February 17, 2025 • 30 mins
In this insightful episode of the DeWinter Difference, Derek chats with Brad Johnson, PhD and David Smith, PhD about the role of male allyship in the workplace. Brad, a Professor of Psychology in the Department of Leadership, Ethics and Law at the U.S. Naval Academy, and a Faculty Associate in the Graduate School of Education at Johns Hopkins University, and David, a sociologist and Associate Professor in the Carey Business School at Johns Hopkins University, delve into their collaborative work to promote gender equity at work.
In their conversation, Brad and David discuss their books, Athena Rising: How and Why Men Should Mentor Women and Good Guys: How Men Can Become Better Allies for Women in the Workplace, and share how their experiences in the military have influenced and inspired their work. They also highlight their ongoing efforts to change workplace systems to advance gender equity. Don't miss this crucial conversation on leadership, mentorship, and advocacy.
Chapters:
00:00 Introduction to the DeWinter Difference Podcast
00:23 Meet Brad Johnson and David Smith
01:22 The Journey of Male Allyship
03:51 Challenges and Personal Motivations
04:38 Current Focus and Future Plans
06:09 Practical Advice for Male Allyship
10:55 Navigating Pushback and Cultural Shifts
19:09 Impact of Military Background
26:04 Final Thoughts and Contact Information
Learn more about Dave and Brad’s ongoing work, books, and news at www.workplaceallies.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello, everyone.
(00:00):
My name is Derek DeWinter and welcometo our listeners who are tuning into
the DeWinter Difference, an audiopodcast where I spend a bit of time
with incredible people I've knownfor years and you get to listen in.
I hope that our conversationsare insightful, fun, challenge us
all, make you think a little andare just long enough to listen
to while running an errand.
Our goal is to have a good time andprovide something that you can apply in
(00:20):
your own career, life and relationships.
Today we're speaking withBrad Johnson and David Smith.
Brad is a professor of psychologyin the Department of Leadership,
Ethics, and Law at the U.
S.
Naval Academy, and a facultyassociate in the Graduate School of
Education at Johns Hopkins University.
David is an associate professorin the Cary Business School
at Johns Hopkins University.
(00:41):
Together, they co authored twobooks, Athena Rising, How and
Why Men Should Mentor Women, andGood Guys, How Men Can Be Better
Allies for Women in the Workplace.
Now, this is a bit of a departure fromour typical conversations with a CFO,
CEO, or CHRO, and that we've had inour podcast in the past, which on its
own is a great reason to do anything.
For all of those out there leadingorganizations, developing teams, teaching
(01:05):
and promoting high achievers, then Bradand David are well worth the listen.
Me, maybe not so much.
Gentlemen, it's a pleasureto have you join me.
Thanks for having us.
Great to be here.
So where to begin?
Well, all good stories need to start.
So let's begin at your beginning.
In no particular order, share a littlebit about how you two met, what you're
(01:25):
spending the bulk of your time ontoday, and how this concept of male
allyship that you discuss in yourbooks and and in other conversations
that you have, probably also in schoolstarted taking shape along that journey.
Yeah, glad to do that.
I'll start here.
This is David.
And, you know, Brad and I met when wewere both teaching at the Naval Academy.
(01:47):
We were both professorsthere at the same time.
We overlapped for about seven years.
And I think Brad and I veryquickly recognized that we had a
connection in terms of our work,our research, and our teaching.
And as we began to explore that, Ithink we found a kind of a common area
(02:08):
of interest that we were interested in.
a lot of our own individualresearch that we do.
And so Brad is a clinical psychologist.
He's done all of his research inthe area of mentoring and career
developmental relationships and resources.
I'm a sociologist, and I've doneall my research in the area of
gender, work and family issues.
(02:29):
And one of the things that we noticed inour own organization at the time, and as
well as across many other organizations,is that, we wanted to explore.
Often the solution to what welook as as gender inequities.
So, for example, of lack of representationof women and senior leadership
positions in your organization, orjust a lack of gender parity broadly
(02:49):
in your organization, the solutionis often to focus Programming and
resources toward things like womenin leadership programs or women's
mentoring programs, which are great.
And those are much needed.
The challenge with that is that often.
or sends a signal to men thatyou don't have a place there.
(03:10):
It's not, that's not for you.
You don't have a role or a function.
And so they don't engage and they,and they don't see their place there.
The, the challenge with that is weneed, of course, all of us involved
in creating equity in the workplaceto level the playing field there.
We need men involved justas, As much as we do women in
collaboration to doing this work.
And so we love to look at this asmore of a leadership issue that
(03:33):
we all men and women as leaders.
We all have a role and a functionwhen it comes to creating that,
and we certainly saw a lot of thedisparities in our own research.
which kind of got us more curiousabout how, you know, how do we engage
more men in doing this work andhow do we level the playing field?
And that's what beganthis, this collaboration.
I will also tell you that for, forboth of us, that we both kind of have
(03:55):
personal connections to this work interms of people, women in our lives who
have shared some of their experiences.
For me, it was my wife who had aparallel career in the military.
For Brad, it was his sister again, aFollowed in his footsteps in terms of both
the Navy and in psychology and they shareda lot of their, their, the challenges,
(04:16):
the barriers, the microaggressions, thethings that they faced that really get
in touch with that sense of fairnessand justice that I think we all have.
And so I think that was a great point.
motivating factor for us as well.
And so we use that to reallyexplore that in, in our work.
And that's of course led to our firsttwo books, Athena rising, and then later
on good guys, which focuses on allyship.
(04:38):
As far as what we're focused on today,we're in the process of really thinking
about how do we take this to the nextlevel in terms of Changing systems.
We've been focused so much onindividually around people, which is
important because we need to do that.
As leaders, we need to think abouthow do we help managers and the
everyday person on the floor bea great, be a great ally in the
(05:01):
workplace and be part of the solution.
But at the same time,
we know there are everyday practices.
There are parts of our culture.
There are policies and processesin our organizations that reinforce
bias that are creating some of thesethings that are, you know, holding
us back from from getting to truegender equity in the workplace.
And so our focus right now, the workthat we're doing and really moving
(05:25):
toward our third book is is on howdo we create that in the workplace?
What are we doing?
leaders and organizations doing todaythat is having great success there.
And how can we, how can we extrapolatethat to other organizations, maybe of
different sizes, different sectors,different industries out there so
that we can all kind of share andlearn from each other in doing this.
(05:45):
We're trying to bring together allthese great best practices, which
fortunately there's, there's, thereare a lot of them, but that's also the
challenge of how do you, how do youboil that down and get that into a book?
And so we're really excitedto launch this new venture.
No,
It's good foundation for us to, tokind of the listeners, especially to
(06:05):
kind of conceptualize this conversationand where we kind of want to take it.
Brad several years ago, I attended anevent as part of women's organization
that I was on the board of, and you werepresenting on this topic of allyship,
which honestly, I hadn't really heardit spoken to so specifically before.
And one of the exercises that thatwe went through at the time was for a
(06:27):
man, which I was one of several thatwere there out of a group of about
100 or 150 people to approach a womanabout being a mentor or ally for them.
And so I was on a round tablewith another, another man.
And between the two of us, we dida terrible job in our mock session.
And it was, it was a veryintimidating thing to do.
(06:47):
And without a lot of planningfor what I was going to say.
because the exercise wasn't preplanned.
I didn't really know about it.
I came off as almost predatory and Iwish I had a different word for it,
but that's the one that I keep comingback to in, again, I hate to use the
word predatory, but I was pitching theidea of being an ally to someone who,
(07:07):
even in this exercise, immediatelyseemed to give off some concern about
the authenticity of the overture.
And there are certainly rightand wrong ways to do it.
And I probably did it.
The wrong way in that exercise.
So I'd love for you to talk aboutsome of the things that you've
heard in your experience for,for us to combat this notion.
yeah, yeah.
Well, well first of all, Derekyou know, thanks for your
(07:29):
courage and giving that a shot.
You know, I, I, I, I know that that'snot easy in these workshops to kind
of bust out your ally chops and, andgive some of these ally skills to try.
So, you know, I think thiswas probably exercise around,
Hey, if I see a high talent.
woman in my organization, andthere are probably lots of them.
(07:51):
How do I go about initiating adevelopmental relationship conversation?
And, and Derek, I'm going to give youa different word other than predatory.
I think, I think it can sometimescome off as a little creepy.
Maybe that's a little softer thanpredatory, but you know, I, and
I think it's natural, but men mayshow up and say something like this.
(08:13):
I'd like to mentor you.
Right.
And I just use my creepyvoice, which you never should.
But I think, I think we can get it wrongwhen we do this offer without any context.
Right.
She, of course, has no idea.
What are you talking about?
Where did this come from?
It's quite.
Different to sort of come alongsideand build in some affirmation, make it
(08:37):
authentic and say, Hey, you know, I sawyou do that talk last week in the meeting.
I thought it was really great.
And I was thinking to myself.
We're really lucky thatwe got to hire you.
And I was also thinking, Ihope we can keep you on board.
And so, you know, if you ever just want totalk about next steps in the organization,
(08:59):
what that might look like if there's anyway I can support or amplify that I've
got an open door, feel free to drop by.
Right?
That's a little different, right?
It doesn't have the creepy vibe.
It's an offer, but there's context to it.
And I'm able to convey to her someof what I already admire about her
(09:20):
performance and the way she shows up.
And now it's over to her, right?
To decide if she wantsto take me up on that.
I think that feels different.
I don't think it feels uncomfortable.
And.
You know, now it's, it's up toher, but I think most people
would probably take me up.
If I was a senior person in thecompany, I think they'd drop by.
(09:40):
So that's maybe just anexample of how that might look.
One other example, Dave and I, you know,often encourage men to build what we
call their GQ, their gender intelligence.
And I think when it comes toallyship, it's really important
not to put all the work on women.
To educate you about what theyexperience in the workplace.
(10:01):
So how about self educating, listento some great podcasts like this one,
learn about some of the headwindswomen encounter, and then go to some
of those trusted colleagues that youhave who happened to be women and
just say, Hey, I was in this session.
I learned about this.
And I'm really curious.
if this is going on here or ifthere are things I am missing and
(10:23):
would it be okay if I asked youabout some of your experiences here?
So Dave and I call this the ask toask, you know, I think that kind
of overture really conveys yourcuriosity, your interest, your humility.
And I think a lot of people arewilling to share with you about.
What they may be encounteringin the workplace at you
(10:45):
as a majority male or not.
So that's just anotherkind of contextualized way
to begin a conversation.
You are both incredible presenters.
The topic is awesome.
And, and, and I can't help but wonder,there must have been a few times, maybe
in the early stages of, of talking aboutthis, where the conversation landed poorly
(11:06):
or awkwardly, you know, in a room oryou got a very unexpected response from
a group of people around male allyship.
Am I wrong in thinking this?
Or or is, or is that something youcan talk about a little bit more?
you're not wrong at all.
And it's probably no surprise,but it often comes in more
majority male audiences.
(11:28):
And, and there could be, you know, itreally comes in the form of often some
pushback or at least some very, very indepth questioning about the validity or
what we're really talking about here.
And I think that.
You know, when we first starteddoing this work, just to be very,
very honest and open about this, Ithink, you know, early on, that was
(11:50):
one of those kind of fears, right?
Of, of, you don't want to bein that audience where you're
going to get all the pushback.
I think what we learned along the wayis that we, we really do want people
to push back and in areas that thatthey don't understand or they're not
comfortable with or they have other ideas.
Because this gives us an opportunityto engage in the conversation around
(12:12):
why we think this is important orto understand different ways and
perspectives of thinking about this.
And I think that's very helpful.
And so something that may have startedout to be very uncomfortable in dealing
with I think we quickly recognize thatthis was actually very helpful, and we
do want people to ask the hard questionsor the maybe what may seem like a very
uncomfortable question or pushing backon some of the concepts that we have and
(12:38):
about why this is true, or, you know,and For example zero sum beliefs are one
of those things that we often encounterwith again, a lot of majority identities
certainly with a lot of white men.
And, and that, you know, somehow byadvancing another group like women, that
somehow men are going to lose in, inthat and not understanding maybe the, the
(12:59):
perspective of understanding that, well.
You know, businesses and organizationsand people all tend to advance and
to gain more when we when we expandthe pie and doing it this way.
And so one, there's a lot more init for your organization and your
business, no matter what that is.
But two, there's more to be learnedand to be gained individually for
(13:19):
you as a person and as a leader.
When we diversify and we and we increasethe again, The gender equity within
the workplace and make it a placewhere again, everybody can thrive.
The other thing is that policies andpractices that we end up changing,
for example, more men today,especially as we think about younger
generations of men entering theworkplace have expectations about.
(13:41):
being more involved parentsand partners at home.
And so they're looking for aworkplace that's supportive of that.
And so again, as we begin to normalizethings like caregiving and who we are as
caregivers in the workplace, that again,tends to be associated more with women.
Well, if that becomes morenormalized, then it's acceptable
for men to be doing that as well.
(14:01):
And so again, we can be gainingand lots of other ways that people
are looking for, maybe not so eagerto talk about in different ways.
And let me add one more, Derek.
And that is the otherpart of the audience.
It's often there when Dave andI are speaking and that's women.
I think that we have encounteredpushback at times from women.
(14:23):
And I think initially we werea little surprised by that.
Like, Hey, we're women.
We're trying to be part of thesolution here on gender equity.
What's the deal.
And I think we had to learn some humilityaround how women can experience this.
If men sort of bud in to, youknow, maybe it's a women's ERG or
a women's conference, you know,these are safe spaces historically
(14:46):
for women to get together, sharewhat they're going through.
Collaborate with each other.
These have felt like, you know, Ithink almost sacred spots for women
to have one place free of, youknow, sexism and microaggressions.
So when men show up, understandably, somewomen can, you know, feel put off by that.
And I think we all have to showup with some real humility.
(15:09):
You know, I hope that we can getinvited in because, you know, the
World Bank estimates we've got roughly.
200 years to close the gender pay gapand other inequities in the workplace
at our current rate of progress.
We're not going to get there quicklyunless men start leaning in, but how
we collaborate with women mattersis cannot come off as intrusive.
(15:33):
It can't come off asrescuing and white knighting.
So men who show up in this space needto be collaborative, need to listen
and need to ask women Hey, what do youneed from me or how can I be helpful?
Work.
You've got a third book coming out,which you talked about a little bit
more of a systemic look at the topic.
(15:55):
How much work are you guys doing at a withcorporations specifically on this topic?
Or is it just books andspeaking engagements?
Help me understand that a little bit.
Yeah, great question.
I can mention a few things, Dave,and I'm sure you'll think of others.
You know, we do do the keynotesand the speaking for sure.
(16:15):
But I think more and more, Derek,we're doing, I think organizations are
interested in not just the keynote,which can be inspirational and give
kind of a level set for everybody intheir organization about, Why allyship,
what's the business and moral case?
Why are we talking about this?
What's in it for everybody?
And here are some tactics.
(16:36):
More organizations are interestedin, Hey, how do we upskill?
So Dave and I find ourselves doingmore workshops and, you know,
those are both workshops with men.
These can be men insenior leadership roles.
They can be men writ large, but theseare men who are leaning into partnering
with women in the organization.
to really be better alliesfor inclusion and equity.
(17:00):
And I think a lot of men believe in this.
That's what we find.
They just often don't know what to do.
So that's really thesolution that we're after.
How do we upskill people, bring them in,let them have collaborative conversations,
kind of like you, Derek, at thatworkshop you attended, let's practice,
you know, some of the micro skills.
So we do that with men.
(17:20):
We also do it with mixed gender audience.
And I think I don't want to speak forDave, but I think for both of us, that's
really kind of our favorite when we cantalk about gender collaboration broadly,
and then let both men and women andnon binary colleagues engage in these
conversations and practice moments.
(17:41):
It's the, the learning is so rich whenyou're doing that at a table with.
Colleagues who don't look like you.
So the skill building workshops, andthen interestingly, we've been pulled
into doing a lot of sponsoring work.
I think a lot of organizations are saying,Hey, the mentoring thing's important,
and Dave and I do a lot of that as well,but we really want to get to advocacy.
(18:05):
We're not going to close this gap until.
Men, especially start getting comfortablewith loudly sponsoring, loudly advocating
for women, becoming their raving fan.
And so we want to put resources into that.
So we've been involved in setting up andlaunching a number of sponsoring programs
across gender, but Dave, anything else?
(18:27):
Come to mind.
Yeah, I think that covers most of it.
A lot of it tends to be focused onmore kind of cultural shift in the
organization as well and making it aplace where it's not only safe to talk
about some of these topics, but encouragedto share and to talk about what's the
challenges that people are facing.
I think we're we're thewe're really looking to move.
(18:50):
In the coming years is really gettingback into the organizations to think
about their specific practices, right?
What are the structural thingsthat need to change right before
we could have lasting change?
And we can we can create change formany people, lots of people, as opposed
to just these one on one encountersthat we're focused on right now.
You both spent a fair amountof time at the Naval Academy,
(19:12):
and this is not a question thatI gave you advance warning on.
I'm curious if.
Being in that institution, thatenvironment advanced some of these.
Thoughts in a way that you maynot have been able to advance them
in a strictly corporate setting.
, I'm not even sure thatwas an actual question.
That's more of a statement,but like, is, is there a there
(19:34):
there in that idea or, or not?
is the Naval Institute a placewhere you can kind of think about
things a little bit differently andmaybe apply them in, I shouldn't
say the real world, but a differentworld, you know, outside of that?
That is an interesting question.
You know, I think the the militarycontext in that it's a again
longstanding, very traditional.
(19:56):
Hypermasculine institution and professionpresents a lot of similarities as
it turns out to other professions.
So as you think about medicine and,and law, for example, there's a lot of
commonality and even academia broadly.
And again, the Naval Academy iskind of that blend between the
(20:16):
academic world and and the military.
So we get two professions you know, ingetting the best or the worst of, and
both of those as you think about it.
So I think that it did provide thecontext for us in our, our, our work.
Our own experiences having been aroundthe military for so long to think about
how things work or don't work and,and how these would apply and some
(20:39):
of the things that we've encountered.
I think it, I think it certainlyinformed a lot of the questions that
we had as we began doing the researchand how we were going to explore this.
And and I think it alsoequipped us in understanding
how, again, a group of people.
focused on very, again, very missionpurpose focused group, right?
(21:01):
The military and peoplefocused on being leaders.
Leadership is important, right?
It's a critical part ofwho we are in the military.
So I think that gave us that contextin a way to talk to audiences in other
professions and other industries andother types of occupations out there.
They're different.
And I think that's one of the challengesis finding the nuanced differences of
(21:23):
what can I leverage in the culture ofthis occupation or profession that's
different than maybe the military oranother, maybe the legal profession.
And use that to your advantage.
Because again, I do think there aredifferences in the cultures within
these different professions that allowsyou to leverage different things.
And you should, and youshould look for that.
(21:47):
I think two other thingscome to mind for me, Derek.
I mean, number one, one of theinspirations for our first book,
Athena rising was these women weworked with at the Naval Academy.
These incredibly inspirational,incredibly talented and tough.
Young women who are preparing to golead sailors and Marines in combat.
(22:08):
Right.
When they graduate, I think, you know,our sense was if more men around the
country could engage with some ofthese women, I think we could solve
for gender inequity much more quicklybecause it would so shift their
mindset on women and their capability.
And I just think it would builda whole different framework for.
(22:30):
A lot of men who maybe are sufferingfrom some real embedded gender
bias, they don't understand fully.
The other thing about the militaryis, you know, we have the luxury in
the military of making this, as Davesaid, a mission driven organization.
So when the four star admiral,who's a CNO says, make it so we
(22:50):
are going to incorporate womeninto this specialty, Do it.
You know, those are yourmarching orders, right?
And everyone falls into line.
This is about the mission and weknow we're gonna be better and
stronger if we get this right.
So people, people fall into line andI think, I think that's a luxury a
lot of organizations don't have, andthere's something valuable about that.
(23:13):
Well, we've talked a little bitabout the, the unfamiliar territory.
This topic is, amongst others, to men,they're a minefield, they're full of
trapdoors, vernacular that you get, getsthrown around that you don't understand,
even references to pioneers, femalepioneers that are doing amazing things
that men just don't naturally see.
(23:35):
They're not around it nearly as much.
They're not part of thesesacred circles where those
conversations happen more naturally.
Do you have any advice?
Just quick advice for a guy out there.
It's like, all right, Ireally would like to lean in.
I'm a little nervous or I'm a lot nervous.
Where do I start?
Yeah.
Yeah.
The boy there's so much here, youknow, Dave and I, in our first
(23:55):
book Athena rising described thisas reluctant male syndrome, right?
There's so many things that make usmen uncomfortable with leaning into
this idea or the topic of allyshipreally, frankly, just anxious about
close relationships with women.
Maybe it's mentoring.
Maybe it's friendship.
Men are reluctant and there are differentingredients, you know, maybe I don't
(24:19):
want to step in it, get it wrong.
Maybe I'm afraid of gossip or rumors.
If I start mentoring a juniorwoman, maybe I've got implicit bias.
So I see women as nice, butnot really leadership material.
You know, maybe I'mafraid of getting me too.
I put that in, in quotations.
A lot of false narratives around Me Toothat have allowed men to sort of avoid
(24:42):
women post Me Too you know, with thefalse narrative that women are dangerous.
I will just tell you as a clinicalpsychologist, and I spend a lot of
time reminding men of this, there'sonly one cure for anxiety and
that includes anxiety about women.
And it's called exposure therapy.
More engagement, more interaction, morelunches, more coffee, more mentoring.
(25:06):
Don't make that her problem.
You know, if you're feeling theanxiety, you need to address that
yourself because your organizationis going to be held back.
If you don't lean in some otheringredients for overcoming this, get
comfortable being uncomfortable, right?
You know, a lot of this is new to you.
That's fine.
You need to take the first step andstart showing up at maybe it's the
(25:28):
women's ERG or other gender events.
Start learning start having moreconversations with female colleagues.
When you step in it, when you get itwrong, when you learn something, share
that with other people, you know,maybe other men say, here's, I really
got this wrong today in a meeting.
I got feedback about it.
I had no idea I was doing this.
(25:50):
I'm sharing this with youin a spirit of humility.
Maybe, maybe you canlearn from my mistake.
And I think I'm betterfor having learned that.
So those are just a few ideas.
Well I've asked you both a bunch ofquestions that you've been so thoughtful
about answering and the final part ofour podcast is me flipping the script a
(26:12):
little bit and throwing it to you guysto ask me a question which I don't know
what it is and so I'll do my very best totry not to step in that trap door myself.
So I'll let you have at it.
Okay.
Well, well, Derek, it won't shock you.
I got to follow up my last comment byjust asking you, you know, have you,
(26:32):
have you had one of those experiencethat Dave and I have experienced almost
every month in the last 12 years whereyou kind of got something wrong maybe in
the space of relationships with women.
To be an ally.
, maybe in a meeting you were,you did something or said
(26:52):
something that didn't land well.
Was there an example, you know,something come to mind and then
how did you pivot from that?
How did you learn from it?
How did you recover?
Because often these are sortof epiphany moments for men.
So I just wonder, isthere something for you?
Well, I'd be lying if I said it doesn'thappen often enough to be dangerous.
(27:15):
Like I, I can't, I can't giveyou a specific example right now.
Maybe I don't want to on air.
But it happens.
And I think the important thingthat you talked about was like
being in a comfortable enoughplace where you could actually.
Acknowledge it again.
Share it with somebody.
Share it ideally directly withthe person, in my opinion, who
(27:35):
maybe did take something thewrong way or find what you said
uncomfortable or whatever it might be.
Like, I think the important thingis to not brush it under a rug.
Because then you can't be better for it.
You know, I first started my journeyon being part of women's organizations
(27:56):
about 10 years ago when I was askedto be the only man on the board of a
women's organization called Watermarkand being the first man in the door
was really exciting really daunting.
And I found myself in thefirst several board meetings.
Not expressing my opinion on much anddoing a whole lot of listening, which I
don't think is a bad idea, by the way.
(28:17):
But my very first introduction to thatorganization was one of the board members
coming up to me, up to me saying, Derek,I did not vote for you to be on the board.
Hmm.
I thought to myself, well, thisis, this is a crazy introduction.
How am I going to fix this?
And my response to her was,well, it will be up to me to
(28:37):
to make you change your mind.
And so, you know, I, I take that intoconsideration when I'm having these
reflective conversations with peopleit's up to me to make you change your
mind about the things that I'm saying.
It's up to me to make myself a betterresource, a better mentor, a better
advisor, and a better person in general.
So that was very long winded.
(28:59):
I love that example.
Yep.
Well, and so a little commercial forthe two of you, how do our listeners get
ahold of YouTube for speaking engagementsfor, for anything related to this topic,
other than obviously going to yourfavorite bookstore and picking up a
couple of books and a third on the way?
Yeah, you can.
I think the easiest way is just to go toour website and that's workplace allies.
(29:23):
That's all one all one wordworkplace allies dot com.
And you can find out the lateston what we're up to and reach out.
And we can certainly talk aboutthings if there's ways you would
like to collaborate with us.
Fantastic.
Well on behalf of everybody who'slistening, I thank you for the
great work that you're doing.
You're two incredible men, leadersfathers and resources to our country.
(29:46):
In addition to being greatsociologists and psychologists.
So thank you for your time.
I appreciate it very much, and Ihope you guys have a fantastic day.
Thanks,
Thanks,
Derek.
Thank you so much for taking the time tolisten to the DeWinter Difference podcast.
If you like this episode,head to dewintergroup.
com backslash DeWinter hyphen differenceto catch future episodes and share your
thoughts, comments, or suggestions,and make sure to connect with us
(30:10):
on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Twitter.
This podcast is producedby the DeWinter Group.
The leading recruiting firmin the Bay Area and beyond.
We help top companies and peoplereach their fullest potential through
world class accounting, finance,and technology recruiting services.
Hello, everyone.
(00:00):
My name is Derek DeWinter and welcometo our listeners who are tuning into
the DeWinter Difference, an audiopodcast where I spend a bit of time
with incredible people I've knownfor years and you get to listen in.
I hope that our conversationsare insightful, fun, challenge us
all, make you think a little andare just long enough to listen
to while running an errand.
Our goal is to have a good time andprovide something that you can apply in
(00:20):
your own career, life and relationships.
Today we're speaking withBrad Johnson and David Smith.
Brad is a professor of psychologyin the Department of Leadership,
Ethics, and Law at the U.
S.
Naval Academy, and a facultyassociate in the Graduate School of
Education at Johns Hopkins University.
David is an associate professorin the Cary Business School
at Johns Hopkins University.
(00:41):
Together, they co authored twobooks, Athena Rising, How and
Why Men Should Mentor Women, andGood Guys, How Men Can Be Better
Allies for Women in the Workplace.
Now, this is a bit of a departure fromour typical conversations with a CFO,
CEO, or CHRO, and that we've had inour podcast in the past, which on its
own is a great reason to do anything.
For all of those out there leadingorganizations, developing teams, teaching
(01:05):
and promoting high achievers, then Bradand David are well worth the listen.
Me, maybe not so much.
Gentlemen, it's a pleasureto have you join me.
Thanks for having us.
Great to be here.
So where to begin?
Well, all good stories need to start.
So let's begin at your beginning.
In no particular order, share a littlebit about how you two met, what you're
(01:25):
spending the bulk of your time ontoday, and how this concept of male
allyship that you discuss in yourbooks and and in other conversations
that you have, probably also in schoolstarted taking shape along that journey.
Yeah, glad to do that.
I'll start here.
This is David.
And, you know, Brad and I met when wewere both teaching at the Naval Academy.
(01:47):
We were both professorsthere at the same time.
We overlapped for about seven years.
And I think Brad and I veryquickly recognized that we had a
connection in terms of our work,our research, and our teaching.
And as we began to explore that, Ithink we found a kind of a common area
(02:08):
of interest that we were interested in.
a lot of our own individualresearch that we do.
And so Brad is a clinical psychologist.
He's done all of his research inthe area of mentoring and career
developmental relationships and resources.
I'm a sociologist, and I've doneall my research in the area of
gender, work and family issues.
(02:29):
And one of the things that we noticed inour own organization at the time, and as
well as across many other organizations,is that, we wanted to explore.
Often the solution to what welook as as gender inequities.
So, for example, of lack of representationof women and senior leadership
positions in your organization, orjust a lack of gender parity broadly
(02:49):
in your organization, the solutionis often to focus Programming and
resources toward things like womenin leadership programs or women's
mentoring programs, which are great.
And those are much needed.
The challenge with that is that often.
or sends a signal to men thatyou don't have a place there.
(03:10):
It's not, that's not for you.
You don't have a role or a function.
And so they don't engage and they,and they don't see their place there.
The, the challenge with that is weneed, of course, all of us involved
in creating equity in the workplaceto level the playing field there.
We need men involved justas, As much as we do women in
collaboration to doing this work.
And so we love to look at this asmore of a leadership issue that
(03:33):
we all men and women as leaders.
We all have a role and a functionwhen it comes to creating that,
and we certainly saw a lot of thedisparities in our own research.
which kind of got us more curiousabout how, you know, how do we engage
more men in doing this work andhow do we level the playing field?
And that's what beganthis, this collaboration.
I will also tell you that for, forboth of us, that we both kind of have
(03:55):
personal connections to this work interms of people, women in our lives who
have shared some of their experiences.
For me, it was my wife who had aparallel career in the military.
For Brad, it was his sister again, aFollowed in his footsteps in terms of both
the Navy and in psychology and they shareda lot of their, their, the challenges,
(04:16):
the barriers, the microaggressions, thethings that they faced that really get
in touch with that sense of fairnessand justice that I think we all have.
And so I think that was a great point.
motivating factor for us as well.
And so we use that to reallyexplore that in, in our work.
And that's of course led to our firsttwo books, Athena rising, and then later
on good guys, which focuses on allyship.
(04:38):
As far as what we're focused on today,we're in the process of really thinking
about how do we take this to the nextlevel in terms of Changing systems.
We've been focused so much onindividually around people, which is
important because we need to do that.
As leaders, we need to think abouthow do we help managers and the
everyday person on the floor bea great, be a great ally in the
(05:01):
workplace and be part of the solution.
But at the same time,
we know there are everyday practices.
There are parts of our culture.
There are policies and processesin our organizations that reinforce
bias that are creating some of thesethings that are, you know, holding
us back from from getting to truegender equity in the workplace.
And so our focus right now, the workthat we're doing and really moving
(05:25):
toward our third book is is on howdo we create that in the workplace?
What are we doing?
leaders and organizations doing todaythat is having great success there.
And how can we, how can we extrapolatethat to other organizations, maybe of
different sizes, different sectors,different industries out there so
that we can all kind of share andlearn from each other in doing this.
(05:45):
We're trying to bring together allthese great best practices, which
fortunately there's, there's, thereare a lot of them, but that's also the
challenge of how do you, how do youboil that down and get that into a book?
And so we're really excitedto launch this new venture.
No,
It's good foundation for us to, tokind of the listeners, especially to
(06:05):
kind of conceptualize this conversationand where we kind of want to take it.
Brad several years ago, I attended anevent as part of women's organization
that I was on the board of, and you werepresenting on this topic of allyship,
which honestly, I hadn't really heardit spoken to so specifically before.
And one of the exercises that thatwe went through at the time was for a
(06:27):
man, which I was one of several thatwere there out of a group of about
100 or 150 people to approach a womanabout being a mentor or ally for them.
And so I was on a round tablewith another, another man.
And between the two of us, we dida terrible job in our mock session.
And it was, it was a veryintimidating thing to do.
(06:47):
And without a lot of planningfor what I was going to say.
because the exercise wasn't preplanned.
I didn't really know about it.
I came off as almost predatory and Iwish I had a different word for it,
but that's the one that I keep comingback to in, again, I hate to use the
word predatory, but I was pitching theidea of being an ally to someone who,
(07:07):
even in this exercise, immediatelyseemed to give off some concern about
the authenticity of the overture.
And there are certainly rightand wrong ways to do it.
And I probably did it.
The wrong way in that exercise.
So I'd love for you to talk aboutsome of the things that you've
heard in your experience for,for us to combat this notion.
yeah, yeah.
Well, well first of all, Derekyou know, thanks for your
(07:29):
courage and giving that a shot.
You know, I, I, I, I know that that'snot easy in these workshops to kind
of bust out your ally chops and, andgive some of these ally skills to try.
So, you know, I think thiswas probably exercise around,
Hey, if I see a high talent.
woman in my organization, andthere are probably lots of them.
(07:51):
How do I go about initiating adevelopmental relationship conversation?
And, and Derek, I'm going to give youa different word other than predatory.
I think, I think it can sometimescome off as a little creepy.
Maybe that's a little softer thanpredatory, but you know, I, and
I think it's natural, but men mayshow up and say something like this.
(08:13):
I'd like to mentor you.
Right.
And I just use my creepyvoice, which you never should.
But I think, I think we can get it wrongwhen we do this offer without any context.
Right.
She, of course, has no idea.
What are you talking about?
Where did this come from?
It's quite.
Different to sort of come alongsideand build in some affirmation, make it
(08:37):
authentic and say, Hey, you know, I sawyou do that talk last week in the meeting.
I thought it was really great.
And I was thinking to myself.
We're really lucky thatwe got to hire you.
And I was also thinking, Ihope we can keep you on board.
And so, you know, if you ever just want totalk about next steps in the organization,
(08:59):
what that might look like if there's anyway I can support or amplify that I've
got an open door, feel free to drop by.
Right?
That's a little different, right?
It doesn't have the creepy vibe.
It's an offer, but there's context to it.
And I'm able to convey to her someof what I already admire about her
(09:20):
performance and the way she shows up.
And now it's over to her, right?
To decide if she wantsto take me up on that.
I think that feels different.
I don't think it feels uncomfortable.
And.
You know, now it's, it's up toher, but I think most people
would probably take me up.
If I was a senior person in thecompany, I think they'd drop by.
(09:40):
So that's maybe just anexample of how that might look.
One other example, Dave and I, you know,often encourage men to build what we
call their GQ, their gender intelligence.
And I think when it comes toallyship, it's really important
not to put all the work on women.
To educate you about what theyexperience in the workplace.
(10:01):
So how about self educating, listento some great podcasts like this one,
learn about some of the headwindswomen encounter, and then go to some
of those trusted colleagues that youhave who happened to be women and
just say, Hey, I was in this session.
I learned about this.
And I'm really curious.
if this is going on here or ifthere are things I am missing and
(10:23):
would it be okay if I asked youabout some of your experiences here?
So Dave and I call this the ask toask, you know, I think that kind
of overture really conveys yourcuriosity, your interest, your humility.
And I think a lot of people arewilling to share with you about.
What they may be encounteringin the workplace at you
(10:45):
as a majority male or not.
So that's just anotherkind of contextualized way
to begin a conversation.
You are both incredible presenters.
The topic is awesome.
And, and, and I can't help but wonder,there must have been a few times, maybe
in the early stages of, of talking aboutthis, where the conversation landed poorly
(11:06):
or awkwardly, you know, in a room oryou got a very unexpected response from
a group of people around male allyship.
Am I wrong in thinking this?
Or or is, or is that something youcan talk about a little bit more?
you're not wrong at all.
And it's probably no surprise,but it often comes in more
majority male audiences.
(11:28):
And, and there could be, you know, itreally comes in the form of often some
pushback or at least some very, very indepth questioning about the validity or
what we're really talking about here.
And I think that.
You know, when we first starteddoing this work, just to be very,
very honest and open about this, Ithink, you know, early on, that was
(11:50):
one of those kind of fears, right?
Of, of, you don't want to bein that audience where you're
going to get all the pushback.
I think what we learned along the wayis that we, we really do want people
to push back and in areas that thatthey don't understand or they're not
comfortable with or they have other ideas.
Because this gives us an opportunityto engage in the conversation around
(12:12):
why we think this is important orto understand different ways and
perspectives of thinking about this.
And I think that's very helpful.
And so something that may have startedout to be very uncomfortable in dealing
with I think we quickly recognize thatthis was actually very helpful, and we
do want people to ask the hard questionsor the maybe what may seem like a very
uncomfortable question or pushing backon some of the concepts that we have and
(12:38):
about why this is true, or, you know,and For example zero sum beliefs are one
of those things that we often encounterwith again, a lot of majority identities
certainly with a lot of white men.
And, and that, you know, somehow byadvancing another group like women, that
somehow men are going to lose in, inthat and not understanding maybe the, the
(12:59):
perspective of understanding that, well.
You know, businesses and organizationsand people all tend to advance and
to gain more when we when we expandthe pie and doing it this way.
And so one, there's a lot more init for your organization and your
business, no matter what that is.
But two, there's more to be learnedand to be gained individually for
(13:19):
you as a person and as a leader.
When we diversify and we and we increasethe again, The gender equity within
the workplace and make it a placewhere again, everybody can thrive.
The other thing is that policies andpractices that we end up changing,
for example, more men today,especially as we think about younger
generations of men entering theworkplace have expectations about.
(13:41):
being more involved parentsand partners at home.
And so they're looking for aworkplace that's supportive of that.
And so again, as we begin to normalizethings like caregiving and who we are as
caregivers in the workplace, that again,tends to be associated more with women.
Well, if that becomes morenormalized, then it's acceptable
for men to be doing that as well.
(14:01):
And so again, we can be gainingand lots of other ways that people
are looking for, maybe not so eagerto talk about in different ways.
And let me add one more, Derek.
And that is the otherpart of the audience.
It's often there when Dave andI are speaking and that's women.
I think that we have encounteredpushback at times from women.
(14:23):
And I think initially we werea little surprised by that.
Like, Hey, we're women.
We're trying to be part of thesolution here on gender equity.
What's the deal.
And I think we had to learn some humilityaround how women can experience this.
If men sort of bud in to, youknow, maybe it's a women's ERG or
a women's conference, you know,these are safe spaces historically
(14:46):
for women to get together, sharewhat they're going through.
Collaborate with each other.
These have felt like, you know, Ithink almost sacred spots for women
to have one place free of, youknow, sexism and microaggressions.
So when men show up, understandably, somewomen can, you know, feel put off by that.
And I think we all have to showup with some real humility.
(15:09):
You know, I hope that we can getinvited in because, you know, the
World Bank estimates we've got roughly.
200 years to close the gender pay gapand other inequities in the workplace
at our current rate of progress.
We're not going to get there quicklyunless men start leaning in, but how
we collaborate with women mattersis cannot come off as intrusive.
(15:33):
It can't come off asrescuing and white knighting.
So men who show up in this space needto be collaborative, need to listen
and need to ask women Hey, what do youneed from me or how can I be helpful?
Work.
You've got a third book coming out,which you talked about a little bit
more of a systemic look at the topic.
(15:55):
How much work are you guys doing at a withcorporations specifically on this topic?
Or is it just books andspeaking engagements?
Help me understand that a little bit.
Yeah, great question.
I can mention a few things, Dave,and I'm sure you'll think of others.
You know, we do do the keynotesand the speaking for sure.
(16:15):
But I think more and more, Derek,we're doing, I think organizations are
interested in not just the keynote,which can be inspirational and give
kind of a level set for everybody intheir organization about, Why allyship,
what's the business and moral case?
Why are we talking about this?
What's in it for everybody?
And here are some tactics.
(16:36):
More organizations are interestedin, Hey, how do we upskill?
So Dave and I find ourselves doingmore workshops and, you know,
those are both workshops with men.
These can be men insenior leadership roles.
They can be men writ large, but theseare men who are leaning into partnering
with women in the organization.
to really be better alliesfor inclusion and equity.
(17:00):
And I think a lot of men believe in this.
That's what we find.
They just often don't know what to do.
So that's really thesolution that we're after.
How do we upskill people, bring them in,let them have collaborative conversations,
kind of like you, Derek, at thatworkshop you attended, let's practice,
you know, some of the micro skills.
So we do that with men.
(17:20):
We also do it with mixed gender audience.
And I think I don't want to speak forDave, but I think for both of us, that's
really kind of our favorite when we cantalk about gender collaboration broadly,
and then let both men and women andnon binary colleagues engage in these
conversations and practice moments.
(17:41):
It's the, the learning is so rich whenyou're doing that at a table with.
Colleagues who don't look like you.
So the skill building workshops, andthen interestingly, we've been pulled
into doing a lot of sponsoring work.
I think a lot of organizations are saying,Hey, the mentoring thing's important,
and Dave and I do a lot of that as well,but we really want to get to advocacy.
(18:05):
We're not going to close this gap until.
Men, especially start getting comfortablewith loudly sponsoring, loudly advocating
for women, becoming their raving fan.
And so we want to put resources into that.
So we've been involved in setting up andlaunching a number of sponsoring programs
across gender, but Dave, anything else?
(18:27):
Come to mind.
Yeah, I think that covers most of it.
A lot of it tends to be focused onmore kind of cultural shift in the
organization as well and making it aplace where it's not only safe to talk
about some of these topics, but encouragedto share and to talk about what's the
challenges that people are facing.
I think we're we're thewe're really looking to move.
(18:50):
In the coming years is really gettingback into the organizations to think
about their specific practices, right?
What are the structural thingsthat need to change right before
we could have lasting change?
And we can we can create change formany people, lots of people, as opposed
to just these one on one encountersthat we're focused on right now.
You both spent a fair amountof time at the Naval Academy,
(19:12):
and this is not a question thatI gave you advance warning on.
I'm curious if.
Being in that institution, thatenvironment advanced some of these.
Thoughts in a way that you maynot have been able to advance them
in a strictly corporate setting.
, I'm not even sure thatwas an actual question.
That's more of a statement,but like, is, is there a there
(19:34):
there in that idea or, or not?
is the Naval Institute a placewhere you can kind of think about
things a little bit differently andmaybe apply them in, I shouldn't
say the real world, but a differentworld, you know, outside of that?
That is an interesting question.
You know, I think the the militarycontext in that it's a again
longstanding, very traditional.
(19:56):
Hypermasculine institution and professionpresents a lot of similarities as
it turns out to other professions.
So as you think about medicine and,and law, for example, there's a lot of
commonality and even academia broadly.
And again, the Naval Academy iskind of that blend between the
(20:16):
academic world and and the military.
So we get two professions you know, ingetting the best or the worst of, and
both of those as you think about it.
So I think that it did provide thecontext for us in our, our, our work.
Our own experiences having been aroundthe military for so long to think about
how things work or don't work and,and how these would apply and some
(20:39):
of the things that we've encountered.
I think it, I think it certainlyinformed a lot of the questions that
we had as we began doing the researchand how we were going to explore this.
And and I think it alsoequipped us in understanding
how, again, a group of people.
focused on very, again, very missionpurpose focused group, right?
(21:01):
The military and peoplefocused on being leaders.
Leadership is important, right?
It's a critical part ofwho we are in the military.
So I think that gave us that contextin a way to talk to audiences in other
professions and other industries andother types of occupations out there.
They're different.
And I think that's one of the challengesis finding the nuanced differences of
(21:23):
what can I leverage in the culture ofthis occupation or profession that's
different than maybe the military oranother, maybe the legal profession.
And use that to your advantage.
Because again, I do think there aredifferences in the cultures within
these different professions that allowsyou to leverage different things.
And you should, and youshould look for that.
(21:47):
I think two other thingscome to mind for me, Derek.
I mean, number one, one of theinspirations for our first book,
Athena rising was these women weworked with at the Naval Academy.
These incredibly inspirational,incredibly talented and tough.
Young women who are preparing to golead sailors and Marines in combat.
(22:08):
Right.
When they graduate, I think, you know,our sense was if more men around the
country could engage with some ofthese women, I think we could solve
for gender inequity much more quicklybecause it would so shift their
mindset on women and their capability.
And I just think it would builda whole different framework for.
(22:30):
A lot of men who maybe are sufferingfrom some real embedded gender
bias, they don't understand fully.
The other thing about the militaryis, you know, we have the luxury in
the military of making this, as Davesaid, a mission driven organization.
So when the four star admiral,who's a CNO says, make it so we
(22:50):
are going to incorporate womeninto this specialty, Do it.
You know, those are yourmarching orders, right?
And everyone falls into line.
This is about the mission and weknow we're gonna be better and
stronger if we get this right.
So people, people fall into line andI think, I think that's a luxury a
lot of organizations don't have, andthere's something valuable about that.
(23:13):
Well, we've talked a little bitabout the, the unfamiliar territory.
This topic is, amongst others, to men,they're a minefield, they're full of
trapdoors, vernacular that you get, getsthrown around that you don't understand,
even references to pioneers, femalepioneers that are doing amazing things
that men just don't naturally see.
(23:35):
They're not around it nearly as much.
They're not part of thesesacred circles where those
conversations happen more naturally.
Do you have any advice?
Just quick advice for a guy out there.
It's like, all right, Ireally would like to lean in.
I'm a little nervous or I'm a lot nervous.
Where do I start?
Yeah.
Yeah.
The boy there's so much here, youknow, Dave and I, in our first
(23:55):
book Athena rising described thisas reluctant male syndrome, right?
There's so many things that make usmen uncomfortable with leaning into
this idea or the topic of allyshipreally, frankly, just anxious about
close relationships with women.
Maybe it's mentoring.
Maybe it's friendship.
Men are reluctant and there are differentingredients, you know, maybe I don't
(24:19):
want to step in it, get it wrong.
Maybe I'm afraid of gossip or rumors.
If I start mentoring a juniorwoman, maybe I've got implicit bias.
So I see women as nice, butnot really leadership material.
You know, maybe I'mafraid of getting me too.
I put that in, in quotations.
A lot of false narratives around Me Toothat have allowed men to sort of avoid
(24:42):
women post Me Too you know, with thefalse narrative that women are dangerous.
I will just tell you as a clinicalpsychologist, and I spend a lot of
time reminding men of this, there'sonly one cure for anxiety and
that includes anxiety about women.
And it's called exposure therapy.
More engagement, more interaction, morelunches, more coffee, more mentoring.
(25:06):
Don't make that her problem.
You know, if you're feeling theanxiety, you need to address that
yourself because your organizationis going to be held back.
If you don't lean in some otheringredients for overcoming this, get
comfortable being uncomfortable, right?
You know, a lot of this is new to you.
That's fine.
You need to take the first step andstart showing up at maybe it's the
(25:28):
women's ERG or other gender events.
Start learning start having moreconversations with female colleagues.
When you step in it, when you get itwrong, when you learn something, share
that with other people, you know,maybe other men say, here's, I really
got this wrong today in a meeting.
I got feedback about it.
I had no idea I was doing this.
(25:50):
I'm sharing this with youin a spirit of humility.
Maybe, maybe you canlearn from my mistake.
And I think I'm betterfor having learned that.
So those are just a few ideas.
Well I've asked you both a bunch ofquestions that you've been so thoughtful
about answering and the final part ofour podcast is me flipping the script a
(26:12):
little bit and throwing it to you guysto ask me a question which I don't know
what it is and so I'll do my very best totry not to step in that trap door myself.
So I'll let you have at it.
Okay.
Well, well, Derek, it won't shock you.
I got to follow up my last comment byjust asking you, you know, have you,
(26:32):
have you had one of those experiencethat Dave and I have experienced almost
every month in the last 12 years whereyou kind of got something wrong maybe in
the space of relationships with women.
To be an ally.
, maybe in a meeting you were,you did something or said
(26:52):
something that didn't land well.
Was there an example, you know,something come to mind and then
how did you pivot from that?
How did you learn from it?
How did you recover?
Because often these are sortof epiphany moments for men.
So I just wonder, isthere something for you?
Well, I'd be lying if I said it doesn'thappen often enough to be dangerous.
(27:15):
Like I, I can't, I can't giveyou a specific example right now.
Maybe I don't want to on air.
But it happens.
And I think the important thingthat you talked about was like
being in a comfortable enoughplace where you could actually.
Acknowledge it again.
Share it with somebody.
Share it ideally directly withthe person, in my opinion, who
(27:35):
maybe did take something thewrong way or find what you said
uncomfortable or whatever it might be.
Like, I think the important thingis to not brush it under a rug.
Because then you can't be better for it.
You know, I first started my journeyon being part of women's organizations
(27:56):
about 10 years ago when I was askedto be the only man on the board of a
women's organization called Watermarkand being the first man in the door
was really exciting really daunting.
And I found myself in thefirst several board meetings.
Not expressing my opinion on much anddoing a whole lot of listening, which I
don't think is a bad idea, by the way.
(28:17):
But my very first introduction to thatorganization was one of the board members
coming up to me, up to me saying, Derek,I did not vote for you to be on the board.
Hmm.
I thought to myself, well, thisis, this is a crazy introduction.
How am I going to fix this?
And my response to her was,well, it will be up to me to
(28:37):
to make you change your mind.
And so, you know, I, I take that intoconsideration when I'm having these
reflective conversations with peopleit's up to me to make you change your
mind about the things that I'm saying.
It's up to me to make myself a betterresource, a better mentor, a better
advisor, and a better person in general.
So that was very long winded.
(28:59):
I love that example.
Yep.
Well, and so a little commercial forthe two of you, how do our listeners get
ahold of YouTube for speaking engagementsfor, for anything related to this topic,
other than obviously going to yourfavorite bookstore and picking up a
couple of books and a third on the way?
Yeah, you can.
I think the easiest way is just to go toour website and that's workplace allies.
(29:23):
That's all one all one wordworkplace allies dot com.
And you can find out the lateston what we're up to and reach out.
And we can certainly talk aboutthings if there's ways you would
like to collaborate with us.
Fantastic.
Well on behalf of everybody who'slistening, I thank you for the
great work that you're doing.
You're two incredible men, leadersfathers and resources to our country.
(29:46):
In addition to being greatsociologists and psychologists.
So thank you for your time.
I appreciate it very much, and Ihope you guys have a fantastic day.
Thanks,
Thanks,
Derek.
Thank you so much for taking the time tolisten to the DeWinter Difference podcast.
If you like this episode,head to dewintergroup.
com backslash DeWinter hyphen differenceto catch future episodes and share your
thoughts, comments, or suggestions,and make sure to connect with us
(30:10):
on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Twitter.
This podcast is producedby the DeWinter Group.
The leading recruiting firmin the Bay Area and beyond.
We help top companies and peoplereach their fullest potential through
world class accounting, finance,and technology recruiting services.
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