Have you ever struggled to have a conversation about mental health in the workplace? It can be hard for both employees and leaders to know how to have these conversations. In this episode, Amanda Morin talks to her co-host Talli Dolge, who is joined by her colleague Dr. Trina Clayeux, the CEO of Give an Hour. Talli and Trina share the work they're doing with a Mental Health Pod Squad made up of representatives from multiple nonprofits to change these conversations by approaching them through the lens of hope.
They dig into how stigma can play out at work and share details about the Hope Continuum Model and the Mental Health Pod Squad's Hope Continuum Model, a framework designed to empower employees and employers to move from talking about problems to focusing on solutions and giving people hope.
The chat highlights how important it is to talk plainly about mental health and to take everyone's unique experiences into account so that everyone can understand and get help when they need it. Listen in to hear more about creating workplaces where everyone feels supported and optimistic.
Takeaways
-
Transformational thinking and a collaborative effort are needed to make significant changes in addressing mental health in the workplace.
-
The Mental Health Pod Squad is a collaborative group of mental health nonprofits working together to create change and innovation.
-
Leadership and innovation are crucial in the field of mental health to address the diverse needs of individuals and communities.
-
The Hope Continuum Model aims to flatten stigma and empower individuals in their mental health journey, providing a framework for understanding and addressing mental health in the workplace.
-
Shifting the conversation to hope can make discussions about mental health more empowering.
-
Empowering individuals to define their needs and providing choices in support can lead to more effective conversations.
-
Democratizing knowledge about mental health and avoiding stigmatizing language can create a more inclusive and supportive environment.
-
The Hope Continuum Model can be implemented in organizations to create a more hopeful and supportive workplace culture.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Empathetic Edge.
I'm Amanda Morin, and I call myself
a neurodivergent neurodiversity
consultant.
And I'm Talli Dolge, and I'm a
self-proclaimed highly anxious
leader.
Today on the podcast, we're doing
something a little different.
Talli, you're going to be more of a
guest than a host so that I can
ask you and your colleague, Dr.
Trina Clayeux about a really
(00:23):
cool mental health initiative you've
been working on for an organization
called Stand Together.
Right. So Trina
is the CEO of Give An Hour,
which provides mental health
services for individuals and
communities that are recovering from
human made trauma.
And she is one of a group of about
12 executives from
(00:43):
a lot of different organizations
working with me as a part of
what we're calling the Mental Health
Pod Squad.
Ooh, I love that name.
And if I understand
correctly, the mission of the Mental
Health Pod Squad is to create a
model that anyone can use when
they're trying to support someone in
their community or their workplace
who seems to be having a hard time
(01:05):
with anything, including mental
health.
And that model is called the Hope
Continuum?
That's exactly correct.
So before we bring Trina
into the conversation and get into
that model, I'm wondering if you can
talk in concrete terms about what
you think is broken and how we talk
about mental health now, especially
(01:25):
in the workplace.
Like what is a really
ineffective conversation around
mental health sound like?
Yeah. So I think
we need to go into the conversation
with mental health in the workplace,
knowing that a lot
of people have never talked about
mental health.
Most people are so fearful
(01:46):
of having the conversation
surrounding mental health.
I know I've watched a lot of
incredible leaders have a really
hard time just even like saying
the words mental health or, "are
you okay?" I mean, people are
having problems, like just having
conversations because they're afraid
they're going to be opening
Pandora's box.
(02:07):
So if I came into
an executive leader's office as
somebody on their leadership team
and I said, I'm not doing well,
what do you think would happen
today?
See, I'm afraid of that.
Because I think what can ultimately
happen, especially as somebody
who might not have the answers, is
(02:27):
that they start to panic.
They go into panic mode.
Like, who do I need to call?
Who needs to be involved in this
conversation? What is going to
happen? Instead of thinking about
the person who's sitting right in
front of them. You might be putting
some of your own
challenges and anxiety
onto them, which can be
extremely, extremely detrimental
(02:49):
and shut them down.
Yeah, I can totally hear that how
that would be.
I would feel shut down in a
situation like that for sure.
So let's bring Trina into the
conversation and get into the Hope
Continuum so we don't continue
having those kinds of conversations.
Hopefully.
Trina, I'm so glad you're here, and
I want to jump right in.
I'm wondering, can you describe
(03:11):
how you and Talli and the
Mental Health Pod Squad kind of
arrived at this Hope Continuum
Model?
What in your mind was the problem
you were really trying to solve for?
Yeah, absolutely.
I think when we originally got
together, I mean, Talli was really
trying to get us to think without
the confines of, like, what we
(03:31):
already know, and then just taking
that into a new space and trying to
kind of innovate off of something
else.
And it was hard.
I mean, we've like, really had to
dig deep. And we're all from
different types, you know, we serve
different customers.
So we have people who serve housing
and housing insecurity.
We have people who serve,
individuals have been harmed,
through sexual abuse and through
substance abuse.
And, I mean, it's just such a
(03:53):
variety.
And as she kept
getting us to go kind of deeper,
I think what the group really
identified as you think about the
continuum of care as it is now,
it tends to, inherently
have a, significant amount of stigma
that's built into it.
So as you go and move from,
let's say, left side to right side,
(04:13):
with left side being like education
and awareness, that's low stigma.
But as you start going up and go
into more intensive
mental health care, stigma tends
to go up.
And what we identified as being
really significant is that stigma is
a tremendous barrier for
individuals, especially individuals
who require additional
acknowledgment and recognition.
(04:34):
So you may have, like a female
veteran that has
kind of our own stigma journey, you
know, an individual of color.
There's a mental health stigma that
can go with that. So when you are
in a state,
of emotional unwellness or not
feeling yourself, it's people
that you need, it's human connection
(04:55):
you need.
And if you saying, wow, you should
go see a therapist, you are
discounting people's background
and culture and experience with
mental health and and social
experience with mental health and
the way that they show up.
But you're also telling them like,
your stuff's like way too big for
me.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And that's where the shame comes in.
I mean, this is hard enough as
(05:15):
it is if somebody is opening up
and if you just automatically
go to somebody else needs
to help you with this. You
have shamed somebody
to a level you may not even
understand, because I think maybe
we all have had experiences,
even in the workplace where
we said something and then all of a
(05:35):
sudden we're like, I need to take it
back.
Okay, so the Pod Squad identified
stigma and shame as major
barriers to getting help when you're
not doing well.
Having recognized that, where
did you go from there?
Is that where the Hope Continuum
Model comes in?
What we've done together
is create a
model that Trina
(05:56):
and I believe is like the
best thing in the whole world.
Oh it is, it is.
So the group talked and
really came up with this, I think,
just incredible way of thinking
about it. But if you think of a
continuum of hopefulness to
hopelessness and
you can identify
where you are in thinking about your
mental health and hope, and we're
(06:16):
thinking hope as a tool,
not hope as a sentiment,
and I think Talli does a really good
job of make that distinction between
hoping and wishing.
And I think that when people
initially hear hope, they think
of like more of that wishing.
It's kind of like a wishy washy
sort of sentiment.
It's like, oh, I hope that this
happens tomorrow.
Like, I hope you feel better.
I hope you feel better.
I hope this email finds you well.
(06:38):
Right.
You have no power over that.
So. Oh, right. That's that's a wish.
So what in hope, what do
we have power over,
you know, in ourselves.
Yeah.
Oh I love that distinction.
Yeah.
And so much of it is then if
you have this kind of left to right
visual, you can actually place
yourself on a hope continuum.
Where do I feel hopeful right now?
(06:58):
And I could get as specific about
if I'm I want to weight loss story.
How hopeful am I that I'm
able to be successful in whatever I
define as success?
And I could put myself on this and
what I think one of the things that
it does is it really grounds us.Where
when we have mental health
conversations, often we're talking
symptoms, we're talking sometimes
medication, we're talking maybe
(07:18):
a therapeutic intervention,
but they're not as productive of
conversations. They often get
stalled out, and we just kind of
stay in this kind of pathology based
engagement. Right.
What we're saying is there's a
dynamic way of
engaging and talking that's
productive, that has energy
to it.
And we've used the quote that
"Empowerment is the neutralizer
(07:40):
of hopelessness." And this
idea that you would be more
empowered on a continuum of hope
than you are in a continuum of care.
So let me ask you a very granular
question.
You're my leader in an organization.
(08:01):
And I say to you,
I'm not completely hopeless,
but I'm not hopeful.
What happens next?
How does this help other people help
me through this journey?
Trina has a great example of that.
Talk about your example of
how it can be done.
Well, I talked about.
(08:22):
I use one as like a more of a sexual
harassment conversation.
But let's say I am an a woman in the
workplace and someone
who is outside of my supervision,
identifies...
So this is part of the training
that goes with this and where we
want to get people to identify
what is observable about someone
else and put some words to it.
So if that person noticed, they
(08:44):
could say, "hey, Trina, you know, I
noticed you just
aren't bringing the same energy to
work. You seem kind of agitated.
You're not really talking in
meetings. You seem withdrawn." So
right there, you're identifying
some observable behaviors in
me that you're now bringing
to my attention that they are
different than my baseline.
Right.
And that's part of what we're
relying on, is that people know what
(09:04):
your baseline is, you know, when
you're at work.
And then I could ask permission,
which I think is always helpful to
do, ask permission to keep going in
a conversation. So, "I would love to
have a conversation with you because
I'm a little bit worried.
Is that okay?" And for me,
that puts it back into I'm
shifting a power differential,
whether you're my supervisor or not.
But I'm putting empowerment back
(09:25):
where it belongs. So it's much about
shifting power.
And so if that individual says yes,
you know that, that's fine of it.
You know, I'd love to talk, then I
can keep going with the conversation
to say, "Can you tell me a
little bit more about what's going
on?" And so
I can say something, you know, so
you know I'm having problems with
my supervisor?
You know, he just makes some
offhanded comments. I feel like he's
(09:46):
not really respecting my work.
And then you could ask me again
a set of questions, and one of
them could be, "hey,
I just want to make sure that I'm
showing up in this space the right
way for you.
Are you wanting me to listen, or
do you want me to help you solve a
problem?
And it's okay if you don't know the
answer to that. I just want to give
you a choice here, because I just
want to make sure that I'm attentive
(10:08):
to what you're saying." And so
and again, you don't want to ask
somebody like, what do you need from
me. Right. That's not helpful.
So I'm going to give you just two
choices.
That's exactly it.
It's also being able to open
up questions,
being able to also give them that
empowerment piece that I just want
to like point out that
she's saying you don't have to have
the answers, but I'm going to give
(10:29):
you two things and that's it.
Yeah. Yes.
And then, you know, we've got this
idea that if we can stay in this
conversation and we were thinking
like 8 to 10 minutes, how to
stay in the conversation for 8 to 10
minutes, and all of a sudden you
just start having some boundaries
around it where you're like, geez, I
could do anything for 8 to 10
minutes, right? And now we're having
a dialogue where now I know that you
(10:50):
just want me to listen while you
vent. Along the
the conversation, I think you're
always looking for your entry point
for the next kind of milestone
in the conversation.
You're moving it forward, right?
You're trying to move into a
productive conversation.
And so one of the ways
in which in that scenario,
you can think about it is
(11:10):
how hopeful are you right now
that this could have a positive
outcome for you?
Like what does that look like for
you? What does best case scenario
look like?
And I would say that my best
case scenario is I get to still work
here, I still get a paycheck.
I feel secure in
my work. I don't feel like people
think that I have caused a problem,
even though I know I didn't, but I
(11:32):
will feel like that.
And that the problem is taken care
of with the least amount of
interruption to me or
other people I work with.
And so you can help someone really
ground themselves in that hope.
Right? So they are hopeful and
they're seeing a future here.
They're seeing a future out of this.
And so I think that becomes like
really that thread that you're
(11:53):
picking up is like, okay, then what
do we need to do
to make sure that you can remain
hopeful?
Through that entire 8 to 10
minute conversation, we went
through different parts of the
continuum. You started in the
hopelessness, oh my goodness,
what's going to happen?
I don't know what I'm supposed to
do. It's you start at
(12:14):
one end of the continuum and
hopefully get to another
spot. It doesn't mean you are
hopeful in any way.
It just may mean that actually we've
moved the needle a little bit.
And that, I think, is the beauty
of how we incorporate
the Hope Continuum in that
conversation.
It also will allow you
(12:34):
to use previous knowledge
and previous experiences
to know then what
it is that you want and need.
And so thinking of a time
where you know, you, you felt
less hopeful,
you can go back into
an experience to say, okay, what did
I do then that generated hope for
me, that allowed
(12:55):
me to get the kind of support
that I needed. And maybe it was okay
that time I, you know, called my
mother and I,
joined a peer support group
that was really specific focus
on this.
Is that something that I'm going to
need this time?
So if you have more
knowledge about mental health,
resources like what it is, that
(13:17):
is the difference between getting a
peer support or getting somebody who
can ugly cry with like, whose your
person.
Or, or
is this a time when I need clinical
care? If we can democratize
that knowledge base around mental
health and not feel like, oh,
if you're not clinical, then you
can't have any knowledge beyond
this.
We can democratize knowledge to
(13:38):
people being able to use that
knowledge and use their past
experiences to make good decisions
for themselves, informed decisions
for themselves.
Then you are able to generate
the hope you need.
Part of what you're talking about
is how to make this
easy to use
across workplaces
(13:58):
and levels of empathy
and understanding and ability
to start these conversations.
And I note that because
we probably have listeners who are
like, I would have no idea how
to even open up those questions.
So what you're doing is giving them
a tool to really
make everybody
(14:19):
a help-giver.
That that right there.
And that's what we need.
We need everyone to be a help-
giver. We cannot put this on the
backs of like everything is clinical
care only.
And if you think of it that way,
it's like it is a gift.
It is an opportunity for someone to
share with you something that
they're struggling with.
And if you can establish
your role in it, it
(14:40):
will lessen your uncomfortableness.
And what you have to think of is
like the journey is the experience.
And because now you're taking the
time to connect.
Can you give me an example of how
you've used hope in your
leadership?
(15:00):
Yeah, I mean, we've, it's so funny.
So even just last two days.
We have multiple ways for our our
employees to give us feedback.
And so our last two days, we've been
doing our happy, healthy workplace
culture conversations, which is one
of our ongoing goals.
And it was how are you
hoping for something different for
yourself in this organization?
(15:21):
I feel like it brings different
conversations out, because people
felt hopeless in so many
workplace instances that
they have felt like they have
workplace traumas that they're
bringing into our work.
Right?
And I think it's beautiful when
someone trusts you enough to tell
you that there are things that
happen in the organization that are
(15:42):
very triggering for them based on
their personal experiences, their
workplace experiences.
And so how do we help
them? We talk about a lot about
empowerment, but also understanding
that empowerment means something
different to different people.
And so it's a I'm setting
up a dynamic there that doesn't
allow you to be as hopeful.
If I'm saying that that is like on
(16:02):
the continuum is to feel empowered.
So instead, we've talked more about
what what you hope for this
organization, how can we do this
together? And I think that that ends
up being the community conversation.
I didn't tell them, you need to find
more hope in this job.
Like, what are you gonna do?
Right? It was like, what have you
identified would make you happy
here and healthy here and
(16:23):
be a workplace culture you want to
be part of.
And then what can we do together?
And I'm not going to transfer it to
you. I'm going to just say, we're
going to work on this together.
And these become goals for
us to work on together because it is
very individualized.
So people brought up different
things that matter to them,
that it may not matter to your
colleague at this season in
their journey with us.
(16:44):
And so I feel like it, it does
it it allows us to identify like
who can help you on that journey.
That's wonderful.
And I hear a difference
in it's a shift in language,
right, too? There's a part where
you shift from feeling helpless
in the workplace to even
just saying you feel hopeless is
different than saying you feel
helpless, right?
(17:05):
That's an empowerment thing.
If you're helpless, you can't
move forward.
But if you're hopeless, there's
the ability to become
more hopeful.
So there's this great quote that,
"hope dies last." And I think
as long as you're somewhere
on the continuum, which means you
are here, you have the
(17:25):
ability, you have the opportunity
to become more hopeful than what
you may feel right now.
This is just being built
out. And I don't mean just I mean,
(17:46):
like, now is being built out.
How do we get this into the world?
And
who's the person who the Hope
Continuum Model starts with at an
organization?
I think if you cannot be
one person or one
entity starting this, and
I think that's why we are hoping
that bringing together a
(18:08):
collaborative group of people who
have really, really worked hard
and understand how to use this
will be the grassroots
way of starting the conversation.
You can have these conversations
not just with like your staff, but
you can have it with donors, you can
have it with your board.
We want to get this out to as many
people. I think we're having so many
(18:28):
different conversations, interesting
ones.
Trina and I, I think we try and
bring this up to anyone.
I mean, it could be, you know, we're
at the airport, you know, to some
random person like in line next
to us. But we would.
We would do that.
Well, yeah, we've been testing the
durability of the model in
these conversations.
And so I talked to like an
undersheriff.
(18:49):
And he has some really significant,
you know, crime and things happening
in this community.
And he could get into this
hope conversation deep.
And we were talking specifically
about gang involved
adults, but we talked about the
hope they have for their children,
the hope they have for their
brothers and sisters.
Right. So even if you couldn't
(19:10):
get someone to, like, totally
get on board with seeing themselves
in hopefulness, and we were talking
about a community that there isn't a
lot of things to be hopeful about.
Yeah.
When you made that
change, you could definitely
tell, like, oh, we could have that
conversation.
Sometimes you're just you're coming
in backwards or you're backing into
difficult conversations through
(19:31):
the way that it fits for that
person.
And I'm just a firm believer that if
you listen to people long enough,
you will start to see
what matters to them, and
that is kind of the levers.
And so that's why I find the
durability of it is working, and
that people are responding who are
coming from communities that have
typically been left out of the
mental health conversation.
(19:52):
And I think to me, that is one of
the that is probably the most
exciting thing, is that the
current continuum of care is for
certain people with certain economic
status, with certain access,
with certain,
social norms
and...
Great.
But what about everybody else?
(20:12):
And that's why I think the continuum
of hope makes it accessible.
It makes it, feel
like something that's really about
you, and it puts you in
charge, and you're no longer
just subject to
someone else moving you across a
continuum of what you need.
You are actually there accessing
what you want and need, and then the
community is helping you build it.
(20:34):
I love that.
I love that you talk about different
entry points that, you know, as a,
as an educator, that makes me super
happy because there are always
different entry points.
And I think, you know, I also
work in the disability community and
you're describing the "nothing about
us without us." Right?
That is that's the
phrase.
Say it again, nothing.
Nothing about us without us.
(20:56):
And I love that.
That is beautiful.
Trina, thank you so much for joining
us. This has been such a great
conversation.
I really appreciate your time and
your thoughts.
Thank you for the interest.
And I feel more hopeful.
I know.
Me too.
Me too.
For more information on Talli's work
(21:16):
with Dr. Trina Clayeux and the
Mental Health Pod Squad, check out
our show notes.
And we want to know what you'd want
to see change in the workplace.
You can email us at
Empatheticedge@gmail.com.
If you like what you heard today,
why not send a link to a colleague
or friend or someone who really
needs to hear it.
And please rate and review us.
(21:39):
This podcast is a project of the
Empathetic and Intentional
Leadership Academy.
The Empathetic Edge is produced by
Julie Subrin. Jon Morin
wrote the theme music and is our mix
engineer.
To learn more about The Empathetic
edge, visit us at
www.TheEmpatheticEdge.com.
We look forward to seeing you next
time.
Welcome to the Empathetic Edge.
I'm Amanda Morin, and I call myself
a neurodivergent neurodiversity
consultant.
And I'm Talli Dolge, and I'm a
self-proclaimed highly anxious
leader.
Today on the podcast, we're doing
something a little different.
Talli, you're going to be more of a
guest than a host so that I can
ask you and your colleague, Dr.
Trina Clayeux about a really
(00:23):
cool mental health initiative you've
been working on for an organization
called Stand Together.
Right. So Trina
is the CEO of Give An Hour,
which provides mental health
services for individuals and
communities that are recovering from
human made trauma.
And she is one of a group of about
12 executives from
(00:43):
a lot of different organizations
working with me as a part of
what we're calling the Mental Health
Pod Squad.
Ooh, I love that name.
And if I understand
correctly, the mission of the Mental
Health Pod Squad is to create a
model that anyone can use when
they're trying to support someone in
their community or their workplace
who seems to be having a hard time
(01:05):
with anything, including mental
health.
And that model is called the Hope
Continuum?
That's exactly correct.
So before we bring Trina
into the conversation and get into
that model, I'm wondering if you can
talk in concrete terms about what
you think is broken and how we talk
about mental health now, especially
(01:25):
in the workplace.
Like what is a really
ineffective conversation around
mental health sound like?
Yeah. So I think
we need to go into the conversation
with mental health in the workplace,
knowing that a lot
of people have never talked about
mental health.
Most people are so fearful
(01:46):
of having the conversation
surrounding mental health.
I know I've watched a lot of
incredible leaders have a really
hard time just even like saying
the words mental health or, "are
you okay?" I mean, people are
having problems, like just having
conversations because they're afraid
they're going to be opening
Pandora's box.
(02:07):
So if I came into
an executive leader's office as
somebody on their leadership team
and I said, I'm not doing well,
what do you think would happen
today?
See, I'm afraid of that.
Because I think what can ultimately
happen, especially as somebody
who might not have the answers, is
(02:27):
that they start to panic.
They go into panic mode.
Like, who do I need to call?
Who needs to be involved in this
conversation? What is going to
happen? Instead of thinking about
the person who's sitting right in
front of them. You might be putting
some of your own
challenges and anxiety
onto them, which can be
extremely, extremely detrimental
(02:49):
and shut them down.
Yeah, I can totally hear that how
that would be.
I would feel shut down in a
situation like that for sure.
So let's bring Trina into the
conversation and get into the Hope
Continuum so we don't continue
having those kinds of conversations.
Hopefully.
Trina, I'm so glad you're here, and
I want to jump right in.
I'm wondering, can you describe
(03:11):
how you and Talli and the
Mental Health Pod Squad kind of
arrived at this Hope Continuum
Model?
What in your mind was the problem
you were really trying to solve for?
Yeah, absolutely.
I think when we originally got
together, I mean, Talli was really
trying to get us to think without
the confines of, like, what we
(03:31):
already know, and then just taking
that into a new space and trying to
kind of innovate off of something
else.
And it was hard.
I mean, we've like, really had to
dig deep. And we're all from
different types, you know, we serve
different customers.
So we have people who serve housing
and housing insecurity.
We have people who serve,
individuals have been harmed,
through sexual abuse and through
substance abuse.
And, I mean, it's just such a
(03:53):
variety.
And as she kept
getting us to go kind of deeper,
I think what the group really
identified as you think about the
continuum of care as it is now,
it tends to, inherently
have a, significant amount of stigma
that's built into it.
So as you go and move from,
let's say, left side to right side,
(04:13):
with left side being like education
and awareness, that's low stigma.
But as you start going up and go
into more intensive
mental health care, stigma tends
to go up.
And what we identified as being
really significant is that stigma is
a tremendous barrier for
individuals, especially individuals
who require additional
acknowledgment and recognition.
(04:34):
So you may have, like a female
veteran that has
kind of our own stigma journey, you
know, an individual of color.
There's a mental health stigma that
can go with that. So when you are
in a state,
of emotional unwellness or not
feeling yourself, it's people
that you need, it's human connection
(04:55):
you need.
And if you saying, wow, you should
go see a therapist, you are
discounting people's background
and culture and experience with
mental health and and social
experience with mental health and
the way that they show up.
But you're also telling them like,
your stuff's like way too big for
me.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And that's where the shame comes in.
I mean, this is hard enough as
(05:15):
it is if somebody is opening up
and if you just automatically
go to somebody else needs
to help you with this. You
have shamed somebody
to a level you may not even
understand, because I think maybe
we all have had experiences,
even in the workplace where
we said something and then all of a
(05:35):
sudden we're like, I need to take it
back.
Okay, so the Pod Squad identified
stigma and shame as major
barriers to getting help when you're
not doing well.
Having recognized that, where
did you go from there?
Is that where the Hope Continuum
Model comes in?
What we've done together
is create a
model that Trina
(05:56):
and I believe is like the
best thing in the whole world.
Oh it is, it is.
So the group talked and
really came up with this, I think,
just incredible way of thinking
about it. But if you think of a
continuum of hopefulness to
hopelessness and
you can identify
where you are in thinking about your
mental health and hope, and we're
(06:16):
thinking hope as a tool,
not hope as a sentiment,
and I think Talli does a really good
job of make that distinction between
hoping and wishing.
And I think that when people
initially hear hope, they think
of like more of that wishing.
It's kind of like a wishy washy
sort of sentiment.
It's like, oh, I hope that this
happens tomorrow.
Like, I hope you feel better.
I hope you feel better.
I hope this email finds you well.
(06:38):
Right.
You have no power over that.
So. Oh, right. That's that's a wish.
So what in hope, what do
we have power over,
you know, in ourselves.
Yeah.
Oh I love that distinction.
Yeah.
And so much of it is then if
you have this kind of left to right
visual, you can actually place
yourself on a hope continuum.
Where do I feel hopeful right now?
(06:58):
And I could get as specific about
if I'm I want to weight loss story.
How hopeful am I that I'm
able to be successful in whatever I
define as success?
And I could put myself on this and
what I think one of the things that
it does is it really grounds us.Where
when we have mental health
conversations, often we're talking
symptoms, we're talking sometimes
medication, we're talking maybe
(07:18):
a therapeutic intervention,
but they're not as productive of
conversations. They often get
stalled out, and we just kind of
stay in this kind of pathology based
engagement. Right.
What we're saying is there's a
dynamic way of
engaging and talking that's
productive, that has energy
to it.
And we've used the quote that
"Empowerment is the neutralizer
(07:40):
of hopelessness." And this
idea that you would be more
empowered on a continuum of hope
than you are in a continuum of care.
So let me ask you a very granular
question.
You're my leader in an organization.
(08:01):
And I say to you,
I'm not completely hopeless,
but I'm not hopeful.
What happens next?
How does this help other people help
me through this journey?
Trina has a great example of that.
Talk about your example of
how it can be done.
Well, I talked about.
(08:22):
I use one as like a more of a sexual
harassment conversation.
But let's say I am an a woman in the
workplace and someone
who is outside of my supervision,
identifies...
So this is part of the training
that goes with this and where we
want to get people to identify
what is observable about someone
else and put some words to it.
So if that person noticed, they
(08:44):
could say, "hey, Trina, you know, I
noticed you just
aren't bringing the same energy to
work. You seem kind of agitated.
You're not really talking in
meetings. You seem withdrawn." So
right there, you're identifying
some observable behaviors in
me that you're now bringing
to my attention that they are
different than my baseline.
Right.
And that's part of what we're
relying on, is that people know what
(09:04):
your baseline is, you know, when
you're at work.
And then I could ask permission,
which I think is always helpful to
do, ask permission to keep going in
a conversation. So, "I would love to
have a conversation with you because
I'm a little bit worried.
Is that okay?" And for me,
that puts it back into I'm
shifting a power differential,
whether you're my supervisor or not.
But I'm putting empowerment back
(09:25):
where it belongs. So it's much about
shifting power.
And so if that individual says yes,
you know that, that's fine of it.
You know, I'd love to talk, then I
can keep going with the conversation
to say, "Can you tell me a
little bit more about what's going
on?" And so
I can say something, you know, so
you know I'm having problems with
my supervisor?
You know, he just makes some
offhanded comments. I feel like he's
(09:46):
not really respecting my work.
And then you could ask me again
a set of questions, and one of
them could be, "hey,
I just want to make sure that I'm
showing up in this space the right
way for you.
Are you wanting me to listen, or
do you want me to help you solve a
problem?
And it's okay if you don't know the
answer to that. I just want to give
you a choice here, because I just
want to make sure that I'm attentive
(10:08):
to what you're saying." And so
and again, you don't want to ask
somebody like, what do you need from
me. Right. That's not helpful.
So I'm going to give you just two
choices.
That's exactly it.
It's also being able to open
up questions,
being able to also give them that
empowerment piece that I just want
to like point out that
she's saying you don't have to have
the answers, but I'm going to give
(10:29):
you two things and that's it.
Yeah. Yes.
And then, you know, we've got this
idea that if we can stay in this
conversation and we were thinking
like 8 to 10 minutes, how to
stay in the conversation for 8 to 10
minutes, and all of a sudden you
just start having some boundaries
around it where you're like, geez, I
could do anything for 8 to 10
minutes, right? And now we're having
a dialogue where now I know that you
(10:50):
just want me to listen while you
vent. Along the
the conversation, I think you're
always looking for your entry point
for the next kind of milestone
in the conversation.
You're moving it forward, right?
You're trying to move into a
productive conversation.
And so one of the ways
in which in that scenario,
you can think about it is
(11:10):
how hopeful are you right now
that this could have a positive
outcome for you?
Like what does that look like for
you? What does best case scenario
look like?
And I would say that my best
case scenario is I get to still work
here, I still get a paycheck.
I feel secure in
my work. I don't feel like people
think that I have caused a problem,
even though I know I didn't, but I
(11:32):
will feel like that.
And that the problem is taken care
of with the least amount of
interruption to me or
other people I work with.
And so you can help someone really
ground themselves in that hope.
Right? So they are hopeful and
they're seeing a future here.
They're seeing a future out of this.
And so I think that becomes like
really that thread that you're
(11:53):
picking up is like, okay, then what
do we need to do
to make sure that you can remain
hopeful?
Through that entire 8 to 10
minute conversation, we went
through different parts of the
continuum. You started in the
hopelessness, oh my goodness,
what's going to happen?
I don't know what I'm supposed to
do. It's you start at
(12:14):
one end of the continuum and
hopefully get to another
spot. It doesn't mean you are
hopeful in any way.
It just may mean that actually we've
moved the needle a little bit.
And that, I think, is the beauty
of how we incorporate
the Hope Continuum in that
conversation.
It also will allow you
(12:34):
to use previous knowledge
and previous experiences
to know then what
it is that you want and need.
And so thinking of a time
where you know, you, you felt
less hopeful,
you can go back into
an experience to say, okay, what did
I do then that generated hope for
me, that allowed
(12:55):
me to get the kind of support
that I needed. And maybe it was okay
that time I, you know, called my
mother and I,
joined a peer support group
that was really specific focus
on this.
Is that something that I'm going to
need this time?
So if you have more
knowledge about mental health,
resources like what it is, that
(13:17):
is the difference between getting a
peer support or getting somebody who
can ugly cry with like, whose your
person.
Or, or
is this a time when I need clinical
care? If we can democratize
that knowledge base around mental
health and not feel like, oh,
if you're not clinical, then you
can't have any knowledge beyond
this.
We can democratize knowledge to
(13:38):
people being able to use that
knowledge and use their past
experiences to make good decisions
for themselves, informed decisions
for themselves.
Then you are able to generate
the hope you need.
Part of what you're talking about
is how to make this
easy to use
across workplaces
(13:58):
and levels of empathy
and understanding and ability
to start these conversations.
And I note that because
we probably have listeners who are
like, I would have no idea how
to even open up those questions.
So what you're doing is giving them
a tool to really
make everybody
(14:19):
a help-giver.
That that right there.
And that's what we need.
We need everyone to be a help-
giver. We cannot put this on the
backs of like everything is clinical
care only.
And if you think of it that way,
it's like it is a gift.
It is an opportunity for someone to
share with you something that
they're struggling with.
And if you can establish
your role in it, it
(14:40):
will lessen your uncomfortableness.
And what you have to think of is
like the journey is the experience.
And because now you're taking the
time to connect.
Can you give me an example of how
you've used hope in your
leadership?
(15:00):
Yeah, I mean, we've, it's so funny.
So even just last two days.
We have multiple ways for our our
employees to give us feedback.
And so our last two days, we've been
doing our happy, healthy workplace
culture conversations, which is one
of our ongoing goals.
And it was how are you
hoping for something different for
yourself in this organization?
(15:21):
I feel like it brings different
conversations out, because people
felt hopeless in so many
workplace instances that
they have felt like they have
workplace traumas that they're
bringing into our work.
Right?
And I think it's beautiful when
someone trusts you enough to tell
you that there are things that
happen in the organization that are
(15:42):
very triggering for them based on
their personal experiences, their
workplace experiences.
And so how do we help
them? We talk about a lot about
empowerment, but also understanding
that empowerment means something
different to different people.
And so it's a I'm setting
up a dynamic there that doesn't
allow you to be as hopeful.
If I'm saying that that is like on
(16:02):
the continuum is to feel empowered.
So instead, we've talked more about
what what you hope for this
organization, how can we do this
together? And I think that that ends
up being the community conversation.
I didn't tell them, you need to find
more hope in this job.
Like, what are you gonna do?
Right? It was like, what have you
identified would make you happy
here and healthy here and
(16:23):
be a workplace culture you want to
be part of.
And then what can we do together?
And I'm not going to transfer it to
you. I'm going to just say, we're
going to work on this together.
And these become goals for
us to work on together because it is
very individualized.
So people brought up different
things that matter to them,
that it may not matter to your
colleague at this season in
their journey with us.
(16:44):
And so I feel like it, it does
it it allows us to identify like
who can help you on that journey.
That's wonderful.
And I hear a difference
in it's a shift in language,
right, too? There's a part where
you shift from feeling helpless
in the workplace to even
just saying you feel hopeless is
different than saying you feel
helpless, right?
(17:05):
That's an empowerment thing.
If you're helpless, you can't
move forward.
But if you're hopeless, there's
the ability to become
more hopeful.
So there's this great quote that,
"hope dies last." And I think
as long as you're somewhere
on the continuum, which means you
are here, you have the
(17:25):
ability, you have the opportunity
to become more hopeful than what
you may feel right now.
This is just being built
out. And I don't mean just I mean,
(17:46):
like, now is being built out.
How do we get this into the world?
And
who's the person who the Hope
Continuum Model starts with at an
organization?
I think if you cannot be
one person or one
entity starting this, and
I think that's why we are hoping
that bringing together a
(18:08):
collaborative group of people who
have really, really worked hard
and understand how to use this
will be the grassroots
way of starting the conversation.
You can have these conversations
not just with like your staff, but
you can have it with donors, you can
have it with your board.
We want to get this out to as many
people. I think we're having so many
(18:28):
different conversations, interesting
ones.
Trina and I, I think we try and
bring this up to anyone.
I mean, it could be, you know, we're
at the airport, you know, to some
random person like in line next
to us. But we would.
We would do that.
Well, yeah, we've been testing the
durability of the model in
these conversations.
And so I talked to like an
undersheriff.
(18:49):
And he has some really significant,
you know, crime and things happening
in this community.
And he could get into this
hope conversation deep.
And we were talking specifically
about gang involved
adults, but we talked about the
hope they have for their children,
the hope they have for their
brothers and sisters.
Right. So even if you couldn't
(19:10):
get someone to, like, totally
get on board with seeing themselves
in hopefulness, and we were talking
about a community that there isn't a
lot of things to be hopeful about.
Yeah.
When you made that
change, you could definitely
tell, like, oh, we could have that
conversation.
Sometimes you're just you're coming
in backwards or you're backing into
difficult conversations through
(19:31):
the way that it fits for that
person.
And I'm just a firm believer that if
you listen to people long enough,
you will start to see
what matters to them, and
that is kind of the levers.
And so that's why I find the
durability of it is working, and
that people are responding who are
coming from communities that have
typically been left out of the
mental health conversation.
(19:52):
And I think to me, that is one of
the that is probably the most
exciting thing, is that the
current continuum of care is for
certain people with certain economic
status, with certain access,
with certain,
social norms
and...
Great.
But what about everybody else?
(20:12):
And that's why I think the continuum
of hope makes it accessible.
It makes it, feel
like something that's really about
you, and it puts you in
charge, and you're no longer
just subject to
someone else moving you across a
continuum of what you need.
You are actually there accessing
what you want and need, and then the
community is helping you build it.
(20:34):
I love that.
I love that you talk about different
entry points that, you know, as a,
as an educator, that makes me super
happy because there are always
different entry points.
And I think, you know, I also
work in the disability community and
you're describing the "nothing about
us without us." Right?
That is that's the
phrase.
Say it again, nothing.
Nothing about us without us.
(20:56):
And I love that.
That is beautiful.
Trina, thank you so much for joining
us. This has been such a great
conversation.
I really appreciate your time and
your thoughts.
Thank you for the interest.
And I feel more hopeful.
I know.
Me too.
Me too.
For more information on Talli's work
(21:16):
with Dr. Trina Clayeux and the
Mental Health Pod Squad, check out
our show notes.
And we want to know what you'd want
to see change in the workplace.
You can email us at
Empatheticedge@gmail.com.
If you like what you heard today,
why not send a link to a colleague
or friend or someone who really
needs to hear it.
And please rate and review us.
(21:39):
This podcast is a project of the
Empathetic and Intentional
Leadership Academy.
The Empathetic Edge is produced by
Julie Subrin. Jon Morin
wrote the theme music and is our mix
engineer.
To learn more about The Empathetic
edge, visit us at
www.TheEmpatheticEdge.com.
We look forward to seeing you next
time.
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