What is Happiness and How to Find it with Lisa Harper (Re-Aired)

Episode Transcript
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(00:07):
Welcome to the CollidePodcast. We're a growing community
of everyday chicks collidingwith Jesus in our mess, our pain,
our joy, and our stories. Wevalue showing up as we truly are,
so that's what you'll findhere. Walls and masks being torn
down so that we can allowJesus to meet us where we truly are

(00:30):
and hear about other womendoing the same. We can't wait to
collide with you.
God's grace for us is 360degree grace, so of course salvation
is the most important step.But then intimacy with God. Goodness
gracious, the things he'srevealed to me even in this past

(00:50):
year make the things I learnedat 55 pale.
Welcome to The CollidePodcast. I'm Willow Weston, the founder
and director of Collide and Iam so excited today to have Lisa
Harper on the podcast. Lisa isa storyteller, theological scholar,
and a Guacamole fanatic, whichI can completely resonate with. She's

(01:13):
the author of 13 books and haswritten and filmed five best selling
Bible study video curriculums.Lisa's vocational resume includes
30 plus years of ministryleadership, including six years as
the director of Focus on theFamily's National Women's Ministry
where Lisa created the popularRenewing the Heart conferences that

(01:33):
have been attended by almost200,000 women. Lisa has been featured
on numerous TV and radioprograms, has spoken at hundreds
of national and internationalwomen's events as well as churches
around the world. She'scurrently working on her doctorate
at Denver Seminary. But mostof all, she's loving being a mama
to Missy, who she adopted in2014. Best selling author and pastor

(01:59):
Max Licado calls Lisa one ofthe best Bible tour guides around.
And Priscilla Shire says aboutLisa, when she speaks up, ears perk
up. So friends who arelistening to the podcast today, get
ready for your ears to perkup. Welcome to the Collide Podcast,
Lisa.
You know Willow, I paid Maxand Priscilla to say that I just

(02:22):
made fresh guacamole and sentthem baked goods until they said
really wildly kind thingsabout me. It's not all true. I have
to confess, Guacamole will go.
A very long way as far as compliments.
Oh listen, if you paid me inguacamole, I would pretty much go
anywhere and do anything. Ilove me some guacamole.

(02:44):
Well hey, we had to cancelyour coming to our Collide Conference
this last spring, but we'verescheduled it for spring of 2021
and people are so excitedabout you coming and we'll make sure
that you're room is full ofamazing guacamole.
Listen, I would walk toSeattle from Nashville if you promised

(03:07):
me a lot of guacamole.
Okay, I'm promising. Hey Lisa,you live a bold life of preaching,
writing and encouraging peopleall over the world to collide with
Jesus. You have an amazingministry. And I'm just wondering
if you can invite us back tohow God got all this started in your

(03:27):
life.
Well, I grew up in a. Well ina home that looked Christian. My
mom was a believer. My dad wasan amazing man later in his life,
but early in his life reallystruggled with some, some issues.
He left us when I was a littlegirl and I came to know Jesus when

(03:47):
I was teeny willow. I was fiveyears old. Our dad had just left
us and the pastor waspreaching on how God our Father doesn't
walk away from his children.And so I remember sitting in the
church. You're way too youngto remember this, but we used to
have these long wooden benchescalled pews. And I was sitting in

(04:08):
a pew hanging onto the back ofthe pew in front of me and just hearing
him talk about how God won'tleave his children, just, you know,
really as a five year old,that was what I wanted more than
anything else was a dad whostayed. And so I walked the aisle
and gave my heart to Jesus andyou know, as best I could understood

(04:30):
as a little kid, I understoodthat my heart was, was sinful and
I needed Jesus to come in andclean my heart and reconcile me into
a right relationship with Godthe Father. But you can imagine how,
you know, how elementary myunderstanding was and what I, even
though I heard people talkabout grace and we sing about grace,
I really, for decadesemotionally was an agnostic. I thought

(04:56):
there was really no way aperfect God could actually delight
in a girl. Like I thought hesaved me because he felt sorry for
me and even went to my firstgo round of seminary in my early
30s. And so, you know, again Icould execute grace. I knew a little
bit of Greek, a little bit ofHebrew, but somewhere in this corner

(05:20):
of my heart I just never feltlike I was good enough for God. But
you know, he promises tofinish what he started. And he has
been extraordinarily kind inmy life and just continues to unravel
the mysteries of his grace,his compassion. And I took a, just
a huge trajectory shift in mylate 30s of all things. I was studying

(05:44):
the Song of Songs, the Song ofSolomon, which is, you know, like
Danielle Steele in the OldTestament, it's Racy I didn't think
I could go there because I wasa single girl and I knew it was like,
you know, kind of wild. But Ispent some time by myself on a little
tiny long weekend sabbaticalin Florida. And it rained the whole
time so I couldn't go to thebeach. And the only thing I had to

(06:06):
read were a couple ofcommentaries. I'd brought on the
Song of Songs in my Bible. Andas I began to read that there's a
place and you know, it's a.It's Hebrew poetry, but it's a love
story. It's this amazing lovestory in the Old Testament and it's
historical as well aschristological. So there really was
a bridegroom named Solomon anda bride named Shulamite. But the

(06:29):
overarching symbolism is thekind of intimacy we can enjoy with
Jesus. And there's this scenein the love story where the bridegroom
says to the bride on theirwedding, Song of Solomon, chapter
4, verse 9. He says, with oneglance of your eyes, you captured
my heart. And I remember aslike a 38 year old reading that and

(06:52):
just almost having the windknocked out of me. I thought, oh,
oh my goodness, I havecaptured God's heart. And my life
really began to shift in mylate 30s. Even though I was in vocational
ministry for years prior tothat. I began to really believe that

(07:13):
God delights in me, that hislove is not based on my deservedness
or lack thereof, it's based onhis compassion, his character. And
so, you know, have been aChristian for a long, long time,
have been a Christian whoactually believes that a God like
that delights in a girl likeme for probably just the last 15,

(07:34):
20 years of my life.
What do you think happens inus when we move from that place of,
you know, you kind ofdescribed it as you thought God felt
sorry for you, but to move toa place where you knew without a
shadow, that God delights inyou. What do you think changes in
a woman when she begins tobelieve that?

(07:54):
Yeah, I think everythingchanges. I really believe there's
such a dramatic internal shiftthat you can see it on the outside
of us. You know, I say we gofrom being kind of head down. I'm
not saying every human beingis shrouded in shame, but I do think
some measure of shame is partand parcel of the human condition.

(08:19):
I think since we were createdin God's image for God's pleasure,
when we are not actuallywalking and believing God's pleasure,
I think there is. Our livesare muted if you will. And we're
always kind of searching forlove in all the wrong places, even
as believers. You know, one ofmy favorite books, when I was getting

(08:39):
my master's in seminary, itwas called. Well, it's a great old
book. It's called Addictions ABanquet in the Grave by Dr. Ed T.
Welch. And in that book, heequates addiction. And at the time,
I was working a lot with womenin addiction recovery, so I was really
interested in that. But heequates addiction to spiritual poverty.

(09:00):
And he says that addiction isultimately a disorder of worship.
So even though, like some ofmy dear friends, I have not struggled
with narcotics or alcoholaddiction, I, as I got older, really
did consider myself arecovering addict because I had run
to all the wrong places andall the wrong people looking to have,

(09:22):
you know, that cavern in myheart filled. And so I was always
running scared because peoplecannot perfectly love you the way
we were wired to be loved. Youknow, I was very attracted to abusive
men in my 20s and 30s. I teaseand say that my husband is lost and
won't stop to ask fordirections because I'm 56 and single.

(09:43):
But truth of the matter is, Iwas just really scared. I was scared
of intimacy. And so Isabotaged any healthy relationship
I had and actually felt morecomfortable in the toxic, abusive
relationships. And I thinkit's because I didn't feel worthy.
And when you begin torecognize again, it's not about our

(10:03):
worthiness, it's about God'scompassion, then it just takes that
cover of fear off. I becamemuch more willing to risk loving
laterally when I began toreally marinate in the love God had
for me. That's. I don'tbelieve I ever would have stepped
into the risk of adopting mylittle girl had I not began to step

(10:27):
into, really lean into theembrace of God. So I think it changes
everything. I think it shiftsour human relationships into a much
healthier place. I think webegin to recognize, goodness gracious,
you know, Jesus Christ is theonly place I'll get the kind of emotional
empathy and fulfillment andpeace and hope and joy. And so we

(10:49):
kind of quit being life suckson other people or allowing other
people to suck the life out ofus. So if you're not plugged in first
and foremost to God being thelover of your soul, I think every
other relationship suffers.
I just love your story when Ipicture you walking past the pews
down the aisle because youwanted your father to stay with you.

(11:12):
And now your life is beingused to minister to other Women who
have those little girls insideof them that still long to be wanted
by a father that encourage youthat this complete turnaround happened
in your life where not onlydid the father meet you, but now
he's using you to meet othergirls like you.

(11:33):
Yeah, it's been, it has beenthe coolest thing, Willow, because
I, and I think we tend tothink of our journey with God as,
you know, it's like you havethis turning point when you get saved
and then, you know, as Paulsays, we're new creation. You know,
the old has passed away, thenew has come. But I think sometimes

(11:54):
we miss out on the journeyitself because it's not just about
salvation. God's grace for usis 360 degree grace. So of course,
salvation is the mostimportant step. But then intimacy
with God, goodness gracious,the things he's revealed to me even
in this past year make thethings I learned at 55 pale. So when

(12:19):
I meet followers of Christ whohave gotten to a jaded place or a
place where they feel liketheir prayers are hitting the ceiling,
I always want to encouragethem and say, remember, remember,
remember our latter days. Godpromises are going to be better than
the former. There's no suchthing as coasting when it comes to
a relationship with God. Itjust gets better. And I can tell

(12:42):
you as a, as a 56 year oldfollower of Christ, when I look back,
I started vocational ministrywhen I was 22, right out of undergrad,
started working for a youthministry in Nashville. I grew up
in Orlando, Florida, so theidea that I would move to Nashville,
I remember just having feardeep in my bones. I thought, oh,
goodness gracious, it's goingto be all cracker barrel and country
music. And moved up here andfell in love with the culture and

(13:08):
the people in Nashville. I getto travel all over the world now.
But man, I am a Tennessee girlnow, through and through. But you
know, I thought that was it.You know, I finished college, finished
undergrad, I get to talk tokids about Jesus. This is it. And
when I look back at my life 30years ago, I'm like, boy, you talk
about seeing through the glassdimly. I didn't have a clue as to

(13:34):
big and kind and glorious ourredeemer is. And so I'm just, I love
encouraging people from thisvantage point. You just keep taking
the next right step towardJesus because it really does get
better. It gets morepassionate, it gets more exciting.
I mean, I just love it. Mylittle girl is 10 years old and we

(13:57):
were praying last night when IWas putting her to bed, and I was
read this book with her everynight called the Jesus Storybook
Bible. And so we were. I wastelling her the story about John
the Baptist last night, andshe got really stuck on the fact
that he ate bugs. And you. Ijust got so tickled because I thought,
yeah, I remember, you know, asa kid getting stuck on that too,

(14:20):
because, you know, it takes alittle while to get, oh, my goodness,
he was a messenger for Jesus.Oh, my goodness, the passion. John
the Baptist. She's justgetting in part now, and she'll get
even more next year and evenmore the next year. But to know that
our trajectory with Jesus getsbetter, I mean, goodness gracious,

(14:41):
that's what gets me up in themorning. I love running this race
called faith.
If I did the math right, youhave about 40 years of ministry and
leadership under your belt.And I'm just curious, as younger
leader and woman in ministry,I mean, I'm dying to know, what would
you say has been the greatestjoy, but also.
The greatest challenge, youknow, the greatest joy? I think in

(15:06):
my heart of hearts, I'm aBible teacher and an evangelist.
And so anytime I get to seethe lights go on and somebody go,
God loves me, that. I mean,that just lays me. And so my greatest
joy is seeing people come faceto face with Jesus, seeing people

(15:27):
fall in love with Jesus,seeing people recognize, oh, my goodness,
a God like that really doeslove a girl like me. And that's both
people, you know, beginningtheir relationship with Jesus and
then on through. I was rightbefore COVID I was at a conference
where there were a couple ofolder women in attendance. And I

(15:49):
was talking about shame. And Iwas talking about how, you know,
when Paul says in Romans thatthere is now therefore no shame or
condemnation for those of uswho are in Christ Jesus. I said he
wasn't being hyperbolic. Imean, that is absolutely true. We
can exchange our shame forpeace and contentment as we walk

(16:10):
with Jesus. And I told part ofmy own story. There's some sexual
abuse in my story and a rapeand some stuff that just really had
me feeling dirty and not goodenough again for decades. You know,
I could go to seminary andmemorize a lot of theology, but my
own understanding, you know,theology has to be lived, not just
memorized. And so it's hardfor me to apply it to myself. Well,

(16:33):
so as I started sharing my ownstory, I just noticed this kind of
older one in the back seemed.She seemed really affected. And,
you know, I'm always like, oh,goodness, Did I say something that
offended them? Because I'm notyour stereotypical Bible teacher.
You know, I ride a motorcycleand wear leather pants. And, you
know, theologically I'm realconservative, but sociologically,

(16:55):
I'm a little left to center.And I thought, oh, man. I probably
used some phrase or somemodern terminology that upset this
woman because she seemedagitated. And afterwards she came
walking up to me. I found outlater this woman was 82 years old,
and she was like, lisa, I justhave to talk to you about some of
the stuff you said aboutshame. And I was kind of bracing
myself for her to say, youspoke too intimately about God. Or

(17:19):
maybe you weren't quite asformal as you needed to be in your
delivery. And instead shesaid, I came to know Jesus when I
was a little girl. But she,too, had experienced abuse when she
was younger. And because wetend to take our human experience
and overlay that on who Godis, she had spent her entire life

(17:41):
feeling like God was ashamedof her and that God wasn't completely
safe because when she was ayoung woman, the men in her life
weren't completely safe. Andshe said, I feel like for the first
time time in my life, I'm 82years old. I feel like I'm getting
that he actually loves me. AndI'm telling you, Will, that kind

(18:04):
of stuff. And of course, wecan't conjure that up. Only the Holy
Spirit can give people thatkind of cognizance and can soften
their hearts where they canreceive the truth of his gospel.
But when you get to be asteward of the gospel and see how
much the love of Godtransforms people and rescues people

(18:25):
and restores and heals, Imean, again, that's why I get up
in the morning. I believe thegospel is true. I believe God, because
of his mercy, is a knowableGod, at least partly knowable. You
know, we can't fullyunderstand him with human minds,
but he makes himselfaccessible to us. And so that is.
That's the story of my life.It keeps getting better. Just like

(18:48):
I said, intimacy with Jesusdoes. I'm 56. Started vocational
ministry at 22. So what isthat? What is that, 34 years? I can't
do the math that great. That'swhat happens when you are 56. And
I wouldn't trade a season. Andthat isn't to say all the seasons

(19:08):
have been, you know, perkyseasons. It's not that at all. There
have been some. There's beensome great grief in my life, some
great loss, but I reallywouldn't trade it because of the
way God revealed himself to meduring those seasons. And then it
just keeps getting better. Youknow, I became a mom at 50, so I

(19:28):
went through menopause andmotherhood at the same time. And
just can't even tell you whata kick that was, but how glorious
it's been because I thought Ihad, you know, I thought I had sabotaged
that part of my life because Iwas. Was into so many toxic relationships.
And, you know, by the time Igot healthier, my ovaries were raisin.

(19:49):
So I thought, well, motherhoodis and the cards for me. And then
just through a series ofmiracles and the miracle of adoption,
got to bring this pumpkin homefrom Haiti named Missy. Her first
mama died, and my little girldidn't. She was an orphan. She was
an orphan, literally. I hadspent so many years as an emotional

(20:11):
orphan. The fact that I got tobe her second mama and God had been
redeeming me from that orphanspirit. I mean, it's just been. I
couldn't write a story betterthan this.
Wow. Take us back to when youfirst considered adopting and how
you came to meet Missy.

(20:34):
Well, I'll tell you the hardpart of it, because I bet you more
of your listeners wouldresonate with the hard part than
the, you know, the happyending part. I was, again, I assumed
that I had just sabotaged myshot at kind of a happily ever after
because I was so broken and soscared relationally in my 20s and

(20:55):
30s. And so I don't for amoment believe our God is capricious,
but I do think there'sconsequences to sin. And I had some
relational sin in my life,some real toxicity. So I thought,
you know, that's just thething. I miss the window to be a
mom. Well, when I was 40 yearsold, I went to a women's conference
and heard a speaker talkingabout adoption. And I had my best

(21:20):
friend and I, when we had aBible study in high school, both
of us had committed to adoptwhen we were 17 years old. But of
course, you know, we were justpassionate, wet behind the ears Christians.
We didn't really know what wewere committing to. She went on to
get married right out ofcollege and adopt, but I'd almost
forgotten, you know, makingthat promise when I was 17 year old,

(21:42):
because again, I assumedadoption went along with, you know,
the white dress and the ringon my finger and everything else.
And so at about 40, I heardthis woman talking about. She was
talking about adoption, shewas talking about orphans, and she
said there were 147 millionorphans in the world as we know it

(22:05):
today. And then she quotedthat super familiar verse from James
where it says, as Christfollowers, we're supposed to take
care of the poor and themarginalized. What is an orphans?
And then the speaker was TeenyWillow. She was like, I don't know,
110 pounds, blonde, obviouslygluten free. But she got really bossy
after she said that. She said,you know, after she said, what are

(22:26):
you, you know, taking care ofwhat is an orphan? She just kind
of paused and looked out atall of us. And then she said, what
are you doing about it? And Ithought, what am I doing about it?
I'm 40 years old, I'm notmarried, I'm in ministry. I mean,
I'm basically a nun. What inthe world can I bring to the table
of orphan care? But you know,sometimes the Lord will just hook

(22:49):
in your heart and you justcan't quite let go of that conviction.
And so after praying about itfor a week, I thought, you know,
maybe I should do a short termmission trip or take a sabbatical
and spend three years inorphan care, maybe in a third world
country or give more of myoffering to orphan care. You know,

(23:09):
I wasn't sure what I wassupposed to do, but I just couldn't
quite shake the feeling thatGod was prompting me to do something
with regards to orphan care.She talked about the fact that millions
and millions of orphans willdie before they even get through
infancy because of reallysimple things like having access
to clean water. And so, youknow, my heart was really stirred

(23:30):
over the crisis of orphan. Andso after about a week I thought,
you know, I'm just going totell the girls in my small group
because I've never been thesharpest tool in the shed. I'm not
sure that I can really hearexactly where God is steering me.
So I'm just going to tellthese four girls I'm close to to
pray with me and for me, soI'll be alert to what God wants me

(23:52):
to do. And three of thembasically said, we've got your back,
we'll pray with you. And oneof them said, you know, if you have
time later on this week, I'dlove to talk to you about this further.
And so I met with thisindividual girl from church who I
knew pretty well, or thought Idid over coffee. I was 4 years old.
And after a little bit ofsmall talk, she basically said, lisa,

(24:14):
I think you have ruined yourshot at motherhood. She said, you
have shared with our smallgroup that you were molested when
you were younger. And I knowyou've been to a lot of counseling
and stuff, but just in caseyou weren't fixed, you might unwittingly
transfer the trauma youexperienced as a child onto a child
of your own. So she said, Idon't think you should pursue motherhood

(24:37):
through adoption. Just in caseyou were thinking about that, I think
if you want to nurturesomething, you should go to the Nashville
Humane Society and adopt a dogbecause you're really good with pets.
And will, I wish I could tellyou that, you know, that I recognize
this woman's just a crookedlittle tree somewhere in her backstory.

(24:59):
She experienced something, astorm or a drought, that it bent
her trunk because she's notbearing good fruit. What's falling
out of her mouth is notcongruent with God's word because
Jesus doesn't use shame as amotivational tool. But what she said
connected with my deepestfear. And that was that the abuse

(25:21):
and the mistakes from my pasthad somehow put a lid on my future.
And so as a 40 year old woman,I had already been through seminary,
you know, how to masters oftheology. I worked for a church.
I'd been in vocationalministry. But shame still had a corner
of my heart. And so after Imet with that woman, I put the adoption

(25:44):
application I'd printed outsecretly and was praying over. I
put it in the very back of myfile drawer. And the next day when
I got off work, I drove to theNashville Humane Society and I adopted
a dog named Sally, a lab withbladder control problems. And you
know, I just, I just.
Is this a background? That was funny?

(26:06):
Yeah, yeah, she was. She's thegreatest dog. She's really dribbly,
but she was a good dog. Ispent seven more years really wrestling
with whether or not kind of Iwas good enough to be a mom. And
of course I was. I wasn't sureabout the theology. Is it even okay
for a single woman to adopt?And I finally got the point. You

(26:32):
know, I'm slow to learn, but Ifinally got the point of realizing
we live in a fallen world. Ibelieve every kid deserves a mom
and a dad, but there'smillions and millions of children
who die every year, not tomention age out of foster care without
ever having the blessing of afamily. And so I met with an adoption

(26:56):
agent and I said, I don't. Idon't want a child. I don't want
an infant, a healthy infant,because usually they have a great
shot at a Mom and a dad. But Isaid, if there's a kid out there
somewhere who, you know, afluffy single woman in Tennessee
would be the better optionbecause they're facing death or dire
circumstances, I'd love to beconsidered there. And I was 47 years

(27:18):
old. I lost my first twoadoption attempts. One of them was
just devastating because itwas at the 11th hour, four days before
I was supposed to bring a babyhome. Her biological mama was a hardcore
meth addict. And it's a longstory, and I'm not legally able to
tell all the details, but, Imean, I was devastated. I wasn't

(27:42):
sure I could peel myself backup off the pavement, you know. And
two weeks later, a girl Ihadn't seen in years, I had actually
led a Bible study through ayouth ministry I did when she was
in college. But she called andsaid, you know, I don't know if you
remember me. And I was like,of course I remember you. And she
said, well, I heard throughthe adoption grapevine that you lost

(28:03):
a baby at the 11th hour. Andshe said, lisa, I'm calling because
I just got home from Haitilast night. And she said, while I
was in Haiti, one of the youngmoms died of aids, and she left behind
a two and a half year oldnamed Missy who has HIV and tuberculosis
and cholera. She said thedoctors in Port au Prince have said

(28:24):
she probably only has abouttwo months to live. If somebody,
really, anybody from a firstworld country doesn't step in the
gap for her because shedesperately needs ongoing medical
attention, there's nobody tocare for her. And she said they're
not sure she will even makeit. And she's not yet in an orphanage,
so it's going to be a reallylong, probably drawn out process.

(28:47):
And she said, while I wassitting there in the emergency room,
you know, holding this littlegirl in Port au Prince, she said,
God whispered to me. And Godsaid, lisa Harper is supposed to
be this little girl's mom. Andshe said, so I know you're still
really grieving the loss ofAnna Price. That was the baby I was
supposed to bring home. Andshe said, I don't know if you have

(29:07):
the emotional bandwidth toeven make this decision, but would
you pray about the possibilityof stepping into Missy story and
trying to adopt her? And Isaid no. Told her I'd been praying
about it for 30 years to signme up. And then, Willow, I got off
the phone and said a wordthat's not in the Bible, because
I thought, oh, goodnessgracious, you know, what am I thinking

(29:29):
this is way outside of mywheelhouse. I don't know how to adopt
a child in Haiti who hasserious medical problems. And I think
that's another just preciousthing about our Creator Redeemer.
He doesn't expect us to knowhow to do it. All he wants is for
us to take the next step infaith. And so I was overwhelmed,

(29:52):
but I said yes. Six weekslater, I stepped into Missy's village
in rural Haiti and they puther in my arms. She didn't like me
at all at first because, youknow, I was just big and pale and
scared looking. But after alittle while, first thing she said
to me was she reached up andgrabbed my pinky finger and she said,

(30:13):
hello, Mama Blanc, whichmeans, hello, White Mama. And I was
like, stick a fork in me, I'mdone. And so that was April of 2012.
And I brought her home toTennessee in April of 2014. And by
the grace of God and greatmedicine, she's healthy as a horse.
I was just swimming with herthis morning with our. We have a

(30:36):
dog. I got her a new dog forChristmas that I think swallowed
a demon. This dog is wild as abuck. So we're trying to swim the
dog so that she'll take naps.But it's just. It really has been
extraordinary. Life is notalways easy, but goodness gracious,
it is so joyful and peaceful.If you're walking it with Jesus,

(30:57):
you know, our grief. I wasthinking about this last night and
then I read something today byAnn Voskamp that was so, so good.
Everything Ann writes isprofound, but it was talking about
the fact that we can grieveand have joy at the same time. That
that's part and par of being aChrist follower. We grieve that we're
in the already, but the notyet. You know, we have already seen

(31:19):
the first coming of Christ.We've already seen the fullness of
God in Christ. He's not yetcome a second time. So in this already,
but not yet that we're in,there's really awful stuff. Some
of the stuff that's beingprotested is heart wrenching. Needs
to change. Covid, you know,cut a devastating swath. People lost

(31:43):
their lives, they lost theirlivelihoods. A very, very dear person
to me committed suicide. Sothere is goodness gracious, ongoing
pain and suffering and thingsthat so desperately need redemption
in the world as we know it.But if you're hanging on to Jesus,

(32:04):
there's also joy in the midstof sorrow. And that's really been
the story of My life.
Lisa, I absolutely love andresonate so much with so much of
the way that God has met youin your pain and is now using it
to bring beauty into otherpeople's lives. And that's so much

(32:25):
the collide story. I, I'mwondering if we can, and I have many
questions I want to ask you,but if we can go backwards even to
the conversation with thatwoman that really triggered the shame
that you were already feeling.And then you talk about like this
seven year window that you hadto work through and wrestle through

(32:46):
that shame with God, get to aplace where you were willing to believe
that you could be a good mom.Yeah, I think about so many people
listening right now who are inthat seven year window. You know,
it might not be seven years,it might be 20, it might be one.
I don't know what it is. Butwhere they're trying to fight to
come out winning the victoryover the shame that holds their life

(33:11):
back from the thing that theyfeel like God is calling them to
do. What. What is some of youradvice on being in that place to
come out winning the fightagainst shame?
Yeah, you know, it's verysimple. But the, probably the deepest
advice I would give them is totake the next step. I think so many

(33:31):
of us become paralyzed becausewe can't see around the corner of
our circumstances. And so thethought, oh goodness gracious, how
could I be a parent? How couldI get married? How could I have a
marriage that's healthy? Howcould I be in vocational ministry?
How can I share Christ with myco worker? How can I forgive my abuser?

(33:53):
We all have something thatseems almost impossible. And I think
we get paralyzed when we lookat the big picture, at the impossibility
of it. And that's one of thethings that held me back for years
is going, goodness, there's noway I could get to there. And I was
standing at A, looking at Zinstead of going, okay, with the

(34:16):
help of God, by the grace ofGod, I can get to B, let me take
the next right step. And sothat would be my encouragement sometimes
doing the next right thing infaith, trusting God. It may be a
wobbly step, it may be just afew inches of a crawl, but movement

(34:38):
is the miracle to move fromthe place you're stuck and to say,
God, I believe. Help me in myunbelief. Just like that daddy with
a sick child. In Mark'sgospel, you just get up off the curb
you've been stuck on and go,I'm going to take one step don't
think, how am I going to run amarathon? Just get up off the couch.

(35:03):
And when you take that onestep, he so graciously illuminates
the next and the next, and hegives us manna and grace for today,
not tomorrow. So I wouldreally strongly encourage the people
who feel stuck. Don't look sofar ahead. Don't try to figure out
how you're gonna. How you'regonna experience the miracle today,

(35:27):
just today, move one stepforward in the arms of God. By the
grace of God, just do the nextright thing. If you're not sure what
the next right thing is, thenyour next right step is to go before
God and say, help me. Show me.He promises in Isaiah that he will

(35:48):
be so clear in his directionsthat we will actually know whether
to turn right or to turn left.And so if you feel so stuck that
you aren't even sure what thenext right step is, your next right
step is to be alone with Godin his word through prayer, and just
say, lord, you promised thatif I seek you with all my heart,

(36:09):
you will be found by me. SoI'm seeking you. I'm asking for directions.
And then just do the smallestredemptive movements, and he'll string
those together for a miracle. Cool.
I. I read some of your work,and I have heard you talk about how
much being a mom has enrichedyour life. And I know even you sharing

(36:34):
with us today that yourchildhood brought about quite a bit
of pain. I'm just wondering,how are you seeing God bringing redemption
to your life, using Missy todo that?
Oh, gosh, Willa, do we have 45hours for this podcast? I mean, in

(37:00):
millions of myriads of ways.I'll tell you what the biggest is,
and this is prettynarcissistic, but the biggest miracle
for me is at my. When and whenI became Missy's mom. I can't explain
it. I don't have even thetheology to try to explain it. You

(37:22):
know, I'm studying for mydoctorate, and so I've got lots of
$50 words memorized, but Ican't begin to wrap theology or physiology
around this. But I'm tellingyou, the shape of my heart changed.
I feel like my heart grew andthe topography of my heart changed

(37:43):
when I became a mom. And thelove I have for this little girl,
it does not make sense. Youknow, I didn't carry her in my womb.
I didn't get to bring her homeuntil she was four. The first time
I met her, she was two and ahalf. And she didn't like me. And
I mean, it's like every cellin my body changed shape. Missy is

(38:05):
not my hope. Jesus is my hope.But Missy is the greatest human gift
God has given me. And when Ithink of how I've changed, even with
regards to my capacity to loveeverybody else, not just Missy, my
heart has more capacity. Ithink, oh, my goodness. My love for

(38:27):
my kid is a drop in the oceancompared to God's love for us. You
know, in Latin, in there's aphrase that's a fiori torre logic,
and it's how much more. AndJesus used that logic when he would
tell a story about how a humandad was a good dad. And then he would

(38:50):
say, how much more does yourFather in heaven love you and long
to give you good gifts? Andthat has probably been the greatest
epiphany for me, is to go, mygoodness gracious. I didn't know
I could love like this untilthrough his mercy, he allowed me

(39:12):
to become Missy's second mom.The fact that his love for me is
infinitely greater than that,I mean, it's just given me this new
appreciation, new gratitude.I'm so grateful that he allowed me
to become a mom. I didn'tdeserve to be this kids mom. That
is God's kindness. And thatgratitude is a drop in the bucket

(39:35):
for the gratitude. I feel thatGood night. He loves me infinitely
more than I love my daughter.So I feel like it has just given
me a clear picture of how bigthe compassion is of God for us.
And I think as much as I'vewanted to believe he's a loving God,

(39:57):
it helps me too, that evenwhen I discipline Missy, I don't
discipline Missy because I'mmad at her. I discipline Missy almost
99 times out of 100. It's toprotect her. You know, I discipline
her when she was doingsomething that she didn't realize
because she's a little girl,could have hurt her. Whether it was,

(40:18):
you know, starting to run outin front of traffic or, you know,
touching the stove when it washot. My discipline me holding her
back is because I love her andI want the best for her. So even
in that, you begin to go, oh,my goodness. Things that God, barriers,
boundaries, God has put in mylife are for my good and my protection.

(40:38):
He's not a unibrowed librarianwho's waiting to smack me over the
head with a Bible if I stepout of line. He's a perfectly loving
parent who's doing everythingfor my good to redeem my mind. And
my heart to restore me. And sothat, you know, I'm beginning to
see and believe bigger thefact that God is, for me, he's such

(41:04):
a good God.
I love, I love your story. AndI. I think about Deuteronomy 33 that
says, God, your God, willrestore everything you lost. He'll
have compassion on you. He'llcome back and pick up the pieces,
all the places, places whereyou were scattered. And it sounds
like God is using Missy to dothat in your life and using you to

(41:25):
do that in her life. And it'ssuch a. Such an amazing story. You
know, I have to ask you, inthis crazy time, there's just so
much going on right now inresponse to the death of George Floyd
and the long list of all thosewho've been oppressed, wronged, and
mistreated before him. Andpeople are starting to be educated

(41:46):
about racism and beginning toawaken to systematic racism. And
thousands upon thousands havebeen protesting and fighting for
Black Lives Matter in the lasttwo weeks. And I'm just wondering
if you can let us in a bit onyour heart as a white mom raising
a black daughter and whatyou're learning about the obstacles

(42:06):
in the way of giving her theprivileges, rights and opportunities
and the great life shedeserves, like any other white child.
Yeah, it's a great question.It's a huge question. I think it's
the question that God has setbefore us for such a time as this.

(42:27):
One of my favorite quotes longbefore this happened is, I don't
know if you've read EliWeasel's book Night regarding the
Holocaust, but profound book.And in it he says, the opposite of
love is not hate. The oppositeof love is indifference. And I think

(42:48):
there has been grossindifference to injustice in our
culture and specifically inour country, racial injustice. And
there were so many things Ididn't realize I was indifferent
to until I brought my daughterhome from Haiti. And we live in the
south, southeastern U.S. wherethey're, you know, they're tended

(43:10):
to. There tends to be some.Some things that maybe we call tradition.
And underneath it is latentracism. And so Missy and I have had
a lot of. A lot ofheartbreaking encounters with people
who don't think a mom withpale skin should have a child with
beautiful brown skin. I alwaystell Missy the color of her skin

(43:33):
is because the color of myskin is because of the fall because
I don't have a enough melanin.That's why I freckle. And her skin
is redeemed because shedoesn't Freckle. She has the correct
amount of melanin. But anyway,I think the best thing we can do,
all of us, but certainlypeople who have not been oppressed

(43:56):
because of their ethnicity, isto humbly listen and learn and do
just what David did before theLord, to open our eyes and our hearts
and our hands and say, lord,see if there is any offensive way
in me and lead me in the wayeverlasting. We need the lens of

(44:18):
the Holy Spirit to see, evenin our own hearts, the places where
we have been latent racist orhave not recognized the oppression
around us. And so I have a. Alot of friends of different ethnicities.
I heard somebody the other dayand I so appreciated this saying,

(44:39):
to say you don't see color isridiculous. Good friend who's a pastor
out of Dallas, his name isEarl McClellan, he said, because
when you say you don't seecolor, what you're effectively saying
is, you don't see me. He's ablack gentleman, amazing pastor.
He and his wife, Earl andOnika McClellan at Shoreline Church

(45:01):
in Dallas. But I thought, youknow, I'm so glad to hear Earl say
that, because I didn't know ifI was being correct or not when I
said it. But from the verybeginning, when people, when I brought
Missy home from Haiti orstarted the adoption process, well
meaning white people would sayto me, well, you know, I've never
seen color. Almost as if theywere saying, I won't see Missy as

(45:24):
being less than or differentbecause she's black. And it would
always rub me the wrong waybecause I thought, goodness, you're
so missing out. If you don'tsee color, look at the beauty of
the color around us, whetherit's God's beauty in creation with
the blue of the sky, or thewhite of the snow or the red of the

(45:45):
gladiolas in my garden, howcould you not see the beauty these
made in the diversity of skincolor? In imago dei? All of us are
his image bearers. Genesis 1,26 and 27. So to say you don't see
color is almost to say I'dprefer that God didn't use any color
on the canvas of life. So Ithink, Willow, the most important

(46:09):
thing for us is to know thatScripture says we're called to be
agents of reconciliation. Andso anywhere we see that there is
any type of oppression, racismright now it is obvious that there
has been racial disparity andoppression in our country, that there's

(46:32):
massive heinous errors in thepast of our country that have been
glossed over. And so we haveto do the work long after this stops
trending, long after peoplequit talking about on social media.
We have got to do the work forequality because people matter to

(46:53):
God and people have to matterto us. And so as his beloved, we
should be the ones that arethe most passionate about equality
for all people. I read a booklast night that said, let us do our
part then with vigor,creativity, perseverance, hope and
humility before thesovereignty agenda of God. And that

(47:17):
phrase just wrecked me. Thesovereign agenda of God, obviously,
God's sovereign agenda is theredemption of all mankind, is the
redemption of value andintegrity for all mankind. That's

(47:38):
every every nation, everytongue, every creed, every man, every
woman, every child. And weshould lead in that. And so, you
know, I'm having lots ofconversations with dear friends of
mine who are smarter than me.Missy and I are. Are taking part
in some. Some peacefuldemonstrations, if you will. Very

(48:03):
peaceful. We are. We're doingwhat we can to engage the culture
around us and speaking out asgently but as firmly as we can when
we see injustice, and we'llcontinue to do that. I don't just

(48:24):
believe I'm fighting for mydaughter. I believe I'm fighting
for the gospel. This is aspiritual issue. This is just about
racism. It's about what. HowGod would have us treat each other.
And we, in many instances,have done a very poor job of recognizing
Imago DEI around us.

(48:45):
Well, thank you for sharingwhere you're at with that in the
midst of all that's going on.I really appreciate it. And I know
that our podcast can't be 45hours, as we mentioned earlier, but
I do have to ask. Ask you.You. You just came out with a book
called the Sacrament of Happy,and I'd love to just hear your heart

(49:07):
about the word happy and ourculture's desire to pursue happiness
in ways that maybe leave usreally unhappy.
Yeah, that title was a bit.Was supposed to be a bit jarring
because, you know, mostChristians grow up with the idea,
I mean, I heard this preachedmy whole life that joy is godly.
It's based on the acronymJesus others yourself, while happy

(49:31):
is based on happenstance. Andso happy is basically the superficial,
ungodly cousin to joy. And Ibelieved that my whole life. And
it wasn't until somebodyaccused me being happy that I thought,
you know, I've never done aword study in the Hebrew and the

(49:52):
Greek on unhappy. I'm going tosee if that's really true. If Happy
actually is the, you know, thenegative, ungodly, if you will, of
the emotions. And so I startedto study on happiness and I was stunned.
You probably already knowthis, but I was stunned at how often
the literal word happy is inGod's word. I mean, it is all throughout

(50:16):
God's word. In the Hebrew it'sAsher, and in the Greek it's Machairos.
And more often than not, whenthey translated the original text
of Hebrew and Greek into ourEnglish Bibles, they translated Asher
and machairos to blessed,sometimes to joy. They rarely translated

(50:37):
it happy. But happy isabsolutely as accurate. As a matter
of fact, with the machairos,it's more accurate. And so when you
find out Jesus started theSermon on the Mount with happy, happy
are those who are poor inspirit, who recognize how much they
need me. When you figure outthat that God was happy when Johnny

(50:58):
B. Baptized Jesus, when yousee in first Timothy that God describes
himself through the mouth ofPaul as a happy God, I mean, it's
just stunning. When Paul givesTim his charge, he says, your vocation
is to share everywhere thegospel, you know, the good news,

(51:19):
the yuan jelly. On the goodnews of Jesus and the happy, the
machairos God, you go,goodness gracious. I think we have
shortchanged ourselves to saywe can't be happy. Although biblical
happiness is not usually theway the world understands happiness,
it's not haha belly laugh andhappiness. It's actually better described

(51:44):
as Asher and machairos.Biblical happy as the d contentment
and fulfillment we have asthose who are loved by God. And so
our happiness is not at allbased on our circumstance. Our happiness
is based on the presence andthe promise of God. And so that's

(52:07):
where you find fulfillment andcontentment. And so. So anyway, I
kind of put this word studyinto a book and had so much fun stepping
on people's toes because, youknow, especially Christians. Christ
are real comfortable. If youtalk about joy, you start talking
about happiness as aChristian. And cookie, hush, that's
my dog barking at a lawnmower.You start talking about happiness

(52:30):
as a believer and you know,people get really upset and think
that you're basically beingheretical. And so I had a little
bit of redemptive fun being alittle bit redemptively naughty,
saying the sacrament of happypeople are like sacrament. Well,
sacrament just means anoutward expression of an inner grace.

(52:54):
And so in that loosedefinitions, happiness that comes
from God is absolutely asacrament. It's an outward expression
of the inward grace that wereceive walking Closely with Jesus,
knowing that even on our worstday, he calls us beautiful. I mean,
if you're in double Spanx,doesn't matter. You don't have to

(53:14):
hold your stomach in fromJesus. He thinks we're the bomb.
And that should make us happy.
Oh, yes, it should. Well, Iknow I can't wait to get my hands
on a copy of that. And wherecan people grab that book, Lisa?
Really? Anywhere online theysell books. We've got so few brick

(53:34):
and mortar bookstores anymore.But my first encouragement is always
to go to any Christianbookstores around you to actually
support them. If you've gotany family bookstores, any faith
bookstores, you know, mom andpop in your community, go there first.
But if you don't have accessto a Christian bookstore, then go

(53:57):
to Christianbook.com. it's onAmazon. It's on pretty much anywhere
they sell books online. And Iappreciate that. That's very gracious
of you to mention that. Prettymuch all my books are Bible studies
disguised as books. So my hopeis that women will gather together

(54:17):
in a Starbucks and. And readit and it'll become. Become a light
for them.
That's awesome. I have onequestion in closing, but I just have
to ask you. You as a womanhave certainly modeled boldly and
fiercely pursuing God's callon your life. And for the women listening,

(54:38):
we have so many women whodesire to do big, bold, amazing things,
things for God with theirlives, but they're somehow being
held back. What's yourgreatest advice to them?
Big picture, I would saystudy, study, study. Study the passages
that seem problematic withregards to women in leadership, because

(54:59):
there are some jewels to minein those passages. God is not a misogynist.
Contrary to popular belief,God is so pro his daughters, his
sons and his daughters, and sobelieve that if God has given you

(55:20):
a gift, he absolutely wantsthat expressed in the body in a way
that helps other people seehim bigger. And so do that with.
With passion and humility. Ifyou bump up against somebody who
doesn't think you have theright to be running hard with your
gift, be humble, be kind, begracious. I think sometimes we get

(55:42):
empower and enraged mixed up.And God's empowerment comes with
kindness and gentleness. Butyou run hard toward Jesus and then
find a group of men and women,but especially some women and some
older women who celebrate you.Sometimes I think we are so afraid

(56:04):
if somebody else gets blessedthat there's one little pie, and
if their slice is bigger, weget less of it, which is ludicrous.
And not at all biblicallydefensible. So find some women who
will cheer for you, who willadvocate for you, who will wave their
banners as you run hard towardJesus with the gifts you have and
run in your lane. Don't try tobe Priscilla Shire. Don't try to

(56:29):
be Chris Kane. Don't try to beBeth Moore. Be who God has created
you uniquely to be. He's givenyou some unique gifts, and those
gifts he gave you are to helpother people understand how much
he loves them. And so use yourgifts. Run as fast as you can in
your lane. And if you'll dothat, you'll actually have leftover

(56:51):
energy to cheer for the peoplerunning around you in their lanes.
So that's. That's my littlebit of big sister advice. Willa.
I love it so much, and thankyou for modeling it for us so that
we know it's possible. It'sbeen so fun to talk to you today,
Lisa, and we're so excited tohave you up to our Clyde conference

(57:12):
in spring 2021. In themeantime, how can our listeners connect
with you and your important work?
Well, if you go toLisaHarper.com. no, no, no. I lied.
I lied. LisaHarper.net Sorry,I always get confused. Dot com, I
think, wears a lot lessclothes than I do. LisaHarper.com

(57:34):
is. Is the website. And then Iknow I was like, whoa, I think I
slipped on that one. And thenonline it is. What am I online? I
don't even know that I shouldknow that. I think online, if you
just do. Lisa Harper. I thinkI'm trying to look at my profile.

(57:59):
Willow. That's terrible. Idon't even know my own online stuff.
So Lisa. Lisa D. Harper iswhat it is. Lisa D. Middle initial
D for Diane. So Lisa D. Harperis my Instagram. And so, yeah, mostly
I talk about Jesus, Missy, andriding motorcycles. So it's, you

(58:21):
know, if you grew up a littlebit Baptist, you always want an excuse
to wear black leather pants soyou'll see some motorcycle pics.
But I can't wait to be withyou next spring. I'm so excited.
I can already imagine us justgobbling giant vats of guacamole
together and talking about Jesus.
We will do it. Thank you somuch for being with us today, Lisa.

(58:45):
God bless you and all that you do.
Oh, thank you for having me, Willow.
Yes, it's been awesome. Andfor all of you listening, keep colliding
with Jesus and he will meetyou right where you're at and remind
you that you are his beloveddaughter and he is a father who chooses
you, loves you, destines you,and purposes you. We'll catch you

(59:07):
next week.
Thanks for tuning in to keepup with us. You can find us on Instagram
@ WeCollide on Facebook @WeCollideWomen, and you can also
visit our website atwecollide.net to find our blog resources,
event information, and more.One last thing, if you enjoyed this

(59:32):
episode, would you take a fewseconds and leave us a review? It
seems like such a small act,but reviews help us to keep producing
this content and help otherwomen women find it too. Thanks so
much for tuning in to today'sepisode and letting us walk with
you as you seek and collidewith Jesus.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}What is Happiness and How to Find it with Lisa Harper (Re-Aired)