Chasing Rewards: The Role of Dopamine in Happiness and Health with Prof. Peter Sterling
Professor Peter Sterling, author of 'What Is Health?', joins Friederike for the second time to explore the effects of dopamine on the brain. They discuss how we are hardwired to seek out rewards, and those little bursts of dopamine are so crucial for our happiness and health. The conversation explores how drugs, alcohol, video games, and even pornography can mess with our brain's dopamine system, making everyday joys seem less exciting. Peter shares why it's better to focus on simple, natural pleasures and real social connections instead of chasing big dopamine hits via artificial means. He also shares his experience with ADHD and how the current way of treating it may be ineffective.The episode concludes with Peter sharing his tips on how to get your dopamine levels back in balance by being honest with yourself and reaching out to others.
00:00 Introduction
00:37 The Basics of Dopamine
01:46 Dopamine and Daily Life
04:28 Artificial Dopamine Boosters and Their Effects
05:30 The Impact of Modern Stimuli on Dopamine
09:07 ADHD and Dopamine: A Deeper Look
12:27 Dopamine Detox and Rebalancing
13:30 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Peter Sterling is an American anatomist, physiologist and neuroscientist, and Professor of Neuroscience at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine. He is the author of What Is Health? Allostasis and the Evolution of Human Design (2020), and with Simon Laughlin, is an author of Principles of Neural Design.
Follow Friederike on LinkedIn to stay connected and up to date on her neurohacks.
And if you're looking for more brain-friendly insights be sure to subscribe to The Brain-Friendly Newsletter.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Friederike Fabritius (00:05):
Hello everyone.
I'm back here with ProfessorPeter Sterling, author of "What
is Health?" a book that I'veread not just once but twice.
Today, we would love to talk with youabout dopamine because everybody's
talking about dopamine, but I thinkyou understand so much more about it.
In the book, you talk about smallerrewards and small dopamine fluctuation.
(00:29):
I found that was suchan interesting point.
So I would like you to explain what is it?
Why do we need it?
What is it doing for us?
Peter Sterling (00:37):
Sure.
There is a real role for dopamine.
It's a real chemical.
It's studied.
It's role in the brain is studied.
And of course, efforts to raise dopamineartificially by drugs, alcohol, many other
things are well known, they're a problem.
So that said, the question reallyhas been posed a long time:
(01:03):
why do we work for rewards?
What is it that is rewarding?
People discovered that when we'relearning something, when we find
something that's better than we expectedthere is a part of our brain that has
neurons that manufacture this chemical.
It's a neurotransmitter and they releasea little pulse of dopamine and we feel.
(01:27):
A moment of satisfaction.
Oh, yes.
I got the answer right.
I passed the test.
I got a job.
That woman loves me.
Some moment Of satisfaction,and that makes us feel good.
And we're fine for thenext 15 minutes or so.
And then we start to feel uneasy again.
Because we are tuned in to theneed for small pulses of dopamine.
(01:55):
And if we can't get it, we becomevery uncomfortable and we search out
ways to find another small pulse.
For people, it's often,some social interaction.
If I have this long, rich emailcorrespondence, because if I send
somebody a note, I might get a note backand I get a little pulse of dopamine.
(02:19):
The thing is that all of our bodies andthe way dopamine is detected is that other
nerve cells have a little special proteinreceptors that bind the dopamine, it's
a chemical and trigger other changes inother parts of the brain and receptors
that work by binding chemicals respondto the concentration of that chemical.
(02:44):
So when the concentration in thebrain drops locally around these
receptors, they unbind and stop working.
When the concentration rises,they bind the chemical again.
And you feel this momentary satisfaction.
The issue is that all receptorsin the brain, including dopamine
(03:06):
regulate their own sensitivity.
If the chemical or the physicalstimulus is low, then the receptors
up regulate their sensitivityand a very, simple example that I
studied through my career was light.
If you go out side in the dark,at first, you can't see anything.
(03:29):
But then over a few minutes, you canbegin to see stars but if you trying
to flashlight pulse of bright lightin your eyes, your photoreceptors
down regulate their sensitivityand you're essentially blind.
Until you read that.
So the dopamine receptors normallyare going up and down in sensitivity
(03:50):
to these very small pulses.
You know, you get a call from a friend,you have some minor positive thing, you
eat a small piece of chocolate, you know,something that gives you some satisfaction
and you get this little pulse.
And if you like your work, you havesome success in your work, you have some
(04:11):
epiphany, you get this little pulse.
But if you're working under brutalconditions and it's a hostile environment
you're not getting these things.
And so you become hungryfor some dopamine.
This is built into us.
And you go searching for somethingthat will give you some relief.
There are chemicals that act on yourbrain, to release dopamine at large
(04:34):
quantities including nicotine fromcigarettes, cocaine, cocaine acts on
your, nerve cells to prolong the presenceof dopamine, in the synaptic cleft.
Heroin has its own effect.
They all act in these parts ofthe brain that increase the level
of dopamine in big quantities.
(04:54):
Alcohol is another one.
So the problem is if you use thesedrugs to raise your dopamine, you
feel terrific for a few minutes, butthen, of course, dopamine wears away
and you're back to where you were.
So the problem is when you're takingthese artificial, methods to get a big
jolt of dopamine, the little pulses thatyou really need every day are washed out.
(05:21):
I mean, if you're having a, tinylittle pulse and you get a great
big one, you can't see, it's likeyou can't see the stars after you've
had a flash from a flashlight.
Friederike Fabritius (05:30):
I want to hear your take on this with video games.
There are lots of studies that it canmake you smarter and increase your
attention and whatever within the game.
My hypothesis is that it's too much fun.
And I get so much hate for this what Isuspect is that these are so designed
to flood your dopamine that reallife must become boring or bland or
(05:56):
that you might develop some kind ofanhedonia because real life cannot
deliver these huge dopamine floodsconstantly, you have to work for it.
It's like you get these small rewardsand I think if you get used to those
big rewards, you can't appreciatethe small things in life anymore.
Peter Sterling (06:14):
I think there's a lot to that.
I don't get video games myself, butI can imagine what you're saying.
I think another example would bethe design of industrial foods.
I'd say, another example is pornography.
Where you know it's undeniablyarousing, but then it's sort
of makes actual rich sexualrelationships fade into the background.
Friederike Fabritius (06:37):
I think somebody coined the term of supernormal stimuli,
that there are things in life that arejust better than good, that are just
amazing, like processed food, fast cars,pornography, plastic surgery, things
designed to hijack our dopamine system.
I think what people don't realize,is that by seeking more pleasure,
(07:01):
we make ourselves less happy.
So I think that's the counterintuitivething that people don't understand,
that more and more and more will justdesensitize your dopamine receptors.
You build a tolerance, and then eventhough you have more and more beautiful
and extra things, it doesn't mean you willbe happier because your system adjusts.
(07:24):
And I'm also thinking this hashuge relevance for how we foster
our children, like if you get toomany gifts, too much of anything.
I just think there's so much wisdom in it.
And it ties back to thatidea of allostasis that you
always have to be careful.
Where do you want your set point to be?
Peter Sterling (07:44):
That's right.
I think, though, that not to blamethe people for wanting more and more,
the problem is that the things wereally need, become harder to find.
And so we're driven to these things.
I think this starts in childhood,too, that if we have a family where
the parents have time to care forus and connect with us and we have,
(08:06):
complex, rich family connections.
We learn to trust thoseand to enjoy those.
And it's when we're separated from ourfamilies and nobody can have time and so
on we seek out these other activities.
And the thing is that theytend to be sort of fake.
Fake food and fake sexand fake everything else.
(08:27):
It's very passive.
So I think the problem is that, thesmall pleasures become more difficult
to maintain as people transitionfrom their agricultural sort of
lives to more urban existences.
So they're driven to findthese new sources of dopamine.
Friederike Fabritius (08:44):
Can I ask you, every time I talk about dopamine to
any audience, there's always somebodywho says, you know, can I take a pill?
Can I take some kind ofsupplement or something?
What is your take on thesekind of dopamine boosters?
We see them often in the contextof ADHD, but we know that also
college students are taking them.
(09:05):
Can you speak on those?
Peter Sterling (09:07):
Yeah.
So I'd like to say something about ADHD.
I think that people who are studying,mental disturbances, including ADHD, so
called schizophrenia, so called majordepression and so on, are realizing
that these are not brain disorders.
There's nothing wrong with these circuits.
And when you give a child, a drug likeAdderall or Ritalin to raise their
(09:30):
dopamine, which it does by acting justlike cocaine and amphetamines the claim
was, well, they have low dopamine.
And so we're raising theirdopamine to make it normal.
And this is a theory that has beenpromoted by drug companies for 50 years.
And it's now recognizedthat it's not true.
And it's also recognized by the newgenome wide studies that the genes
(09:54):
that contribute to these, so calleddisorders, which I don't think are
disorders, there's thousands of genes,all of small, mostly of small effect.
Most of the problem we have arepeople who, suffer from difficult
families, difficult lives and, childneglect and abuse and what they
(10:14):
call adverse childhood experiences.
And so for these, if you've hada difficult childhood, these drugs
are just not going to solve it.
You have to discover what is it that isleaving this child disturbed or upset
or agitated and help them with it.
I was thinking this morning that, Ihave a certain level of ADHD and my
(10:35):
son, also has suffered probably maybeeven more than I and my grandson.
There's a spectrum of these things,and we're somewhere on this spectrum.
And I think that, young people whoare on the spectrum get dopamine
by, oh boy, oh yeah, look at that.
Oh, oh yeah, look at that.
And so, I don't think it's a bad thing.
And, I think when you have a child or evenas an adult, when you have, a tendency
(11:01):
to respond to many different stimuliand, your mind races on to other things.
That it's something that youneed to learn maybe to manage.
And that's what I have to do.
I have to learn to manage the particulardifficulties that I have, and that's what
we should be doing in school . Helpingchildren across a range of difficulties,
learn how to manage, the difficultiesthey have, you know, so, I think
(11:25):
that these drugs are not helpful.
There are long term studies of childrendiagnosed, as ADHD in their school
years, treated with these drugs, andthen 15, 20 years later, they go back
and compare their degree of successin life in terms of marriage, jobs,
substance abuse or not, and so on.
(11:46):
And the people who were treated quitea lot with these dopamine promoting
drugs, they're no better off thanthe people who aren't treated,
except they're two inches shorter.
Wow.
Yes.
On average.
So there's an indication that whenyou give children these drugs, it
interferes with lots of things thathave to do with growth, and it's a
(12:08):
very complicated thing, but I'm verymuch opposed to using these drugs.
Friederike Fabritius (12:14):
Very interesting.
Thanks for speaking out on that.
Because so many kids are on thesedrugs and even adults and people think
it's helping, but I'm doubtful myself.
So I really wanted to hearyour expert view on that.
I have a final question for you ondopamine for this episode: a lot of people
are dopamine detoxing or digital detoxing.
(12:35):
So, let's say you're listening to thisepisode, you realize you have overindulged
on, I don't know, porn, online shopping,alcohol, nicotine, whatever, screen time.
How can we rebalance?
How long does it take?
What would be the first steps?
Peter Sterling (12:54):
Well, I think the first step is to realize that you're
not happy with what you're doingor the way your life is going.
So, you know, the thing is, you have tofind ways to manage and alternatives.
I think that these difficultiesrequire returning to our social
nature and finding new sourcesof connections in the community.
(13:17):
So, once you find other alternatives,you know, it doesn't take that long
to clear your body of these chemicals,and, it's just hard to find the routine
that you can sustain in a new way.
Friederike Fabritius (13:29):
Great.
Thank you so much, Peter.
I like what you said there.
Be honest to yourself.
I think so much of our brain istaken up if you have too many
lies going on or if you're lyingto other people or to yourself.
That takes up a lot of energyand I think it's just liberating
to be true to yourself.
Even if you realize that you have aproblem or that you're not so perfect.
(13:54):
I think being honest to yourselfis really underrated and
it's so good for your brain.
So thank you so much forthis episode on dopamine.
I look forward to having you back soon.
And for today I say, thank you, Peter.
Goodbye.
Peter Sterling (14:11):
Thanks, Frederica.
Hello everyone.
I'm back here with ProfessorPeter Sterling, author of "What
is Health?" a book that I'veread not just once but twice.
Today, we would love to talk with youabout dopamine because everybody's
talking about dopamine, but I thinkyou understand so much more about it.
In the book, you talk about smallerrewards and small dopamine fluctuation.
(00:29):
I found that was suchan interesting point.
So I would like you to explain what is it?
Why do we need it?
What is it doing for us?
Peter Sterling (00:37):
Sure.
There is a real role for dopamine.
It's a real chemical.
It's studied.
It's role in the brain is studied.
And of course, efforts to raise dopamineartificially by drugs, alcohol, many other
things are well known, they're a problem.
So that said, the question reallyhas been posed a long time:
(01:03):
why do we work for rewards?
What is it that is rewarding?
People discovered that when we'relearning something, when we find
something that's better than we expectedthere is a part of our brain that has
neurons that manufacture this chemical.
It's a neurotransmitter and they releasea little pulse of dopamine and we feel.
(01:27):
A moment of satisfaction.
Oh, yes.
I got the answer right.
I passed the test.
I got a job.
That woman loves me.
Some moment Of satisfaction,and that makes us feel good.
And we're fine for thenext 15 minutes or so.
And then we start to feel uneasy again.
Because we are tuned in to theneed for small pulses of dopamine.
(01:55):
And if we can't get it, we becomevery uncomfortable and we search out
ways to find another small pulse.
For people, it's often,some social interaction.
If I have this long, rich emailcorrespondence, because if I send
somebody a note, I might get a note backand I get a little pulse of dopamine.
(02:19):
The thing is that all of our bodies andthe way dopamine is detected is that other
nerve cells have a little special proteinreceptors that bind the dopamine, it's
a chemical and trigger other changes inother parts of the brain and receptors
that work by binding chemicals respondto the concentration of that chemical.
(02:44):
So when the concentration in thebrain drops locally around these
receptors, they unbind and stop working.
When the concentration rises,they bind the chemical again.
And you feel this momentary satisfaction.
The issue is that all receptorsin the brain, including dopamine
(03:06):
regulate their own sensitivity.
If the chemical or the physicalstimulus is low, then the receptors
up regulate their sensitivityand a very, simple example that I
studied through my career was light.
If you go out side in the dark,at first, you can't see anything.
(03:29):
But then over a few minutes, you canbegin to see stars but if you trying
to flashlight pulse of bright lightin your eyes, your photoreceptors
down regulate their sensitivityand you're essentially blind.
Until you read that.
So the dopamine receptors normallyare going up and down in sensitivity
(03:50):
to these very small pulses.
You know, you get a call from a friend,you have some minor positive thing, you
eat a small piece of chocolate, you know,something that gives you some satisfaction
and you get this little pulse.
And if you like your work, you havesome success in your work, you have some
(04:11):
epiphany, you get this little pulse.
But if you're working under brutalconditions and it's a hostile environment
you're not getting these things.
And so you become hungryfor some dopamine.
This is built into us.
And you go searching for somethingthat will give you some relief.
There are chemicals that act on yourbrain, to release dopamine at large
(04:34):
quantities including nicotine fromcigarettes, cocaine, cocaine acts on
your, nerve cells to prolong the presenceof dopamine, in the synaptic cleft.
Heroin has its own effect.
They all act in these parts ofthe brain that increase the level
of dopamine in big quantities.
(04:54):
Alcohol is another one.
So the problem is if you use thesedrugs to raise your dopamine, you
feel terrific for a few minutes, butthen, of course, dopamine wears away
and you're back to where you were.
So the problem is when you're takingthese artificial, methods to get a big
jolt of dopamine, the little pulses thatyou really need every day are washed out.
(05:21):
I mean, if you're having a, tinylittle pulse and you get a great
big one, you can't see, it's likeyou can't see the stars after you've
had a flash from a flashlight.
Friederike Fabritius (05:30):
I want to hear your take on this with video games.
There are lots of studies that it canmake you smarter and increase your
attention and whatever within the game.
My hypothesis is that it's too much fun.
And I get so much hate for this what Isuspect is that these are so designed
to flood your dopamine that reallife must become boring or bland or
(05:56):
that you might develop some kind ofanhedonia because real life cannot
deliver these huge dopamine floodsconstantly, you have to work for it.
It's like you get these small rewardsand I think if you get used to those
big rewards, you can't appreciatethe small things in life anymore.
Peter Sterling (06:14):
I think there's a lot to that.
I don't get video games myself, butI can imagine what you're saying.
I think another example would bethe design of industrial foods.
I'd say, another example is pornography.
Where you know it's undeniablyarousing, but then it's sort
of makes actual rich sexualrelationships fade into the background.
Friederike Fabritius (06:37):
I think somebody coined the term of supernormal stimuli,
that there are things in life that arejust better than good, that are just
amazing, like processed food, fast cars,pornography, plastic surgery, things
designed to hijack our dopamine system.
I think what people don't realize,is that by seeking more pleasure,
(07:01):
we make ourselves less happy.
So I think that's the counterintuitivething that people don't understand,
that more and more and more will justdesensitize your dopamine receptors.
You build a tolerance, and then eventhough you have more and more beautiful
and extra things, it doesn't mean you willbe happier because your system adjusts.
(07:24):
And I'm also thinking this hashuge relevance for how we foster
our children, like if you get toomany gifts, too much of anything.
I just think there's so much wisdom in it.
And it ties back to thatidea of allostasis that you
always have to be careful.
Where do you want your set point to be?
Peter Sterling (07:44):
That's right.
I think, though, that not to blamethe people for wanting more and more,
the problem is that the things wereally need, become harder to find.
And so we're driven to these things.
I think this starts in childhood,too, that if we have a family where
the parents have time to care forus and connect with us and we have,
(08:06):
complex, rich family connections.
We learn to trust thoseand to enjoy those.
And it's when we're separated from ourfamilies and nobody can have time and so
on we seek out these other activities.
And the thing is that theytend to be sort of fake.
Fake food and fake sexand fake everything else.
(08:27):
It's very passive.
So I think the problem is that, thesmall pleasures become more difficult
to maintain as people transitionfrom their agricultural sort of
lives to more urban existences.
So they're driven to findthese new sources of dopamine.
Friederike Fabritius (08:44):
Can I ask you, every time I talk about dopamine to
any audience, there's always somebodywho says, you know, can I take a pill?
Can I take some kind ofsupplement or something?
What is your take on thesekind of dopamine boosters?
We see them often in the contextof ADHD, but we know that also
college students are taking them.
(09:05):
Can you speak on those?
Peter Sterling (09:07):
Yeah.
So I'd like to say something about ADHD.
I think that people who are studying,mental disturbances, including ADHD, so
called schizophrenia, so called majordepression and so on, are realizing
that these are not brain disorders.
There's nothing wrong with these circuits.
And when you give a child, a drug likeAdderall or Ritalin to raise their
(09:30):
dopamine, which it does by acting justlike cocaine and amphetamines the claim
was, well, they have low dopamine.
And so we're raising theirdopamine to make it normal.
And this is a theory that has beenpromoted by drug companies for 50 years.
And it's now recognizedthat it's not true.
And it's also recognized by the newgenome wide studies that the genes
(09:54):
that contribute to these, so calleddisorders, which I don't think are
disorders, there's thousands of genes,all of small, mostly of small effect.
Most of the problem we have arepeople who, suffer from difficult
families, difficult lives and, childneglect and abuse and what they
(10:14):
call adverse childhood experiences.
And so for these, if you've hada difficult childhood, these drugs
are just not going to solve it.
You have to discover what is it that isleaving this child disturbed or upset
or agitated and help them with it.
I was thinking this morning that, Ihave a certain level of ADHD and my
(10:35):
son, also has suffered probably maybeeven more than I and my grandson.
There's a spectrum of these things,and we're somewhere on this spectrum.
And I think that, young people whoare on the spectrum get dopamine
by, oh boy, oh yeah, look at that.
Oh, oh yeah, look at that.
And so, I don't think it's a bad thing.
And, I think when you have a child or evenas an adult, when you have, a tendency
(11:01):
to respond to many different stimuliand, your mind races on to other things.
That it's something that youneed to learn maybe to manage.
And that's what I have to do.
I have to learn to manage the particulardifficulties that I have, and that's what
we should be doing in school . Helpingchildren across a range of difficulties,
learn how to manage, the difficultiesthey have, you know, so, I think
(11:25):
that these drugs are not helpful.
There are long term studies of childrendiagnosed, as ADHD in their school
years, treated with these drugs, andthen 15, 20 years later, they go back
and compare their degree of successin life in terms of marriage, jobs,
substance abuse or not, and so on.
(11:46):
And the people who were treated quitea lot with these dopamine promoting
drugs, they're no better off thanthe people who aren't treated,
except they're two inches shorter.
Wow.
Yes.
On average.
So there's an indication that whenyou give children these drugs, it
interferes with lots of things thathave to do with growth, and it's a
(12:08):
very complicated thing, but I'm verymuch opposed to using these drugs.
Friederike Fabritius (12:14):
Very interesting.
Thanks for speaking out on that.
Because so many kids are on thesedrugs and even adults and people think
it's helping, but I'm doubtful myself.
So I really wanted to hearyour expert view on that.
I have a final question for you ondopamine for this episode: a lot of people
are dopamine detoxing or digital detoxing.
(12:35):
So, let's say you're listening to thisepisode, you realize you have overindulged
on, I don't know, porn, online shopping,alcohol, nicotine, whatever, screen time.
How can we rebalance?
How long does it take?
What would be the first steps?
Peter Sterling (12:54):
Well, I think the first step is to realize that you're
not happy with what you're doingor the way your life is going.
So, you know, the thing is, you have tofind ways to manage and alternatives.
I think that these difficultiesrequire returning to our social
nature and finding new sourcesof connections in the community.
(13:17):
So, once you find other alternatives,you know, it doesn't take that long
to clear your body of these chemicals,and, it's just hard to find the routine
that you can sustain in a new way.
Friederike Fabritius (13:29):
Great.
Thank you so much, Peter.
I like what you said there.
Be honest to yourself.
I think so much of our brain istaken up if you have too many
lies going on or if you're lyingto other people or to yourself.
That takes up a lot of energyand I think it's just liberating
to be true to yourself.
Even if you realize that you have aproblem or that you're not so perfect.
(13:54):
I think being honest to yourselfis really underrated and
it's so good for your brain.
So thank you so much forthis episode on dopamine.
I look forward to having you back soon.
And for today I say, thank you, Peter.
Goodbye.
Peter Sterling (14:11):
Thanks, Frederica.
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