July 30, 2025 • 43 mins
Are you your own harshest critic? What if gentleness—not perfection—was the path to purpose?
Welcome to The Collide Podcast Summer Highlight Series!
All summer long, we’re bringing back some of our most impactful episodes — powerful conversations centered around life-changing collisions with Jesus. Whether this is your first time hearing the episode or you’re revisiting an old favorite, each story is filled with hope, healing, and purpose.
This episode originally aired in November 2024 and quickly became a listener favorite. In this episode, life and leadership coach Jillian DeBritz shares her journey from burnout and perfectionism to gentleness and grace. If you’ve ever struggled with shame, self-criticism, or the pressure to do it all, this conversation is for you.
About This Episode
Jillian invites us into a powerful conversation about self-compassion, shame, and the importance of paying attention to our inner world. Drawing from her personal experiences and coaching work, she offers practical ways to challenge self-critical thoughts, embrace gentleness, and reflect God’s heart in how we treat ourselves.
Meet Jillian DeBritz
Jillian is a certified life and leadership coach, writer, speaker, and host of the Permission Slips Podcast. A former educator and self-described recovering perfectionist, Jillian has personally experienced the toll of burnout. Today, she’s passionate about helping women silence shame and embrace a gentler way of living as they step into their God-given purpose. Her message is filled with encouragement, grace, and practical wisdom for women who long to thrive without sacrificing their well-being.
In This Episode, You’ll Learn
- How embracing self-compassion helps silence shame
- Why gentleness with ourselves reflects God’s own heart
- The importance of paying attention to your thoughts, emotions, and needs
- How asking the right questions can guide personal growth
- What Jesus teaches us about treating ourselves with kindness
How This Episode Will Encourage You
This conversation will help you take a deep breath and release the pressure to be perfect. You’ll be reminded that God is not harsh with you—and you don’t have to be, either. Walk away with hope, renewed compassion for yourself, and practical tools for healing and purpose.
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All the Best – Connect with Jesus and find peace through guided reflections on Mary and Martha’s story, helping you overcome distraction, worry, and comparison.
A 20 Day Walk Toward Gratitude – A beautiful guide with 20 daily reflections, practical tools, and journaling space to help you grow a heart of gratitude.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:13):
Hey there. Welcome to theCollide Podcast. This is Willow,
and I am super excited to bewith you today. I'm handing you an
interview I just had withJillian DeBritz. Jillian has been
a guest on the podcast manytimes, and I keep asking her back
on because I asked. Absolutelylove her. I love who she is. I love
(00:34):
what she does. I love the workshe's doing, the work she's committed
to doing, and I think it'llbless you. I don't know if you're
like me, if you're really goodat self debasing, if you're really
good at telling yourself lies,if you're really good at beating
yourself up, or maybe you knowsomeone who is. Maybe one of your
friends or your spouse, yourkids. Listen to this podcast for
(00:57):
them. It is so helpful andsuch an invitation that Jillian lays
out for us. Take a listen.Jillian, I love having you on the
podcast. You've been onbefore. Have you been on once or
twice already?
Yeah, this is my third time.Oh, my God. Thanks for having me.
You're like a go to podcastguest on the Collide Podcast. I don't
(01:23):
know why I'm singing everything.
I love it. Let's do this thewhole time, please.
No.
I always wanted to be in aBroadway musical. I feel like we're
living the dream right now.
Okay, well, first of all, Ihave a terrible voice, number one.
Number two, I actually. Idon't even want to admit this because
listeners might hate me, but Iactually don't like musicals.
(01:45):
Oh, Willow. Okay, we're justgoing to skip this part because I
really like you and I want tostay friends. But it's okay. It's
okay. We can learn from each other.
Okay, wait, let me clarify,though. I don't like musical movies,
but I like musicals. Like, inperson, theater musicals. But I can't
do a movie where they'resinging the entire movie. Yeah, I
just can't do it.
(02:06):
It's not the same on screen.It's just not the same. The magic
of being in that audience.Like, there's just something really
powerful about that. So I cangive you. I can make space for your
lack of movie musicalenjoyment. That's fair.
Well, so I don't know why I'msinging, but welcome to the Collide
Podcast.
I'm so glad you're here.
(02:27):
Thank you. You've been doingsince we last talked and probably
even before that, but you'vebeen doing a lot of work around this
idea of practicing gentleness.I know that you're you're studying
about it, you're writing aboutit, you're coaching people about
(02:47):
it. Can you like, can we justdefine what it is for? People are
like, what do you meanpracticing gentleness? Like they're
picturing someone like pettinga kitty or something. What's practicing
gentleness?
It's a great question. Yeah,we do have like these kind of rainbows
and butterflies that come tomind when we use words like gentle.
(03:08):
But really it's gentleness forme has become this tool to help women,
to help myself cultivate selfcompassion in order to combat shame.
It's really about cultivatingthat sense of how Jesus sees and
(03:29):
treats me. His posture towardme, his tone of voice toward me.
Choosing to practice receivingthat from him and offering it to
myself so that shame, theenemy's favorite tool, does not have
power. So it's really a shameresilience tool. Yeah. And I can
(03:55):
talk about kind of where thatcame from, but it's for me, it's
about paying attention to ourlives with curiosity and not judgment.
Because judgment and curiositycan't coexist. So it's building in
space to wonder what'shappening without judging ourselves
(04:15):
or condemning ourselves orbeating ourselves up for what we're
noticing.
So let's talk about that alittle bit. Curiosity versus judgment.
What might. If I'm in a momentin my head, what might curiosity
sound like versus what selfjudgment might sound like?
Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me justthink of a moment. Okay. Here's one
(04:40):
that comes to mind supereasily. This morning I had to practice
this for myself. And as I am,you know, starting as a Monday, I
am still early in the schoolyear with my kids. We have not adjusted
to our schedule and I'mexhausted. I can't, like, my brain
just isn't functioning. I hadmultiple things that I forgot this
(05:01):
morning. I knew we had thisconversation coming and I was just,
I, I was noticing that senseof I cannot pull myself together,
I can't do anything right. Iam, you know, words start to come
to mind like such a loser.Stop forgetting things. You don't
(05:22):
have the discipline, you know,like it becomes very self condemning
and critical in my mind whenI'm noticing my reality through that
lens of judgment as opposedto. Then I sat down and I kind of
started going through thesepractices that I'm working on developing.
And I stepped back and I said,okay, really, what, what is my current
reality? I wonder? What arethe circumstances that are impacting
(05:47):
how, what's happening withinme? Okay. One, my kids have had One
full week of school. This isnew. It takes time to transition.
Okay. I haven't been sleepingwell. That's actually a legitimate
need that my body has that Ihaven't been able to meet for lots
of different reasons. Okay,what else? And I'm starting to wonder,
(06:10):
and I'm noticing the factswithout blaming or criticizing myself
for those facts. It's justbuilding. Almost like instead of
being in a courtroom where I'mbuilding a case against myself, I'm
in a laboratory noticing thedata and trying to collect information
(06:33):
for an experiment.
So I love that so much becauseI think a lot of us, our inner voice
is very like we're in acourtroom and we're condemning ourselves
over and over again. Andobviously picking up voices from
our past and experiences fromour past that were sort of recondeming
(06:54):
ourselves constantly. One ofthe things that's interesting to
me is you talk about askingyourself questions. I think for some
people, that might feel likeyou're crazy at first. Like, what?
I'm asking me a question. I doit all the time now, though. But
there was a time that waslike, before I did that and after
(07:14):
I did that where, like, youcould walk out of a social setting,
you're in a bad mood, youdon't know why, and you could do
that your whole life, or youcan say, willow, what just happened
in that space? What justhappened in that space that you walked
in excited to go and you leftand you are unhappy? What is going
(07:37):
on? What is that that we needto begin to do or be given permission
to do that makes us not crazy?It's actually being really self aware,
being a friend to ourselves.What is this thing that we need to
hear from you to giveourselves permission to talk to ourselves?
(08:00):
Yes. Well, that's it. I mean,we just heard it from you. It's that
permission. I love that. Youknow, I love that word, permission,
that we have permission to payattention to our own experience.
One of my favorite authors,speakers, people that have most impacted
this journey for me is Dr.Kurt Thompson, who writes a lot about
shame and the intersection ofinterpersonal neurobiology and spiritual
(08:24):
formation. And he says webecome what we pay attention to.
So there's this idea that thethings that we're paying attention
to shape us, shape the peoplethat we're becoming. We're always
being formed by something,whether we realize it or not. And
so as we're going to the partyor going throughout our lives, we're
paying attention to something,whether we're aware of it or Not.
(08:47):
And so turning our awarenessto what we're actually paying attention
to gives us the ability tostop being formed by forces outside
of us and choose what we'rebeing formed by invites really creating
space. Right? And that's whatI talk about. The work I do as a
life and leadership coach withclients is I help women, specifically
(09:10):
women and men, create space topay attention to their own lives.
Because we live in this worldthat is so crazy fast paced, so full
of distractions. I mean, howmuch pinging happens all day long
with notifications? And howmuch temptation is there to scroll
and to distract and numbourselves from our actual lives?
(09:31):
So the work of payingattention to our inner worlds is
literally work. It'scountercultural and requires a lot
of intentionality. But likewhat you just. That example you just
gave of going to a party, likeyou're stopping that natural. We
talk about our neural pathwayslike we have these trained responses
(09:53):
that are unconscious responsesin our minds that will respond in
a certain way without evenrecognizing what's happening. So
for you to stop long enough toget curious about what's happening
within you, sort of shortcircuits or at least creates a gap
where you get to choose theresponse that you have in that moment
(10:15):
instead of having the neuralpathways that have been trained over
your entire life continue todrive your response unconsciously.
So no, you're not talking toyourself like a crazy person. You're
talking to yourself like avery healthy person that's intent
on building greater well beingand self awareness and growth.
(10:35):
Well, it's interesting becauseit brings up this idea that you have
a relationship with yourself.Yeah, we all have a relationship
with ourself and we might notbe sort of evaluating it, this idea
of paying attention. I want totalk about it a little bit more.
I mean, when I think aboutwomen, and obviously I'm a woman
and have only ever been one,but I look around at us and I see
(11:01):
that we are so good at payingattention to other people. How are
my kids doing? Like, do theyhave their lunches? Have they filled
out their collegeapplications? Do they have a place
to sit in the lunch table? Ihave to go from like home to work
to home to serving and allthese things that we do to serve
(11:27):
everyone in our lives. And Ithink we not only are busy, but it's
almost like we're so good attaking care of other people that
we don't stop a lot in betweenall those moments and take care of
ourselves and ask ourselveshow we're doing. So how do you do
that how do you coach peopleto do that? I mean is that literally
(11:50):
like do you set an alarm onyour phone? I mean how do you make
someone become self aware whohas not historically been invited
to be self aware?
What a great question. Well,and I think it has to start with
desire. Like there has to be alevel of desire to know ourselves
more. I wish I could pull thequote out of the back of my mind
(12:15):
around without. I can'tremember who said it. But without
knowledge of self, there canbe no knowledge of God. That idea
that as much as we knowourselves, like that limits how much
we can know of God and viceversa, as much as we know of God,
it allows us to also knowourselves more. That both are necessary
(12:37):
for our health and ourwholeness and for our spiritual growth.
But we have to have a desirebecause it's a lot more comfortable
to move through our livesunaware. Honestly. There's a lot
more comfort and ease and justgoing with the flow of the cultural
current and what's happeningaround us. It's easier to move through
our days a little bit numbeven. But it takes work and effort
(13:01):
and energy to develop selfawareness. And like you said to pause
whether it's. Yeah, I have hadmoments, seasons where I've set an
alarm on my phone. I actuallyhave it. I don't use it as much.
I'm good at ignoring alarms ifthey are on my phone too often. But
at 1:30 I have a reminder thatpops up that says stop and breathe.
(13:24):
And it was my reminder for along time time for months that I
would stop and practice just afew minutes of centering prayer which
is just a spiritual practiceof kind of quiet contemplation before
the Lord. And it would justhelp me to build in that habit of
stillness. And I think therehas to be some habit change. Yes.
(13:48):
But before that we don'tchange anything that we do. We don't
change any of our behaviorswithout that underlying motivation.
Our emotions, our desire hasto be connected to any change. And
so if someone doesn't want tobuild self awareness, I can't. I'm
not going to be able to doanything for them. But yeah, it's
a practice of training ourminds. Yeah, just retraining our
(14:16):
neural pathways so that we'relearning to notice our internal world.
And that comes more easily forsome of us than others. I don't know,
I'm an enneagram4. And so likegoing to the deep places is like
my sweet spot where I'mmarried to a man who does not prefer
to go to the deep places. It'svery ironic and hilarious how God
(14:40):
brought us together, but so hilarious.
Oh, marriage. Yeah.
That practice of selfawareness, it's for me, I have found
with my clients and in my ownlife that I have to build in some
structure around that. Andover time, as I built in structure,
whether through alarms orthrough coaching or through spiritual
(15:02):
direction or throughcounseling, for me, it's really helpful
to have other people doingthat work with me. Over time, it's
become more and more naturalwhere my muscles have developed,
my self awareness muscles havedeveloped where now I can notice
more quickly, oh, I'm kind ofin the middle of a shame spiral right
now. Like I'm beating myselfup. Hold on, hold on. That doesn't
(15:24):
feel good. I'm noticing thatlet me step back and, and get curious
about what's happening wherethat curiosity wasn't even an option
prior to starting to do thatpractice. That training work of building
some of that self awarenessthat I've been doing for years now.
But it does get easier.
(15:45):
Yeah. When you talk about ashame spiral, can you give an example
of what that looks like?
Yeah, it's any. Well, shamejust to begin, is universal. Brene
Brown taught us this. It's anemotion that is both universal, everyone
experiences it and it'sparalyzing. So it just locks us up
(16:06):
when we're experiencing shame.And it's that deep seated fear belief
that something about us isbroken or flawed and makes us inherently
unworthy of love andbelonging. And so when we have some
sort of trigger that makes usfeel shame, there's a part of our
(16:27):
nervous system that reacts inlike a fight or flight, like, oh
no, oh no, I'm going to berejected. Which emotional pain tracks
the same in our body asphysical pain. So it does almost
feel like a life or deathsituation at times. And so when shame
is triggered, when I look inthe mirror and have these old neural
(16:51):
pathways that are activated ofbody shame that I see the shape of
my body, I see the normalchanges that happen as I'm aging
and I have this shame responsethat makes me think, oh my gosh,
you're so disgusting. Peopleare gonna like judge you. No one's
(17:12):
gonna want to be your friendbecause they're. Which is ridiculous,
right? Like, because I saythese things out loud, I'm like,
that's like so far from thetruth. But in that moment, like my
body is having thisphysiological reaction where it's
like I can feel it. Like Ihave this heaviness in my chest and
in my head and it's like, oh,like your heart kind of drops. And
(17:36):
so what that feels like isthere's something wrong with me.
And it's that self talk of,I'm such a loser, I'm so disgusting,
I'm xy, I can't do anythingright. It's the voice that makes
us feel like we are broken,we're unlovable. Like, if people
(17:56):
knew this about me, they wouldrun the other way screaming. And
the most painful part is thatit feels in the moment. Shame feels
like the truest thing, whichis why we actually can't pull ourselves
out of it alone. So that'spart of this practice of gentleness
that I have really beenworking with women about, is that
(18:21):
we need other people to helpus one, learn how to be gentle with
ourselves. Because most of usdon't know, like, we haven't received
gentleness most of our lives.Even if we had gentle people in our
lives, that's not the normalnarrative that we're used to hearing
spoken over us is gentleness.So we need other people. We need
people that we can be real andvulnerable and raw with. And we need
(18:49):
to be intentional and payattention to that shame when it pops
up, to be brave enough toreach out and ask for the support
that we need both from theLord and from others. And I think
he uses both.
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link in our show notes.
You know, you talk about andyou give this example of body shame
and just you can get in aheadspace where you're just going
off about how disgusting youare and you said shame feels like
the truest thing. And Ithought, yes, it does feel like the
truest thing. And then we acton it.
(20:13):
Yeah.
So what starts to happen issomeone who's feeling the way you
were in that moment that goes,no one wants to be my friend I'm
disgusting. All these things.Then you don't go to the party, then
you don't do certain things.And so now shame is starting to boss
us around. And I think you'reabsolutely right that you can work
(20:38):
yourself to a place where youcan help yourself get unstuck from
the shame spiral. But it doeshelp to have other people invite
you out. Mentioned a coupletimes you talked about self compassion,
this idea of seeing yourselfthe way Jesus sees you, the way Jesus
hears you. I'm curious in allof this work that you're doing on
(21:00):
practicing gentleness, howmuch of it has to draw upon, knowing
what Jesus is like, how Jesuswould react, how Jesus sees you,
how Jesus loves you, how Jesuswouldn't condemn you or shame you.
Like how much of this work ofpracticing gentleness draws from
(21:21):
Jesus?
Yeah, I mean, it's thefoundation. It's the foundation.
And the truth is that Icouldn't practice gentleness toward
myself until I really began tobelieve how gentle he is with me.
And I didn't realize that I.What my beliefs were about, how God
(21:45):
looked at me until I startedto wrestle with this inner resistance
I felt toward gentleness. Andthe truth is there's a book called
Gentle and Lowly by DaneOrtland, and he makes the argument
that the only time Jesusdescribes his heart, we hear a lot
(22:08):
of things that Jesus saysabout himself. You know, these I
am statements. I am the way,the truth and light, I'm the vine.
But the only way that hedescribes himself and his heart is
when he says, I am gentle andhumble of heart. And so the truth
of his character is that howhe wants to show up in every interaction
(22:33):
with us is with gentleness.He's never condemning or accusing.
We know that that's the voiceof the enemy, right? But I started
to, with the help of myspiritual director, actually imagine
Jesus with me in the room whenI was having moments of shame or
even, even outside of thosemoments, as I was reflecting on areas
(22:56):
where I was really strugglingand it took so much work to activate
my sanctified imagination. Butto imagine Jesus sitting next to
me and not with like, afurrowed brow or like shaking his
head in disappointment likethat, if I was honest, that's really
(23:17):
what I was picturing that hewas thinking that he was kind of
arms crossed, you know, kindof on the other side of the room
or even, like even furtheroff, but as I started to imagine
him looking at me withcompassion in his eyes and affection
and tenderness and even liketears kind of glistening when he
(23:41):
heard me share about my pain.Like that started to shift something.
And to be honest, it wasreally hard for me to imagine Jesus's
face at first as I startedkind of practicing, like slowing
down, bringing him my shameand imagining him with me. I felt
like I was kind of graspingfor thin air. Like I couldn't hold
(24:02):
onto this picture of him ascompassionate and gentle. And so
I started to borrow otherpeople's gentleness that I had received.
Like an embodied experience ofa friend sitting with me with compassion
in her eyes, or my counselorlistening to me share my story with
such understanding andtenderness. Or my husband in those
(24:25):
moments where I am just, youknow, overcome or overwhelmed or
whatever, the thing isreaching out his arm and just wrapping
it around me and pulling me inclose to his chest. Like I would
start to imagine those thingsand then imagine Jesus doing those
things for me. And it startedto shift my beliefs about how Jesus
(24:49):
sees me. And then adding inalso practices of listening prayer
and really learning to discernhis voice. Yeah, I would say Jesus
is the foundation ofgentleness. And I have clients who
don't know the Lord that are,you know, we're working on this as
(25:10):
well. And they can borrow someof those same practices with people
that love them. But you and Iboth know that it lacks, it lacks
the power to transform us theway Jesus can and does when we abide.
Yeah, well, I certainly know,I mean, in my own life, combating
(25:32):
shame and having had years ofit with no belief in God, so it was
undealt with shame and whathas helped me over the years. And
you know, we talk aboutcolliding with Jesus around here,
but literally looking at Jesuscolliding with someone who feels
ashamed or who feels wounded,who feels vulnerable, who feels like
(25:55):
a screw up, whatever it may bein the New Testament. And I would
read and I would look at hislife and I would see him showing
up to them. You know, youthink about the woman caught in the
act of adultery. Here she is,she's drugging like trash. She just
was caught in the act. There'sall these men who want to condemn
her and make her feel ashamed.And the way Jesus responds to her
(26:19):
is so stunning. It's sobeautiful. And I would imagine myself
when I would read thesescriptures, I would imagine him colliding
with me. And I would wonder,like, what would he say to me with
the things that I feel ashamedabout? The same Jesus who runs into
the woman caught in the act ofadultery runs into me. And so I highly
(26:42):
believe that even as you'retalking about practicing gentleness
and self compassion, like, I'mwith you on the idea of like, if
you can begin to look at thelife of Jesus and comprehend how
he would treat you in yourcircumstance, and you can see how
he would, because you see himrun into so many different people
(27:03):
and how he interacts with themis so gentle, it is so beautiful,
it's so patient and gracious.And then you can begin to do that
for yourself and do that forother people. So it feels like there's
a huge element of sort of likethe spiritual discipline of going
to God's word and really,really learning who Jesus is and
(27:25):
what Jesus is really. Like,not who Jesus is according to Christians
who are being dumb, but likewho, who Jesus is, which we all.
At times, right, like, we canall put ourselves in that category.
But there is, there issomething really important about
like embodying our faith andallowing what we know about Jesus
(27:46):
to move from our minds wherewe can really intellectualize Scripture.
We can intellectualize what weknow of God and allowing it to trickle
down into our hearts. And thatcomes from embodied experiences with
real people in real life,because we can't really know. Kurt
(28:06):
Thompson again says that if wedon't, When I say to you, God loves
you and you don't feel it inyour chest, it's not real to you
yet. Like, we've got to allowhis love to trickle down in an embodied
way. And we do that with ourrelationships with the people in
front of us. Like, that's,that's how we practice embodying
(28:28):
his love and living it outwhere it's not just this idea of
like, oh, I'm reading theBible and I see this nice idea of
Jesus being kind to thisperson. Oh, he must be kind to me.
That's, that's greatintellectual knowledge. But shame
wants to keep every part of usseparate from one another. Shame
wants to, that's, that's whatshame does. It disintegrates. Disintegrates
(28:51):
the different parts ofourselves. It wants to keep our spiritual
life over here and ourphysical health over here and our
emotional mental health overhere. And it wants to keep our relationships
over here. And it wants tokeep us separate from the people
in our lives. It, you know,comes between us because shame, part
of the neurobiological impactof shame is it makes us want to hide.
(29:14):
It makes us want to isolateand hide. And at the same time it
separates different parts, thedifferent domains of our, our mind,
actually, it separates. And soif we are able to invite Jesus and
invite people into the spaceswhere we feel shame. It melts the
shame away and allows thedifferent parts of us to become integrated,
(29:37):
reintegrated, reconnected andwhole. And so there's this idea of
practicing like we have topractice in our real relationships,
allowing the love of Jesus topenetrate not just as an idea, but
as something we practice andreceive in our bodies in a real and
(29:57):
vulnerable way for it to havethat transforming effect that all
of us want.
Jillian, can you give anexample or two of some work you've
done with people or in yourown life or friends, or I don't know
where you've actually watchedthis become a reality where Jesus's
(30:18):
love moved from someone's headto someone's heart and it actually
was like a shame be gone moment.
Yeah, I mean, I'm thinkingabout how much I've experienced that
for myself. I mean, I'mthinking about, like, several groups
of women that I've been a partof, where we have space where we're
(30:46):
willing and able tointentionally share the real raw
stuff. And there's somethingabout naming and speaking out loud
the things that we'recarrying. Whether it's. Yeah, I'm
thinking of different thingsthat clients and women in my life
have struggled with. Like thatsense of I'm reacting to my kids
(31:08):
in anger, like my. My kid ismisbehaving and I'm exploding at
them and that's not the mom Iwant to be. And then naming that
out loud in the safety offriends who love them. This may have
been me recently saying to myfriends, hey, I do not like the mom
(31:30):
that I am. I do not like howI'm showing up for my kids. This
is not how I pictured it. Thisis not what I imagined I would be
like. And I feel power liststo respond a different way. And as
I say those words out loud,with more tears than are coming out
right now as I'm telling youthe story, but as I say those words
(31:50):
out loud and I see their eyeslooking at me with compassion and
understanding, and they're notcondemning me. They're not like,
oh, you said what to your 13year old? You thought, what about
what you wanted to do to her?You walked away instead of giving
(32:11):
her a hug like you did. What?Like, that's what I expect. Right?
Because that's how I'mtreating myself. And for them to
look at me instead and say,jillian, your response makes so much
sense. That's not who you wantto be. That's not who you really
are, but it makes so muchsense. That must. That must have
(32:34):
been really painful for you tohave them see me, to see my heart
and sit with me and hold spacefor that pain and that shame. And
then for them to stay and notrun away or reject me, but to love
me and draw me in withcompassion. Like, I could literally
feel the shame melting away.There's like, a release, you know,
(32:55):
it's like your shoulders kindof drop, and you just have this,
like, release in your chest.That's one example. I'm thinking
of so many examples inmarriage. Friends sharing recently
about expectations that theyhave for themselves in marriage and
how they want to be easy. Theywant to set their husband up to have
(33:19):
all of these things that. Thatthey want or need. And they're feeling,
like, their own lack of needsbeing met for them to get the things
that they want and needbecause they're trying to set their
husband up, and they'refeeling ashamed that they have all
these needs, and they'restarting to feel resentful, and they're
starting to feel like, oh, Inever get time for myself. I'm sending
my husband to do all thesethings and for us to say, listen,
(33:46):
you're allowed to have needs.You're allowed to want time for yourself.
You're allowed to use yourvoice to ask for support. Your feelings
of resentment are not who youare, and they make so much sense.
Like, that phrase to me, Ithink has done more for melting shame
(34:07):
than almost any other. When Ihear a friend listen with, you can
just see it in their face,right? Like, we have these mirror
neurons that communicate whatthe other person is feeling as they
listen to us. We feel theircompassion. And for someone to say
to Jillian, that makes so muchsense. It just normalizes and dispels
(34:28):
that belief that there'ssomething wrong with me, and that's
why I'm experiencing whateverit is I'm experiencing.
I love both those examples,Jillian. And I know there's people
listening who want this. Theywant this experience you're talking
about where they can be gentleto themselves or experience it from
(34:50):
someone else, and they can seeshame go packing. I'm curious as
we kind of come to a close onour time together today, and I won't
sing my last question, but canyou share some simple daily practices
or affirmations that ourlisteners can kind of start with
(35:11):
right away to begincultivating gentleness in their own
lives?
I actually am putting thistogether as, like, a worksheet to
kind of give people Some toolsto make it a little bit more accessible.
And so I've been using theacronym GENTLE as a way to remember
some ways that we can practicegentleness. And this isn't a formula.
(35:32):
It's not like you have to doall these things all the time. But
sometimes even just having.Having one phrase that I can call
to mind will help. So when Ithink about gentle, being gentle
with myself, I think g firstget curious. It's the idea of practicing
curiosity and not judgment andjust noticing what's the truth about
(35:58):
my current reality? Thatmaking space to pay attention to
our own inner experience whilewithholding judgment. And then e
would be to engagevulnerability, to be honest with
myself and to be honest withothers about what's happening under
the surface that no one elsecan see. Maybe where am I stuck?
(36:19):
Or what is it that I'm afraidof? And really allowing myself to
be fully known and loved againby myself and by others through sharing
what's happening with peoplein my life who I know love me. And
that takes a lot of courage.So get curious, engage vulnerability.
(36:39):
And then n is this idea ofnoticing and naming what is happening
inside of us. There's suchpower in putting words to our internal
experience, especially ouremotional experience. Emotion researchers
talk about how important it isfor us to be as specific as possible
(37:01):
when we're sharing or namingour emotions. Like, the more granular
we can be in our language, themore helpful it is to allow emotions
to be metabolized in our body.It kind of allows everything to move
through us more quickly. So.So if we can name our emotion, like,
what are some emotions thatwe're experiencing? And I always
think of, like, our heart,mind, body, and soul. Okay, my heart,
(37:25):
my emotions. How can I namesome emotions I'm experiencing? My
mind, maybe. What's the storyI'm believing here? Like, what am
I telling myself? My body?What am I even noticing in my body?
Sometimes even payingattention to our own bodies is the
work we need to do. Like,maybe I have tension in my shoulders
that's sending me a message orsome tightness in my belly. Or maybe
(37:47):
I just need to take a napbecause I'm exhausted, and that's
affecting everything else. Andspirit, where is Jesus? Where's God?
In the midst of what I'mexperiencing right now? So that's
the idea of noticing andnaming, looking at all of those aspects
of ourselves. And then t wouldbe to tend with care to. To offer
(38:11):
ourselves the mostcompassionate, generous response
possible, as if we were caringfor a friend. So if there were a
friend in a similarcircumstance with a similar emotion,
similar thoughts, what wouldwe say? And to extend ourselves the
most generous possibleencouragement or permission. And
(38:36):
a lot of times this is hardestfor women because we feel like we're
slacking or giving ourselvesan out or making excuses. But the
truth is that we can't outcompassion. God, as compassionate
as we can be toward ourselves,it's just a drop in the bucket, not
(38:57):
even that of how muchcompassion he wants to offer us.
So. So that's t to tend withcare and then L is to listen to love
and to really open ourselvesto the loving words of the One whose
posture toward us is alwaysgentle and kind. And to ask. That's
(39:18):
the practice for me of gettingstill and saying, God, is there anything
you want me to know? Andreally trusting his heart toward
me. That if there are wordsthat come to my mind as I'm asking
him, he wants to speak to me.And this takes a lot of practice,
right, to learn to discern hisvoice. I know there's other podcasts
and resources that you'vecreated and other people have offered
(39:38):
here for people that want tolearn to hear his voice. But if he
is speaking to me withcompassion, if, if I'm hearing words
that are life giving andloving and in alignment with his
character, I can trust thathis spirit is speaking to me, even
through the things that soundlike my own thoughts. So listening
to love would be L and then Eis to expect to practice. Like we
(40:03):
have to recognize that this isa process that we will be practicing
our entire lives, that we areconstantly being made more and more
into people of love, as JohnMark Comer has said recently that
we're becoming more and moreloving toward ourselves and toward
others, and it's going to takepractice. So specifically looking
(40:24):
for one small, realistic stepthat we can take to practice gentleness
toward ourselves in a way thatrecognizes transformation takes time.
But right now, what'ssomething kind I can do for myself?
So that's the gentle frameworkthat I'm happy to offer to people
(40:44):
too.
I love that. How can peopleget that I love?
Yeah, I'll put it on mywebsite so they can find it@jilliandebritz.com
I'll also link it onInstagram. So it's just Jillian DeBritz
if they want to sign up to getthe Gentle way framework.
Awesome. Jillian, I alwayslove having you on the podcast and
(41:06):
love that you are not justtalking about this, but you're actually
doing this work in your ownlife and one on one with women. And
I, I just absolutely thinkit's beautiful. So thank you for
inviting us into it.
Thank you. Thanks for havingme, Willow. It's always such a joy
to be with you.
(41:26):
You too. Take care, Jillian.
Okay.
Friend, I hope that you feelencouraged to begin to pay attention
to yourself, encouraged tohave more compassion and confidence,
encouraged to go to Jesus andhave him deal with your shame and
(41:46):
encouraged to be more gentleto yourself. I really hope you go
and grab that freebie thatJillian has made for you. And I also
want to remind you of a few ofour resources. If you don't know,
we have a jillion resourcesfor you on our website a wecollide.net
so make sure to check themout. But a few that come to my mind
(42:09):
are I've written four Biblestudy books. I've written more, but
there's four main Bible studybooks that you can check out and
those are so helpful as yourun into Jesus and you see how compassionate
and how loving and how gentlehe is on people in the New Testament,
it truly forms in you a selfcompassion and a self gentleness.
(42:33):
So check those out. We alsohave an anxiety guide that we basically
collaborated with severalcounselors, mental health therapists,
and we created, we curatedthis guide that helps you to manage
some of the anxiety thatyou're feeling. So check that out.
There's also a freebie calledthe Insight Journal and that is is
(42:55):
just a tool to help you becomemore aware. So if you've gone through
a season and you're movingtowards a new season, that's a great
journal that asks you somereally good questions to pay attention
to how you're doing and whatyou want to take with you into this
new season. So make sure tocheck those out and most of all,
keep colliding. Love you.Catch you next week.
Hey there. Welcome to theCollide Podcast. This is Willow,
and I am super excited to bewith you today. I'm handing you an
interview I just had withJillian DeBritz. Jillian has been
a guest on the podcast manytimes, and I keep asking her back
on because I asked. Absolutelylove her. I love who she is. I love
(00:34):
what she does. I love the workshe's doing, the work she's committed
to doing, and I think it'llbless you. I don't know if you're
like me, if you're really goodat self debasing, if you're really
good at telling yourself lies,if you're really good at beating
yourself up, or maybe you knowsomeone who is. Maybe one of your
friends or your spouse, yourkids. Listen to this podcast for
(00:57):
them. It is so helpful andsuch an invitation that Jillian lays
out for us. Take a listen.Jillian, I love having you on the
podcast. You've been onbefore. Have you been on once or
twice already?
Yeah, this is my third time.Oh, my God. Thanks for having me.
You're like a go to podcastguest on the Collide Podcast. I don't
(01:23):
know why I'm singing everything.
I love it. Let's do this thewhole time, please.
No.
I always wanted to be in aBroadway musical. I feel like we're
living the dream right now.
Okay, well, first of all, Ihave a terrible voice, number one.
Number two, I actually. Idon't even want to admit this because
listeners might hate me, but Iactually don't like musicals.
(01:45):
Oh, Willow. Okay, we're justgoing to skip this part because I
really like you and I want tostay friends. But it's okay. It's
okay. We can learn from each other.
Okay, wait, let me clarify,though. I don't like musical movies,
but I like musicals. Like, inperson, theater musicals. But I can't
do a movie where they'resinging the entire movie. Yeah, I
just can't do it.
(02:06):
It's not the same on screen.It's just not the same. The magic
of being in that audience.Like, there's just something really
powerful about that. So I cangive you. I can make space for your
lack of movie musicalenjoyment. That's fair.
Well, so I don't know why I'msinging, but welcome to the Collide
Podcast.
I'm so glad you're here.
(02:27):
Thank you. You've been doingsince we last talked and probably
even before that, but you'vebeen doing a lot of work around this
idea of practicing gentleness.I know that you're you're studying
about it, you're writing aboutit, you're coaching people about
(02:47):
it. Can you like, can we justdefine what it is for? People are
like, what do you meanpracticing gentleness? Like they're
picturing someone like pettinga kitty or something. What's practicing
gentleness?
It's a great question. Yeah,we do have like these kind of rainbows
and butterflies that come tomind when we use words like gentle.
(03:08):
But really it's gentleness forme has become this tool to help women,
to help myself cultivate selfcompassion in order to combat shame.
It's really about cultivatingthat sense of how Jesus sees and
(03:29):
treats me. His posture towardme, his tone of voice toward me.
Choosing to practice receivingthat from him and offering it to
myself so that shame, theenemy's favorite tool, does not have
power. So it's really a shameresilience tool. Yeah. And I can
(03:55):
talk about kind of where thatcame from, but it's for me, it's
about paying attention to ourlives with curiosity and not judgment.
Because judgment and curiositycan't coexist. So it's building in
space to wonder what'shappening without judging ourselves
(04:15):
or condemning ourselves orbeating ourselves up for what we're
noticing.
So let's talk about that alittle bit. Curiosity versus judgment.
What might. If I'm in a momentin my head, what might curiosity
sound like versus what selfjudgment might sound like?
Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me justthink of a moment. Okay. Here's one
(04:40):
that comes to mind supereasily. This morning I had to practice
this for myself. And as I am,you know, starting as a Monday, I
am still early in the schoolyear with my kids. We have not adjusted
to our schedule and I'mexhausted. I can't, like, my brain
just isn't functioning. I hadmultiple things that I forgot this
(05:01):
morning. I knew we had thisconversation coming and I was just,
I, I was noticing that senseof I cannot pull myself together,
I can't do anything right. Iam, you know, words start to come
to mind like such a loser.Stop forgetting things. You don't
(05:22):
have the discipline, you know,like it becomes very self condemning
and critical in my mind whenI'm noticing my reality through that
lens of judgment as opposedto. Then I sat down and I kind of
started going through thesepractices that I'm working on developing.
And I stepped back and I said,okay, really, what, what is my current
reality? I wonder? What arethe circumstances that are impacting
(05:47):
how, what's happening withinme? Okay. One, my kids have had One
full week of school. This isnew. It takes time to transition.
Okay. I haven't been sleepingwell. That's actually a legitimate
need that my body has that Ihaven't been able to meet for lots
of different reasons. Okay,what else? And I'm starting to wonder,
(06:10):
and I'm noticing the factswithout blaming or criticizing myself
for those facts. It's justbuilding. Almost like instead of
being in a courtroom where I'mbuilding a case against myself, I'm
in a laboratory noticing thedata and trying to collect information
(06:33):
for an experiment.
So I love that so much becauseI think a lot of us, our inner voice
is very like we're in acourtroom and we're condemning ourselves
over and over again. Andobviously picking up voices from
our past and experiences fromour past that were sort of recondeming
(06:54):
ourselves constantly. One ofthe things that's interesting to
me is you talk about askingyourself questions. I think for some
people, that might feel likeyou're crazy at first. Like, what?
I'm asking me a question. I doit all the time now, though. But
there was a time that waslike, before I did that and after
(07:14):
I did that where, like, youcould walk out of a social setting,
you're in a bad mood, youdon't know why, and you could do
that your whole life, or youcan say, willow, what just happened
in that space? What justhappened in that space that you walked
in excited to go and you leftand you are unhappy? What is going
(07:37):
on? What is that that we needto begin to do or be given permission
to do that makes us not crazy?It's actually being really self aware,
being a friend to ourselves.What is this thing that we need to
hear from you to giveourselves permission to talk to ourselves?
(08:00):
Yes. Well, that's it. I mean,we just heard it from you. It's that
permission. I love that. Youknow, I love that word, permission,
that we have permission to payattention to our own experience.
One of my favorite authors,speakers, people that have most impacted
this journey for me is Dr.Kurt Thompson, who writes a lot about
shame and the intersection ofinterpersonal neurobiology and spiritual
(08:24):
formation. And he says webecome what we pay attention to.
So there's this idea that thethings that we're paying attention
to shape us, shape the peoplethat we're becoming. We're always
being formed by something,whether we realize it or not. And
so as we're going to the partyor going throughout our lives, we're
paying attention to something,whether we're aware of it or Not.
(08:47):
And so turning our awarenessto what we're actually paying attention
to gives us the ability tostop being formed by forces outside
of us and choose what we'rebeing formed by invites really creating
space. Right? And that's whatI talk about. The work I do as a
life and leadership coach withclients is I help women, specifically
(09:10):
women and men, create space topay attention to their own lives.
Because we live in this worldthat is so crazy fast paced, so full
of distractions. I mean, howmuch pinging happens all day long
with notifications? And howmuch temptation is there to scroll
and to distract and numbourselves from our actual lives?
(09:31):
So the work of payingattention to our inner worlds is
literally work. It'scountercultural and requires a lot
of intentionality. But likewhat you just. That example you just
gave of going to a party, likeyou're stopping that natural. We
talk about our neural pathwayslike we have these trained responses
(09:53):
that are unconscious responsesin our minds that will respond in
a certain way without evenrecognizing what's happening. So
for you to stop long enough toget curious about what's happening
within you, sort of shortcircuits or at least creates a gap
where you get to choose theresponse that you have in that moment
(10:15):
instead of having the neuralpathways that have been trained over
your entire life continue todrive your response unconsciously.
So no, you're not talking toyourself like a crazy person. You're
talking to yourself like avery healthy person that's intent
on building greater well beingand self awareness and growth.
(10:35):
Well, it's interesting becauseit brings up this idea that you have
a relationship with yourself.Yeah, we all have a relationship
with ourself and we might notbe sort of evaluating it, this idea
of paying attention. I want totalk about it a little bit more.
I mean, when I think aboutwomen, and obviously I'm a woman
and have only ever been one,but I look around at us and I see
(11:01):
that we are so good at payingattention to other people. How are
my kids doing? Like, do theyhave their lunches? Have they filled
out their collegeapplications? Do they have a place
to sit in the lunch table? Ihave to go from like home to work
to home to serving and allthese things that we do to serve
(11:27):
everyone in our lives. And Ithink we not only are busy, but it's
almost like we're so good attaking care of other people that
we don't stop a lot in betweenall those moments and take care of
ourselves and ask ourselveshow we're doing. So how do you do
that how do you coach peopleto do that? I mean is that literally
(11:50):
like do you set an alarm onyour phone? I mean how do you make
someone become self aware whohas not historically been invited
to be self aware?
What a great question. Well,and I think it has to start with
desire. Like there has to be alevel of desire to know ourselves
more. I wish I could pull thequote out of the back of my mind
(12:15):
around without. I can'tremember who said it. But without
knowledge of self, there canbe no knowledge of God. That idea
that as much as we knowourselves, like that limits how much
we can know of God and viceversa, as much as we know of God,
it allows us to also knowourselves more. That both are necessary
(12:37):
for our health and ourwholeness and for our spiritual growth.
But we have to have a desirebecause it's a lot more comfortable
to move through our livesunaware. Honestly. There's a lot
more comfort and ease and justgoing with the flow of the cultural
current and what's happeningaround us. It's easier to move through
our days a little bit numbeven. But it takes work and effort
(13:01):
and energy to develop selfawareness. And like you said to pause
whether it's. Yeah, I have hadmoments, seasons where I've set an
alarm on my phone. I actuallyhave it. I don't use it as much.
I'm good at ignoring alarms ifthey are on my phone too often. But
at 1:30 I have a reminder thatpops up that says stop and breathe.
(13:24):
And it was my reminder for along time time for months that I
would stop and practice just afew minutes of centering prayer which
is just a spiritual practiceof kind of quiet contemplation before
the Lord. And it would justhelp me to build in that habit of
stillness. And I think therehas to be some habit change. Yes.
(13:48):
But before that we don'tchange anything that we do. We don't
change any of our behaviorswithout that underlying motivation.
Our emotions, our desire hasto be connected to any change. And
so if someone doesn't want tobuild self awareness, I can't. I'm
not going to be able to doanything for them. But yeah, it's
a practice of training ourminds. Yeah, just retraining our
(14:16):
neural pathways so that we'relearning to notice our internal world.
And that comes more easily forsome of us than others. I don't know,
I'm an enneagram4. And so likegoing to the deep places is like
my sweet spot where I'mmarried to a man who does not prefer
to go to the deep places. It'svery ironic and hilarious how God
(14:40):
brought us together, but so hilarious.
Oh, marriage. Yeah.
That practice of selfawareness, it's for me, I have found
with my clients and in my ownlife that I have to build in some
structure around that. Andover time, as I built in structure,
whether through alarms orthrough coaching or through spiritual
(15:02):
direction or throughcounseling, for me, it's really helpful
to have other people doingthat work with me. Over time, it's
become more and more naturalwhere my muscles have developed,
my self awareness muscles havedeveloped where now I can notice
more quickly, oh, I'm kind ofin the middle of a shame spiral right
now. Like I'm beating myselfup. Hold on, hold on. That doesn't
(15:24):
feel good. I'm noticing thatlet me step back and, and get curious
about what's happening wherethat curiosity wasn't even an option
prior to starting to do thatpractice. That training work of building
some of that self awarenessthat I've been doing for years now.
But it does get easier.
(15:45):
Yeah. When you talk about ashame spiral, can you give an example
of what that looks like?
Yeah, it's any. Well, shamejust to begin, is universal. Brene
Brown taught us this. It's anemotion that is both universal, everyone
experiences it and it'sparalyzing. So it just locks us up
(16:06):
when we're experiencing shame.And it's that deep seated fear belief
that something about us isbroken or flawed and makes us inherently
unworthy of love andbelonging. And so when we have some
sort of trigger that makes usfeel shame, there's a part of our
(16:27):
nervous system that reacts inlike a fight or flight, like, oh
no, oh no, I'm going to berejected. Which emotional pain tracks
the same in our body asphysical pain. So it does almost
feel like a life or deathsituation at times. And so when shame
is triggered, when I look inthe mirror and have these old neural
(16:51):
pathways that are activated ofbody shame that I see the shape of
my body, I see the normalchanges that happen as I'm aging
and I have this shame responsethat makes me think, oh my gosh,
you're so disgusting. Peopleare gonna like judge you. No one's
(17:12):
gonna want to be your friendbecause they're. Which is ridiculous,
right? Like, because I saythese things out loud, I'm like,
that's like so far from thetruth. But in that moment, like my
body is having thisphysiological reaction where it's
like I can feel it. Like Ihave this heaviness in my chest and
in my head and it's like, oh,like your heart kind of drops. And
(17:36):
so what that feels like isthere's something wrong with me.
And it's that self talk of,I'm such a loser, I'm so disgusting,
I'm xy, I can't do anythingright. It's the voice that makes
us feel like we are broken,we're unlovable. Like, if people
(17:56):
knew this about me, they wouldrun the other way screaming. And
the most painful part is thatit feels in the moment. Shame feels
like the truest thing, whichis why we actually can't pull ourselves
out of it alone. So that'spart of this practice of gentleness
that I have really beenworking with women about, is that
(18:21):
we need other people to helpus one, learn how to be gentle with
ourselves. Because most of usdon't know, like, we haven't received
gentleness most of our lives.Even if we had gentle people in our
lives, that's not the normalnarrative that we're used to hearing
spoken over us is gentleness.So we need other people. We need
people that we can be real andvulnerable and raw with. And we need
(18:49):
to be intentional and payattention to that shame when it pops
up, to be brave enough toreach out and ask for the support
that we need both from theLord and from others. And I think
he uses both.
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(19:12):
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(19:32):
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(19:52):
link in our show notes.
You know, you talk about andyou give this example of body shame
and just you can get in aheadspace where you're just going
off about how disgusting youare and you said shame feels like
the truest thing. And Ithought, yes, it does feel like the
truest thing. And then we acton it.
(20:13):
Yeah.
So what starts to happen issomeone who's feeling the way you
were in that moment that goes,no one wants to be my friend I'm
disgusting. All these things.Then you don't go to the party, then
you don't do certain things.And so now shame is starting to boss
us around. And I think you'reabsolutely right that you can work
(20:38):
yourself to a place where youcan help yourself get unstuck from
the shame spiral. But it doeshelp to have other people invite
you out. Mentioned a coupletimes you talked about self compassion,
this idea of seeing yourselfthe way Jesus sees you, the way Jesus
hears you. I'm curious in allof this work that you're doing on
(21:00):
practicing gentleness, howmuch of it has to draw upon, knowing
what Jesus is like, how Jesuswould react, how Jesus sees you,
how Jesus loves you, how Jesuswouldn't condemn you or shame you.
Like how much of this work ofpracticing gentleness draws from
(21:21):
Jesus?
Yeah, I mean, it's thefoundation. It's the foundation.
And the truth is that Icouldn't practice gentleness toward
myself until I really began tobelieve how gentle he is with me.
And I didn't realize that I.What my beliefs were about, how God
(21:45):
looked at me until I startedto wrestle with this inner resistance
I felt toward gentleness. Andthe truth is there's a book called
Gentle and Lowly by DaneOrtland, and he makes the argument
that the only time Jesusdescribes his heart, we hear a lot
(22:08):
of things that Jesus saysabout himself. You know, these I
am statements. I am the way,the truth and light, I'm the vine.
But the only way that hedescribes himself and his heart is
when he says, I am gentle andhumble of heart. And so the truth
of his character is that howhe wants to show up in every interaction
(22:33):
with us is with gentleness.He's never condemning or accusing.
We know that that's the voiceof the enemy, right? But I started
to, with the help of myspiritual director, actually imagine
Jesus with me in the room whenI was having moments of shame or
even, even outside of thosemoments, as I was reflecting on areas
(22:56):
where I was really strugglingand it took so much work to activate
my sanctified imagination. Butto imagine Jesus sitting next to
me and not with like, afurrowed brow or like shaking his
head in disappointment likethat, if I was honest, that's really
(23:17):
what I was picturing that hewas thinking that he was kind of
arms crossed, you know, kindof on the other side of the room
or even, like even furtheroff, but as I started to imagine
him looking at me withcompassion in his eyes and affection
and tenderness and even liketears kind of glistening when he
(23:41):
heard me share about my pain.Like that started to shift something.
And to be honest, it wasreally hard for me to imagine Jesus's
face at first as I startedkind of practicing, like slowing
down, bringing him my shameand imagining him with me. I felt
like I was kind of graspingfor thin air. Like I couldn't hold
(24:02):
onto this picture of him ascompassionate and gentle. And so
I started to borrow otherpeople's gentleness that I had received.
Like an embodied experience ofa friend sitting with me with compassion
in her eyes, or my counselorlistening to me share my story with
such understanding andtenderness. Or my husband in those
(24:25):
moments where I am just, youknow, overcome or overwhelmed or
whatever, the thing isreaching out his arm and just wrapping
it around me and pulling me inclose to his chest. Like I would
start to imagine those thingsand then imagine Jesus doing those
things for me. And it startedto shift my beliefs about how Jesus
(24:49):
sees me. And then adding inalso practices of listening prayer
and really learning to discernhis voice. Yeah, I would say Jesus
is the foundation ofgentleness. And I have clients who
don't know the Lord that are,you know, we're working on this as
(25:10):
well. And they can borrow someof those same practices with people
that love them. But you and Iboth know that it lacks, it lacks
the power to transform us theway Jesus can and does when we abide.
Yeah, well, I certainly know,I mean, in my own life, combating
(25:32):
shame and having had years ofit with no belief in God, so it was
undealt with shame and whathas helped me over the years. And
you know, we talk aboutcolliding with Jesus around here,
but literally looking at Jesuscolliding with someone who feels
ashamed or who feels wounded,who feels vulnerable, who feels like
(25:55):
a screw up, whatever it may bein the New Testament. And I would
read and I would look at hislife and I would see him showing
up to them. You know, youthink about the woman caught in the
act of adultery. Here she is,she's drugging like trash. She just
was caught in the act. There'sall these men who want to condemn
her and make her feel ashamed.And the way Jesus responds to her
(26:19):
is so stunning. It's sobeautiful. And I would imagine myself
when I would read thesescriptures, I would imagine him colliding
with me. And I would wonder,like, what would he say to me with
the things that I feel ashamedabout? The same Jesus who runs into
the woman caught in the act ofadultery runs into me. And so I highly
(26:42):
believe that even as you'retalking about practicing gentleness
and self compassion, like, I'mwith you on the idea of like, if
you can begin to look at thelife of Jesus and comprehend how
he would treat you in yourcircumstance, and you can see how
he would, because you see himrun into so many different people
(27:03):
and how he interacts with themis so gentle, it is so beautiful,
it's so patient and gracious.And then you can begin to do that
for yourself and do that forother people. So it feels like there's
a huge element of sort of likethe spiritual discipline of going
to God's word and really,really learning who Jesus is and
(27:25):
what Jesus is really. Like,not who Jesus is according to Christians
who are being dumb, but likewho, who Jesus is, which we all.
At times, right, like, we canall put ourselves in that category.
But there is, there issomething really important about
like embodying our faith andallowing what we know about Jesus
(27:46):
to move from our minds wherewe can really intellectualize Scripture.
We can intellectualize what weknow of God and allowing it to trickle
down into our hearts. And thatcomes from embodied experiences with
real people in real life,because we can't really know. Kurt
(28:06):
Thompson again says that if wedon't, When I say to you, God loves
you and you don't feel it inyour chest, it's not real to you
yet. Like, we've got to allowhis love to trickle down in an embodied
way. And we do that with ourrelationships with the people in
front of us. Like, that's,that's how we practice embodying
(28:28):
his love and living it outwhere it's not just this idea of
like, oh, I'm reading theBible and I see this nice idea of
Jesus being kind to thisperson. Oh, he must be kind to me.
That's, that's greatintellectual knowledge. But shame
wants to keep every part of usseparate from one another. Shame
wants to, that's, that's whatshame does. It disintegrates. Disintegrates
(28:51):
the different parts ofourselves. It wants to keep our spiritual
life over here and ourphysical health over here and our
emotional mental health overhere. And it wants to keep our relationships
over here. And it wants tokeep us separate from the people
in our lives. It, you know,comes between us because shame, part
of the neurobiological impactof shame is it makes us want to hide.
(29:14):
It makes us want to isolateand hide. And at the same time it
separates different parts, thedifferent domains of our, our mind,
actually, it separates. And soif we are able to invite Jesus and
invite people into the spaceswhere we feel shame. It melts the
shame away and allows thedifferent parts of us to become integrated,
(29:37):
reintegrated, reconnected andwhole. And so there's this idea of
practicing like we have topractice in our real relationships,
allowing the love of Jesus topenetrate not just as an idea, but
as something we practice andreceive in our bodies in a real and
(29:57):
vulnerable way for it to havethat transforming effect that all
of us want.
Jillian, can you give anexample or two of some work you've
done with people or in yourown life or friends, or I don't know
where you've actually watchedthis become a reality where Jesus's
(30:18):
love moved from someone's headto someone's heart and it actually
was like a shame be gone moment.
Yeah, I mean, I'm thinkingabout how much I've experienced that
for myself. I mean, I'mthinking about, like, several groups
of women that I've been a partof, where we have space where we're
(30:46):
willing and able tointentionally share the real raw
stuff. And there's somethingabout naming and speaking out loud
the things that we'recarrying. Whether it's. Yeah, I'm
thinking of different thingsthat clients and women in my life
have struggled with. Like thatsense of I'm reacting to my kids
(31:08):
in anger, like my. My kid ismisbehaving and I'm exploding at
them and that's not the mom Iwant to be. And then naming that
out loud in the safety offriends who love them. This may have
been me recently saying to myfriends, hey, I do not like the mom
(31:30):
that I am. I do not like howI'm showing up for my kids. This
is not how I pictured it. Thisis not what I imagined I would be
like. And I feel power liststo respond a different way. And as
I say those words out loud,with more tears than are coming out
right now as I'm telling youthe story, but as I say those words
(31:50):
out loud and I see their eyeslooking at me with compassion and
understanding, and they're notcondemning me. They're not like,
oh, you said what to your 13year old? You thought, what about
what you wanted to do to her?You walked away instead of giving
(32:11):
her a hug like you did. What?Like, that's what I expect. Right?
Because that's how I'mtreating myself. And for them to
look at me instead and say,jillian, your response makes so much
sense. That's not who you wantto be. That's not who you really
are, but it makes so muchsense. That must. That must have
(32:34):
been really painful for you tohave them see me, to see my heart
and sit with me and hold spacefor that pain and that shame. And
then for them to stay and notrun away or reject me, but to love
me and draw me in withcompassion. Like, I could literally
feel the shame melting away.There's like, a release, you know,
(32:55):
it's like your shoulders kindof drop, and you just have this,
like, release in your chest.That's one example. I'm thinking
of so many examples inmarriage. Friends sharing recently
about expectations that theyhave for themselves in marriage and
how they want to be easy. Theywant to set their husband up to have
(33:19):
all of these things that. Thatthey want or need. And they're feeling,
like, their own lack of needsbeing met for them to get the things
that they want and needbecause they're trying to set their
husband up, and they'refeeling ashamed that they have all
these needs, and they'restarting to feel resentful, and they're
starting to feel like, oh, Inever get time for myself. I'm sending
my husband to do all thesethings and for us to say, listen,
(33:46):
you're allowed to have needs.You're allowed to want time for yourself.
You're allowed to use yourvoice to ask for support. Your feelings
of resentment are not who youare, and they make so much sense.
Like, that phrase to me, Ithink has done more for melting shame
(34:07):
than almost any other. When Ihear a friend listen with, you can
just see it in their face,right? Like, we have these mirror
neurons that communicate whatthe other person is feeling as they
listen to us. We feel theircompassion. And for someone to say
to Jillian, that makes so muchsense. It just normalizes and dispels
(34:28):
that belief that there'ssomething wrong with me, and that's
why I'm experiencing whateverit is I'm experiencing.
I love both those examples,Jillian. And I know there's people
listening who want this. Theywant this experience you're talking
about where they can be gentleto themselves or experience it from
(34:50):
someone else, and they can seeshame go packing. I'm curious as
we kind of come to a close onour time together today, and I won't
sing my last question, but canyou share some simple daily practices
or affirmations that ourlisteners can kind of start with
(35:11):
right away to begincultivating gentleness in their own
lives?
I actually am putting thistogether as, like, a worksheet to
kind of give people Some toolsto make it a little bit more accessible.
And so I've been using theacronym GENTLE as a way to remember
some ways that we can practicegentleness. And this isn't a formula.
(35:32):
It's not like you have to doall these things all the time. But
sometimes even just having.Having one phrase that I can call
to mind will help. So when Ithink about gentle, being gentle
with myself, I think g firstget curious. It's the idea of practicing
curiosity and not judgment andjust noticing what's the truth about
(35:58):
my current reality? Thatmaking space to pay attention to
our own inner experience whilewithholding judgment. And then e
would be to engagevulnerability, to be honest with
myself and to be honest withothers about what's happening under
the surface that no one elsecan see. Maybe where am I stuck?
(36:19):
Or what is it that I'm afraidof? And really allowing myself to
be fully known and loved againby myself and by others through sharing
what's happening with peoplein my life who I know love me. And
that takes a lot of courage.So get curious, engage vulnerability.
(36:39):
And then n is this idea ofnoticing and naming what is happening
inside of us. There's suchpower in putting words to our internal
experience, especially ouremotional experience. Emotion researchers
talk about how important it isfor us to be as specific as possible
(37:01):
when we're sharing or namingour emotions. Like, the more granular
we can be in our language, themore helpful it is to allow emotions
to be metabolized in our body.It kind of allows everything to move
through us more quickly. So.So if we can name our emotion, like,
what are some emotions thatwe're experiencing? And I always
think of, like, our heart,mind, body, and soul. Okay, my heart,
(37:25):
my emotions. How can I namesome emotions I'm experiencing? My
mind, maybe. What's the storyI'm believing here? Like, what am
I telling myself? My body?What am I even noticing in my body?
Sometimes even payingattention to our own bodies is the
work we need to do. Like,maybe I have tension in my shoulders
that's sending me a message orsome tightness in my belly. Or maybe
(37:47):
I just need to take a napbecause I'm exhausted, and that's
affecting everything else. Andspirit, where is Jesus? Where's God?
In the midst of what I'mexperiencing right now? So that's
the idea of noticing andnaming, looking at all of those aspects
of ourselves. And then t wouldbe to tend with care to. To offer
(38:11):
ourselves the mostcompassionate, generous response
possible, as if we were caringfor a friend. So if there were a
friend in a similarcircumstance with a similar emotion,
similar thoughts, what wouldwe say? And to extend ourselves the
most generous possibleencouragement or permission. And
(38:36):
a lot of times this is hardestfor women because we feel like we're
slacking or giving ourselvesan out or making excuses. But the
truth is that we can't outcompassion. God, as compassionate
as we can be toward ourselves,it's just a drop in the bucket, not
(38:57):
even that of how muchcompassion he wants to offer us.
So. So that's t to tend withcare and then L is to listen to love
and to really open ourselvesto the loving words of the One whose
posture toward us is alwaysgentle and kind. And to ask. That's
(39:18):
the practice for me of gettingstill and saying, God, is there anything
you want me to know? Andreally trusting his heart toward
me. That if there are wordsthat come to my mind as I'm asking
him, he wants to speak to me.And this takes a lot of practice,
right, to learn to discern hisvoice. I know there's other podcasts
and resources that you'vecreated and other people have offered
(39:38):
here for people that want tolearn to hear his voice. But if he
is speaking to me withcompassion, if, if I'm hearing words
that are life giving andloving and in alignment with his
character, I can trust thathis spirit is speaking to me, even
through the things that soundlike my own thoughts. So listening
to love would be L and then Eis to expect to practice. Like we
(40:03):
have to recognize that this isa process that we will be practicing
our entire lives, that we areconstantly being made more and more
into people of love, as JohnMark Comer has said recently that
we're becoming more and moreloving toward ourselves and toward
others, and it's going to takepractice. So specifically looking
(40:24):
for one small, realistic stepthat we can take to practice gentleness
toward ourselves in a way thatrecognizes transformation takes time.
But right now, what'ssomething kind I can do for myself?
So that's the gentle frameworkthat I'm happy to offer to people
(40:44):
too.
I love that. How can peopleget that I love?
Yeah, I'll put it on mywebsite so they can find it@jilliandebritz.com
I'll also link it onInstagram. So it's just Jillian DeBritz
if they want to sign up to getthe Gentle way framework.
Awesome. Jillian, I alwayslove having you on the podcast and
(41:06):
love that you are not justtalking about this, but you're actually
doing this work in your ownlife and one on one with women. And
I, I just absolutely thinkit's beautiful. So thank you for
inviting us into it.
Thank you. Thanks for havingme, Willow. It's always such a joy
to be with you.
(41:26):
You too. Take care, Jillian.
Okay.
Friend, I hope that you feelencouraged to begin to pay attention
to yourself, encouraged tohave more compassion and confidence,
encouraged to go to Jesus andhave him deal with your shame and
(41:46):
encouraged to be more gentleto yourself. I really hope you go
and grab that freebie thatJillian has made for you. And I also
want to remind you of a few ofour resources. If you don't know,
we have a jillion resourcesfor you on our website a wecollide.net
so make sure to check themout. But a few that come to my mind
(42:09):
are I've written four Biblestudy books. I've written more, but
there's four main Bible studybooks that you can check out and
those are so helpful as yourun into Jesus and you see how compassionate
and how loving and how gentlehe is on people in the New Testament,
it truly forms in you a selfcompassion and a self gentleness.
(42:33):
So check those out. We alsohave an anxiety guide that we basically
collaborated with severalcounselors, mental health therapists,
and we created, we curatedthis guide that helps you to manage
some of the anxiety thatyou're feeling. So check that out.
There's also a freebie calledthe Insight Journal and that is is
(42:55):
just a tool to help you becomemore aware. So if you've gone through
a season and you're movingtowards a new season, that's a great
journal that asks you somereally good questions to pay attention
to how you're doing and whatyou want to take with you into this
new season. So make sure tocheck those out and most of all,
keep colliding. Love you.Catch you next week.
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