April 27, 2025 • 12 mins
In their second conversation together, Friederike interviews Harvard University’s Professor John Ratey, author of 'Spark' and 'ADHD 2.0,' about the impact that exercise has on brain health. They discuss how physical activity helped shape the way our brains evolve, the benefits of exercise on mood and cognitive functions, and practical advice on incorporating exercise into daily routines. The pair answer the question of which form of exercise leads to the greatest neurological impact and the historical understanding of exercise as a tool for treating mental health issues. Highlights include insights on the historical context of exercise in treating mood disorders, the importance of both cardio and strength training, and unique exercise tips for improving concentration and managing mental health.
00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:31 The Connection Between Movement and the Brain
02:43 Exercise as Medicine
04:23 Optimal Exercise Timing and Types
08:01 Real-Life Examples and Simple Hacks
10:07 The Importance of Rest Days and Recovery
11:12 Conclusion and Practical Tips
John Ratey (https://www.johnratey.com/) is an Associate Clinical Professor of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and an internationally recognized expert in Neuropsychiatry. He has published over 60 peer-reviewed articles, and 12 books published in 20 languages. With the publication of his bestseller, "Spark-The Revolutionary New Science of Exercise and the Brain," Dr. Ratey established himself as one of the world's foremost authorities on the brain-fitness connection in areas such as ADHD, Autism, Aging and Cognition.
Follow Friederike on LinkedIn to stay connected and up to date on her neurohacks.
And if you're looking for more brain-friendly insights be sure to subscribe to The Brain-Friendly Newsletter.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Friederike Fabritius (00:05):
Hello everyone.
I'm with . Professor John Ratey.
From Harvard University, bestsellingauthor of Spark and Driven to Distraction
and ADHD 2.0 and Go Wild, like a bunchof really exciting books and he has an
important message and he's been withme in one episode on how exercise is
(00:27):
great for the brain, but today I wouldlike to go a bit deeper with you, John.
I would like to talk to you aboutwhy exercise is good for the brain.
Like what's happening in thebrain, what's going on, like when
I move, what's going on up here?
John Ratey (00:43):
Well, it's a, it really requires a paradigm shift of
understanding because most of us knowthat exercise is good for the body, right?
To build muscle, to build endurance andall that, and to keep for heart rate and
blood pressure and lowering our glucosein general, but the real magic is that
exercise helped evolve our big brains.
(01:06):
As we were hunter gatherers, we beganto move more purposefully we were
able to predict, we would be ableto analyze what we did to become
the evolutionary victors, right?
And with that, our brains grew big.
And a big part of that growth was tomanage our ability to move and exercise
(01:28):
and eventually our moving brain becameour thinking brain, and this is what
most people have no idea about, thatwhen we move, we activate our same
cells that we use to think with.
To plan, to evaluate, to pay attentionwith, and to you know, really manage
(01:52):
our brain, manage the world, and, andthis is what most people don't get,
that we, our brains evolved to bethe wonderful brains we have in big
part because of the way we move andthis has relevance for us every day.
The more we move, the more we'reexciting those nerve cells in the brain
(02:14):
that are involved with our thinking.
And oh, by the way, it also helpsmanage our moods, our anxiety,
our stress levels, our response tostress, and a big one is helping
us pay attention and stick with it.
Friederike Fabritius (02:32):
I think that's so exciting because people don't,
I think it's still not mainstreamto understand that there's this
strong body-brain connection.
And it goes both ways.
And if you move your body, your brainbenefits, and I also in, in your
book Spark, you mentioned that it'soften just as effective as certain
(02:54):
antidepressants or anti-anxiety medicines,can we speak a little bit on that?
Because I think it's such a powerfulmessage and, I don't hear it often.
John Ratey (03:04):
It's not often enough.
And, uh, you know, I mean, you know,Hippocrates in 300 BC in the first
medical textbook talked about what wasthe treatment for bad moods or depression.
And it was walking, it was goingout for a walk, a long walk.
And if you came back and youwere still depressed, he'd send
(03:25):
you out more walk, walk further.
And what does this mean?
This means that we know and knew thatmovement had a big effect on the way we
feel and the way we perceive the world.
And so in, in Spark, in my book I havechapters on anxiety, on depression,
on ADHD, on addiction and on specialproblems with women and, and hormones
(03:51):
that have so much to do with the way wefeel in the way we navigate the world.
So not only do we know that it has abig powerful effect on our thinking
and our memory, and our attention, butin, and also in the way we feel and how
we can manage our feelings that way.
Friederike Fabritius (04:12):
Yeah.
And it doesn't have to be complicated.
You just mentioned walking, so I wannahear from you because I think that's
a question everybody wants to know.
So I want to get intolike the how to exercise.
We have now established that it'sgreat for cognitive performance, it's
great for your mood, it's great againsta range of like, let's say medical
problems that have to do with the brain.
(04:34):
So, one question I have for youthat people ask all the time is,
should you work on a treadmill?
Like, should I be here on my desk,like walking on a treadmill while I
work, or should I exercise before Iwork or afterwards or in the break?
Like is there a certain timelineto, to when I should exercise and
when I should think and learn?
John Ratey (04:56):
Anytime is good but for the best days exercise in the morning to get
your brain activated is the way to go.
And that's what I recommend.
That's what I do.
And that's what we findto be most successful.
However, it doesn't matter.
You could, if you exerciseat night, that's fine too.
Especially if you do it a couple hoursbefore you're going to sleep so that
(05:19):
you can not be revved up for sleepwhich is a huge part of remaining well.
And I think what we know now andin the past 10 years, we're more
focused on the benefits of strengthtraining and building our muscles.
Building our muscles has an effecton our brain as much as an effect
(05:40):
as running on a treadmill or runningoutside or walking or doing yoga.
And then of course doing thingsin exercise that activate
more parts of our brain.
So, for instance, playing sports, you haveto make a decision to change your speed.
Tennis is probably one of the bestsports to play because it's constantly
(06:02):
evaluating, shifting, and changing.
Soccer's great.
Basketball.
All those things that have usthinking about things, but however,
that also means gymnastics.
Also means, especially dance, if youthink about dance and you break down
how much of our brain is being usedwhen we're dancing, 'cause you have
(06:25):
to do it in a certain cadence andlistening to music, doing certain
positions and with other people.
And that's a huge amount ofinformation the brain has to
process while you're moving.
So your brain cells are going crazy,if you will or go, or all excited.
It's, it's a a fire in the brain.
(06:46):
And this is good because the thing we'velearned is the more we use our brain
cells, the stronger the better they getand the more growth we have in the brain.
And it's like anything else inthe body, the more we're using our
cells the better it is for them.
It's not that they get worn out.
No.
(07:07):
They get stronger, they get tougher,and now we know that we make more brain
cells, and especially when we move more.
Friederike Fabritius (07:14):
So what I take from that is, you know, almost
all kinds of exercise are great.
The important thing is that you do it.
In the morning is best.
Weight training is better thanpeople used to think it is, so
it's a new development that weighttraining actually makes you smarter.
Which is a message I love to hearbecause I do that four times a
week and I'm doing power lifting.
(07:35):
Like, it's great to see thatrecognition because I always feel it.
I mean, I feel great afterwards.
I feel a lot sharper, so I just knowit's working based on experience, but
still it's good to have that validated.
And then the idea that, you know,anything that also requires you to think
and coordinate, so for example, like indancing or tennis, where you have to also
(07:55):
use your thinking simultaneously withusing your body is also extra beneficial.
Here's the thing that really made mesmile when I read your book, Spark.
I loved hearing about yourvarious patients and their
little exercise routines.
There was one patient he went wildwith something called DDR, I think.
(08:16):
Dance dance Revolution.
I don't know.
I loved, I had him in myhead, I could see him.
So the idea was that he hadthis video game where he got to
dance, and he took it everywhere.
And it really kept him away from his ADHDsymptoms when I understand it correctly.
And then there was this other lady,I don't know if she had anxiety or
depression or what her issue was,but she was simply jumping rope
(08:40):
whenever she wasn't feeling well.
So just like, in the moment.
These are very simple hacks.
You can take a little jumpingrope with you to a hotel, even if
you're traveling, even if you haveofficially no time to exercise.
Everybody has time to jumprope for five minutes.
John Ratey (08:57):
Exactly.
No, she was an amazing,interesting case of someone who
couldn't do her math homework.
A very bright, smart sixyear or third grader.
And everything else was easy, but mathwas hard, and she would throw a tantrum
as she was doing her math homework.
So I suggested to her mom that she'dstart with five minutes of jump
(09:20):
rope before she sat down to work.
And so eventually she became on a, a jumprope team that traveled throughout the
United States, and she's now a nurse.
So a nurse who has to do a lotof math throughout her career
and and science and stuff.
So she's a proof positive that just alittle bit of exercise can turn your
(09:42):
brain on to be able to, to deal withthe frustration of something that you're
not a master of already, but yeah,almost any kind of exercise is good.
And especially and today in thelast, also in the last 10 years,
it's not only strength training, butbalance and coordination training.
Friederike Fabritius (10:01):
Mm-hmm.
John Ratey (10:02):
There's, it's a huge element of making our brains work best.
Friederike Fabritius (10:07):
Right.
And I would like to hear from youalso, is there, should you exercise
every day or what do you, how doyou feel about like rest days and
recovery and that kind of stuff?
Like, do you exercise every day or do youtake breaks where you don't move at all?
John Ratey (10:22):
I never not move at all but there are days when I do less but I'm
always walking here, especially in Hawaii.
But no, there are days when I I'm notlifting like for you, the power lifter,
you better take rest days because yourmuscles need time , to re, reposition
themselves and regrowth and all that.
And so that the you need rest days.
(10:45):
But most of the time people aren'tpower lifting or aren't in, in doing
a high level of activity all the time.
People worry about, oh, I'mgonna get addicted to exercise.
Wonderful.
If you do, you know?
Wonderful.
Friederike Fabritius (11:00):
That's the perfect take home message.
Like it's something you can hardly overdo.
I mean, if you have to be addictedto something better, it'd be
exercise than crack, right?
Wonderful.
Thank you so much for sharing thesereally practical tips with us.
I mean, if you are a parent and yourchild has trouble learning, you just
(11:20):
heard from Professor Ratey, you canask your child, you can just try
it and get a jumping rope and askyour kid to do that for five minutes
before sitting down with a homework.
It's not more than that.
I mean, that's a very simple trick.
So I, I love that it's soapplicable and accessible.
And at the same time extremelyscience-based and validated.
(11:43):
And no side effects.
John Ratey (11:45):
The only good side effect is it is, it's a longer life.
You'll have a longer life,and it'll be more pleasant.
Friederike Fabritius (11:53):
Right.
I have nothing to add to this.
Thank you so much for coming on andyeah, have a great rest of your day.
John Ratey (12:00):
Okay.
Thank you for having me.
Hello everyone.
I'm with . Professor John Ratey.
From Harvard University, bestsellingauthor of Spark and Driven to Distraction
and ADHD 2.0 and Go Wild, like a bunchof really exciting books and he has an
important message and he's been withme in one episode on how exercise is
(00:27):
great for the brain, but today I wouldlike to go a bit deeper with you, John.
I would like to talk to you aboutwhy exercise is good for the brain.
Like what's happening in thebrain, what's going on, like when
I move, what's going on up here?
John Ratey (00:43):
Well, it's a, it really requires a paradigm shift of
understanding because most of us knowthat exercise is good for the body, right?
To build muscle, to build endurance andall that, and to keep for heart rate and
blood pressure and lowering our glucosein general, but the real magic is that
exercise helped evolve our big brains.
(01:06):
As we were hunter gatherers, we beganto move more purposefully we were
able to predict, we would be ableto analyze what we did to become
the evolutionary victors, right?
And with that, our brains grew big.
And a big part of that growth was tomanage our ability to move and exercise
(01:28):
and eventually our moving brain becameour thinking brain, and this is what
most people have no idea about, thatwhen we move, we activate our same
cells that we use to think with.
To plan, to evaluate, to pay attentionwith, and to you know, really manage
(01:52):
our brain, manage the world, and, andthis is what most people don't get,
that we, our brains evolved to bethe wonderful brains we have in big
part because of the way we move andthis has relevance for us every day.
The more we move, the more we'reexciting those nerve cells in the brain
(02:14):
that are involved with our thinking.
And oh, by the way, it also helpsmanage our moods, our anxiety,
our stress levels, our response tostress, and a big one is helping
us pay attention and stick with it.
Friederike Fabritius (02:32):
I think that's so exciting because people don't,
I think it's still not mainstreamto understand that there's this
strong body-brain connection.
And it goes both ways.
And if you move your body, your brainbenefits, and I also in, in your
book Spark, you mentioned that it'soften just as effective as certain
(02:54):
antidepressants or anti-anxiety medicines,can we speak a little bit on that?
Because I think it's such a powerfulmessage and, I don't hear it often.
John Ratey (03:04):
It's not often enough.
And, uh, you know, I mean, you know,Hippocrates in 300 BC in the first
medical textbook talked about what wasthe treatment for bad moods or depression.
And it was walking, it was goingout for a walk, a long walk.
And if you came back and youwere still depressed, he'd send
(03:25):
you out more walk, walk further.
And what does this mean?
This means that we know and knew thatmovement had a big effect on the way we
feel and the way we perceive the world.
And so in, in Spark, in my book I havechapters on anxiety, on depression,
on ADHD, on addiction and on specialproblems with women and, and hormones
(03:51):
that have so much to do with the way wefeel in the way we navigate the world.
So not only do we know that it has abig powerful effect on our thinking
and our memory, and our attention, butin, and also in the way we feel and how
we can manage our feelings that way.
Friederike Fabritius (04:12):
Yeah.
And it doesn't have to be complicated.
You just mentioned walking, so I wannahear from you because I think that's
a question everybody wants to know.
So I want to get intolike the how to exercise.
We have now established that it'sgreat for cognitive performance, it's
great for your mood, it's great againsta range of like, let's say medical
problems that have to do with the brain.
(04:34):
So, one question I have for youthat people ask all the time is,
should you work on a treadmill?
Like, should I be here on my desk,like walking on a treadmill while I
work, or should I exercise before Iwork or afterwards or in the break?
Like is there a certain timelineto, to when I should exercise and
when I should think and learn?
John Ratey (04:56):
Anytime is good but for the best days exercise in the morning to get
your brain activated is the way to go.
And that's what I recommend.
That's what I do.
And that's what we findto be most successful.
However, it doesn't matter.
You could, if you exerciseat night, that's fine too.
Especially if you do it a couple hoursbefore you're going to sleep so that
(05:19):
you can not be revved up for sleepwhich is a huge part of remaining well.
And I think what we know now andin the past 10 years, we're more
focused on the benefits of strengthtraining and building our muscles.
Building our muscles has an effecton our brain as much as an effect
(05:40):
as running on a treadmill or runningoutside or walking or doing yoga.
And then of course doing thingsin exercise that activate
more parts of our brain.
So, for instance, playing sports, you haveto make a decision to change your speed.
Tennis is probably one of the bestsports to play because it's constantly
(06:02):
evaluating, shifting, and changing.
Soccer's great.
Basketball.
All those things that have usthinking about things, but however,
that also means gymnastics.
Also means, especially dance, if youthink about dance and you break down
how much of our brain is being usedwhen we're dancing, 'cause you have
(06:25):
to do it in a certain cadence andlistening to music, doing certain
positions and with other people.
And that's a huge amount ofinformation the brain has to
process while you're moving.
So your brain cells are going crazy,if you will or go, or all excited.
It's, it's a a fire in the brain.
(06:46):
And this is good because the thing we'velearned is the more we use our brain
cells, the stronger the better they getand the more growth we have in the brain.
And it's like anything else inthe body, the more we're using our
cells the better it is for them.
It's not that they get worn out.
No.
(07:07):
They get stronger, they get tougher,and now we know that we make more brain
cells, and especially when we move more.
Friederike Fabritius (07:14):
So what I take from that is, you know, almost
all kinds of exercise are great.
The important thing is that you do it.
In the morning is best.
Weight training is better thanpeople used to think it is, so
it's a new development that weighttraining actually makes you smarter.
Which is a message I love to hearbecause I do that four times a
week and I'm doing power lifting.
(07:35):
Like, it's great to see thatrecognition because I always feel it.
I mean, I feel great afterwards.
I feel a lot sharper, so I just knowit's working based on experience, but
still it's good to have that validated.
And then the idea that, you know,anything that also requires you to think
and coordinate, so for example, like indancing or tennis, where you have to also
(07:55):
use your thinking simultaneously withusing your body is also extra beneficial.
Here's the thing that really made mesmile when I read your book, Spark.
I loved hearing about yourvarious patients and their
little exercise routines.
There was one patient he went wildwith something called DDR, I think.
(08:16):
Dance dance Revolution.
I don't know.
I loved, I had him in myhead, I could see him.
So the idea was that he hadthis video game where he got to
dance, and he took it everywhere.
And it really kept him away from his ADHDsymptoms when I understand it correctly.
And then there was this other lady,I don't know if she had anxiety or
depression or what her issue was,but she was simply jumping rope
(08:40):
whenever she wasn't feeling well.
So just like, in the moment.
These are very simple hacks.
You can take a little jumpingrope with you to a hotel, even if
you're traveling, even if you haveofficially no time to exercise.
Everybody has time to jumprope for five minutes.
John Ratey (08:57):
Exactly.
No, she was an amazing,interesting case of someone who
couldn't do her math homework.
A very bright, smart sixyear or third grader.
And everything else was easy, but mathwas hard, and she would throw a tantrum
as she was doing her math homework.
So I suggested to her mom that she'dstart with five minutes of jump
(09:20):
rope before she sat down to work.
And so eventually she became on a, a jumprope team that traveled throughout the
United States, and she's now a nurse.
So a nurse who has to do a lotof math throughout her career
and and science and stuff.
So she's a proof positive that just alittle bit of exercise can turn your
(09:42):
brain on to be able to, to deal withthe frustration of something that you're
not a master of already, but yeah,almost any kind of exercise is good.
And especially and today in thelast, also in the last 10 years,
it's not only strength training, butbalance and coordination training.
Friederike Fabritius (10:01):
Mm-hmm.
John Ratey (10:02):
There's, it's a huge element of making our brains work best.
Friederike Fabritius (10:07):
Right.
And I would like to hear from youalso, is there, should you exercise
every day or what do you, how doyou feel about like rest days and
recovery and that kind of stuff?
Like, do you exercise every day or do youtake breaks where you don't move at all?
John Ratey (10:22):
I never not move at all but there are days when I do less but I'm
always walking here, especially in Hawaii.
But no, there are days when I I'm notlifting like for you, the power lifter,
you better take rest days because yourmuscles need time , to re, reposition
themselves and regrowth and all that.
And so that the you need rest days.
(10:45):
But most of the time people aren'tpower lifting or aren't in, in doing
a high level of activity all the time.
People worry about, oh, I'mgonna get addicted to exercise.
Wonderful.
If you do, you know?
Wonderful.
Friederike Fabritius (11:00):
That's the perfect take home message.
Like it's something you can hardly overdo.
I mean, if you have to be addictedto something better, it'd be
exercise than crack, right?
Wonderful.
Thank you so much for sharing thesereally practical tips with us.
I mean, if you are a parent and yourchild has trouble learning, you just
(11:20):
heard from Professor Ratey, you canask your child, you can just try
it and get a jumping rope and askyour kid to do that for five minutes
before sitting down with a homework.
It's not more than that.
I mean, that's a very simple trick.
So I, I love that it's soapplicable and accessible.
And at the same time extremelyscience-based and validated.
(11:43):
And no side effects.
John Ratey (11:45):
The only good side effect is it is, it's a longer life.
You'll have a longer life,and it'll be more pleasant.
Friederike Fabritius (11:53):
Right.
I have nothing to add to this.
Thank you so much for coming on andyeah, have a great rest of your day.
John Ratey (12:00):
Okay.
Thank you for having me.
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