Reading People – Human Typology with Scott Fischbuch

After a long delay in production … Brian hosts Scott Fischbuch, a Jungian Typology expert, for an in-depth conversation on personality types and his methods. Scott explains his approach to personality typing, which involves analyzing preferences in conversation, turns of phrase, and behavioral mannerisms.

 

Brian shares his journey into podcasting and reflects on how his personality type has evolved. Scott identifies Brian's personality type as ISTJ and explains the significance of introverted sensing and extraverted intuition.

 

They discuss the impact of cultural influences on personality and the importance of effort and team dynamics in professional and personal settings. The episode touches on the nuances of effective communication and the role of empathy and sympathy in understanding others.

 

Scott's site: ToolsWithScott.com

 

Brian O'Leary – 

• BrianDOLeary.com
• @BrianDOLeary on 𝕏–Twitter
• @BrianDOLeary on YouTube
• BrianDOLeary on Substack

Episode Transcript

(00:05):
You are listening to The Brian D.O'Leary Show, your sanctuary for
serious content in an unserious culture.
All right, Brian O'Leary here withyou with, today with Scott Fischbuch,

(00:25):
who is a Jungian Typology expert.
We've had him on the show in the past andwe got to know a little bit about Scott's
story, how he got there and whatnot.
But today, as per the promise of probablyabout a year ago, Scott, I think, but, a
little more perhaps, I wanted to have youback on to do what you do best... for me.

(00:48):
You agreed to do that, whichis to type me and, how you do
your business, which is calledToolsWithScott.com, the website's there.
We've got a website that willbe what, updated or maybe
a brand new one, I believe.
Yeah.
Which , is, which is cool.

(01:08):
It, it includes a lot of so originallythe first website, I hadn't had a website
and then I wanted to do a retreat,and so I made a website just for the
retreat basically, which went very well.
And now I'm building out a website thatincludes a more robust explanation of what
I'm doing and how I do it, and then how togetting just a regular business website.

(01:31):
It just sounds like a big deal to mesince I haven't done it before, but yeah.
Yeah.
Coming soon, shall we say, whichand then on there, your offerings
would be one-on-one consulting and orcoaching, depending on how you label
that or how the client labels it.
Mm-hmm.
Corporate consulting the one-on one stuffreally focuses on personal growth and

(01:54):
a little bit of encouragement, I thinkbased on what your typology, right?
And then the corporate consulting isto kind get the, your teams working
in conjunction with each other.
What a little morefluidly, I believe you say.
Yeah.
Today what I had in mind, and I thinkwe came to , consensus of the Minds is
that we'll dive in head first to step oneof what Scott Fischbuch does on his one

(02:21):
on one personal consulting, and you're,we'll get a little flavor of what he does.
And I'm an open book here.
As far as I know, and Scott's justgonna do his work for us today, and
it's like step one of Scott's program.
So, a little flavor of what youmight get working with Scott.
And I know that a lot of peoplethat I work with also work with

(02:42):
Scott and nothing but good feedback.
So here we go.
Scott, I'm gonna give you the floor
high praise.
yeah, so, basically for, so,prior to, meeting, I'd have a,
like a brief preamble, which isbasically we're just gonna talk.

(03:04):
And my job while we're talkingis to pay attention to certain
preferences in conversation andcertain topics that they prefer.
Certain terms of phrase,and that might sound really
nondescript and kind of vague.

(03:24):
But they fall into different categories,just like ingredients in a recipe.
And I can say, okay, here's thisingredient, here's this ingredient.
These ingredients go into a soup.
These ingredients make up bread, right?
And so that's exactly what I'm doing,except the ingredients in this case

(03:45):
are topics, turns of phrase, certainbehavioral mannerisms and so on.
And then at the end we say thisis a biscuit, or this is a right.
And then to pause.
There's lots of types ofbiscuits, but this is a bi.
Okay, I don't want toget lost in that analogy.
Say taste the biscuit.
There's a nice internet memegoing around taste the biscuit.

(04:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I got a quick question here.
Can, if I got a, if I have aquestion, can I stop you or
would you just prefer me to just.
All right, so one quick question.
You say turns of phrase, could thatnot only be personality typing,
but what region of the countryor the world you're from or Yeah.

(04:28):
Is, are we talking aboutsomething entirely different?
Yeah, absolutely.
There, there's completely a culturaloverlay onto a personality type.
Yeah.
You take somebody from that has anidiom from the northeast and put
'em in the southwest and they don'tknow what they're talking about.
Same thing if you go from, United Statesto Australia or England or whatever, it's

(04:49):
I don't have any idea what you're saying.
Right.
Yeah.
So absolutely.
Cultural norms andpreferences influence the way.
A person develops the type ofparents they have, everything
influences a person's personality.
What I'm getting at is not thoseinfluences, but the core wiring

(05:10):
that those influences are a part of.
So think of what I'm doing is I'mfinding the make and model of your
car, but what you've done and whereyou've been and who you've driven with,
that's a completely different sphere.
Got it.
So you could go offroading witha minivan if you wanted to.

(05:32):
Most minivans don't dothat, but you could.
And so what I'm trying tosay is this is a minivan.
Okay.
Okay.
Alright.
But let's roll.
Let's do it.
So tell me a little bit about whatinspired your podcast and remember
for the listener, what I'm tryingto do is just pay attention to.
Okay.
It makes it a little less organic whenI have to do the explanation, kind of

(05:55):
like a comedian explaining why the funny,
it's fine.
Yeah, it's fine.
Okay.
Okay, cool.
This is a masterclass,Scott, what you're doing.
It's a masterclass.
I'll answer the question.
I've answered, I don't know if I'veactually answered it on this podcast
I have on others, but what inspired meto do podcasting in general is that I
don't know the initial kernel, howeverI started listening to podcasts.

(06:19):
Long ago, like before podcasts,I even had a pod or a phone to,
I listen 'em on the computer.
'cause it was like a lot of timesjust radio shows clipped down to
listen to and reasonable size.
And I was like, oh man,that's kind of neat.
And then people actually had podcasts.
I'm like, oh, that's cool.
I always kinda wanted to do radio,but I didn't know how to do it.

(06:40):
And then, fast forward like 10 years ofI just, I have this in the back of my
mind and I love to get into radio and getmaybe a podcast might be a cool thing.
I never did anything about it.
Scott.
I never did anything.
I just like, oh, that'd be cool.
I just, I don't even know where to start.
And then in 2020, saw the worldcollapsing and I might have better start

(07:03):
doing what I want to do or need to do.
Right now, because I don't know if I'mever gonna get a chance to do it again.
So I called up a buddy of mine.
I said, I've been thinkingabout doing the sports podcast
for about five years, 10 years.
I don't even know.
Do you wanna do it with me?
He's like, that'd be awesome.
Let's do it.

(07:24):
So we, yeah, recorded the first,or we did episode one, sat
down, talked about some things.
There was no sports going on,by the way, and it was called
Sportlanders the Podcast.
And we didn't even record thefirst episode because neither of
us could figure out how to do that.
It's not that hard, but it's justlike one of those stumbling blocks.

(07:46):
Anyway, fast forward few months.
He doesn't have time to do it.
I barely have time to do it, but I reallylike doing it, like scratched an itch.
So I continued this podcast aboutsports until it got to the point
where I'm just like, I can't, I. Dothis on a regular basis because it's
not as important to me as a lot ofother things going on in the culture.

(08:08):
And
so sports kind of took a backseatand it's that was my life.
And so I got in the Tom WoodsSchool of Life and we started
these accountability groups thatyou and I are now in one together.
And I said, well, I don'tknow what I'm gonna do.
I like, I I'm not gonna podcast anymorejust because I don't want to do sports.

(08:30):
They're like, you got a podcast,like you got the setup, you
got the, you got it all.
And I said, well, I don't really haveany idea what I'm in a podcast about.
And so they're like, you betterjust come up with an idea and
present it to us next week.
I'm like, oh boy.
Well, I'm gonna get to work.
So I've been writing a bunch ofemails, and so I just read an
email and put it out as a podcast.

(08:52):
Little bit of commentary.
Then I got Jeremy Evans on mypodcast, and then they're like, all
right what is your podcast about?
I'm like, I dunno.
And I said, well, I'm gonna have abouta hundred of you people on the show, and
that's going in to inform my direction.
And Scott, you were one of the early oneson the show also, and I think we've got
like 25 or 30 folks from the Tom WoodsSchool of Life to tell their story on

(09:17):
the on the program here, which is great.
And it allowed me to keep doing thisand have an inspiration to keep doing
this along with speaking my own mind.
And then it also opened up other doorsto work more, actually, ironically,
within the Tom Woods School of Lifethat it was something I was never
expecting, but it's wonderful thatI get to meet with, dozens of people

(09:42):
every week and hear their stories.
Not on a, public consumptionpodcast, but just like going back
and forth and learn how to attacklife, which is exactly what you do.
And anyway, long story short is thatkeeps me going also to keep this podcast
going and get my voice out there andget the voices of other people that
I know that are inspiring out there.

(10:03):
So anyway I hope thatanswered the question.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think we're, so first off I've doneit enough where I can do the thing.
And also listen, really inspiring story.
really cool.
And then within that I have allof the little analytics going on.
So now we can talk a little bitabout some things that I noticed.

(10:28):
So first you, most of what you'rerelaying, as you're talking
about is your subjective personalexperience in relation to the past.
You were able to hop back into thepast and say, this happened, then
this happened, then this happenedand then they all kind of came

(10:49):
from you as a subjective source.
So if that sounds confusing, what I meanis if you were at a oh, and just to label
that, that's called introverted sensing.
Okay.
And so let's compare,let's contrast that with.
A preference or a focus on the experienceof other people to the exclusion of

(11:10):
your own personal subjective awareness.
So think about knowing what makesyou comfortable versus knowing
what makes someone else comfortableknowing what you've experienced in
the past versus paying attention towhat other people are experiencing.
It's a, so that's the distinction line.
So that's one thing I observed.

(11:32):
And so if you're an in introverted sensor,you're also an extroverted intuitive.
And so what that means is,what I want is not clear to me.
What I want is not clear tome, but what I do prioritize is
what other people want to do.
So I want to be a facilitator ofthe goals and interests of others.

(11:56):
By preference.
It doesn't mean you will always do that.
It just means it's a natural fit.
It feels good to be deliveringon what other people want.
What do other people desire?
Can I fulfill those goals and desires?
And so that's the introvertedsensing, extrovert intuition, axis.
They flow together.

(12:17):
We won't worry about explainingthat in depth, but half of the
personality types have that access.
The other half have a different one.
Okay.
So right now we're down to eight.
So as you're talking,you are staying on topic.
On topic.
Anyone who is listening to you.
So I presented the question as, whatinspired you to do the podcast you said.

(12:41):
Here are the things relatingto the movement of the podcast.
In my experience, what drove me to doit, what the inspirations are, what
key events happened in that in thatmovement, you stayed on topic throughout
the entire arc of what you were saying.
So that is called direct communication.

(13:02):
And then also in that samevein, we have responding.
So we have direct and responding.
I am an informative communicator, whichis the opposite side of direct, which
means I pivot topics and hop aroundand say a bunch of words and allow
people to select and choose what theydo with the information that I provide.

(13:24):
Direct communicators have a tendencyto deliver the information that
was requested, and that's it.
What was requested.
That's it.
And the more informative you are, the moreyou expand from the point of reference,
which is what inspired your podcast.

(13:44):
So if you had asked me that question,I'm doing it right now, by the way.
I'm hopping around a lot.
So if a listener was listeningto me, this is what informative
communication sounds like.
And contrast that to what Brianis doing, which is topic focused,
clear communication relatingto the original question.

(14:07):
And then mine is hopping around a lot.
So Brian is a direct communicatorand he is introverted sensing,
extroverted intuition access.
So now we're down to four types.
There are only four types thathave those trends in common.
Okay.
So we have ESTJ, ISTJ.

(14:28):
Who else would've the direct?
So there's 16 in total, so I'm sortof running the 16th through my head,
figuring out which ones do which.
So I've done for it.
I've done like the tests, the Myers-Briggsanalysis or something similar.
And I think I've mentioned to youin the past what those revealed.

(14:50):
Very confused.
So I think the last one Itook was IN is that, yeah.
Okay.
So I didn't know if that
Right.
So one thing.
I don't even know whatthat means right now.
So in intuitives have a preferencefor broad explanatory conversations

(15:11):
relating to concepts and theories.
They're also hyper future oriented.
We wanna be projecting into the future,and I say we because I also would
represent a member of this category.
So let me explain some evidence andthen you can decide if that fits.
So I have said up until this point, thatyou are, and S and the points of reference

(15:36):
I would use to argue that point are
what does S mean?
Direct.
S means concrete.
We don't have to explain anything.
It's, it just is.
So you say, I talk to my friend.
Okay.
My friend's name is this.
And then N?
N would be what?

(15:57):
I was on a journey of self-discovery
in one word you say concretefor s and then N would be
abstract.
Abstract.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
So I'm communicating in a way anabstract person would be like,
I was trying to find myself.
I was seeking to learnmore about who I was.

(16:19):
And you're like, this is what I did.
And then I, and then there might bea little bit of abstraction there.
I didn't know what I wanted but inthe end, they're actual data points.
This is the name of my friend.
This is what happenedon the first podcast.
This is what we did.
Well, this is what I did actually.

(16:40):
This is how long it took Scott.
On our first podcast.
We did this is what we're doing now.
No one has to wonder, and evenas I'm communicating, you can
say I'm an abstract communicator.
'cause I'm not actuallygiving the details.
You gave the details.
You said Scott, on that podcast wetalked about typology and we talked

(17:00):
about your past and we talked.
It was there, there isn't a needto wonder about the material that's
being presented so abstract are thesesort of broad conceptualization.
So for instance if we'retalking about the word honor.
Honor, it's this floaty conceptof virtuousness capacity,

(17:24):
perhaps bravery loyalty.
It's an umbrella term.
For lots of things.
A sensor would say, mygrandpa was honorable.
There is a real literalrepresentation of this concept.
My grandma was an honorable woman.
And then you could say, these arethe things these are the exact

(17:47):
moments in which I felt that mygrandma was an honorable woman.
And you would pull these things from yourpersonal history attached to this concept.
So the concept informs thetheory and not vice versa.
Okay.
I don't wanna get too into that.
Alright.
So yeah, keep on going.

(18:09):
Do your thing.
Yeah.
So right now we have sensing.
Okay, we have, and not onlydo we have sensing, we have
that it's introverted sensing.
So it's which attaches in an axis.
These two are always together.
Introverted sensing andextrovert intuition.
They always run in pairs.
So extrovert intuition says, this ismy pass is my subjective awareness.

(18:32):
This is the physical thing that Iexperienced, and I remember it over time.
This is the recipe to successthat I've experienced in the past.
I will repeat it diligently over andover to avoid chaos and problems.
And then expert intuitionsays, how can we pivot this?
What could we do?
What could happen differently?

(18:52):
And then depending on how much you useintroverted sensing versus how much
you use extroverted intuition, therewill be a seesaw or an imbalance, or
an imbalance in the other direction.
So high SI users will strugglewith a bunch of chaos occurring.

(19:14):
So they seek to create bounds rulesand structures to alleviate this chaos.
So think about the karate master thatcomes in and says, class, we have arrived.
We will ground, we will become calm.
These are the rules of the dojo thatshould be followed so that we can

(19:35):
have an ordered and efficient class.
Right?
That's he's a sensitive orsensing introvert there,
is that what you're saying?
Okay.
Yep.
Got it.
Okay.
So now let's pivot just for sake of time.
So right now we've done the S and the N.So we lean S you're a direct communicator,
so you're an ISTJ or an ESTJ, essentially.

(20:01):
And then.
Not that this would distinguish betweenthe two, but the words you're saying
are connected to introverted feeling.
So as you're talking, you'reusing words like, I loved it.
It was amazing.
I found that I was passionate about this.
It's personal feeling,personal conviction.
This is what I like.

(20:21):
I know that I like it.
Whether everyone elselikes it, we'll find out.
But I know that I like it.
I know that I'm passionate about it.
It'd be cool if everybody elseliked it, but I know in my soul that
baseball sports is something I enjoy.
However, I struggle with starting, right?
I struggle with initiating,I struggle with beginning.

(20:44):
But since you've begun, you'vebeen going like at a rocket
pace, pulling in new things.
New things are happening.
New things are occurring,but you didn't plan on those
things, you so what we have is.
Direct
responding

(21:06):
concrete,
and we have, what else do we have?
I have a big chart that I just kindof run through my mind right when I
do this, but it's not like having onein front of you, so I actually kind of
have to pause and think about things.
I think that you're systematic

(21:28):
and I think that you're affiliative.
What's that mean?
Affiliative?
It means that group buy-in is important.
I'm not gonna enforce upon youthis worldview that I have.
I wanna make sure that itdances well with the tribe.

(21:49):
I wanna make sure that the thingthat I'm offering to everyone has
consensus and buy-in before I proceed.
I'm not gonna, like for instance,you work in the Tom Woods School
of Life you have an idea abouthow to run the call differently.
Instead of just doing it, you wouldprobably seek feedback from superiors or

(22:11):
feedback from peers prior to applying it.
Yeah, I don't do that.
I, right.
So I would represent the othercategory, which is pragmatic.
I am more likely I might considerit, but it'll be an afterthought.
It'll be like, well, I guess technicallyI could get some permission here, but
I really don't care about it as much.

(22:34):
I've had to learn to care.
Does that make sense?
It's funny you say that, Scott, becauseif I were to analyze myself, I would
not analyze it in that same way thatyou articulated, because I think oh, I
gathered my info, here's how I do it, andthen I'm just, I am doing it my own way.
But no, I did go and source, I talkedto David before I took over his slot.

(22:54):
I talked to him, I talked to a fewof the members about how they do it.
And then I, I kind of sourced how itwas not kind of, but I did source from
members how it was going, how it wasbetter, how it was worse, and then change
it evolve in the in these calls and,each one of these calls is different.

(23:16):
So it's not the same in every singlecall because the group's different.
Right.
Also, but there are patterns that are verysimilar throughout how I'm been doing.
Right.
Absolutely.
I learned, I took a lot of informationfrom Jeremy, from Barbara, from
David and a few other people.
So you're still facilitatingin your own unique way, but

(23:39):
it is bounded by the feedback.
You've curated your personalapproach through the lenses
of the tribe perspective.
It's still you.
No one else is facilitating in asuit, no one else is facilitating
the way that you facilitate.
And I'm not just saying that likeyou bring your interest in sports.

(24:00):
I don't think the other facilitatorshave an interest in sports.
Right.
And I'm not saying they're uninterested,just that's not the thing that they do.
So there are clear personal flavorsthat are not absent in your call.
But prior to the call, you'relike, how should we go about
running a call better or work?

(24:20):
How can we be efficient?
I don't wanna run it worse.
I don't wanna run worse,
but what I wanna do is fail.
How can I fail more successfully?
Miserably anyway.
Yeah, yeah.
No that's good.
I think I think all the, all thisanalysis is pretty good because I
see this, and I, if I can go back alittle bit, I, one of my other jobs

(24:44):
that I really liked it was volunteerjob as a high school baseball coach.
And all these thingsapply, like group buy-in.
Very important for team, very importantdirect concrete instructions to.
The ball players.
It's this is how it's going to bedone, otherwise we're going to fail.
You just have to be on the same mission.

(25:06):
Now, I might not want to be that wayin my own personal life, but when I get
into professional situations, that'show I believe I have to be in order for
any amount of success to be achieved.
Yeah.
So, after listening to everythingwhat I'm arriving at is ISTJ.

(25:32):
ISTJ.
Okay.
That's different than what I've gottenin the past, which was I believe INTJ.
But I think a lot of that, Scott, asyou're talking because this is a, this
is, believe it or not, folks this 15,30 minutes, whatever it's been, is a
lot deeper analysis than some Scantronsheet or, click buttons on a website,

(25:57):
kind of thing to figure this out.
But the thing was, I believe, whenthey ask you questions on these exams
or surveys or whatever they're called
it's hard to be completely accurate'cause you don't, if you don't
know exactly what they want out ofthat question, it's hard to answer.
Like on a scale of five orwhatever it might be, or,

(26:20):
yeah, very high and very low.
It's like how do I differentiate betweenhigh and average or high and very high?
I don't know.
I don't know.
It's subjective.
Yeah, totally subjective.
And that maybe that's partof the deal, but it's hard.
It's hard for me.
So, but I think.
What I may be doing I could be wrongor may have done, was project the

(26:41):
answers that I, in an ideal situationthat I would like and that gave me
that N thing because maybe that's whoI by like what we said at the top from
culture, like everything around me.
Maybe that's who I thought I was supposedto be or what I was supposed to be
like, even though that might not be me.

(27:03):
Yeah.
We tend to hyperfocus onloud components of our life.
So here's a reference.
The memory of, I have a memory whenI was seven, I got trapped out on a
balcony and I stepped on a hornet's nest.

(27:23):
I remember it vividly.
I remember how many hornets stung me.
I remember everything about it.
We have a tendency to rememberanomalous intense experience.
Am I stepping on hornet's nestswith enough regularity to say
that is a personality trait?

(27:45):
No.
No.
Yeah.
But do I remember it?
Is it very loud in my mind?
Yeah.
Can I remember it decadesafter it happened?
Absolutely.
So what can often happen in thesetests is we say, man, I was really
sensitive in that one situationTwo weeks ago, I cried in public.

(28:06):
That's crazy.
I'm a feeler, right?
I'm totally a feeler.
And it's no one else wouldthink that you're a feeler.
You don't ever talk about your feelings,but you're like, I am a feeler.
I remember that day.
It was very intense.
Right.
So those other,
and so that's another thingthat can influence those tests.
Yeah.
And also like the proximity to whenyou're taking the test obviously

(28:29):
the, most of the time memories aremore vivid the closer to the time
that you actually experienced them.
Not like the 7-year-oldhornet's nest thing.
It's still there becauseit was such a big deal.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I can't imagine.
I mean, literally stepping on a hornet'snest, and we talk about that as an idiom
or a turn of phrase a lot, and it'slike, no, you actually had that happen.

(28:51):
Yeah.
It's super triggering, right?
It's not.
I'm cool, but yeah.
So you'll notice you'll noticethese things and that's why
typing can be difficult because.
It requires like a pivotbetween self and tribe.
And if you highly value what you think,you won't listen to tribe feedback.

(29:14):
If you only value tribe feedback,you won't listen to what you think.
And so it can be, it's this dancebetween who is more accurate, and in
some ways, each person is going to preferthemselves as the source of the material.
For instance, I would say sowith an ISTJ, their own personal

(29:36):
values are loud and memorable, andtheir own likes and dislikes are
almost immune to, to tribe attack.
So being yourself is effortless.
Okay.
I wanna stop you right therebecause this is something that's
been vexing me for a long time.

(29:57):
Yeah.
I agree with that.
Analysis number one.
I think that fits me.
Mm-hmm.
However, I don't believethat it always fit me.
And I think from my study of thisstuff and from what people tell me is
that no, you're the same, you're thesame personality type all your life.
It's like you you have I don't know,

(30:20):
brown hair.
I you, but you don'talways have brown hair.
It changes to gray sometimes ormight change to red at certain
point in your life, or, yeah.
I don't, can you ex, can youexpound on that a little bit because
Absolutely.
Okay.
So, well, I didn't mean to interrupt you.
It sounded like you were flying.
No, no.
I don't really know how to articulatewhat I'm asking other than I know I've

(30:40):
changed or I've realized somethingabout me is different, right.
Than your personality type.
Yeah.
I was doing, I wasoperating differently now.
I, as the older I've gotten,and particularly the catalyst
of 2020 really changed that.
Mm-hmm.
Is that I do, I absolutely say I fitthat description, what you said, the

(31:05):
ISTJ where it's like my values matter.
I don't care.
I don't really care that much aboutthese other clowns out there who
are trying to destroy my life.
I have no empathy for them.
However, if you're on my side,I had a lot of empathy for you.
I tended to may think, or I triedto empathize with almost everybody
years ago, and I didn't do a goodjob of it, but that's where, that

(31:30):
was where I was operating from.
You see what I'm saying?
Versus, yeah.
Now I'm more conscious of where I'm at.
I didn't know this about my personalitytype say, but I, I gleaned enough
information to say eh, I have mypriorities and I have my life rules
and whatever they might be, andyou're not gonna change 'em because

(31:51):
I've already experienced them andI've settled on this, this, and this.
Yeah.
So real, real quick
not to get this into a therapysession, Scott, but anyway, go ahead.
Oh yeah.
Alright.
Take a seat on the chair.
We'll figure out whathappened in your childhood.
Yeah, yeah.
The so, so what can happen, and I wannabring up something I mentioned before.

(32:11):
Before Absolutely.
We change Absolutely.
There's nurture.
Like for instance, I can learn howto play basketball, but there are
natural abilities and strengthsthat I have that might make me
better or worse at basketball.
Right, right.
But over time I'm be like,I wanna do basketball now.
Like in, let's say I decideto do that when I'm 60.
That's not the best time to get good atbasketball, but you totally could do it.

(32:35):
You totally could.
And then you'd be the best 60-year-oldbasketball player, presumably
or something along those lines.
So there preferences and interests andfocuses can, and do change over time.
And that doesn't changeour core personality.
It just changes where weput our emphasis and focus.
So for instance, an ISTJ andagain I'm just saying this from

(32:58):
a more system-y kind of look.
This is a I don't want to get,'cause this can get real complex real
quick, but, so I'm gonna avoid that.
But we have with the ISTJ, we'llstick to the Jungian typology stuff.
Okay.
Or you could say MBTI there's a wholebunch of, systems involved in this.
So just real quick, any MBTI

(33:20):
Myers-Briggs?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Myers and Briggs essentially tookJung's stuff and they're like,
how can we turn this into a test?
And then they made a test.
Okay, that's it.
That's what happened there.
Got it.
And so when you have that test, it'sMyers and Briggs making a test for
Carl Jung's observations, and then youhave Dr. Linda Barons, and she's like,

(33:40):
but how do people actually behave?
How do they interact?
And then d Dr. David Kersey is,like, well, what are they kind
of like, inside their mind?
All of these co inform thisbig thing that I'm using?
And then you have Dr. John Bebe andhe's like, let's look at the exact
functions and lenses and what are thecognitive preferences for each of these.

(34:01):
It gets really complex really quickly.
But returning to your question, how is it.
That I am the thing that you describedjust now, Scott, but I wasn't
really like that when I was younger.
And the answer is we sort of moved downour functional stack as we age and we're
like, oh so just for reference we haveintroverted sensing at the top, so I kind

(34:27):
of always know how I'm doing physically.
That's not hard for me to do.
I kind of always know if I need to sleep.
I know if if I'm hungry.
I know.
Just so you know, somepeople have no clue.
The Forrest Gump idea.
There's I'm hungry, I eat.
If I'm tired, I sleep.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's yes.
Yeah, exactly.

(34:47):
And some people I just want totell you are utterly out of touch
with their physical experience.
Almost completely.
So it basically allows them towork tirelessly without stopping.
But of course it takes a tollon their body, which is fine.
'cause they don't notice.
Okay.
And so these are the type of people thatcan work themselves to death or they get

(35:10):
crazy diseases because they're ignoringtheir body while they're accruing all
this sort of social pressure work pressurephysiological issues with their diet.
And they're able to ignore it all.
So it's a superpower anda curse, you could say.
And then being highly attuned,you can't ignore your body.
You have to just endure either,okay, I'm just gonna be hungry.

(35:32):
I feel it, and then push past it.
So that's kind of whatintroverted sensing does.
So are the folks that are like Iron Menand ultra marathoners and that type of
thing, are you saying that is more ofthat, that extroverted sensing where
it's definitely what Yeah, absolutely.
It trends that way.
Anyway.
It trends strongly that way.

(35:54):
Strongly.
Probably 90%.
Okay.
Makes sense.
Would be the extroverted sensing types.
That makes sense.
And then there's some crazy SI peoplethat just know how to shut off or
endure to a degree that's insane.
They are not common, but they arein those realms, but they're rare.
You can kind of tweak that in away, or like to get more attuned

(36:18):
to that one side, for instance.
I mean, I, not to be too abstract, but.
But right now for in the Catholicreligion, it's the season of Lent.
And so you are called on too fast.
The fasting rules have changedquite a bit over the par
particular last 50 years or so.
However, it's encouraged that,fast, and then the term fast means

(36:42):
different things to different people.
But historically fasting was nofood and oftentimes no water.
I've pushed myself over the lastseveral years to fast a few days
at a time and just to see not onlyfollowing, religious practices, but
also just to see if I can do it andlike what all these people in the past

(37:06):
have done and how they endured it.
And this year, honestly, I've, probablynot even supposed to talk about it early
until the whole thing's done, but Ifailed a few times where I have it on
my calendar, like today's a fast dayand I'm like, oh I just can't do it.
I got too many things to do.
I'm hungry.
And I just said, I'll let it slip.
And then I had to double down last week.
I just come on, man, on my calendar.
I said I had something marked out.

(37:27):
I'm like yeah this means no food for real.
For real.
And then some, sometimes, it is,no, no eating until like noon or
3:00 PM or whatever, and whatever.
But the idea is that you can, that'svery hard for me and it's very hard
for a lot of people to do that.
Some people, it's not, likeyou said, it's no problem.

(37:48):
They have no struggle with fastingbecause they'll just like, like you
said, eat whenever or exercise whenever.
Like I gotta go out for a walk every oncein a while just to kind move the blood.
My head straight.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I just sat here all day.
It'd be tough, but anyway.

(38:09):
Yeah.
It would be bad for you.
Yeah.
The I just thought thiswas really interesting.
So here's a great thing to point out.
You asked me, Scott.
This is the difference betweeninformative and direct.
I just noticed that I did it.
You had asked me, Scott I really identifywith what you're saying now, but I

(38:30):
didn't use to, what's up with that?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And then I went all over the placeand I started talking about fasting,
and then you're like, fasting.
It's really, I didn'tanswer your question.
I went in all these different directions.
Okay.
And then we got on fastingand so I don't know.

(38:50):
So that meta analysis, uhhuh, so melooking at what I'm doing and being
like, Scott, what are you doing?
He actually asked, I have to work really,really hard to just answer the question.
Okay.
I have a, it's, yeah.
Yeah.
It's interesting.
Okay.
Do you have to kind of tweak certainareas of your personality, say,

(39:12):
to be effective at the job you do?
To raise one lower the other.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And it's tiring.
Or it is just, it'sjust becoming flexible.
You're like, oh okay, Iwanna go run really fast.
Okay, well, I don't want to be pulling anymuscles now that I'm running really fast
now I need to go stretch my hamstrings.

(39:33):
Oh man, my hamstrings are really tight.
Okay.
It's just like you're stretchingyour mind, you're stretching your
abilities, you're stretching yourcapacities to engage with all
the different types of people.
Right.
They're the people thatwould naturally fit you.
And then there are peoplethat kind of fit you, and then
there's people that don't fit.
And then in, in each case, you have tofigure out, can I move how I am delivering

(40:00):
myself in a way that makes this valuable?
To the other side.
In this case I have to figure outand then you'll be asking the same
questions but in a different way.
Like a, am I accomplishingwhat Scott's setting out to do?
Are we being efficient?
Are we doing the thing?

(40:20):
Like we're all, everybody has a littlevision of how things are supposed to go.
Yeah.
But it's funny you say that becauseI tend to be a bit direct, I guess.
I don't see myself thatway, but maybe, but I also.
I, before we went on, I said I'm, I didn'tsay this in these terms, but I like, I'm

(40:40):
giving you the runway to take it whereveryou want to go, because I'm not part, I'm
constrained by time insofar as it's gottabe probably done within the next hour.
But I said, I think this isa really interesting topic.
I really want to get into itbecause you, I know you Scott, and
we talk almost every week, and I'mgetting glimpses of this, right?

(41:01):
So I want you to be able to and for otherpeople to come in and explore what it
is that you do because, and that'll giveeverybody, I think a better idea of where
you're coming from and even more to thepoint where what you mentioned earlier
about how you can get tired or exhaustedor it's o overload kind of thing.

(41:23):
And I see that.
Every once in a while.
I don't wanna get too far outta school.
You can stop me at any time here.
But there's some days where you'vebeen doing like many of these meetings,
one on, or consulting, you know, witha large group and you're bushed man.
I can tell.
You're just, you're there.
You're there.
'cause you committed to show up.
Yeah.
But your day was alreadyover a few hours ago.

(41:46):
Yeah.
And right.
Yeah.
That's funny.
And but the thing is you come in and I,now I'm understanding why I'm like, ah.
It's just, you're just talking to people.
But the other thing you sayis I'm exhausted, except.
I loved it.
It was so rewarding andyeah, and it's what you do.
And so you have the passion, sonot only you can work through that

(42:10):
exhaustion, just like that ultramarathon runner, if that makes any sense.
Right.
Because it's the passion that you have.
You're not working through itnecessarily, you're accepting it
and, compartmentalizing it moreif I, if that analysis is correct.
Yeah, yeah.
That, that, that's exactly right.
And I suppose if we're goingback into what happens in a call.

(42:34):
So.
A little more conversational,
BrianDOLeary.com/tsol if you wannasign up for Tom's School of Life.
There you go.
Thanks.
Yeah.
Anyway.
Nice.
Yeah.
The and then okay but if we're on a call,I'd be like, okay, I have to do the thing.
I have to, so the next steps wewould go into, so we typed them and

(42:55):
then there's a conversation wherethey're like, oh, I am that way.
Aha.
That's so interesting.
And then there's thissort of rapport okay.
Developed.
And then they're like,okay, so you get me.
So now I can trust your BS stuff likeyour your little words and 'cause
a lot of times people are like, whyam I gonna learn all this vocab?
Why would I do that if you don't get it?

(43:16):
And getting it is typing them and thenmaking sure that they feel that you
understand where they're coming from.
In a cognitive way, because beforethat, why would they respect
anything that you say, right?
Like you're just some guy?
Like you need to show your capacity.
Yeah.
So after that depending on the type,
is that universal?

(43:37):
That is a universal thing?
That's a universal, okay.
People need to know that you're notan idiot in the way that they value.
Like if you're a banker and you'regonna have a conversation about
banking, you're gonna need to,hear industry specific terminology.
You're gonna need to see cleanness in theway that they're organized and present

(43:59):
themselves because it's a numbers game.
It's an accounting game.
If you're gonna be talking to an artist,you're gonna wanna see an aesthetic that's
beautiful and interesting, and that shouldbe representative in their clothing.
You won't necessarily be interested.
Maybe they will be smart and well-spoken,but it's not necessary that they are

(44:20):
because an artist does this other thing.
And then if you're talkingto a pro warrior, you was
taking it for granted that he orshe might not be as articulate or
whatever, but you can sense it orwhatever from the wardrobe or the
way they carry themselves or more so
Absolutely.
The speech patterns.
Right, right.
We're giving off signals all day long.

(44:43):
All day long we're giving off signalsand we're aware and unaware of a lot of
the signals that we're presenting, andjust because we don't value those signals
doesn't mean that they don't matter.
People will judge you forhow you present yourself.
Full stop.
They will make determinations.
Now, whether they're negative or positiveor neutral or objective, they're going to

(45:05):
think something based upon what they see.
They're gonna say, oh, he's beautiful.
Oh he has he's white.
Oh, he's got he wears collared shirts.
He likes to be comfy 'cause heis wearing sweats and pajamas.
He's highly professional, right?
So, for instance, yeah, someone that seeskhakis and a messy button-up shirt or

(45:27):
not a fashionable, but a professional,they're like accountant energy.
You're filling the box of like.
Clean, professional, organized,rule follower, but you're
not beautifully dressed.
Does that make sense?
It does make sense quite a bit.
And getting back to the dress, ifwe ever have this on video, you'll

(45:49):
see the way I'm dressed, dressedin springtime colors because it's,
it stemmed from a conversationthat our group had the other night.
Yeah.
With Scott is they're kind of makingfun of Scott's background and they're
like, oh, Scott, you need to matchthe background with your shirt.
It's like, , come on.
And anyway, so I was like, well, yeah,all these past, all these pastel colors.
I said, well, I'll show up onSaturday when I'm recording this

(46:09):
with Scott and I'll show himthat I can match my background.
I can match the background orany background with my wardrobe.
What I was going to get to as faras wardrobe goes, so some people
say, oh yeah, uh, I'm comfy 'causeI wear a t-shirt and sweats.
Well, yeah, that's comfy for me ata certain part of the day, at night,

(46:32):
I'm not comfortable at all goingto the grocery store in sweatpants
and a t-shirt I that freaks me out.
I'm un under, I'm almostnot dressed at that point.
But some people are perfectly fine, right?
Yep.
Yeah.
And then some people need to getin their formal pajamas and to go

(46:53):
to even think about going to sleep.
I, like you said earlier, I'll goto sleep when I'm tired sometimes,
it's just I'll fall asleep and allof my clothes and I just fall asleep.
Yep.
But it does, I do get more comfortablewhen I get into that mode of sleep.
And now on these podcasts, I don'tcare what the other person wears, but

(47:15):
for me doing this job, I feel a lotmore comfortable in a collared shirt.
And I usually wear a sport coat ifI'm in a, any moderately professional
or a sweater or something,depending like how I'm feeling.
But that's just kinda what I doand I'm comfortable that way.

(47:35):
So, other people are perfectlycomfortable on T-shirt.
I don't care.
Now, if you came to the office insweatpants and a t-shirt and the whole
pair of worn out sneakers, it's just, I'mgonna be thinking about that all the time.
It's just not gonna work.

(47:56):
Right.
But on the zoom call or on, you know,whatever that, it's perfectly fine.
'cause we see pretty mucheverybody from the shoulders up.
It doesn't really matter.
Yeah we're sort of getting into likejust idiosyncratic behavior with people.
Okay.
Not personality.
No, no, no.
I'm not.
Well, no, but okay.
But when we're talking about to labelit, we're having a conversation about

(48:17):
comfort and then we're looking at aspectrum of personal comfort to the
exclusion of societal preferences.
And social awareness.
Right.
That's really theconversation we're having.
So if I was oblivious, oblivious tothe experience I was presenting other
people, it would not be a problemto be a slob because it wouldn't be

(48:38):
hitting me in the face that I was.
Failing to adhere tostandards of behavior.
'cause all I was aware of wasmy own personal experience.
You are like 99.9% I intuition, right?
Yeah.
Or introverted sensing.
Well, right, and regardlessof whether we label, but yes.

(48:59):
Yeah.
And in that case actually most,so that's usually the NPs.
Okay.
And especially the INTPs, likemy type has an easy tendency
to just ignore everything.
I have stains on my shirt, whateveryou know, it's not a big deal 'cause we
have what's called a trickster function.
And our trickster functionrepresents extroverted sensing,

(49:21):
which is the experience thatyou're giving other people.
You, the experience that you'regiving other people is extroverted,
sensing you're seventh functionyou're blind to, and you don't
even know you're terrible at it.
You have no idea you're terribleat your seventh function.
So there's eight total.
There's four that you're aware of, onethat you're kind of bad at, one that
you're effortlessly good at, two thatare kind of balanced in the middle.

(49:44):
And then these ones that pop into yourconsciousness under duress, they'll pop
into your consciousness when problemsemerge that you are struggling to handle.
And then they're like, okay.
Like for instance, if you're obsessedwith what you think, obsessed with what
you think, obsessed with what you think,finally one day you're like, I'm gonna
listen to the tribe I'm gonna finallyhumble myself and get some feedback.

(50:05):
Right?
Or it would be like I'm obsessedwith how I'm feeling, I'm
obsessed with how I'm feeling.
I'm obsessed with my mood and my stuff.
I'm gonna pay attentionto how the tribe's doing.
Every now and then, we'll pivotinto these sides of ourselves that
we would rather not unless underduress, unless a stressful event

(50:26):
has occurred, that forces us to usewhat are called shadow functions.
And our shadow functionsare used consciously.
Like they know they're doingit by other personality types.
They're just unconscious for us.
Right.
Some people are hyper aware ofthe experience they're giving.
They look fantastic all the time.
And they're trying to look fantastic.

(50:47):
If they're uncomfortable, who cares?
What matters is looking good, right?
And then the SI people are like,yeah, but who cares about looking good
if you feel uncomfortable all day?
Right?
Yeah.
Right.
And so there's the, there arethese dichotomies, but there
exist people that don't give acrap about how comfy they are.
They don't care.
They don't care.

(51:08):
Right.
It's the high heels.
Some people, some womenwill wear them all the time.
And some people, some women willjust wear them only in at some
highbrow function and only for acertain amount of time because it's,
and then they're mad and thenthey're like, oh, thank God.
And then they take off all their stuffand they're like, oh man the patriarchy

(51:30):
oppresses me to wear these heels.
And it's this sort of animosityfor, and some are like, thank
goodness I get to look great.
And they're like, yes, theserules are not oppressive.
This is the race I wanna win.
I'm cool with all the rules.
And it's just weird what wechafe against as people, like
what can we not put up with?

(51:50):
Let me ask you a question on thatlast topic of the trickster function.
If you were to analyze me right now,what, and maybe you've said it already,
and that might be the trickster in me,but what is, would you gather would be my
trickster function that I'm unaware of,would I, that I'm unaware of or bad at?

(52:12):
Unaware of and bad at because unawareand bad it's hard to be good at
something that you're unaware of.
I guess in theory, it's possible.
Essentially you, in order to get goodat it, you have to pretend to care.
And that takes effort.
So you have to have really goodreasons to pretend to care, and then
eventually by mirroring other people,displaying that skill, you can accrue

(52:35):
it and develop it for yourself.
Got you can mimic it.
You can pretend to do it.
And at a certain point, you'll accruethe capacity, the muscle memory.
So essentially if you had nonerve endings in your legs, right?
But they still have the skeleton.
You could learn to walk.
You could learn to walk, but noone would look at you and be like.

(52:59):
He's walking real good.
He's doing a great job.
You'd be like this, you'd be,because, you don't have any nerve
endings there, but you can walk.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Yeah.
What would you say?
My, so that's my tricksterfunction might be or is?
Oh extroverted feeling.
So I will ignore and not processmy emotional response to a thing.

(53:25):
What really matters is how everyoneelse is feeling like it, it doesn't
matter about my experience, it matters.
Is the vibe being respected?
Are we cool?
Okay.
So you're saying that I'm valuingthe feelings and thoughts of
others more so than my own.

(53:47):
Is that opposite?
I am valuing my own feelingsmore so than of the group.
Yeah.
And I wanna be clear,this is not an accusation.
I wanna just label it becauseoftentimes it can, it's like,
Hey, this, you're bad at this.
And it's, yeah.
It's valid be, and I'm thinking about itin terms of, my things I've done in the

(54:12):
past, and particularly with coaching,like ball coaching, it translates
to what I'm doing now a little bit.
But, a lot of coaching conventions andstuff, a lot of coaches say, yeah, we just
gotta be empathetic to our ball players,our fellow coaches, all this stuff.

(54:32):
And it's like, man, it's not, it's,you're not just pressing a button
and, producing empathy for people.
And I think it's a, I and I don't know,I've struggled with defining empathy.
And I've done a lot of reading aboutit, and it's one of the, one of
the books I read, it's nah, there'sno such actual thing as empathy.

(54:55):
It's like always a kind ofa the carrot and the stick.
It's al it is always out there.
You're never gonna get it, you'renever gonna get true empathy.
But it's a standard or asomething to reach for the idea.
The ideal is up there, but thereality really doesn't exist.

(55:16):
I don't know where you come outon that or if you've ever thought
about it or do that at all, butI tie that into the extroverted
feeling is more empathetic in nature.
There's two, two kind ofcompeting thoughts perhaps, but...
to clarify.
Oh, and I wanna be, and.
In case there's any misunderstanding,and I'm not saying you misunderstood.

(55:38):
FI says, I, it's thedefinition of sympathy.
I have felt this thing, therefore, I canunderstand the feeling that you have.
I am not taking on your feeling,I am feeling from myself with you.
Because I too have felt that.
So it's coming from a,from within and then, yeah.

(55:59):
Sympathy different than empathy for sure.
And empathy by definitionis, I don't really know.
And maybe I have had experiencewith that, but it's not necessary.
Like the other day Ihave extroverted feeling.
I got really sad all of a sudden becausethe person in front of me was getting sad.
And I was like, oh no.

(56:20):
And I could feel all the feelings.
Like those weren't, it wasn't my stuff.
And it was just like, oh, you are sad.
And I like, and I knew how they felt.
And it had nothing to do withsomething I had felt in the past.
It was just taking on like the emotionalexperience of the people nearby me.

(56:41):
And the higher up the extrovertedfeeling is, the more intense and aware
you are, and usually because you're moresensitive to it, it affects you more.
Right?
Yeah.
No, I, all right.
I, we've probably got a fewmore minutes, Scott, don't we?
This is fun.
But I have these meetings onoccasion every couple weeks
with the other facilitatorswithin Tom Woods School of Life.

(57:03):
And we talk about anything and everythingrelated to the school about it.
And, some of the, some of 'em know othermembers and perhaps better than even I do.
And one of the facilitators was talkingabout a member and oh, like this and this.
I said, I didn't even pick up on that.

(57:24):
I had no idea about a personality trait.
And I'm like it's starting tomake sense why, this behavior
and that behavior exhibit.
Good, great people, all of them, but it'soh, no wonder I can't quite get through.
I didn't even recognize that.
But that's what you're saying isgoing back to probably more of
that extroverted feeling becauseI'm, it's harder for me to.

(57:48):
'cause it's more concrete.
What I'm seeing You tell me this.
I take in that
Yes.
And subtext.
What is subtext?
Get that outta here.
Let's just stay real.
Quit.
Quit with this weird,fill in the blank mess.
Yeah.
So why would we do that whenwe could just not do that?
But when that was exposed to me, thenI'm, I start thinking, I'm like, I

(58:13):
gotta look a little deeper than whatjust the words coming out at me are,
because I need to see that a little more.
Not with that member with everybody.
It was a real breakthrough actually.
It gets so complicated onceyou start doing that, you're
like, oh no, it's too much.

(58:36):
And I can see how, particularlywith your personality type
how that can be exhausting.
Yeah.
You're on all the time.
Yeah.
If I were doing podcast, if I weredoing podcasts all day long, every
day, radio hosts for crying out loud,four hours is a long day for them.
And then you get some, like thebig guys who have a three or four

(58:58):
hour radio show and then an hour oftelevision, and that's a big day.
I'm like, we all work like 8, 9,10 hours a day doing whatever we're
doing, like getting on air like that.
It sounds fun to me.
Not exhausting, but.
Again, different personality types.
Yeah, yeah.
I was talking to my businesspartner the other night.

(59:21):
And she said, Scott, is it too lateto have a conversation about, and
essentially the topic was analyzingcomplex data, analyzing complex people
stuff, doing personality typing.
And I was like, Gini Lin, evenwhen I'm exhausted, this is
the easiest energy to summon.

(59:42):
This is the easiest thing thatI can do when I am dead tired.
I can do it.
You mean too late in theday to talk about it?
It was around 11:30 PM
Oh wow.
Okay.
So late.
Not late, late in your relation businessrelationship, but late in the physical day
In the evening.
So essentially the physiologicaleffects of lack of rest are gonna start

(01:00:03):
emerging later unless you regularlygo to bed at that time, which I don't.
But it's the easiest thingin the world to do that.
Now, if you wanted to have me behighly emotionally connected with
you, fully available, I'm gonnaneed like a five hour warmup.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna need to be freshin the morning to do a good job.

(01:00:26):
Like I could do a really terrible jobabout taking on your emotional experience
and being sympathetic kind and caring.
I can totally do that.
I can . But not in abundant doses.
And it's very hard to do whenI myself am tired, whereas.
Analyzing and cohering data andfiguring out patterns and conclusions.

(01:00:50):
I can do that when Ihaven't slept for two days.
I wouldn't, I would do it poorly.
I can still do it.
And I think that's the differenceis like, so those dominant
functions, we always can do them.
It's like breathing.
Right.
So is this brings me to anotherexample when you mention that, and is

(01:01:14):
this more like a nuance of behavioror is this a personality type that
you would do this or not do it?
So oh yeah, I'm available, butit's going to, I'm just cashing
it in, but I'm available.
I'll do it.
Or.
Would you prefer to just not doit at all until you have that five

(01:01:35):
minute warm or that five hour warmup?
Or does it matter?
Because
Well, the answer is that's a spectrumand certainly some personality types
will lean in the direction thatyou described and some will lean in
the other direction you described.
So the NPs don't mind half-assing it.
Okay.
Like they'll show up and do a crappy job.

(01:01:58):
'cause they're like, yeah, no.
at least something' s getting done?
Some people like, well if youstarted it, you should finish it
and it needs to be finished properlyso those guys just don't start.
Right.
So if, if you're the, so,so, does that make sense?
If you're terrified ofleaving a project incomplete.
Probably won't start it.

(01:02:19):
Unless you know that you havethe energy to complete it.
And what if it's one of those hugeenergy sucking, life changing projects?
It just means you'll never do itunless like a asteroid hits the
earth and then it's time to change.
And then you're like, I'm gonna go.
So it takes some Herculean effort,
podcasting.
Right, right.
And then, okay.

(01:02:40):
And the flip side is the people that startthings, it's almost impossible to finish.
And so they're like, man, isn'tit cool that Brian O'Leary
is able to be a coherent?
And he stays responsible.
Wow.
I'm so envious.
But they don't know how hard it was.
To begin.
It's the getting going isoften, people are stuck a lot.

(01:03:03):
And I talk about this a lot.
I have here, I don't know if we have iton video, but I have this kind of like
offensive coordinator's play sheet.
You know, things that come upa lot of time in our calls.
And one, one of the things I say Ihave just in, in this one square, it
says, stuck some ideas to get unstuck.
Define your mission.
Do something mindlessly boring todon't dwell on this thing and do

(01:03:28):
something that's totally unrelated, butthat's also interesting and creative.
You might have a different systemto do that because I haven't
changed this since we had a talk.
It's.
You wanna do the oppositealmost to get unstuck.
I think from your personality, Scott,sometimes you'd want to be still
Yeah, I desire, yeah.

(01:03:50):
It's a different, it's a different thing.
Yeah.
Anyway, I wanted toget back to this point.
I saw this interview.
YouTube, and it was David Lettermanearly days interviewing Christopher
Reeve, just, not too long aftermaybe when he was, you know, early
days of the Superman franchise.
And he said, oh man, it must havebeen great working with Marlon Brando.

(01:04:11):
And he's like, actually, no, it sucked.
Some, I think that was the language.
He's like, it sucks.
He's like, whoa.
He's like, he's a great, he's don'tget me wrong, he's a great actor.
Love actually liked workingwith him, but he just mailed
it in, he just mailed it in.
He could do that and he couldessentially do that work in his sleep.
He was just there to do thejob and give nothing back.

(01:04:34):
And honestly, probably the way Iinterpret it he took nothing in, he
was just there literally to do the job.
So he not got no personalinteraction with folks.
And that was the thing thatbugged Christopher Reeve the most.
Not that he got the 2 million bucks.
2 million bucks.
He said, fine, he earned it.
He's a great actor.
Right.
But there was no personal communication,or interaction really with this great pers

(01:04:59):
this supposed a great actor and personand this new up, up and coming actor that
wanted to show the world what he can do.
And like he felt kindof like he got cheated.
I had a call with my longest client.
I've been working with him for acouple years, and we had a conversation
about effort and that isn't the samething as succeeding, because you

(01:05:24):
can fail, but there's still Okay.
And we want success.
We want people to deliver thegoods, but we worship, or worship
is perhaps not the precise word,but we're Effort means something.
Effort means I can't say what itmeans, but like when you see, okay.

(01:05:49):
Let's say ultimately a kidis trying out on a team.
And he is not as good.
As the other soccer players.
He's not as good as theother baseball players.
We'll use baseball.
He can't hit it.
But like in practice, noone is hustling like he is.
I love those things.
He's the chubby boy with asthma andhe's just running and he is like falling

(01:06:11):
over 'cause he is running so hard.
His little heart is pounding.
He's like five foot one.
All the other boys are five foot five.
But he's almost keeping up.
But what he is working with is somuch worse in terms of like physical
acumen and there's something soinspira you're just like, yes,
totally.
It's awesome.
And I was talking to him about that andit's like effort and I can't remember

(01:06:35):
what came out of it, but it was just like,don't forget how meaningful effort is.
People will remember that you worked hard.
And here's the thing.
So that's the cool thingwith typing people.
Is you can know when they're on hard mode.

(01:06:56):
When they're doing the thing that they'reterrible at because they love you or
because they value your relationship.
They're gonna do the thingthat they hate doing.
On your behalf.
And they'll do bad.
They actually won't do a good job at it.
Your kids will make the burntscrambled eggs and the weird
pancakes for the bed and breakfast,and you're like, this is gross.

(01:07:19):
Thank you.
Yes.
But you can feel that gratitudefor the failure because you know
how difficult the feat was for theperson that's presenting it to you.
And so there's something tothe, this concept of effort.
Yeah.
I see that loud and clear with myexperience in coaching, coaching,
baseball, and even playing baseball.

(01:07:40):
Like I love the guy, those type of guyson my team, I didn't care if they played.
If they got a hit.
But I knew they were gonnagive it all they got for the
other people, for our team.
And it really I saw that in a major way.
Some of the kids I would playlike, wow, like I'm starting

(01:08:04):
like, Hey, you earned it.
Just go out and show it.
And if you don't show it,then you know you're back on
the bench, but you earned it.
He didn't.
And then you, it's even better whenthese guys go out and perform at that
level 'cause then it builds the team.
Not that we're talking more personalityhere, but like typing people, if I

(01:08:27):
had known more about this stuff, Iwould've been much more informed and
much more confident in those decisions.
It was a gut decision, you know, andyou'd see a lot of pro sports coaches
or baseball managers or whatever.
They go the old, they call it old school,they go on gut and they're like, they
poo poo all the analytics these days.

(01:08:48):
Well, I'm like, you gotta have both.
You have to know the stuff andyou have to have a good instinct.
But instinct often is developed overtime based on all these things and
experiences you have seen over time.
And you pay attention to them.
You pay attention tothese things that happen.
It's not just like, ah, I got this, youknow, like queasy feeling in my stomach.

(01:09:11):
I better pinch hit so-and-so for so andso and then we're gonna win the game.
That's a bunch of, bunch of crap.
It's bs it doesn't work.
I mean, it might be work in luck, but itdoesn't, it's not a strategy by any means.
Yeah.
Like in the end I think effortis the leaven in the bread.
Okay.
Yeah.
No matter what, no matter what, youneed the bread 'cause you'll starve

(01:09:33):
to death and you can't eat yeast.
Right?
You could eat yeast, but that'snot really calorically dense.
But a really great loafof bread needs yeast.
So think about a regular teamthat does a really good job.
And then think about if they had awildly effortful player or handful
of players in that team that raisedthe performance of the team beyond a

(01:09:57):
career player to striving and working.
So think of the KobeBryant, the Michael Jordan
Go from a good to a championshipteam is what happened.
That's exactly right.
Sorry, I didn't mean to interject that.
You get it.
That's, that's the pointI was trying to make.
Yeah, and I'm gonna,I'm gonna leave it here.
We're talking baseball.
Scott probably is a little uncomfortabletalking baseball, but we'll do it anyway.

(01:10:20):
Yeah.
And I have I made this, really it'slike a huge book if I were ever to get
back into coaching again, and I haveall these systems and practices and
whatever, and, but I have, and it'snot personality types, but certain
traits that I want in players andcoaches with examples from, really

(01:10:40):
from big league baseball and there'sthis fellow Johnny Gomes who played on
several championship baseball clubs.
He was one of these guys thateverybody wanted on his team
because he would raise the level.
He was a good player, not agreat player, but a pretty darn
good player most of his career.

(01:11:01):
But he gave, he was a teammate.
He raised the level of all thesepeople, and I see that, and when
I was growing up I guess I wasjust naturally kind of that way.
I never consciously thought about it.
Getting back to an earlier point we made,like I never consciously thought about
that, but as I got into the coachingrealm, I'm like, oh, that's what I want.

(01:11:27):
I want that guy on my team.
I want a bunch of those guys.
I don't care if so and soor so and so isn't that guy.
But I want all those gap fillers to have.
This way of thinking, thisway of going after it.
And I think that works and that hasbrought me over to say even the work we

(01:11:48):
do every week, Scott, where, I see it now.
Not everybody is capable to share andwe don't even need to share things
that we're not comfortable with, butnot everybody does what they do within
these small groups and it's low, it'srelatively low stakes, what we're doing.
Not something you getwhen you go with Scott.

(01:12:08):
But you know, I can see alright,oh I want, I know this guy or this
girl, woman this man or this womanis going to help fill the gap to
raise the level of this entire group.
And it's not, I'm not picking and choosinglike, oh, this guy's bringing it down.
She's raising it up or he's raising it up.
She's, he's bringing it down.

(01:12:30):
No, it's the, if the entire, Ithink of it as a team, if they
all come together and their roles.
Everybody has a roll, whetherthey know it or not, and it works.
It just flat out works 90%of the time, 95% of the time.
It works pretty darn well.
And I have to thank you and all the othermembers for just making this particularly

(01:12:54):
understanding that and knowing that,and making these things go well week
after week because I didn't know.
Honestly, I didn't knowwhat I was getting into.
Yeah.
Effort is essentially thecement between the bricks.
You still want uncracked, strongbricks, but you also need the
thing that holds them all together.
Yeah.

(01:13:14):
Yeah.
And I think that's the, in sports,they have a expression for, there,
there's a glue guy on the team.
A glue guy.
Yeah.
There it is.
Is what they call 'em.
And I, and you know, you hearthat over and over and sports
writers often write things.
They don't even know whatthey're talking about, but they
hear it from somebody else.
But if you know these things, if youstart studying these things, the better

(01:13:37):
off you're gonna be, whether you goto sports or business or frankly, like
being a barber or a cab driver like Ionce was, and I was like, these things,
you're gonna be just better at what youdo, the more you learn about people.
And I just think it's,I think it's wonderful.
But any last words, Scott, beforewe say bid adieu, for at least for

(01:14:00):
now, we can put a bookmark in this.
Continue.
Yeah.
Well, no, I was gonna say amen.
I, it was great to be on the.
Great to be on the pod.
Great to be on the podcast.
Yeah.
Appreciate it.
Yeah.
So let's send the good folksout there to Tools with Scott.
Like I said, there's a ComingSoon, new website should be done.
Yeah.

(01:14:20):
All right.
And then book a book, aone-to-one call with Scott.
He can go more into depth or lessinto depth, however you wanna do it.
Yeah.
All my contact info ison the retreat website.
And and then if you're in Tom WoodsSchool of Life, you can direct message me.
I'm the only Scott Fischbuch inthe school, so that's pretty safe.
Yeah.

(01:14:40):
Just direct message, Scott,if you're in the school, and
if not, if you wanna get, if.
Like I said earlier, BrianDOLeary.com/tsolstands for Tom's School of Life.
It's a wonderful program andScott's attest to it in the
past, and I attest to it now.
And good group.
We meet some great people, and and Iwould say this last Friday on a call one

(01:15:02):
of the members just said, without TomWoods even being there, he said, kudos
to Tom for bringing us all together.
I was like yeah.
I wouldn't know a guy like Scott.
There's no way I would ever met him.
And now I do.
That's true.
And it's wonderful.
Yeah.
And I appreciate it and Iappreciate all the folks in my life.
And anyway with that being said, we willcatch you later folks, and I appreciate

(01:15:22):
you spending all this time with us.
Thank you.
For more of our podcasts, headon over to BrianDOLeary.Com.
And while you're over there,sign up for our email list.
We'll send you daily emails.
You can also find the link forour Substack page and various

(01:15:42):
other resource pages we have.
And that's at BrianDOLeary.com