April 9, 2024 • 24 mins
Have you ever been asked to "circle back" or "put a pin in that" in a meeting? Workplace jargon and buzzwords are the worst! On this episode, hosts Amanda Morin and Talli Dolge talk to Karin Bilich, Head of Content at Noom about the importance of using plain language for effective communication. Karin, a content creator, storyteller, and health tech executive, highlights the power dynamics associated with using specialized language and the exclusionary effect it can have on others.
She emphasizes the need for clear communication in healthcare and why she thinks the integration of health tech is crucial to improve patient experiences and outcomes. Listen in as she provides advice for leaders on how to communicate effectively to make people feel heard, understood, and empowered.
Takeaways
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Jargon and acronyms can create power dynamics and exclude others in the workplace.
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Plain language and understanding the audience are crucial for effective communication.
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User testing is essential to ensure that communication is understood by the intended audience.
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Biases in communication can have a significant impact, and training is needed to address them.
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Effective communication should make people feel heard, understood, and empowered.
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Public health campaigns should aim to empower individuals and address their fears and anxieties.
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Connection, self-awareness, and empathy are crucial in effective communication.
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Clear communication is essential in healthcare, and health communications should be integrated into the patient experience.
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Leaders should prioritize creating a safe environment for communication and focus on achieving buy-in from their team members.
Related Resources:
About Our Guest:
Karin Bilich is an award-winning executive bridging the gaps between healthcare, health tech, and health communications, Karin's mission is driving healthy behavior change and working towards a world with health equity for all.
Karin has worked for over 20 years as a content creator, storyteller, and health tech executive. Now with a masters in health communication, she is leading the creation of engaging, informative and innovative digital solutions and effective content and communication strategies to improve life outcomes.
Karin is currently the Head of Content for Noom, a well-known behavior change app. She has previously worked in content and communications for Understood.org (a not-for-profit organization aiming to improve life outcomes for neurodivergent individuals), as well as other healthcare and parenting-focused organizations, including Columbia University Medical Center.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Talli, earlier this week, I had a
conversation where somebody said the
sentence, "I think the low
hanging fruit here is to leverage
the existing assets for a quick win."
What does that even mean?
I think it just meant like,
we're going to use the stuff we
already have.
Yep. Sounds about right.
Welcome to The Empathetic Edge.
(00:22):
I'm Amanda Morin.
I call myself a neurodivergent
neurodiversity consultant.
I'm Talli Dolge, and I'm a
self-proclaimed highly anxious
leader, especially this
week.
This is a podcast about leadership
and about why you will never, ever
hear me ask one of my colleagues.
"How do you think we can move the
needle so we could create best
(00:42):
practices and make this a win-win
conversation for us all?"
Now, I'll be the first to admit
I myself use corporate
jargon on a regular basis,
and it seems to be a really
hard habit for me to break,
but I've really come to believe
that it's a barrier
to clarity, to transparency,
(01:03):
and to connection.
Absolutely.
And I also think it becomes a
problem when that language that
you're using internally, in the
workplace, seeps into the language
you use externally when you're
talking to customers or
clients or maybe even patients.
At best, it can be really
alienating, and at worst, I think it
can lead to some really damaging
(01:23):
miscommunication.
And one person who knows a whole lot
about this is our guest today, Karin
Bilich.
She's a fierce advocate of what she
calls plain language.
Karin is the head of content
at Noom, a health and wellness
app. She also teaches college
courses on health dynamics
and social marketing.
Karin has a masters in Health
(01:44):
Communications, and she's been a
content creator and storyteller for
over 20 years.
She and I used to work together, and
I would say communication is
absolutely a superpower of hers.
And I'm so happy that she's joining
us today.
So, Karin, welcome to The Empathetic
Edge. I know that when we touched
base last time,
Talli and I were still ideating and
(02:05):
generating early stage ideas
of this concept.
And I told you I'd circle back when
we were out of the parking lot and
ready to launch.
And now here we are.
Here we are.
Really good to be here.
More seriously, you know,
tally and I talk a lot about the
tendency of people in leadership
positions to say a lot of words that
when you really break it down, don't
(02:26):
mean anything, and
that those big words and empty
phrases really can be a barrier to
understanding.
I know that you are someone who has
thought a lot about what makes
communication effective and
ineffective.
Can you talk a little bit about how
that applies in your current job as
the head of content at Noom?
Yes.
I mean, I can talk about it both in
(02:48):
terms of internal
interactions and external
interactions.
You know, I'll start by saying that
when I started at Noom,
I had never been anywhere
that used more buzzwords
or acronyms than Noom
had.
Everything had a nickname.
(03:09):
You know, we they talk about the T&G
team, and I still to this day
have no idea what the T&G team is
at Noom.
So it's quite intimidating,
especially if you're new in an
environment like that.
Although, I'll have to say, even
after you've been there for a while,
it almost becomes more intimidating
to still not know because then
you're really expected to know.
(03:29):
It becomes even harder to ask
questions.
I've come to believe that using
jargon and acronyms,
especially if other people don't
understand them, is a way
to express power.
It's a way to kind of be on the
inside and potentially make other
people feel like they're on the
outside.
So I think whether that's
(03:51):
subconscious or intentional,
I think that that's something that
goes on a lot in the workplace, and
it really does make other
people feel excluded or isolated.
But the truth is this really just
stands in the way of good
communication.
People become afraid
to ask what certain things mean,
so they end up just nodding along
(04:11):
and pretending they understand.
And then there are people who really
should be giving input
or providing feedback on
certain topics that just aren't able
to do it because they feel like they
can't speak up because they're
behind and it becomes cyclical.
So, you know, internally in an
organization, I think that's
something we have to be so careful
of.
(04:31):
And then of course, there's the
external piece of it too, which I'm
sure we'll talk more about.
But, you know, how do you when
you're talking to consumers,
make sure that what you're
communicating with them is
understood? And that's
kind of what I do for a living.
So.
Yeah.
Well I think internally, you know,
if we're using a certain language,
I would ask you, especially with
(04:52):
your work that you do
and all these different teams having
their own language and their own
ways of speaking about that.
How do you bring that to the outside
world?
Yeah, I think that's a really good
point, because I think
when you spend so much time with the
same people and you start
working under the assumption that
everyone knows everything,
(05:15):
and knows what
you mean when you say X or Y or Z,
it becomes problematic when you then
want to communicate with the outside
world.
Because you don't always remember
what they do and don't know.
I can give an example, actually, of
something that came up in the last
few days at Noom where,
you know, we're creating a product
that's a companion for people taking
(05:36):
GLP-1 medication, which is
quite popular nowadays.
I'm going to pause and say, what's
GLP-1 medication?
Because I don't know.
Ozempic.
Mounjaro
Wegovy, Mounjaro...all
of that
The all of the things that the
celebrity, the celebrities saying
that they're they're taking now and
they have lost 30 pounds.
(05:57):
Yeah. So one of the things and
I'm going to assume you don't know
this because that's how you should
always make assumptions.
One of the things that can happen
when you take these medications is
you can lose muscle just as much
as you lose fat, because when
your body needs calories, it's going
to grab calories from wherever it
can.
And so part of the program
that we have is sort of called your
(06:19):
muscle defense program.
And it's all about how to maintain
muscle while you're taking these
medications.
And I kind of raised a question
a few days ago because there was
we were talking about how we were
going to market the muscle defense
program and everything that was
going to offer. And I kind of zoomed
out and said, how do we know
that the people who are coming here
even have any idea that they might
(06:40):
lose muscle?
And there was kind of these looks
around the room like, but we all
know this. Of course, we all know.
No.
We know this because we work in this
field.
So always remembering
to zoom out and to
think about what other people
actually know and don't know
is just so important because it
tends to get lost in these
conversations.
Definitely. And I think that's one
(07:01):
of the guiding principles that
that I learned from you.
You know, I was a subject matter
expert doing some writing.
And I remember many times you saying
to me, "I don't know what thatmeans.,
you need to, you know, break that
down." You have guiding
principles when you think about word
choice and like the overall tone of
things.
Can you detail any of those guiding
principles?
Yeah. I mean, you know, it's
(07:22):
it's obviously different for
each brand.
What I will say that's
sort of consistent, no matter what
brand you're working for
or what information you're
communicating is, it has
to be in plain language.
It has to be understandable.
It has to sound like it's coming
from somebody who is speaking with
(07:43):
you, not at you.
You know, at Noom, it's more light
and conversational.
That's what I inherited.
I didn't make significant changes to
it. But I will say that when
Noom started creating a separate
product called Noom Mood,
which was an app to help with
stress and sleep and that sort of
thing, we had to do some some
rethinking about
(08:06):
can a light, fun, joking
tone of voice be
off-putting if somebody
is joining because they're
incredibly stressed or maybe
suffering from depression?
All of a sudden, you know, the way
you can make jokes about the food
that's in their pantry, you
can't necessarily make similar
type jokes about somebody
(08:27):
who is really struggling,
you know, in, in terms of some sort
of mental, mental illness.
So I think being able
to, again, to zoom out and to think
about what needs to stay true
to the brand and what needs to
flex based on what
you're talking about.
And that was,
one of the challenges at Noom and
will continue to be.
(08:59):
We also know that you teach courses,
right? You teach courses on health
dynamics and social marketing.
Yes.
Tell us about what that is and who
your students are and all of that.
Yes. So
health dynamics by definition,
is all the things that
impact people's health.
Health equity is kind of a big piece
(09:20):
of that.
All of the issues related
to race, culture
and so on that lead to
health inequity is a part of health
dynamics.
But there are lots of other facets
as well, like people's
stress levels, adverse
childhood experiences,
other things that can really impact
somebody's health for years and
(09:40):
years to come. So that is the health
dynamics class.
The social marketing
course that I'm teaching focuses
a lot more on public health
campaigns.
It's sort of more like a project
that says if you were
creating a public health campaign,
trying to encourage people to, for
example, quit smoking,
how would you create a campaign like
(10:01):
that? What research would you do?
You know, who is your target
audience?
Where are they?
How would you reach them?
That kind of thing.
The students are actually very
different in the two classes.
For the social marketing class,
there are a lot of people that want
to go into public health or health
administration.
But to be honest and don't tell any
of my students this.
(10:22):
I actually am enjoying
the health dynamics class a bit more
because most of those students
aren't going into administration,
they're actually going into health
care. So they intend to
be nurses, radiologists,
people that will be on the ground
working with patients.
And I have the opportunity
to sit down with them every week
(10:42):
and teach them about things that
they might not otherwise know
about their future patients.
So understanding
their patients' levels of health
literacy, or what cultural
barriers might be standing in the
way of their patients telling them
the truth about certain things.
It's the first time
that I've felt like I'm actually
(11:02):
working with people in health
care who will be making a difference
on a one on one basis, as
opposed to on a larger community
basis.
And that's been really rewarding.
I love that, and I also think
that one of the most important
things with executive leaders or
frontline healthcare providers
having these conversations is about
(11:23):
how to make them feel authentic.
What do you think about people
who are on the frontlines,
healthcare professionals bringing
their lived experiences into
some of these conversations?
I mean, I think the human factor is
incredibly important.
I could talk for a long time about
(11:44):
especially about doctors in
healthcare and the
authoritarianism that has
been part of healthcare for a long
time.
The humanity can do
wonders.
Especially in terms of connection
with a patient.
A patient's comfort level with them.
All of those things can make a world
of difference in terms of the
(12:05):
experience that someone has
in the office of a doctor, a nurse,
a healthcare professional, how
they feel and what they walk
away with.
So I think the humanity is hugely
important.
I also think that needs to be
balanced with the fact that we all
have bias.
Right? And so, you know,
everyone coming in has their own
background, their own experiences
(12:26):
and their own biases.
And so part of what I
am working on in this class is
helping people to understand
what the experience of others
is like.
How other people that might
walk into their office might have
very different backgrounds and very
different experiences.
How can they connect, and how can
they also understand that that
(12:47):
person may be coming from a very
different place, and
how can they form the right
connection to really help that
patient?
You know, part of what we've talked
about on this podcast is,
you know, Talli and I both have
significant anxiety and
things that sort of get in our way
sometimes.
For me, one of the ways I manage
(13:07):
that is having medication.
And I went into just have like
a, an adjustment of a dose
of the medication I was taking.
But my typical doctor, the one who
usually sees me, wasn't there.
It was somebody else who sat down,
didn't know anything about me, was
looking through the chart, was
asking all the questions, and then
just said like, "Have you ever been
in therapy?" And I was like, "Yeah,
(13:28):
yeah, I've done that.
You know, that's that's been part of
my." And she looked at
me. She said, "So it didn't work
then?" And
I like froze.
And I didn't say anything in the
moment because she was in charge.
Right?
But I felt
like she was bringing to the table
her idea of how you fix something,
(13:48):
and that medication was not
the right thing to do.
I didn't know what to do in that
situation, because I didn't know
whether to correct her or to speak
up for myself or,
I don't know, like.
It boggles my mind
that people of
authority and power
can say these things.
Yeah.
(14:09):
Yeah. And I think it's very
few people that actually recognize
that their own biases are coming out
when they're having those
conversations.
You know, more often than not, the
question is, if you're the person
who's on the receiving end of it,
do you call it out?
And if so, how?
And I think it's true whether
you're talking about healthcare
professionals or people in the
(14:30):
workplace, there's just
not enough training
on both understanding
your biases, but on
communication and
really understanding what this
experience is like for someone
else.
It's kind of shocking how few people
know how to do that.
(14:50):
Karin, I know you have your master's
in health communication, so this is
top of mind for you.
Yes.
And I, I really would like to know.
And maybe you don't have an answer,
but, like, why do you think
that people and people,
especially in positions of power,
may not think through those word
choices, right?
Yeah.
Well, I think that
(15:12):
doctors but people in many positions
of power, that's not how they're
judged.
They're not judged by their
communication skills.
You know, I can speak to doctors
because in medical school,
communication is thought of as
sort of a soft skill.
It's not part of
the real rigorous
(15:33):
training.
And you'd think with all of the work
that doctors put in in medical
school and the hours and the years
that that communication would be a
piece of it, but it's really not.
They are generally not
judged by how
well they communicate with patients.
And that's something that I
think really needs to change
societally.
(15:53):
Not that I think doctors
need to be professional
communicators, but
I think that there needs to be a bar
at which they are capable
of making people leave their office
feeling like they've been heard,
they've been understood, and
they're walking away with
information that informs
(16:14):
and empowers them.
That is should be the minimum the
bar for how should
someone should be permitted to work
in that field.
One of the things that I really love
about you, Karin, is that you're
very direct.
You, you know, you say what
you mean, and if
people look as though
they're not getting it, you clarify.
(16:34):
I just I've found myself
saying things in ways in
meetings that probably
isn't connecting and isn't inviting
clarity because
I feel maybe uncomfortable
or uncertain or worried about who's
in the room. Or maybe I don't know
the content as well as as
I want to.
How do we do this as leaders?
(16:56):
Like how do we figure out how to
be direct and connect?
Yeah. Well, I will say that
I think a lot of people do that.
I think you are one of the few that
becomes aware of it.
Thank you.
Because I think most people do not
have the self-awareness.
And so, you know, there's a variety
of reasons why someone might be
(17:18):
speaking in a way that others don't
understand.
As I said, for for many people,
it's just a lack of awareness or a
lack of caring, a lack of
understanding.
They're just spitting out
information.
I do think there are others
where people,
as I had said earlier, want to sound
confident. They want to sound
powerful.
(17:39):
They kind of enjoy
the fact that not everybody
can follow what it is they're
saying. It makes them feel smart.
I mean, it's, you know, in a
different setting, I have to say,
you know, I think we all do it.
So I am so behind the
times on things like pop culture.
Most of the time I sit around
and, you know, at a lunch table at
(17:59):
work and people are talking about
something they binge watched or
the SAG Awards.
And I am so completely lost.
And so.
I can help you with that, Karin.
I can help you with that.
Oh OK, greast. So if I ever do feel
like I have some inside
information about, you know, a
hot product or an app, like
I will absolutely throw it out in
(18:19):
those conversations and not care
if other people understand what I'm
saying, because, you know, it allows
me to finally feel like I'm one of
the cool people.
I love that.
I love that, too.
So we all do it.
But, you know, you talked about
connection and I think to me, that's
ultimately the key to everything,
right? I mean, human connection
(18:40):
is so important both
personally and professionally,
and it's so incredibly
rewarding as a person
when you're talking to somebody and
they're nodding and they're
agreeing with you and they're
hearing you, and maybe they're
responding with follow up thoughts,
that's something that is
intrinsically rewarding to
(19:01):
us as people.
Yeah.
And I also think connection means
different things to different
people.
And so in the workplace,
we have to be aware of
how safe you feel to
connect. And also,
you know, when we're thinking about
connection we think about
transparency and vulnerability.
And then can that be used
(19:23):
against you as well in
the workplace?
Yes.
I want to, just for a minute, go
back to something else you said
Karin, about, like, the
understanding and the ability to
know that somebody is understanding
in the body language and things like
that. And both of you know
(19:44):
that that's something that I
worry about. It's not always a
strength for everybody to be able to
read body language.
And I will just say that one of the
things both of you have seen me do
is like, actually ask sometimes,
like, I don't I don't understand the
expression on your face, like, can
you tell me what that means?
Or that kind of a thing.
And I only mention it because
(20:05):
that's a different kind of
clarification that sometimes I
need.
Yeah.
No, I mean, it absolutely makes
sense. And.
I'll go back to the doctor analogy,
but this is true in every space.
Not everyone has to be a
professional at communication,
right? You can be exceptional
(20:25):
at whatever it is that you do.
And, you know, some people may
have language difficulties.
Some people, you know, I personally
don't process that well listening
to things, I process much better
reading.
That makes it difficult for me in
meetings.
You know, Amanda, you may have more
difficulty picking up facial
cues and those things are okay and
(20:47):
they don't make us any worse
at what it is that we do.
We just have to make sure that
we know how
to either compensate for some
of the areas that are difficult, or
that we can communicate
with others as to
where they may need to
provide more information to
(21:08):
us than they might to other people.
But I also want to talk about the
people who don't feel comfortable
enough to speak up and say,
I don't know how to read your
body language, especially for
fear of repercussions in the
workplace.
Do you have any, like, helpful hints
for people?
Yeah, I mean, there's no
(21:29):
easy answer to that.
I think in some ways it goes back to
what we were saying before about
people using jargon.
There are always going to be people
in the room that
do not necessarily understand
everything, whether that be
something that's said out loud or
that's a verbal cue or nonverbal
cue or anything along those lines.
In our ideal world, everybody
(21:51):
would feel like they can speak up in
those moments, right?
We would love to get to a place
where anybody
who is not understanding something
can say, "Do you mind clarifying
that for me?"
Yes.
We also understand that not
everybody is going to feel
comfortable doing that.
So, you know, maybe a
slightly easier
(22:12):
solution for someone who feels
like they're in that situation and
doesn't feel comfortable speaking up
is maybe if they have a someone that
they're close to or someone that
they trust, right.
And and after that conversation,
approaching them and asking
how they heard or what they
saw.
But, you know, again, we need to
work towards a world
where we understand
(22:34):
that different people have different
levels of understanding.
And, you know, I talked about health
literacy, but.
Yeah.
You can apply that to
anything and any form of
communication or any topic.
We need to get better societally
at understanding that different
people have different levels of
understanding.
Oh, that's so good, so
good. Karin.
(22:55):
I mean, that's exactly
right.
It's such a good way to like,
wrap up a conversation.
Karin, thank you so,
so much for joining us.
Thank you. This was fun.
Such a pleasure.
I have so many more questions.
I could go on for at least another
two hours.
But we're not going to.
But we're not going to.
(23:19):
For some more information on Karen
Blich and on how to use language
better in the workplace, check out
our show notes.
And we want to know what you'd
like to see change in the workplace.
You can email us at Empatheticedge
at gmail dot com.
If you like what you heard today,
why not send a link to a colleague
or a friend or someone who really
(23:40):
needs to hear it.
And please rate and
review us.
This podcast is a project of the
Empathetic and Intentional
Leadership Academy.
The Empathetic Edge is produced by
Julie Subrin.
Jon Morin wrote the theme music
and is our mix engineer.
To learn more about how you can join
us in unraveling the empathetic
edge, visit us at
(24:03):
www.The EmpatheticEdge.com.
And we'll talk to you next time.
Talli, earlier this week, I had a
conversation where somebody said the
sentence, "I think the low
hanging fruit here is to leverage
the existing assets for a quick win."
What does that even mean?
I think it just meant like,
we're going to use the stuff we
already have.
Yep. Sounds about right.
Welcome to The Empathetic Edge.
(00:22):
I'm Amanda Morin.
I call myself a neurodivergent
neurodiversity consultant.
I'm Talli Dolge, and I'm a
self-proclaimed highly anxious
leader, especially this
week.
This is a podcast about leadership
and about why you will never, ever
hear me ask one of my colleagues.
"How do you think we can move the
needle so we could create best
(00:42):
practices and make this a win-win
conversation for us all?"
Now, I'll be the first to admit
I myself use corporate
jargon on a regular basis,
and it seems to be a really
hard habit for me to break,
but I've really come to believe
that it's a barrier
to clarity, to transparency,
(01:03):
and to connection.
Absolutely.
And I also think it becomes a
problem when that language that
you're using internally, in the
workplace, seeps into the language
you use externally when you're
talking to customers or
clients or maybe even patients.
At best, it can be really
alienating, and at worst, I think it
can lead to some really damaging
(01:23):
miscommunication.
And one person who knows a whole lot
about this is our guest today, Karin
Bilich.
She's a fierce advocate of what she
calls plain language.
Karin is the head of content
at Noom, a health and wellness
app. She also teaches college
courses on health dynamics
and social marketing.
Karin has a masters in Health
(01:44):
Communications, and she's been a
content creator and storyteller for
over 20 years.
She and I used to work together, and
I would say communication is
absolutely a superpower of hers.
And I'm so happy that she's joining
us today.
So, Karin, welcome to The Empathetic
Edge. I know that when we touched
base last time,
Talli and I were still ideating and
(02:05):
generating early stage ideas
of this concept.
And I told you I'd circle back when
we were out of the parking lot and
ready to launch.
And now here we are.
Here we are.
Really good to be here.
More seriously, you know,
tally and I talk a lot about the
tendency of people in leadership
positions to say a lot of words that
when you really break it down, don't
(02:26):
mean anything, and
that those big words and empty
phrases really can be a barrier to
understanding.
I know that you are someone who has
thought a lot about what makes
communication effective and
ineffective.
Can you talk a little bit about how
that applies in your current job as
the head of content at Noom?
Yes.
I mean, I can talk about it both in
(02:48):
terms of internal
interactions and external
interactions.
You know, I'll start by saying that
when I started at Noom,
I had never been anywhere
that used more buzzwords
or acronyms than Noom
had.
Everything had a nickname.
(03:09):
You know, we they talk about the T&G
team, and I still to this day
have no idea what the T&G team is
at Noom.
So it's quite intimidating,
especially if you're new in an
environment like that.
Although, I'll have to say, even
after you've been there for a while,
it almost becomes more intimidating
to still not know because then
you're really expected to know.
(03:29):
It becomes even harder to ask
questions.
I've come to believe that using
jargon and acronyms,
especially if other people don't
understand them, is a way
to express power.
It's a way to kind of be on the
inside and potentially make other
people feel like they're on the
outside.
So I think whether that's
(03:51):
subconscious or intentional,
I think that that's something that
goes on a lot in the workplace, and
it really does make other
people feel excluded or isolated.
But the truth is this really just
stands in the way of good
communication.
People become afraid
to ask what certain things mean,
so they end up just nodding along
(04:11):
and pretending they understand.
And then there are people who really
should be giving input
or providing feedback on
certain topics that just aren't able
to do it because they feel like they
can't speak up because they're
behind and it becomes cyclical.
So, you know, internally in an
organization, I think that's
something we have to be so careful
of.
(04:31):
And then of course, there's the
external piece of it too, which I'm
sure we'll talk more about.
But, you know, how do you when
you're talking to consumers,
make sure that what you're
communicating with them is
understood? And that's
kind of what I do for a living.
So.
Yeah.
Well I think internally, you know,
if we're using a certain language,
I would ask you, especially with
(04:52):
your work that you do
and all these different teams having
their own language and their own
ways of speaking about that.
How do you bring that to the outside
world?
Yeah, I think that's a really good
point, because I think
when you spend so much time with the
same people and you start
working under the assumption that
everyone knows everything,
(05:15):
and knows what
you mean when you say X or Y or Z,
it becomes problematic when you then
want to communicate with the outside
world.
Because you don't always remember
what they do and don't know.
I can give an example, actually, of
something that came up in the last
few days at Noom where,
you know, we're creating a product
that's a companion for people taking
(05:36):
GLP-1 medication, which is
quite popular nowadays.
I'm going to pause and say, what's
GLP-1 medication?
Because I don't know.
Ozempic.
Mounjaro
Wegovy, Mounjaro...all
of that
The all of the things that the
celebrity, the celebrities saying
that they're they're taking now and
they have lost 30 pounds.
(05:57):
Yeah. So one of the things and
I'm going to assume you don't know
this because that's how you should
always make assumptions.
One of the things that can happen
when you take these medications is
you can lose muscle just as much
as you lose fat, because when
your body needs calories, it's going
to grab calories from wherever it
can.
And so part of the program
that we have is sort of called your
(06:19):
muscle defense program.
And it's all about how to maintain
muscle while you're taking these
medications.
And I kind of raised a question
a few days ago because there was
we were talking about how we were
going to market the muscle defense
program and everything that was
going to offer. And I kind of zoomed
out and said, how do we know
that the people who are coming here
even have any idea that they might
(06:40):
lose muscle?
And there was kind of these looks
around the room like, but we all
know this. Of course, we all know.
No.
We know this because we work in this
field.
So always remembering
to zoom out and to
think about what other people
actually know and don't know
is just so important because it
tends to get lost in these
conversations.
Definitely. And I think that's one
(07:01):
of the guiding principles that
that I learned from you.
You know, I was a subject matter
expert doing some writing.
And I remember many times you saying
to me, "I don't know what thatmeans.,
you need to, you know, break that
down." You have guiding
principles when you think about word
choice and like the overall tone of
things.
Can you detail any of those guiding
principles?
Yeah. I mean, you know, it's
(07:22):
it's obviously different for
each brand.
What I will say that's
sort of consistent, no matter what
brand you're working for
or what information you're
communicating is, it has
to be in plain language.
It has to be understandable.
It has to sound like it's coming
from somebody who is speaking with
(07:43):
you, not at you.
You know, at Noom, it's more light
and conversational.
That's what I inherited.
I didn't make significant changes to
it. But I will say that when
Noom started creating a separate
product called Noom Mood,
which was an app to help with
stress and sleep and that sort of
thing, we had to do some some
rethinking about
(08:06):
can a light, fun, joking
tone of voice be
off-putting if somebody
is joining because they're
incredibly stressed or maybe
suffering from depression?
All of a sudden, you know, the way
you can make jokes about the food
that's in their pantry, you
can't necessarily make similar
type jokes about somebody
(08:27):
who is really struggling,
you know, in, in terms of some sort
of mental, mental illness.
So I think being able
to, again, to zoom out and to think
about what needs to stay true
to the brand and what needs to
flex based on what
you're talking about.
And that was,
one of the challenges at Noom and
will continue to be.
(08:59):
We also know that you teach courses,
right? You teach courses on health
dynamics and social marketing.
Yes.
Tell us about what that is and who
your students are and all of that.
Yes. So
health dynamics by definition,
is all the things that
impact people's health.
Health equity is kind of a big piece
(09:20):
of that.
All of the issues related
to race, culture
and so on that lead to
health inequity is a part of health
dynamics.
But there are lots of other facets
as well, like people's
stress levels, adverse
childhood experiences,
other things that can really impact
somebody's health for years and
(09:40):
years to come. So that is the health
dynamics class.
The social marketing
course that I'm teaching focuses
a lot more on public health
campaigns.
It's sort of more like a project
that says if you were
creating a public health campaign,
trying to encourage people to, for
example, quit smoking,
how would you create a campaign like
(10:01):
that? What research would you do?
You know, who is your target
audience?
Where are they?
How would you reach them?
That kind of thing.
The students are actually very
different in the two classes.
For the social marketing class,
there are a lot of people that want
to go into public health or health
administration.
But to be honest and don't tell any
of my students this.
(10:22):
I actually am enjoying
the health dynamics class a bit more
because most of those students
aren't going into administration,
they're actually going into health
care. So they intend to
be nurses, radiologists,
people that will be on the ground
working with patients.
And I have the opportunity
to sit down with them every week
(10:42):
and teach them about things that
they might not otherwise know
about their future patients.
So understanding
their patients' levels of health
literacy, or what cultural
barriers might be standing in the
way of their patients telling them
the truth about certain things.
It's the first time
that I've felt like I'm actually
(11:02):
working with people in health
care who will be making a difference
on a one on one basis, as
opposed to on a larger community
basis.
And that's been really rewarding.
I love that, and I also think
that one of the most important
things with executive leaders or
frontline healthcare providers
having these conversations is about
(11:23):
how to make them feel authentic.
What do you think about people
who are on the frontlines,
healthcare professionals bringing
their lived experiences into
some of these conversations?
I mean, I think the human factor is
incredibly important.
I could talk for a long time about
(11:44):
especially about doctors in
healthcare and the
authoritarianism that has
been part of healthcare for a long
time.
The humanity can do
wonders.
Especially in terms of connection
with a patient.
A patient's comfort level with them.
All of those things can make a world
of difference in terms of the
(12:05):
experience that someone has
in the office of a doctor, a nurse,
a healthcare professional, how
they feel and what they walk
away with.
So I think the humanity is hugely
important.
I also think that needs to be
balanced with the fact that we all
have bias.
Right? And so, you know,
everyone coming in has their own
background, their own experiences
(12:26):
and their own biases.
And so part of what I
am working on in this class is
helping people to understand
what the experience of others
is like.
How other people that might
walk into their office might have
very different backgrounds and very
different experiences.
How can they connect, and how can
they also understand that that
(12:47):
person may be coming from a very
different place, and
how can they form the right
connection to really help that
patient?
You know, part of what we've talked
about on this podcast is,
you know, Talli and I both have
significant anxiety and
things that sort of get in our way
sometimes.
For me, one of the ways I manage
(13:07):
that is having medication.
And I went into just have like
a, an adjustment of a dose
of the medication I was taking.
But my typical doctor, the one who
usually sees me, wasn't there.
It was somebody else who sat down,
didn't know anything about me, was
looking through the chart, was
asking all the questions, and then
just said like, "Have you ever been
in therapy?" And I was like, "Yeah,
(13:28):
yeah, I've done that.
You know, that's that's been part of
my." And she looked at
me. She said, "So it didn't work
then?" And
I like froze.
And I didn't say anything in the
moment because she was in charge.
Right?
But I felt
like she was bringing to the table
her idea of how you fix something,
(13:48):
and that medication was not
the right thing to do.
I didn't know what to do in that
situation, because I didn't know
whether to correct her or to speak
up for myself or,
I don't know, like.
It boggles my mind
that people of
authority and power
can say these things.
Yeah.
(14:09):
Yeah. And I think it's very
few people that actually recognize
that their own biases are coming out
when they're having those
conversations.
You know, more often than not, the
question is, if you're the person
who's on the receiving end of it,
do you call it out?
And if so, how?
And I think it's true whether
you're talking about healthcare
professionals or people in the
(14:30):
workplace, there's just
not enough training
on both understanding
your biases, but on
communication and
really understanding what this
experience is like for someone
else.
It's kind of shocking how few people
know how to do that.
(14:50):
Karin, I know you have your master's
in health communication, so this is
top of mind for you.
Yes.
And I, I really would like to know.
And maybe you don't have an answer,
but, like, why do you think
that people and people,
especially in positions of power,
may not think through those word
choices, right?
Yeah.
Well, I think that
(15:12):
doctors but people in many positions
of power, that's not how they're
judged.
They're not judged by their
communication skills.
You know, I can speak to doctors
because in medical school,
communication is thought of as
sort of a soft skill.
It's not part of
the real rigorous
(15:33):
training.
And you'd think with all of the work
that doctors put in in medical
school and the hours and the years
that that communication would be a
piece of it, but it's really not.
They are generally not
judged by how
well they communicate with patients.
And that's something that I
think really needs to change
societally.
(15:53):
Not that I think doctors
need to be professional
communicators, but
I think that there needs to be a bar
at which they are capable
of making people leave their office
feeling like they've been heard,
they've been understood, and
they're walking away with
information that informs
(16:14):
and empowers them.
That is should be the minimum the
bar for how should
someone should be permitted to work
in that field.
One of the things that I really love
about you, Karin, is that you're
very direct.
You, you know, you say what
you mean, and if
people look as though
they're not getting it, you clarify.
(16:34):
I just I've found myself
saying things in ways in
meetings that probably
isn't connecting and isn't inviting
clarity because
I feel maybe uncomfortable
or uncertain or worried about who's
in the room. Or maybe I don't know
the content as well as as
I want to.
How do we do this as leaders?
(16:56):
Like how do we figure out how to
be direct and connect?
Yeah. Well, I will say that
I think a lot of people do that.
I think you are one of the few that
becomes aware of it.
Thank you.
Because I think most people do not
have the self-awareness.
And so, you know, there's a variety
of reasons why someone might be
(17:18):
speaking in a way that others don't
understand.
As I said, for for many people,
it's just a lack of awareness or a
lack of caring, a lack of
understanding.
They're just spitting out
information.
I do think there are others
where people,
as I had said earlier, want to sound
confident. They want to sound
powerful.
(17:39):
They kind of enjoy
the fact that not everybody
can follow what it is they're
saying. It makes them feel smart.
I mean, it's, you know, in a
different setting, I have to say,
you know, I think we all do it.
So I am so behind the
times on things like pop culture.
Most of the time I sit around
and, you know, at a lunch table at
(17:59):
work and people are talking about
something they binge watched or
the SAG Awards.
And I am so completely lost.
And so.
I can help you with that, Karin.
I can help you with that.
Oh OK, greast. So if I ever do feel
like I have some inside
information about, you know, a
hot product or an app, like
I will absolutely throw it out in
(18:19):
those conversations and not care
if other people understand what I'm
saying, because, you know, it allows
me to finally feel like I'm one of
the cool people.
I love that.
I love that, too.
So we all do it.
But, you know, you talked about
connection and I think to me, that's
ultimately the key to everything,
right? I mean, human connection
(18:40):
is so important both
personally and professionally,
and it's so incredibly
rewarding as a person
when you're talking to somebody and
they're nodding and they're
agreeing with you and they're
hearing you, and maybe they're
responding with follow up thoughts,
that's something that is
intrinsically rewarding to
(19:01):
us as people.
Yeah.
And I also think connection means
different things to different
people.
And so in the workplace,
we have to be aware of
how safe you feel to
connect. And also,
you know, when we're thinking about
connection we think about
transparency and vulnerability.
And then can that be used
(19:23):
against you as well in
the workplace?
Yes.
I want to, just for a minute, go
back to something else you said
Karin, about, like, the
understanding and the ability to
know that somebody is understanding
in the body language and things like
that. And both of you know
(19:44):
that that's something that I
worry about. It's not always a
strength for everybody to be able to
read body language.
And I will just say that one of the
things both of you have seen me do
is like, actually ask sometimes,
like, I don't I don't understand the
expression on your face, like, can
you tell me what that means?
Or that kind of a thing.
And I only mention it because
(20:05):
that's a different kind of
clarification that sometimes I
need.
Yeah.
No, I mean, it absolutely makes
sense. And.
I'll go back to the doctor analogy,
but this is true in every space.
Not everyone has to be a
professional at communication,
right? You can be exceptional
(20:25):
at whatever it is that you do.
And, you know, some people may
have language difficulties.
Some people, you know, I personally
don't process that well listening
to things, I process much better
reading.
That makes it difficult for me in
meetings.
You know, Amanda, you may have more
difficulty picking up facial
cues and those things are okay and
(20:47):
they don't make us any worse
at what it is that we do.
We just have to make sure that
we know how
to either compensate for some
of the areas that are difficult, or
that we can communicate
with others as to
where they may need to
provide more information to
(21:08):
us than they might to other people.
But I also want to talk about the
people who don't feel comfortable
enough to speak up and say,
I don't know how to read your
body language, especially for
fear of repercussions in the
workplace.
Do you have any, like, helpful hints
for people?
Yeah, I mean, there's no
(21:29):
easy answer to that.
I think in some ways it goes back to
what we were saying before about
people using jargon.
There are always going to be people
in the room that
do not necessarily understand
everything, whether that be
something that's said out loud or
that's a verbal cue or nonverbal
cue or anything along those lines.
In our ideal world, everybody
(21:51):
would feel like they can speak up in
those moments, right?
We would love to get to a place
where anybody
who is not understanding something
can say, "Do you mind clarifying
that for me?"
Yes.
We also understand that not
everybody is going to feel
comfortable doing that.
So, you know, maybe a
slightly easier
(22:12):
solution for someone who feels
like they're in that situation and
doesn't feel comfortable speaking up
is maybe if they have a someone that
they're close to or someone that
they trust, right.
And and after that conversation,
approaching them and asking
how they heard or what they
saw.
But, you know, again, we need to
work towards a world
where we understand
(22:34):
that different people have different
levels of understanding.
And, you know, I talked about health
literacy, but.
Yeah.
You can apply that to
anything and any form of
communication or any topic.
We need to get better societally
at understanding that different
people have different levels of
understanding.
Oh, that's so good, so
good. Karin.
(22:55):
I mean, that's exactly
right.
It's such a good way to like,
wrap up a conversation.
Karin, thank you so,
so much for joining us.
Thank you. This was fun.
Such a pleasure.
I have so many more questions.
I could go on for at least another
two hours.
But we're not going to.
But we're not going to.
(23:19):
For some more information on Karen
Blich and on how to use language
better in the workplace, check out
our show notes.
And we want to know what you'd
like to see change in the workplace.
You can email us at Empatheticedge
at gmail dot com.
If you like what you heard today,
why not send a link to a colleague
or a friend or someone who really
(23:40):
needs to hear it.
And please rate and
review us.
This podcast is a project of the
Empathetic and Intentional
Leadership Academy.
The Empathetic Edge is produced by
Julie Subrin.
Jon Morin wrote the theme music
and is our mix engineer.
To learn more about how you can join
us in unraveling the empathetic
edge, visit us at
(24:03):
www.The EmpatheticEdge.com.
And we'll talk to you next time.
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