July 25, 2025 • 35 mins
Benjamin Dennehy is an engaging and entertaining trainer and speaker who blends humour, psychology, and raw insight to challenge everything you think you know about sales. Known as The UK’s Most Hated Sales Trainer—a title he unapologetically made up for marketing purposes—Benjamin isn’t here to coddle. He’s here to disrupt. With brutal honesty and sharp observations, he holds up a mirror to the sales industry, exposing uncomfortable truths that many recognise… and few want to admit.
Originally called to the bar as a qualified Barrister in New Zealand, Benjamin never planned on a career in sales—like most people in the profession. Very few dream of sales as kids, yet somehow find themselves selling by default, not design. Young, articulate, and presentable? That’s often all it takes to land a sales role. But doing a job you never truly wanted? That’s a recipe for mediocrity, and Benjamin is on a mission to change that.
Through his no-nonsense, laugh-out-loud style, Benjamin helps sales professionals break out of autopilot and into purpose. He doesn’t teach gimmicks—he teaches mindset. Whether speaking from a stage or leading a training session, he’ll leave you thinking, laughing, and maybe just a little bit uncomfortable. And that’s exactly the point.
During the show we discussed:
- Spotting high-value prospects quickly
- Leading sales conversations with confidence
- Building a top-performing sales mindset
- Sales script vs. process — what works best
- Disqualifying prospects faster and smarter
- How prospects deceive you—and what to do
- Creating a consistent sales pipeline
- Opening calls with clarity and purpose
- Handling objections without losing control
- Following up without sounding desperate
- Mindset shifts to earn more with less effort
Resources:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Welcome to the Business Credit and Financing Show.
Each week, we talk about the growth strategies
that matter most to entrepreneurs.
Listen in as we discuss the secrets to
getting credit and money to start and grow
your business.
And enjoy as we talk with seasoned business
owners, coaches, and industry leaders on a variety
(00:22):
of topics from advertising and marketing to the
nuts and bolts of running a highly successful
business.
And now, to introduce the host of our
show, financial expert and award-winning author, Ty
Crandall.
Hello, and thanks for joining us today.
I'm super excited you could be here because
today we're talking about one of the most
important traits you need to know and have
(00:44):
in your business, which is your ability to
actually close clients, your ability to actually close
the sale.
And we have with us today, I would
like to say one of the top experts
in the field, but I can only describe
him as the UK's absolute most hated sales
trainer, self-defined, by the way, not me,
Benjamin Dennehy.
Now he is engaging and entertaining trainer and
(01:04):
speaker who blends humor, psychology, and raw insight
to challenge everything you think you know about
sales, known as the UK's most hated sales
trainer, a title he unapologetically made up for
marketing purposes.
Benjamin isn't here to coddle, he's here to
disrupt.
So with brutal honesty and sharp observation, he
(01:25):
holds up a mirror to the sales industry,
exposing uncomfortable truths that many recognize and few
want to admit.
Now, originally called to the bar as a
qualified barista in New Zealand, Benjamin never planned
on a career in sales, like most people
in the profession, very few of sales, or
very few dream of sales as kids, yet
(01:47):
somehow find themselves selling by default, not by
design, young, articulate, and presentable.
Well, that's often it takes to land a
sales role, but doing a job you never
wanted, well, that's the recipe for mediocrity, and
Benjamin is on a mission to change that.
So through his no-nonsense, laugh-out-loud
style, he helps sales professionals break out of
(02:09):
autopilot and into purpose, he doesn't teach gimmicks,
he teaches mindset, whether speaking from a stage
or leading in a training session, he'll leave
you thinking, laughing, and maybe just a little
bit uncomfortable, and that's exactly the point.
Benjamin, what's up, man?
Thanks for joining us today.
Thanks for joining, man, that's a long bio
entry, I'm gonna have to edit, I had
no idea it was so long.
(02:29):
I didn't cut anything out, though, it's all
so good and so true, I loved every
bit of it.
It was actually Barrister, not barista, baristas make
coffee, barrister's a British attorney, a lawyer, all
right, so it's barista, I didn't know if
I just didn't pronounce it, or if I
just absolutely misread it wrong, right?
So you were making coffees then, right?
No, no, no, I trained as a lawyer.
(02:50):
Oh, you trained as a lawyer, so I
almost called you a barista.
You said barista, yeah, and I thought, I'm
not a coffee guy, I don't like coffee.
It's the same thing, people that make coffee
and serve practice law, really, isn't it the
same thing?
My cry's the same skill level, put it
that way.
It's the same skill, man, you are, and
your bio's 100% spot on, because I
(03:11):
was just laughing, you came in the room,
I was laughing, I was like, this is
hilarious, every single thing about you coming in
the room and then appearing in the room
made me laugh, so.
Oh, that pleases me, thank you.
So what happened here?
How did you get in from a non
-barista role as an attorney that you were
into sales?
Like, by the way, you know how crazy
of a jump that is?
(03:32):
Like, people that I think of in attorneys
in the States are the most conservative people,
factual people.
Like, I couldn't even imagine somebody jumping from
that field to sales.
Yeah, I'm in sales like 95% of
everybody else.
I fell into it.
I needed a job, right?
So what I did was I left my
home country of New Zealand after becoming a
(03:54):
lawyer, went to do some travel and moved
to England.
And what do you do if you're educated,
you can string a sentence together, you have
no skills, and you don't dribble?
You're pretty much qualified to be a salesman,
and that's pretty much the entry level, right?
So I needed a job.
This is it, you ask anyone, how'd you
get to sales?
I kind of fell into it, yeah?
(04:16):
But if you, you know, this is why
I point out why most salespeople are useless
at it, because no one really wants to
be there.
They're just there because they needed a job.
You go to university, you study English literature,
or gender studies, and you come out, and
you're like, no one's going to pay you
for that crap, right?
So you have to find a way to
make some money.
And sales will always take on anyone that
basically gets through the interview without being in
(04:36):
a coma.
So once you're in, you're in.
Most salespeople are stuck.
Because let me ask you this, and this
is true, this always makes me laugh, have
you ever seen a job advert that says,
wanted, former salesman?
There's no transferable skillset.
Because once you're in sales, you're stuck.
It becomes a life sentence for most people.
And most people are just doing their time,
hoping to get through, keep their head down,
(04:59):
and die.
A few make a good success of it,
but they're the few.
So I fell into sales like anybody, I
needed a job, and here I am, 20
years later, stuck, unable to get out.
Well, you've learned a lot along this path,
going from sales to sales trainer, and I
have so many sales questions, because I don't
(05:19):
know if I've ever had a sales expert
to your caliber on the show.
Okay, so here's the thing that I'm stuck
with on sales.
I've never been able to get this fixed
with our sales team.
How do you get salesmen to understand that
a prospect is worth their time?
Because it seems like everybody, I've ever hired
in sales, they just wanna sell everybody without
(05:40):
doing any kind of qualifications.
So what are some of the secrets and
keys you've learned for that?
Okay, so the number one is, most salespeople
wanna be order takers.
That's what most salespeople want.
They want people to give them money and
then take the credit for someone giving them
money.
Like I say, anyone can take money from
someone.
You can rob an old lady, you can
mug a tramp, you can do all sorts
(06:01):
of things to get money off of people,
but selling is an actual skill.
So most people don't wanna put in the
effort to learn how to sell, they just
wanna do their job.
Prospects, so what is the purpose?
If you're cold calling, for instance, what is
the purpose of a cold call?
If you were to ask yourself, I asked
this of thousands of people, they always get
it wrong.
What is the purpose of a cold call?
To make contact.
What are you trying to do?
(06:22):
You see, people say make contact.
Some say get an appointment.
Some say get a meeting.
Some say find pain.
Some say to educate.
All of those are great, but those are
all potential outcomes.
It's not purpose.
Purpose and outcome are different.
So what is the purpose?
What are we trying to do?
It's simple.
It goes back to an earlier question, which
I haven't asked.
How does a human being buy anything?
Do you know?
What's a process that a human being would
(06:44):
go through to make a decision on whether
or not they buy something?
Most people get the first bit.
So that I'm not really sure of.
I can just tell you that most people,
I think, think they're acting logically, but they
basically are acting emotionally and justifying logically.
That's the only answer I have.
So we buy emotionally.
Everything you buy is 100% emotional, but
you've got to justify it logically.
(07:05):
So emotionally, you could want something, but logically,
I can't afford it.
I really want a Ferrari.
But I can't afford it.
So that means emotionally, you want it.
Logically, you can't do it.
So what happens with most salespeople is when
they pick up the phone, they think their
job is to try and logically convince somebody
of why they should do something or why
they should meet with them.
But that's wrong, because if we buy emotion,
(07:26):
we've got to start with emotion.
So the purpose of a prospecting call is
to get someone to feel emotional about whatever
it is that you fix.
Most people don't know that.
So they don't structure their call to design
it to achieve that outcome.
Their outcome is get a meeting, get an
appointment.
So they're so focused on the end goal,
they're not looking at what they're doing to
get to where they need to be.
(07:46):
And so they have this belief that every
human they talk to should have to or
want to or should meet with them.
That's not true.
There's only so many people out there that
I can get to emotionally connect to what
I fix.
So my job is to figure out how
to express that and get people to come
in.
So this is why most cold calls fail,
because they're going about it the wrong way.
It's just number after number after number.
And you do enough shit enough, you make
(08:08):
results.
Don't get me wrong.
But there's no control.
And that's the other thing.
Most salespeople have no control over what they're
doing.
They simply react to the prospect.
So what's some of the keys to take
control?
One, you've got to get rid of all
the rules and beliefs that you were taught
as a child that you don't realize impact
you so fundamentally.
Let's go again.
We can go back to prospecting.
(08:29):
Most people hate prospecting, right?
Most people can't stand it.
Even people in- It's not a prospect,
yeah.
Yeah, if you've been on a sales floor,
I've done this, I've done training, done a
morning session.
And said, okay, guys, let's go hit the
phones.
Do you know how long it takes for
me making that statement to someone actually picking
up a telephone?
Oh my God, the routine they go through,
got to turn on the computer, got to
(08:50):
go into the serum, then start flicking through.
No, can't call him.
Can't call him.
Suddenly they've got to- I've just got
to add a note to this one.
I've just realized something.
It's like, for God's sake, pick up the
- Why are you prevaricating procrastinating?
It's because we were taught things.
We were always taught, never talk to strangers.
No one ever told us that rule doesn't
apply as a grown-up.
So it's there.
We were always taught it's rude to interrupt.
(09:12):
No one ever told you that that doesn't
apply as a grown-up.
So here you are, a grown-up adult,
told pick up the phone.
And for some reason you're finding ways to
avoid it because deep down you're about to
do something your mother's screaming in your ear.
Don't do, you're going to interrupt a stranger.
What are you going to say to him
when you get through?
And the other thing is you've been programmed
to answer every question that's been thrown at
you.
(09:32):
So your fear is, but what if they
ask me a question I don't know the
answer to?
Then you're free.
So you listen and you watch salespeople.
And it's like watching a room full of
10 year old children try to impress a
stranger.
It's pathetic, right?
So the way we take control is by
taking control of ourselves.
First things first is I can interrupt anyone
I want.
(09:53):
That's all right.
No one can stop me.
I'm allowed to talk to any stranger that
I want.
I believe that if my product does what
I say it does, I believe when I'm
picking up, do you know what's going through
the head of the average salesperson when they
are prospecting, particularly at senior director level.
Normally it's, please don't answer.
Please don't answer.
Please don't answer.
Yeah.
And then when they do answer, they're like
(10:14):
a deer in headlights.
Ah, ah, ah, yes, well, hi, my name's
Ben.
And then I start to vomit on them
about who they are and what they do.
What you've got to do is take it
back.
When I'm dialing the phone, I'm thinking this
prick had better answer because if he don't
answer, he's wasting my time because this could
be the best call this guy takes all
day.
Because if he has the problems I fix
(10:34):
and I can get him to recognize it,
he shouldn't be grateful that I've given up
my time to call him.
So it is a clear mindset shift.
You have to change how you view yourself
as a salesperson.
Most people see salespeople as, well, let me
ask you a question.
If you were to ask the average salesperson,
what's the first word that comes into your
head when you think salesman?
You normally get something like sleazy.
(10:56):
That's even from sales.
Sleazy, pushy, yeah.
That's it, yeah.
And you're in sales.
So salespeople deep down subconsciously think they're sleazy
scumbags.
No wonder so many of them struggle to
take control.
They hate who they are at a fundamental
level, right?
So you've got to switch that.
Selling is a noble profession.
The only problem with it is, is it's
(11:16):
not a profession.
It's full of carpetbaggers.
Go to a party, meet a doctor, meet
a surgeon, meet a lawyer.
How'd you become a doctor?
Oh, I've always wanted to be it.
Always wanted to be it.
How'd you become a lawyer?
Oh yeah, I've always had this commitment to
justice.
Ask a salesman, oh, I needed a job,
you know?
And yet it's still called a profession.
How many years have you been studying?
Well, we had three days product knowledge.
(11:37):
I got a new suit, a CRM system
and a car.
You are one, yeah?
No, seven years at medical school, four years
at law school, years of being junior in
your profession, studying, learning.
Salesman, that's it.
You're automatically won the moment you pass the
interview.
So this is why they have no control.
They've never been taught how to sell.
They've never studied selling.
(11:57):
They just told, you're a sales professional.
It's pathetic.
So what do we do to change mindset?
Because that's a huge hurdle to overcome, especially
since we're talking about stuff that has been
ingrained from childhood forward.
The mindset follows behavior.
So you have to change your behavior.
It's like going to the gym.
You want to lose weight, but you hate
going to the gym, but you force yourself
(12:19):
to go.
And after a while, it ceases to be
a chore.
It becomes a part of your lifestyle.
You actually got used to going to the
gym every day at the same time and
following a certain routine.
After a few months, you actually feel bad
if you kind of missed it because you've
actually got so used to doing it.
So it's the same with sales.
You have to learn how to take control.
You have to change your behavior.
(12:40):
So the first thing you've got to learn
to do is, let's say you're in a
sales meeting.
The first thing you have to do is
take control.
Most salespeople don't take control of the sales
meeting.
It's always generally led by the prospect because
they always demur to the person they think's
got the money.
Well, the man with the gold makes the
rules, remember?
That's a rule we were taught as kids.
The man with the gold makes the rules.
He's got the money.
(13:01):
You want the money.
Yeah?
So they also, this is one thing I
love.
Salespeople are addicted to something I call the
most powerful drug in the world.
It's called hopium.
Yeah?
Hopium.
Every sales meeting starts off with, I hope
this goes in the right way.
I hope we get the outcome that way.
It's always hope-driven.
It's never fact-driven.
It's never skill-driven.
(13:22):
Let's go in, vomit all over them, hoping
that we're in some sort of German nightclub
and we find someone that loves being vomited
on.
And at the end of that, they're hopefully
gonna give us some money.
So taking control is controlling the meeting from
the outset, making it clear what's gonna happen
at the end.
This is your meeting, not the prospect's.
You're here to figure out if they should
be your customer.
(13:43):
I'm not here to convince you to buy
from me.
That's a huge shift in behavior.
I'm here for you to figure out if
I should sell to you.
Because I have the solution, you have the
problem.
You don't have the control.
The only thing you have is money.
Bad luck for you.
I don't need your money.
I do quite well out of this.
So convince me.
Why should you be our customer?
(14:05):
That fundamentally changes the entire meeting structure.
You're in control.
There's loads behind that, but that's the fundamental.
I'm not there to convince anyone to buy
from me because I can't convince anyone to
buy from me.
I'm there for you to convince me why
I should help you.
If you can't convince me you want help,
if you can't convince me your problem is
big enough to spend money and time on,
(14:25):
why would you buy anything anyway?
Makes a tremendous amount of sense.
So I'm trying to work with a whole
sales team to try to get them to
convert.
Pretty tough to do.
Do you like sales scripts?
Do you like a sales process to follow?
Or what can you do as a leader
to get your team to follow all of
them to follow where you're trying to get
them to go?
(14:46):
So you need a structure to sell it,
like anything.
You need a structure.
Everything you do in a sales meeting needs
to be planned and choreographed.
See, salespeople take an almost perverse sense of
pride in not being able to explain how
they do what they do, as if they're
sort of magicians and Sven Garlys.
And the reason they don't like documenting what
(15:06):
they do and the way they do it
is because if you do that, you could
be held accountable.
You see, if you don't lose a sale,
there are so many excuses you could make.
It was wrong time.
They didn't have the budget.
We weren't quite right.
Competitor beat us up on price.
There's all these excuses for why they didn't
get the deal, right?
But if you have a process that you
have to follow, you're able to specifically identify
(15:26):
where you probably went wrong.
The challenge you have is salespeople don't like
accountability.
Yeah, they like the mystique of, why'd you
win?
Well, you know, it's a great product and
I have a winning personality.
No, seriously, why'd they buy?
Like I said, we have a great product
and I've been doing this for years and
they love what we have.
That's never the reason.
I've never met anyone.
If you ask any prospect, why did you
buy from them?
(15:47):
Well, I just really liked the guy.
Doesn't often happen, especially when you're selling high
ticket items.
There's a reason.
So you need a structure.
I don't use scripts.
I've had, almost like American football, I have
set piece moves.
I know when I'm gonna do a particular
move because the prospect's gonna say a particular
thing and I'm ready for it.
This is the thing about selling.
And a lot of salespeople don't get this
(16:08):
is selling is a finite universe.
There's only so much your prospect can ever
say to you.
And within six months, you should have heard
it all, which means there is nothing that
should ever come out of a prospect's mouth
that you're not prepared for or have heard
before.
This is a problem.
Salespeople are constantly caught off guard by things
they've heard so many times before.
So why?
(16:28):
Because hope.
Hope is that it won't be that way
this time.
So they never really learn.
They just keep doing the same thing over
and over again.
They don't want control because control means accountability.
And accountability means it's my fault we lost
the deal.
It had nothing to do with the competitor.
No, it was your fault.
How did you not know that they were
talking to the competitor?
I didn't ask.
(16:48):
Why didn't you ask?
I forgot.
How the fuck can you forget?
It's your job.
Yeah?
So I'm very tough on salespeople.
If they come back from a sales meeting
and you ask them a series of questions
and they go, well, I don't know.
Well, I didn't ask that.
I think he said.
And now a quick break to hear from
our sponsor.
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(17:09):
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more at creditsuite.com forward slash consult.
So what were you doing for the last
hour?
Oh, I was vomiting on them about how
great we are.
Yeah.
That makes a lot of sense.
And I think those are all problems that
we deal with all the time.
So then you need to have some kind
of sales structure and you need to have
basically a weapon to address the things that
(17:50):
they're saying.
So how do you do that?
Do you develop a sales process to say,
hey, if they say this, then you respond
this way?
Or how do you kind of give them
that structure that they need to succeed?
Right, of course.
So a structure, I have a clearly defined
structure I work to.
Though actually the prospect has a structure that
they work to.
I call it the sales matrix.
Most people don't know they're trapped in it
until they see it.
(18:12):
But this is how a typical salesman's life
works.
They contact a prospect over the phone.
The prospect says, yes, I'm interested in what
you have.
Why don't you come and see me?
The salesman goes in.
Then the prospect lies.
They don't tell you the full truth.
Prospects always tell you half truth.
They're economical with the truth.
Think about it.
Do you lie to salespeople, Ty?
When you're out, you lie to salespeople.
(18:33):
Liars are liars, yeah.
Liars are liars.
So we all lie.
Lie strong, I say deceive.
Because sometimes they don't even know you're deceiving.
It's like a patient at the doctor.
They don't know what they should tell you.
So they leave out things they don't think
are important.
So what they do is they don't tell
you the truth.
So you go in.
You meet with this prospect.
There's a little bit of an exchange at
the beginning.
And then you do your thing.
So they'll lie to you.
(18:54):
You then, as a salesperson, because you want
to present what you do, you've always been
presenting your solution.
Answer their questions and present your solution.
So you get in, you answer your question,
present your solution.
As you're presenting your solution, the prospect's asking
you questions.
The reason they're asking you questions is because
I lied to you as to why you're
here.
I don't really want to buy your stuff.
We've already met with somebody else who does
(19:15):
what you do.
And we're just interested to see if you're
going to do what they say, because we
want to go with them.
Or we're actually going to, we're trying to
figure out how to do this internally.
There are multiple reasons why someone can invite
you in.
And there are more reasons for not buying
than there are for buying.
So you're in there.
They ask you questions.
And actually, this is funny.
You know a meeting's gone badly when a
prospect, when a salesman comes back and you
(19:35):
go, how was the meeting?
It was good.
They asked really good questions.
I'm always very suspicious of prospects that ask
very good questions.
Because if they're able to ask really good
questions about what we do, this tends to
be, they're actually only using me.
They're using me because they know a lot
about the, why are they asking me so
many good questions?
Because they're already in a process and I'm
(19:57):
probably not part of it.
So once you've finished this question and answer
session, what does every prospect try, and not
every prospect, what does every salesman try and
do at this point of the meeting?
The meeting comes to that natural crescendo.
You've had your introductions.
You've vomited on them.
They've asked you questions.
What does a salesman try and do at
this point?
Ask for the money.
Tries to close, exactly.
(20:17):
But I know that is the prospect because
this is my system.
I know that after we've done this, you're
going to try and close me.
So before you've even come in, I've already
planned how I'm going to get out of
this.
And there are three ways I do it.
I call it the mislead step.
There are three ways I mislead you.
Stalls, objections, and higher authority.
You suddenly go, so, Mr. Prospect, what do
(20:37):
you think?
How do you want to move this forward?
Look, guys, look, I really like this, but
we met with ABC company and they do
it cheaper, faster, and better.
Why can't you do this?
Or why can't you do that?
Or they do stalls.
Look, guys, it's great.
I love it.
Look, budgets won't be set probably till next
quarter.
This is definitely something we're interested though.
Yeah, or higher authority.
Hey guys, look, if it were up to
(20:57):
me, I'd start today.
Unfortunately, I'm going to run this by my
chiropodist, psychiatrist, CEO, whoever it is.
And then you think, hold up.
When we spoke on the phone, you said
you were the decision maker.
Oh, oh, ultimately I signed it off, but
I don't make this decision on my own.
So I've just spent an hour talking to
someone that's not going to make a decision.
Well, yeah, well, that's your fault.
(21:18):
You never actually clarify.
You never ask the question, right?
So then what do prospects do for you?
Because they may not be finished with you.
So particularly in the B2B world, what does
a prospect about now do?
They're not going to commit to doing anything
with you, but what do they normally ask
you to do about now for them?
You couldn't- A follow up.
Go back to them.
Yeah, you couldn't send me something, could you?
(21:38):
Send me something.
Yeah, you couldn't send me something.
So this is the quote or proposal phase
or whatever it is that you call it
in your world.
I call it document your stupidity.
That's what it is.
Document your stupidity.
So I've just spent an hour with this
guy who's not committed to anything.
Now he wants me to go away and
put on paper everything.
I've just spent an hour telling him and
(21:59):
then I send it over.
And what do you do as a salesman?
You chase and guess what happens to your
prospect?
They magically disappear.
You can't get a hold of them.
A guy you met last week that you
came back to, he was so keen.
He asked all the right questions.
He said they were interested.
I've just got to get this document over.
And you fire it off.
What happens to the prospect?
(22:19):
Gone.
You get unlimited access to voicemail.
And then this is the worst bit of
the process.
It's what I call verminization.
And I do this.
I asked my prospect, I asked salespeople, I
said, how many of you, when you're trying
to get back in touch with this really
keen prospect that you met, how many of
you had tried phoning from a different number
so they don't notice you calling?
How many of you tried phoning at odd
(22:41):
hours to catch them off guard?
Yes.
So you're now reduced to vermin scurrying through
the gutters of the sales world, trying to
get back in front of somebody.
No, it's over.
They used you.
They got you in.
They pumped you for information.
You willingly answered their questions.
You then documented it, and then they pissed
(23:02):
off.
That is the prospect system.
And people follow it.
They don't even know they're doing it until
you point it out to them.
People listening to this right now will go,
oh my God, I just did that yesterday.
Yeah, and you're gonna do it again tomorrow.
Because do you know why you do it?
Because that's how we were all taught to
buy.
When you were growing up, your mom and
dad did exactly that.
And it was programmed into you.
(23:24):
You can lie to salespeople.
You can deceive salespeople.
You can use salespeople.
Always get three quotes.
Yeah?
So that is the problem they have.
And changing that is really hard.
Getting out of that way of doing it
is hard because, and this is really important,
this hat is an allegory.
If I take this off, there is now
(23:44):
a buyer.
I spend most of my life buying stuff.
That's what I do.
I don't sell that much.
I'm a buyer.
So the average salesperson is a buyer.
So in reality, you don't have a sales
meeting.
You have two buyers talking to each other.
So when a prospect says to you, it's
really nice, guys.
Look, can you send me some, I just
need to think this over.
(24:04):
What do most people say when they hear
someone say, I need to think it over?
Oh yeah, that's okay.
No, that's fine.
I understand that.
Why do they do that?
Do you know why?
Because that's exactly what they were taught to
do growing up.
Your mom always told you, think it over.
Don't rush in.
Don't make a decision quickly.
Sleep on it.
So when you, two buyers talking to each
(24:24):
other, one's pretending to be a salesman, and
the other buyer says, I need to think
it over.
Deep down, I think, yeah, that seems fair.
I probably would too.
So they let them.
And what they don't realize is, I think
it over.
What does I think it over mean 99
% of the time?
What does it mean?
We all know what it means.
It means no.
Why do salespeople take it?
Because I think it over is hope.
(24:46):
You can come back to the office and
stick it in the pipeline at 65%.
Yeah, and then you just got to keep
chasing this guy in the hope that one
day he capitulates.
So getting out of that framework is really
tough because you've been programmed your whole life
to go along with it.
And so this is what I said, working
with me is hard because breaking that mold,
(25:06):
breaking that way of behaving, breaking that way
of thinking, well, that requires somebody who really,
really wants to do this.
And that goes back to the fundamental problem.
Most people deep down don't really want to
be in sales.
So if you don't really want to be
in sales, are you really going to spend
the time and the money to get good?
When if you do just enough to get
by, you can make it to the end,
maybe die nicely.
(25:28):
This is why it's hard sales training.
This is why most sales training doesn't work.
It's why most diets don't work.
It's got nothing to do with the diet.
It's just the fat prick won't put the
fork down.
Any advice on how to fix this frame?
Like what is involved in your process to
take somebody, which by the way, you just
described our entire sales process.
So people listening, right?
(25:49):
So if this is the way we're doing
it and have always done it, like how
do we completely, what is your framework to
change that and shift to a more successful
framework?
All right.
So the first thing you need to learn
to do is take control by closing at
the beginning.
Now, most people don't get what I mean
by closing.
Yeah, the reason you lose more deals or
don't move forward is because you close in
the wrong place.
(26:10):
You're closing where the prospect's expecting it.
Every prospect's expecting you to close after the
sort of show and tell, the sales meeting.
So you have to change how you do
that.
And so it's easier to get a no
than it is a yes.
We all know that.
See, everyone reads these books.
The problem is nobody applies any of that
stuff.
They like to have a bookshelf saying, look
(26:31):
at all the books I've read.
It's like, do you do anything in them?
Oh no, no, they're just for show, right?
So let's start going for no.
So I know that if I get in
front of a decision maker and I normally,
I sell at CEO level, president level, as
you say, in the United States.
So I know when I get in front
of them, there's a good chance I'll be
able to make the decision.
So I'm up front.
I say, look, before we start, can I
(26:51):
ask you a quick question?
I go, yeah, look, I'm not for everybody.
You may not like my style.
You may not like my approach.
You may even feel uncomfortable putting me in
front of your sales team.
So can I ask you a really direct
question?
Can you give me a no today if
you don't think we can move forwards?
Every CEO goes, of course I'd give you
a no.
I've had this, Benjamin, I'll throw you out
if I'm not interested.
Don't worry, I'll give you a no.
(27:11):
I go, great.
I go, now look, I'm going to ask
a lot of questions.
They're going to be tough.
They're going to be challenging and they're going
to be uncomfortable.
Can I do that?
Now I do that because most salespeople are
scared to ask questions.
They ask nice, simple, fact-finding questions.
No, no, no, no, no.
I'm going to go in and I'm going
to sucker punch this guy in the gut.
But I need his permission to do that.
(27:31):
Because if I want this guy to feel
something, I have to ask tough, challenging and
uncomfortable questions.
And I also make it clear that I'm
going to ask a lot of them.
Salespeople water this down because they're wimps.
They go, can I ask a few questions?
I have some questions.
I have a handful of questions.
No, I have a lot.
I'm making it clear that this is my
meeting.
So once I've done it, I said, now
look, based on your answers, if I don't
(27:51):
believe that I can help you, that you're
going to return on the investment or I'm
going to match your expectations, will you be
upset if I tell you no?
We can't move forward.
And they always go, no, no, no.
I'd rather know now.
I go, great.
Last thing then, if I don't say no
and you don't say no, what we'll do
is we'll set aside a few minutes and
agree how we move forward.
So that sounds fair.
And eventually everyone goes, yeah, yeah, that sounds
(28:14):
fair.
I go, fine.
So now what I've done is, there's a
little bit of it.
Now I've technically, I've closed them.
I'm leaving this meeting with a no or
an X step.
That's it.
That's it.
This is like being a soldier going out
to no man's land.
You either move forwards or you die.
There's no going back.
There's no other way out of this.
This is uncomfortable to do.
(28:35):
It sounds easy.
Sounds straightforward.
But you're sitting in somebody's boardroom and their
officers eating their biscuits, drinking their coffee, and
then you're telling them this is how it's
gonna be.
Very hard to do.
Most salespeople are scared.
But what if they say no?
What if they say no early?
Salespeople hate no.
I love no because no's getting closer to
the yes.
And then once I've done that, I go,
(28:55):
oh, actually, before we start, shall I tell
you what the next step is?
Because I've only got one.
Most people leave all of this stuff to
the end of the meeting.
And when you leave the tough stuff to
the end of the meeting, guess what prospects
do?
They find a way to get out of
it.
They go, well, look, maybe, guys, I don't
know if I can move forward.
Why don't you send me something?
Look, I've really gotta go.
I'm doing it at the beginning of the
meeting when there's nowhere to go.
(29:16):
I'm getting them to make a decision.
You have to make a decision at the
end of this meeting.
We either move forwards or we end it.
Now, the next step may not be by.
It all depends on your sales cycle.
For me, it is.
I've only got one step in my world.
At the end of this meeting, you either
sign up or you don't, right?
So I point out what the next step
is.
So knowing that that could be the next
(29:36):
step, do you still wanna do this meeting?
Now, if they say, this is, again, scares
the hell out of sales.
Well, what if they say no?
What if they say, I don't like the
next step, okay?
So ask yourself a logical question.
The prospect has just said they don't wanna
do your next step even if they don't
say no to you.
So why are you there?
And then there's, well, maybe.
You see the conflict they have.
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Welcome to the Business Credit and Financing Show.
Each week, we talk about the growth strategies
that matter most to entrepreneurs.
Listen in as we discuss the secrets to
getting credit and money to start and grow
your business.
And enjoy as we talk with seasoned business
owners, coaches, and industry leaders on a variety
(00:22):
of topics from advertising and marketing to the
nuts and bolts of running a highly successful
business.
And now, to introduce the host of our
show, financial expert and award-winning author, Ty
Crandall.
Hello, and thanks for joining us today.
I'm super excited you could be here because
today we're talking about one of the most
important traits you need to know and have
(00:44):
in your business, which is your ability to
actually close clients, your ability to actually close
the sale.
And we have with us today, I would
like to say one of the top experts
in the field, but I can only describe
him as the UK's absolute most hated sales
trainer, self-defined, by the way, not me,
Benjamin Dennehy.
Now he is engaging and entertaining trainer and
(01:04):
speaker who blends humor, psychology, and raw insight
to challenge everything you think you know about
sales, known as the UK's most hated sales
trainer, a title he unapologetically made up for
marketing purposes.
Benjamin isn't here to coddle, he's here to
disrupt.
So with brutal honesty and sharp observation, he
(01:25):
holds up a mirror to the sales industry,
exposing uncomfortable truths that many recognize and few
want to admit.
Now, originally called to the bar as a
qualified barista in New Zealand, Benjamin never planned
on a career in sales, like most people
in the profession, very few of sales, or
very few dream of sales as kids, yet
(01:47):
somehow find themselves selling by default, not by
design, young, articulate, and presentable.
Well, that's often it takes to land a
sales role, but doing a job you never
wanted, well, that's the recipe for mediocrity, and
Benjamin is on a mission to change that.
So through his no-nonsense, laugh-out-loud
style, he helps sales professionals break out of
(02:09):
autopilot and into purpose, he doesn't teach gimmicks,
he teaches mindset, whether speaking from a stage
or leading in a training session, he'll leave
you thinking, laughing, and maybe just a little
bit uncomfortable, and that's exactly the point.
Benjamin, what's up, man?
Thanks for joining us today.
Thanks for joining, man, that's a long bio
entry, I'm gonna have to edit, I had
no idea it was so long.
(02:29):
I didn't cut anything out, though, it's all
so good and so true, I loved every
bit of it.
It was actually Barrister, not barista, baristas make
coffee, barrister's a British attorney, a lawyer, all
right, so it's barista, I didn't know if
I just didn't pronounce it, or if I
just absolutely misread it wrong, right?
So you were making coffees then, right?
No, no, no, I trained as a lawyer.
(02:50):
Oh, you trained as a lawyer, so I
almost called you a barista.
You said barista, yeah, and I thought, I'm
not a coffee guy, I don't like coffee.
It's the same thing, people that make coffee
and serve practice law, really, isn't it the
same thing?
My cry's the same skill level, put it
that way.
It's the same skill, man, you are, and
your bio's 100% spot on, because I
(03:11):
was just laughing, you came in the room,
I was laughing, I was like, this is
hilarious, every single thing about you coming in
the room and then appearing in the room
made me laugh, so.
Oh, that pleases me, thank you.
So what happened here?
How did you get in from a non
-barista role as an attorney that you were
into sales?
Like, by the way, you know how crazy
of a jump that is?
(03:32):
Like, people that I think of in attorneys
in the States are the most conservative people,
factual people.
Like, I couldn't even imagine somebody jumping from
that field to sales.
Yeah, I'm in sales like 95% of
everybody else.
I fell into it.
I needed a job, right?
So what I did was I left my
home country of New Zealand after becoming a
(03:54):
lawyer, went to do some travel and moved
to England.
And what do you do if you're educated,
you can string a sentence together, you have
no skills, and you don't dribble?
You're pretty much qualified to be a salesman,
and that's pretty much the entry level, right?
So I needed a job.
This is it, you ask anyone, how'd you
get to sales?
I kind of fell into it, yeah?
(04:16):
But if you, you know, this is why
I point out why most salespeople are useless
at it, because no one really wants to
be there.
They're just there because they needed a job.
You go to university, you study English literature,
or gender studies, and you come out, and
you're like, no one's going to pay you
for that crap, right?
So you have to find a way to
make some money.
And sales will always take on anyone that
basically gets through the interview without being in
(04:36):
a coma.
So once you're in, you're in.
Most salespeople are stuck.
Because let me ask you this, and this
is true, this always makes me laugh, have
you ever seen a job advert that says,
wanted, former salesman?
There's no transferable skillset.
Because once you're in sales, you're stuck.
It becomes a life sentence for most people.
And most people are just doing their time,
hoping to get through, keep their head down,
(04:59):
and die.
A few make a good success of it,
but they're the few.
So I fell into sales like anybody, I
needed a job, and here I am, 20
years later, stuck, unable to get out.
Well, you've learned a lot along this path,
going from sales to sales trainer, and I
have so many sales questions, because I don't
(05:19):
know if I've ever had a sales expert
to your caliber on the show.
Okay, so here's the thing that I'm stuck
with on sales.
I've never been able to get this fixed
with our sales team.
How do you get salesmen to understand that
a prospect is worth their time?
Because it seems like everybody, I've ever hired
in sales, they just wanna sell everybody without
(05:40):
doing any kind of qualifications.
So what are some of the secrets and
keys you've learned for that?
Okay, so the number one is, most salespeople
wanna be order takers.
That's what most salespeople want.
They want people to give them money and
then take the credit for someone giving them
money.
Like I say, anyone can take money from
someone.
You can rob an old lady, you can
mug a tramp, you can do all sorts
(06:01):
of things to get money off of people,
but selling is an actual skill.
So most people don't wanna put in the
effort to learn how to sell, they just
wanna do their job.
Prospects, so what is the purpose?
If you're cold calling, for instance, what is
the purpose of a cold call?
If you were to ask yourself, I asked
this of thousands of people, they always get
it wrong.
What is the purpose of a cold call?
To make contact.
What are you trying to do?
(06:22):
You see, people say make contact.
Some say get an appointment.
Some say get a meeting.
Some say find pain.
Some say to educate.
All of those are great, but those are
all potential outcomes.
It's not purpose.
Purpose and outcome are different.
So what is the purpose?
What are we trying to do?
It's simple.
It goes back to an earlier question, which
I haven't asked.
How does a human being buy anything?
Do you know?
What's a process that a human being would
(06:44):
go through to make a decision on whether
or not they buy something?
Most people get the first bit.
So that I'm not really sure of.
I can just tell you that most people,
I think, think they're acting logically, but they
basically are acting emotionally and justifying logically.
That's the only answer I have.
So we buy emotionally.
Everything you buy is 100% emotional, but
you've got to justify it logically.
(07:05):
So emotionally, you could want something, but logically,
I can't afford it.
I really want a Ferrari.
But I can't afford it.
So that means emotionally, you want it.
Logically, you can't do it.
So what happens with most salespeople is when
they pick up the phone, they think their
job is to try and logically convince somebody
of why they should do something or why
they should meet with them.
But that's wrong, because if we buy emotion,
(07:26):
we've got to start with emotion.
So the purpose of a prospecting call is
to get someone to feel emotional about whatever
it is that you fix.
Most people don't know that.
So they don't structure their call to design
it to achieve that outcome.
Their outcome is get a meeting, get an
appointment.
So they're so focused on the end goal,
they're not looking at what they're doing to
get to where they need to be.
(07:46):
And so they have this belief that every
human they talk to should have to or
want to or should meet with them.
That's not true.
There's only so many people out there that
I can get to emotionally connect to what
I fix.
So my job is to figure out how
to express that and get people to come
in.
So this is why most cold calls fail,
because they're going about it the wrong way.
It's just number after number after number.
And you do enough shit enough, you make
(08:08):
results.
Don't get me wrong.
But there's no control.
And that's the other thing.
Most salespeople have no control over what they're
doing.
They simply react to the prospect.
So what's some of the keys to take
control?
One, you've got to get rid of all
the rules and beliefs that you were taught
as a child that you don't realize impact
you so fundamentally.
Let's go again.
We can go back to prospecting.
(08:29):
Most people hate prospecting, right?
Most people can't stand it.
Even people in- It's not a prospect,
yeah.
Yeah, if you've been on a sales floor,
I've done this, I've done training, done a
morning session.
And said, okay, guys, let's go hit the
phones.
Do you know how long it takes for
me making that statement to someone actually picking
up a telephone?
Oh my God, the routine they go through,
got to turn on the computer, got to
(08:50):
go into the serum, then start flicking through.
No, can't call him.
Can't call him.
Suddenly they've got to- I've just got
to add a note to this one.
I've just realized something.
It's like, for God's sake, pick up the
- Why are you prevaricating procrastinating?
It's because we were taught things.
We were always taught, never talk to strangers.
No one ever told us that rule doesn't
apply as a grown-up.
So it's there.
We were always taught it's rude to interrupt.
(09:12):
No one ever told you that that doesn't
apply as a grown-up.
So here you are, a grown-up adult,
told pick up the phone.
And for some reason you're finding ways to
avoid it because deep down you're about to
do something your mother's screaming in your ear.
Don't do, you're going to interrupt a stranger.
What are you going to say to him
when you get through?
And the other thing is you've been programmed
to answer every question that's been thrown at
you.
(09:32):
So your fear is, but what if they
ask me a question I don't know the
answer to?
Then you're free.
So you listen and you watch salespeople.
And it's like watching a room full of
10 year old children try to impress a
stranger.
It's pathetic, right?
So the way we take control is by
taking control of ourselves.
First things first is I can interrupt anyone
I want.
(09:53):
That's all right.
No one can stop me.
I'm allowed to talk to any stranger that
I want.
I believe that if my product does what
I say it does, I believe when I'm
picking up, do you know what's going through
the head of the average salesperson when they
are prospecting, particularly at senior director level.
Normally it's, please don't answer.
Please don't answer.
Please don't answer.
Yeah.
And then when they do answer, they're like
(10:14):
a deer in headlights.
Ah, ah, ah, yes, well, hi, my name's
Ben.
And then I start to vomit on them
about who they are and what they do.
What you've got to do is take it
back.
When I'm dialing the phone, I'm thinking this
prick had better answer because if he don't
answer, he's wasting my time because this could
be the best call this guy takes all
day.
Because if he has the problems I fix
(10:34):
and I can get him to recognize it,
he shouldn't be grateful that I've given up
my time to call him.
So it is a clear mindset shift.
You have to change how you view yourself
as a salesperson.
Most people see salespeople as, well, let me
ask you a question.
If you were to ask the average salesperson,
what's the first word that comes into your
head when you think salesman?
You normally get something like sleazy.
(10:56):
That's even from sales.
Sleazy, pushy, yeah.
That's it, yeah.
And you're in sales.
So salespeople deep down subconsciously think they're sleazy
scumbags.
No wonder so many of them struggle to
take control.
They hate who they are at a fundamental
level, right?
So you've got to switch that.
Selling is a noble profession.
The only problem with it is, is it's
(11:16):
not a profession.
It's full of carpetbaggers.
Go to a party, meet a doctor, meet
a surgeon, meet a lawyer.
How'd you become a doctor?
Oh, I've always wanted to be it.
Always wanted to be it.
How'd you become a lawyer?
Oh yeah, I've always had this commitment to
justice.
Ask a salesman, oh, I needed a job,
you know?
And yet it's still called a profession.
How many years have you been studying?
Well, we had three days product knowledge.
(11:37):
I got a new suit, a CRM system
and a car.
You are one, yeah?
No, seven years at medical school, four years
at law school, years of being junior in
your profession, studying, learning.
Salesman, that's it.
You're automatically won the moment you pass the
interview.
So this is why they have no control.
They've never been taught how to sell.
They've never studied selling.
(11:57):
They just told, you're a sales professional.
It's pathetic.
So what do we do to change mindset?
Because that's a huge hurdle to overcome, especially
since we're talking about stuff that has been
ingrained from childhood forward.
The mindset follows behavior.
So you have to change your behavior.
It's like going to the gym.
You want to lose weight, but you hate
going to the gym, but you force yourself
(12:19):
to go.
And after a while, it ceases to be
a chore.
It becomes a part of your lifestyle.
You actually got used to going to the
gym every day at the same time and
following a certain routine.
After a few months, you actually feel bad
if you kind of missed it because you've
actually got so used to doing it.
So it's the same with sales.
You have to learn how to take control.
You have to change your behavior.
(12:40):
So the first thing you've got to learn
to do is, let's say you're in a
sales meeting.
The first thing you have to do is
take control.
Most salespeople don't take control of the sales
meeting.
It's always generally led by the prospect because
they always demur to the person they think's
got the money.
Well, the man with the gold makes the
rules, remember?
That's a rule we were taught as kids.
The man with the gold makes the rules.
He's got the money.
(13:01):
You want the money.
Yeah?
So they also, this is one thing I
love.
Salespeople are addicted to something I call the
most powerful drug in the world.
It's called hopium.
Yeah?
Hopium.
Every sales meeting starts off with, I hope
this goes in the right way.
I hope we get the outcome that way.
It's always hope-driven.
It's never fact-driven.
It's never skill-driven.
(13:22):
Let's go in, vomit all over them, hoping
that we're in some sort of German nightclub
and we find someone that loves being vomited
on.
And at the end of that, they're hopefully
gonna give us some money.
So taking control is controlling the meeting from
the outset, making it clear what's gonna happen
at the end.
This is your meeting, not the prospect's.
You're here to figure out if they should
be your customer.
(13:43):
I'm not here to convince you to buy
from me.
That's a huge shift in behavior.
I'm here for you to figure out if
I should sell to you.
Because I have the solution, you have the
problem.
You don't have the control.
The only thing you have is money.
Bad luck for you.
I don't need your money.
I do quite well out of this.
So convince me.
Why should you be our customer?
(14:05):
That fundamentally changes the entire meeting structure.
You're in control.
There's loads behind that, but that's the fundamental.
I'm not there to convince anyone to buy
from me because I can't convince anyone to
buy from me.
I'm there for you to convince me why
I should help you.
If you can't convince me you want help,
if you can't convince me your problem is
big enough to spend money and time on,
(14:25):
why would you buy anything anyway?
Makes a tremendous amount of sense.
So I'm trying to work with a whole
sales team to try to get them to
convert.
Pretty tough to do.
Do you like sales scripts?
Do you like a sales process to follow?
Or what can you do as a leader
to get your team to follow all of
them to follow where you're trying to get
them to go?
(14:46):
So you need a structure to sell it,
like anything.
You need a structure.
Everything you do in a sales meeting needs
to be planned and choreographed.
See, salespeople take an almost perverse sense of
pride in not being able to explain how
they do what they do, as if they're
sort of magicians and Sven Garlys.
And the reason they don't like documenting what
(15:06):
they do and the way they do it
is because if you do that, you could
be held accountable.
You see, if you don't lose a sale,
there are so many excuses you could make.
It was wrong time.
They didn't have the budget.
We weren't quite right.
Competitor beat us up on price.
There's all these excuses for why they didn't
get the deal, right?
But if you have a process that you
have to follow, you're able to specifically identify
(15:26):
where you probably went wrong.
The challenge you have is salespeople don't like
accountability.
Yeah, they like the mystique of, why'd you
win?
Well, you know, it's a great product and
I have a winning personality.
No, seriously, why'd they buy?
Like I said, we have a great product
and I've been doing this for years and
they love what we have.
That's never the reason.
I've never met anyone.
If you ask any prospect, why did you
buy from them?
(15:47):
Well, I just really liked the guy.
Doesn't often happen, especially when you're selling high
ticket items.
There's a reason.
So you need a structure.
I don't use scripts.
I've had, almost like American football, I have
set piece moves.
I know when I'm gonna do a particular
move because the prospect's gonna say a particular
thing and I'm ready for it.
This is the thing about selling.
And a lot of salespeople don't get this
(16:08):
is selling is a finite universe.
There's only so much your prospect can ever
say to you.
And within six months, you should have heard
it all, which means there is nothing that
should ever come out of a prospect's mouth
that you're not prepared for or have heard
before.
This is a problem.
Salespeople are constantly caught off guard by things
they've heard so many times before.
So why?
(16:28):
Because hope.
Hope is that it won't be that way
this time.
So they never really learn.
They just keep doing the same thing over
and over again.
They don't want control because control means accountability.
And accountability means it's my fault we lost
the deal.
It had nothing to do with the competitor.
No, it was your fault.
How did you not know that they were
talking to the competitor?
I didn't ask.
(16:48):
Why didn't you ask?
I forgot.
How the fuck can you forget?
It's your job.
Yeah?
So I'm very tough on salespeople.
If they come back from a sales meeting
and you ask them a series of questions
and they go, well, I don't know.
Well, I didn't ask that.
I think he said.
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So what were you doing for the last
hour?
Oh, I was vomiting on them about how
great we are.
Yeah.
That makes a lot of sense.
And I think those are all problems that
we deal with all the time.
So then you need to have some kind
of sales structure and you need to have
basically a weapon to address the things that
(17:50):
they're saying.
So how do you do that?
Do you develop a sales process to say,
hey, if they say this, then you respond
this way?
Or how do you kind of give them
that structure that they need to succeed?
Right, of course.
So a structure, I have a clearly defined
structure I work to.
Though actually the prospect has a structure that
they work to.
I call it the sales matrix.
Most people don't know they're trapped in it
until they see it.
(18:12):
But this is how a typical salesman's life
works.
They contact a prospect over the phone.
The prospect says, yes, I'm interested in what
you have.
Why don't you come and see me?
The salesman goes in.
Then the prospect lies.
They don't tell you the full truth.
Prospects always tell you half truth.
They're economical with the truth.
Think about it.
Do you lie to salespeople, Ty?
When you're out, you lie to salespeople.
(18:33):
Liars are liars, yeah.
Liars are liars.
So we all lie.
Lie strong, I say deceive.
Because sometimes they don't even know you're deceiving.
It's like a patient at the doctor.
They don't know what they should tell you.
So they leave out things they don't think
are important.
So what they do is they don't tell
you the truth.
So you go in.
You meet with this prospect.
There's a little bit of an exchange at
the beginning.
And then you do your thing.
So they'll lie to you.
(18:54):
You then, as a salesperson, because you want
to present what you do, you've always been
presenting your solution.
Answer their questions and present your solution.
So you get in, you answer your question,
present your solution.
As you're presenting your solution, the prospect's asking
you questions.
The reason they're asking you questions is because
I lied to you as to why you're
here.
I don't really want to buy your stuff.
We've already met with somebody else who does
(19:15):
what you do.
And we're just interested to see if you're
going to do what they say, because we
want to go with them.
Or we're actually going to, we're trying to
figure out how to do this internally.
There are multiple reasons why someone can invite
you in.
And there are more reasons for not buying
than there are for buying.
So you're in there.
They ask you questions.
And actually, this is funny.
You know a meeting's gone badly when a
prospect, when a salesman comes back and you
(19:35):
go, how was the meeting?
It was good.
They asked really good questions.
I'm always very suspicious of prospects that ask
very good questions.
Because if they're able to ask really good
questions about what we do, this tends to
be, they're actually only using me.
They're using me because they know a lot
about the, why are they asking me so
many good questions?
Because they're already in a process and I'm
(19:57):
probably not part of it.
So once you've finished this question and answer
session, what does every prospect try, and not
every prospect, what does every salesman try and
do at this point of the meeting?
The meeting comes to that natural crescendo.
You've had your introductions.
You've vomited on them.
They've asked you questions.
What does a salesman try and do at
this point?
Ask for the money.
Tries to close, exactly.
(20:17):
But I know that is the prospect because
this is my system.
I know that after we've done this, you're
going to try and close me.
So before you've even come in, I've already
planned how I'm going to get out of
this.
And there are three ways I do it.
I call it the mislead step.
There are three ways I mislead you.
Stalls, objections, and higher authority.
You suddenly go, so, Mr. Prospect, what do
(20:37):
you think?
How do you want to move this forward?
Look, guys, look, I really like this, but
we met with ABC company and they do
it cheaper, faster, and better.
Why can't you do this?
Or why can't you do that?
Or they do stalls.
Look, guys, it's great.
I love it.
Look, budgets won't be set probably till next
quarter.
This is definitely something we're interested though.
Yeah, or higher authority.
Hey guys, look, if it were up to
(20:57):
me, I'd start today.
Unfortunately, I'm going to run this by my
chiropodist, psychiatrist, CEO, whoever it is.
And then you think, hold up.
When we spoke on the phone, you said
you were the decision maker.
Oh, oh, ultimately I signed it off, but
I don't make this decision on my own.
So I've just spent an hour talking to
someone that's not going to make a decision.
Well, yeah, well, that's your fault.
(21:18):
You never actually clarify.
You never ask the question, right?
So then what do prospects do for you?
Because they may not be finished with you.
So particularly in the B2B world, what does
a prospect about now do?
They're not going to commit to doing anything
with you, but what do they normally ask
you to do about now for them?
You couldn't- A follow up.
Go back to them.
Yeah, you couldn't send me something, could you?
(21:38):
Send me something.
Yeah, you couldn't send me something.
So this is the quote or proposal phase
or whatever it is that you call it
in your world.
I call it document your stupidity.
That's what it is.
Document your stupidity.
So I've just spent an hour with this
guy who's not committed to anything.
Now he wants me to go away and
put on paper everything.
I've just spent an hour telling him and
(21:59):
then I send it over.
And what do you do as a salesman?
You chase and guess what happens to your
prospect?
They magically disappear.
You can't get a hold of them.
A guy you met last week that you
came back to, he was so keen.
He asked all the right questions.
He said they were interested.
I've just got to get this document over.
And you fire it off.
What happens to the prospect?
(22:19):
Gone.
You get unlimited access to voicemail.
And then this is the worst bit of
the process.
It's what I call verminization.
And I do this.
I asked my prospect, I asked salespeople, I
said, how many of you, when you're trying
to get back in touch with this really
keen prospect that you met, how many of
you had tried phoning from a different number
so they don't notice you calling?
How many of you tried phoning at odd
(22:41):
hours to catch them off guard?
Yes.
So you're now reduced to vermin scurrying through
the gutters of the sales world, trying to
get back in front of somebody.
No, it's over.
They used you.
They got you in.
They pumped you for information.
You willingly answered their questions.
You then documented it, and then they pissed
(23:02):
off.
That is the prospect system.
And people follow it.
They don't even know they're doing it until
you point it out to them.
People listening to this right now will go,
oh my God, I just did that yesterday.
Yeah, and you're gonna do it again tomorrow.
Because do you know why you do it?
Because that's how we were all taught to
buy.
When you were growing up, your mom and
dad did exactly that.
And it was programmed into you.
(23:24):
You can lie to salespeople.
You can deceive salespeople.
You can use salespeople.
Always get three quotes.
Yeah?
So that is the problem they have.
And changing that is really hard.
Getting out of that way of doing it
is hard because, and this is really important,
this hat is an allegory.
If I take this off, there is now
(23:44):
a buyer.
I spend most of my life buying stuff.
That's what I do.
I don't sell that much.
I'm a buyer.
So the average salesperson is a buyer.
So in reality, you don't have a sales
meeting.
You have two buyers talking to each other.
So when a prospect says to you, it's
really nice, guys.
Look, can you send me some, I just
need to think this over.
(24:04):
What do most people say when they hear
someone say, I need to think it over?
Oh yeah, that's okay.
No, that's fine.
I understand that.
Why do they do that?
Do you know why?
Because that's exactly what they were taught to
do growing up.
Your mom always told you, think it over.
Don't rush in.
Don't make a decision quickly.
Sleep on it.
So when you, two buyers talking to each
(24:24):
other, one's pretending to be a salesman, and
the other buyer says, I need to think
it over.
Deep down, I think, yeah, that seems fair.
I probably would too.
So they let them.
And what they don't realize is, I think
it over.
What does I think it over mean 99
% of the time?
What does it mean?
We all know what it means.
It means no.
Why do salespeople take it?
Because I think it over is hope.
(24:46):
You can come back to the office and
stick it in the pipeline at 65%.
Yeah, and then you just got to keep
chasing this guy in the hope that one
day he capitulates.
So getting out of that framework is really
tough because you've been programmed your whole life
to go along with it.
And so this is what I said, working
with me is hard because breaking that mold,
(25:06):
breaking that way of behaving, breaking that way
of thinking, well, that requires somebody who really,
really wants to do this.
And that goes back to the fundamental problem.
Most people deep down don't really want to
be in sales.
So if you don't really want to be
in sales, are you really going to spend
the time and the money to get good?
When if you do just enough to get
by, you can make it to the end,
maybe die nicely.
(25:28):
This is why it's hard sales training.
This is why most sales training doesn't work.
It's why most diets don't work.
It's got nothing to do with the diet.
It's just the fat prick won't put the
fork down.
Any advice on how to fix this frame?
Like what is involved in your process to
take somebody, which by the way, you just
described our entire sales process.
So people listening, right?
(25:49):
So if this is the way we're doing
it and have always done it, like how
do we completely, what is your framework to
change that and shift to a more successful
framework?
All right.
So the first thing you need to learn
to do is take control by closing at
the beginning.
Now, most people don't get what I mean
by closing.
Yeah, the reason you lose more deals or
don't move forward is because you close in
the wrong place.
(26:10):
You're closing where the prospect's expecting it.
Every prospect's expecting you to close after the
sort of show and tell, the sales meeting.
So you have to change how you do
that.
And so it's easier to get a no
than it is a yes.
We all know that.
See, everyone reads these books.
The problem is nobody applies any of that
stuff.
They like to have a bookshelf saying, look
(26:31):
at all the books I've read.
It's like, do you do anything in them?
Oh no, no, they're just for show, right?
So let's start going for no.
So I know that if I get in
front of a decision maker and I normally,
I sell at CEO level, president level, as
you say, in the United States.
So I know when I get in front
of them, there's a good chance I'll be
able to make the decision.
So I'm up front.
I say, look, before we start, can I
(26:51):
ask you a quick question?
I go, yeah, look, I'm not for everybody.
You may not like my style.
You may not like my approach.
You may even feel uncomfortable putting me in
front of your sales team.
So can I ask you a really direct
question?
Can you give me a no today if
you don't think we can move forwards?
Every CEO goes, of course I'd give you
a no.
I've had this, Benjamin, I'll throw you out
if I'm not interested.
Don't worry, I'll give you a no.
(27:11):
I go, great.
I go, now look, I'm going to ask
a lot of questions.
They're going to be tough.
They're going to be challenging and they're going
to be uncomfortable.
Can I do that?
Now I do that because most salespeople are
scared to ask questions.
They ask nice, simple, fact-finding questions.
No, no, no, no, no.
I'm going to go in and I'm going
to sucker punch this guy in the gut.
But I need his permission to do that.
(27:31):
Because if I want this guy to feel
something, I have to ask tough, challenging and
uncomfortable questions.
And I also make it clear that I'm
going to ask a lot of them.
Salespeople water this down because they're wimps.
They go, can I ask a few questions?
I have some questions.
I have a handful of questions.
No, I have a lot.
I'm making it clear that this is my
meeting.
So once I've done it, I said, now
look, based on your answers, if I don't
(27:51):
believe that I can help you, that you're
going to return on the investment or I'm
going to match your expectations, will you be
upset if I tell you no?
We can't move forward.
And they always go, no, no, no.
I'd rather know now.
I go, great.
Last thing then, if I don't say no
and you don't say no, what we'll do
is we'll set aside a few minutes and
agree how we move forward.
So that sounds fair.
And eventually everyone goes, yeah, yeah, that sounds
(28:14):
fair.
I go, fine.
So now what I've done is, there's a
little bit of it.
Now I've technically, I've closed them.
I'm leaving this meeting with a no or
an X step.
That's it.
That's it.
This is like being a soldier going out
to no man's land.
You either move forwards or you die.
There's no going back.
There's no other way out of this.
This is uncomfortable to do.
(28:35):
It sounds easy.
Sounds straightforward.
But you're sitting in somebody's boardroom and their
officers eating their biscuits, drinking their coffee, and
then you're telling them this is how it's
gonna be.
Very hard to do.
Most salespeople are scared.
But what if they say no?
What if they say no early?
Salespeople hate no.
I love no because no's getting closer to
the yes.
And then once I've done that, I go,
(28:55):
oh, actually, before we start, shall I tell
you what the next step is?
Because I've only got one.
Most people leave all of this stuff to
the end of the meeting.
And when you leave the tough stuff to
the end of the meeting, guess what prospects
do?
They find a way to get out of
it.
They go, well, look, maybe, guys, I don't
know if I can move forward.
Why don't you send me something?
Look, I've really gotta go.
I'm doing it at the beginning of the
meeting when there's nowhere to go.
(29:16):
I'm getting them to make a decision.
You have to make a decision at the
end of this meeting.
We either move forwards or we end it.
Now, the next step may not be by.
It all depends on your sales cycle.
For me, it is.
I've only got one step in my world.
At the end of this meeting, you either
sign up or you don't, right?
So I point out what the next step
is.
So knowing that that could be the next
(29:36):
step, do you still wanna do this meeting?
Now, if they say, this is, again, scares
the hell out of sales.
Well, what if they say no?
What if they say, I don't like the
next step, okay?
So ask yourself a logical question.
The prospect has just said they don't wanna
do your next step even if they don't
say no to you.
So why are you there?
And then there's, well, maybe.
You see the conflict they have.
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