November 21, 2024 • 41 mins
In this episode, Sukhi Kaur talks to Sahaj Kohli, therapist, founder of Brown Girl Therapy, and author of But What Will People Say?. They explore the unique challenges first-gen women of color face when starting and growing heart-led businesses, particularly the cultural guilt and self-doubt that often hold us back.
Topics include:
- Navigating the tension between cultural expectations and personal growth.
- Overcoming guilt about outgrowing traditional paths and family expectations.
- How to embrace risk, self-advocacy, and the entrepreneurial journey.
- Sahaj’s insights on first-gen success and what it takes to build a business on your own terms.
If you’ve ever struggled with guilt or second-guessed your path in business, this episode will offer actionable advice and meaningful reflections to help you move forward with confidence.
Resources Mentioned:
- Sahaj Kohli: Instagram @browngirltherapy | Website
- Sahaj’s book: But What Will People Say?
- Sukhi’s Free Consultation: Book Here
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:09):
Welcome
Hey, I'm Sukhi Kaur, your host and fellow
cycle breaker. I'm here to help first
generation women of color grow their
business that's been on their heart by
breaking free from limiting cultural
expectations and navigating self-doubt.
Together, we'll cultivate self-trust,
(00:30):
explore how to step into your full
potential, and create success on your
terms. Let's break those much
needed cycles and build an impactdriven
life you've been dreaming of right here
in community.
(00:51):
to the Cycle Breaker podcast. I'm so
excited to introduce our special guest,
Sage Coricoli. I've been
part of her conversation clubs during
COVID and follow her online platform.
You probably know her more as Brown Girl
Therapy, but I'll let you introduce
yourself, Sage. Hi, yes, thank you for
having me. I'm so excited to be here and
(01:12):
in conversation with you. I love talking
to people who've been a part of the
community since since the early days, so
it's nice. But I'm Sahaj Kohli. I'm the
founder of Brown Girl Therapy, the 1st
and largest mental health community for
adult children of immigrants living in
the West. I'm also a practicing
therapist. I work with individuals and
cross-cultural couples. I am an advice
(01:34):
columnist with the Washington Post. I am
an author. My book recently came out
in May 2024. It's called But What Will
People Say?And it's all about navigating
family, love, identity, culture, mental
health between cultures.
And yeah, that's a little bit about me.
Yeah, you cover so much. That's. I know
(01:54):
you briefly summarized, but that's
there's so many things in your book and
even on your platform. I I follow you on
Instagram primarily and like.
Even about identity and like breaking
barrier. So when I thought of it I was
like I have to ask Sage like if she can
be on the podcast cause it's you talk a
lot about like the experience of the
children of immigrants and like you
(02:15):
mentioned first generation and 2nd
generation. And even in your book you
talk about defining what first generation
is because I think sometimes they use
that word so loosely. But as far
as like our experience I think it is
there is this common like. Identity that
we need to like self-identifying like
journey almost that we have to go
(02:37):
through. And so the people that I
primarily work with like our listeners
are first generation woman of color who
you know have done that like traditional
path of like go to school and have a
career and maybe they want to have a
business that's related to their career.
But a lot of times growing up at least
for me, I don't know if it's same for you
(02:58):
like being a doctor and having that like.
Outward perception is so important that
like we kind of lose track of is this
something that we want to do and even
giving that space to say is this
important to me is not really
something that's natural and it actually
there's takes a lot of work to get to
that. So I think when people say like oh
(03:20):
B, is it authentic to you?I always have
trouble with that because it's
only if you stop and question if that's
it's more like is it integrity like. Is
it, does it feel like you have integrity
with your values, what you're doing?But
yeah, so I guess having said all the
things that you help and like you talk
about and you know in your practice as a
(03:41):
therapist, but also just in your
community like the online platform,
what would you say is like
you can see that something that a
limiting belief that would hold someone
back that like the listeners can relate
to and like how would you say about like
reframing that for them?Yeah. You
know, I think that you touched on a lot
(04:01):
of things. And ultimately when you
straddle more than one culture, no matter
what generation of immigrant you are,
right, whether you are an immigrant,
whether you're a child of immigrants,
whether you are a grandchild of
immigrants, if you straddle more than one
culture and essentially that comes down
to individualism versus collectivism,
you are going to experience kind of a
tension between those cultural values,
(04:23):
norms and expectations and so. A lot of
times that comes out in not knowing how
to self-advocate, because in one culture
you're taught to be assertive. You're
taught that being assertive is rewarded.
You're taught to advocate for yourself,
to protect yourself. And in another
culture, you're taught to put other
people first, to prioritize
community and family, to not rock the
(04:45):
boat in a lot of ways. And so I
think that all of these different
cultural values and norms are
internalized as what you call
self-limiting beliefs, right?Sometimes
they can come out specifically as risk
doesn't feel worth it. Sometimes it can
be scary to take risks because you feel
like if you take risks, you are risking
failure. And as anyone who
(05:06):
straddles multiple cultures as first Gen.
woman of color, failure is terrifying
because you're constantly trying to
survive and thrive under systems that in
the West that weren't necessarily made
for you in mind. But also you're
operating in families that have these
standards of expectations of what success
is supposed to look like. So I write
about this in my book, but I talk a lot
(05:27):
about how as immigrants that
that immigrant families often prioritize,
immigrant parents often prioritize 3 S's
safety, stability and security. They want
their kids to be stable, safe and secure.
And that looks like traditional
traditional jobs, traditional paths.
Not rocking the boat, not doing anything
nontraditional because it's scary and
(05:48):
risky. And so I think those of us who
come from families like that, it can feel
really scary to take any type of risk. I
think also there's a little bit of
self-sabotage, you know, subconsciously
that I see in first Gen. women of color.
So what that looks like I think from
what I've witnessed is. Feeling like
(06:09):
you're not worthy of trying something
new, feeling bad and guilty that you're
trying to access new opportunities or
resources that your parents or family
abroad don't have access to. So you
almost set your own upper limit
potential, right?So you almost set this
your own ceiling of how far you can go
because you don't feel like you're worthy
of doing more than that. You want to stay
humble. You worry about what it's going
(06:30):
to look like to other people. You worry
that you are outliving, outsmarting,
outsuccessing your own family, and that
can feel really bad to some people. So
there's almost this other side of the
coin that I've witnessed of almost just
convincing yourself that you're not
worthy of that, that that level of
success. And I think it comes down to
guilt, right?I think guilt is like an
(06:50):
umbrella that kind of causes some of
these limiting beliefs that happen in
children of immigrants or first Gen.
women of color of just feeling, feeling
guilt. I call it driver's guilt, guilt
for having access to things that that
others didn't have in your family. Right.
Yeah. And I think it can be as simple as
just having the education and not, you
(07:12):
know, being in the survival mode of like,
even when, like when I went to college
the first day, I just was like, OK, I'll
just do science. And there was no really
room that I gave myself of like, oh, I
really like psychology and I minored in
it, but I just had to fill out a form and
say I double major. But I didn't go and
fill that out because it was very much of
like, oh, could you just do something
(07:33):
because you like it instead of. You know,
it's supposed to be like you go and you
get this done. It's and I girl, I'm
born and raised here. So it's like very
much of like, oh, finding
yourself and what you like. It's like an
American thing versus like that's what
you actually have the option of doing.
Yeah. And I also think, you know, to add
(07:54):
another layer to that, if you're not good
at what's expected of you, that will make
you feel really bad about yourself. So I
was pre-med for a long time and I I
failed. I didn't do well in those classes
and I remember. Specifically
thinking and feeling that it was a me
problem instead of knowing that there
were other routes, that there were other
strengths that I had, that there were
other ways that I was smart or could be
(08:15):
successful. I thought, I thought that I
was a moral failure because I couldn't
fit into this box that was expected of
me, right. Yeah. And I loved that in your
book. You were like, it took me, I think
you mentioned like 10 or 12 years to
finish your degree. And I think that I
really resonated with that because you
were like, you know, I would just say,
oh, I'm doing well. And like in my
science classes, I was struggling. I have
(08:37):
a chemistry degree and I I don't even
know how I struggled through it because
it was just like you just move through
the corporate ladder and you just, it's
almost like the priority is to
keep yourself perception and not have
people question you versus be like, oh,
this is not what I want to
do and then like try to start
(08:58):
over. So I think even for me, like I have
a corporate career and I'm doing well and
now I'm rocking the boat of like, oh, I
just want to do this thing called a life
coach where people are like, what does
that even mean?And why would you get put
yourself on that unstable position to
like leaving the stability of a paycheck,
which it's really just your thoughts
(09:18):
about it, right?Could it could be even
more stable and more flexible for your
life. So I guess like, so say for
example like. You know how we talk about
the stability is so important and that's
like what's rooted in us. And then when
you're going against these traditional
like career paths, especially when you go
into entrepreneurship, there is just that
instability and like you have to be
(09:40):
flexible, at least in the beginning to
you just don't know what's going to
happen. And it's not for better or for
worse, like it could just be either way.
So is there something that that like, you
know, a tool or some some type of thought
process that you recommend?someone that
wants to kind of break that barrier
because I see it a lot in the people that
(10:01):
I coach. It's like, oh, my friends and
family see me in this way. And it's like,
I'm so stable and I'm an expert. And now
I would be starting over, especially when
it's things like they want to go from
being like a doctor to like a yoga
teacher or like something like from
finance to like one of my clients wanted
to be a spiritual coach and it's very
(10:21):
like different. Venues and how would
you like, yeah, if there's anything that
you recommend that you've seen in your
practice or yeah, I mean it's it's
it's very complicated, right. I I wish
there was just one thing I could tell
people to do and then it was few answers
and it would be easier. But this is
essentially the work I do with my
clients. I practice as a narrative
therapist, which means I help my clients
(10:43):
kind of identify what those stories are
that they. Tell themselves about
themselves. And the stories that we learn
come from our elders, our caregivers, our
parents, the family that we grew up
in, the cultural system that we
grew up in, the cultural system that we
now live in, the dominant society,
experiences that we've had of shame or
(11:04):
guilt or pride. All of these things kind
of create stories that we now have
learned to be true. And the truth about
who we are, right?I am someone who is
stable. I'm an expert in this field. I
can no longer change what I'm doing
because I've made it so far in this
field. Therefore I have to stay in this
field. But where does that story actually
come from, right?What are the cultural
narratives or the socio-cultural
(11:25):
narratives as a woman especially, right?
There's in all cultures, these kinds of
narratives were fed about timeline and
when you're supposed to do certain things
and how you're supposed to prioritize
getting married or having kids, and that
can be compounded. Depending on the
culture you talk about. But as a South
Asian woman, that was the narrative I was
fed was, you know, be good at school, you
know, be successful in that way. But
(11:47):
ultimately you're going to get married,
you're going to have kids, and that
should be your priority. And so a
lot of the work is really just
interrogating where those stories come
from and how much you've internalized
them to be truth. Because not everything
we tell ourselves about ourselves is
truth. We just are using it being that
way. Even for me, right?I've lived
multiple different lives. I have worked
(12:09):
in multiple different jobs, whether they
were part-time jobs as a waitress, a
field hockey coach, or I was a lot of
volunteer opportunities to figure out
fields I wanted to be in. I was pre-med
before I failed out of school. I got my
associate's degree. I worked in
journalism for seven years, and then I
decided to go back to school to be a
therapist and through all of this. I've
created my own business of being a mental
(12:30):
health educator, serving a community I'm
really passionate about. And when I say
it like that, it's really easy to be
like, oh damn, you're really successful.
You like, figured it all out. But the
process was messy and hard and
painful and difficult and. Really,
what it comes down to, we can interrogate
these stories. We can build up our
self-confidence. We can work on our
(12:50):
self-esteem. We can figure out, you know,
the things that we want to do, the things
that we value. But ultimately,
ultimately, even after you do all of
those things, there's one thing that you
have to do that no one else can do for
you, and that is bet on yourself. You are
the only person who can bet on yourself.
And that's really what it came down to
for me. I had moments where no one
believed in what I was doing. No one
(13:10):
understood it. My parents were confused,
scared. Worried. There were so many
things, but I ultimately bet on myself
and that, you know, there are practical
ways to do that. I saved up money. I made
sure that I was practically able to
survive in a capitalist world and and
make sure that I was able to set myself
up to be able to spend time doing things
that were important to me. I worked
(13:32):
full-time while I started my my, you
know, brown girl therapy. I was in school
full-time. Eventually it got to a point
where I said, OK, I can't work full-time
and be in school and do this, so I'm
going to leave my full-time job and. I
remember my dad being like, OK, well,
what are you going to do next?You have to
make money. You have to do something. And
I, you know, was in a financial place
where I had some money saved. I was in a
(13:52):
partnership where my husband was really
supportive. And I said, you know what?I'm
going to just bet on myself for a little
bit. If it doesn't work out after X
amount of time, I will find a job. I will
figure it out. I will change. Reevaluate.
Yeah. But you have to bet on yourself
because no one else is going to do that
for you. And. It's OK if when you bet on
yourself, it's still hard or it's
confusing or you change path or you
(14:14):
decide you don't want to do it anymore.
But you really only can know when you
do it and when you try, right?Yeah.
And I think like I love that you said
like the practical way is like
just ensuring that you're financially
stable because I think sometimes it's
like and it can be like for now for the
timeline you give yourself cause
sometimes when I coach my clients, it's
(14:35):
like. Oh, like, am I going to be able to
live off this for five years?And you can
just be successful in your business in a
year. Like you can make the money back
depending on what you're opening and what
you're buying and doing and all that
stuff. But sometimes it's as simple as
needing like Zoom and a social media
account, which is, which is not very
expensive and the investment is not high.
(14:56):
But in our minds it may look like a lot
more. And when somebody says, oh, it's
unstable, especially like family members
and community members. Like, it doesn't
have to be. I mean, I guess like, do you
think it's also important not to have
feel like you have to answer those
questions or like, you know, I
guess it is part of the narrative of like
(15:17):
giving too much power into questions
because sometimes I'll have to remind
myself and even my constant being like,
OK, the questions you get doesn't need to
be like a stop. Like it doesn't. It's not
as much of A warning. It may just be
something. That from that person's
perspective, they're just trying to look
out for you or they have a reason, but it
doesn't have to be taken that seriously
(15:38):
and you don't have to really give in to
those like, yeah. Yeah. And I think it's
important to remember that when you get
advice or questions or pushback from
people, you really want to ask yourself,
who's giving you this advice or who's
pushing back?Are these people who
understand what you're trying to do?Do
they, are they living out lifestyles and
values that are important to you?Are
(15:59):
they, you know, people whose
advice and words you respect?And it can
be really hard because oftentimes it ends
up being our parents or our families and
we have to like then sift through and
parse. You know, are they coming from a
place of fear?Are they coming of a place
because they believe in what I'm doing?
Are they coming from a place because they
understand what I'm doing?And sometimes
we just have to sit in that, you know,
(16:20):
messy middle and say, OK, they don't
really get it. I understand that they're
scared. They're coming from a place of
fear. How can I maybe address that fear
to, like, get them more on board?But
also, do they need to get on board for me
to bet on myself?And that's where
practicality comes in, right?I work with
people who might say, oh, I live at home
and my parents are not going to support
me anymore if I quit. My job. OK, well,
(16:42):
then there are practical things that
might need to happen. You might need to
figure out if there's a way for you to
start this thing on your own without them
knowing. You might want to prioritize
moving out or building up financial
security so you can be financially
independent before you do this. I mean,
there's a level of privilege there, but,
you know, sometimes we have to go back to
the basics before we can get to a place
and say I can bet on myself now, right?I
(17:05):
would be able to get physical and
emotional distance from my family, move
out of the house. Build a level of
financial independence where then I said
I can do this for myself because really I
am risking me, what I'm doing, what I'm
working on, what I have versus risking,
you know, what they've given me or
there's no strings attached like them
being supportive in this. And I think we
have to kind of discern between some of
(17:27):
those questions and and where they're
coming from. Yeah, that's so important.
And I know it's a case by case basis, but
I think just the betting on yourself and.
Taking some practical steps, I think that
kind of gives people some more relief
rather than be like, oh, just believe in
yourself and you'll do it. And it's just
thought process. But you do have to take
action that aligns with what you want to
(17:48):
do. Otherwise you're just never going to
know. And it's just going to be this
thing that you always have in your mind.
Yeah. And I think you want to be, you
want to be honest with yourself about why
you're doing what you do, right?Purpose,
mission, being those things matter a lot.
And I think those can be the fuel. When
you don't have fuel, it's just reminding
(18:08):
yourself. I'm doing this because I am
very passionate about it or I really
believe in. This thing that I'm doing, if
you are doing it just to do it and there
isn't really meaning or purpose or
passion behind it, it's going to be very
hard to continue to bet on yourself or
sustain it. I'm six years in
to Brown Girl Therapy, right?It was very
difficult. There were times where I took
six month breaks from being online
(18:28):
because I just couldn't. I had other
things going on in my life, you know,
building something doesn't happen
overnight. And it requires a level of,
like, sustainable passion and purpose
where you can, like, see yourself through
some of those darker days to get to the
other side. And ultimately,
trying doesn't mean like betting on
(18:48):
yourself doesn't necessarily mean you're
gonna get to a place where you are
incredibly successful. Successful is
different to everyone. It might
mind-based freedom. It might mean making
more money. It might mean just leaving a
job that you're really unhappy in. It
might mean being able to, like. Art time,
do something that you like and then
working a different job the other hours
of your day. It looks different for
(19:09):
everyone and I think that's something
that people have to get clear on. I think
setting those. You know, quarterly goals,
those micro goals every quarter, being
really honest with yourself about what it
is that you, you know, are trying to go
like reaching for and then building those
goals as you go is how you grow. And I
didn't, you know, I didn't start Brown
Girl Therapy saying, OK, this is going to
(19:30):
be a business, this is going to make me
money. This is going to be, you know,
where I have a whole brand that is
recognized and a book that comes because
of it. Like I didn't, I didn't build it
with any of those in mind. I mean, if six
year old, six years ago me saw this, I
know that she would be astounded by what
I've done. But I went into it being like,
I feel really passionate about this thing
that I want to build and create. I did a
(19:53):
lot of market research. It didn't exist
at that time. So I was like, I'm, I'm
gonna just see what happens. And slowly
it kept changing shape. It kept changing
its purpose. It kept changing like the
meaning for me. And it just has continued
to build into what it is today. But.
It itThis isn't what I thought it was
gonna be. I thought this was just gonna
always be a side project I just loved.
(20:14):
Oh, yeah. I thank you for sharing that.
Because I think sometimes when we're
thinking of our business and our goal,
especially when you're starting off, a
lot of times, at least in my experience,
this is one of the first experiences
these women have had to, like, do
something that's heart-led just because
they wanna do it. And that's not because
it's gonna look good outwardly or, you
(20:35):
know, your parents gonna be more, but
they're probably gonna be more confused
than anything else. So I think like
it's so I really like that you share
that, you know, it changes and
evolves and it's not that you need like
six years ago you wouldn't have
recognized that this is what it would be.
So it's almost like being OK with
not knowing and like just starting and
(20:57):
knowing that it's it's important to
you. And even if it's the first time
you're doing something just for you, it's
OK. But it doesn't mean that you have to
know exactly what it needs to look like.
Like giving that flexibility. Yeah, I
mean that's that's the biggest thing I
think that we struggle with as first Gen.
women of color is that our parents
(21:17):
and our families are gonna push back
because they can't see what the end
result is. And I think to some degree we
can't see what the end result is. So then
we get really confused and then we're
like, Oh no, maybe I shouldn't be doing
this cause I don't actually know what
it's supposed to be instead of saying I'm
gonna actually just take it month by
month, day by day. And I can change my
mind at any point. This can change
course. This can be turned into something
(21:38):
different. I can stop at any time. And I
think that that's the freedom and
liberation that we want to give ourselves
is knowing that because of the privilege
we have, you know, having the courage to
start something that's different,
unfamiliar and not on the traditional
path also means giving yourself the
freedom to decide when you want to change
course or stop also. So yeah.
(21:59):
Using it, you're not necessarily putting
yourself into like another box and
saying, OK, now I have to, this has to be
something. I have to make it work. It has
to, you know, turn into something.
Instead, I think that's where the heart
and the purpose and the meaning and the
passion kind of lead it. You
know, we it's hard to conceptualize
something that's never been done and it's
(22:21):
hard to conceptualize something that
you've never done. And so you need to
give yourself grace to figure it out as
you go, right?Yeah, because I think.
You know when we start a job or even a
degree, a lot of times like I've done it,
it was like I picked this major, I'm just
gonna, I'm gonna finish it because I I
selected it and then I'm gonna graduate
early cause I don't wanna do it anymore
and it might look better. So it's just
(22:41):
very much like like it's just a ripple
effect. But I think if it is the
business and you give your it's I guess
like would you say this could even be
part of the base business plan of course
like. You first need to know that you're
gonna bet on yourself. Like this is like
other people may not be there as you may
want and maybe it'll come along, but just
(23:01):
that is one of the things that you just
have to accept that as first Gen. if
you're especially if you're doing
something different from the traditional
roles. And then I guess even planning for
like not giving yourself the out, like
giving yourself the permission, planning
for like not knowing how it could be and
then. Just that flexibility of changing
(23:21):
and that there isn't anything wrong with
not knowing like that's actually what
it's supposed to be. Cause I think in
school and like doing bad is like getting
a bad grade is bad. But I think in
business it's actually really helpful
when things don't work out cause then
you're like maybe my messaging could be
different or actually maybe you're
learning something. Yeah, your platform
may be it may be simple as small things,
(23:43):
but you're learning along the way rather
than I think. Traditionally it's like OK
you fail that's like big no
let's make it a secret and like don't
share with anyone. So yeah definitely.
And I think there's I don't know what
it's called but there's like a fallacy
and and productivity you know work
field around like planning and how
(24:05):
it's really easy to like it's
really easy to like overestimate how
quickly or under I forget
it's really easy to like plan for
something and then not give yourself. The
flexibility during that planning. So
instead there's like a rigidity that says
like, OK, in one month I'm gonna do this,
in two months I'm gonna do this and three
weeks I'm gonna do this. But instead when
(24:25):
you plan for that, also give buffer time
in those. So if you think it's gonna take
two weeks to get 100 followers, give
yourself a month, right?Like always add
to whatever it is you think, whatever you
think the timeline needs to be, because
that's also gonna give you grace to like.
Make mistakes, slow down, figure it out,
change your mind, change course, whatever
(24:47):
it is. And I think that that's something
I had to learn the hard way, which was,
you know, Brown Girl Therapy didn't
become like more of a business until two
years in. And then when I was figuring
out what that meant, you know, it's
continued to change course and sometimes
that has looked like. Making a certain
amount of money to invest it into
mentorships or coaching or whatever else
to get the support I need. Sometimes it's
(25:09):
looked like taking a step back and just
being like, I need time away to figure
out what this is even gonna look like.
Sometimes bringing in the community to
say, hey, there are 10 people who've been
a part of this since day one. Let me just
ask them, what do they think?Well, you
know, let me do like a mini focus group
myself. And ask the people who care about
my work what they think it should be.
(25:29):
And it's also, it goes back to what I
said before. It's making sure that you
have people around you whose opinion and
advice you trust. So instead of
focusing on the pushback and the fear and
the advice you're getting from people
whose values maybe are different from
yours, where can you build up a level of
mentorship, community support, right?
There's many. Podcasts like this. There's
(25:49):
many business women in business events,
probably in your city or in your town.
There's lots of online networking events.
So like, where can you also build up
those relationships so you feel supported
as you figure it out, right?Yeah, it's
like expanding the community rather than
it just being like this is a community I
come from. It has to be friends or family
(26:09):
right now. It could just be because I
think it was. 2020, I think you had your
conversation club. I don't even know if
that's what you called it, but it was
basically it is, right. So it was just
nice to be like, oh, as a South Asian,
you can talk about these things openly.
And like, these are topics that
I don't know, like, I don't know if all
(26:30):
my friends are willing to go in and
self-reflect and talk about and openly
and not give advice to each other, but
hold a space. I don't know if that's
something that. It would be, I think it's
very difficult if you're in the place of
like, I wanna do a business and I wanna
grow in this way. It's much, much harder
to change the group that you're in
(26:52):
rather than find people that are already
doing it. And then you can see what you
can take and give. 'Cause I think that's
one of the stressors of like,
even for example, that person in finance
is like, oh, my friends don't value this.
And it's like, no, there's definitely
communities. And I think we live in a
place where around the globe, we can
connect with people so easily compared to
(27:13):
like when I was in high school and
college, I guess it wasn't as easy. So,
yeah. YeahYeah
Oh, awesome. And I know that you have
your online community, like I
know you have Brown Girl Therapy, that's
like your handle on Instagram, but you
also have a group and it's culturally
enough, is that right?So I have two. So I
(27:34):
have a newsletter called Culturally
Enough and that is on Substack and people
can join that for free or paid. Paid gets
like more deep dives into certain
content, but also community
clubs and conversations with other people
in the community and a couple other perks
like guided monthly reflections and
meditations. Book club is coming next
next year. So lots of like fun things
(27:56):
there to just be in community with other
like-minded bicultural or multicultural
people. Every month I explore a new
theme. So right now in November we're.
Exploring what it means to grow up in a
chaotic family. December, we're exploring
what it means. What do you owe your
parents and like, what does that mean and
how does that impact you?And then I have
a community group program which is called
Boldly Bicultural, which is a four month
(28:18):
community program that I run. I'm
actually in the first. Installment of it.
So, you know, I've got my little Guinea
pigs. They've been really amazing. They
are all like really excited about it.
It's four months, 22 hour calls a month,
plus workbooks and, you know, a private
chat that's ongoing between sessions. And
that has been more of a deep dive into
what I talk about in the book. So it's
(28:39):
divided into four different themes. Every
month we talk about something new, family
relationships, bicultural identity and
emotion and Wellness. And so. That's been
really fun. So that's again going back to
like what does it mean to grow your
business?I I
struggle to like make money off of my
business for a long time I was doing.
(29:00):
Other things besides community, like
I always wanted to retain accessibility
for the community. So I would make my
money on corporate speaking gigs or, you
know, consulting or other things that I
would do as a mental health educator. I'm
a practicing therapist. I make money that
way. I'm a writer. I make money that way.
But I always struggle to understand what
it meant to charge the community that I
(29:20):
want to serve. And I think that's
something a lot of first-gen women of
color struggle with because. You don't
want to, you want to retain
accessibility, but you also need to make
money and you also value reciprocity.
So I started slow, right?The the
newsletter was the 1st way I was like, or
I think I had a Patreon first like many
years ago and that was like $5 a month.
If you want it, if you value my work and
(29:41):
you want to support, like here's how you
can do it. And then eventually I started
a newsletter community and I was like,
OK, $10 a month and I, you know, I always
over deliver. It's something I love about
myself. So I'm like. I'm going to make
sure it's always worth it to people. And
then I've done some community workshops
here and there, one-offs. But now like
the the community program, it's the first
bigger ticket item I've ever sold to the
(30:02):
community. And just seeing the reception
of it and it sold out and there was a
wait list. And and you know, I think for
me there's also something to be said
about building your expertise around the
thing you want to do, trying a lot of
things, doing things maybe more
accessibly and at low cost to figure it
out and then. Building that
community to then charge those bigger
(30:23):
ticket items. People do it differently. I
know people who do it the other way, who
say I never want to start low because I
value my work. And that's fine too. I
think this is like what you don't know.
You can find people who know. And that's
what I've had to lean into. I've been
building Grown Girl Therapy by myself for
five years, and then just about 10 months
ago, I decided to hire a social media
manager, hire an online business manager.
(30:44):
And by investing now five years in, six
years in into my business with people who
can do things that I don't know how to do
or take too much time for me and aren't
enjoyable for me has let me then grow the
things I love doing, which is being with
the community, building these, you know,
educational like programs. And I think
that is also key is like do the things.
(31:05):
As an entrepreneur, you are doing
everything all the time. You are every
single goal of your business. And I know
I get that, but you can also.
Eventually get to a place where you can
you can outsource what you don't enjoy.
And that that's a slow process. But just
remind yourself that you don't have to do
everything all the time forever. Forever.
Yeah. YeahYeah
(31:27):
Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. I think
even like, remember, because I think
that's something that my clients struggle
with as well of like, oh, this is
something that's heart lit I'm doing
because it's important. And now I'm
leaving. Maybe I'm leaving my job or the
traditional role that has been so
financially stable. And how do I go about
doing that?And like, it is about being
creative with how do you want to start?
(31:48):
And it doesn't have to be like a stop in
the air with your job and then you go. It
could be a slow process, like you said.
And how are you creative with sharing
what value you provide?Like it could be.
I know even on your Instagram post, like
they're so valuable. Like a lot of them
I'll see, I'll share even just the post
like it's for free cause it's on social
media, but it's so valuable even in that
(32:11):
and like even creating a podcast which
is, well, I guess some of them are
charged, but you can just have free
podcasts and have guests that you have
value that you share. So there's a lot of
different ways of doing that. But I think
it is like you said, just being
open-minded of like. There's
flexibility. It doesn't have to be so
rigid. You don't. You can decide to stop.
(32:31):
You can decide to take a break, like you
said. And sometimes, like you know how
you said, like you hired a coach or you
hired or just, you know, working on
yourself. You took a break for a few
months or a year. Like it's actually so
productive toward your business, even if
it looks like you're not creating
that consistent, cause I think sometimes
consistency kind of. Gives that like
(32:54):
ripple effect of like, oh, now I'm just
not like as focused on my business and
I'm not committed and it doesn't have to
necessarily be that way. Yeah,
exactly. And it's it's a normal thing to
struggle with, especially in social media
where it's just like everyone is on all
the time and you're, you know, it's like,
yeah, then you know how many. Yeah. And
then there's rules of the algorithm
changing and then how many times you
(33:14):
post, I'm going to post when I can and
like it's going to be valuable, but it's
not going to be like. You're going to get
it at 1:00 PM on Monday or like some,
yeah, sometimes scheduled, but like it
doesn't have to be all that. Yeah,
no, I mean, I literally took
6 to 8 months off here and there in the
beginning of posting, but that I was
still doing other things. I was gaining
(33:35):
expertise, I was reading books, I was
learning, I was meeting people, I was
doing networking events, I was starting
to do corporate speaking gigs. So the
community might not have. You know, if
you were to follow my Instagram and only
my Instagram, you might have been like,
oh, she kind of disappeared. But also no
one noticed, like 6 months. No one cares.
Like no one noticed. No one knew. And the
minute I came back, no one was like, oh,
you've been gone. It was like, OK, great,
(33:57):
like let's let's let's get back on the
momentum. So sometimes that pressure is
just pressure we put on ourselves as
well. I totally agree. Cause there was
this one post that was like, oh, do you
remember the last post you read?And
like I can't remember the last thing
cause there's so many things. So then
they're like OK, don't put so much
pressure on what you create then as a
post. And I think a lot of people
struggle to be like how do I get started?
(34:18):
What do I say?And it's like people are
gonna be hyper focused and. Our focus is
so like our attention spans are so low
now because there's so much going on that
you don't need that pressure on every
single post. So it kind of and I actually
wanted to ask you like when you started
using social media as a platform, you
mentioned that like I think it was like a
(34:39):
professor or a colleague that had
like feedback and pushback of like you
shouldn't be as a therapist on this
platform. So how did you like navigate
that cause I I think. We just get so much
feedback and and it goes back to being
careful with who you take. Yeah, it's
it's definitely. So I had a professor in
grad school tell me that I should be a
(35:01):
blank slate. And basically having come
from journalism where you can already
find personal essays I've written, I've
always had like a bigger social media
presence because I worked in journalism.
So I had a, you know, I had a Twitter
account. I had all of these things. And
for him to tell me this, he first of all
was an older white male professor. So
already not understanding or inclusive of
cultural differences there, of building
(35:23):
community and the importance of community
and how underrepresented my own community
is in the mental health world. So I
remember feeling really bad and I
remember second-guessing this is probably
not the field for me. I made a mistake
coming to grad school. I should leave.
And instead, what I did was I found
mentors. So I went to the two professors
of color in my program who I
(35:44):
knew would understand and went to them
and said, here's what happened to me. I
feel bad. I'm worried I'm in the wrong
field. And they were able to give me the
advice and feedback, you know, rooted in
ethics and integrity that I needed, which
was what you're doing is not wrong. Here
are ways you can do it with integrity.
Here's how you can do it ethically. You
can still be a therapist.
(36:07):
And I think that that kind of mentorship
is really important. Yeah. YeahAnd
also like knowing that you have, you
have to look for it sometimes it's not
easily like available. Well, I feel like
it can be if you if you allow yourself to
look in the right places and keep even as
I think even finding a therapist, that's
something that, you know, somebody that's
(36:28):
culturally informed, like not necessarily
someone the same culture as you as the
most benefit, but. And I think kind of
shopping around like as you said, like
even mentors or even taking breaks like
that's productive and like that's helpful
still. I don't like using the word
productive cause I think it's like
especially as first January, just like
oh, everything like rest is bad and all
that. But it's still helpful to your
(36:49):
business and still growing it. Like if
you're growing, that's still like your
value and you're still able to like share
with others. So yeah, yeah, I agree. And
the last thing I'll say, you know, cause
I hadn't mentioned it yet was like.
Getting on yourself also just means
starting whatever it is you want to start
without waiting for things to feel
perfect. So like when I started Brown
(37:10):
Girl Therapy, I mean, if you look at the
Brown Girl Therapy logo, I don't have a
logo. I just created one in Canva that
just says Brown Girl Therapy. I didn't
have a website for four years. I honestly
didn't get a website until last year,
which is wild because I've been, you
know, getting requests and DMS and I
had my e-mail on my profile, but I didn't
have a website that like told people what
I did or what services I have.
(37:33):
And for me, I I'm not saying wait four
years to get a website, but don't say I
need to have a website. I need to know my
color scheme. I need to know my branded
logo. I need to know all these things
before I can start. No, that's just you
like procrastinating and tricking
yourself into not doing the thing that
you want to do. And so I think sometimes
taking this first step is just taking the
(37:54):
first step. Yeah. Thank you for sharing
that. Cause I think there is a lot of
like noise of shoulds in business of like
it should be like. You have a big mailing
list and you have a freebie and like it
could just be like how you find clients
and that's enough because I I think I
even struggled with that in the beginning
of like I used to get clients of
(38:14):
referrals and it was through networking
events but not so much through social
media and a website. So it was almost
like I was almost dismissing of how I'm
how I'm being successful, but it could
just be starting and like. Yeah.
Sharing what you have to share. So yeah,
it could be simple is what I mean. Like
the betting on yourself sounds like, oh,
(38:34):
it has to be this huge commitment because
it could be like a simple first step of
just create a social media account. And I
think there's a lot of like mindset work
that goes into just being like no one's,
no one's going to remember exactly, but
it could spark some interest and then
come back. But it's not like a one time
thing. It's a yeah, it's
a process. Yeah, exactly.
(38:57):
Thank you. This has been so helpful. So
like, I want to make sure before we log
off, like how can people find you?
What's new?Like anything that you want to
share?Cause I think all the things that
you're doing is is so valuable. And I
remember being in your conversation clubs
and I was like, oh, this is such a life
changer. So like, I want to make sure
people can like find you. Thank you.
Yeah. So the easiest way is just through
(39:18):
Instagram on at Brown Girl Therapy.
There's a website there like there's like
my link tree there where you can find a
bunch of other stuff. My book. So
you know, I I again, I'm very intentional
about having different offerings at
different price points. So you know,
LinkedIn, TikTok, Instagram is where
you'll find a lot of valuable content for
free. I have my newsletter, which is part
free, part paid depending on you know
(39:40):
what you have access to, which we go into
deeper dives into like a smaller
community. It's still big and it's still
growing, but a smaller community where we
talk about specific. Cultural issues when
it comes to mental health. And then I
have my Washington Post advice column,
which is free if you have a Washington
Post subscription. If not, there are
sometimes workarounds. I'll just say that
(40:03):
I post a lot of them anyways on
Instagram. Yeah, that's what I was just
going to say that you post them anyway.
So yeah, my book, which is, you know, I
think $30 if you can get it on sale, I'm
sure, during the holidays. It's cheaper
on audiobook, cheaper on e-book. And so
that has full of information,
reflections, journal questions, all of
(40:23):
the things that I think would be really
helpful to people. And then I have other
offerings. I have my Boldy Bicultural
Community program, which is on wait list
right now. But you can learn about and I
do speaking gigs and you can learn about
literally all of it on my website, which
is just sahedgecorecolee.com.
And then I am in the process of starting
my own podcast soon. So there's lots
(40:45):
of that. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much
for being on and sharing your, like
your experience and tips and how people
can just like get started and like
just grow and like give that flexibility
and that like, you know,
space for themselves to just do the
things that they want to do, especially
when it comes to starting business. So
(41:07):
thank you so much. Yeah, of course. Thank
you so much for this great conversation.
Yeah, of course. All right.
Hey, if today's episode resonated with
you and you're ready to break free from
the cycles holding you back in your
business, it's time to book a
consultation with me. By the end of the
call, you'll know what's been holding you
back and you'll have a clear plan for
(41:28):
growing the business that's been on your
heart. So go ahead and head to the link
in the show notes to book your free call.
Welcome
Hey, I'm Sukhi Kaur, your host and fellow
cycle breaker. I'm here to help first
generation women of color grow their
business that's been on their heart by
breaking free from limiting cultural
expectations and navigating self-doubt.
Together, we'll cultivate self-trust,
(00:30):
explore how to step into your full
potential, and create success on your
terms. Let's break those much
needed cycles and build an impactdriven
life you've been dreaming of right here
in community.
(00:51):
to the Cycle Breaker podcast. I'm so
excited to introduce our special guest,
Sage Coricoli. I've been
part of her conversation clubs during
COVID and follow her online platform.
You probably know her more as Brown Girl
Therapy, but I'll let you introduce
yourself, Sage. Hi, yes, thank you for
having me. I'm so excited to be here and
(01:12):
in conversation with you. I love talking
to people who've been a part of the
community since since the early days, so
it's nice. But I'm Sahaj Kohli. I'm the
founder of Brown Girl Therapy, the 1st
and largest mental health community for
adult children of immigrants living in
the West. I'm also a practicing
therapist. I work with individuals and
cross-cultural couples. I am an advice
(01:34):
columnist with the Washington Post. I am
an author. My book recently came out
in May 2024. It's called But What Will
People Say?And it's all about navigating
family, love, identity, culture, mental
health between cultures.
And yeah, that's a little bit about me.
Yeah, you cover so much. That's. I know
(01:54):
you briefly summarized, but that's
there's so many things in your book and
even on your platform. I I follow you on
Instagram primarily and like.
Even about identity and like breaking
barrier. So when I thought of it I was
like I have to ask Sage like if she can
be on the podcast cause it's you talk a
lot about like the experience of the
children of immigrants and like you
(02:15):
mentioned first generation and 2nd
generation. And even in your book you
talk about defining what first generation
is because I think sometimes they use
that word so loosely. But as far
as like our experience I think it is
there is this common like. Identity that
we need to like self-identifying like
journey almost that we have to go
(02:37):
through. And so the people that I
primarily work with like our listeners
are first generation woman of color who
you know have done that like traditional
path of like go to school and have a
career and maybe they want to have a
business that's related to their career.
But a lot of times growing up at least
for me, I don't know if it's same for you
(02:58):
like being a doctor and having that like.
Outward perception is so important that
like we kind of lose track of is this
something that we want to do and even
giving that space to say is this
important to me is not really
something that's natural and it actually
there's takes a lot of work to get to
that. So I think when people say like oh
(03:20):
B, is it authentic to you?I always have
trouble with that because it's
only if you stop and question if that's
it's more like is it integrity like. Is
it, does it feel like you have integrity
with your values, what you're doing?But
yeah, so I guess having said all the
things that you help and like you talk
about and you know in your practice as a
(03:41):
therapist, but also just in your
community like the online platform,
what would you say is like
you can see that something that a
limiting belief that would hold someone
back that like the listeners can relate
to and like how would you say about like
reframing that for them?Yeah. You
know, I think that you touched on a lot
(04:01):
of things. And ultimately when you
straddle more than one culture, no matter
what generation of immigrant you are,
right, whether you are an immigrant,
whether you're a child of immigrants,
whether you are a grandchild of
immigrants, if you straddle more than one
culture and essentially that comes down
to individualism versus collectivism,
you are going to experience kind of a
tension between those cultural values,
(04:23):
norms and expectations and so. A lot of
times that comes out in not knowing how
to self-advocate, because in one culture
you're taught to be assertive. You're
taught that being assertive is rewarded.
You're taught to advocate for yourself,
to protect yourself. And in another
culture, you're taught to put other
people first, to prioritize
community and family, to not rock the
(04:45):
boat in a lot of ways. And so I
think that all of these different
cultural values and norms are
internalized as what you call
self-limiting beliefs, right?Sometimes
they can come out specifically as risk
doesn't feel worth it. Sometimes it can
be scary to take risks because you feel
like if you take risks, you are risking
failure. And as anyone who
(05:06):
straddles multiple cultures as first Gen.
woman of color, failure is terrifying
because you're constantly trying to
survive and thrive under systems that in
the West that weren't necessarily made
for you in mind. But also you're
operating in families that have these
standards of expectations of what success
is supposed to look like. So I write
about this in my book, but I talk a lot
(05:27):
about how as immigrants that
that immigrant families often prioritize,
immigrant parents often prioritize 3 S's
safety, stability and security. They want
their kids to be stable, safe and secure.
And that looks like traditional
traditional jobs, traditional paths.
Not rocking the boat, not doing anything
nontraditional because it's scary and
(05:48):
risky. And so I think those of us who
come from families like that, it can feel
really scary to take any type of risk. I
think also there's a little bit of
self-sabotage, you know, subconsciously
that I see in first Gen. women of color.
So what that looks like I think from
what I've witnessed is. Feeling like
(06:09):
you're not worthy of trying something
new, feeling bad and guilty that you're
trying to access new opportunities or
resources that your parents or family
abroad don't have access to. So you
almost set your own upper limit
potential, right?So you almost set this
your own ceiling of how far you can go
because you don't feel like you're worthy
of doing more than that. You want to stay
humble. You worry about what it's going
(06:30):
to look like to other people. You worry
that you are outliving, outsmarting,
outsuccessing your own family, and that
can feel really bad to some people. So
there's almost this other side of the
coin that I've witnessed of almost just
convincing yourself that you're not
worthy of that, that that level of
success. And I think it comes down to
guilt, right?I think guilt is like an
(06:50):
umbrella that kind of causes some of
these limiting beliefs that happen in
children of immigrants or first Gen.
women of color of just feeling, feeling
guilt. I call it driver's guilt, guilt
for having access to things that that
others didn't have in your family. Right.
Yeah. And I think it can be as simple as
just having the education and not, you
(07:12):
know, being in the survival mode of like,
even when, like when I went to college
the first day, I just was like, OK, I'll
just do science. And there was no really
room that I gave myself of like, oh, I
really like psychology and I minored in
it, but I just had to fill out a form and
say I double major. But I didn't go and
fill that out because it was very much of
like, oh, could you just do something
(07:33):
because you like it instead of. You know,
it's supposed to be like you go and you
get this done. It's and I girl, I'm
born and raised here. So it's like very
much of like, oh, finding
yourself and what you like. It's like an
American thing versus like that's what
you actually have the option of doing.
Yeah. And I also think, you know, to add
(07:54):
another layer to that, if you're not good
at what's expected of you, that will make
you feel really bad about yourself. So I
was pre-med for a long time and I I
failed. I didn't do well in those classes
and I remember. Specifically
thinking and feeling that it was a me
problem instead of knowing that there
were other routes, that there were other
strengths that I had, that there were
other ways that I was smart or could be
(08:15):
successful. I thought, I thought that I
was a moral failure because I couldn't
fit into this box that was expected of
me, right. Yeah. And I loved that in your
book. You were like, it took me, I think
you mentioned like 10 or 12 years to
finish your degree. And I think that I
really resonated with that because you
were like, you know, I would just say,
oh, I'm doing well. And like in my
science classes, I was struggling. I have
(08:37):
a chemistry degree and I I don't even
know how I struggled through it because
it was just like you just move through
the corporate ladder and you just, it's
almost like the priority is to
keep yourself perception and not have
people question you versus be like, oh,
this is not what I want to
do and then like try to start
(08:58):
over. So I think even for me, like I have
a corporate career and I'm doing well and
now I'm rocking the boat of like, oh, I
just want to do this thing called a life
coach where people are like, what does
that even mean?And why would you get put
yourself on that unstable position to
like leaving the stability of a paycheck,
which it's really just your thoughts
(09:18):
about it, right?Could it could be even
more stable and more flexible for your
life. So I guess like, so say for
example like. You know how we talk about
the stability is so important and that's
like what's rooted in us. And then when
you're going against these traditional
like career paths, especially when you go
into entrepreneurship, there is just that
instability and like you have to be
(09:40):
flexible, at least in the beginning to
you just don't know what's going to
happen. And it's not for better or for
worse, like it could just be either way.
So is there something that that like, you
know, a tool or some some type of thought
process that you recommend?someone that
wants to kind of break that barrier
because I see it a lot in the people that
(10:01):
I coach. It's like, oh, my friends and
family see me in this way. And it's like,
I'm so stable and I'm an expert. And now
I would be starting over, especially when
it's things like they want to go from
being like a doctor to like a yoga
teacher or like something like from
finance to like one of my clients wanted
to be a spiritual coach and it's very
(10:21):
like different. Venues and how would
you like, yeah, if there's anything that
you recommend that you've seen in your
practice or yeah, I mean it's it's
it's very complicated, right. I I wish
there was just one thing I could tell
people to do and then it was few answers
and it would be easier. But this is
essentially the work I do with my
clients. I practice as a narrative
therapist, which means I help my clients
(10:43):
kind of identify what those stories are
that they. Tell themselves about
themselves. And the stories that we learn
come from our elders, our caregivers, our
parents, the family that we grew up
in, the cultural system that we
grew up in, the cultural system that we
now live in, the dominant society,
experiences that we've had of shame or
(11:04):
guilt or pride. All of these things kind
of create stories that we now have
learned to be true. And the truth about
who we are, right?I am someone who is
stable. I'm an expert in this field. I
can no longer change what I'm doing
because I've made it so far in this
field. Therefore I have to stay in this
field. But where does that story actually
come from, right?What are the cultural
narratives or the socio-cultural
(11:25):
narratives as a woman especially, right?
There's in all cultures, these kinds of
narratives were fed about timeline and
when you're supposed to do certain things
and how you're supposed to prioritize
getting married or having kids, and that
can be compounded. Depending on the
culture you talk about. But as a South
Asian woman, that was the narrative I was
fed was, you know, be good at school, you
know, be successful in that way. But
(11:47):
ultimately you're going to get married,
you're going to have kids, and that
should be your priority. And so a
lot of the work is really just
interrogating where those stories come
from and how much you've internalized
them to be truth. Because not everything
we tell ourselves about ourselves is
truth. We just are using it being that
way. Even for me, right?I've lived
multiple different lives. I have worked
(12:09):
in multiple different jobs, whether they
were part-time jobs as a waitress, a
field hockey coach, or I was a lot of
volunteer opportunities to figure out
fields I wanted to be in. I was pre-med
before I failed out of school. I got my
associate's degree. I worked in
journalism for seven years, and then I
decided to go back to school to be a
therapist and through all of this. I've
created my own business of being a mental
(12:30):
health educator, serving a community I'm
really passionate about. And when I say
it like that, it's really easy to be
like, oh damn, you're really successful.
You like, figured it all out. But the
process was messy and hard and
painful and difficult and. Really,
what it comes down to, we can interrogate
these stories. We can build up our
self-confidence. We can work on our
(12:50):
self-esteem. We can figure out, you know,
the things that we want to do, the things
that we value. But ultimately,
ultimately, even after you do all of
those things, there's one thing that you
have to do that no one else can do for
you, and that is bet on yourself. You are
the only person who can bet on yourself.
And that's really what it came down to
for me. I had moments where no one
believed in what I was doing. No one
(13:10):
understood it. My parents were confused,
scared. Worried. There were so many
things, but I ultimately bet on myself
and that, you know, there are practical
ways to do that. I saved up money. I made
sure that I was practically able to
survive in a capitalist world and and
make sure that I was able to set myself
up to be able to spend time doing things
that were important to me. I worked
(13:32):
full-time while I started my my, you
know, brown girl therapy. I was in school
full-time. Eventually it got to a point
where I said, OK, I can't work full-time
and be in school and do this, so I'm
going to leave my full-time job and. I
remember my dad being like, OK, well,
what are you going to do next?You have to
make money. You have to do something. And
I, you know, was in a financial place
where I had some money saved. I was in a
(13:52):
partnership where my husband was really
supportive. And I said, you know what?I'm
going to just bet on myself for a little
bit. If it doesn't work out after X
amount of time, I will find a job. I will
figure it out. I will change. Reevaluate.
Yeah. But you have to bet on yourself
because no one else is going to do that
for you. And. It's OK if when you bet on
yourself, it's still hard or it's
confusing or you change path or you
(14:14):
decide you don't want to do it anymore.
But you really only can know when you
do it and when you try, right?Yeah.
And I think like I love that you said
like the practical way is like
just ensuring that you're financially
stable because I think sometimes it's
like and it can be like for now for the
timeline you give yourself cause
sometimes when I coach my clients, it's
(14:35):
like. Oh, like, am I going to be able to
live off this for five years?And you can
just be successful in your business in a
year. Like you can make the money back
depending on what you're opening and what
you're buying and doing and all that
stuff. But sometimes it's as simple as
needing like Zoom and a social media
account, which is, which is not very
expensive and the investment is not high.
(14:56):
But in our minds it may look like a lot
more. And when somebody says, oh, it's
unstable, especially like family members
and community members. Like, it doesn't
have to be. I mean, I guess like, do you
think it's also important not to have
feel like you have to answer those
questions or like, you know, I
guess it is part of the narrative of like
(15:17):
giving too much power into questions
because sometimes I'll have to remind
myself and even my constant being like,
OK, the questions you get doesn't need to
be like a stop. Like it doesn't. It's not
as much of A warning. It may just be
something. That from that person's
perspective, they're just trying to look
out for you or they have a reason, but it
doesn't have to be taken that seriously
(15:38):
and you don't have to really give in to
those like, yeah. Yeah. And I think it's
important to remember that when you get
advice or questions or pushback from
people, you really want to ask yourself,
who's giving you this advice or who's
pushing back?Are these people who
understand what you're trying to do?Do
they, are they living out lifestyles and
values that are important to you?Are
(15:59):
they, you know, people whose
advice and words you respect?And it can
be really hard because oftentimes it ends
up being our parents or our families and
we have to like then sift through and
parse. You know, are they coming from a
place of fear?Are they coming of a place
because they believe in what I'm doing?
Are they coming from a place because they
understand what I'm doing?And sometimes
we just have to sit in that, you know,
(16:20):
messy middle and say, OK, they don't
really get it. I understand that they're
scared. They're coming from a place of
fear. How can I maybe address that fear
to, like, get them more on board?But
also, do they need to get on board for me
to bet on myself?And that's where
practicality comes in, right?I work with
people who might say, oh, I live at home
and my parents are not going to support
me anymore if I quit. My job. OK, well,
(16:42):
then there are practical things that
might need to happen. You might need to
figure out if there's a way for you to
start this thing on your own without them
knowing. You might want to prioritize
moving out or building up financial
security so you can be financially
independent before you do this. I mean,
there's a level of privilege there, but,
you know, sometimes we have to go back to
the basics before we can get to a place
and say I can bet on myself now, right?I
(17:05):
would be able to get physical and
emotional distance from my family, move
out of the house. Build a level of
financial independence where then I said
I can do this for myself because really I
am risking me, what I'm doing, what I'm
working on, what I have versus risking,
you know, what they've given me or
there's no strings attached like them
being supportive in this. And I think we
have to kind of discern between some of
(17:27):
those questions and and where they're
coming from. Yeah, that's so important.
And I know it's a case by case basis, but
I think just the betting on yourself and.
Taking some practical steps, I think that
kind of gives people some more relief
rather than be like, oh, just believe in
yourself and you'll do it. And it's just
thought process. But you do have to take
action that aligns with what you want to
(17:48):
do. Otherwise you're just never going to
know. And it's just going to be this
thing that you always have in your mind.
Yeah. And I think you want to be, you
want to be honest with yourself about why
you're doing what you do, right?Purpose,
mission, being those things matter a lot.
And I think those can be the fuel. When
you don't have fuel, it's just reminding
(18:08):
yourself. I'm doing this because I am
very passionate about it or I really
believe in. This thing that I'm doing, if
you are doing it just to do it and there
isn't really meaning or purpose or
passion behind it, it's going to be very
hard to continue to bet on yourself or
sustain it. I'm six years in
to Brown Girl Therapy, right?It was very
difficult. There were times where I took
six month breaks from being online
(18:28):
because I just couldn't. I had other
things going on in my life, you know,
building something doesn't happen
overnight. And it requires a level of,
like, sustainable passion and purpose
where you can, like, see yourself through
some of those darker days to get to the
other side. And ultimately,
trying doesn't mean like betting on
(18:48):
yourself doesn't necessarily mean you're
gonna get to a place where you are
incredibly successful. Successful is
different to everyone. It might
mind-based freedom. It might mean making
more money. It might mean just leaving a
job that you're really unhappy in. It
might mean being able to, like. Art time,
do something that you like and then
working a different job the other hours
of your day. It looks different for
(19:09):
everyone and I think that's something
that people have to get clear on. I think
setting those. You know, quarterly goals,
those micro goals every quarter, being
really honest with yourself about what it
is that you, you know, are trying to go
like reaching for and then building those
goals as you go is how you grow. And I
didn't, you know, I didn't start Brown
Girl Therapy saying, OK, this is going to
(19:30):
be a business, this is going to make me
money. This is going to be, you know,
where I have a whole brand that is
recognized and a book that comes because
of it. Like I didn't, I didn't build it
with any of those in mind. I mean, if six
year old, six years ago me saw this, I
know that she would be astounded by what
I've done. But I went into it being like,
I feel really passionate about this thing
that I want to build and create. I did a
(19:53):
lot of market research. It didn't exist
at that time. So I was like, I'm, I'm
gonna just see what happens. And slowly
it kept changing shape. It kept changing
its purpose. It kept changing like the
meaning for me. And it just has continued
to build into what it is today. But.
It itThis isn't what I thought it was
gonna be. I thought this was just gonna
always be a side project I just loved.
(20:14):
Oh, yeah. I thank you for sharing that.
Because I think sometimes when we're
thinking of our business and our goal,
especially when you're starting off, a
lot of times, at least in my experience,
this is one of the first experiences
these women have had to, like, do
something that's heart-led just because
they wanna do it. And that's not because
it's gonna look good outwardly or, you
(20:35):
know, your parents gonna be more, but
they're probably gonna be more confused
than anything else. So I think like
it's so I really like that you share
that, you know, it changes and
evolves and it's not that you need like
six years ago you wouldn't have
recognized that this is what it would be.
So it's almost like being OK with
not knowing and like just starting and
(20:57):
knowing that it's it's important to
you. And even if it's the first time
you're doing something just for you, it's
OK. But it doesn't mean that you have to
know exactly what it needs to look like.
Like giving that flexibility. Yeah, I
mean that's that's the biggest thing I
think that we struggle with as first Gen.
women of color is that our parents
(21:17):
and our families are gonna push back
because they can't see what the end
result is. And I think to some degree we
can't see what the end result is. So then
we get really confused and then we're
like, Oh no, maybe I shouldn't be doing
this cause I don't actually know what
it's supposed to be instead of saying I'm
gonna actually just take it month by
month, day by day. And I can change my
mind at any point. This can change
course. This can be turned into something
(21:38):
different. I can stop at any time. And I
think that that's the freedom and
liberation that we want to give ourselves
is knowing that because of the privilege
we have, you know, having the courage to
start something that's different,
unfamiliar and not on the traditional
path also means giving yourself the
freedom to decide when you want to change
course or stop also. So yeah.
(21:59):
Using it, you're not necessarily putting
yourself into like another box and
saying, OK, now I have to, this has to be
something. I have to make it work. It has
to, you know, turn into something.
Instead, I think that's where the heart
and the purpose and the meaning and the
passion kind of lead it. You
know, we it's hard to conceptualize
something that's never been done and it's
(22:21):
hard to conceptualize something that
you've never done. And so you need to
give yourself grace to figure it out as
you go, right?Yeah, because I think.
You know when we start a job or even a
degree, a lot of times like I've done it,
it was like I picked this major, I'm just
gonna, I'm gonna finish it because I I
selected it and then I'm gonna graduate
early cause I don't wanna do it anymore
and it might look better. So it's just
(22:41):
very much like like it's just a ripple
effect. But I think if it is the
business and you give your it's I guess
like would you say this could even be
part of the base business plan of course
like. You first need to know that you're
gonna bet on yourself. Like this is like
other people may not be there as you may
want and maybe it'll come along, but just
(23:01):
that is one of the things that you just
have to accept that as first Gen. if
you're especially if you're doing
something different from the traditional
roles. And then I guess even planning for
like not giving yourself the out, like
giving yourself the permission, planning
for like not knowing how it could be and
then. Just that flexibility of changing
(23:21):
and that there isn't anything wrong with
not knowing like that's actually what
it's supposed to be. Cause I think in
school and like doing bad is like getting
a bad grade is bad. But I think in
business it's actually really helpful
when things don't work out cause then
you're like maybe my messaging could be
different or actually maybe you're
learning something. Yeah, your platform
may be it may be simple as small things,
(23:43):
but you're learning along the way rather
than I think. Traditionally it's like OK
you fail that's like big no
let's make it a secret and like don't
share with anyone. So yeah definitely.
And I think there's I don't know what
it's called but there's like a fallacy
and and productivity you know work
field around like planning and how
(24:05):
it's really easy to like it's
really easy to like overestimate how
quickly or under I forget
it's really easy to like plan for
something and then not give yourself. The
flexibility during that planning. So
instead there's like a rigidity that says
like, OK, in one month I'm gonna do this,
in two months I'm gonna do this and three
weeks I'm gonna do this. But instead when
(24:25):
you plan for that, also give buffer time
in those. So if you think it's gonna take
two weeks to get 100 followers, give
yourself a month, right?Like always add
to whatever it is you think, whatever you
think the timeline needs to be, because
that's also gonna give you grace to like.
Make mistakes, slow down, figure it out,
change your mind, change course, whatever
(24:47):
it is. And I think that that's something
I had to learn the hard way, which was,
you know, Brown Girl Therapy didn't
become like more of a business until two
years in. And then when I was figuring
out what that meant, you know, it's
continued to change course and sometimes
that has looked like. Making a certain
amount of money to invest it into
mentorships or coaching or whatever else
to get the support I need. Sometimes it's
(25:09):
looked like taking a step back and just
being like, I need time away to figure
out what this is even gonna look like.
Sometimes bringing in the community to
say, hey, there are 10 people who've been
a part of this since day one. Let me just
ask them, what do they think?Well, you
know, let me do like a mini focus group
myself. And ask the people who care about
my work what they think it should be.
(25:29):
And it's also, it goes back to what I
said before. It's making sure that you
have people around you whose opinion and
advice you trust. So instead of
focusing on the pushback and the fear and
the advice you're getting from people
whose values maybe are different from
yours, where can you build up a level of
mentorship, community support, right?
There's many. Podcasts like this. There's
(25:49):
many business women in business events,
probably in your city or in your town.
There's lots of online networking events.
So like, where can you also build up
those relationships so you feel supported
as you figure it out, right?Yeah, it's
like expanding the community rather than
it just being like this is a community I
come from. It has to be friends or family
(26:09):
right now. It could just be because I
think it was. 2020, I think you had your
conversation club. I don't even know if
that's what you called it, but it was
basically it is, right. So it was just
nice to be like, oh, as a South Asian,
you can talk about these things openly.
And like, these are topics that
I don't know, like, I don't know if all
(26:30):
my friends are willing to go in and
self-reflect and talk about and openly
and not give advice to each other, but
hold a space. I don't know if that's
something that. It would be, I think it's
very difficult if you're in the place of
like, I wanna do a business and I wanna
grow in this way. It's much, much harder
to change the group that you're in
(26:52):
rather than find people that are already
doing it. And then you can see what you
can take and give. 'Cause I think that's
one of the stressors of like,
even for example, that person in finance
is like, oh, my friends don't value this.
And it's like, no, there's definitely
communities. And I think we live in a
place where around the globe, we can
connect with people so easily compared to
(27:13):
like when I was in high school and
college, I guess it wasn't as easy. So,
yeah. YeahYeah
Oh, awesome. And I know that you have
your online community, like I
know you have Brown Girl Therapy, that's
like your handle on Instagram, but you
also have a group and it's culturally
enough, is that right?So I have two. So I
(27:34):
have a newsletter called Culturally
Enough and that is on Substack and people
can join that for free or paid. Paid gets
like more deep dives into certain
content, but also community
clubs and conversations with other people
in the community and a couple other perks
like guided monthly reflections and
meditations. Book club is coming next
next year. So lots of like fun things
(27:56):
there to just be in community with other
like-minded bicultural or multicultural
people. Every month I explore a new
theme. So right now in November we're.
Exploring what it means to grow up in a
chaotic family. December, we're exploring
what it means. What do you owe your
parents and like, what does that mean and
how does that impact you?And then I have
a community group program which is called
Boldly Bicultural, which is a four month
(28:18):
community program that I run. I'm
actually in the first. Installment of it.
So, you know, I've got my little Guinea
pigs. They've been really amazing. They
are all like really excited about it.
It's four months, 22 hour calls a month,
plus workbooks and, you know, a private
chat that's ongoing between sessions. And
that has been more of a deep dive into
what I talk about in the book. So it's
(28:39):
divided into four different themes. Every
month we talk about something new, family
relationships, bicultural identity and
emotion and Wellness. And so. That's been
really fun. So that's again going back to
like what does it mean to grow your
business?I I
struggle to like make money off of my
business for a long time I was doing.
(29:00):
Other things besides community, like
I always wanted to retain accessibility
for the community. So I would make my
money on corporate speaking gigs or, you
know, consulting or other things that I
would do as a mental health educator. I'm
a practicing therapist. I make money that
way. I'm a writer. I make money that way.
But I always struggle to understand what
it meant to charge the community that I
(29:20):
want to serve. And I think that's
something a lot of first-gen women of
color struggle with because. You don't
want to, you want to retain
accessibility, but you also need to make
money and you also value reciprocity.
So I started slow, right?The the
newsletter was the 1st way I was like, or
I think I had a Patreon first like many
years ago and that was like $5 a month.
If you want it, if you value my work and
(29:41):
you want to support, like here's how you
can do it. And then eventually I started
a newsletter community and I was like,
OK, $10 a month and I, you know, I always
over deliver. It's something I love about
myself. So I'm like. I'm going to make
sure it's always worth it to people. And
then I've done some community workshops
here and there, one-offs. But now like
the the community program, it's the first
bigger ticket item I've ever sold to the
(30:02):
community. And just seeing the reception
of it and it sold out and there was a
wait list. And and you know, I think for
me there's also something to be said
about building your expertise around the
thing you want to do, trying a lot of
things, doing things maybe more
accessibly and at low cost to figure it
out and then. Building that
community to then charge those bigger
(30:23):
ticket items. People do it differently. I
know people who do it the other way, who
say I never want to start low because I
value my work. And that's fine too. I
think this is like what you don't know.
You can find people who know. And that's
what I've had to lean into. I've been
building Grown Girl Therapy by myself for
five years, and then just about 10 months
ago, I decided to hire a social media
manager, hire an online business manager.
(30:44):
And by investing now five years in, six
years in into my business with people who
can do things that I don't know how to do
or take too much time for me and aren't
enjoyable for me has let me then grow the
things I love doing, which is being with
the community, building these, you know,
educational like programs. And I think
that is also key is like do the things.
(31:05):
As an entrepreneur, you are doing
everything all the time. You are every
single goal of your business. And I know
I get that, but you can also.
Eventually get to a place where you can
you can outsource what you don't enjoy.
And that that's a slow process. But just
remind yourself that you don't have to do
everything all the time forever. Forever.
Yeah. YeahYeah
(31:27):
Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. I think
even like, remember, because I think
that's something that my clients struggle
with as well of like, oh, this is
something that's heart lit I'm doing
because it's important. And now I'm
leaving. Maybe I'm leaving my job or the
traditional role that has been so
financially stable. And how do I go about
doing that?And like, it is about being
creative with how do you want to start?
(31:48):
And it doesn't have to be like a stop in
the air with your job and then you go. It
could be a slow process, like you said.
And how are you creative with sharing
what value you provide?Like it could be.
I know even on your Instagram post, like
they're so valuable. Like a lot of them
I'll see, I'll share even just the post
like it's for free cause it's on social
media, but it's so valuable even in that
(32:11):
and like even creating a podcast which
is, well, I guess some of them are
charged, but you can just have free
podcasts and have guests that you have
value that you share. So there's a lot of
different ways of doing that. But I think
it is like you said, just being
open-minded of like. There's
flexibility. It doesn't have to be so
rigid. You don't. You can decide to stop.
(32:31):
You can decide to take a break, like you
said. And sometimes, like you know how
you said, like you hired a coach or you
hired or just, you know, working on
yourself. You took a break for a few
months or a year. Like it's actually so
productive toward your business, even if
it looks like you're not creating
that consistent, cause I think sometimes
consistency kind of. Gives that like
(32:54):
ripple effect of like, oh, now I'm just
not like as focused on my business and
I'm not committed and it doesn't have to
necessarily be that way. Yeah,
exactly. And it's it's a normal thing to
struggle with, especially in social media
where it's just like everyone is on all
the time and you're, you know, it's like,
yeah, then you know how many. Yeah. And
then there's rules of the algorithm
changing and then how many times you
(33:14):
post, I'm going to post when I can and
like it's going to be valuable, but it's
not going to be like. You're going to get
it at 1:00 PM on Monday or like some,
yeah, sometimes scheduled, but like it
doesn't have to be all that. Yeah,
no, I mean, I literally took
6 to 8 months off here and there in the
beginning of posting, but that I was
still doing other things. I was gaining
(33:35):
expertise, I was reading books, I was
learning, I was meeting people, I was
doing networking events, I was starting
to do corporate speaking gigs. So the
community might not have. You know, if
you were to follow my Instagram and only
my Instagram, you might have been like,
oh, she kind of disappeared. But also no
one noticed, like 6 months. No one cares.
Like no one noticed. No one knew. And the
minute I came back, no one was like, oh,
you've been gone. It was like, OK, great,
(33:57):
like let's let's let's get back on the
momentum. So sometimes that pressure is
just pressure we put on ourselves as
well. I totally agree. Cause there was
this one post that was like, oh, do you
remember the last post you read?And
like I can't remember the last thing
cause there's so many things. So then
they're like OK, don't put so much
pressure on what you create then as a
post. And I think a lot of people
struggle to be like how do I get started?
(34:18):
What do I say?And it's like people are
gonna be hyper focused and. Our focus is
so like our attention spans are so low
now because there's so much going on that
you don't need that pressure on every
single post. So it kind of and I actually
wanted to ask you like when you started
using social media as a platform, you
mentioned that like I think it was like a
(34:39):
professor or a colleague that had
like feedback and pushback of like you
shouldn't be as a therapist on this
platform. So how did you like navigate
that cause I I think. We just get so much
feedback and and it goes back to being
careful with who you take. Yeah, it's
it's definitely. So I had a professor in
grad school tell me that I should be a
(35:01):
blank slate. And basically having come
from journalism where you can already
find personal essays I've written, I've
always had like a bigger social media
presence because I worked in journalism.
So I had a, you know, I had a Twitter
account. I had all of these things. And
for him to tell me this, he first of all
was an older white male professor. So
already not understanding or inclusive of
cultural differences there, of building
(35:23):
community and the importance of community
and how underrepresented my own community
is in the mental health world. So I
remember feeling really bad and I
remember second-guessing this is probably
not the field for me. I made a mistake
coming to grad school. I should leave.
And instead, what I did was I found
mentors. So I went to the two professors
of color in my program who I
(35:44):
knew would understand and went to them
and said, here's what happened to me. I
feel bad. I'm worried I'm in the wrong
field. And they were able to give me the
advice and feedback, you know, rooted in
ethics and integrity that I needed, which
was what you're doing is not wrong. Here
are ways you can do it with integrity.
Here's how you can do it ethically. You
can still be a therapist.
(36:07):
And I think that that kind of mentorship
is really important. Yeah. YeahAnd
also like knowing that you have, you
have to look for it sometimes it's not
easily like available. Well, I feel like
it can be if you if you allow yourself to
look in the right places and keep even as
I think even finding a therapist, that's
something that, you know, somebody that's
(36:28):
culturally informed, like not necessarily
someone the same culture as you as the
most benefit, but. And I think kind of
shopping around like as you said, like
even mentors or even taking breaks like
that's productive and like that's helpful
still. I don't like using the word
productive cause I think it's like
especially as first January, just like
oh, everything like rest is bad and all
that. But it's still helpful to your
(36:49):
business and still growing it. Like if
you're growing, that's still like your
value and you're still able to like share
with others. So yeah, yeah, I agree. And
the last thing I'll say, you know, cause
I hadn't mentioned it yet was like.
Getting on yourself also just means
starting whatever it is you want to start
without waiting for things to feel
perfect. So like when I started Brown
(37:10):
Girl Therapy, I mean, if you look at the
Brown Girl Therapy logo, I don't have a
logo. I just created one in Canva that
just says Brown Girl Therapy. I didn't
have a website for four years. I honestly
didn't get a website until last year,
which is wild because I've been, you
know, getting requests and DMS and I
had my e-mail on my profile, but I didn't
have a website that like told people what
I did or what services I have.
(37:33):
And for me, I I'm not saying wait four
years to get a website, but don't say I
need to have a website. I need to know my
color scheme. I need to know my branded
logo. I need to know all these things
before I can start. No, that's just you
like procrastinating and tricking
yourself into not doing the thing that
you want to do. And so I think sometimes
taking this first step is just taking the
(37:54):
first step. Yeah. Thank you for sharing
that. Cause I think there is a lot of
like noise of shoulds in business of like
it should be like. You have a big mailing
list and you have a freebie and like it
could just be like how you find clients
and that's enough because I I think I
even struggled with that in the beginning
of like I used to get clients of
(38:14):
referrals and it was through networking
events but not so much through social
media and a website. So it was almost
like I was almost dismissing of how I'm
how I'm being successful, but it could
just be starting and like. Yeah.
Sharing what you have to share. So yeah,
it could be simple is what I mean. Like
the betting on yourself sounds like, oh,
(38:34):
it has to be this huge commitment because
it could be like a simple first step of
just create a social media account. And I
think there's a lot of like mindset work
that goes into just being like no one's,
no one's going to remember exactly, but
it could spark some interest and then
come back. But it's not like a one time
thing. It's a yeah, it's
a process. Yeah, exactly.
(38:57):
Thank you. This has been so helpful. So
like, I want to make sure before we log
off, like how can people find you?
What's new?Like anything that you want to
share?Cause I think all the things that
you're doing is is so valuable. And I
remember being in your conversation clubs
and I was like, oh, this is such a life
changer. So like, I want to make sure
people can like find you. Thank you.
Yeah. So the easiest way is just through
(39:18):
Instagram on at Brown Girl Therapy.
There's a website there like there's like
my link tree there where you can find a
bunch of other stuff. My book. So
you know, I I again, I'm very intentional
about having different offerings at
different price points. So you know,
LinkedIn, TikTok, Instagram is where
you'll find a lot of valuable content for
free. I have my newsletter, which is part
free, part paid depending on you know
(39:40):
what you have access to, which we go into
deeper dives into like a smaller
community. It's still big and it's still
growing, but a smaller community where we
talk about specific. Cultural issues when
it comes to mental health. And then I
have my Washington Post advice column,
which is free if you have a Washington
Post subscription. If not, there are
sometimes workarounds. I'll just say that
(40:03):
I post a lot of them anyways on
Instagram. Yeah, that's what I was just
going to say that you post them anyway.
So yeah, my book, which is, you know, I
think $30 if you can get it on sale, I'm
sure, during the holidays. It's cheaper
on audiobook, cheaper on e-book. And so
that has full of information,
reflections, journal questions, all of
(40:23):
the things that I think would be really
helpful to people. And then I have other
offerings. I have my Boldy Bicultural
Community program, which is on wait list
right now. But you can learn about and I
do speaking gigs and you can learn about
literally all of it on my website, which
is just sahedgecorecolee.com.
And then I am in the process of starting
my own podcast soon. So there's lots
(40:45):
of that. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much
for being on and sharing your, like
your experience and tips and how people
can just like get started and like
just grow and like give that flexibility
and that like, you know,
space for themselves to just do the
things that they want to do, especially
when it comes to starting business. So
(41:07):
thank you so much. Yeah, of course. Thank
you so much for this great conversation.
Yeah, of course. All right.
Hey, if today's episode resonated with
you and you're ready to break free from
the cycles holding you back in your
business, it's time to book a
consultation with me. By the end of the
call, you'll know what's been holding you
back and you'll have a clear plan for
(41:28):
growing the business that's been on your
heart. So go ahead and head to the link
in the show notes to book your free call.
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