June 22, 2025 • 21 mins
Achieve Peak Performance and Get Into Flow
Friederike Fabritius sits down with neurofeedback expert Penijean Gracefire for the fourth and final time to discuss the mechanisms behind achieving peak performance and getting into flow. Penijean shares the importance of identifying individual goals, rather than just painting “peak performance” with a broad brush. The pair explore what it means to be in flow, and the significance of building true expertise in today's AI-driven world. Penijean also shares her innovative approach to neurofeedback, focusing on connection, curiosity, and courage, and drives home the importance of tailoring brain training to specific activities and individual needs. Whether you're an athlete, executive, or creative professional, this episode offers valuable insights into optimizing cognitive performance and maintaining mental well-being through advanced neurofeedback techniques.
00:18 Understanding Peak Performance
01:21 Achieving Flow State
03:15 The Role of Expertise in Flow
05:41 Enhancing Creativity and Brain Connectivity
08:19 Improving Processing Speed and Working Memory
15:54 Challenges in Neurofeedback
18:52 Final Thoughts
Follow Friederike on LinkedIn to stay connected and up to date on her neurohacks.
And if you're looking for more brain-friendly insights be sure to subscribe to The Brain-Friendly Newsletter
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Friederike Fabritius (00:05):
Hello everyone.
I'm here with Penijean Gracefire,innovator and very respected icon,
in the neurofeedback community.
Welcome to the show.
Hello.
Penijean Gracefire: Thank you for having me. (00:16):
undefined
Friederike Fabritius (00:18):
You know, I work with executives, so I'm always looking for
ways to give people more peak performanceor better resilience towards stress.
I think not just the executives need that.
Everyone who has a brain, uh,needs that no matter your age,
your profession, your background.
(00:39):
And so I would like to hear from you,if somebody comes to you and says, you
know, I'm a top athlete, or I lead a bigcompany, or I just want to be top of my
game in chess, or something like this.
Like, how do you help peopleto reach peak performance?
Penijean Gracefire (00:57):
Sure.
As we've discussed in previousconversation, the identification of
what it is they want to be able todo is always going to be crucial.
Friederike Fabritius (01:06):
Right.
Penijean Gracefire (01:06):
So depending on goals, our skill, even as a provider
and a designer of a paradigm for themthat's customized, is going to be reliant
on us being able to elicit informationthat really represents what they want.
So for example, if you are a highperformer, a lot of people will discuss
(01:27):
the idea of getting into that flow state.
Friederike Fabritius (01:29):
Exactly.
Yeah.
That's an interest of mine.
I have that fun fear and focusmodel that you need like fun,
fear, and focus to get into flow.
So I'm always interested in flow.
So how would you, for example,teach someone to, to get
into flow or more often?
Penijean Gracefire (01:47):
Sure, sure.
It's interesting, youhave a fun fear focus.
Because I have a connection,curiosity, courage.
Friederike Fabritius (01:55):
Ah, wow.
Perfect match.
Right, right.
Yeah.
Courage.
Yeah.
And I think, I'm pretty sure wecould match them with each other.
The F and the C.
Penijean Gracefire (02:03):
We really could because, um, fun, fear, and focus.
So, I mean, well, not to necessarilygo into the exercise immediately.
Mm-hmm.
I know both of us immediatelywant to engage in the mapping.
Um, but the, the principles thatunderlie, for example, connection,
curiosity, and courage, the ideais that, so if we're gonna consider
(02:24):
the barriers to achieving flow.
Friederike Fabritius (02:28):
Right.
Penijean Gracefire (02:28):
So to identify what flow is, I mean, there's a
lot of different ways to frame it.
One of the most popular ones is toconsider it a, a, an excellent matchup
between task challenge and skill.
Cause if something is too hardand we don't have the skills to
engage with it and to perform,then there that's not viable.
(02:48):
And if something's too easy anddoesn't really hold our attention,
isn't really intriguing orrewarding, also not really ideal.
And so flow as this concept of (02:56):
there's something I'm trying to do, it's
sufficiently challenging and engagingand interesting to me that I feel
I've gotta exert some certain amount.
Friederike Fabritius (03:06):
Exactly.
It needs to matter.
So you don't get into flow unlessthere's something at stake.
There needs to be a littlechallenge, a little bit of, you know,
getting outside your comfort zone.
And also it's, I think, veryhard to get into flow if you
have no skills, to be honest.
So what I'm always thinking is, intoday's world where people think
they can look everything up withsome AI tool or maybe just, google
(03:29):
Maps and that you just ask chatGPT.
If you don't have any real skills andexpertise, you will never get into flow
because your brain operates differently.
And so that I think is an importantmessage in today's world because people
think, why should I learn anything?
I look it up and then the momentI learned it, maybe it's already
outdated and I need to refresh it.
(03:49):
But nothing beats true expertise.
Penijean Gracefire (03:53):
Yeah.
Friederike Fabritius (03:53):
And it actually changes your brain.
So yeah, I think it, you hit it spot onwith also, maybe that's not even just
neurofeedback, but also just simplythe idea of building skills and then
challenging yourself to the point whereyou always do something a bit more
complicated and a bit more difficult.
And the flow state, I've looked at somany scientific models of the flow state,
(04:17):
there's like the synchrony hypothesis.
There's the hypofrontality hypothesis,and some people say it's you know, your
subconscious in combination with yourprefrontal cortex, kind of like accessing
skills that you have available at asubconscious level, which you only have
when you're a true expert, to be honest.
So it's like there's some simple thingsthat I think everybody gets, but to
(04:40):
have that like more nuanced expertiserequires that you actually have skills.
And I think people underestimate theimportance of that and what it will do.
You cannot look everything up.
You may think you can, but youcan't and you will never get into
flow and flow is super rewarding.
It just makes you more productive.
So it kind of strips you also ofyour ability to, to have a joyful,
(05:04):
purposeful life because if you lookeverything up and never actually
create something on your own, itkeeps you empty inside I, I imagine.
Like you never createanything, you just consume.
That's why so many peoplehave mental health issues.
Penijean Gracefire (05:18):
Consumption, I'll make a subcategory in my Cs for consumption.
Friederike Fabritius (05:22):
Yeah, I just think that that's where the world is going.
People are consuming content andthen they use ChatGPT to create their
content, which isn't true content.
It's just like copying some otherstuff that somebody else has done.
It's not truly innovative, and Ithink you're an innovator, so you
understand the importance of that.
So actually that brings me to the point,if I wanted to trigger my creativity,
(05:46):
because I mean, there's performance inthe cognitive sense, but let's say I came
to you and I'm a creative person workingas an artist or in the movie industry
or whatever, is there like some way tostimulate the brain or activate the brain
or train the brain to maintain, likeare there certain brainwaves that I need
to kind of like hone, uh, to get that?
Penijean Gracefire (06:08):
So this is why at the beginning would say, what is it
you actually want to be able to do?
Because someone who wants to performhighly at a physical skill versus maybe
a mental or intellectual skill, there'sgoing to be different network capabilities
and different types of synchrony.
Or, you know, local recruitmentand performance in the brain.
(06:31):
There's gonna be differentpatterns that we would expect
to perform in certain ways.
This is why there's so many theories,is because people are coming at it with
different frameworks and saying, well,what happens when I want to play tennis?
What happens when I wantto ride a motorcycle?
You know, what happens when Iwant to really engage with people
when I'm speaking professionally?
(06:51):
I mean, these all have somethingin common, which is the capacity
to develop a skill and to engagesort of in a, in a modulated way.
But they're different paradigms evenin the brain, what we would expect to
network together to perform those things.
So identifying what it is we want tobe able to do is that beginning point.
So then the idea would be, rememberconnection, curiosity, and courage,
(07:15):
connection's first because everythingI'm trying to do with any feedback
or feed forward, photobiomodulation,neurofeedback, any of it, is
essentially to create connectivity.
So to remove barriers to connection, andthen to create a build infrastructure
that allows for information and engagementto happen in more efficient ways.
(07:38):
So we're really trying to removebarriers and build Autobahn.
Friederike Fabritius (07:42):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Penijean Gracefire (07:43):
So that travel and potentially speed can also happen.
Friederike Fabritius (07:48):
Are you saying, for example, in creativity, the
ability of different brain areas totalk to each other and kind of like
information speed in your brain?
Is there any way to traininformation speed in your brain?
You know, I think there's likemyelinization, so of course you want to
have that white matter, but is there likesome brain stimulation or neurofeedback
(08:10):
way to kind of train for speed?
Penijean Gracefire (08:12):
Absolutely.
Friederike Fabritius (08:13):
Yes.
Penijean Gracefire (08:14):
Yes.
Friederike Fabritius: Okay, how do you do that? (08:14):
undefined
I want to hear, I have not heard of that.
Penijean Gracefire (08:17):
So let's hang out in connection just for a moment.
So I am hyper simplifying, but I genuinelybelieve that almost everything that
we associate with performance, um, canfit into the idea of improving state
flexibility or improving processing speed.
And I think a lot of us think ofprocessing speed is just being able to
do a bunch of stuff in a line very fast.
(08:40):
When in actuality a lot of what we'recalling processing speed is being able
to do multiple things simultaneously.
Friederike Fabritius (08:47):
Mm-hmm.
But isn't that so, I mean, there'stask switching and then of course
there's passive multitasking, so thatsome things you can do automatically,
but are we sure it's able to do?
Are we able to do several things atonce that require the prefrontal cortex?
Penijean Gracefire (09:02):
You are absolutely correct because when I say being
able to do, um, multiple thingssimultaneously, what I mean is being
able to notice an account for awider array of data inputs to then
make more complex and sophisticateddecisions, but much more quickly.
So when I say doing things simultaneously,I don't mean doing clear, distinct
(09:26):
tasks all at the same time, right?
I mean, taking all the potential thingsyou could be considering and thinking
of, and then efficiently prioritizing andsequencing out those tasks so that you
can be more effective in that sequence.
Friederike Fabritius (09:41):
Right.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Penijean Gracefire (09:42):
And you also can potentially be more capable of shifting
between attentional demands as you'remaking those decisions because, you
know, writing an email, focusing onwriting an email is not about just like,
you know, triggering a little line ofemail shaped neurons that do email.
Friederike Fabritius (10:01):
Mm-hmm.
Penijean Gracefire (10:02):
For you to be able to focus on an email, you need to do
some very complex dual inhibition.
You need to inhibit all theother incoming distractions.
Mm-hmm.
And you need to inhibit all the potentialoutgoing impulses that you would rather
be doing besides writing an email.
Right.
It's actually a lot to keep trackof and requires a lot of resources.
Supporting the recruitment behaviorsyour brain does, right, t o resource
(10:25):
itself, spreading those resources around.
Like that's very much a, a connectivity,like there's a recruitment, but
then you gotta be able to prioritizeand allocate those resources in an
effective predictive regulatory way.
Friederike Fabritius: That makes a lot of sense. (10:38):
undefined
Penijean Gracefire (10:40):
And then once you get that resourcing in place, then
you've gotta have the capacity to sustainholding a lot of things simultaneously
becasue as the demands evolve andchange, you've got to adapt to it.
So the more you can kind of hold,like however many data bits you can
hold simultaneously in working memory.
Friederike Fabritius (10:59):
Yeah.
Penijean Gracefire (10:59):
It will then essentially be the ceiling of
how nuanced or sophisticated thedecisions and even your capability
of considering the variables.
Like that's how it's defined.
So for a lot of us, right, we're hittinga threshold, like we're, we're only able
to hold a limited amount of data bitssimultaneously in working memory, and
that's how we kind of get back lightthinking or difficulty with state shifting
(11:22):
or task shifting because you know, evenus trying to understand basic interaction
with people, I'm a me, you're a you.
You have a different experience than me.
You have an experience of me that isdifferent than my experience of me.
By the time we start actually just tryingto like basic empathy theory of mind.
(11:43):
Mm-hmm.
Just a conversation where there'scommunication between two people.
For that to be effective and efficient,you've gotta have two people who kind
of understand the other person's havinga different experience and they're
taking whatever information they'regiving them in the conversation,
they're trying to adapt, perceive,comprehend, you know, and then, and
then adjust what they're saying back.
(12:04):
Like that's actually quite a bit of data.
Try whole simultaneously.
Right?
But the people who do that wellare excellent communicators.
They pay attention to you.
They pay attention to context.
They're just doing so many thingsand then all that comes out of them
is the exact three sentences thatanswered your question perfectly,
understood your content and thosethree efficient sentences were a
(12:26):
function of tremendous amounts ofcomplex behavior in the background.
Friederike Fabritius (12:29):
So you just made me wonder, so I've seen a study in Nature,
I think that came out last year or thisyear on athletes who were able to enhance
working memory limits or like the workingmemory with some alpha training I think
they were doing, and it was in Nature.
So I loved seeing thoseneurofeedback studies in, in
(12:51):
those like respectable journals.
So I think if you're able to expand yourworking memory limit, that is pretty cool.
So how would you do that?
Penijean Gracefire (13:03):
State flexibility and processing speed as my two
cornerstone concepts concepts, right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, this is why I said it's important tosome degree what it is you're trying to
do with that working memory capability.
So if you want to play football, if youwant to ride a motorcycle very fast,
if you want to be an excellent verbaldebater or orator, all of these require
(13:25):
rapid, complex processing of a widevariety of data points simultaneously
to be able to make quick decisions, butwhich sensory inputs and how you integrate
them together will vary right based onfootball, motorcycle, debate skills.
So part of what we would considerwould be what are the actual maybe
(13:47):
functional networks that integratetogether the sensory inputs you're
taking in that you're trying to track?
How do we make a really excellentsupported through line for like
maybe auditory information, right?
For complex processing versuspotentially proprioception and balance.
Um, if you want to play football, you'vegot a regular 360 degree vigilance
(14:09):
mechanism that a lot of us wouldidentify with for a variety of reasons.
But the, what we're trying to prioritizein a football game, fast-paced football
game is gonna be quite differentthan what we try to prioritize
maybe riding a motorcycle at speed.
Friederike Fabritius (14:25):
Right, so you would make it specific to the activity
that you're trying to enhance.
So rather than like a blanketenhancing working memory setup,
you would be thinking, wheredoes the information come in?
Which brain networks are involved?
And then just make it specific to whateveryou're trying to become really good at.
That makes a lot of sense.
(14:46):
So like for me, I don't know, wouldyou record my brain while I make my
kids breakfast and I have like fivevoices talking to me at the same time?
Like, you know, like one kid says,oh, I want the peanut butter.
The other one says, mom,you need to sign that paper.
Then the other one says, oh,today I need my swimming clothes.
(15:06):
Then another one says, oh, I forgotto do my homework, can I do it now?
So my brain needs to process all ofthat and prioritize, so I'm thinking
it would be probably ideal to recordthat person's brain in, in a situation
like that and see what have you done.
Like, you know, for me, like 6:00 AMbreakfast, putting the QEG on or the, the,
(15:26):
the brain cap on and then seeing what kindof brain activity is getting in trouble
in that situation of like overload.
And then we could go in and say,okay, all that auditory information is
coming in all at once it's too much.
So then we could try to increase thatcapacity and then maybe some emotional
regulation and then maybe some planningof what to prioritize because it's
(15:47):
a difference whether, you know, likedifferent demands have different urgency.
Penijean Gracefire (15:53):
Yeah, that's true.
Friederike Fabritius (15:54):
So as a final question to you
that you see people doing withneurofeedback or brain stimulation
that you wish they would just stop?
Like is there something that annoys youor you feel like, oh, not this again.
Penijean Gracefire (16:09):
I would say the number one thing for me would be for people
to stop assuming that they're right.
Friederike Fabritius (16:15):
Uhhuh.
Penijean Gracefire (16:16):
The, the driving principle, I think behind a lot of things
that I do is this concept that I can'tlearn something that I already know.
Friederike Fabritius (16:23):
Yeah.
Penijean Gracefire (16:23):
And calling back to the idea of working
memory, not everybody's gonna havethat same amount of bandwidth.
And I think it's perfectly reasonablefor people to simplify down approaches
that feel accessible and understandableto them, and then apply those in
the ways that they grasp to thepeople that they're trying to help.
But ultimately, ultimately weare all quite different in how
(16:48):
we conceptualize each other andhow to interact with each other.
And so people, I think like what Iwould really love to see differently
would be more skill in elicitingaccurate information that reflects
what's going on with your personthey're trying to work with.
So not assuming that, you know,really what's going on without
(17:10):
a couple of different ways oftrying to clarify and, and elicit.
So asking better questions.
Mm-hmm.
To what it is they're telling you.
Right?
So then when you do design somethingand you're trying to help that person to
function in some, some, you know, in somebetter ways that they're de describing
to you and you understand hopefully.
Then as you are introducing yourparadigm and your approach, you
(17:34):
need to continuously elicit feedbackand then you need to listen and
regularly challenge your assumptionseven about what the feedback means.
Because there are gonna be people whodo not, um, respond to the particular
paradigms or designs that we make.
Mm-hmm.
Make the thing that we think should work.
We, we do it with them for a fewtimes, and either they res, they
(17:58):
kind of over respond, it's too much,they can't tolerate it, they need
more sort of ad adaptation or moregentle, or they don't react at all
and they say nothing's happening.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
Both of these are criticalelements of us, us evaluating
and adapting to what's happening.
And so what I see quite, what I seemore than I would like to see mm-hmm.
(18:21):
Are other providers who have aparadigm they work within, um, and
then they are not appropriatelyidentifying and screening out and
then supporting, maybe referringout people who are not responding
well to their particular paradigm.
Friederike Fabritius (18:37):
Right.
And so they have that like blanketapproach, feel they know it all, don't
ask enough questions and kind of thinkthey know what the patient needs and don't
notice when what they're doing is notworking or inappropriate for that person.
So what I love about this, I thinkyou're at the highest level of expertise,
(18:57):
you're like a real pro in the field.
But at the same time, you have thathumility and I think that's so important
that you're not just, you know, you'reactually listening to the patient
trying to, still staying curious andkind of that continuous improvement.
So you're not like, Iinvented this approach.
It always works.
It's the best.
Yeah, I think that's a very importantmessage that no matter how good you
(19:20):
are at something, you should alwayslisten to the feedback, not just the
neurofeedback, but like, see whetherit's working and whether you could do
it differently or better, and whetheryou're actually helping the person.
Um, because it's a very technical field,and so I think it's would be fairly
simple to have that very simplistic viewof like, on everybody who comes in, I do
(19:40):
this kind of training, boom, boom, boom.
And then I put them on that protocol andthe machine would almost do it like auto,
you could train some lab technicians, andthen people just go through these like
canned protocols when a reality that maynot be what that particular person needs.
I mean, people always say neurofeedbackis side effect free, but I, I have a
hard time believing this because forsomething effective, if you kind of do
(20:03):
the, a crazy approach, I think it canprobably also just make things worse.
That's my personal hunch that if somethingworks, you can also mess things up.
I think a little bit ofhumility when you treat other
people's brains goes a long way.
Yeah.
So
Penijean Gracefire (20:18):
I would agree.
That's why we've got connection.
Yeah.
Putting pieces together.
Yeah.
Curiosity, asking about what's going on.
But then courage, the courage to bewrong and not have all the answers.
Friederike Fabritius (20:31):
Yeah.
Penijean Gracefire (20:32):
Because that's how we learn.
Friederike Fabritius (20:34):
That's really cool.
So thank you so much, Penijean.
Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us.
I loved having you on, so thankyou so much for your time and
energy and, and yeah, I think it,everybody can feel that , it's not
just a job for you, it's a passion.
I think you can feel it when somebodyis really like into something and really
(20:56):
like trying to, to do it in the bestpossible way rather than just doing
the bare minimum of what's possible.
So thank you so much andum, talk to you soon.
Take care.
Bye.
Bye.
Hello everyone.
I'm here with Penijean Gracefire,innovator and very respected icon,
in the neurofeedback community.
Welcome to the show.
Hello.
Penijean Gracefire: Thank you for having me. (00:16):
undefined
Friederike Fabritius (00:18):
You know, I work with executives, so I'm always looking for
ways to give people more peak performanceor better resilience towards stress.
I think not just the executives need that.
Everyone who has a brain, uh,needs that no matter your age,
your profession, your background.
(00:39):
And so I would like to hear from you,if somebody comes to you and says, you
know, I'm a top athlete, or I lead a bigcompany, or I just want to be top of my
game in chess, or something like this.
Like, how do you help peopleto reach peak performance?
Penijean Gracefire (00:57):
Sure.
As we've discussed in previousconversation, the identification of
what it is they want to be able todo is always going to be crucial.
Friederike Fabritius (01:06):
Right.
Penijean Gracefire (01:06):
So depending on goals, our skill, even as a provider
and a designer of a paradigm for themthat's customized, is going to be reliant
on us being able to elicit informationthat really represents what they want.
So for example, if you are a highperformer, a lot of people will discuss
(01:27):
the idea of getting into that flow state.
Friederike Fabritius (01:29):
Exactly.
Yeah.
That's an interest of mine.
I have that fun fear and focusmodel that you need like fun,
fear, and focus to get into flow.
So I'm always interested in flow.
So how would you, for example,teach someone to, to get
into flow or more often?
Penijean Gracefire (01:47):
Sure, sure.
It's interesting, youhave a fun fear focus.
Because I have a connection,curiosity, courage.
Friederike Fabritius (01:55):
Ah, wow.
Perfect match.
Right, right.
Yeah.
Courage.
Yeah.
And I think, I'm pretty sure wecould match them with each other.
The F and the C.
Penijean Gracefire (02:03):
We really could because, um, fun, fear, and focus.
So, I mean, well, not to necessarilygo into the exercise immediately.
Mm-hmm.
I know both of us immediatelywant to engage in the mapping.
Um, but the, the principles thatunderlie, for example, connection,
curiosity, and courage, the ideais that, so if we're gonna consider
(02:24):
the barriers to achieving flow.
Friederike Fabritius (02:28):
Right.
Penijean Gracefire (02:28):
So to identify what flow is, I mean, there's a
lot of different ways to frame it.
One of the most popular ones is toconsider it a, a, an excellent matchup
between task challenge and skill.
Cause if something is too hardand we don't have the skills to
engage with it and to perform,then there that's not viable.
(02:48):
And if something's too easy anddoesn't really hold our attention,
isn't really intriguing orrewarding, also not really ideal.
And so flow as this concept of (02:56):
there's something I'm trying to do, it's
sufficiently challenging and engagingand interesting to me that I feel
I've gotta exert some certain amount.
Friederike Fabritius (03:06):
Exactly.
It needs to matter.
So you don't get into flow unlessthere's something at stake.
There needs to be a littlechallenge, a little bit of, you know,
getting outside your comfort zone.
And also it's, I think, veryhard to get into flow if you
have no skills, to be honest.
So what I'm always thinking is, intoday's world where people think
they can look everything up withsome AI tool or maybe just, google
(03:29):
Maps and that you just ask chatGPT.
If you don't have any real skills andexpertise, you will never get into flow
because your brain operates differently.
And so that I think is an importantmessage in today's world because people
think, why should I learn anything?
I look it up and then the momentI learned it, maybe it's already
outdated and I need to refresh it.
(03:49):
But nothing beats true expertise.
Penijean Gracefire (03:53):
Yeah.
Friederike Fabritius (03:53):
And it actually changes your brain.
So yeah, I think it, you hit it spot onwith also, maybe that's not even just
neurofeedback, but also just simplythe idea of building skills and then
challenging yourself to the point whereyou always do something a bit more
complicated and a bit more difficult.
And the flow state, I've looked at somany scientific models of the flow state,
(04:17):
there's like the synchrony hypothesis.
There's the hypofrontality hypothesis,and some people say it's you know, your
subconscious in combination with yourprefrontal cortex, kind of like accessing
skills that you have available at asubconscious level, which you only have
when you're a true expert, to be honest.
So it's like there's some simple thingsthat I think everybody gets, but to
(04:40):
have that like more nuanced expertiserequires that you actually have skills.
And I think people underestimate theimportance of that and what it will do.
You cannot look everything up.
You may think you can, but youcan't and you will never get into
flow and flow is super rewarding.
It just makes you more productive.
So it kind of strips you also ofyour ability to, to have a joyful,
(05:04):
purposeful life because if you lookeverything up and never actually
create something on your own, itkeeps you empty inside I, I imagine.
Like you never createanything, you just consume.
That's why so many peoplehave mental health issues.
Penijean Gracefire (05:18):
Consumption, I'll make a subcategory in my Cs for consumption.
Friederike Fabritius (05:22):
Yeah, I just think that that's where the world is going.
People are consuming content andthen they use ChatGPT to create their
content, which isn't true content.
It's just like copying some otherstuff that somebody else has done.
It's not truly innovative, and Ithink you're an innovator, so you
understand the importance of that.
So actually that brings me to the point,if I wanted to trigger my creativity,
(05:46):
because I mean, there's performance inthe cognitive sense, but let's say I came
to you and I'm a creative person workingas an artist or in the movie industry
or whatever, is there like some way tostimulate the brain or activate the brain
or train the brain to maintain, likeare there certain brainwaves that I need
to kind of like hone, uh, to get that?
Penijean Gracefire (06:08):
So this is why at the beginning would say, what is it
you actually want to be able to do?
Because someone who wants to performhighly at a physical skill versus maybe
a mental or intellectual skill, there'sgoing to be different network capabilities
and different types of synchrony.
Or, you know, local recruitmentand performance in the brain.
(06:31):
There's gonna be differentpatterns that we would expect
to perform in certain ways.
This is why there's so many theories,is because people are coming at it with
different frameworks and saying, well,what happens when I want to play tennis?
What happens when I wantto ride a motorcycle?
You know, what happens when Iwant to really engage with people
when I'm speaking professionally?
(06:51):
I mean, these all have somethingin common, which is the capacity
to develop a skill and to engagesort of in a, in a modulated way.
But they're different paradigms evenin the brain, what we would expect to
network together to perform those things.
So identifying what it is we want tobe able to do is that beginning point.
So then the idea would be, rememberconnection, curiosity, and courage,
(07:15):
connection's first because everythingI'm trying to do with any feedback
or feed forward, photobiomodulation,neurofeedback, any of it, is
essentially to create connectivity.
So to remove barriers to connection, andthen to create a build infrastructure
that allows for information and engagementto happen in more efficient ways.
(07:38):
So we're really trying to removebarriers and build Autobahn.
Friederike Fabritius (07:42):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Penijean Gracefire (07:43):
So that travel and potentially speed can also happen.
Friederike Fabritius (07:48):
Are you saying, for example, in creativity, the
ability of different brain areas totalk to each other and kind of like
information speed in your brain?
Is there any way to traininformation speed in your brain?
You know, I think there's likemyelinization, so of course you want to
have that white matter, but is there likesome brain stimulation or neurofeedback
(08:10):
way to kind of train for speed?
Penijean Gracefire (08:12):
Absolutely.
Friederike Fabritius (08:13):
Yes.
Penijean Gracefire (08:14):
Yes.
Friederike Fabritius: Okay, how do you do that? (08:14):
undefined
I want to hear, I have not heard of that.
Penijean Gracefire (08:17):
So let's hang out in connection just for a moment.
So I am hyper simplifying, but I genuinelybelieve that almost everything that
we associate with performance, um, canfit into the idea of improving state
flexibility or improving processing speed.
And I think a lot of us think ofprocessing speed is just being able to
do a bunch of stuff in a line very fast.
(08:40):
When in actuality a lot of what we'recalling processing speed is being able
to do multiple things simultaneously.
Friederike Fabritius (08:47):
Mm-hmm.
But isn't that so, I mean, there'stask switching and then of course
there's passive multitasking, so thatsome things you can do automatically,
but are we sure it's able to do?
Are we able to do several things atonce that require the prefrontal cortex?
Penijean Gracefire (09:02):
You are absolutely correct because when I say being
able to do, um, multiple thingssimultaneously, what I mean is being
able to notice an account for awider array of data inputs to then
make more complex and sophisticateddecisions, but much more quickly.
So when I say doing things simultaneously,I don't mean doing clear, distinct
(09:26):
tasks all at the same time, right?
I mean, taking all the potential thingsyou could be considering and thinking
of, and then efficiently prioritizing andsequencing out those tasks so that you
can be more effective in that sequence.
Friederike Fabritius (09:41):
Right.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Penijean Gracefire (09:42):
And you also can potentially be more capable of shifting
between attentional demands as you'remaking those decisions because, you
know, writing an email, focusing onwriting an email is not about just like,
you know, triggering a little line ofemail shaped neurons that do email.
Friederike Fabritius (10:01):
Mm-hmm.
Penijean Gracefire (10:02):
For you to be able to focus on an email, you need to do
some very complex dual inhibition.
You need to inhibit all theother incoming distractions.
Mm-hmm.
And you need to inhibit all the potentialoutgoing impulses that you would rather
be doing besides writing an email.
Right.
It's actually a lot to keep trackof and requires a lot of resources.
Supporting the recruitment behaviorsyour brain does, right, t o resource
(10:25):
itself, spreading those resources around.
Like that's very much a, a connectivity,like there's a recruitment, but
then you gotta be able to prioritizeand allocate those resources in an
effective predictive regulatory way.
Friederike Fabritius: That makes a lot of sense. (10:38):
undefined
Penijean Gracefire (10:40):
And then once you get that resourcing in place, then
you've gotta have the capacity to sustainholding a lot of things simultaneously
becasue as the demands evolve andchange, you've got to adapt to it.
So the more you can kind of hold,like however many data bits you can
hold simultaneously in working memory.
Friederike Fabritius (10:59):
Yeah.
Penijean Gracefire (10:59):
It will then essentially be the ceiling of
how nuanced or sophisticated thedecisions and even your capability
of considering the variables.
Like that's how it's defined.
So for a lot of us, right, we're hittinga threshold, like we're, we're only able
to hold a limited amount of data bitssimultaneously in working memory, and
that's how we kind of get back lightthinking or difficulty with state shifting
(11:22):
or task shifting because you know, evenus trying to understand basic interaction
with people, I'm a me, you're a you.
You have a different experience than me.
You have an experience of me that isdifferent than my experience of me.
By the time we start actually just tryingto like basic empathy theory of mind.
(11:43):
Mm-hmm.
Just a conversation where there'scommunication between two people.
For that to be effective and efficient,you've gotta have two people who kind
of understand the other person's havinga different experience and they're
taking whatever information they'regiving them in the conversation,
they're trying to adapt, perceive,comprehend, you know, and then, and
then adjust what they're saying back.
(12:04):
Like that's actually quite a bit of data.
Try whole simultaneously.
Right?
But the people who do that wellare excellent communicators.
They pay attention to you.
They pay attention to context.
They're just doing so many thingsand then all that comes out of them
is the exact three sentences thatanswered your question perfectly,
understood your content and thosethree efficient sentences were a
(12:26):
function of tremendous amounts ofcomplex behavior in the background.
Friederike Fabritius (12:29):
So you just made me wonder, so I've seen a study in Nature,
I think that came out last year or thisyear on athletes who were able to enhance
working memory limits or like the workingmemory with some alpha training I think
they were doing, and it was in Nature.
So I loved seeing thoseneurofeedback studies in, in
(12:51):
those like respectable journals.
So I think if you're able to expand yourworking memory limit, that is pretty cool.
So how would you do that?
Penijean Gracefire (13:03):
State flexibility and processing speed as my two
cornerstone concepts concepts, right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, this is why I said it's important tosome degree what it is you're trying to
do with that working memory capability.
So if you want to play football, if youwant to ride a motorcycle very fast,
if you want to be an excellent verbaldebater or orator, all of these require
(13:25):
rapid, complex processing of a widevariety of data points simultaneously
to be able to make quick decisions, butwhich sensory inputs and how you integrate
them together will vary right based onfootball, motorcycle, debate skills.
So part of what we would considerwould be what are the actual maybe
(13:47):
functional networks that integratetogether the sensory inputs you're
taking in that you're trying to track?
How do we make a really excellentsupported through line for like
maybe auditory information, right?
For complex processing versuspotentially proprioception and balance.
Um, if you want to play football, you'vegot a regular 360 degree vigilance
(14:09):
mechanism that a lot of us wouldidentify with for a variety of reasons.
But the, what we're trying to prioritizein a football game, fast-paced football
game is gonna be quite differentthan what we try to prioritize
maybe riding a motorcycle at speed.
Friederike Fabritius (14:25):
Right, so you would make it specific to the activity
that you're trying to enhance.
So rather than like a blanketenhancing working memory setup,
you would be thinking, wheredoes the information come in?
Which brain networks are involved?
And then just make it specific to whateveryou're trying to become really good at.
That makes a lot of sense.
(14:46):
So like for me, I don't know, wouldyou record my brain while I make my
kids breakfast and I have like fivevoices talking to me at the same time?
Like, you know, like one kid says,oh, I want the peanut butter.
The other one says, mom,you need to sign that paper.
Then the other one says, oh,today I need my swimming clothes.
(15:06):
Then another one says, oh, I forgotto do my homework, can I do it now?
So my brain needs to process all ofthat and prioritize, so I'm thinking
it would be probably ideal to recordthat person's brain in, in a situation
like that and see what have you done.
Like, you know, for me, like 6:00 AMbreakfast, putting the QEG on or the, the,
(15:26):
the brain cap on and then seeing what kindof brain activity is getting in trouble
in that situation of like overload.
And then we could go in and say,okay, all that auditory information is
coming in all at once it's too much.
So then we could try to increase thatcapacity and then maybe some emotional
regulation and then maybe some planningof what to prioritize because it's
(15:47):
a difference whether, you know, likedifferent demands have different urgency.
Penijean Gracefire (15:53):
Yeah, that's true.
Friederike Fabritius (15:54):
So as a final question to you
that you see people doing withneurofeedback or brain stimulation
that you wish they would just stop?
Like is there something that annoys youor you feel like, oh, not this again.
Penijean Gracefire (16:09):
I would say the number one thing for me would be for people
to stop assuming that they're right.
Friederike Fabritius (16:15):
Uhhuh.
Penijean Gracefire (16:16):
The, the driving principle, I think behind a lot of things
that I do is this concept that I can'tlearn something that I already know.
Friederike Fabritius (16:23):
Yeah.
Penijean Gracefire (16:23):
And calling back to the idea of working
memory, not everybody's gonna havethat same amount of bandwidth.
And I think it's perfectly reasonablefor people to simplify down approaches
that feel accessible and understandableto them, and then apply those in
the ways that they grasp to thepeople that they're trying to help.
But ultimately, ultimately weare all quite different in how
(16:48):
we conceptualize each other andhow to interact with each other.
And so people, I think like what Iwould really love to see differently
would be more skill in elicitingaccurate information that reflects
what's going on with your personthey're trying to work with.
So not assuming that, you know,really what's going on without
(17:10):
a couple of different ways oftrying to clarify and, and elicit.
So asking better questions.
Mm-hmm.
To what it is they're telling you.
Right?
So then when you do design somethingand you're trying to help that person to
function in some, some, you know, in somebetter ways that they're de describing
to you and you understand hopefully.
Then as you are introducing yourparadigm and your approach, you
(17:34):
need to continuously elicit feedbackand then you need to listen and
regularly challenge your assumptionseven about what the feedback means.
Because there are gonna be people whodo not, um, respond to the particular
paradigms or designs that we make.
Mm-hmm.
Make the thing that we think should work.
We, we do it with them for a fewtimes, and either they res, they
(17:58):
kind of over respond, it's too much,they can't tolerate it, they need
more sort of ad adaptation or moregentle, or they don't react at all
and they say nothing's happening.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
Both of these are criticalelements of us, us evaluating
and adapting to what's happening.
And so what I see quite, what I seemore than I would like to see mm-hmm.
(18:21):
Are other providers who have aparadigm they work within, um, and
then they are not appropriatelyidentifying and screening out and
then supporting, maybe referringout people who are not responding
well to their particular paradigm.
Friederike Fabritius (18:37):
Right.
And so they have that like blanketapproach, feel they know it all, don't
ask enough questions and kind of thinkthey know what the patient needs and don't
notice when what they're doing is notworking or inappropriate for that person.
So what I love about this, I thinkyou're at the highest level of expertise,
(18:57):
you're like a real pro in the field.
But at the same time, you have thathumility and I think that's so important
that you're not just, you know, you'reactually listening to the patient
trying to, still staying curious andkind of that continuous improvement.
So you're not like, Iinvented this approach.
It always works.
It's the best.
Yeah, I think that's a very importantmessage that no matter how good you
(19:20):
are at something, you should alwayslisten to the feedback, not just the
neurofeedback, but like, see whetherit's working and whether you could do
it differently or better, and whetheryou're actually helping the person.
Um, because it's a very technical field,and so I think it's would be fairly
simple to have that very simplistic viewof like, on everybody who comes in, I do
(19:40):
this kind of training, boom, boom, boom.
And then I put them on that protocol andthe machine would almost do it like auto,
you could train some lab technicians, andthen people just go through these like
canned protocols when a reality that maynot be what that particular person needs.
I mean, people always say neurofeedbackis side effect free, but I, I have a
hard time believing this because forsomething effective, if you kind of do
(20:03):
the, a crazy approach, I think it canprobably also just make things worse.
That's my personal hunch that if somethingworks, you can also mess things up.
I think a little bit ofhumility when you treat other
people's brains goes a long way.
Yeah.
So
Penijean Gracefire (20:18):
I would agree.
That's why we've got connection.
Yeah.
Putting pieces together.
Yeah.
Curiosity, asking about what's going on.
But then courage, the courage to bewrong and not have all the answers.
Friederike Fabritius (20:31):
Yeah.
Penijean Gracefire (20:32):
Because that's how we learn.
Friederike Fabritius (20:34):
That's really cool.
So thank you so much, Penijean.
Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us.
I loved having you on, so thankyou so much for your time and
energy and, and yeah, I think it,everybody can feel that , it's not
just a job for you, it's a passion.
I think you can feel it when somebodyis really like into something and really
(20:56):
like trying to, to do it in the bestpossible way rather than just doing
the bare minimum of what's possible.
So thank you so much andum, talk to you soon.
Take care.
Bye.
Bye.
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com