January 10, 2025 • 51 mins
🎙️ Welcome to the first episode of The Chad Gonzales Show!
Today, Chad sits down with his close friend and minister of the Gospel, Jim Hockaday. Together, they dive deep into faith, ministry, and living a supernatural life in Christ. You won’t want to miss this inspiring conversation!
For more information about Jim, go to: www.JimHockaday.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Hey everybody, I'm so excited to be with you today.
We've got a great show and I've got my dear friend Jim Hockaday.
Now if you've been following me for a while, you've heard me mention his name.
I've told people for many years that if it wasn't for Jim, I probably wouldn't be where Iam today.
A little over 20 years ago, I was looking for somebody that was getting some results andteaching some of the things I was starting to kind of see in scripture.
(00:27):
And he was the one person I found.
just really inspired me to begin going after it.
So I just always become a sounding board for me and just really, really excited to havehim here with us.
So, Jim, why don't you tell everybody kind of a little bit about yourself, what you'vebeen doing, and then we'll get into some, some good stuff here.
Yeah, sure, that sounds great.
(00:47):
Well, first, let me just comment on your comment.
Thank you for that compliment.
But Chad, you would have figured it out.
You didn't need me.
You would have figured it out.
It's just, know, Brother Hagen, when I was put in charge over Prayer and Healing School,this was back in 1994, and I was there for 10 years till 2004.
(01:10):
Before that, just giving a little history.
I was saved when I was young, brought up in a denominational church that did not believein healing.
Now, I mean, if it happened, we certainly wouldn't call it the devil, we'd call it God,but we didn't know how to exercise any faith for healing.
And it was just something that we never saw and we prayed for people, but never saw themhealed.
(01:34):
So there was no sense of...
any type of testimony that we could rely on to believe God for the future.
So that's my background.
came to Ramah, started, it was in music, singing in different groups and traveling andended up at Ramah.
Of course, I was thrilled with what I learned at Ramah and the truth that I heard.
(01:59):
I I learned more in my first week with the little...
video that they played for one week of Fred Price and Faith, Foolishness and Presumption.
I learned more in that week right there than I had my entire life.
And so what a great opportunity.
And then one step after another, before I was graduated in 1988 from Rayma, I was hired onto sing with the Rayma Singers in Band.
(02:24):
That was the crusade team for Brother Hagen.
And I was there for seven years.
Last few years, I managed the group, my wife Erin.
We were married in 91.
She came on and sang with us.
about two and a half years and traveled as well.
So wonderful, wonderful times being around Brother Hagen, being close to him.
But then I was asked to come off the road and do the prayer and healing school.
(02:46):
And I remember asking Brother Hagen, said, so you know, you're gonna help me with this,right?
And he looked at me and he laughed and he said, no, I'm not gonna help you.
And I said, what's the deal?
I said, it's your thing, it's not mine.
He goes, well, it's your thing now.
He said, I had to get it by myself.
He said, you get it by yourself.
And you know, truly, when you're hungry for something, it's nice to be able to have asounding board.
(03:10):
I think that's great.
In fact, Chad, you can become to me a sounding board now as well.
mean, once you, you know, someone was maybe younger than you and they grabbed a hold ofsome things you had that helped them get started.
But then once they take off and make it theirs.
then now we're equal.
I can learn as much from you as you can learn from me.
And so it's a wonderful, wonderful thing that God does to mature us and grow us into thethings that we're called to do.
(03:37):
And if you're hungry for the call, you'll figure it out.
And that's what happened in prayer and healing school.
We began to figure it out.
But know, Chad, it came with, I don't want to say a price because that gets taken wrong.
Like I lost half my life.
I didn't, I had a great life, but it did come with a price.
(03:58):
The price was I had to lay down my pride and open up my heart for God to change what waswrong in my perspective that didn't work until we got it to work.
And that becomes a little bit of my background.
And it still is today, one of my mantras, which is, if you're not willing to be wrong,you'll never be right.
(04:20):
If you can't lose something, you'll never have it.
And if you're not willing to die, you won't really experience life.
And so, step by step, we began to see some things that worked.
And God began to teach us and train us.
And then I've watched individuals like yourself and others who have...
picked up, well, just whatever I could give.
(04:42):
I don't have it all, but they picked up some of the things that I was able to share andthen ran with it and made it their own.
And now you guys are doing everything that I could do and better.
So I'm excited to be connected with you, Chad.
Man, I'm just honored to know you.
I really have told people like, because I got to remember when I was at Bible school, Iwas just hungry because I grew up in church, grew up in a good, you know, spirit filled
(05:10):
charismatic word of faith church, never really saw anything.
And then when I went to Bible school, still never really saw anything.
And but in my studies, I was just kind of reading some things.
And I remember my, it was my former youth pastor right before I went to Ramah, my formeryouth pastor.
had came up and gave me a book and it was that it was the book that the Copeland's putout, the life sermons and boldness, know, John G.
(05:34):
Lake.
I didn't know who John G.
Lake was, never heard about it.
I've got, I've got a copy right here, like a, I love that book.
And I remember reading that and I'm like, man, I've never heard some of these things.
I've never heard a lot of these things.
And, but then, you know, you don't want to get off doctrinally.
And so I'm kind of playing it safe, but then
(05:56):
I keep seeing this stuff, you know, my study time.
And so I wanted to get involved in, in prayer and healing school when I was there, but Icouldn't because of, of playing basketball and then I had to work, you know, graveyard
shifts and stuff.
And so it was after I graduated.
Yeah, it was after I graduated, Dave Fowler, he actually, he was, he stayed that last yearyou were there and he was a healing tech that last year.
(06:24):
And so every few days, you know, we would text back and forth and he'd tell me aboutthings that he was learning and stuff like that.
And, and I just got so excited because I was like, my gosh, finally there's, there'sactually somebody who believes these things and teaching these things.
knew you were getting good results.
And that's all I needed.
I just needed one person that I respected.
I saw that there was fruit that was teaching.
(06:45):
I just needed one person to show me that it was possible.
And that's all I needed.
And so we just ran after it, but it's just been cool over the years.
especially I'd say probably the last five, six years, like I've intentionally, it soundsbad, but the intention is good.
I've intentionally not listened to anything you've talked about, you know, not listen toyour, anything you've done on YouTube or anything, just to come back after a year or two
(07:13):
and kind of see where the Lord's been kind of leading you.
And it's been a really, really interesting to see that it's basically the same path forthe most part of where it's been leading me to.
And it's just really cool to see that.
Maybe you could share that for a moment.
How do you describe, now here I am interviewing you, how do you describe or summarize thepath that he's leading you on?
(07:38):
Because that'll give me a chance maybe to share what the Lord's been doing with us too.
Well, I would say for me, so we started our first church in 2006.
And when we started our church, I three years removed from Bible school.
And I just wanted to see miracles.
Like, I was so hungry for it.
I wanted to experience God.
I wanted to experience the supernatural.
(08:00):
And so when we wanted to start our church, was literally, it was the intent of we'reseeing miracles or we're going home.
I didn't want to be just another church on the corner.
And so it was very, in one sense, selfish.
I just wanted it from me.
And so that was where things started out.
I wanted to experience these things.
But then we just started seeing such phenomenal results over the years that my attitudestarted changing somewhat where I didn't want it just for me, I wanted it for the people
(08:30):
because I was seeing the results that we were getting and I wanted to be able to helppeople.
And all of this was being taught from our union identity with Christ.
And that's why we were seeing such great results, because we were getting people's eyesoff of them and their faith and their confession and this and that and getting it back
onto Jesus and the great big Christ in them.
(08:51):
But then over time, things are shifting for me even more so where it wasn't just about mewanting to see miracles and it wasn't just about getting the miracles and the healing for
people.
It ultimately got to the place of, just want to know Him.
And so,
the last couple of years, I've really been going down this path of just the seeing andhearing from him, experiencing him, knowing him that kind of like what Brother Hagen, I'll
(09:21):
never forget this statement that Brother Hagen made is my very last class with him.
And I know he'd said this to lots of people, but I mean, this was the thing that stood outto me, my very last class.
And he made this statement or two statements.
The first one was this.
I remember where I was sitting and he said, he said, I'm 86 years old.
and where I'm finishing, you can start.
(09:42):
That one grabbed my attention.
And so I grabbed a hold of that.
My first thought was, he's crazy.
Like, I'm a, you know, I know where I've come from, but you're saying I can start whereyou're finishing.
But he was, meant it.
And so I believe that, grab a hold of it.
But number two, the thing that really got me was this.
He said, at this point in my life, God is just as real to me as my wife who sleeps in bednext to me.
(10:06):
And I remember him making that statement.
And my first thought was,
You're nuts.
Now I was 26 years old, don't know anything.
My first thought was, you're crazy.
Like that's not even possible.
Yet there was the part of me that was so hungering and yearning that was like, okay, butif that is possible, I want that.
(10:26):
And so that's the path I've been on these last few years.
And that's where I've really seen, you know, if I can just, from the place of myawareness,
my consciousness of him, the abiding in him.
If I can just stay in that place, all the other stuff, know, byproducts are just easy andnatural and normal.
(10:48):
So I remember every day walking from, you you remember, you know, at the campus, there wasa prayer and healing center.
Actually, it doesn't exist anymore.
It just says prayer, prayer.
Preschool or Prescenter.
it says.
(11:08):
They took the healing off.
But anyhow, it was its own separate building.
That's where my office was.
And I'd have to walk from there over to SDC.
That's a building, SDC 1, room 1278.
remember that?
And then next to it was room 3456 or something like that.
(11:28):
But anyhow, I'd have to walk over every day to prayer school and the healing schoolbecause the prayer and healing building, we had a morning healing school there.
That's where I would work with the healing techs and all that kind of thing.
And that's where we had prayer rooms where we would pray.
We had back then, you know, there were 600 people that we were monitoring in prayergroups.
(11:49):
I mean, that was a lot, you know.
And of course, Leanne Sosby, now it was Leanne Merrill back then, but Leanne wasinstrumental in helping me.
So anyhow, every day when I walked over, this is my prayer, I mean, every day, and becauseit was heartfelt, I said, Lord, I'm not doing this for me, I'm not doing this for the
people, I'm doing it for one reason.
I said, I want people, I want miracles to happen so people can see who you really are,because right now they're not seeing truly who you are.
(12:19):
I said, we can preach it, but we're not experiencing it.
We can see it in the Bible, but we're not experiencing it.
I said, people need to experience you as you are.
said, so number one, said, whatever I have to do for you to be free to do what you dobest.
I said, that's where I'm at right now.
And I prayed that every single day.
And that's some of the reasons why we did.
(12:41):
some of the crazy things we did.
mean, Chad, you know, we dragged people around the room, you know what mean?
We slapped people upside the head.
We didn't mean to do it, but I mean, it happened.
I mean, everywhere I go today, it's a crazy people come up and say, do you know what youdid to me back in 1997?
It's like, you know, there's no telling what, please, what was it?
know, well, you, and then they go ahead and tell me the stories.
(13:04):
So, but we were just hungry.
to move beyond ourselves and you can't move beyond yourself until you're in him.
Because once you're beyond yourself, there's nothing.
But the moment you're in him, that's when things change.
And we began to see things take place.
Well,
A significant change happened in my life in 2011.
(13:26):
I've already been out of prayer and healing school.
I left there in 2004.
So, 2011, I got really hungry again.
And I'm hungrier now more than ever.
I got really hungry again in the arena of, this ought to work in my own personal life justas well as I see it work in ministry to other people.
(13:47):
And I'm not seeing that like I ought to.
And I prayed a really good prayer.
And again, because I remember my prayer where everything changed, Chad, in because you ifyou remember my testimony, the first three months from September 1994 to January of 1995,
(14:07):
those first three months there.
And I'm not actually including December, you know, because that's when I actually prayed.
But those first three months, we didn't see anything happen.
I mean, if we had four healings, that was the most.
I'm talking about instantaneous things, you know.
(14:28):
And you say, well, you the Bible says you recover.
Yes, you do recover.
But if you recover 40 years later, that's not a recovery.
OK?
So the longest recovery that Jesus had in his life was getting out of the grave in threedays.
So if you're past three days in your recovery, then you ought to actually go back andcheck up on what you're doing and what you're believing because maybe you're in the way,
(14:54):
because it doesn't have to take that long.
Now I appreciate when people say, over the course of the year I got better and better.
Well, praise the Lord, they were receiving more more revelation.
But that's what we were experiencing, almost nothing.
And so I got on my face and asked God to change me and to...
Actually rearrange who I was I said Lord you've got to change me.
(15:16):
I'm the reason why people aren't getting healed I said it's not the people and it's notyou.
It's me And that's when he began to change me and Chad you mentioned John G.
Lake's book Well, that's when I began to go back to that book and read it and to be honestThat's when it began to make sense to me
Because as a Rayma student, we were given that little book, remember?
(15:38):
The God Men and Other Sermons by John G.
Lake.
It was a little tiny book, almost pamphlet-like, but it was maybe about that thick.
It had probably about seven, maybe eight sermons of his in there, and they were all reallygood.
The God Men sermon, of course, was off the chart.
Well, I didn't understand that when I read it when I was going to Rayma.
But when I hungered for more, that's when I started to understand it.
(16:02):
And I began to see that we had to be the initiator of the healing as the minister, notjust trying to train the people to get enough faith to be healed.
mean, really and truly, you don't see Jesus sitting down and then teaching people for fourhours to be healed and then having a ministry line.
You know, he just healed.
where I started seeing the results was when I took the responsibility.
(16:25):
That's right.
Yeah.
When you take the responsibility, that's when the anointing will flow.
When you're putting the responsibility on the people, very seldom do you see the anointingflow like it ought to flow.
So things began to change.
In 2011, I prayed another really good prayer, and I'll condense this real quickly here.
And God sent me somebody.
(16:45):
It was a very unusual individual, a cowboy, you know, that wasn't even saved.
that got saved, but didn't know that he was actually a genius.
So he was not just listening to me preach, he was figuring out what I was doing.
And he began to see that we should be experiencing God so much more.
And his experiences went beyond me within a day, where he just went to heaven and then hewould go over and over and over again and spend time with God in that kind of tangibility.
(17:15):
And it made me really hungry to realize, my goodness,
We can know God so much more than we do.
And all of a sudden, Brother Hagen's saying, when I lay in bed at night next to my wife,Aretha, the Holy Ghost is more real to me than she is.
Now, that doesn't mean that he can't touch her and her be real.
(17:35):
What he's saying is the moment he brings his focus into spiritual things, spiritual thingsbecome just as real and more so than his wife.
which means we can have that kind of tangibility.
And that's what I've been running after the last 10 years and more so.
(17:55):
In fact, I'll just bring this out.
We have a new book called What's Next Papa?
And it's all about experiencing God and the whole idea to say, what's next papa now that Ihave grandchildren.
We've got five grandchildren, which is crazy.
You know, they don't just do something with you once.
They wear you out.
(18:16):
It's like, okay, you know, grandpa, what are we going to do next?
What are we going to do next?
And the beauty about it is that you're interacting with each other in such reality andtangibility.
that you're experiencing one another and you want to experience one another over and overagain.
So I always say it like this, Chad, we need to let God come out of the Bible, kind of likelet the genie out of the lamp and let him be real.
(18:40):
And that's where I've been, so it's super cool to know God's taking you into the sameplaces.
So what do you think has been the holdup as far as, you know, for average Joe BlowChristian, you know, what's been the holdup as far as people and those experiences?
(19:00):
So, I mean, you know me, I'm just gonna shoot right from the hip.
mean, we've taught people to have a relationship with a book instead of learning toactually get to know the author.
Brother Hagen wasn't Brother Hagen because of his biblical knowledge.
Brother Hagen was Brother Hagen because he knew God.
And he knew God from the scriptures, but he knew God experientially from his time with himin prayer and walking and living with him.
(19:29):
So when you listen to a story, you'll always hear, you can always hear.
And when I'm listening to somebody tell me a story, God has helped me to become very awareof where the button or the lever is of why that miracle happened.
And it's always connected to the Holy Spirit, somehow, in some way.
(19:51):
There is no miracle without Him.
And so people will say to me, and I know they've said this to you too, know, sisterso-and-so was the best Christian at our, she was the most beloved Christian at our church.
She was the most faithful woman we've ever known.
And, and as talking about a woman of faith, she had more faith than anybody in church.
How come she died?
(20:13):
And I would always say, I'm sure she was a beautiful woman, but no miracle ever happensoutside of a connection to the Holy Spirit.
And so in some way, shape or form, she was in the way or she wasn't connected.
And that always, yeah.
No, I'm done.
No, so from a practical standpoint for people, how does the average person make thatconnection or, I mean, guess this would be another question, how do we as ministers, how
(20:47):
do we help people make that connection?
Okay, there's two, you know how you can go back to anything and you can find the, I justlost the words.
There's the theological standpoint that you could make a point of, and then there's thevital standpoint, in other words, how you incorporate that into your life.
(21:09):
So the theological standpoint, the question you just asked me is, number one, we haven'ttaught people like we should.
of who we are in Christ.
And there's a deficiency in the body of Christ.
So they see themselves in themselves and not in Christ.
So they look at situations from a standpoint of trying to get a hold of something insteadof already occupying a space.
(21:35):
So for instance, we've got people trying to have a connection with God, but they alreadyhave a connection.
Jesus gave that connection and it came through the precious blood of Christ.
I say it this way because it makes sense.
You know, we have our cell phones and we're all too aware of a cell signal being very weakand not being able to make a phone call or dropping a call.
(22:01):
Where when Jesus rose from the grave, God made possible for the whole world by removingour sin to give five bars to every single human being.
Well, you know, people are going to go to hell because they never
had any bars toward God and made a connection by receiving that wonderful work of Christ.
(22:21):
So when you receive Him, you've got five bars from God on you.
But you know, it takes another person to have some bars in order to make the connection,in order to make the interaction, in order to have a conversation on your phone.
So God's got five bars on you and those five bars will never move because it's not basedon your performance, it's based on Christ.
(22:46):
But now the vital step is, how do I produce bars?
Well, one of the number one ways you get bars is by recognizing you have bars.
I mean, thank God I am a spirit.
I possess a soul and I live in a body and I'm connected from my spirit to God's spiritright there, right there.
There are bars, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, are going up versus being in the mountainsand you look at your phone and it just dropped the call and you got one little bar and you
(23:15):
know you can't surf the internet with that one bar.
You might get a text through, maybe a text, but that's it.
See, we develop bars as we begin to let God become real in our life.
And this is the pursuit of experiencing God in everything you do.
This is the reason why Brother Hagen would say,
I can be in bed at night and God be just as real as my wife next to me.
(23:39):
It's because during the day, and this is what our whole book is about, it's developing aconsciousness of God throughout the day and inviting him to be a part of every single
thing you do.
Last thing I'll say, Chad, I want your thoughts.
know, Proverbs 3, 5, and 6, you know, trust the Lord with all your heart.
And then it says acknowledge him in all your ways.
(23:59):
That means God wants to be involved in everything you do, but you've got to acknowledgehim.
Yeah.
Message Bible says, listen to God in everything you do and everywhere you go.
Do you mean he wants to talk to me that much?
And the answer is, of course.
That's the constant interaction and the word you use, Chad, which is, I'm learning toabide.
To abide means to be continually connected.
(24:22):
Continually connected to my wife.
When we're connected to our spouses, things usually go better.
When we're connected to Christ,
And like Mark Hanken said, you always look better in Christ than you do out of Christ.
Things begin to change.
Yeah, I've noticed over the years, I for me, it's always an identification thing, you thatyou made that statement, you can't move beyond yourself until you're in Him.
(24:51):
And I've looked over the years, you know, in our charismatic, Spirit-filled world, and wehave all these statements and these truths that we teach, and they are true, but they're
very surface.
You know, I'm a spirit, I have a soul, I live in a body.
Okay, for most of us, it makes a good t-shirt, but we haven't really plumbed the depths ofthat.
You know, we say that, yeah, and we say, you know, we quote 1 John 4.15, as he is, so am Iin this world.
(25:15):
Well, it sounds good, but we don't question, okay, what's the possibilities of that?
And so what I've seen is that we've basically taught these truths, but we've taught themfrom the standpoint of the sinner instead of the standpoint of the Christ.
So, you when it comes to this connection, this experience with God, like you said, if
(25:37):
If I'm from a place I'm trying to make that connection, then I'm no different than thewoman with the issue blood trying to get to Jesus.
But if I identify with Christ, now I'm not the one trying to get the healing.
I'm not trying to get to him.
I already have that connection.
yeah, and then like, you know, take it's like we've taught all these puzzle pieces, butwe've never brought all the puzzle pieces and put them together.
(26:02):
Because when you put them together, it's Jesus and
I've even used this just in my times of just prayer, meditation, the statement Paul makesof that, God raised us up, He made us to sit down at God's right hand in Christ.
(26:23):
I mean, a lot of times, it sounds crazy people, but a lot of times I've just closed myeyes and just let my imagination run wild from that place.
I'm sitting here, He's right there, let's have a conversation.
I'm experienced fellowship him like I'm not trying to get in touch with a God that's amillion miles away like that that veil so to speak is like right there like
(26:49):
Yeah, we were in a meeting with the Sosby's and Leanne got up and she told, she tells allkinds of stories.
I don't remember, but anyhow, she told a story.
She said, I came into your office.
The office was dark.
And I said, Jim, are you in here?
He goes, yeah, I'm in here.
She said, you were in the corner, the very back corner behind your desk on the floor,sitting there all curled up.
(27:12):
Not laying down, but just curled up with my knees up, you know, to my chest.
And she said, I walked around, I walked over there and I looked and said, what in theworld are you doing?
And she said, you said, I'm imagining myself pulling people out of wheelchairs and takingcancers right off of people's faces.
And she said, my dear God, you're doing what?
(27:32):
And I said, I'm imagining myself healing people and seeing miracles.
And she said, can I sit over here in one of the chairs?
And I said, yeah.
She said, well, if you're going to do it, I'm going to do it.
And she sat there.
She started imagining too.
know, Chad, if we don't let what's real become a part of our conscience, you'll, you'll inthe time where you meet your confrontation of a situation, you'll never step beyond
(27:59):
yourself.
The only way to step beyond yourself is to enter into.
the very person of Christ Himself, just like you said.
One comment I wanted to make is, you know, even in the world, people know, if you teach asubject, people learn maybe 25%, 26%, maybe 28%.
If you teach a subject and you show a subject, people will learn up into the high 60s,close to 70%.
(28:25):
But when you teach a subject, you show them how to do it, and then you get them to do it,now you're up over 80%.
You know, when we look at all these nice sayings that we have in the body of Christ, oneof the reasons why we don't have a consciousness of victory is because we've never seen
demonstrations of the things that have been taught.
(28:47):
I mean, there's conferences going on right now talking about faith.
Well, if they don't show what your faith can produce in the conference, it's just anothersaying.
In fact, there's probably amazing
cliches being spoken in these conferences right now.
But if you don't see a demonstration, people walk away with so little.
(29:10):
And think about it, Chad, I'm thinking of all these people that I had an opportunity todemonstrate the power of God to.
Like, you know, Jay Atkins, know, Jay and Amy.
know, Jay gets up and he'll say, he said, you know, I said to myself, I'm never gonna missa prayer school or a healing school.
as long as I'm at this campus because I walked in to prayer school one day and he said,I'm hearing all these great things at Raymond being preached to me.
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And I walked in and all of a sudden this guy gets up who I don't even know what he'ssaying.
He says, I want every person that has a tumor in this room, get down to this room rightnow.
You're going to see every one of them leave.
He said, I watched 15 tumors disappear in people's bodies just because someone said thatthat's what was going to take place.
He said, when I saw it, I said, I'm going to be here every day.
I'm not going to miss this.
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Now you think of all the people we had in those prayer school and healing schools, whichwere 300 a day in prayer school, there still is a smaller group of those that are doing
things like you're doing.
like David did them, David Fowler.
Here's another one.
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There were others that I watched and they're doing those things today.
Jamal King is another one preaching about the consciousness of God.
He got a hold of it, he got it.
So if you think about it, Chad, if we're demonstrating things and only a few get it, nowyou see why teaching alone is not sufficient.
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You've got to back it up with results.
Do you think it's a hunger issue?
Well, I'll say this.
I mean, that's a good question.
But when you see somebody manifesting God, that's what produces hunger.
I can't, I can't rely.
OK, let me make this statement.
(31:00):
If you stacked up the tangibility of the world against the tangibility of God, right now,where the body of Christ is, the tangibility of the world would win every time.
Every single time.
So where we are right now,
I can't hope and pray that someone's going to have the hunger that's necessary to takethem over.
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I'm going to have to instill that hunger in them.
I'm going to have to make them hungry.
And I make them hungry by what I reveal of who Jesus is.
And if I can reveal a greater consciousness of Christ in me than what they are presentedwith at that particular time, the possibility is they'll get hungry.
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Yeah, so then it still falls on the minister.
But how much of our culture, so to speak, has really put the responsibility on the people?
Well, that's just it.
mean, we've been through 40 plus years of a teaching revival that isn't so much a revivalanymore.
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It's become the norm.
Like we, boy, I guess I'm going to say things are going to make people mad, but anyhow,you teach people no matter what you do, you're teaching people.
If you teach these amazing, grander, and wonderful wonderments of Christ, but you don'tdemonstrate anything, then you've taught people to believe it doesn't work.
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And whenever you teach a negative, it will always go deeper inside someone's consciousnessor mentality or mannerisms than a positive will.
And the reason is because we're living in a negative world.
We're surrounded by negative things.
We look at negative things at night on TV.
We're around negative people constantly, and we're around a church world that it neverseems to work.
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And if any leader gets sick, they always die.
Now, take that right there, and then take 40 years of teaching about a subject, but veryrarely seeing the evidence of it.
And what we've done is we've literally become extremely proficient at teaching people tonot believe it works.
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In fact, Chad, listen, I'm going to make somebody else mad at this.
But you know, our song, Waymaker, do you know when everybody really sings?
Everybody really sings when the, you know, even when I don't see it, he's working.
Even when I don't feel it, he's working.
That's when everybody sings.
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Because that's the only thing they can identify is I'm a hopin' and a prayin' knowin' thathe's working, but I don't see it and I don't feel it.
And it's like,
Come on!
This is the evidence of teaching without demonstration.
And I don't know where in the body of Christ it was allowed to be understood that ateacher is able to give information without demonstration.
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Like, I got tagged as I was an evangelist.
I've never been an evangelist.
I've never been an evangelist.
But I was tagged.
as we started getting results, I got tagged.
I got thrown into to your same thing.
I got tagged as an evangelist and I got tagged with having a special anointing.
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Right, a special anointing and gift of power.
That's right.
Yeah, and so I work hard to refute that because that is counterproductive to everyonedoing the works of Jesus.
One that produces excuses for people that aren't seeing stuff.
And if you think about it, Jesus never mentioned to 12 guys that were normal dudes, okay,He never mentioned to these 12 buddies of His that you had to be a prophet to see.
(35:12):
You had to be an apostle to have a miracle.
You had to be an evangelist to work in healings.
And as a teacher, hey, listen, all you can do is pontificate.
And pastors, you love people.
He never did that, and he never mentioned the gifts of the Spirit.
That revelation didn't come until the apostle Paul had to make corrections.
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And he didn't make corrections about all of them.
He only made corrections about three of them, which were the vocal gifts.
And he never even identified and defined the other six gifts of the Spirit.
So on
The scale of Paul from 1 to 10, the message that he preached that had the most importantgifts of the Spirit and ministry callings, there might not even be on that list.
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Yeah, I would agree.
But we've, I've seen people take those things and use them for excuses as to why they'renot seeing results.
And I've done the same thing.
I've pushed that, I've pushed, I've just pushed those things away because I don't, I don'twant to be labeled.
I don't want to be boxed in by anything.
I know what I'm called to do.
And I know that with a particular, whatever God called it, you do that.
(36:32):
Yeah, there may be, yeah, there's certain equipment there and there may be certain.
Gifts, graces that you're gonna flow in, you know, a little bit more, something like that.
But I mean, like, why would I limit myself to one particular gift when I've got the giverof the gifts on the inside of me and he can manifest whatever needs to be manifest.
So why would I limit myself?
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And wouldn't your gifting Chad, if you walked in your gifting in the fullness, wouldn'tthat gifting then bring a revelation to believers to be able to duplicate and work in the
miraculous even as you?
Or does that gifting only highlight you can do, but no one else can do?
(37:17):
See our giftings.
are there to teach, admonish, to bring the body into the fullness of Christ until we alllook like Jesus.
Now, Brother Hagen, I learned about prophesying.
I learned about speaking out in a prophetic tongue.
I learned about tongues and interpretation by being around Brother Hagen.
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Does that make me a prophet?
Well, no.
But does that mean I can flow in prophetic things?
Of course I can.
And where do I flow in those things?
Well, in my own personal life.
Does that mean I'm going to take the stage and prophesy over Washington, D.C., the nextmovement of God?
No.
The prophet is most likely going to do that.
But I learned how to do that in my own life.
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every single thing we've done has come through tongues and interpretation or propheticutterance of ourselves.
Where did I learn that?
I learned that from Brother Hagen.
Not a gift.
How to operate.
because he taught me as a prophet how to do it.
Yeah, I've looked at it even from the standpoint of the whole, you know, I'm a spirit, Ihave a soul, living body.
(38:25):
Just from that standpoint of, okay, if I'm a spirit being, and this is just, I'm veryblack and white in my thinking, very analytical in my thinking.
If I'm a spirit being, and these are spiritual things, that should just be normal for me.
Like, why would I have to have something extra to be spiritual if I'm a spirit?
(38:45):
You know?
I think that, I think, yeah, actually I texted you that a couple of weeks ago.
I was just thinking about that even as far as the gifts of the Spirit.
This has been a thought of mine.
I wasn't telling people this is a doctrinal statement, just thoughts, but the thought ofis it possible that the gifts of the Spirit really is the, one sense, almost kind of mercy
(39:07):
of God to help me step into something I need to step into that I really should be walkingin already just because I'm a Spirit.
Really, really well put, Chad.
That's very well.
If you'll think like that, then you'll always be able to operate in the gifts of theSpirit when necessary.
If you're looking for the gifts of the Spirit to bail you out, you've missed the wholepoint of redemption.
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The gifts of the Spirit is something that operated outside of, of course, the vocal gifts,but those things operated back in the old covenant.
We've got a new covenant.
We've been placed in the seat of Christ.
mean, Adam didn't have God in him.
Adam was a perfect spiritual being.
So we're a brand new kind of spiritual being.
(39:54):
God redid everything.
And he did it so perfectly that he was able to come and live and dwell on the inside andactually manifest himself through us.
And that right there is the ministry of healing, letting the essence of God himself wholives and abide in you to use you and manifest himself through you.
(40:14):
But that means you have to consciously let yourself, and this is really a good statement,give yourself permission to be Christ in the earth.
because there's not too much about your mind that will want to think that you actually cando what Jesus did.
You'll always go default back to the flesh.
(40:38):
If you give people a wiggle room and a way out, they'll always go to the flesh.
If you hold them tight to the Spirit,
That's when you find out who's going to actually step forward or not.
So your comments are really, really good.
I remember reading something of John Lake that seemed to infer that if I needed a gift ofthe Spirit, God was bailing me out.
I wasn't walking in the place that I should have been.
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It didn't mean that he didn't thank God for the gifts, but you can see Lake ministered outof a revelation.
Same thing with Smith Wigglesworth.
He ministered out of a revelation.
And that revelation was God in him.
In fact, Chad, you remember Brother Hagen saying, if any man or any woman has ever doneanything for Jesus, they were always God inside-minded first.
(41:28):
You ever remember him saying that?
Yeah, well, you can't get to the places we're walking in if it's information.
It has to be God inside-minded.
It's revelation.
Yeah, that's what I mean for years I've I've just always kind of taken this attitude likeI don't want to be just a good teacher.
(41:51):
I want to be a great minister.
You know, I want to be a great minister of the anointing, the life of God.
I don't want it to be just somebody teachers.
I mean, if you think about it like and I've talked about this before that if you take thestandards that the world has for results and the standard that the church has for results.
Like if you looked at the church as a business in our society, it would have been shutdown, you know, centuries ago, because the world actually expects results.
(42:18):
And if a business doesn't produce, it gets shut down.
And the church is like the only organization that can keep doing the same thing over andover and over again, get no results and still think we're doing something.
Right, Yeah, very, very good.
mean, it's a harsh thought and some people get offended at that.
(42:38):
Please don't.
But unless you can face some of these things and put yourself in the position to be theone that needs to change, nothing's gonna change.
So if you're a minister out there and you're hearing what we're saying and you're notnecessarily liking it, well then let me just say this.
(43:00):
You probably will never see things change because there's not some let's make a deal bluedoor, green door, red door, yellow door that's going to all of a sudden open and the
windows of heaven are going to just literally flood us with these miracles that are justgoing to make us do things that you're not willing to do right here and right now.
(43:21):
No.
The miracles are gonna come out of your belly and God's beginning to change people and getpeople hungry until they're so filled it just begins to come out of you.
Telling you Jesus has done the work, he's finished the fight.
What we see as a combination of a last day's move which will eclipse every other move is amovement of people recognizing who they are and beginning to release what's on the inside
(43:46):
of them and the miracle signs and wonders will manifest like heaven.
Sure, you'll see glory fall, but God doesn't need to do a work of glory in this last daythat He hasn't already done in this last day.
We need to pick up the mantle and run with it.
I've always said this.
People are saying, well, we're going to have a move.
Well, when God moved into you, you became that move.
(44:08):
If you're not moving, that's the reason why you're not seeing a move.
Get out there and move.
And someone will say, well, yeah, well, you need to be a prophet to do that.
We'll see.
Now we've got a problem.
And that problem seems to be that we're trying to qualify ourselves based on what we thinkwe have or don't have.
And Chad, that's where it comes back to, if you go back into real hardcore in Christunderstanding, you realize that the Christ of Nazareth lives in you and what he can do, so
(44:40):
can you.
Yeah, that's good, man.
So why don't we do this?
We'll finish up right here.
Why don't you take, because I just like, I want to be, I believe in being practical.
I always got people asking, okay, I hear these truths, what's practical stuff, how to dothis?
Like for the person who just never had an experience with God, even the minister, know,ministers that are watching and say, okay, I kind of hunger for that, but I don't know how
(45:04):
to get there.
Like, what's just some practical things people can do to...
and make that connection that they really already have as far as their soul, their mind,like what's the practical stuff they can do?
here's one thought.
This is kind of interesting.
Statistically wise, the average American adult can focus for a period of six to eightseconds.
(45:27):
Now just want to let you know what that looks like.
I'm looking into the camera right now.
One, two, three, four, five, huh?
The goldfish has been recorded as being able to focus for nine seconds.
So we're being outdone by a goldfish.
(45:52):
We're living in a world of such distraction.
When you hear David say, still and know that I'm God, Psalm 46, how still and for whatlength of time do you think it will be necessary?
to be able to experience God.
When it says be still and know that I'm God, that doesn't mean be still and haveintellectual knowledge of it.
(46:13):
That means be still and experience God.
So in your stillness, see, you've got to have time where you can get quiet.
Put on some of this music that's called Soki music.
There's no words to it.
I mean, literally, sometimes it's almost like the person has only one chord going for ahalf an hour, okay?
actually just put out one last week.
(46:34):
It's something I use.
Yeah, just soft ambient.
where your mind is not distracted to the words and you can just go inward to begin to, youknow, I can do that right now.
This is so simple.
Listen, this is my body, my mind.
I'm still really good at this.
plus 2 equals 4.
(46:55):
4 plus 4 equals 8.
8 plus 8 equals 16.
16 plus 16 equals 32.
Come on.
And then we're going to 64.
And on and on and on.
128.
You can just keep on.
But that's my mind.
Is that all that I am?
Oh my goodness.
That's such a small part because the rest is me.
Find you.
(47:15):
If you can find you, you can find him.
I just want you to know.
It's so important for you to get quiet and feel God.
It's okay to feel Him.
Some say, well, you know, we're getting people.
No, listen, listen, listen.
God is real and you should be able to feel, sense, be aware of His presence.
Everything about what you know.
(47:37):
I could probably look into this camera and I could probably say accurately, most of thepeople I'm looking at right now know enough of the word of God to literally save the
planet.
But do you have the experiences to back it up?
The Holy Ghost was sent so that you could know Him, feel Him, and be connected to Him.
(47:59):
So getting quiet is one of the ways that you can do that.
Now I'm going to challenge you with one other thought because we could take a lot of timehere and we don't have that time.
Why have we learned faith all these years?
It's to use it.
And I'm going to ask you to use your faith on something.
Jesus said very adamantly.
(48:20):
In other words, was very absolute.
He said, My sheep know Me.
My sheep hear Me.
My sheep follow Me.
And I'm going to ask you to do something right here today.
I'm going to ask you to, by faith, choose to believe that you do hear Him, you do followHim, you do see Him, you do know Him.
(48:46):
I'm going to ask you to believe that you do before you hear His voice.
Believe that you do before you sense His presence.
Believe that you do before you experience the experience that you need.
I'm challenging you to believe Him, and I'm challenging you to get quiet so you can feelHim.
Because the moment He becomes real to you, now I'm going to say one last thing.
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Adam and Eve were complete sinners, and so were their sons, Cain and Abel.
and they could hear the voice of God in complete sentences and completely recognize Hispresence.
I want you to know right now, if the body of Christ could hear God in complete sentencesand recognize His presence, we wouldn't be on this planet right now.
(49:30):
The whole planet would be changed.
And yet, two sinners, four sinners, could experience that.
I'm not asking you to experience anything that's beyond your right to experience.
God can be real to you, and you can hear Him.
Use your faith for it.
and get quiet and let God be real.
Those are my two things that I would share.
That's awesome man.
(49:51):
Man, that's good.
Hey guys, if you're watching this and you really like what you've been here, we're to getinto more of this.
This is just kind of a launching pad, but we've got advanced Houston coming up at the endof January.
We're going to Houston, Texas and Jim's going to be one of our guest speakers there andChris Beth on the worship team.
They're all going to be there.
It's going be some good, good stuff.
If you're interested in coming, it's absolutely free, but we just ask people to registerjust so we can make sure that everybody is taken care of.
(50:17):
You can very simply go to ChadGonzales.com and click on the events and there's aregistration there.
Also want to encourage you to check out Jim's stuff.
You can go to his website.
We'll have all the information and the notes and stuff like that.
And go to Amazon and check out his books.
We'll have the links in there as well.
So, hey, thanks for taking some time, spending some time with us.
Hope this encouraged you in some things and just beginning to think about what's possiblein your union with Christ and just have a great night.
(50:43):
We love you.
God bless you.
Remember Christ, we always win.
We'll talk to you soon.
Bye bye.
cool.
Hey everybody, I'm so excited to be with you today.
We've got a great show and I've got my dear friend Jim Hockaday.
Now if you've been following me for a while, you've heard me mention his name.
I've told people for many years that if it wasn't for Jim, I probably wouldn't be where Iam today.
A little over 20 years ago, I was looking for somebody that was getting some results andteaching some of the things I was starting to kind of see in scripture.
(00:27):
And he was the one person I found.
just really inspired me to begin going after it.
So I just always become a sounding board for me and just really, really excited to havehim here with us.
So, Jim, why don't you tell everybody kind of a little bit about yourself, what you'vebeen doing, and then we'll get into some, some good stuff here.
Yeah, sure, that sounds great.
(00:47):
Well, first, let me just comment on your comment.
Thank you for that compliment.
But Chad, you would have figured it out.
You didn't need me.
You would have figured it out.
It's just, know, Brother Hagen, when I was put in charge over Prayer and Healing School,this was back in 1994, and I was there for 10 years till 2004.
(01:10):
Before that, just giving a little history.
I was saved when I was young, brought up in a denominational church that did not believein healing.
Now, I mean, if it happened, we certainly wouldn't call it the devil, we'd call it God,but we didn't know how to exercise any faith for healing.
And it was just something that we never saw and we prayed for people, but never saw themhealed.
(01:34):
So there was no sense of...
any type of testimony that we could rely on to believe God for the future.
So that's my background.
came to Ramah, started, it was in music, singing in different groups and traveling andended up at Ramah.
Of course, I was thrilled with what I learned at Ramah and the truth that I heard.
(01:59):
I I learned more in my first week with the little...
video that they played for one week of Fred Price and Faith, Foolishness and Presumption.
I learned more in that week right there than I had my entire life.
And so what a great opportunity.
And then one step after another, before I was graduated in 1988 from Rayma, I was hired onto sing with the Rayma Singers in Band.
(02:24):
That was the crusade team for Brother Hagen.
And I was there for seven years.
Last few years, I managed the group, my wife Erin.
We were married in 91.
She came on and sang with us.
about two and a half years and traveled as well.
So wonderful, wonderful times being around Brother Hagen, being close to him.
But then I was asked to come off the road and do the prayer and healing school.
(02:46):
And I remember asking Brother Hagen, said, so you know, you're gonna help me with this,right?
And he looked at me and he laughed and he said, no, I'm not gonna help you.
And I said, what's the deal?
I said, it's your thing, it's not mine.
He goes, well, it's your thing now.
He said, I had to get it by myself.
He said, you get it by yourself.
And you know, truly, when you're hungry for something, it's nice to be able to have asounding board.
(03:10):
I think that's great.
In fact, Chad, you can become to me a sounding board now as well.
mean, once you, you know, someone was maybe younger than you and they grabbed a hold ofsome things you had that helped them get started.
But then once they take off and make it theirs.
then now we're equal.
I can learn as much from you as you can learn from me.
And so it's a wonderful, wonderful thing that God does to mature us and grow us into thethings that we're called to do.
(03:37):
And if you're hungry for the call, you'll figure it out.
And that's what happened in prayer and healing school.
We began to figure it out.
But know, Chad, it came with, I don't want to say a price because that gets taken wrong.
Like I lost half my life.
I didn't, I had a great life, but it did come with a price.
(03:58):
The price was I had to lay down my pride and open up my heart for God to change what waswrong in my perspective that didn't work until we got it to work.
And that becomes a little bit of my background.
And it still is today, one of my mantras, which is, if you're not willing to be wrong,you'll never be right.
(04:20):
If you can't lose something, you'll never have it.
And if you're not willing to die, you won't really experience life.
And so, step by step, we began to see some things that worked.
And God began to teach us and train us.
And then I've watched individuals like yourself and others who have...
picked up, well, just whatever I could give.
(04:42):
I don't have it all, but they picked up some of the things that I was able to share andthen ran with it and made it their own.
And now you guys are doing everything that I could do and better.
So I'm excited to be connected with you, Chad.
Man, I'm just honored to know you.
I really have told people like, because I got to remember when I was at Bible school, Iwas just hungry because I grew up in church, grew up in a good, you know, spirit filled
(05:10):
charismatic word of faith church, never really saw anything.
And then when I went to Bible school, still never really saw anything.
And but in my studies, I was just kind of reading some things.
And I remember my, it was my former youth pastor right before I went to Ramah, my formeryouth pastor.
had came up and gave me a book and it was that it was the book that the Copeland's putout, the life sermons and boldness, know, John G.
(05:34):
Lake.
I didn't know who John G.
Lake was, never heard about it.
I've got, I've got a copy right here, like a, I love that book.
And I remember reading that and I'm like, man, I've never heard some of these things.
I've never heard a lot of these things.
And, but then, you know, you don't want to get off doctrinally.
And so I'm kind of playing it safe, but then
(05:56):
I keep seeing this stuff, you know, my study time.
And so I wanted to get involved in, in prayer and healing school when I was there, but Icouldn't because of, of playing basketball and then I had to work, you know, graveyard
shifts and stuff.
And so it was after I graduated.
Yeah, it was after I graduated, Dave Fowler, he actually, he was, he stayed that last yearyou were there and he was a healing tech that last year.
(06:24):
And so every few days, you know, we would text back and forth and he'd tell me aboutthings that he was learning and stuff like that.
And, and I just got so excited because I was like, my gosh, finally there's, there'sactually somebody who believes these things and teaching these things.
knew you were getting good results.
And that's all I needed.
I just needed one person that I respected.
I saw that there was fruit that was teaching.
(06:45):
I just needed one person to show me that it was possible.
And that's all I needed.
And so we just ran after it, but it's just been cool over the years.
especially I'd say probably the last five, six years, like I've intentionally, it soundsbad, but the intention is good.
I've intentionally not listened to anything you've talked about, you know, not listen toyour, anything you've done on YouTube or anything, just to come back after a year or two
(07:13):
and kind of see where the Lord's been kind of leading you.
And it's been a really, really interesting to see that it's basically the same path forthe most part of where it's been leading me to.
And it's just really cool to see that.
Maybe you could share that for a moment.
How do you describe, now here I am interviewing you, how do you describe or summarize thepath that he's leading you on?
(07:38):
Because that'll give me a chance maybe to share what the Lord's been doing with us too.
Well, I would say for me, so we started our first church in 2006.
And when we started our church, I three years removed from Bible school.
And I just wanted to see miracles.
Like, I was so hungry for it.
I wanted to experience God.
I wanted to experience the supernatural.
(08:00):
And so when we wanted to start our church, was literally, it was the intent of we'reseeing miracles or we're going home.
I didn't want to be just another church on the corner.
And so it was very, in one sense, selfish.
I just wanted it from me.
And so that was where things started out.
I wanted to experience these things.
But then we just started seeing such phenomenal results over the years that my attitudestarted changing somewhat where I didn't want it just for me, I wanted it for the people
(08:30):
because I was seeing the results that we were getting and I wanted to be able to helppeople.
And all of this was being taught from our union identity with Christ.
And that's why we were seeing such great results, because we were getting people's eyesoff of them and their faith and their confession and this and that and getting it back
onto Jesus and the great big Christ in them.
(08:51):
But then over time, things are shifting for me even more so where it wasn't just about mewanting to see miracles and it wasn't just about getting the miracles and the healing for
people.
It ultimately got to the place of, just want to know Him.
And so,
the last couple of years, I've really been going down this path of just the seeing andhearing from him, experiencing him, knowing him that kind of like what Brother Hagen, I'll
(09:21):
never forget this statement that Brother Hagen made is my very last class with him.
And I know he'd said this to lots of people, but I mean, this was the thing that stood outto me, my very last class.
And he made this statement or two statements.
The first one was this.
I remember where I was sitting and he said, he said, I'm 86 years old.
and where I'm finishing, you can start.
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That one grabbed my attention.
And so I grabbed a hold of that.
My first thought was, he's crazy.
Like, I'm a, you know, I know where I've come from, but you're saying I can start whereyou're finishing.
But he was, meant it.
And so I believe that, grab a hold of it.
But number two, the thing that really got me was this.
He said, at this point in my life, God is just as real to me as my wife who sleeps in bednext to me.
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And I remember him making that statement.
And my first thought was,
You're nuts.
Now I was 26 years old, don't know anything.
My first thought was, you're crazy.
Like that's not even possible.
Yet there was the part of me that was so hungering and yearning that was like, okay, butif that is possible, I want that.
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And so that's the path I've been on these last few years.
And that's where I've really seen, you know, if I can just, from the place of myawareness,
my consciousness of him, the abiding in him.
If I can just stay in that place, all the other stuff, know, byproducts are just easy andnatural and normal.
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So I remember every day walking from, you you remember, you know, at the campus, there wasa prayer and healing center.
Actually, it doesn't exist anymore.
It just says prayer, prayer.
Preschool or Prescenter.
it says.
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They took the healing off.
But anyhow, it was its own separate building.
That's where my office was.
And I'd have to walk from there over to SDC.
That's a building, SDC 1, room 1278.
remember that?
And then next to it was room 3456 or something like that.
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But anyhow, I'd have to walk over every day to prayer school and the healing schoolbecause the prayer and healing building, we had a morning healing school there.
That's where I would work with the healing techs and all that kind of thing.
And that's where we had prayer rooms where we would pray.
We had back then, you know, there were 600 people that we were monitoring in prayergroups.
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I mean, that was a lot, you know.
And of course, Leanne Sosby, now it was Leanne Merrill back then, but Leanne wasinstrumental in helping me.
So anyhow, every day when I walked over, this is my prayer, I mean, every day, and becauseit was heartfelt, I said, Lord, I'm not doing this for me, I'm not doing this for the
people, I'm doing it for one reason.
I said, I want people, I want miracles to happen so people can see who you really are,because right now they're not seeing truly who you are.
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I said, we can preach it, but we're not experiencing it.
We can see it in the Bible, but we're not experiencing it.
I said, people need to experience you as you are.
said, so number one, said, whatever I have to do for you to be free to do what you dobest.
I said, that's where I'm at right now.
And I prayed that every single day.
And that's some of the reasons why we did.
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some of the crazy things we did.
mean, Chad, you know, we dragged people around the room, you know what mean?
We slapped people upside the head.
We didn't mean to do it, but I mean, it happened.
I mean, everywhere I go today, it's a crazy people come up and say, do you know what youdid to me back in 1997?
It's like, you know, there's no telling what, please, what was it?
know, well, you, and then they go ahead and tell me the stories.
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So, but we were just hungry.
to move beyond ourselves and you can't move beyond yourself until you're in him.
Because once you're beyond yourself, there's nothing.
But the moment you're in him, that's when things change.
And we began to see things take place.
Well,
A significant change happened in my life in 2011.
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I've already been out of prayer and healing school.
I left there in 2004.
So, 2011, I got really hungry again.
And I'm hungrier now more than ever.
I got really hungry again in the arena of, this ought to work in my own personal life justas well as I see it work in ministry to other people.
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And I'm not seeing that like I ought to.
And I prayed a really good prayer.
And again, because I remember my prayer where everything changed, Chad, in because you ifyou remember my testimony, the first three months from September 1994 to January of 1995,
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those first three months there.
And I'm not actually including December, you know, because that's when I actually prayed.
But those first three months, we didn't see anything happen.
I mean, if we had four healings, that was the most.
I'm talking about instantaneous things, you know.
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And you say, well, you the Bible says you recover.
Yes, you do recover.
But if you recover 40 years later, that's not a recovery.
OK?
So the longest recovery that Jesus had in his life was getting out of the grave in threedays.
So if you're past three days in your recovery, then you ought to actually go back andcheck up on what you're doing and what you're believing because maybe you're in the way,
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because it doesn't have to take that long.
Now I appreciate when people say, over the course of the year I got better and better.
Well, praise the Lord, they were receiving more more revelation.
But that's what we were experiencing, almost nothing.
And so I got on my face and asked God to change me and to...
Actually rearrange who I was I said Lord you've got to change me.
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I'm the reason why people aren't getting healed I said it's not the people and it's notyou.
It's me And that's when he began to change me and Chad you mentioned John G.
Lake's book Well, that's when I began to go back to that book and read it and to be honestThat's when it began to make sense to me
Because as a Rayma student, we were given that little book, remember?
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The God Men and Other Sermons by John G.
Lake.
It was a little tiny book, almost pamphlet-like, but it was maybe about that thick.
It had probably about seven, maybe eight sermons of his in there, and they were all reallygood.
The God Men sermon, of course, was off the chart.
Well, I didn't understand that when I read it when I was going to Rayma.
But when I hungered for more, that's when I started to understand it.
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And I began to see that we had to be the initiator of the healing as the minister, notjust trying to train the people to get enough faith to be healed.
mean, really and truly, you don't see Jesus sitting down and then teaching people for fourhours to be healed and then having a ministry line.
You know, he just healed.
where I started seeing the results was when I took the responsibility.
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That's right.
Yeah.
When you take the responsibility, that's when the anointing will flow.
When you're putting the responsibility on the people, very seldom do you see the anointingflow like it ought to flow.
So things began to change.
In 2011, I prayed another really good prayer, and I'll condense this real quickly here.
And God sent me somebody.
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It was a very unusual individual, a cowboy, you know, that wasn't even saved.
that got saved, but didn't know that he was actually a genius.
So he was not just listening to me preach, he was figuring out what I was doing.
And he began to see that we should be experiencing God so much more.
And his experiences went beyond me within a day, where he just went to heaven and then hewould go over and over and over again and spend time with God in that kind of tangibility.
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And it made me really hungry to realize, my goodness,
We can know God so much more than we do.
And all of a sudden, Brother Hagen's saying, when I lay in bed at night next to my wife,Aretha, the Holy Ghost is more real to me than she is.
Now, that doesn't mean that he can't touch her and her be real.
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What he's saying is the moment he brings his focus into spiritual things, spiritual thingsbecome just as real and more so than his wife.
which means we can have that kind of tangibility.
And that's what I've been running after the last 10 years and more so.
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In fact, I'll just bring this out.
We have a new book called What's Next Papa?
And it's all about experiencing God and the whole idea to say, what's next papa now that Ihave grandchildren.
We've got five grandchildren, which is crazy.
You know, they don't just do something with you once.
They wear you out.
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It's like, okay, you know, grandpa, what are we going to do next?
What are we going to do next?
And the beauty about it is that you're interacting with each other in such reality andtangibility.
that you're experiencing one another and you want to experience one another over and overagain.
So I always say it like this, Chad, we need to let God come out of the Bible, kind of likelet the genie out of the lamp and let him be real.
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And that's where I've been, so it's super cool to know God's taking you into the sameplaces.
So what do you think has been the holdup as far as, you know, for average Joe BlowChristian, you know, what's been the holdup as far as people and those experiences?
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So, I mean, you know me, I'm just gonna shoot right from the hip.
mean, we've taught people to have a relationship with a book instead of learning toactually get to know the author.
Brother Hagen wasn't Brother Hagen because of his biblical knowledge.
Brother Hagen was Brother Hagen because he knew God.
And he knew God from the scriptures, but he knew God experientially from his time with himin prayer and walking and living with him.
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So when you listen to a story, you'll always hear, you can always hear.
And when I'm listening to somebody tell me a story, God has helped me to become very awareof where the button or the lever is of why that miracle happened.
And it's always connected to the Holy Spirit, somehow, in some way.
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There is no miracle without Him.
And so people will say to me, and I know they've said this to you too, know, sisterso-and-so was the best Christian at our, she was the most beloved Christian at our church.
She was the most faithful woman we've ever known.
And, and as talking about a woman of faith, she had more faith than anybody in church.
How come she died?
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And I would always say, I'm sure she was a beautiful woman, but no miracle ever happensoutside of a connection to the Holy Spirit.
And so in some way, shape or form, she was in the way or she wasn't connected.
And that always, yeah.
No, I'm done.
No, so from a practical standpoint for people, how does the average person make thatconnection or, I mean, guess this would be another question, how do we as ministers, how
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do we help people make that connection?
Okay, there's two, you know how you can go back to anything and you can find the, I justlost the words.
There's the theological standpoint that you could make a point of, and then there's thevital standpoint, in other words, how you incorporate that into your life.
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So the theological standpoint, the question you just asked me is, number one, we haven'ttaught people like we should.
of who we are in Christ.
And there's a deficiency in the body of Christ.
So they see themselves in themselves and not in Christ.
So they look at situations from a standpoint of trying to get a hold of something insteadof already occupying a space.
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So for instance, we've got people trying to have a connection with God, but they alreadyhave a connection.
Jesus gave that connection and it came through the precious blood of Christ.
I say it this way because it makes sense.
You know, we have our cell phones and we're all too aware of a cell signal being very weakand not being able to make a phone call or dropping a call.
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Where when Jesus rose from the grave, God made possible for the whole world by removingour sin to give five bars to every single human being.
Well, you know, people are going to go to hell because they never
had any bars toward God and made a connection by receiving that wonderful work of Christ.
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So when you receive Him, you've got five bars from God on you.
But you know, it takes another person to have some bars in order to make the connection,in order to make the interaction, in order to have a conversation on your phone.
So God's got five bars on you and those five bars will never move because it's not basedon your performance, it's based on Christ.
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But now the vital step is, how do I produce bars?
Well, one of the number one ways you get bars is by recognizing you have bars.
I mean, thank God I am a spirit.
I possess a soul and I live in a body and I'm connected from my spirit to God's spiritright there, right there.
There are bars, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, are going up versus being in the mountainsand you look at your phone and it just dropped the call and you got one little bar and you
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know you can't surf the internet with that one bar.
You might get a text through, maybe a text, but that's it.
See, we develop bars as we begin to let God become real in our life.
And this is the pursuit of experiencing God in everything you do.
This is the reason why Brother Hagen would say,
I can be in bed at night and God be just as real as my wife next to me.
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It's because during the day, and this is what our whole book is about, it's developing aconsciousness of God throughout the day and inviting him to be a part of every single
thing you do.
Last thing I'll say, Chad, I want your thoughts.
know, Proverbs 3, 5, and 6, you know, trust the Lord with all your heart.
And then it says acknowledge him in all your ways.
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That means God wants to be involved in everything you do, but you've got to acknowledgehim.
Yeah.
Message Bible says, listen to God in everything you do and everywhere you go.
Do you mean he wants to talk to me that much?
And the answer is, of course.
That's the constant interaction and the word you use, Chad, which is, I'm learning toabide.
To abide means to be continually connected.
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Continually connected to my wife.
When we're connected to our spouses, things usually go better.
When we're connected to Christ,
And like Mark Hanken said, you always look better in Christ than you do out of Christ.
Things begin to change.
Yeah, I've noticed over the years, I for me, it's always an identification thing, you thatyou made that statement, you can't move beyond yourself until you're in Him.
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And I've looked over the years, you know, in our charismatic, Spirit-filled world, and wehave all these statements and these truths that we teach, and they are true, but they're
very surface.
You know, I'm a spirit, I have a soul, I live in a body.
Okay, for most of us, it makes a good t-shirt, but we haven't really plumbed the depths ofthat.
You know, we say that, yeah, and we say, you know, we quote 1 John 4.15, as he is, so am Iin this world.
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Well, it sounds good, but we don't question, okay, what's the possibilities of that?
And so what I've seen is that we've basically taught these truths, but we've taught themfrom the standpoint of the sinner instead of the standpoint of the Christ.
So, you when it comes to this connection, this experience with God, like you said, if
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If I'm from a place I'm trying to make that connection, then I'm no different than thewoman with the issue blood trying to get to Jesus.
But if I identify with Christ, now I'm not the one trying to get the healing.
I'm not trying to get to him.
I already have that connection.
yeah, and then like, you know, take it's like we've taught all these puzzle pieces, butwe've never brought all the puzzle pieces and put them together.
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Because when you put them together, it's Jesus and
I've even used this just in my times of just prayer, meditation, the statement Paul makesof that, God raised us up, He made us to sit down at God's right hand in Christ.
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I mean, a lot of times, it sounds crazy people, but a lot of times I've just closed myeyes and just let my imagination run wild from that place.
I'm sitting here, He's right there, let's have a conversation.
I'm experienced fellowship him like I'm not trying to get in touch with a God that's amillion miles away like that that veil so to speak is like right there like
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Yeah, we were in a meeting with the Sosby's and Leanne got up and she told, she tells allkinds of stories.
I don't remember, but anyhow, she told a story.
She said, I came into your office.
The office was dark.
And I said, Jim, are you in here?
He goes, yeah, I'm in here.
She said, you were in the corner, the very back corner behind your desk on the floor,sitting there all curled up.
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Not laying down, but just curled up with my knees up, you know, to my chest.
And she said, I walked around, I walked over there and I looked and said, what in theworld are you doing?
And she said, you said, I'm imagining myself pulling people out of wheelchairs and takingcancers right off of people's faces.
And she said, my dear God, you're doing what?
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And I said, I'm imagining myself healing people and seeing miracles.
And she said, can I sit over here in one of the chairs?
And I said, yeah.
She said, well, if you're going to do it, I'm going to do it.
And she sat there.
She started imagining too.
know, Chad, if we don't let what's real become a part of our conscience, you'll, you'll inthe time where you meet your confrontation of a situation, you'll never step beyond
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yourself.
The only way to step beyond yourself is to enter into.
the very person of Christ Himself, just like you said.
One comment I wanted to make is, you know, even in the world, people know, if you teach asubject, people learn maybe 25%, 26%, maybe 28%.
If you teach a subject and you show a subject, people will learn up into the high 60s,close to 70%.
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But when you teach a subject, you show them how to do it, and then you get them to do it,now you're up over 80%.
You know, when we look at all these nice sayings that we have in the body of Christ, oneof the reasons why we don't have a consciousness of victory is because we've never seen
demonstrations of the things that have been taught.
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I mean, there's conferences going on right now talking about faith.
Well, if they don't show what your faith can produce in the conference, it's just anothersaying.
In fact, there's probably amazing
cliches being spoken in these conferences right now.
But if you don't see a demonstration, people walk away with so little.
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And think about it, Chad, I'm thinking of all these people that I had an opportunity todemonstrate the power of God to.
Like, you know, Jay Atkins, know, Jay and Amy.
know, Jay gets up and he'll say, he said, you know, I said to myself, I'm never gonna missa prayer school or a healing school.
as long as I'm at this campus because I walked in to prayer school one day and he said,I'm hearing all these great things at Raymond being preached to me.
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And I walked in and all of a sudden this guy gets up who I don't even know what he'ssaying.
He says, I want every person that has a tumor in this room, get down to this room rightnow.
You're going to see every one of them leave.
He said, I watched 15 tumors disappear in people's bodies just because someone said thatthat's what was going to take place.
He said, when I saw it, I said, I'm going to be here every day.
I'm not going to miss this.
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Now you think of all the people we had in those prayer school and healing schools, whichwere 300 a day in prayer school, there still is a smaller group of those that are doing
things like you're doing.
like David did them, David Fowler.
Here's another one.
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There were others that I watched and they're doing those things today.
Jamal King is another one preaching about the consciousness of God.
He got a hold of it, he got it.
So if you think about it, Chad, if we're demonstrating things and only a few get it, nowyou see why teaching alone is not sufficient.
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You've got to back it up with results.
Do you think it's a hunger issue?
Well, I'll say this.
I mean, that's a good question.
But when you see somebody manifesting God, that's what produces hunger.
I can't, I can't rely.
OK, let me make this statement.
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If you stacked up the tangibility of the world against the tangibility of God, right now,where the body of Christ is, the tangibility of the world would win every time.
Every single time.
So where we are right now,
I can't hope and pray that someone's going to have the hunger that's necessary to takethem over.
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I'm going to have to instill that hunger in them.
I'm going to have to make them hungry.
And I make them hungry by what I reveal of who Jesus is.
And if I can reveal a greater consciousness of Christ in me than what they are presentedwith at that particular time, the possibility is they'll get hungry.
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Yeah, so then it still falls on the minister.
But how much of our culture, so to speak, has really put the responsibility on the people?
Well, that's just it.
mean, we've been through 40 plus years of a teaching revival that isn't so much a revivalanymore.
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It's become the norm.
Like we, boy, I guess I'm going to say things are going to make people mad, but anyhow,you teach people no matter what you do, you're teaching people.
If you teach these amazing, grander, and wonderful wonderments of Christ, but you don'tdemonstrate anything, then you've taught people to believe it doesn't work.
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And whenever you teach a negative, it will always go deeper inside someone's consciousnessor mentality or mannerisms than a positive will.
And the reason is because we're living in a negative world.
We're surrounded by negative things.
We look at negative things at night on TV.
We're around negative people constantly, and we're around a church world that it neverseems to work.
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And if any leader gets sick, they always die.
Now, take that right there, and then take 40 years of teaching about a subject, but veryrarely seeing the evidence of it.
And what we've done is we've literally become extremely proficient at teaching people tonot believe it works.
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In fact, Chad, listen, I'm going to make somebody else mad at this.
But you know, our song, Waymaker, do you know when everybody really sings?
Everybody really sings when the, you know, even when I don't see it, he's working.
Even when I don't feel it, he's working.
That's when everybody sings.
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Because that's the only thing they can identify is I'm a hopin' and a prayin' knowin' thathe's working, but I don't see it and I don't feel it.
And it's like,
Come on!
This is the evidence of teaching without demonstration.
And I don't know where in the body of Christ it was allowed to be understood that ateacher is able to give information without demonstration.
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Like, I got tagged as I was an evangelist.
I've never been an evangelist.
I've never been an evangelist.
But I was tagged.
as we started getting results, I got tagged.
I got thrown into to your same thing.
I got tagged as an evangelist and I got tagged with having a special anointing.
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Right, a special anointing and gift of power.
That's right.
Yeah, and so I work hard to refute that because that is counterproductive to everyonedoing the works of Jesus.
One that produces excuses for people that aren't seeing stuff.
And if you think about it, Jesus never mentioned to 12 guys that were normal dudes, okay,He never mentioned to these 12 buddies of His that you had to be a prophet to see.
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You had to be an apostle to have a miracle.
You had to be an evangelist to work in healings.
And as a teacher, hey, listen, all you can do is pontificate.
And pastors, you love people.
He never did that, and he never mentioned the gifts of the Spirit.
That revelation didn't come until the apostle Paul had to make corrections.
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And he didn't make corrections about all of them.
He only made corrections about three of them, which were the vocal gifts.
And he never even identified and defined the other six gifts of the Spirit.
So on
The scale of Paul from 1 to 10, the message that he preached that had the most importantgifts of the Spirit and ministry callings, there might not even be on that list.
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Yeah, I would agree.
But we've, I've seen people take those things and use them for excuses as to why they'renot seeing results.
And I've done the same thing.
I've pushed that, I've pushed, I've just pushed those things away because I don't, I don'twant to be labeled.
I don't want to be boxed in by anything.
I know what I'm called to do.
And I know that with a particular, whatever God called it, you do that.
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Yeah, there may be, yeah, there's certain equipment there and there may be certain.
Gifts, graces that you're gonna flow in, you know, a little bit more, something like that.
But I mean, like, why would I limit myself to one particular gift when I've got the giverof the gifts on the inside of me and he can manifest whatever needs to be manifest.
So why would I limit myself?
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And wouldn't your gifting Chad, if you walked in your gifting in the fullness, wouldn'tthat gifting then bring a revelation to believers to be able to duplicate and work in the
miraculous even as you?
Or does that gifting only highlight you can do, but no one else can do?
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See our giftings.
are there to teach, admonish, to bring the body into the fullness of Christ until we alllook like Jesus.
Now, Brother Hagen, I learned about prophesying.
I learned about speaking out in a prophetic tongue.
I learned about tongues and interpretation by being around Brother Hagen.
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Does that make me a prophet?
Well, no.
But does that mean I can flow in prophetic things?
Of course I can.
And where do I flow in those things?
Well, in my own personal life.
Does that mean I'm going to take the stage and prophesy over Washington, D.C., the nextmovement of God?
No.
The prophet is most likely going to do that.
But I learned how to do that in my own life.
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every single thing we've done has come through tongues and interpretation or propheticutterance of ourselves.
Where did I learn that?
I learned that from Brother Hagen.
Not a gift.
How to operate.
because he taught me as a prophet how to do it.
Yeah, I've looked at it even from the standpoint of the whole, you know, I'm a spirit, Ihave a soul, living body.
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Just from that standpoint of, okay, if I'm a spirit being, and this is just, I'm veryblack and white in my thinking, very analytical in my thinking.
If I'm a spirit being, and these are spiritual things, that should just be normal for me.
Like, why would I have to have something extra to be spiritual if I'm a spirit?
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You know?
I think that, I think, yeah, actually I texted you that a couple of weeks ago.
I was just thinking about that even as far as the gifts of the Spirit.
This has been a thought of mine.
I wasn't telling people this is a doctrinal statement, just thoughts, but the thought ofis it possible that the gifts of the Spirit really is the, one sense, almost kind of mercy
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of God to help me step into something I need to step into that I really should be walkingin already just because I'm a Spirit.
Really, really well put, Chad.
That's very well.
If you'll think like that, then you'll always be able to operate in the gifts of theSpirit when necessary.
If you're looking for the gifts of the Spirit to bail you out, you've missed the wholepoint of redemption.
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The gifts of the Spirit is something that operated outside of, of course, the vocal gifts,but those things operated back in the old covenant.
We've got a new covenant.
We've been placed in the seat of Christ.
mean, Adam didn't have God in him.
Adam was a perfect spiritual being.
So we're a brand new kind of spiritual being.
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God redid everything.
And he did it so perfectly that he was able to come and live and dwell on the inside andactually manifest himself through us.
And that right there is the ministry of healing, letting the essence of God himself wholives and abide in you to use you and manifest himself through you.
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But that means you have to consciously let yourself, and this is really a good statement,give yourself permission to be Christ in the earth.
because there's not too much about your mind that will want to think that you actually cando what Jesus did.
You'll always go default back to the flesh.
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If you give people a wiggle room and a way out, they'll always go to the flesh.
If you hold them tight to the Spirit,
That's when you find out who's going to actually step forward or not.
So your comments are really, really good.
I remember reading something of John Lake that seemed to infer that if I needed a gift ofthe Spirit, God was bailing me out.
I wasn't walking in the place that I should have been.
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It didn't mean that he didn't thank God for the gifts, but you can see Lake ministered outof a revelation.
Same thing with Smith Wigglesworth.
He ministered out of a revelation.
And that revelation was God in him.
In fact, Chad, you remember Brother Hagen saying, if any man or any woman has ever doneanything for Jesus, they were always God inside-minded first.
(41:28):
You ever remember him saying that?
Yeah, well, you can't get to the places we're walking in if it's information.
It has to be God inside-minded.
It's revelation.
Yeah, that's what I mean for years I've I've just always kind of taken this attitude likeI don't want to be just a good teacher.
(41:51):
I want to be a great minister.
You know, I want to be a great minister of the anointing, the life of God.
I don't want it to be just somebody teachers.
I mean, if you think about it like and I've talked about this before that if you take thestandards that the world has for results and the standard that the church has for results.
Like if you looked at the church as a business in our society, it would have been shutdown, you know, centuries ago, because the world actually expects results.
(42:18):
And if a business doesn't produce, it gets shut down.
And the church is like the only organization that can keep doing the same thing over andover and over again, get no results and still think we're doing something.
Right, Yeah, very, very good.
mean, it's a harsh thought and some people get offended at that.
(42:38):
Please don't.
But unless you can face some of these things and put yourself in the position to be theone that needs to change, nothing's gonna change.
So if you're a minister out there and you're hearing what we're saying and you're notnecessarily liking it, well then let me just say this.
(43:00):
You probably will never see things change because there's not some let's make a deal bluedoor, green door, red door, yellow door that's going to all of a sudden open and the
windows of heaven are going to just literally flood us with these miracles that are justgoing to make us do things that you're not willing to do right here and right now.
(43:21):
No.
The miracles are gonna come out of your belly and God's beginning to change people and getpeople hungry until they're so filled it just begins to come out of you.
Telling you Jesus has done the work, he's finished the fight.
What we see as a combination of a last day's move which will eclipse every other move is amovement of people recognizing who they are and beginning to release what's on the inside
(43:46):
of them and the miracle signs and wonders will manifest like heaven.
Sure, you'll see glory fall, but God doesn't need to do a work of glory in this last daythat He hasn't already done in this last day.
We need to pick up the mantle and run with it.
I've always said this.
People are saying, well, we're going to have a move.
Well, when God moved into you, you became that move.
(44:08):
If you're not moving, that's the reason why you're not seeing a move.
Get out there and move.
And someone will say, well, yeah, well, you need to be a prophet to do that.
We'll see.
Now we've got a problem.
And that problem seems to be that we're trying to qualify ourselves based on what we thinkwe have or don't have.
And Chad, that's where it comes back to, if you go back into real hardcore in Christunderstanding, you realize that the Christ of Nazareth lives in you and what he can do, so
(44:40):
can you.
Yeah, that's good, man.
So why don't we do this?
We'll finish up right here.
Why don't you take, because I just like, I want to be, I believe in being practical.
I always got people asking, okay, I hear these truths, what's practical stuff, how to dothis?
Like for the person who just never had an experience with God, even the minister, know,ministers that are watching and say, okay, I kind of hunger for that, but I don't know how
(45:04):
to get there.
Like, what's just some practical things people can do to...
and make that connection that they really already have as far as their soul, their mind,like what's the practical stuff they can do?
here's one thought.
This is kind of interesting.
Statistically wise, the average American adult can focus for a period of six to eightseconds.
(45:27):
Now just want to let you know what that looks like.
I'm looking into the camera right now.
One, two, three, four, five, huh?
The goldfish has been recorded as being able to focus for nine seconds.
So we're being outdone by a goldfish.
(45:52):
We're living in a world of such distraction.
When you hear David say, still and know that I'm God, Psalm 46, how still and for whatlength of time do you think it will be necessary?
to be able to experience God.
When it says be still and know that I'm God, that doesn't mean be still and haveintellectual knowledge of it.
(46:13):
That means be still and experience God.
So in your stillness, see, you've got to have time where you can get quiet.
Put on some of this music that's called Soki music.
There's no words to it.
I mean, literally, sometimes it's almost like the person has only one chord going for ahalf an hour, okay?
actually just put out one last week.
(46:34):
It's something I use.
Yeah, just soft ambient.
where your mind is not distracted to the words and you can just go inward to begin to, youknow, I can do that right now.
This is so simple.
Listen, this is my body, my mind.
I'm still really good at this.
plus 2 equals 4.
(46:55):
4 plus 4 equals 8.
8 plus 8 equals 16.
16 plus 16 equals 32.
Come on.
And then we're going to 64.
And on and on and on.
128.
You can just keep on.
But that's my mind.
Is that all that I am?
Oh my goodness.
That's such a small part because the rest is me.
Find you.
(47:15):
If you can find you, you can find him.
I just want you to know.
It's so important for you to get quiet and feel God.
It's okay to feel Him.
Some say, well, you know, we're getting people.
No, listen, listen, listen.
God is real and you should be able to feel, sense, be aware of His presence.
Everything about what you know.
(47:37):
I could probably look into this camera and I could probably say accurately, most of thepeople I'm looking at right now know enough of the word of God to literally save the
planet.
But do you have the experiences to back it up?
The Holy Ghost was sent so that you could know Him, feel Him, and be connected to Him.
(47:59):
So getting quiet is one of the ways that you can do that.
Now I'm going to challenge you with one other thought because we could take a lot of timehere and we don't have that time.
Why have we learned faith all these years?
It's to use it.
And I'm going to ask you to use your faith on something.
Jesus said very adamantly.
(48:20):
In other words, was very absolute.
He said, My sheep know Me.
My sheep hear Me.
My sheep follow Me.
And I'm going to ask you to do something right here today.
I'm going to ask you to, by faith, choose to believe that you do hear Him, you do followHim, you do see Him, you do know Him.
(48:46):
I'm going to ask you to believe that you do before you hear His voice.
Believe that you do before you sense His presence.
Believe that you do before you experience the experience that you need.
I'm challenging you to believe Him, and I'm challenging you to get quiet so you can feelHim.
Because the moment He becomes real to you, now I'm going to say one last thing.
(49:09):
Adam and Eve were complete sinners, and so were their sons, Cain and Abel.
and they could hear the voice of God in complete sentences and completely recognize Hispresence.
I want you to know right now, if the body of Christ could hear God in complete sentencesand recognize His presence, we wouldn't be on this planet right now.
(49:30):
The whole planet would be changed.
And yet, two sinners, four sinners, could experience that.
I'm not asking you to experience anything that's beyond your right to experience.
God can be real to you, and you can hear Him.
Use your faith for it.
and get quiet and let God be real.
Those are my two things that I would share.
That's awesome man.
(49:51):
Man, that's good.
Hey guys, if you're watching this and you really like what you've been here, we're to getinto more of this.
This is just kind of a launching pad, but we've got advanced Houston coming up at the endof January.
We're going to Houston, Texas and Jim's going to be one of our guest speakers there andChris Beth on the worship team.
They're all going to be there.
It's going be some good, good stuff.
If you're interested in coming, it's absolutely free, but we just ask people to registerjust so we can make sure that everybody is taken care of.
(50:17):
You can very simply go to ChadGonzales.com and click on the events and there's aregistration there.
Also want to encourage you to check out Jim's stuff.
You can go to his website.
We'll have all the information and the notes and stuff like that.
And go to Amazon and check out his books.
We'll have the links in there as well.
So, hey, thanks for taking some time, spending some time with us.
Hope this encouraged you in some things and just beginning to think about what's possiblein your union with Christ and just have a great night.
(50:43):
We love you.
God bless you.
Remember Christ, we always win.
We'll talk to you soon.
Bye bye.
cool.
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