what the you know I mean yeah
so but it's just a different era right
because it's like
now it's like streaming companies prioritizing people
like re listening to the song over and over again
not people going and like
I have 20 dollars I'm gonna buy a record

(11:11):
that I like yeah I have you know I pay $15
and listen to as much music as possible for the month
right which is the technology is different
this is a different time
it's still possible but
it's it's harder and so for instance
I remember going to see the Arctic Monkeys for a fiver
just as they were becoming famous

(11:32):
like they stuck to their prices
but then similarly like last year
you probably all saw about the Oasis
ticket fiasco with the
sort of staggered pricing everyone wanted to go and
the longer you're in the queue
the more expensive the tickets got
oasis don't need the money you know yeah
it's not necessarily them as well
yeah the money it's like Ticket Master

(11:56):
yeah yeah but you'll still get
festivals where there'll be an amazing lineup
and the price is relatively fair
so I'm thinking particularly of the Belgian ones
like Rock Vector
Pucker Pop Pucker Pops amazing
if you've if you ever get a chance to go to that
and they just like
it's just sort of seen as bit like in Belgium

(12:17):
particularly in the summer
there's a real culture of festivals that is like okay
it's the jazz festival this week we're all gonna go
and
last time I checked
festivals are still very affordable
and they'll get some amazing
like when I went to Buckle Pop
the headliners were Radiohead
Massive Attack and Daft Punk
and crazy
and that was you know that was just the three nights

(12:38):
how much was it to go there
I think it cost me about 50 quid okay
that's for the for the weekend for the ticket yes
but I mean we're talking a long time ago we're talking
goodness 2005 or something
I have to check how much they are now but yeah
my friends still go every year and still thinks it's
like an affordable
I mean I remember

(12:58):
the last big concert I went to was in Shanghai
and I saw Taylor Swift
right I'm a huge fan I'm a huge fan of her beginning
the beginning of her career she's great and
the Red tour was huge but it was also like
I want to say like a couple thousand RMB just
just to get in like that was crazy

(13:21):
and I was thinking like when I was a kid
tickets were like eight bucks like 10 bucks
and you could go see like
good artists at like CBGBs or like wherever in like New York
it was not expensive to go
and now it's like hundreds and right
I always wonder where that money goes
like there are I understand that there are

(13:42):
you know fees that you have to pay for like
I know just a setup and all that you
you basically travel with an army
if you're Taylor Swift right
like is that where is
does that considered selling out
that you're just like pumping up your
ticket prices
and quote monetizing off of your fans
does that count
maybe the selling out in the way is

(14:07):
for instance in the UK
the local politicians
accepting the complimentary tickets
and then spouting off clap trap about
Taylor Swift performing generating
revenue for the local area
and creating jobs and adding money to the economy
that the moment you're in that sphere where like for
BTS are talked

(14:27):
being talked about
is the amount of money that they make for Korea as a
an export at that point you
you've become part of the capitalist machine
bangs Jonas drum you know at that point
you've become it right
but is that selling out
like I think

(14:48):
art and capitalism are two completely separate things
they're like two philosophies if that makes sense right
I think there's a reason why people like
when they see an influencer
trying to sell them a product
it's not as disgusting as like
your favorite artist being like
NordVPN or you know like imagine
like your favorite artist selling you some you know

(15:08):
I don't know insurance policy right
but whereas if it's an influencer or something
it's like oh
it's an influencer
because I think art is kind of like
it's supposed to transcend
like the whole point of art is supposed to it's
it's it's supposed to be a lot about like
expressing yourself
sure that kind of thing
you know but then trying to make a living off of it
then you're gonna have to figure out how to like
okay am I willing to do this

(15:30):
or am I willing to do you know what I mean
there's degrees of
I'm selling a piece of my soul or something
yeah
I I
still feel like influencers
do that and it is selling out like to me it
it felt like you're you're this
I don't know
let's say knife reviewer or whatever you review tech

(15:52):
and then you are paid by
X company to write a good review stuff
like that is straight up selling out to me right
because you are
I follow you because you're honest right
and then
if you were getting paid and not telling me about it
I feel like that's selling out
like that's a hard line for me
okay but where are the
where are the degrees right like

(16:14):
some people will be like
well he only said the good things
he didn't really say the bad things
is that considered selling out is that considered just
I don't know where
to cut that line for certain people right
you know and that is kind of why
I think the term has kind of disappeared
because a lot of people will say
oh well I didn't really sell out

(16:35):
it's just I need I need to make a buck
like for sure
it's kind of that grind culture started happening
would you say it's been sort of it
lives on in the term being a shill
oh I don't even hear shill anymore do you know
I do
shill is someone who sells something
or as I understand it somebody who shut

(16:57):
somebody who sells something that they don't believe in
and they are sort of like a mouthpiece for a company
right yeah so
I havent heard shill
corporate shill used to be like
I haven't heard that term in like forever
it's been a while
I don't know if you like
still have people that say that
yeah yeah yeah I've seen yeah recently as all

(17:19):
that phrase
I think all of those terms have kind of disappeared
because it's just been so normalized
like I see it you just see it everywhere now where
I think when we were kids
being called a sellout was like a big DIS
it hurts yeah
do you think people put
capitalism over art more now than maybe before

(17:43):
yeah I do 100%
I think with like it's so hard to disentangle it
because individuals are always different but
I think as a just generally in I can speak for Britain
I don't know about other places but
I think we've definitely lurched more conservatively
in the past 20 years generally

(18:04):
so the current labor government
that are in place in the UK are
to my mind to the right of where
David Cameron
and George Osborne's Conservative Party were
and I think when you I think right wing often links to
like not feeling as confident

(18:25):
to speak up about your moral values
and what you and that
you know
these are the things you care about in my opinion okay
I'm maybe I'm unfair I'm sure
you know and and to be honest
a lot of conservatives are not shy about sharing their
moral values they will often denounce right but
like in terms of like
I made this I believe in it

(18:46):
I believe in this more than money
I would say that's more of a left wing thing
than a right wing thing
I agree I think so
just
generally
and I think I think there is still a desire for
counterculture
but it's so corporate
like I'll give you just a silly example like

(19:07):
you can't walk into a mall
these days without seeing some sort of stupid
camping themed bar
yeah or a glamping zone or something yeah
and they're everywhere going camping and seeing nature
or all those kids who
went on the bikes out in
you know near Wuhan and went out on the bikes to

(19:27):
just there is a real
craving for some sort of counter culture
but
it's so
so sterilized and so sort of like
you know people don't want to go on a camping trip
and get muddy
and experience things
and have difficult conversations
they want to go and take nice selfies
for their Instagram feed

(19:48):
and you know look like they're
in an Allison Goldfrapp video
you know they don't want to
so it's it's weird
there's like an idea of counterculture
and sort of hippie lifestyle but so long as the
so long as the necklace you wear is made by hermes
or something it's weird like to me
because when that start happening

(20:10):
when did that start happening
I do remember when I grew up
hip hop was like counterculture
and
you started seeing hip hop artists work with brands
and then I was like that's weird
and it didn't strike me until way later
and as I'm thinking about it now that
they all do it now like

(20:32):
you know Rihanna with whatever brand yeah
it just kind of happens
and it's like again like I said
normalize but when did it start happening
that's like have any like idea
it's a good question
I know
I mean
Audrey Hepburn
the whole breakfast at Tiffany's kind of thing

(20:54):
I know that was
that was a Truman Capote novel
and she was playing the character
but it you know
Marilyn Monroe
Zaza Gabor diamonds are a girl's best friend and etc
it's always been there
uh huh
but perhaps like the stars themselves weren't so
independently wealthy
like they would rely on

(21:15):
the Beatles relied on the payment for the contracts
right
like the producers were the ones that organized it
whereas now
maybe
like people are more aware of their
like the superstars are more aware of
their personal brand in inverted commas
and have more independent wealth
and
I don't know I don't know when it started happening
but I'd also kick back and say that

(21:38):
I think that we are maybe influenced
blinded by our own presence in Shanghai
which you live here for a long time
and it's such
it's such a fast paced competitive city
even the insects are on at it
you'll you'll stop it
you can't stop at a crossing or you get
bitten on the ankles by a couple of mosquitoes
it's so hectic

(21:59):
yeah there's so much going on constantly
and everyone's like it's a is a capitalist city
in extreme everyone's making money everyone's kind of
comparing themselves with those around each other
in very much in the rat race
when I go back to England
a country that since Brexit has stagnated

(22:21):
and I go back to the places I used to live
people aren't caring about this there
if they're going to music
it's gonna be the local band that they've heard of
people are gonna be writing their local song
I used to live in a small town
I visit there whenever I go back where they actually ban
anything that isn't local
like any big supermarkets or any big chains
they just won't allow
planning permission

(22:41):
because there's a belief in protecting
local culture and local life that's great
whereas London's the opposite
London is like please come invest you know buy
buy this skyscraper
but the average the average person like in a
in a small town in England is kind of like
you know they're not gonna
care about Rihanna's lipstick or whatnot

(23:02):
it's irrelevant to them
they they don't care yeah but here it's
you know it's all it's all about
what the other person's doing and
I do think there is that genuine craving for
something different
but it's it's tough and also
it's kind of like

(23:23):
I don't know if this will make the edit offer
because this is going to be a political point
so this might not make the edit but
it's kind of hard here to go against the grain
yeah and say I want to be an alternative person
I want to go against what I'm told
I want to start something totally new
there's a danger in that you

(23:45):
know I think that's Asian culture
I think Asia in general
is more of a fit in culture
as opposed to the US
where we were taught you are unique
you need to be different individual
so it's a completely different culture
so I do understand that here it is very different

(24:07):
how do you feel about this like the music scene here
like we have a friend Siyan
who's like yeah pretty unique
yeah she's very different to like everyone
yeah yeah
I know it's a good question I feel like
it's kind of I think the it's growing a lot here
yeah I think counterculture I think so yeah really

(24:28):
I mean because I don't see it because we're not in it
I think it's just like
underground kind of rappers and shit like that
yeah they're just like going crazy right now but
I don't know
it's very it's very different in terms of like
the infrastructure for music and art is
completely different here
how so you know
it's just like for artists

(24:48):
there's not really an easy way to monetize their art in China
yeah but like especially like I have friends that do
like that I've done over 100 million
500 million streams in China
and if you look at the royalty statements
it's like very depressing
yeah it's very very depressing and it's like uh but
but it's at the same time therefore

(25:08):
like a lot of the artists here they'll try and find
endorsements you know shows like Club Permit like
opportunities that kind of thing
but it's not to do with
it's not to do with monetizing the music
it's to do with monetizing
everything else around the music
if that makes sense to be able to make money
like what
like like as in like the the music itself

(25:29):
the art is not the it's the
way to get people into the door
and then it's like you sell them your
you know live show your
live show product
that's fine
yeah product try to do some product thing like
you know like some
Adiddas campaign that kind of thing
right that's where I'm kind of like yeah
Xiaohongshu like sponsorship you know

(25:50):
yeah things like that
yeah but that's just how
like how they like that somebody has to
you have to make money back
right you know if you're gonna put
half a million RMB into
a project yeah or whatever
you gotta find a way to make it back right
yeah so
yeah I do get that like I remember when we were kids
there were bands that just toured locally

(26:13):
and they made enough touring locally
whether it's out of the back of you know
like a couple vans
or that was okay you know and
that was enough to keep the band going
right and now I'm guessing it's not
there's artists
apparently in America that are like selling
2000 people capacity

(26:35):
rooms and that kind of thing
and they're just not making enough money themselves
they're like like losing on the tour
right because the cost is so much
and also the in between like the live nations and yeah
depends on the contract
but it's kind of interesting
like I've looked at a couple people's deals
it's very interesting
so what happened is what I want to know because

(26:56):
I have a friend that asked told me he was like
he thinks it's Facebook
he thinks it's social media
it used to be cool that
so and so knew about your band about your art
and then all of a sudden it switched
he thinks it switched when like Facebook came in

(27:17):
where it was no longer about who liked you
it was about how many times you were liked right
like it changed from quality to quantity
like
immediately it was measurable how many people liked you
and so it didn't really care about who liked you
it was just how many people

(27:39):
and immediately he was like
that's when it switched for him
like he right now he's like a jazz
saxophone player in Shanghai
and he was in New York for a little bit
and he was like yeah it's just different now
it used to be
you know
this radio DJ like knew about you or this cool like
you know I guess
what are those called like little magazines like

(28:02):
it that they would pass out in New York that
knew the cool new bands
like those guys knew you and that was the cool thing
yeah the tastemakers yeah
but now it's just how many likes do you get and
that's how everything is kind of
measured now as opposed to
oh these magazines have written about you or

(28:22):
this radio station has played your song
I would
except that that might be
a point at which there is a shift
in the way it's perceived but I think
not to disparage your friend I always love you
but
I think most artists
like would not care too much about the number

(28:47):
if they weren't selling out
if they believed in the work and they like
if somebody who you respect really likes your work
that means so much more than 1,000 likes
yeah or
if somebody responds meaningfully
to something you've produced
then that to the art the average artist who

(29:09):
has integrity will have a better
response as well I think I had a better feeling
like it doesn't matter like
you know say a poem of mine goes viral or something
uh this probably won't happen but let's say it did
like a very unlikely situation that it did
and all of a sudden I got

(29:30):
10,000 likes
that I wouldn't care at all really about that
but if somebody who
whose opinion I value reaches out and says I read your
latest book and I love this
this one's amazing
that means so much more sure
and that probably
be the thing that I
continue to work for is like
writing
where it makes a difference to an individual person

(29:52):
rather than
you know go the kind of all I'm
somehow better now because I got 10,000
likes for this one thing you know
sure let's say 1,000 people like
and to like one person that you really respect
where's that balance

(30:13):
well it's pretty nice
yeah
but yeah that's true
one versus maybe 10,000 is does that make it 100,000
like at some point it's got a balance out right
it's a good point that you're making of like there's
recognition from people that you care about
and also the monetary
value of art right

(30:35):
so it's kind of like
I feel like both are important
especially like I just finished
an album process
yeah and it's kind of like if you spend
a year or two years of your time
like putting your own money effort that kind of thing
there's like a part of it which is like
okay I hope it makes something
I mean I hope it makes something back
but also you know
there's I also hope people like it
and listen to it for the sake of listening to it right

(30:55):
sure
this also one of those things as well where
but poetry is quite badly placed to answer that
because of the art forms were one of the cheapest
you need a pen and a pad and some suffering don't you
like
whereas like music or like art physical art yeah
like you have to buy the materials
you have to you have to have the equipment

(31:16):
you've got to invest the time and and all of that
so it's it's different really
maybe that like I don't put it this way
I don't know many sell out poets
though I would I would say you're a sell out poet
there's many of those around
musicians a few
but I think like
back to your point about the 10,000 likes of people

(31:38):
like how many times do people like it
I think
it's changed the way people consume art as well
it's got it because it's like
the the numbers of how many numbers this has is
directly correlated with the
monetary value of that
right right
people used to make music like I want to make a song
where you can go listen to it you enjoy it
but now it's like how do I make a song where you

(31:59):
loop it loop it over and over and over and over
and you keep listening to it
because that's how you make more money
right right I don't know it's just different formats
yeah
do
as well
are we at a stage where
the amount of listens that a song has
affects the way that people critically perceive it

(32:22):
so I think so yeah
I think people get sick of stuff too
yeah
oh I definitely stick stuff real quick
yeah
I guess
there is this Invis or there's this wall
with the likes
where you don't know
who's actually liking your content
like you're not familiar with most of these people

(32:44):
but there's just such a large and there's
like an amount where you're like
oh I guess people
actually do like this
but I don't know who these people are
like I think if it was me
and I'm saying this from a podcast
that has never taken off
but like if it was a bunch of people
that started liking my stuff that I
hated

(33:05):
like I didn't like any of these people but
droves of them came in and liked it
I don't I would look at myself and be like
am I doing the right thing
like
all of these people that I hate
suddenly like the stuff that I'm putting out
like I would be a little bit
self reflective and be like

(33:26):
I don't think I'm doing the right thing like
but because there's this wall
that you don't know most of the people that are
like clicking into your stuff
so you're kind of just like well
I just assume that it's quote the masses right
and then you're just like
well then I'm kind of okay with it
right you have no personal connection with these
because it's through a screen it's through

(33:49):
you know it's through Spotify where you just
you just see the number of plays go up
yeah but you don't actually know who's listening to it
that
kind of that's always kind of bothered me
it's the rat race dude
yeah it's the it's crazy
but like again I would never
I'm with you I think there's degrees right
like I think if an artist was selling his own merch

(34:12):
cool
yeah right
like I think if you're
if Julius Black had t shirts I'd buy 100% I'm on
there's like degrees of
selling out yeah
you know but I think if it's your stuff
like you went and you were like
I want to print out these
t shirts it's got my you know album cover on
I suddenly was like hey NordVPN

(34:32):
all of a sudden I'm like what's he doing exactly
I think there's a clear line between what you make
right and when you're just selling
other people use a term shilling other people's stuff
yeah right I think then there's the next level where
like for instance a product or
or something would appear in your work

(34:54):
or you would you would create work to commission
for money I
know this is gone
so for instance
in the UK there was a bit of a scandal
in the poetry world
a couple of years ago
one of one of the banks
released a series of ads to promote their bank

(35:16):
and pension funds and things like that
and they decided to be a really cute thing
to get a load of poets to write poems about
how great it was to
invest in pensions and things like that
and so certain poets
took the money and did it
and though these adverts ran for like a year
and those those poets were sort of

(35:39):
criticized quite heavily for
producing this work to commission
to sort of like this folksy background music of
you know
I think it was called nationwide with a bag
if you did that
I would make fun of you for the rest of your life
yeah and I'd accept it I couldn't do it
I wasn't asked so you know
but if I had been asked I'd have just been like

(36:00):
yeah yeah
the thing is
but I have done work for commission before
but always for things that I care about
so that's the question of the moral principle like
do you like for instance I did like
a poem for like a like an old an old historic house
yeah in the U
K like National Trust property

(36:21):
and they asked if I'd write a poem for it
I did it's quite happy to do it yeah
um and I think I got paid a pittance
but I you know it's my name
I'm I'm I'm happy to do that
but yeah if I've
if McDonald's asked me to write a poem
praising burgers and offer me
actually how much would I take
like it is the question that's so rare in poetry

(36:43):
but would I would I sell out
if McDonald's asked me to write a poem
you know what it reminds me of crazy with a Big Mac
do you guys see that
I love Big Max
there's a couple years ago of Matt Damon
walking around
with like all the like people inventing things
like people inventing like the plane
and it's like the right fortune favors the bold crypto
com

(37:03):
oh
bro it was such a good ad dude it was so well produced
oh yeah you know
and then like after like after 2022 or something
everything just tanked
yeah and then the actors all just were like
what
I didn't know what I just got paid for that
what do you mean
but that's kind of what it reminds me of right
like an artist that you're like
oh that's good will hunting

(37:24):
yeah
he's telling me to buy crypto I should go buy crypto
yeah
but that like David said that's always happened
like I think movie stars have always
kind of done that like commercials
if you were ever in a commercial when we were kids
that was like

(37:45):
grounds we made fun of right you know
what are you doing in this like
let's say Ritz Peanut Butter Cracker commercial
like that was not cool
the awful the awful Spice Girls Pepsi song
yeah and then
for some reason now like everyone's in commercials
right I think I think what it like I hope for yeah

(38:09):
being optimistic
is that people could find a more sustainable way of
monetizing their life the artwork right yeah I've
I've had like decent streams in my life
where it's like a couple
couple million and stuff like that
just to be able to make like a
like a reasonable
like career off of doing this

(38:30):
it's like you have to be able to do like
Olympian levels of like streaming right
so and and therefore people have to
do all these like extra things that the fans are like
you know what the fuck is this yeah
why are you selling me this product right
I feel like
maybe if people kind of found a way to like
okay we're gonna support our favorite artists
by supporting their work

(38:52):
it would be a different story
but it's just not that way right now
right now it's just like a million corporations in
between the artist and the consumer so
that's why they came out with things like Patreon
and like for sure
to me that actually makes a lot of sense
like I would rather directly support
my favorite you know artists or whatever

(39:14):
and just directly give them money as opposed to
go through some other medium
right you know click into an ad or whatever it just
it just feels
dirty right you know
and now I think it's just especially your generation
I think it almost feels normal right

(39:34):
like let's say C m put out something
like oh she was in a an ad for
I don't know whatever workout brand
oh yeah my friends in there
give her a like give her a click right
it doesn't feel
I think to most people as dirty anymore right
I've had this conversation with a couple artist friends
which is like

(39:54):
are you an artist or are you an influencer
because there's two different things right
I think so and people
different like they put them together
they're like this is the same thing
you're the artist is the face
and then the art is not important
it's to do with like
you know what I mean
I disagree
I mean no no no I disagree with that too
but yeah like as in marketing
people will basically come to you and say

(40:16):
like if you if you're
like the the major label system is insane
yeah like it's not it's basically nothing to do with
art anymore it's to do with like people
being on TikTok 18 times a day being like hey guys
yeah song of the summer you know
oh wow
so it's a completely like people signing
it's it's pretty interesting
like if you go if you go deep into it yeah

(40:36):
basically it's like
collapsed everything in the last couple years
like
basically how deals work streaming deals work
but it's more to do with promo
promoting yourself over and over and over again right
yeah
what you're saying is there are very few
real artists anymore
and well it's harder it's harder
okay yeah
it's harder to like
make something just for the sake of

(40:58):
making it making the music
yeah yeah
the prior like
like people have prioritized like algorithms and
looking music looking at music as like a piece of
content or like a sound bite
as opposed to like a piece of art you know
yeah and and that has an impact on

(41:18):
like people don't really listen as much
like to full albums anymore today
it's more and songs are getting shorter and shorter
as attention spans dwindle
people want people to like stream it again you know
yeah hmm
I
so I don't really listen to a lot of music on Spotify
I'm sorry
I listen to podcasts which are still long

(41:40):
and I'm okay with that I feel like
the long form stuff is still there
but they're getting paid differently
they're getting paid through like ad reads and stuff
right right
where they in the middle of the podcast
they'll be like oh
Nord VPN
you kill it you hate them
he's he's angling for a contract

(42:03):
and then we'll see a couple of years time
this
will be this will be what gets you going viral
and all the Nord VPN enthusiasts
but like
even in the middle of a podcast
like you'll listen to them do the ad read
and it
this early makes me upset

(42:23):
like
it makes me not want to buy whatever you're selling
because you've cut my content in half
and I'm listening to this ad
when I don't want to listen
and it makes like this
anger inside of me link to this thing that you're
selling me right
I think people don't
support art
yeah it's I don't know

(42:44):
I think at the same time people do support art
and people
like corporations and have made it more difficult
for people for the artist to go direct to consumer
mm hmm
if that makes sense
but I mean to me Spotify is very direct
yeah right how direct is it
it's not that I don't want to say that okay I got you

(43:05):
I'll happily say bad things about Spotify for it
so
the amount that the artists are paid from Spotify is
very very low
sure
it's same on most of the Chinese pop
yeah and the way that the algorithm works it sort of
it sort of prioritizes it recommends things for you

(43:27):
and it sort of takes away
you used to have to go out and find music and
you know identify sort of like
you go into a record shop and there would be
like sections of music
and you might pick one up that you'd not heard before
you might ask the person behind
yeah to put it on and let you listen to it
they're cool and it was a social experience and
and all of that whereas now it's

(43:49):
you log on to Spotify it's kind of like what's hot and
you'll know who you listen to
or recommend things that are similar
but it'll often the playlist will loop back to
particular artists that
like that's also it is a feature
yeah
pushed new music to me that I've never heard before
yeah
right we were talking on the way here
I listen to a lot of pop punk from like

(44:12):
the 90s and 2000 era
and there's that new band the paradox
I don't know if you've heard of them good
they are they are excellent
and
it came out of nowhere and all of a sudden I was like
oh this is like
2025 doing
1990s pop punk this is awesome
no I'm not trying to say it's bad it's different okay

(44:35):
but you've got you got to like
understand how driven toward like
for instance
like the charts in the UK now are decided by streaming
lessons rather than
rather than record sales it's on streaming lessons
and if you've got something like Spotify
that's recommending what you listen to

(44:56):
it's manipulating the charts
yeah I see
but did you see what I mean though
at the same time
it's like when's the last time you went and like
bought a physical
yeah no I I agree with that
but also if we're talking about just
in terms of how things have changed
that's a change right
like it feels like now for instance in order to be like

(45:17):
before you might be able to bring out a record
and then the record goes I don't know
silver and then they make more of it
and then it appears in more shops
whereas now
basically you just need to convince Spotify to play it
yeah it's a totally different mechanism for
achieving success really
yeah before you might be able to sell a record and
earn a lot of money

(45:38):
whereas on Spotify
you're never gonna earn that much off royalties
for listening
it depends it depends on like how much you stream
yeah like it's in terms of like
YouTube Spotify like Spotify still is
like it's it's okay
like I you know you can you can make good money
but it just depends on like how many monthly
listeners you have right

(45:58):
but also at the same time and saying that there's like
you know like
you're talking about the algorithm discovery programs
yeah so a lot of the times now
gotta be careful but like I don't care
it's like the
the you can go through a distributor
or whoever you're with
whether you're like
with Warner Universal
a lot of these like
labels are doing deals with the streaming company
yeah saying you you push the artist more on discovery

(46:18):
sure and well and then so the thing is
when when when Spotify pushes at a certain people
those streams
Spotify takes a portion
of that money if that makes sense
I think that's most platforms
yeah but they're doing that to like to
like an extreme degree now where they're just
I see like there was a point last year
where you know like Sabrina Carpenter

(46:39):
yeah yeah
so there's a point where it's like
last year you could put on like
a Spotify playlist with like five metal songs
yeah and she would
still show up at some point
because they just basically said
we're gonna pay you so much money
yeah
to be able to just put this in front of people's faces
right and it's just part of the
part of the machine right
it's like once you become that artist
who's in that top

(47:00):
you know yeah rotation just keeps rolling
just keeps rolling yeah
say what you like about Sabrina Carter
I've not heard Carpenter
I've not heard anyone call it espresso in a while
so now we have
we've taught been taught
now it is espresso not espresso
I have not heard the word espresso in a long time
I have a question for you guys go for it

(47:21):
have you guys ever had like
an artist or someone you really like
that you like supported
before they became really successful
you're like yeah like
my like seek little secret
and then well
like our little secret and then they become mega mega
Olympian successful and you're like Taylor Swift
fuck that guy
or like you know what I mean
dude Taylor Swift I listen to I have
she's such a gangster

(47:42):
I have a signed copy of her first album
that's crazy
I have an autographed
somewhere here
I'll show it you in a bit
I loved Taylor Swift
when she came out with her first two albums
I was like holy shit
and she's like this
weird kind of like nerdy girl that kind
just gets my like teenage angst

(48:02):
and then she's the biggest artist in the world now
yeah and I can't listen to any of her new music right
to me 1989
while it was might have been one of her best albums
right let's sell that album
to me I could not listen to that album I tried
and I was just like no her previous music was better
and I was okay with that like to some extent I was like

(48:26):
I'm happy about the time we had together
these three albums
like I enjoyed those three albums with you
and I'm okay with our
paths kind of parting ways right
like it almost felt like a breakup
and I was okay with it
I was like you went your way
I'm gonna go find other music
that kind of fits my taste right
no hard feelings right

(48:46):
but it does feel like she sold out
she doesn't make music that I like anymore
so maybe a little bit hard feelings right
because I think from the artist's perspective
there's two things right
I think someone that like Taylor Swift
she would still make what she wants to make at the time
but also she knows that there's a responsibility of
like back to the Kurt Cobain thing right

(49:07):
I'm making this album now to pay for the last albums
yeah damages I need to be able to like sustain
I have like a team of people
I have like 100 people under my umbrella
200 people right
so there's like two brains there
when you're creating something
and then you're thinking
oh what are my core fans like
oh how do we get these new types of people in
yeah it becomes a whole thing
but still
I think with Taylor Swift it'd still be a thing of

(49:29):
I want to create what's honest to me
yeah yeah yeah sure
while being mindful of all those other things
hmm
what about you
do you have like an artist that you felt
feel like sold out
and you no longer fuck with and you just feel like
I can't listen that anymore
too quiet I don't know maybe like when I was younger
are you really like Ed Sharon's first record yeah
was like this kid's a mate live one

(49:49):
you know this guy's amazing
he's like some ginger guy playing like
an acoustic guitar
and then he just started making like reggaeton
and I was like what the fuck is this right
you know what I mean
like you're trying to
this is so obviously you're just trying to go for like
this market and this market
but also I kind of respect it at the same time
right
like where's that line where you're just like
this guy's trying something new
and I respect that you're trying something new

(50:09):
yeah but also you're kind of betraying my
the mental image that I have of you and is it just me
right is it are you not really selling out
you're still being true to yourself
but to me there's this image of you that
I never want to change
for me it would be a singer called Regina Specter

(50:33):
okay who I still really like
but I just think the
like my experience with Regina Specter was as a kid
as a like an 18 year old student
hearing about her through word of mouth
through somebody who was a university friend who said
have you heard this album
and then I went and found it
listened to it

(50:54):
and just absolutely fell in love with this album
called Soviet Kitch
and the quality of the music
like
she obviously didn't have much money for production
she it was basically her on a piano
and on like one of the songs there was like a cello
and it was very much stripped back her
and then

(51:15):
she came to the UK for a tour
I went to the first ever gig
that she had and I was just mesmerized
a venue called the cockpit in Leeds
I thought she was absolutely astonishing
so then I bought tickets to go and see her other gigs
yeah
around the UK on this tour
I've got to keep seeing her
she's just bewitching
she's such an astonishing amazing artist
and she started recognizing me

(51:36):
she was like you
in one of the songs she stopped and she went you
you come to all of my concerts
I'm sorry I really like your music
it's really really cool
and then she brought out like a few years later
like gradually she became more and more popular
and then a few years later
she brought out another album
but all of a sudden
because of the exposure she'd had she had more money

(51:58):
and she had more
more ambition that she could do with it
and she brought out the next album
which was called begin to hope
which is another fine fantastic album
but it had lost something
of what made her special which was almost this sort of
quiet private relationship that
is more intimate
when there are less people who know about the person

(52:20):
and the music that's produced the quality of it
is for that smaller group
because it's only connected with a small group
whereas then this new album
like it had a much broader appeal
and it started appearing in like HMV
like the mainstream record shops in the UK
and people started hearing about it
and you'd you go into Top Man

(52:40):
the top Shop and there'd be a Regina Spektor song
like a new alternative
and now and it was just like ah like
there was something that was lost because
of your personal
sort of imaginary relationship with this person
and it's not that she'd sold out on her principles
or anything she probably
just had more money
to do more of what she wanted to do

(53:02):
and try out new things
yeah and I still really like it
but I don't like her the way that I did
like you know
now it would feel like if I went to a concert of hers
it'd be an arena yeah or a very big show
whereas I was on the front row and I was one of like
50 people yeah
is that the sort of
a blend towards hipsterish culture here as well

(53:23):
isn't it you want to
you want to try the thing that others don't know
but also because
if you are quite discerning you will
you'll identify things that you like
that are kind of niche
in a way and
you think it feels like maybe like
early on when it's more
when like the project is more stripped or it's smaller
it's like oh this is my
feels like a friend or something yeah yeah

(53:45):
and it feels
like there's less gimmicks when it's stripped back
right it's like
all you've got is
the very bare materials that you're communicating with
and if you can like
if you can make something out of those bare materials
and with nothing sort of fancy necessarily
it's just this is me
this is what I'm trying to communicate

(54:05):
I think it's a lot more
it's more appealing to me let's say
I think that's why for a lot of people
like the earlier work is the work that
gets people yeah
much bigger scale
he talked to her
and like somewhat like a band like coldplay
yeah like their first two albums
in my opinion pretty pretty great
yeah and then yeah

(54:25):
but let me sort more stripped back
and then the later stuff is
you know it's mostly
yeah it's quite a stadium rock
you know you've literally gone from being a small band
from Scotland
up to like full on stadium rock
and it's you know like
for me
I'll always appreciate the sort of quieter stuff as
you know

(54:46):
yeah it's what drew me to Rogan
when I first listened to him
he was just on his webcam doing DMT
yeah
but it was just him and red band on like webcams
like their laptop in front of it
and that was all they were doing
and I was like this is cool you know and now

(55:08):
it's I gotta hear about the woke left
yeah the
the contents different and I'm not crazy about it
I do feel like he sold out to like Spotify
and he the content has veered
but
the format still kind of similar
the format is still just a couple guys with like

(55:28):
fancier mics
but it's just a couple guys on mics recording you know
a conversation
which is largely why I do this still right
because it's fun like this is enjoying this is
kind of like my social
time for me and a lot of my friends right
like I still enjoy this but

(55:49):
when does the money just kind of like
pull you into a direction that maybe
you weren't originally in right
he had a lot more conspiracies he had a lot more like
weird out there kind of
thoughts and now
he doesn't really talk about that stuff anymore
he doesn't really appeal to that audience anymore
right

(56:10):
does bother me hmm
he's never someone I've listened to no
and I think mainly because when I was aware of him
or became aware of him as a as a podcaster
like it was always very much in a sort of bright
party space yeah
almost a sort of like you know
you met you met him way too late

(56:30):
yeah so like for me he's just
he's just often someone who's sort of cited
by people I don't particularly love
as being like oh well he said that
and it's usually something a bit mean
I'm telling you
back in the day
that was it like that was all I listened to

(56:51):
I could listen to him for
hours and just have it on all that
there's an interesting point here as well that I
was thinking about was like
you know there's like a period of like he got canceled
crazy yeah
do you think cancel culture has completely
changed art in a lot of ways
or think like things that people like artists
if you think about artists before
they're a lot more crazier

(57:12):
a lot more brash about Nirvana or something right
whereas now you could not make
you know an album like Never Mind
I don't think you couldn't be
I don't think so
yeah I don't think so yeah
but I think you could make it it just wouldn't take off
yeah right like a different era
but I think that
has a lot to do with what you were saying like the
the machine behind it wouldn't just wouldn't push it

(57:34):
right right so how do you get to all these people
without the machine
like you'd have to do a lot more local shows leg work
right and then
you still kind of need the machines to make it bigger
right right to magnify you
so in terms of cantonal culture I find it
I do find it very strange and a very malleable thing

(57:56):
I think broader culture wars are sort of co opted in
which becomes kind of strange so
an example I can think of is um
recently an artist I really like called Rashin Murphy
and she used to be in a band called maloko in the UK
kind of 90s dance
she did the time is now and things like that

(58:16):
and she's uh she great
anyway she brought an album
called Hip Parade a couple of years ago
and
collaborated with a German dance producer called DJ Coz
Coz K O Z E and just before like the album was
much anticipated
she'd not brought

(58:37):
anything out for a little while that had been
that had been any good
and he's regarded as an excellent an excellent artist
and also Rashin Murphy sort of crafted her career
in a sort of Lady Gaga kind of fashion
y way like she's she's always been into fashion
and she's always been a bit of a gay icon
and just before bringing out the album she

(58:59):
said something
that was very offensive to the trans community
she talked about she wasn't sure about kids getting
um hormone treatment before they were of age and that
she she's worried about mysterious forces
um shaping trans identity okay
and as you know this is a very

(59:19):
a very political issue that
there are there are lots of arguments either side of
and and you know we don't need to go into all of that
but as a result
it kind of like
shelved the album went ahead
but
it didn't get as much commercial success as perhaps
people were expecting
because people didn't quite know how to react

(59:42):
to her comments particularly
like so many of her fans are from the LGBT community
and then
she's coming out with something quite transphobic
potentially so again it's like her fans felt betrayed
yes her fans like she she apologized
when she got the initial reaction
I believe she apologized

(01:00:03):
and I think for some people that was it for her
they were like nope I'm never listening to her again
I'm done but yeah
you know the fact that she's said this is a betrayal
so I do think that it can have an impact on
how palatable you are if you say that
if you say the wrong thing
but then quite often people
sort of wait to see which way the winds

(01:00:25):
blowing on what the right thing is
like do you remember when
when Will Smith slapped Chris Roth yeah
do you remember like the day or two after
no one really knew what to say
really yeah a lot of my friends are like that's crazy
I know
but have you on both sides yeah
Tanger but I was like oh was that funny was that awful
was was was Chris Rock out of order

(01:00:47):
was Will Smith out
there was a lot of kind of
I know I remember at the time
there wasn't sort of a definitive stance to take okay
is there now
I think there's still not a definitive stance to take
I think
I think there is more that it was a bad thing to do
having general
might be bad
but at the time it was

(01:01:07):
you know it was seen as this like
people didn't really know how to respond like
or it felt like and sometimes I think with
with console culture
it can be a little like that where people will
see which way the winds blowing
and then when
a decision has sort of been made culturally
they will then follow that

(01:01:28):
yeah and you know like
unfortunately
terribly unfortunately like trans rights have become
like the political football like
in a way and you know you'll get people like J K
Rowling who herself has posed as a man
to sell more books

(01:01:50):
naming herself Robert Galbraith
so that she'll have more detective fiction
me about that
I had no opposing the idea of not being
the body you were born in
and having loads of use and influencing in the UK
literally the legal definition of what a woman is
and that culture war that ongoing kind of thing

(01:02:10):
and how it feeds into the way that people discuss
the way that people consume I think is a broader
so you do think that it
cancel culture will affect how people create art
I think it'll affect how people consume it
and therefore it might affect the way people create it
yeah potentially

(01:02:32):
do you think about that when you write songs
uh I
think that artists definitely sometimes will like
hold back sometimes when they're making stuff
yeah depending
you know
one thing that I actually do consider is selling out
in some ways is when I see like
artists performing at like political rallies
oh yeah that kind of thing
especially if they're getting paid a lot of money

(01:02:53):
to do it I feel like it's a little bit
it's like distasteful
it's the same as like the Matt Damon
Matt Damon on the crypto
yeah fortune favors the bold crypto com
it's like what
you're just getting your fans to gamble right
or right with political things
it's like dude you're you're an artist like you're
it's it's it's weird

(01:03:14):
you know but artists have always kind of
been a little bit political right
I agree I think I think it's good
but I think that when you take money
yeah to support somebody
it's a little bit it is a little bit different
right when you take money and then perform at a rally
I do it leaves a bad taste in my mouth as well
I'm sort of to

(01:03:34):
be honest I'm not sure I agree on this one
just because what my comment at the top about it
if it's consistent with your own beliefs like
for instance I don't think
less of the national
for supporting Obama and singing for Obama okay
um because it seems to chime with
the lead singers beliefs and what Obama stood for

(01:03:55):
I think I think that's okay
I think the problem is
if you're doing it but you don't really believe it
but you're taking the money like
you know if you're if you're
if you wouldn't stand up and endorse someone
like if Taylor Swift performed for Trump
yeah
let's say that let's in some imaginary universe
let's say that happened
just as a stark example

(01:04:16):
absolutely because it would be very clearly
like she's spoken against him before
it would be a very clear kind of it would impact
their their brand the way they were perceived but
here's my take then
if I supported whoever if I supported Jono

(01:04:37):
I would just do it for free
yeah like in no way would I be like
well I really support this person
they're doing great work
I'm gonna I would just do it for free I would just I'm
perfectly fine supporting so and so
however they need it because they're my friend
they're doing what I believe in
I just do it for free

(01:04:57):
and if I'm getting paid for it
it almost seems like that money is balancing out my
integrity
have another point go for it
so taking money
I kind of I'm kind of backtracking a little bit
a lot of those people like the Beyonce's and like the
Taylor Swift
they probably have to spend like 200k a day
okay to just like travel around right
if you think about how many people they're bringing

(01:05:19):
like you know
security bandmates hotels
so it kind of
does make sense that they would take some money
but it's just how much money okay
you know and then like
to support what to say what if that makes sense
is it possible for them just to like go
like for Taylor Swift to just
let's say with a small security detail but like

(01:05:40):
just go off playing guitar
she's pulling out like she's the president
yes so famous and it's just like an army
like she's supporting an army basically but
why was it just okay when we were kids to just
for someone just to go up with a guitar and play
unplugged right
and just be like that's it like
I didn't need to get paid that much money

(01:06:01):
it's just me and my guitar here
let's go like that just seemed fine when we were kids
but now it's like
everything's so overproduced that you
are almost strapped
like you need to like do these things to
to like break even right
to go back to your initial point why not do it for free
yeah I think that's a fair point

(01:06:22):
but but also at the same time as well like
there's a real
there's a real danger
that artists constantly work for free
because
the truth is like quite often as well
people have an expectation
on an artist to work for free
whereas like let's say I was a plumber
and your pipe burst and you called me up and said David

(01:06:43):
would you come and fix my pipe or whatever
I'd come and do it because you're my mate
but you wouldn't think of me doing it for free
you'd insist on me paying for my labor
and you know it would be that awkward conversation
well I know I'm your mate
I don't want to charge you too much and blah blah blah
but I think art is very often seen as something that
you should be entitled to for free
and a lot of artists really struggle to

(01:07:05):
justify a charge for things
particularly if it's something that like for instance
like
like I'll go back to poetry
like it's you know it's 10 lines long
you know why should you be paid for that kind of thing
oh you're meant to be some left wing poet right
what do you mean you're charging you know
so there is that space as well where
and I think in the

(01:07:25):
in the Taylor Swift Donald Trump example here
like for instance like
if she did it
it'd be really inconsistent
but also you know
if you were smart about you just say I'm doing it
but it's just
so that I can donate all the money to a charity
that I care about or something
I'm doing it to raise awareness or
something like that
she'd still lose

(01:07:46):
I know she would
I know but we're talking hypothetical right
this is what right
this is why we're gonna
this podcast is gonna go viral after it was
talking about how Taylor Swift supported Donald Trump
and for all the
all the Taylor Swift fans are gonna come for us
that's what's gonna happen
50 cent actually did get offered
I'm pretty sure I saw this somewhere
but he talked about it

(01:08:06):
he's like I got offered like
a couple million dollars to perform
at a Donald Trump rally
and you wouldn't do it
I don't want to do it not because I it's just like
when it comes to politics religion and something else
it's like I'm just I don't I don't get into it
money is not that important
respect for 50 cents right
I think
our problem is when you have fuck you money

(01:08:29):
and you don't say fuck you right like
at some what's the point of having that money
like you should stand up
the people that have the ability to have integrity
should have integrity
but they don't because they're still
kind of in the game
like you said before
maybe they are paying for their last album right

(01:08:49):
like all of that stuff is just like this
debt that's like hanging you right
and so you can't say fuck you
but at some point
when you're you're making so much
you still can't like stand up and be like no
I don't really believe that like
wait
yeah it's tough one in it like there are

(01:09:11):
there are so many things sort of
wrong with the world and going on
and there's like
you've sort of
sometimes it's almost like is it down to me to say or
would I do I know everything
can I be the best person to say it
and then there's
there's other times as well where you're just like
almost like afraid to say it
you know like to quote somebody

(01:09:33):
somebody who said something that
sort of resonated with me
they said I won't say who it was
who said it because I can't remember
but they basically said
what's the point of freedom of speech
if you can't call a genocide a genocide yeah
um you
know and I'm not I'll just leave that hanging there
yeah as a as a sort of meditation

(01:09:55):
sure on the way that things can be you know
if there are things going on in the world that are so
obviously
a certain way
you know yeah
like but you can't
you don't feel like the one to speak out
or you can't be or
you know there's all of these things where
if you disagree with something
all of a sudden you're a bad person
yeah it's like

(01:10:16):
you know a lot of people
aren't going to put their head above the parapet
and
a lot of the people who are at the very top are there
because they are relatively popular
and how do you become popular by basically
being the vessel into what the majority pours their
thoughts ambitions that perfectionists performers
you know it's hot I imagine yeah you know

(01:10:39):
I
have really felt that actually here in China
I was originally going to do a video
Jono was not really gonna get this but
there
I was going to do a video with a lot of the magic
the gathering players
and to ask them
three things that they would do to change the game

(01:11:00):
to make it better right
any three things that you want make make three wishes
and I went to players I went to store owners
and a lot of the store owners wouldn't say it
yeah
they were just like no
I sell this product if I say that the product has

(01:11:21):
it's just wishes that you want
but they won't say anything
they're just like I can't
and you can't even film this in my store
please leave
and I was like I can't believe this is happening
and there were players that were also like
who am I like who am I to say
they were just like my voice doesn't mean anything

(01:11:41):
like even if I go and I
you know I record this 30 second thing
it's not gonna reach the powers that be
so why even bother do it
and
there's so many of those voices where they're just like
I feel hopeless I'm powerless
I'm just not gonna do it it doesn't why potentially

(01:12:04):
that small potential that I might get yelled at
why bother
and to bring it back to topic as well and
not to criticize these people
because it's totally valid
but isn't this a form of selling out as well
like this kind of
like
I believe something

(01:12:24):
but I'm not willing to speak up because
it might make me look bad
sure you know like I felt I felt the situation
this last couple of years
where I don't really understand
trans politics
yeah I understand that I'm
utterly supportive of trans people
but there have been times where I have just not
stood up or spoken out

(01:12:45):
when somebody has said something that's a bit
you know not transphobic but
dismissive or whatever
I've just like you know I did all of the
LGBT politics stuff when I was a kid at uni
and I really pushed for that
and I really cared about it
and now I'm sort of old and grumpy and
like I know where I sail
it's not my point to chase

(01:13:06):
and then
like a month or two ago
trans rights took a real hit in the UK with the
with the Supreme Court decision
and all of a sudden
I felt incredibly guilty because even though
I my little opinion in Shanghai shapes nothing
I had
because I've got other things going on in my life
I had not stood up for it and told people off

(01:13:29):
and actually when I have stood up for gay rights
I've pissed people off recently
like you know
people have
been upset because I've called them on stuff
and I've sort of ruined the vibe
yeah and
you know I mean and it's sort of a
like it's hard like
you feel like you've betrayed yourself in a way
and that that for me is what selling out is like

(01:13:50):
the moment where you believe something
but you're not willing to speak up
you've got to check yourself
I think
because you'll only feel really guilty afterwards
or at least I will
and I will I sort of reflect on that and try to
improve on a personal level
yeah and
because I think there's always you know
you never know when it's gonna be
your turn next like after they after they come for

(01:14:13):
the trans people they'll come for the gays
you know that will happen again as it has in history
we need to learn from these things
so anyway those are my meditation
sorry this is totally off beats but yeah
I'm about to end it you have anything else to say
I don't know man this podcast is sponsored
by Nord VPN

(01:14:35):
I think in China
it's very hard because again
like my story was about being here in China and
it's common to like
stay with like the pack
so very often people the cultures is different right
I think it's also probably harder to make music that is

(01:14:59):
not mainstream here
just because it's right
not culturally
I guess cool to be unique
I also think that
I'm in the most unserious generation of all time
oh yeah
now I don't think people take anything serious anymore
you guys do kind of take it serious
they do do but they kind of don't you know I mean hard

(01:15:22):
like have you seen like have you seen Drake
I don't know if you followed Drake on the net
but he's like he's sponsored by a steak
like steak calm really
and then he makes like
jokes about how he sponsored by state
it's like a it's like funny I don't know yeah
I just think everything is like kind of unserious
unserious to a point because of people's ADHD people
get mad about something and then
you know an hour later they're like

(01:15:42):
I'm mad about something else
yeah
so maybe everything just disappears too quickly
so yeah you
but also the internet's forever like that
although it's forgotten about
it'll get dug up way later and then still be there
and so people still have to be kind of careful

(01:16:04):
right
right like I'm sure if I'm ever famous God forbid
and some people through your past
yeah
whatever the
however many episodes that this will eventually have
I'm sure I've said something terrible
and someone's just gonna dig that up and be like
Arthur you were whatever
hey man yeah
remember when you had Jono on

(01:16:24):
and Jono did something crazy whatever
like you never know
and that always is gonna
don't know this is always gonna be there
right that that still kind of
scares me but do you think that you should like
as a human you're not perfect anyway yeah
you should be unfiltered and honest
and therefore it's like people can learn from you
you can learn from yourself yeah

(01:16:46):
I mean I think I'm just caught
from the first episode till like now
I've changed a ton
like I've changed my viewpoint on a ton of things
it's just kind of you growing with
your I guess your media right right
the same way that Taylor has
grown into the pop star she is right

(01:17:06):
like people change and you can
let's do it in the beginning
and then maybe quit and then come back or whatever
like who knows
right right
I don't know if that's selling out or not
it's just changing with the times
I think Taylor Swift is like so
rich and famous now that she's like
selling out is like beneath her now
oh yeah
you know what I mean

(01:17:26):
I think that she's so rich now
I mean maybe she just doesn't want to make
country music anymore
right
you know like and and that's cool
didn't she make a country album with them
Bonneville or something
she made
a couple
songs yeah
but not like a whole album
can I tell you a funny story like last year so
so last year there was like a big

(01:17:48):
like corporations were
going at each other TikTok
and universal were going at each other
last year and basically TikTok was saying
we don't want to pay you
and the universal was saying hey man
we want to get paid for like the use of our work right
so essentially like if you were assigned to universal
like let's say
I wrote a song for you and you're releasing artist

(01:18:09):
and I had 1% of the song and you're not on universal
your song would be taken down from TikTok
and basically you know the music industry
for the last couple years
everything is based off TikTok right yeah
so these people are like what the fuck
like my songs been taken down from TikTok
I need to promote my songs
because this is like the medium for yeah
and uh and Taylor Swift sign
has been with universal for forever

(01:18:30):
forever right
and she just went to universal and said nope
you know take my music down
so everyone like
the biggest artist in the world
had their music taken down
universal not her
she just basically went to universal and said
no you need me I don't need you yeah
you know I don't know
that's gangster that's like the opposite of selling out
that's when you're so far ahead on the corporation

(01:18:51):
like you know
that she bullies the bullies the corporation
yes she bullies
I respect that she's a gangster you know
yeah
see I would say it as
as maybe selling out in a way because unless
does she really believe that
artists shouldn't be paid for their work
that's on a platform
is that what she's standing for though

(01:19:12):
she's just saying like because you know
it's like not up to the artist
it's up to universal right for
at the time universal was trying to get a better deal
I say okay
and so therefore
they pulled everything as like a bargaining move
and basically
it's like imagine if two countries have a tariff war
or something
and the company just comes in and just says
never happened
no no not on mine

(01:19:33):
not not I'm not I'm not participating in this
yeah you know I mean
they're like but your country is and you're like nope
I'm not
so so Taylor Swift in this is sort of like the
the iPhone replacement parts
that are exempt from the tariff
I'm Taylor Swift
it's like
all the Drakes and stuff probably were taken down
yeah crazy it was crazy

(01:19:54):
wow you know I did not know about that
yeah she's crazy
she's I mean she's amazing
let's be honest biggest pop star of our generation
like that's wild that she's done what she's done
yes
I'm sure she's also lost fans like me right like
I won't I won't listen to her music now right
no sure but I don't think she needs me to be fair

(01:20:15):
like she's got a ton of other fans
she's shilling
yeah she's doing great I'm sure
or maybe she has an even heavier burden on her
that we just don't know about
yeah I think she definitely does too
where it's like
if you have the 200 person umbrella under you
yeah
and a lot of responsibility
yeah you have to feed all these people yeah
yeah they all depend on her which is

(01:20:36):
I can't imagine that kind of responsibility
it's a lot of pressure
yeah the heavier burden is called Travis
whatever he's called
who is who she dating
the football
yeah I don't know I shouldn't know that
but I do I don't even know American football
all right I'm gonna call it
I'm really happy you guys came
I Learned a lot from you guys

(01:20:56):
thank you very much
and thank you for all whoever's listening bye
好了大家都好吗我有Jono和David
谢谢你能来
额
我们真的我真的很想让你们来因为
我想谈谈卖出去的事
因为这是一个术语
在谈话中随机出现
我意识到我已经很久没听到过了
所以让我们从你们自我介绍开始
你好，我是大卫，我是一个变节
我是大卫。我在上海住了一段时间了。
我是这里的教师培训师
但我也是个作家
我在英国出版诗集
在那里组织了很多文学作品
等等
嗯嗯
嗨我是Jono
我是艺术家制作人歌曲作者
我一生都在做音乐
一半是中国人，一半是新西兰人
是啊，很高兴来到这里。
谢谢。
Jono第一次上播客
我真的很高兴你大卫准时到了
我们谈论万智牌已经很久了
是的，我只是在想
我要开始介绍自己是个艺术家了
听起来真不错，我需要做更多，那太好了。
所以我想我开始和我的朋友谈论
网红达人空间
这就是我们谈论的地方
然后我意识到
所有这些有影响力的人都在卖东西
他们不在乎
那与他们无关
我称之为售罄。
突然间我就想
哦那可是我很久没听过的词了
那你们认为卖什么？
对我来说这有点违背了你自己的原则
比如如果你相信什么
然后突然之间
你在做违背原则的事
你在向自己妥协
为了某种无形的利益
那我认为在那一点上你是在出卖
我觉得就这么简单
我认为有些人
做一些我认为有点像
无耻的出卖行为
是的，那个。
他们不会想到会出卖自己
因为那是他们看待事物的方式
而对我来说，我永远不会这么做，是的
是呀
约翰？
我认为音乐就像一个学位
比如你卖了多少钱，因为要成为
有点成功
你有不同程度的东西
愿意做和
喜欢不愿意做变得更成功
但我同意你的观点，我认为这就像
你自己的原则，你对艺术的愿景，或者
就像如果你
如果你相信某件事，然后你走了
反对它销售产品
我相信那可能是
销售理念
定义定义我想嗯
我记得我第一次处理它是
我记得见过科特·柯本
在我想说滚石的封面上
他有一件T恤，上面写着
公司杂志还是狗屎
或者类似的东西
那些线上的东西
他上了一家企业杂志的封面
滚石杂志或者别的什么时尚杂志
我出现在一本大杂志和他的衬衫上
我就像
这个卖完了吗？
就像你得到报酬一样
要做到这一点，你知道拍照。
你还在反抗
我敢肯定他很挣扎
就像涅槃是如此巨大，他不得不与之斗争
"出卖"
我觉得这就像你把科特当成他的孩子一样
他谈到的最后一次采访之一
做所有这些商业事情的困境
他不一定喜欢的东西
不想做
是啊但他就像
每年都像你变得那么大
人们以如此多的诉讼来追捕你
你必须基本上
就像这张专辑基本上一样
为上一张专辑的诉讼买单
所以它就变成了一个循环
好吧我们得再做一张专辑基本上覆盖
你知道的
去年是这个这个这个还有这个疯狂
他发现这真的很难，因为他就像
我只是在写歌
我想对我的粉丝很酷，但是
就像公司关系和一堆
比如他们也必须照顾的人
责任重大
当你像艺术家一样大的时候，对吧？
所以喜欢就变得棘手了
你知道我不想拍这个杂志
哦，等等，但你知道如果你想，你必须这么做。
对，能够继续销售音乐之类的东西。
就像你之前说的那样
这就像一个程度的问题
喜欢
你愿意卖多少钱？
就像黑白一样
我认为音乐就像是不同的
因为技术变化太大了
在过去的几百年里
因为录制音乐只有100年的历史
是的，我觉得在广播中，人们非常喜欢
我们得让我们的歌和电台合拍
是啊现在TikTok对
这只是人们写作的不同时期
音乐因技术而异
然后我想这就是你怎么做的
比如如果你有一个真正的
比如如果你有一首你喜欢的歌
为了你自己，然后是的
然后有人来了，就像
也许在无线电区
嘿，你能剪掉最后一节吗？
是的，你不愿意这么做。
然后你会喜欢
如果你愿意这么做
那你就是在卖一个
你自己的一部分，以便
我不知道如何确定合适
是呀
是呀
弗雷迪·摩克瑞就是其中之一
受到称赞，不是吗？
是的，他们真的很想改变波西米亚狂想曲。
意义重大
你怎么能有这首七分钟的歌
从这个部分到这个部分，是的
我认为在电影中
上面写着他怎么拒绝
这是不是被誉为
你信任艺术家
他们最清楚的是
肮脏的制片人
是的，在后台。
你必须处理那个吗？
你可能不知道
在诗歌中，是的
不完全是
这不是一个
有一种东西叫做诗意的许可！
你可以做任何你想做的事
老实说，诗歌中有一些元素
它在哪里存在
比如
如果你想出版
由一个更大的出版商
比如说企鹅或者费伯
你得迎合
更广泛的诗歌阅读观众
如果我诚实的话，主要是年龄更大，更白，所以
就像你给他们寄手稿一样
也许你的一些
你的诗可能是
那些人想读的那种诗
一些更前卫的诗歌可能是
更像是独立出版社，所以
几年前在英国
好几年前我办了一个音乐节
在利兹，这是我在英格兰北部的大学城
它被称为Lipfest
利兹独立诗歌出版社节
这背后的想法是
我们会邀请所有的媒体
还有来自出版社的诗人
主流
他们来了，他们
比如卖他们的独立书籍
他们会有读数之类的东西
我们会吸引
我们的想法是吸引人们来
并阅读一些东西
或者捡一些他们从未听说过的东西
也许还能开阔他们的视野
这真的很有效。
人们对它真的很有兴趣
因为人们喜欢
哦天哪如果我走进书店
我找不到这些书
你知道诗歌是很小众的东西
所以真的很不错
我们也是在没有任何政府资助的情况下做到的。
这几乎是个奇迹
是啊我们没有我是说
我得了带状疱疹
压力太大了
这样做是
我们太疲惫了
我和我的朋友戴夫，他是一个加拿大人。
我们有这种
名为Chatman和稻草人的人造公司
我们把这一切都放进去，只是一团糟。
他就会被裁掉
所以他有一些空闲时间和一些闲钱
不过这太棒了。
因为你刚刚能够把一些东西放在一起
那是真的
喜欢独一无二
个人
是的，做一些全新的事情，互相见面。
他们永远不会
那些书店不会存货的东西
我想把它和音乐联系起来，也许就像
似乎有
我不知道你会怎么想
但回到我的时代
和Jono比起来我和Arthur都老得可怕
你
你会有小乐队在小场地表演
是的，他们
你知道他们会在门口卖票
他们会有点喜欢
成为知道的人
那种
那些潮人会知道和听到的
是的，他们会这么想。
在MySpace上卖完了
就像他们不会上MySpace一样
因为他们不想报名
为了公司机器
是啊，而现在不管怎么做
你受欢迎还是不受欢迎
或者说，鲜为人知的冷门
嗯有这些巨大的
管理流媒体服务
你必须去的地方
就像我乐队里的弟弟们
嗯，他们被称为他们很聪明。
他们叫好男孩尼科
他为他们弹贝司
他们在他们在Spotify上
他们的新单曲有7,000次收听
真的真的很好是的太棒了
它们太棒了。
但他们在Spotify上
但他们只知道他们必须这样
因为你必须在那里
你要告诉我你不在Spotify上
不，他在Spotify上是黑人
那么现在是什么样子呢？
与音乐与
就像我们小时候一样，我觉得我们很多人
有点
在某些人看来是这样的
这就是酷的地方，这就是你知道的
好听
然后你让这些人
能告诉你什么是新音乐
现在我再也听不到了
这不一样
是的，我认为有音乐。
也许就像在那段时间里一样
我猜你们说的是
90年代2000年代时间
就像是不同的时间，对吧？
喜欢的时候
流媒体公司刚刚完全接管了
就像你看一场演出的门票销售一样
是的，就像在上面，有点像在上面
你很少看到你喜欢的艺术家
然后你会付钱，你知道的。
比如去某个地方看他们比赛的合理费用
你知道我的意思是是的
就像一个人马上就变大了
他们的票就像
立即200
300个赞
我在试着计算
但这就像
比以前贵了很多，可能是对的。
我想Kurt Cobain谈过这个
他就像麦当娜卖多少票
是呀
你知道我的意思是
但这只是一个不同的时代，对吧？
因为这就像
现在就像流媒体公司优先考虑人一样
就像一遍又一遍地听这首歌
不是人们去喜欢
我有20美元，我要买一张唱片。
我喜欢，是的，我有，你知道，我付15美元。
听尽可能多的音乐
对，技术不同。
这是一个不同的时代
还是有可能的但是
这很难，例如
我记得去看北极猴子花了五块钱
正当他们成名的时候
就像他们坚持他们的价格一样
但就像去年一样
你们可能都看到绿洲了
门票惨败
每个人都想去的那种交错定价
你排队的时间越长
票越贵
绿洲不需要你知道的钱
也不一定是他们
是的，钱就像票务大师
是啊是啊，但你还是会得到
节日里会有令人惊叹的阵容
而且价格相对公道
所以我特别想到比利时的
岩石矢量图
Pucker Pop Pucker Pops惊人
如果你有机会去那里
他们就像
这有点像在比利时
尤其是在夏天
有一种真正的节日文化，就像好吧
这周是爵士音乐节我们都要去
和
上次我查的时候
节日还是很实惠的
他们会得到一些令人惊叹的
就像我去Buckle Pop的时候一样
头条新闻是电台司令
大规模攻击和愚蠢的朋克
和疯狂
你知道那只是三个晚上
去那里多少钱？
我想它花了我大约50英镑。
那是周末的票，是的。
但我的意思是我们在谈论很久以前我们在谈论
天哪2005年什么的
我必须检查它们现在多少钱，但是是的。
我的朋友仍然每年都去，仍然认为这是
就像一个负担得起的
我是说我记得
我上一次去听大型音乐会是在上海
我看到泰勒·斯威夫特
对，我是她的超级粉丝，我是她开头的超级粉丝。
她职业生涯的开始她很棒
红色之旅是巨大的，但它也像
我想说大概几千元人民币吧
就这样进去太疯狂了
我就像小时候一样在想
门票8块10块
你可以去看看
像CBGBs这样的优秀艺术家或者像纽约这样的地方
去也不贵
现在好像有几百个了
我总是想知道那些钱去哪了
就像有一样，我知道有
你知道你必须支付的费用，比如
我只知道一个圈套和你的一切
你基本上是和军队一起旅行
如果你是泰勒·斯威夫特，对吧？
就像那是哪里
这算卖完吗？
你就像在抽你的
票价
并从你的粉丝那里赚钱
那算吗？
也许卖出去的方式是
例如在英国
当地政客
接受赠票
然后喷出拍手陷阱
泰勒·斯威夫特执行生成
当地收入
创造就业机会，增加经济收入
当你在那个球体里的时候
防弹少年团谈过了
被谈论
是他们为韩国赚的钱
在那一点上你是一个出口
你已经成为资本主义机器的一部分
刘海乔纳斯鼓你知道在那一点上
你做对了
但那是卖完了吗？
就像我想的那样
艺术和资本主义是两码事
它们就像两种哲学，如果有道理的话，对吧？
我认为人们喜欢这样是有原因的
当他们看到一个网红达人
试图向他们出售产品
它不像那样恶心
你最喜欢的艺术家就像
NordVPN或者你知道的想象一下
就像你最喜欢的艺术家卖给你一些你知道的
我不知道保险单对吧
但是如果是网红达人什么的
就像哦
是网红达人
因为我认为艺术有点像
它应该超越
就像艺术的全部意义应该是
它应该是很多关于
表达自己
当然那种事
你知道，但后来试图以此谋生
那你就得想办法喜欢
好吧我愿意这么做吗
还是我愿意做你知道我的意思
有程度
我在出卖我的一部分灵魂什么的
是呀
我我
仍然觉得自己是有影响力的人
这样做，它就像我一样卖完了。
感觉你就是这样
我不知道。
让我们说刀评论者或任何你评论技术的东西
然后你的报酬是
X公司写好评的东西
就像那是直接卖给我一样，对吧？
因为你是
我跟着你是因为你很诚实，对吧？
然后
如果你拿了钱却不告诉我
我觉得那是卖完了。
好像这对我来说很难。
好吧，但是在哪里？
学位在哪里？
有些人会喜欢
他只说了好话
他没说什么坏话
这被认为是出售吗？这被认为是公正的吗？
我不知道在哪里
为某些人切断那条线，对吗？
你知道，这就是原因。
我想这个词已经消失了
因为很多人会说
哦，好吧，我并没有真的卖完。
只是我需要我需要赚钱
肯定的
这是一种研磨文化开始发生
你会说已经有点了吗？
活在成为骗子的术语中
哦，我甚至不再听到shill了，你知道吗？
我愿意。
shill是卖东西的人
或者据我所知是某个闭嘴的人
卖他们不相信的东西的人
他们有点像公司的喉舌
对，是的，所以
我没听说过shill
公司主管以前就像
我好久没听到这个词了
已经有一段时间了
我不知道你是否喜欢
还是有人这么说
是的，是的，是的，我最近也看到了。
那个短语
我认为所有这些术语都消失了。
因为它太正常了
就像我看到的那样，你现在到处都能看到它
我想我们小时候
被称为出卖就像一个大的DIS
很疼是的
你认为人们会把
资本主义比以前更甚于艺术
是的，我100%愿意。
我想很难解开它
因为个人总是不同的，但是
我认为作为一个公正的整体，我可以代表英国发言
我不知道其他地方但是
我想我们肯定变得更保守了
在过去的20年里一般
所以现在的工党政府
在英国实施的是
在我脑海的右边
大卫·卡梅伦
乔治·奥斯本的保守党
我认为当你我认为右翼经常与
就像没有自信一样
说出你的道德价值观
还有你和那个
你知道的
在我看来，这些是你关心的事情，好吗？
也许我不公平，我确定
你知道而且说实话
许多保守派并不羞于分享他们的
他们经常谴责的道德价值观
like in like of like
我做了这个我相信它
比起钱我更相信这个
我想说这更像是左翼的事情
而不是右翼的东西
我同意。我是这么想的。
只是
一般地
我认为我认为仍然有一种渴望
反文化
但是太公司化了
就像我给你举一个愚蠢的例子一样
你不能走进商场
这些天没有看到一些愚蠢的
露营主题酒吧
是的，或者一个豪华区什么的，是的。
他们到处都是，去露营，去看大自然。
或者所有那些孩子
骑自行车出去了
你知道武汉附近，骑自行车出去
只是有一个真正的
渴望某种反文化
但是
它是如此
如此消毒，有点像
你知道人们不想去野营
变得泥泞
并体验事物
并进行艰难的对话
他们想去自拍
为了他们的Instagram提要
你知道看起来他们
在Allison Goldfrapp视频中
你知道他们不想
所以这很奇怪
这是一种反文化的想法
有点嬉皮士的生活方式，但只要
只要你戴的项链是爱马仕做的
或者对我来说很奇怪的东西
因为当这种情况开始发生时
这是什么时候开始发生的？
我确实记得我长大后
嘻哈就像反文化
和
你开始看到嘻哈歌手与品牌合作
然后我觉得这很奇怪
直到很久以后我才明白
我现在在想
他们现在都这样做就像
你知道蕾哈娜什么牌子的
它只是发生了
就像我说的那样
正常化，但它是什么时候开始发生的？
那就像有任何类似的想法一样
这是个好问题
我就知道
我的意思是
奥黛丽·赫本
在Tiffany吃早餐之类的
我知道那是
那是杜鲁门·卡波特的小说
她在扮演这个角色
但你知道
玛丽莲·梦露
扎扎·加博尔钻石是女孩最好的朋友等等
它一直都在那里
嗯哼
但也许就像星星本身并不如此
独立富裕
就像他们会依赖的那样
甲壳虫乐队依靠合同的付款
对吧
就像制片人是组织它的人一样
然而现在
也许吧
就像人们更意识到他们的
就像超级巨星更清楚
他们的个人品牌用引号表示
并拥有更多独立财富
和
我不知道我不知道什么时候开始的
但我也想说
我认为我们可能受到了影响
被自己在上海的存在蒙蔽了双眼
你在这里住了很长时间。
它是这样的
这是个快节奏竞争激烈的城市
甚至昆虫也在上面
你会你会阻止它
你不能在十字路口停下来
被几只蚊子咬了脚踝
太忙乱了
是的，有太多事情不断发生
每个人都认为这是一个资本主义城市
在极端情况下，每个人都在赚钱，每个人都有点
将自己与周围的人进行比较
在激烈的竞争中
当我回到英国
一个自英国脱欧以来停滞不前的国家
我回到我曾经住过的地方
那里的人不关心这个
如果他们要去听音乐
肯定是他们听说过的本地乐队
人们会写他们当地的歌
我以前住在一个小镇
每当我回到他们实际上禁止的地方，我都会去那里。
任何不是本地的东西
就像任何大型超市或大型连锁店一样
他们就是不允许
规划许可
因为有一种信仰
当地文化和当地生活，那太好了。
而伦敦则相反
伦敦就像请来投资你知道买
买下这座摩天大楼
但是普通人喜欢的平均值
在英国的一个小镇有点像
你知道他们不会
关心蕾哈娜的口红什么的
这与他们无关
他们不在乎，是的，但它在这里
你知道这就是一切
对方在做什么
我确实认为有一种真正的渴望
不同的东西
但这很难，而且
这有点像
我不知道这是否会提供编辑报价。
因为这将是一个政治问题
所以这可能无法进行编辑，但
在这里很难违背常规
是的，并说我想成为一个另类的人
我想违背别人告诉我的
我想开始一段全新的生活
你有危险
知道，我认为那是亚洲文化。
我认为整个亚洲
更适合文化
与美国相反
我们被教导你是独一无二的
你需要与众不同
所以这是一种完全不同的文化
所以我明白这里有很大的不同
你觉得这里的音乐场景怎么样？
就像我们有一个朋友Siyan
谁是非常独特的
是的，她和喜欢每个人都很不一样。
耶耶
我知道这是个好问题我觉得
我认为它在这里增长了很多。
我认为这是反文化的
我是说因为我没看到因为我们不在里面
我觉得这就像
地下说唱歌手之类的
是的，他们现在就像疯了一样，但是
我不知道。
就喜欢而言，这非常非常不同
音乐和艺术的基础设施是
这里完全不同
你怎么知道
就像艺术家一样
在中国要把他们的作品货币化并不容易
是的，但尤其是我有朋友这样做。
就像我已经做了1亿
中国5亿溪流
如果你看看版税声明
这就像非常令人沮丧
是的，这非常非常令人沮丧，就像呃，但是
但它是同时因此
像这里的许多艺术家一样，他们会努力寻找
你知道像俱乐部许可这样的代言节目
机会之类的东西
但这与
这与音乐货币化无关
这与货币化有关
音乐周围的一切
如果这对赚钱有意义的话
比如呢？
like like as in like音乐本身
艺术不是它是
让人们进门的方法
然后就像你卖给他们你的
你知道直播展示你的
直播产品
那很好
是的，产品尝试做一些产品的事情，比如
你知道就像一些
阿迪达斯竞选之类的东西
对，这就是我喜欢的地方
小红书喜欢赞助你知道的
是的，诸如此类的事情
是的，但这就是方法。
比如他们喜欢有人必须
你得把钱赚回来
好吧，你知道如果你要把
五十万人民币
一个项目，是的，或者其他什么。
你得想办法回到正轨
是啊所以
是的，我确实明白，就像我记得我们小时候一样
有些乐队只是在当地巡演
他们在当地进行了足够的巡回演出
不管它是从后面出来的你知道
就像几辆货车
或者那没关系，你知道，而且
这足以维持乐队的运转
现在我猜不是了
有艺术家
显然在美国，这就像销售一样
2000人容量
房间之类的
他们自己也没有赚到足够的钱
他们就像在巡演中输了一样
对，因为成本太高了。
还有介于两者之间的国家，是的
取决于合同
但还挺有趣的
就像我看了几个人的交易一样
这很有趣
所以发生了什么是我想知道的，因为
我有个朋友问我他说
他以为是脸书
他认为这是社交媒体
这曾经很酷
听说过你的乐队你的艺术
然后突然间它变了
他认为它在Facebook出现时发生了变化
不再是谁喜欢你的问题
而是你被喜欢了多少次，对吧？
就像它从质量变成了数量一样
喜欢
立刻就可以测量有多少人喜欢你
所以它并不关心谁喜欢你
只是有多少人
他马上就说
就在那时，它为他换了。
就像他现在就像爵士乐
上海的萨克斯手
他在纽约待了一阵子
他说，是的，只是现在不同了。
它曾经是
你知道的
这个电台DJ好像知道你或者这个很酷的人
你知道我猜
那些像小杂志一样的叫什么
他们会在纽约昏倒
认识很酷的新乐队
就像那些家伙认识你一样，这是一件很酷的事情
是的，时尚达人，是的
但现在只是你得到了多少赞
一切都是这样的
现在测量与
这些杂志都写了关于你的文章
这个电台放了你的歌
我会的。
除了那可能是
发生转变的点
以它被感知的方式，但我认为
不是贬低你的朋友，我永远爱你。
但是
我认为大多数艺术家
就像不会太在乎号码一样
如果他们没有卖完
如果他们相信工作并且喜欢
如果你尊敬的人真的喜欢你的作品
这意味着超过1000个赞。
是啊或者
如果有人有意义地回应
你制作的东西
那么对于艺术来说，普通艺术家
有诚信就会有更好的
我也有反应，我想我有更好的感觉。
就像没关系一样
比如说我的一首诗在网上疯传
呃，这可能不会发生，但假设它发生了。
就像它所做的非常不可能的情况一样
突然之间我得到了
一万个赞
我一点也不在乎那个
但是如果有人
我重视他的意见，并说我读了你的
最新的书，我喜欢这个。
这个太棒了
这意味着更确定
那可能
成为我想要的东西
继续工作就像
写作
它对个人有影响的地方
而不是
你知道我是那种
不知何故，现在更好了，因为我有10,000英镑。
喜欢这一件事你知道的
当然，假设有1000人喜欢
喜欢一个你真正尊敬的人
余额在哪里？
嗯，很不错。
是呀
但这是真的。
1对10,000是100,000吗？
就像在某个时候它有一个平衡，对吧？
这是你提出的一个很好的观点
来自你关心的人的认可
还有货币
艺术品权利价值
所以这有点像
我觉得两者都很重要
尤其是像我刚刚完成的那样
相册流程
是的，这有点像如果你花
你一两年的时间
就像把你自己的钱投入到这种事情上一样
有一部分就像
好吧，我希望它能做些什么。
我是说我希望它能有所回报
但你也知道
还有我也希望人们喜欢它
为了听对而听
当然
这也是其中之一
但是诗歌很难回答这个问题
因为艺术形式是最便宜的
你需要一支笔和一本书，还有一些痛苦，不是吗？
喜欢
而像音乐或艺术，物理艺术，是的
就像你必须购买材料一样
你必须你必须有设备
你必须投入时间和所有这些
所以这真的不一样
也许就像我不这么说一样
我不知道有多少诗人
虽然我会说你是个出卖自己的诗人
周围有很多这样的人
音乐家少数
但我想就像
回到你的观点关于一万个喜欢的人
比如人们喜欢多少次
我觉得
它也改变了人们消费艺术的方式
它得到了它，因为它就像
这有多少个数字的数字是
与直接相关
货币价值
对吧对吧
人们过去创作音乐就像我想创作一首歌
你可以去听它，你喜欢它
但现在就像我如何创作一首歌
循环它循环它一遍又一遍
你一直在听它
因为这就是你赚更多钱的方式
对，对，我不知道，只是格式不同。
是呀
做
也是
我们是否处于这样一个阶段
一首歌的收听量
影响人们批判性地看待它的方式
所以我想是的
我想人们也会厌倦这些东西
是呀
哦，我绝对会很快粘东西。
是呀
我猜
有这个Invis或者有这堵墙
喜欢
你不知道的地方
谁真正喜欢你的内容
好像你和这些人都不熟悉似的
但是有这么大的
就像你喜欢的金额一样
哦，我猜人们
居然这样做
但我不知道这些人是谁
就像我想如果是我
我是在播客中说的
那从来没有起飞过
但如果是一群人
开始喜欢我的东西
讨厌
好像我不喜欢这些人但是
成群结队的人进来喜欢它
我不知道我会看着自己说
我做的对吗？
喜欢
所有这些我讨厌的人
突然喜欢上我放出来的东西
好像我会有一点
自我反省，就像
我不认为我这样做是对的
但是因为有这堵墙
你不认识大多数人
就像点击你的东西一样
所以你就像
我只是假设这是引用大众的话，对吗？
然后你就像
好吧，那我就没意见了。
对，你和这些没有个人联系。
因为它是通过屏幕通过的
你知道这是通过Spotify，你只是
你会看到戏剧的数量增加了
是的，但你实际上不知道谁在听。
那个
这一直困扰着我
这是老鼠赛跑老兄
是的，这太疯狂了。
但就像我永远不会
我和你在一起，我认为有学位，对吧？
就像我认为如果一个艺术家在卖他自己的商品
酷
是啊没错
就像我认为如果你
如果Julius Black有T恤，我会100%购买。
有不同程度的
卖完了，是的。
你知道，但我想如果这是你的东西
就像你去了，你就像
我想把这些打印出来
T恤上有我的专辑封面
我突然想嘿NordVPN
我突然想他到底在干什么
我认为你所做的一切
对，当你只是销售时
其他人用一个术语先令别人的东西
是的，没错，我想还有下一个层次
例如产品或
或者你的作品中会出现一些东西
或者你会创造工作来委托
为了钱我
知道这已经过去了
例如
在英国有一点丑闻
在诗坛
几年前
其中一家银行
发布了一系列广告来宣传他们的银行
还有养老基金之类的
他们决定做一个非常可爱的东西。
让一大堆诗人写诗
这是多么伟大
投资养老金之类的
所以某些诗人
拿了钱就做了
虽然这些广告持续了一年
那些诗人有点
被严厉批评
委托生产这项工作
有点喜欢这种民间背景音乐
你知道的
我想它是用一个包在全国范围内调用的。
如果你这么做了
我会取笑你一辈子
是的，我会接受的，我做不到。
我没有被问到，所以你知道
但是如果有人问我，我会说
耶耶
问题是
但我以前做过佣金工作。
但总是为了我关心的事情
这就是道德原则的问题
你喜欢吗？例如，我确实喜欢。
一首诗给一个古老的历史悠久的房子
是的，在美国。
K就像国家信托财产
他们问我能不能为此写首诗
我做了，我很高兴这么做，是的。
嗯，我想我得到了微薄的报酬。
但你知道那是我的名字
我很乐意这么做
但是是的，如果我
如果麦当劳要我写一首诗
赞美汉堡并提供给我
实际上我要多少钱？
就像这是诗歌中罕见的问题一样
但我会卖完吗？
如果麦当劳要我写一首诗
你知道吗，这让我想起了对巨无霸的疯狂
你们看到了吗？
我喜欢大麦克斯
几年前马特·达蒙
四处走动
和所有喜欢的人一起发明东西
就像人们发明飞机一样
就像正确的财富偏爱大胆的加密货币
com
噢
兄弟，这是一个非常好的广告，伙计，制作得非常好。
哦耶你知道的
然后像2022年之后什么的
一切都完蛋了
是的，然后演员们都说
什么
我不知道我刚刚得到了什么报酬。
你什么意思？
但这就是它让我想起的东西，对吧？
就像你喜欢的艺术家一样
哦，那太好了，会打猎的。
是呀
他让我买密码，我应该去买密码。
是呀
但就像大卫说的，这总是会发生的。
就像我认为电影明星总是
就像广告一样
如果你小时候拍过广告
那就像
我们取笑的理由
你穿这个做什么
比如丽思花生酱饼干广告
好像那不酷一样
糟糕的糟糕的辣妹百事可乐歌曲
是啊然后呢
出于某种原因，现在就像每个人都在广告中一样
对，我想我想我希望的是什么样子
乐观
人们可以找到一种更可持续的方式
将他们的生活和艺术品货币化，是的，我已经
我这辈子有过像样的小溪
就像一对夫妇
几百万之类的
只是为了能够像一个
像一个合理的
就像职业生涯一样
就像你必须能够做喜欢
奥林匹亚级别的喜欢流右
所以所以人们必须
做所有这些像粉丝一样的额外事情
你知道这他妈是什么是的
你为什么要把这个产品卖给我？
我感觉就像
也许如果人们找到一种喜欢的方式
好吧我们要支持我们最喜欢的艺术家
通过支持他们的工作
这将是一个不同的故事
但现在不是这样了
现在就像一百万家公司
艺术家和消费者之间的关系
这就是为什么他们推出了像Patreon这样的东西
就像肯定的那样
对我来说，这真的很有意义。
就像我宁愿直接支持一样
我最喜欢的，你知道艺术家什么的。
直接给他们钱，而不是
通过其他媒介
对，你知道点击广告或其他任何东西。
它只是感觉
肮脏的权利你知道的
现在我觉得特别是你们这一代
我想这感觉很正常，对吧？
比如C m放了些东西
就像哦，她在一个广告中
我不知道什么健身品牌
哦，是的，我的朋友在里面。
给她一个赞给她一个点击权
它没有感觉
我认为对大多数人来说是肮脏的，对吧？
我和几个艺术家朋友谈过
这就像
你是艺人还是网红达人
因为有两件不同的事情，对吗？
我想是的还有人
不同，就像他们把它们放在一起一样
他们就像这是一回事
你是艺术家是脸
然后艺术就不重要了
这与like有关
你知道我的意思
我不同意
我是说不不不我也不同意
但是是的，就像营销一样。
人们基本上会来找你说
就像如果你如果你
大厂牌系统很疯狂
是啊，就像不是一样，基本上与此无关。
艺术不再是和喜欢的人有关了
一天TikTok18次就像嘿伙计们
是的，你知道的夏天的歌
哦哇
所以这完全就像人们签名一样
非常非常有趣
就像如果你去，如果你深入其中，是的
基本上就像
在过去的几年里，一切都崩溃了
喜欢
基本上交易是如何运作的流媒体交易是如何运作的
但更多的是与促销有关
一遍又一遍地推销自己，对吧？
是呀
你的意思是很少有
真正的艺术家了
这越来越难，越来越难
好吧是
更难让人喜欢
做某事只是为了
制作音乐
耶耶
先前的喜欢
就像人们优先考虑算法和
看音乐看音乐就像
内容或喜欢一个声音片段
而不是一件艺术品
是的，这对
就像人们不会真的听那么多
今天喜欢完整的专辑了。
越来越多，歌曲越来越短
随着注意力的持续减少
人们希望人们喜欢再次直播，你知道的。
是啊嗯
我
所以我在Spotify上听的音乐不多
不好意思。
我听播客，播客还很长
我对此没意见，我觉得
长表格的东西还在
但他们得到的报酬不同。
他们通过广告阅读之类的方式获得报酬
对吧对吧
他们在播客中间的地方
他们会说哦
北VPN
你杀了它你恨他们
他在争取一份合同
然后我们会看到几年后
这
这将是让你像病毒一样传播的原因。
和所有Nord VPN爱好者
而是喜欢
即使在播客中间
就像你会听他们读广告一样
和它
这么早让我心烦意乱
喜欢
这让我不想买你卖的任何东西。
因为你把我的内容减半了
我在听这个广告
当我不想听的时候
它是这样的
我内心的愤怒与你的联系
卖我的权利
我觉得人们不会
支持艺术
是的，我不知道。
我认为与此同时，人们确实支持艺术
还有人
像公司一样，让事情变得更加困难
让艺术家的人直接去找消费者
嗯嗯
如果这有意义的话
但我的意思是Spotify非常直接
是的，有多直接？
不是我不想说好吧我懂你
我很乐意为此说Spotify的坏话
所以
艺术家从Spotify获得的报酬是
非常非常低
当然
大多数中国流行音乐都是一样的
是的，算法工作的方式有点
它会区分优先级，为你推荐东西。
它有点带走了
你以前得出去找音乐
你知道识别有点像
你走进一家唱片店，那里会有
喜欢音乐片段
你可能会拿起一个你以前没听过的。
你可能会问后面的人
是的，穿上它，让你听听。
他们很酷，这是一种社交体验
所有这些，而现在
你登录Spotify，这有点像什么是热门的
你会知道你听谁的
或者推荐类似的东西
但播放列表通常会循环回到
特定的艺术家
就像那也是一个功能
是呀
给我带来了我从未听过的新音乐
是呀
对，我们在来这里的路上谈过了。
我听了很多流行朋克，比如
90年代和2000年代
还有一个新乐队悖论
我不知道你是否听说过他们
他们是他们是优秀的
和
它不知从哪里冒出来的，突然间我想
哦这就像
2025做
1990年代流行朋克这太棒了
不，我不是想说这很糟糕，这是不同的，好吧。
但你必须喜欢
了解如何推动喜欢
例如
就像英国的图表现在是由流媒体决定的
教训而不是
它不是创纪录的销售，而是在流媒体课程上
如果你有像Spotify这样的东西
那是推荐你听的东西。
它在操纵图表
是的，我明白了。
但是你明白我的意思了吗？
同时
就像你最后一次去是什么时候
买了一个物理
是的，不，我同意。
但如果我们说的只是
就事情的变化而言
这是一个变化，对吧？
就像现在的感觉一样，例如为了像
在你能拿出一张唱片之前
然后记录说我不知道
银，然后他们制造更多
然后它出现在更多的商店里
然而现在
基本上你只需要说服Spotify播放它
是的，这是一种完全不同的机制
真正取得成功
是的，在你卖唱片之前
赚大钱
而在Spotify上
你永远也赚不到那么多版税
听
这取决于你流了多少。
是啊，就像是喜欢一样。
像Spotify一样的YouTube Spotify仍然是
就像没事一样
就像我一样，你知道你可以，你可以赚很多钱。
但这取决于每月多少次
你有权利的听众
但同时也说有
你知道就像
你说的是算法发现程序
是的，所以现在很多时候
要小心，但好像我不在乎
这就像
你可以通过分发商
不管你和谁在一起
不管你是喜欢
华纳环球
很多这样的东西
唱片公司正在与流媒体公司进行交易
是的，说你你推动艺术家更多的发现
当然，然后事情是这样的
当Spotify向某个人推送时
那些溪流
Spotify拿走一部分
如果有意义的话
我想这是大多数平台
是的，但他们这样做是为了喜欢
就像现在他们只是
我看去年有一个点
你知道像塞布丽娜·卡彭特这样的地方
耶耶
所以有一点就像
去年你可以穿得像
Spotify播放列表，有五首金属歌曲
是的，她会的。
还是会在某个时候出现
因为他们基本上只是说
我们会付你很多钱
是呀
能够把这个放在人们面前
对，这只是其中的一部分
机器的一部分对吧
就像一旦你成为那个艺术家
谁在上面
你知道的，是的，旋转一直在滚动
只是一直在滚动
说说你喜欢Sabrina Carter什么
我没听说过卡彭特
我好久没听到有人叫它浓缩咖啡了
所以现在我们有了
我们一直被教导
现在是浓缩咖啡不是浓缩咖啡
我很久没听过浓缩咖啡这个词了
我有个问题要问你们去问吧
你们有过这样的经历吗？
艺术家或你真正喜欢的人
你喜欢支持
在他们真正成功之前
你就像是的就像
我喜欢寻找小秘密
然后好吧
就像我们的小秘密，然后他们变成了超级超级
奥运冠军你就像泰勒·斯威夫特
操那家伙
或者你知道我的意思
伙计Taylor Swift我听着我有
她真是个流氓
我有她第一张专辑的签名本
太疯狂了。
我有一张亲笔签名的
这里的某处
我一会儿给你看
我爱泰勒·斯威夫特
当她发行前两张专辑时
我就像神圣的狗屎
她是这样的
奇怪的有点像书呆子女孩那种
只是得到了我喜欢的青少年焦虑
她现在是世界上最伟大的艺术家
是的，我不能听她的任何新音乐，对吗？
对我来说1989
虽然这可能是她最好的专辑之一
好吧，让我们卖掉那张专辑
对我来说，我听不到我尝试过的那张专辑。
我只是说不，她以前的音乐更好。
我对此没意见，在某种程度上，我就像
我很高兴我们在一起的时光
这三张专辑
就像我喜欢你的三张专辑一样
我对我们的
路径有点分道扬镳，对吧？
感觉就像分手一样
我没意见。
我就像你走了你的路
我去找别的音乐
这有点符合我的口味
没有不好的感觉，对吧？
但确实感觉她卖完了。
她不再创作我喜欢的音乐了
所以也许有点不好的感觉，对吧？
因为我认为从艺术家的角度来看
有两件事是对的
我认为像泰勒·斯威夫特这样的人
她仍然会做她当时想做的
但她也知道有责任
就像回到Kurt Cobain的事情一样，对吧？
我现在制作这张专辑是为了支付最后一张专辑的费用
是的，我需要能够承受的损失。
我有一队人
我的伞下大概有100个人
200个人对吧
所以这里有两个大脑
当你在创造东西的时候
然后你就会想
哦，我的核心粉丝是什么样的？
哦，我们如何让这些新类型的人进来？
是的，它变成了一个整体
但还是
我认为泰勒·斯威夫特仍然是
我想创造对我诚实的东西
是啊是啊是啊当然
同时注意所有其他事情
嗯···
你呢？
你觉得自己像个艺术家吗？
感觉卖完了
你不再胡闹，你只是觉得
我再也听不下去了
太安静了，我不知道，也许就像我年轻的时候一样。
你真的喜欢Ed Sharon的第一张唱片吗
就像这孩子是一个伴侣一样
你知道这家伙很棒
他就像一个红发男人
原声吉他
然后他就开始做雷鬼音乐
我想这他妈的是什么？
你知道我的意思
就像你试图
这太明显了，你只是想
这个市场和这个市场
但同时我也有点尊重它
对吧
就像那条线在哪里，你就像
这家伙在尝试新东西
我尊重你尝试新的东西
是的，但你也有点背叛了我的
我对你的想象，只有我吗？
对吗？你不是真的卖完了吗？
你还是忠于自己
但对我来说，你的形象
我永远不想改变
对我来说是一个叫Regina Specter的歌手
好吧，我仍然非常喜欢谁？
但我只是觉得
就像我小时候和Regina Specter的经历一样
就像一个18岁的学生
通过口口相传听说她
通过一个大学朋友说
你听过这张专辑吗
然后我去找到了它
听了
完全爱上了这张专辑
叫做苏联基奇
以及音乐的质量
喜欢
她显然没有多少钱制作
她基本上是她在弹钢琴
其中一首歌就像大提琴一样
它被剥去了很多东西。
然后
她来英国旅游
我去了第一场演唱会
她有，我只是被迷住了
利兹一个叫驾驶舱的地方
我觉得她绝对令人吃惊
然后我买了票去看她的其他演出
是呀
在英国各地巡回演出
我得继续见她
她太迷人了
她是如此惊人的艺术家
她开始认出我
她和你一样
在其中一首歌中，她停下来，走向你
你来听我所有的音乐会
对不起我真的很喜欢你的音乐
这真的很酷
几年后她带出了
就像渐渐地她变得越来越受欢迎一样
然后几年后
她又出了一张专辑
但突然之间
因为她的曝光度，她有更多的钱
她有更多
她可以用它做更多的野心
她推出了下一张专辑
这被称为开始希望
这是另一张很棒的专辑
但它丢失了一些东西
是什么让她与众不同，几乎是这样的
安静的私人关系
更亲密
当知道这个人的人越来越少时
以及产生它的质量的音乐
是给那个小团体的
因为它只和一小群人有联系
然而这张新专辑
好像它有更广泛的吸引力
它开始像HMV一样出现
就像英国的主流唱片店一样
人们开始听说它
你会进入Top Man
顶级商店，会有一首Regina Spektor的歌
就像一个新的选择
现在，就像啊，就像
有些东西丢失了，因为
你的个人
和这个人的某种想象中的关系
也不是说她出卖了自己的原则
或者任何她可能
只是有更多的钱
做更多她想做的事
并尝试新事物
是的，我仍然很喜欢它。
但我不像以前那样喜欢她
就像你知道的
现在感觉就像我去听她的音乐会
那将是一个竞技场，是的，或者一场非常大的表演。
而我在第一排，我是一个喜欢
50个人耶
那是那种
这里也融合了嬉皮士文化
不是你想
你想试试别人不知道的东西
还因为
如果你很有眼光，你会的
你会发现你喜欢的东西
有点小众
在某种程度上
你觉得这感觉就像
更早的时候
当项目更分散或更小时
就像哦这是我的
感觉就像一个朋友什么的
这感觉
就像脱下来的时候噱头少了一样
对吧就像
你所拥有的只是
你正在与之交流的非常简单的材料
如果你能喜欢
如果你能用这些裸露的材料做些什么
没有任何花哨的东西
只是这就是我
这就是我想传达的
我觉得更多
比方说，它对我更有吸引力
我想这就是为什么很多人
就像早期的工作一样
得到人们是的
更大的规模
他和她谈过了
就像酷玩乐队一样
是啊就像他们的前两张专辑一样
在我看来非常好
是的，然后是的
但让我把更多的衣服脱了。
然后后面的东西是
你知道这主要是
是啊，这是一块相当不错的体育场石头。
你知道你已经从一个小乐队
来自苏格兰
体育场摇滚上满了
你知道就像
对我来说
我总是喜欢那种安静的东西
你知道的
是的，这就是吸引我去罗根的原因。
当我第一次听他的时候
他只是在他的网络摄像头上做DMT
是呀
但只有他和红色乐队像网络摄像头一样
就像他们面前的笔记本电脑一样
这就是他们所做的一切
我想这很酷，你知道，现在
我得听听左边的声音
是的，那个
内容不同，我不喜欢。
我确实觉得他为了喜欢Spotify而出卖了自己
他的内容已经改变了
但是
格式还是有点相似
格式仍然只是几个人
更高级的麦克风
但只是几个人在麦克风上录音
一次谈话
这就是为什么我这样做仍然是对的
因为这很有趣，就像享受这是
有点像我的社交
对我和我的很多朋友来说是时候了，对吧？
就像我仍然喜欢这个一样，但是
钱什么时候会像
把你带到一个可能的方向
你本来就不对
他有更多的阴谋，他有更多的阴谋
有点奇怪
想法和现在
他不再谈论那些事了
他已经不再吸引那些观众了
对吧
确实困扰着我，嗯
他从来都不是我听的人
我想主要是因为当我意识到他的时候
或者意识到他是播客
就像它总是非常明亮
派对空间是的
几乎有点像你知道的
你遇见他的时候太晚了
对我来说，他只是
他只是经常被引用
被我并不特别喜欢的人
就像哦，好吧，他是这么说的。
通常是有点刻薄的东西
我是在告诉你
回到过去
就这样，我只听了这些。
我可以听他说
几个小时，然后把它放在上面。
这里还有一个有趣的观点
想的就像
你知道有一段时间他被取消了
疯狂耶
你认为取消文化已经完全
在很多方面改变了艺术
或者像人们喜欢艺术家一样思考
如果你以前想过艺术家
他们更疯狂
对涅槃或其他正确的事情更加傲慢
而现在你不能
你知道像《别介意》这样的专辑
我不认为你不可能
我不这么认为。
是的，我不这么认为，是的。
但我认为你能做到，只是不会起飞。
是的，就像一个不同的时代
但我认为
与你所说的有很大关系
它背后的机器不会只是不推动它
好吧，那么你如何接触到所有这些人？
没有机器
就像你要做更多的本地表演一样
对然后
你仍然需要机器来把它变大。
放大你的权利
所以就州文化而言，我发现
我确实觉得这很奇怪，而且是一件很有可塑性的事情。
我认为更广泛的文化战争某种程度上被吸收了
这变得有点奇怪，所以
我能想到的一个例子是嗯
最近我很喜欢的一个艺术家叫Rashin Murphy
她以前在英国一个叫Maloko的乐队里
有点像90年代的舞蹈
她做了，现在是时候了，诸如此类的事情。
而且她呃她很棒
不管怎样，她带了一张专辑。
几年前叫Hip Parade
和
与德国舞蹈制作人DJ Coz合作
因为K O Z E和之前的专辑一样
万众期待
她没带
任何有一段时间的东西
那有什么好处吗？
他被认为是一位优秀的艺术家
拉辛·墨菲也在某种程度上塑造了她的职业生涯
以Lady Gaga的方式
就像她一直喜欢时尚一样
她一直是个同性恋偶像
就在推出专辑之前，她
说了些什么
这对跨性别社区来说非常无礼
她说她不确定孩子们
嗯，在他们成年之前进行激素治疗
她担心神秘的力量
嗯塑造跨身份好吧
如你所知，这是一个非常
一个非常政治化的问题
双方都有很多争论
你知道我们不需要讨论所有这些。
但结果是
有点像
搁置了专辑继续
但是
它并没有获得商业上的成功
人们期待着
因为人们不知道该如何反应
特别是她的评论
就像她的许多粉丝来自同性恋社区一样
然后
她说出了一些非常仇视变性的东西
可能是这样，就像她的粉丝感到被背叛了一样
是的，她的粉丝喜欢她，她道歉了。
当她得到最初的反应时
我相信她已经道歉了
我认为对一些人来说，这就是她的目的。
他们说不，我再也不会听她的了。
我完成了，但是是的。
你知道她说这是背叛
所以我确实认为它会对
如果你这么说，你有多可口
如果你说错了话
但是人们经常
等着看风向
吹嘘正确的事情
比如你还记得什么时候吗？
威尔·史密斯扇克里斯·罗斯耳光的时候
你还记得后一两天吗？
没有人真的知道该说什么
真的吗？是的，我的很多朋友都喜欢这太疯狂了。
我就知道
但两边都有你，是的
唐格，但我就像哦，那很有趣吗？那很糟糕吗？
克里斯·洛克出问题了吗？
威尔·史密斯出局了吗？
有很多种
我知道我记得当时
当时没有明确的立场可以接受
现在有吗？
我认为还没有明确的立场
我觉得
我认为这不仅是一件坏事
有将军
可能很糟糕
但当时它是
你知道它被视为这样
人们不知道如何回应
或者感觉就像，有时我想
控制台文化
它可以有点像人们会
看看风往哪个方向吹
然后什么时候
某种程度上是文化决定的
然后他们会遵循
是的，你知道就像
不幸的是
非常不幸的是，就像跨性别权利已经成为
就像政治足球一样
在某种程度上，你知道你会得到像J K这样的人。
罗琳假扮成一个男人
卖更多的书
给自己起名叫罗伯特·加尔布雷斯
这样她就有更多的侦探小说了
关于那个
我不反对不存在的想法
你出生的身体
并在英国有大量的使用和影响
从字面上看，女人是什么的法律定义
还有文化战争之类的东西
以及它如何影响人们讨论的方式
我认为人们消费的方式更广泛
所以你确实认为它
取消文化会影响人们如何创造艺术
我认为这会影响人们如何消费它
因此它可能会影响人们创造它的方式
是啊潜在的
你写歌的时候有没有想过
呃我
认为艺术家有时肯定会喜欢
他们做东西的时候有时会退缩
是啊，取决于
你知道的
我真正考虑的一件事是卖完。
在某些方面，当我看到喜欢
艺术家在政治集会上表演
哦是啊那种事
尤其是如果他们得到了很多钱
做这件事我觉得有点
就像令人厌恶一样
和马特·达蒙一样
加密货币上的马特·达蒙
是的，财富青睐大胆的加密com
就像什么
你只是让你的粉丝赌对了
或者政治上的正确
就像你是个艺术家
这很奇怪
你知道，但是艺术家总是有点
有点政治权利
我同意。我认为这很好。
但我认为当你拿钱的时候
是啊支持某人
这有点这有点不一样
当你拿钱然后在集会上表演的时候
我这样做了，它也会在我嘴里留下不好的味道。
我有点
老实说，我不确定我是否同意这个。
只是因为我在顶部的评论是什么？
如果它与你自己的信仰一致，比如
例如，我不认为
少的国民
支持奥巴马，为奥巴马唱歌，好吗？
嗯，因为它似乎与
主唱的信仰和奥巴马的主张
我觉得我觉得没问题
我想问题是
如果你在做，但你并不真的相信
但你拿了钱就像
你知道如果你是如果你是
如果你不站出来支持某人
比如泰勒·斯威夫特为特朗普表演
是呀
假设我们在一个虚构的宇宙中
假设那发生了
作为一个明显的例子
绝对是因为这将非常清楚
就像她以前说过他坏话一样
这将是一种非常明显的影响
他们的品牌是他们被感知的方式，但是
这是我的选择。
如果我支持谁如果我支持Jono
我愿意免费做。
是的，就像我绝不会像
嗯我真的很支持这个人
他们做得很好
我要我要免费做我要我
很好地支持某某
但是他们需要它，因为他们是我的朋友。
他们在做我相信的事
我只是免费做
如果我得到了报酬
似乎那笔钱正在平衡我的
完整性
再拿一分试试
所以拿钱
我有点我有点倒退了
很多人都喜欢碧昂斯的
泰勒·斯威夫特
他们可能每天要花200k
好吧，就像四处旅行一样，对吧？
如果你想想他们带了多少人
就像你知道的
安全乐队成员酒店
所以有点
他们会拿一些钱是有道理的。
但这只是多少钱好吗？
你知道，然后就像
来支持该说什么，如果这有意义呢？
他们有没有可能只是喜欢围棋？
就像泰勒·斯威夫特
比如说有一个小安全细节，但是就像
去弹吉他
她像总统一样退出
是的，太有名了，就像一支军队。
就像她基本上在支持一支军队，但是
为什么当我们还是孩子的时候
对于一个拿着吉他上去演奏的人来说
拔掉电源对吧
就像这样就像这样
我不需要付那么多钱
这里只有我和我的吉他
让我们像这样走，我们小时候看起来很好
但现在就像
一切都过度生产了
几乎束手无策
就像你需要喜欢做这些事情一样
喜欢收支平衡，对吗？
回到你最初的观点，为什么不免费做呢？
是的，我认为这是一个公平的观点。
但同时也喜欢
有一个真实的
真的很危险
艺术家总是免费工作
因为
事实也经常如此
人们有一个期望
让艺术家免费工作
比如说我是个水管工
你的烟斗爆了，你打电话给我说大卫
你能来修理我的管道什么的吗？
我来做是因为你是我的朋友
但你不会认为我免费做这件事
你坚持要我付劳务费
你知道那会是尴尬的谈话
我知道我是你的伴侣
我不想收你太多钱等等
但是我认为艺术经常被视为
您应该有权免费获得
许多艺术家真的很难
证明对事物的收费是正当的
尤其是如果它是像
喜欢
就像我会回到诗歌中
就像你知道的，它有10行长。
你知道为什么你应该为那种事付钱吗？
哦，你应该是左翼诗人，对吧？
你知道你在收费是什么意思？
所以也有那个空间
我认为在
在泰勒·斯威夫特·唐纳德·特朗普的例子中
比如像
如果是她干的
这真的很不一致
但你也知道
如果你很聪明，你就说我在做。
但这只是
这样我就可以把所有的钱都捐给慈善机构了
我关心的人
我这样做是为了提高认识或者
类似的东西
她还是会输
我知道她会的
我知道但我们说的是假设
这就是权利
这就是为什么我们要
这个播客会在它之后像病毒一样传播开来
谈论泰勒·斯威夫特如何支持唐纳德·特朗普
对于所有
所有泰勒·斯威夫特的粉丝都会来找我们
这就是将要发生的事情
实际上确实提供了50美分。
我很确定我在哪里见过这个
但他谈到了这件事
他就像我得到了
几百万美元来表演
在唐纳德·特朗普的集会上
你不会这么做的
我不想这么做，不是因为我就像
当涉及到政治、宗教和其他事情时
就像我只是我不我不喜欢它
钱没那么重要
尊重50美分对吧
我觉得
我们的问题是当你有钱的时候
你不会说去你妈的
在某种程度上，拥有这笔钱有什么意义？
就像你应该站起来一样
有能力正直的人
应该有诚信
但他们没有，因为他们仍然
有点像游戏
就像你之前说的
也许他们正在为他们的最后一张专辑付费，对吗？
就像所有的东西都是这样的
债务就像绞死你一样
所以你不能说去你的
但在某些时候
当你赚这么多的时候
你还是不能站起来说不
我真的不相信
等等
是的，这很难，就像有一样。
有很多事情有点
世界出了问题，还在继续
就像
你有点
有时候就像是由我来说还是
我会吗？我什么都知道。
我能成为说出来的最佳人选吗？
然后还有
还有其他时候你就像
几乎不敢说出来
你知道喜欢引用某人的话
有人说过一些话
让我产生了共鸣
他们说我不会说是谁
谁说的因为我不记得了
但他们基本上说
言论自由有什么意义
如果你不能将种族灭绝称为种族灭绝
嗯你
我不知道，我就把它挂在那里。
是的，作为一种冥想。
当然，在路上，事情可以是你知道的
如果世界上发生的事情是如此
显然
以某种方式
你知道是的
喜欢但你不能
你不喜欢说出来
或者你不能或者
你知道所有这些事情
如果你不同意某事
突然间你就变成坏人了
是啊就像
你认识很多人
不会把头放在栏杆上
和
很多处于顶层的人都在那里
因为他们比较受欢迎
你是如何变得受欢迎的，基本上
成为大多数人倾注的容器
完美主义者的思想野心
你知道这很热，我想是的，你知道
我
我真的觉得在中国
我本来是要做一个视频的
乔诺不会真的得到这个，但是
那里
我打算做一个有很多魔法的视频
聚集玩家
并询问他们
他们会做三件事来改变游戏
让它变得更好
你想做的任何三件事都可以许三个愿望
我去找玩家，去找店主。
很多店主都不会这么说
是呀
他们就像没有
如果我说产品有，我就卖这个产品。
这只是你想要的愿望
但他们什么也不会说
他们就像我不能
你甚至不能在我的店里拍这个
请你离开
我简直不敢相信会发生这种事
有些玩家也喜欢
我是谁，我该说谁？
他们就像我的声音没有任何意义
就像即使我去了，我
你知道我录了这个30秒的东西
它不会触及到权力
那为什么还要费心去做呢？
和
有很多这样的声音就像
我感到绝望我无能为力
我只是不打算这么做，这不可能。
我可能会被吼的小潜力
何必呢
并把它带回主题
不是批评这些人
因为它完全有效
但这不也是一种销售形式吗？
像这种
喜欢
我相信一些东西
但我不愿意说出来，因为
这可能会让我看起来很糟糕
当然，你知道我感觉我感觉到了这种情况
在过去的几年里
我不太明白的地方
跨政治
是的，我明白我是
完全支持跨性别者
但是有时候我没有
站起来或说出来
当有人说了一些有点
你知道不是跨性别恐惧症
不屑一顾什么的
我只是想你知道我做了所有的
当我还是个上大学的孩子的时候
我真的很努力
我真的很在乎
现在我又老又暴躁
就像我知道我在哪里航行
追逐不是我的重点
然后
大概一两个月前
跨权利在英国受到了真正的打击
根据最高法院的裁决
突然之间
我感到无比的内疚因为尽管
我对上海的一点看法没有任何影响
我有过
因为我的生活中还有其他事情要做
我没有站出来责备别人
事实上，当我为同性恋权利挺身而出时
我最近惹毛了很多人
就像你知道的
人们有
我很难过，因为我给他们打了电话。
我有点破坏了气氛
是啊还有
你知道我的意思，这有点像
就像很难一样
你觉得你在某种程度上背叛了自己
对我来说，这就是出卖的感觉。
你相信某事的那一刻
但你不愿意说出来
你得检查一下自己
我觉得
因为事后你只会感到非常内疚
或者至少我会
我会的，我会反思这一点，并尝试
提高个人水平
是啊还有
因为我认为总有你知道的
你永远不知道会是什么时候
接下来轮到你了，就像他们来之后一样
跨性别的人他们会为同性恋而来
你知道这将再次发生，就像历史上一样
我们需要从这些事情中学习
不管怎样，这些是我的冥想。
抱歉，这完全偏离了节拍，但是是的。
我要结束了，你还有什么要说的吗？
我不知道，伙计，这个播客是赞助的。
通过Nord VPN
我认为在中国
这很难，因为再一次
就像我的故事是关于在中国
喜欢很常见
像狼群一样呆在一起
所以通常人们的文化是不同的，对吧？
我认为创作音乐可能也更难
非主流
只因为这是对的
不是文化上的
我想与众不同很酷
我也认为
我是有史以来最不严肃的一代
哦耶
现在我认为人们不再认真对待任何事情了
你们确实有点认真
他们确实这样做了，但他们有点不知道，我是说很难。
比如你见过德雷克吗？
我不知道你有没有在网上跟踪德雷克
但他就像是牛排赞助的
就像牛排一样平静真的
然后他就像
关于他如何得到国家赞助的笑话
这就像这就像有趣的我不知道耶
我只是觉得一切都很不严肃
在某种程度上不严重，因为人们有多动症。
对某事生气然后
你知道一小时后他们就像
我在为别的事生气
是呀
所以也许一切都消失得太快了
所以是的你
但互联网永远是这样的
虽然它被遗忘了
它会在很久以后被挖出来，然后仍然在那里
所以人们还是要小心
对吧
就像我确定如果我出名了上帝保佑
有些人通过你的过去
是呀
不管
不管这最终会有多少集
我肯定我说了些可怕的话
有人会把它挖出来然后说
亚瑟你是什么
嘿伙计耶
还记得你和Jono在一起的时候
Jono做了些疯狂的事
就像你永远不知道一样
这总是会
不知道这会一直在那里
对，那仍然有点
让我害怕，但你认为你应该喜欢
作为一个人，你并不完美
你应该未经过滤和诚实
因此人们可以向你学习
你可以向自己学习
我是说我想我只是被抓住了
从第一集到现在
我已经改变了很多
就像我改变了对很多事情的看法一样
只是你在成长
我猜你的媒体是对的
就像泰勒一样
成长为流行歌星她是对的
就像人会变一样，你可以
让我们从头开始
然后也许辞职然后回来什么的
就像谁知道
对吧对吧
我不知道这是不是卖完了。
它只是随着时代而变化
我觉得泰勒·斯威夫特就是这样
现在她又有钱又出名
卖完就像她现在一样
哦耶
你知道我的意思
我觉得她现在很有钱
我是说也许她只是不想
乡村音乐了
对吧
你知道，就像这样，这很酷。
她不是和他们一起出了一张乡村专辑吗
Bonneville什么的
她做了
一对夫妇
歌曲yeah
但不是整张专辑
我能给你讲一个像去年一样有趣的故事吗？
所以去年有一个很大的
就像公司一样
互相攻击TikTok
和环球公司互相攻击
基本上TikTok是说
我们不想付你钱
宇宙在说嘿，伙计
我们想得到报酬，比如正确使用我们的工作。
所以本质上就像你被分配到环球公司一样
比如说
我为你写了一首歌，你要释放艺术家
我有1%的歌曲，而你不在通用上
你的歌将从TikTok
基本上你知道音乐产业
在过去的几年里
一切都基于TikTok
所以这些人就像他妈的什么
就像我的歌被TikTok
我需要推广我的歌曲
因为这就像是的媒介
还有呃还有Taylor Swift的标志
一直和环球公司在一起
永远正确
她刚刚去环球说不
你知道把我的音乐拿下来
所以大家都喜欢
世界上最伟大的艺术家
他们的音乐被撤下了
通用不是她
她只是去环球公司说
不，你需要我，我不需要你
你知道我不知道
那是黑帮，就像出卖的对立面
那时你在公司遥遥领先
就像你知道的
她欺负那些欺负公司的人
是的她欺负人
我尊重她是个流氓
是呀
看，我会说它是
因为也许在某种程度上出售是因为除非
她真的相信吗？
艺术家的作品不应该得到报酬
那是在一个平台上
这就是她所代表的吗？
她只是说因为你知道
好像不是艺术家说了算
这取决于普遍权利
当时环球正试图获得更好的交易
我说好
因此
他们把一切都拉了，就像讨价还价一样
而且基本上
这就像想象如果两个国家打一场关税战
或者什么的
公司只是进来说
从未发生过
不不不在我的上面
不，不，我不，我不参与这个
是啊你知道我是说
他们就像，但你的国家是，你就像不
我不是
所以泰勒·斯威夫特在这有点像
iPhone替换零件
免关税的。
我是泰勒·斯威夫特
这就像
所有Drakes的东西可能都被拆了
是啊太疯狂了太疯狂了
哇，你知道我不知道这件事。
是啊她疯了
她我是说她太棒了
老实说，我们这一代最大的流行歌星
就像她做了她做的事一样疯狂
是的
我肯定她也失去了像我这样的粉丝
我不会我现在不会听她的音乐对吧
不确定，但我认为她不需要我公平。
好像她有很多粉丝一样
她先令
是的，她做得很好，我确定。
或者她身上有更重的负担
我们只是不知道
是的，我想她肯定也是。
就像
如果你下面有200人的伞
是呀
和很多责任
是的，你必须养活所有这些人，是的
是的，他们都依赖于她，这是
我无法想象那种责任
压力很大
是啊更重的负担叫Travis
不管他叫什么
她和谁约会
足球
是的，我不知道，我不应该知道
但我知道，我甚至不懂美式橄榄球。
好吧，我要宣布了。
我真的很高兴你们能来
我从你们那里学到了很多
非常感谢。
谢谢所有在听的人，再见。