Managing ADHD with Professor John Ratey
In the last of their 3 conversations, Friederike Fabritius and Professor John Ratey dive deep into a discussion on ADHD and how to manage it. Due to the ADHD being influenced by neurotransmitters like dopamine and norepinephrine, John highlights exercise as a key and underutilized strategy for its management. The pair discuss the pros and cons of treating ADHD and other similar conditions with medications and emphasize the importance of ensuring that kids have adequate support when navigating these challenges. Friederike and John explore how ADHD presents differently in girls compared to boys, and how it is a potential “'superpower” when it comes to creativity and focus.Finally, John shares his thoughts on the use of neurofeedback in the management of ADHD symptoms.
00:32 Understanding ADHD: Symptoms and Brain Mechanisms
02:32 Managing ADHD: Exercise and Structure
05:31 ADHD as a Superpower: Harnessing Passion and Focus
09:34 Controversies and Treatments
14:36 Gender Differences in ADHD
17:02 Neurofeedback and ADHD
John Ratey (https://www.johnratey.com/) is an Associate Clinical Professor of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and an internationally recognized expert in Neuropsychiatry. He has published over 60 peer-reviewed articles, and 12 books published in 20 languages. With the publication of his bestseller, "Spark-The Revolutionary New Science of Exercise and the Brain," Dr. Ratey established himself as one of the world's foremost authorities on the brain-fitness connection in areas such as ADHD, Autism, Aging and Cognition.
Follow Friederike on LinkedIn to stay connected and up to date on her neurohacks.
And if you're looking for more brain-friendly insights be sure to subscribe to The Brain-Friendly Newsletter.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Friederike Fabritius (00:05):
Hello, I'm here today with Professor John Ratey.
A world expert, not only on ADHD but alsoon how exercise is good for your brain.
Hello, John.
Hi.
John Ratey (00:16):
Hi.
How are you?
Friederike Fabritius (00:17):
I am great.
Well, it's evening for me, but I'mstill, still like this is energizing.
So, thank you so much for being here.
I want to hear from you becauseyou're like really a world expert
on ADHD and the numbers are risingand a lot of people are struggling.
So I wanna hear from you, justas a short clarification, what is
ADHD and what's going on in thebrain of somebody who's affected?
John Ratey (00:42):
ADHD is a problem in holding your attention, containing your
attention, staying with something thatyou want to stay with or you need to
stay with instead of getting divertedand losing your attention in the moment.
It also involves managing your moods,managing your anxiety, all that has
(01:04):
a role to play with our attention.
The more we do that, thebetter our attention is.
Friederike Fabritius (01:10):
And, and brain-wise, is it a dopamine thing?
Is it a prefrontal cortex thing?
Like, what is the root cause?
John Ratey (01:18):
We've always looked for the root cause and we've always, been
wanting to place it at some particularpoint in the brain, but there are lots
of areas of the brain that are involved.
Friederike Fabritius (01:28):
Mm-hmm.
John Ratey (01:29):
And a lot of different hormones and neurotransmitters and
dopamine and norepinephrine are two of themajor ways of making our attention better.
And that's what our stimulants hitand, and our antidepressants that
work on ADHD they boost our dopamineand norepinephrine, but they probably
have other and more, uh, generaleffects on, on the brain as well.
(01:53):
So, attention is a huge part of thebrain and a huge part of how we evolve
to be, humans, uh, to pay attention andto stay with things and to finish our
task, and finish our thoughts and finishour sentences and not get distracted.
Friederike Fabritius (02:10):
So, I would like to hear if someone is a parent, uh,
who's listening and they have a childthat's just been diagnosed with ADHD and
I know there are probably many forms,but what would be your top advice?
What can people do?
How can you manage it?
Like, what are the best success strategiesboth for children but also for adults?
John Ratey (02:32):
This goes to my other passion in in life, and that is using exercise.
That's probably the number onepiece of advice, is to get moving.
Because this, what that does is itturns on the machinery in the brain
that has to do with thinking andmemory but especially with attention.
So, uh, in some people, who aretraining in athletics never know
(02:56):
they have attention deficit disorder.
And when they stop training, uhoh, then they have problems with
paying attention and have all theproblems that ADHD results with,
including addictions, including anger,Including depression and anxiety.
So, we, we know by managing, uh,our, our attention, we have a much
(03:18):
better life and a much better outcome.
See it as, as something that you can dosomething about, and you can manage it by
paying attention to what you need to do.
You need to structure your life.
You need to you know, maybe have a,an ADHD coach, or someone who can
guide you with that, if, if it'sreally bad because ADHD people have
(03:42):
lots of energy and lots of ideasand then they don't get to things.
They say, oh, it's, it's veryimportant that I do this.
And then time passes and they'redoing 26 other things and so
they need to stay focused.
And a good way to stay focusedis to set yourself a schedule.
To plan and know that you need to plan.
(04:05):
And the parents for the children,that's definitely, the recommendation.
But also for adults, they need to plan.
They need to have a structure and aschedule, so that they will accomplish
what they want to accomplish.
Friederike Fabritius (04:19):
Right.
So, exercise and then a schedule.
A structure.
So kind of keeping yourself accountable,but is someone with ADHD able to
structure themselves, or would yousay it's always best to involve
like a coach or a mentor or parent?
Like, I don't wanna get too personalhere, but you mentioned in your book
that you think that you have it as well,and I see you as hugely successful.
(04:43):
And so I just wonder is thatsomething you also do for yourself
or do you have somebody else whokind of keeps you structured?
John Ratey (04:50):
Both, and.
I learned to do it myself, but Ialso had many coaches and one of the
things, I've written 12 books, but alot of them are written with people.
And that's the other side ofrecommendation is don't worry alone.
Don't work alone.
And so, doing things togetherwill keep you with it.
(05:11):
It's a way of setting a schedule ifyou're working together with somebody.
Uh, and that's the only way Icould have written those books.
Friederike Fabritius (05:19):
I just think it's so powerful because it's a, there's
a lot of wisdom in there because youseem to be very effective at that and
have put a lot of thought into that,and it seems to be working for you.
So I think it's, it's valuable.
I would like to hear your take becausethere couple, couple of like hot buttons
with ADHD a couple of things that peoplekind of argue about or have different
(05:41):
opinions about, and one of them isthat idea of ADHD is a superpower.
Would you say that people with ADHDhave like special skills, or some
special talents, so they're justdifferent and excel in other things?
John Ratey (05:57):
Well, we know that most of our entrepreneurs have ADHD
or would be classified as ADHD.
Certainly in the, in the UnitedStates, the computers were
all developed by ADHD people.
Steve Jobs and, Bill Gates, Imean, they're card-carrying
members of the ADHD universe.
And many, many others in thatarena, entrepreneurs, thinkers, uh,
(06:20):
creators all have a tendency to bemore ADHD because they don't like
the limits set by society, so theywanna see more of what they can do.
There's so much energy within an ADDperson and, and I mean, they exude
the energy they have the energy theyget, they, you know, they, they,
(06:41):
they're distracted but when they get onsomething, boy, they, they hyperfocus,
we call it, and, and that's part of thesuperpower because they'll stick with it.
if they're excited enoughabout what their goal is.
And that's part of the advice to parentsand to ADD adults is to get things in
your life that you want to do, and thenyou can pursue them and stay with them.
(07:07):
And that's why if a child begins tohave an interest in playing the guitar,
well go with that with them, youknow, and not just say, oh no, well,
you have to do your math homework.
yes, they have to manage thatand, but you use that which they
want to do as something that yousupport and you show the value so
that they can really get into it.
Friederike Fabritius (07:29):
I think that's a beautiful message.
I mean, everybody should follow thatadvice, even the non ADHD people.
Because really that'swhen you're successful.
When you're really passionateabout something, you put in
the hours, it feels easy.
It's in line with your talents.
You get into flow.
I think that's an important message,but probably even more important
here because then you have somethingwhere you're really successful.
(07:49):
It's not just all a struggle.
You can create beautiful thingsand make something happen.
So that idea of hyperfocus, I thinkis also important because well,
I'm not an ADHD expert, but I thinkpeople always think that somebody with
ADHD is somebody who cannot focus.
If it doesn't interest them, maybe,but if it's something they're
really passionate about, there'shyperfocus, they really get it done.
(08:12):
Right?
John Ratey (08:12):
And that's what ADHD people have is lots and lots of passion.
Usually.
Usually.
Until it's suppressed enough by, you know,failure and there are problems that they
get going through school and through life.
But, you know, the, the passionis there and the passion leads
to the hyperfocus and leads tocreativity leads to doing well.
(08:36):
And so, you know, what we, we wroteabout superpowers, that's what we're
talking about is being able to grabonto the passion of what you're doing
so that you can, uh, you know, besuccessful and you can feel really
great about your life and about whoyou are, rather than seeing yourself
as so many ADHD kids see, get put down.
(08:58):
Oh, you can't sit still.
You, you're a bad kid.
Uh, you know, you can't do yourmath, you can't learn your German,
you can't learn, you know, whatever.
Mm-hmm.
And, and they feel bad.
So they're victims ofshame and humiliation.
And this then is the negativeside of ADHD because then they get
(09:18):
depressed and then they go to drugsand video games, and then they just,
you know, get lost with a diversionbecause life is not open for them.
Friederike Fabritius: Hmm, I I totally get it. (09:28):
undefined
So I have a final, like areaI would like to explore.
I think it's almost impossible to speakabout ADHD without thinking of Ritalin
and stimulants and, and these things.
And, I cannot think of another topicthat is as controversial and where people
have as broad of a spectrum of opinion.
(09:51):
I've heard experts say, and I'm justquoting here, like I, I don't know enough
about the topic to really have an opinion,so I just wanna hear your take on it.
Some people say it's just beinginvented by the pharma industry to
push like stimulants on, on the kids.
You know?
Other people say, you know, get themon Ritalin, and suddenly they're
having As, and finally it's working.
(10:13):
So, some people say itwill make you addicted.
You always need to raise the leveland other people say that when you
take Ritalin and you need it, thenthere's no tolerance development.
So I wanna hear your hot take on Ritalin.
When do you recommend it?
When do you think it'sbest not to take it?
Should you take it all your life?
Or can you maybe substitute, like exercisemore and then you need less Ritalin?
(10:36):
What's your message?
John Ratey (10:38):
All, all the things that you mentioned, like if you exercise more, you,
you might need less Ritalin, you know?
Because exercise produces in, in ourbrains the same neurotransmitters
that the medicine does, uh,dopamine and norepinephrine.
So you raise the level of, of thosenaturally by exercises, by meditation,
by getting excited about life.
(11:01):
Excited about what you're doing.
That's why it's easy to payattention if you have that.
Now but with medicine it's not ascience issue, it's a moral issue.
Just what you're talking about.
People have a moral issue about usingmedicine that affects the brain.
However, think about what we dowith stimulants, with smoking, with
(11:23):
energy drinks, with monster drinks.
There's many many things.
So, kids go out for coffee.
They, they have coffee in the morning,you know, and, and throughout the day.
Mm-hmm.
What are they doing?
They're treating their ADD, just, it'snot as effective as, as are our medicines.
And it has many more side effects.
(11:44):
Come on.
Monster drinks you know, causes allkinds of trouble with the, the rest
of your body and whereas the medicineis, is more of a guided missile.
And then there are those that say,no, you shouldn't treat it at all.
Well, what are you doing?
Especially for a kid.
Not to treat it.
(12:05):
And they're failing.
So what, the option is failure?
The option is shame and humiliation?
The option is a self-esteemthat's under the bus?
You know, that, uh, thatthey feel horrible.?
So they go through life nothaving that same joie de vivre
you know, that life is good.
Life is horrible.
And so they get depressed, they getanxious, they turn to video games,
(12:28):
they spend all their time on TikTokand on their phone, because they
need that diversion because theycan't accomplish what they need to
accomplish, then they can't pleasethe teachers or their parents, or
whoever it is that are judging them.
So, you know, I got in this argumentright from the beginning with people,
oh, medicine's going to change the brain.
(12:50):
Yeah.
Stress changes the brain.
Failure changes the brain.
Humiliation changes thebrain and changes it forever.
And so, what are you saying?
What are you doing?
Why are you going against this?
You know, it happens to be a drug.
Okay.
But so does coffee.
So is nicotine.
Nicotine is the best stimulant we got.
Friederike Fabritius (13:12):
Yeah, exactly.
Very powerful.
And yeah, I hear you there because ifyou don't treat it and then the kid
is not learning in school and, and hasthat humiliation and all these problems,
that will also have a negative impact onthe brain that can grow your amygdala.
You get all these stress hormones.
It can also traumatize you for life.
So it's not that one road is withoutside effects and the other one is with.
(13:37):
They both are.
So unless you have a, maybe a verymild version where you just exercise a
little bit and then you're fine becauselike, like a high functional ADHD as
I imagine as as many successful peoplehave that they're at a level where they
can somehow manage it, uh, with like,I don't know, drinking enough coffee or
exercising enough and things like that.
John Ratey (13:58):
If you have a high IQ and ADHD you'll find many
different avenues to, to get into.
But people with, with normal intelligence,it's gonna be more difficult.
So, uh, but even the high iQ peopleneed to manage their attention and, and
to, to stay with it and to train it sothat they can deal with the frustration
(14:22):
when they hit a brick wall or they,they, you know, start to divert their
thinking for this thing and that.
Friederike Fabritius (14:29):
I would like to just quickly ask you on two more
things and then I'll let you go.
It just, uh, made me curiouswhile I was listening to you.
Would you say that it oftenmanifests differently in women
versus men or girls versus boys?
Like is there, are there some typicalgender patterns here that you have seen?
Yeah, right from the beginning we,we noticed that the girls tend to
(14:54):
have more of the "space case", themore flitting of their attention
into this thing and that thing thanthe boys who, especially growing
up, they tend to be more impulsive.
They tend to be more acting out, sothey're much more easy to identify and
the girls, you know, girls are harder toidentify because they're more composed.
(15:18):
They're not causing trouble as much.
Mm-hmm.
John Ratey (15:21):
But that doesn't mean their brain isn't on the subject
that they're supposed to be on.
So it tends to manifest differently.
However, uh, nowadays we'rebeginning to recognize that, and
that's why you're seeing a bigincrease in the identification
of girls and women with ADHD.
And especially with women, you know,as aging with the hormonal changes,
(15:46):
and that can play a huge element in,disturbing the attention on its own.
Yeah.
So that, and, and throughout life, Imean, they need to pay attention to
their hormonal changes so that theycan manage their attention as well.
Friederike Fabritius (16:01):
So I see, so in women there's like that extra complication
that as you, for example, get older,you have to pay extra attention to
not lose your attention because that'slike a natural development anyhow.
And you know, dopamine, I imagineit's like dopamine, noradrenaline...
And those are also linked totestosterone to certain degree.
Yeah.
John Ratey (16:20):
Yeah.
Well, no, it's just in general,I, it's not, it's not that simple.
I mean.
You know, when you weretalking about, uh, estrogen and
progesterone and those changes.
Rapid changes during menses, duringpregnancy, during delivery, all
that, uh, and during menopause.
I mean, that, that's a big areawhere we see a lot of women who
(16:42):
finally recognize or recognize, oh,my, I can't pay attention anymore.
And yeah, part of it is, is thehormones, but part of it is also
just, uh, unlocking or showing thedevelopment of, of, attention issues.
Friederike Fabritius (16:57):
That's an interesting message and I, I think
it's good for people to know.
So thank you for this.
A final, uh, quick question (17:02):
what is your take on neurofeedback
for the management of ADHD?
Have you seen success cases?
Do you think it's just placebo?
Do you have any kind of opinion on that?
John Ratey (17:17):
Yes, I certainly have seen success cases, but I've also seen a lot
of cases where it's not successful wherethey go five days a week to neurofeedback
and, uh, yeah, you can train the brainand there's no question about it.
You can train the brain.
We know that, and that can lead tobetter attention for a lot of people.
(17:38):
You know, everythingis useful, uh, for ADD.
We have this idea, you mentioneddopamine and norepinephrine.
Yeah.
That's part of the story, but the brainis much more complicated than that.
And so it can help you develop theattention muscles a bit, you know,
and certainly, but so can beinginvolved in a sport, so can, uh,
(18:01):
you know, gymnastics, so can dance.
I mean, and yoga, they, theyalso to help train the attention
muscles in a different way.
And I'm not saying they're a substitutebut we know that these things really work.
Friederike Fabritius: Thank you so much for this. (18:16):
undefined
For everyone who's listening, I think, andyou can correct me if I'm wrong, you've
written two very popular books about this.
One is, your first one was Driven toDestruction with your co-author, and then
now you have ADHD 2.0, which I think isfrom 2021, like an updated take on ADHD
(18:36):
I recommend for everyone to check thatout because I think you have like a very
profound, a lot of expertise in that areaand a lot of people can benefit from that.
So thank you so much.
I really appreciate your time and I, Ilearned so much, so I I appreciate it.
Thank you so much.
John Ratey (18:55):
well, thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk and enjoyed
meeting you and talking with you.
Hello, I'm here today with Professor John Ratey.
A world expert, not only on ADHD but alsoon how exercise is good for your brain.
Hello, John.
Hi.
John Ratey (00:16):
Hi.
How are you?
Friederike Fabritius (00:17):
I am great.
Well, it's evening for me, but I'mstill, still like this is energizing.
So, thank you so much for being here.
I want to hear from you becauseyou're like really a world expert
on ADHD and the numbers are risingand a lot of people are struggling.
So I wanna hear from you, justas a short clarification, what is
ADHD and what's going on in thebrain of somebody who's affected?
John Ratey (00:42):
ADHD is a problem in holding your attention, containing your
attention, staying with something thatyou want to stay with or you need to
stay with instead of getting divertedand losing your attention in the moment.
It also involves managing your moods,managing your anxiety, all that has
(01:04):
a role to play with our attention.
The more we do that, thebetter our attention is.
Friederike Fabritius (01:10):
And, and brain-wise, is it a dopamine thing?
Is it a prefrontal cortex thing?
Like, what is the root cause?
John Ratey (01:18):
We've always looked for the root cause and we've always, been
wanting to place it at some particularpoint in the brain, but there are lots
of areas of the brain that are involved.
Friederike Fabritius (01:28):
Mm-hmm.
John Ratey (01:29):
And a lot of different hormones and neurotransmitters and
dopamine and norepinephrine are two of themajor ways of making our attention better.
And that's what our stimulants hitand, and our antidepressants that
work on ADHD they boost our dopamineand norepinephrine, but they probably
have other and more, uh, generaleffects on, on the brain as well.
(01:53):
So, attention is a huge part of thebrain and a huge part of how we evolve
to be, humans, uh, to pay attention andto stay with things and to finish our
task, and finish our thoughts and finishour sentences and not get distracted.
Friederike Fabritius (02:10):
So, I would like to hear if someone is a parent, uh,
who's listening and they have a childthat's just been diagnosed with ADHD and
I know there are probably many forms,but what would be your top advice?
What can people do?
How can you manage it?
Like, what are the best success strategiesboth for children but also for adults?
John Ratey (02:32):
This goes to my other passion in in life, and that is using exercise.
That's probably the number onepiece of advice, is to get moving.
Because this, what that does is itturns on the machinery in the brain
that has to do with thinking andmemory but especially with attention.
So, uh, in some people, who aretraining in athletics never know
(02:56):
they have attention deficit disorder.
And when they stop training, uhoh, then they have problems with
paying attention and have all theproblems that ADHD results with,
including addictions, including anger,Including depression and anxiety.
So, we, we know by managing, uh,our, our attention, we have a much
(03:18):
better life and a much better outcome.
See it as, as something that you can dosomething about, and you can manage it by
paying attention to what you need to do.
You need to structure your life.
You need to you know, maybe have a,an ADHD coach, or someone who can
guide you with that, if, if it'sreally bad because ADHD people have
(03:42):
lots of energy and lots of ideasand then they don't get to things.
They say, oh, it's, it's veryimportant that I do this.
And then time passes and they'redoing 26 other things and so
they need to stay focused.
And a good way to stay focusedis to set yourself a schedule.
To plan and know that you need to plan.
(04:05):
And the parents for the children,that's definitely, the recommendation.
But also for adults, they need to plan.
They need to have a structure and aschedule, so that they will accomplish
what they want to accomplish.
Friederike Fabritius (04:19):
Right.
So, exercise and then a schedule.
A structure.
So kind of keeping yourself accountable,but is someone with ADHD able to
structure themselves, or would yousay it's always best to involve
like a coach or a mentor or parent?
Like, I don't wanna get too personalhere, but you mentioned in your book
that you think that you have it as well,and I see you as hugely successful.
(04:43):
And so I just wonder is thatsomething you also do for yourself
or do you have somebody else whokind of keeps you structured?
John Ratey (04:50):
Both, and.
I learned to do it myself, but Ialso had many coaches and one of the
things, I've written 12 books, but alot of them are written with people.
And that's the other side ofrecommendation is don't worry alone.
Don't work alone.
And so, doing things togetherwill keep you with it.
(05:11):
It's a way of setting a schedule ifyou're working together with somebody.
Uh, and that's the only way Icould have written those books.
Friederike Fabritius (05:19):
I just think it's so powerful because it's a, there's
a lot of wisdom in there because youseem to be very effective at that and
have put a lot of thought into that,and it seems to be working for you.
So I think it's, it's valuable.
I would like to hear your take becausethere couple, couple of like hot buttons
with ADHD a couple of things that peoplekind of argue about or have different
(05:41):
opinions about, and one of them isthat idea of ADHD is a superpower.
Would you say that people with ADHDhave like special skills, or some
special talents, so they're justdifferent and excel in other things?
John Ratey (05:57):
Well, we know that most of our entrepreneurs have ADHD
or would be classified as ADHD.
Certainly in the, in the UnitedStates, the computers were
all developed by ADHD people.
Steve Jobs and, Bill Gates, Imean, they're card-carrying
members of the ADHD universe.
And many, many others in thatarena, entrepreneurs, thinkers, uh,
(06:20):
creators all have a tendency to bemore ADHD because they don't like
the limits set by society, so theywanna see more of what they can do.
There's so much energy within an ADDperson and, and I mean, they exude
the energy they have the energy theyget, they, you know, they, they,
(06:41):
they're distracted but when they get onsomething, boy, they, they hyperfocus,
we call it, and, and that's part of thesuperpower because they'll stick with it.
if they're excited enoughabout what their goal is.
And that's part of the advice to parentsand to ADD adults is to get things in
your life that you want to do, and thenyou can pursue them and stay with them.
(07:07):
And that's why if a child begins tohave an interest in playing the guitar,
well go with that with them, youknow, and not just say, oh no, well,
you have to do your math homework.
yes, they have to manage thatand, but you use that which they
want to do as something that yousupport and you show the value so
that they can really get into it.
Friederike Fabritius (07:29):
I think that's a beautiful message.
I mean, everybody should follow thatadvice, even the non ADHD people.
Because really that'swhen you're successful.
When you're really passionateabout something, you put in
the hours, it feels easy.
It's in line with your talents.
You get into flow.
I think that's an important message,but probably even more important
here because then you have somethingwhere you're really successful.
(07:49):
It's not just all a struggle.
You can create beautiful thingsand make something happen.
So that idea of hyperfocus, I thinkis also important because well,
I'm not an ADHD expert, but I thinkpeople always think that somebody with
ADHD is somebody who cannot focus.
If it doesn't interest them, maybe,but if it's something they're
really passionate about, there'shyperfocus, they really get it done.
(08:12):
Right?
John Ratey (08:12):
And that's what ADHD people have is lots and lots of passion.
Usually.
Usually.
Until it's suppressed enough by, you know,failure and there are problems that they
get going through school and through life.
But, you know, the, the passionis there and the passion leads
to the hyperfocus and leads tocreativity leads to doing well.
(08:36):
And so, you know, what we, we wroteabout superpowers, that's what we're
talking about is being able to grabonto the passion of what you're doing
so that you can, uh, you know, besuccessful and you can feel really
great about your life and about whoyou are, rather than seeing yourself
as so many ADHD kids see, get put down.
(08:58):
Oh, you can't sit still.
You, you're a bad kid.
Uh, you know, you can't do yourmath, you can't learn your German,
you can't learn, you know, whatever.
Mm-hmm.
And, and they feel bad.
So they're victims ofshame and humiliation.
And this then is the negativeside of ADHD because then they get
(09:18):
depressed and then they go to drugsand video games, and then they just,
you know, get lost with a diversionbecause life is not open for them.
Friederike Fabritius: Hmm, I I totally get it. (09:28):
undefined
So I have a final, like areaI would like to explore.
I think it's almost impossible to speakabout ADHD without thinking of Ritalin
and stimulants and, and these things.
And, I cannot think of another topicthat is as controversial and where people
have as broad of a spectrum of opinion.
(09:51):
I've heard experts say, and I'm justquoting here, like I, I don't know enough
about the topic to really have an opinion,so I just wanna hear your take on it.
Some people say it's just beinginvented by the pharma industry to
push like stimulants on, on the kids.
You know?
Other people say, you know, get themon Ritalin, and suddenly they're
having As, and finally it's working.
(10:13):
So, some people say itwill make you addicted.
You always need to raise the leveland other people say that when you
take Ritalin and you need it, thenthere's no tolerance development.
So I wanna hear your hot take on Ritalin.
When do you recommend it?
When do you think it'sbest not to take it?
Should you take it all your life?
Or can you maybe substitute, like exercisemore and then you need less Ritalin?
(10:36):
What's your message?
John Ratey (10:38):
All, all the things that you mentioned, like if you exercise more, you,
you might need less Ritalin, you know?
Because exercise produces in, in ourbrains the same neurotransmitters
that the medicine does, uh,dopamine and norepinephrine.
So you raise the level of, of thosenaturally by exercises, by meditation,
by getting excited about life.
(11:01):
Excited about what you're doing.
That's why it's easy to payattention if you have that.
Now but with medicine it's not ascience issue, it's a moral issue.
Just what you're talking about.
People have a moral issue about usingmedicine that affects the brain.
However, think about what we dowith stimulants, with smoking, with
(11:23):
energy drinks, with monster drinks.
There's many many things.
So, kids go out for coffee.
They, they have coffee in the morning,you know, and, and throughout the day.
Mm-hmm.
What are they doing?
They're treating their ADD, just, it'snot as effective as, as are our medicines.
And it has many more side effects.
(11:44):
Come on.
Monster drinks you know, causes allkinds of trouble with the, the rest
of your body and whereas the medicineis, is more of a guided missile.
And then there are those that say,no, you shouldn't treat it at all.
Well, what are you doing?
Especially for a kid.
Not to treat it.
(12:05):
And they're failing.
So what, the option is failure?
The option is shame and humiliation?
The option is a self-esteemthat's under the bus?
You know, that, uh, thatthey feel horrible.?
So they go through life nothaving that same joie de vivre
you know, that life is good.
Life is horrible.
And so they get depressed, they getanxious, they turn to video games,
(12:28):
they spend all their time on TikTokand on their phone, because they
need that diversion because theycan't accomplish what they need to
accomplish, then they can't pleasethe teachers or their parents, or
whoever it is that are judging them.
So, you know, I got in this argumentright from the beginning with people,
oh, medicine's going to change the brain.
(12:50):
Yeah.
Stress changes the brain.
Failure changes the brain.
Humiliation changes thebrain and changes it forever.
And so, what are you saying?
What are you doing?
Why are you going against this?
You know, it happens to be a drug.
Okay.
But so does coffee.
So is nicotine.
Nicotine is the best stimulant we got.
Friederike Fabritius (13:12):
Yeah, exactly.
Very powerful.
And yeah, I hear you there because ifyou don't treat it and then the kid
is not learning in school and, and hasthat humiliation and all these problems,
that will also have a negative impact onthe brain that can grow your amygdala.
You get all these stress hormones.
It can also traumatize you for life.
So it's not that one road is withoutside effects and the other one is with.
(13:37):
They both are.
So unless you have a, maybe a verymild version where you just exercise a
little bit and then you're fine becauselike, like a high functional ADHD as
I imagine as as many successful peoplehave that they're at a level where they
can somehow manage it, uh, with like,I don't know, drinking enough coffee or
exercising enough and things like that.
John Ratey (13:58):
If you have a high IQ and ADHD you'll find many
different avenues to, to get into.
But people with, with normal intelligence,it's gonna be more difficult.
So, uh, but even the high iQ peopleneed to manage their attention and, and
to, to stay with it and to train it sothat they can deal with the frustration
(14:22):
when they hit a brick wall or they,they, you know, start to divert their
thinking for this thing and that.
Friederike Fabritius (14:29):
I would like to just quickly ask you on two more
things and then I'll let you go.
It just, uh, made me curiouswhile I was listening to you.
Would you say that it oftenmanifests differently in women
versus men or girls versus boys?
Like is there, are there some typicalgender patterns here that you have seen?
Yeah, right from the beginning we,we noticed that the girls tend to
(14:54):
have more of the "space case", themore flitting of their attention
into this thing and that thing thanthe boys who, especially growing
up, they tend to be more impulsive.
They tend to be more acting out, sothey're much more easy to identify and
the girls, you know, girls are harder toidentify because they're more composed.
(15:18):
They're not causing trouble as much.
Mm-hmm.
John Ratey (15:21):
But that doesn't mean their brain isn't on the subject
that they're supposed to be on.
So it tends to manifest differently.
However, uh, nowadays we'rebeginning to recognize that, and
that's why you're seeing a bigincrease in the identification
of girls and women with ADHD.
And especially with women, you know,as aging with the hormonal changes,
(15:46):
and that can play a huge element in,disturbing the attention on its own.
Yeah.
So that, and, and throughout life, Imean, they need to pay attention to
their hormonal changes so that theycan manage their attention as well.
Friederike Fabritius (16:01):
So I see, so in women there's like that extra complication
that as you, for example, get older,you have to pay extra attention to
not lose your attention because that'slike a natural development anyhow.
And you know, dopamine, I imagineit's like dopamine, noradrenaline...
And those are also linked totestosterone to certain degree.
Yeah.
John Ratey (16:20):
Yeah.
Well, no, it's just in general,I, it's not, it's not that simple.
I mean.
You know, when you weretalking about, uh, estrogen and
progesterone and those changes.
Rapid changes during menses, duringpregnancy, during delivery, all
that, uh, and during menopause.
I mean, that, that's a big areawhere we see a lot of women who
(16:42):
finally recognize or recognize, oh,my, I can't pay attention anymore.
And yeah, part of it is, is thehormones, but part of it is also
just, uh, unlocking or showing thedevelopment of, of, attention issues.
Friederike Fabritius (16:57):
That's an interesting message and I, I think
it's good for people to know.
So thank you for this.
A final, uh, quick question (17:02):
what is your take on neurofeedback
for the management of ADHD?
Have you seen success cases?
Do you think it's just placebo?
Do you have any kind of opinion on that?
John Ratey (17:17):
Yes, I certainly have seen success cases, but I've also seen a lot
of cases where it's not successful wherethey go five days a week to neurofeedback
and, uh, yeah, you can train the brainand there's no question about it.
You can train the brain.
We know that, and that can lead tobetter attention for a lot of people.
(17:38):
You know, everythingis useful, uh, for ADD.
We have this idea, you mentioneddopamine and norepinephrine.
Yeah.
That's part of the story, but the brainis much more complicated than that.
And so it can help you develop theattention muscles a bit, you know,
and certainly, but so can beinginvolved in a sport, so can, uh,
(18:01):
you know, gymnastics, so can dance.
I mean, and yoga, they, theyalso to help train the attention
muscles in a different way.
And I'm not saying they're a substitutebut we know that these things really work.
Friederike Fabritius: Thank you so much for this. (18:16):
undefined
For everyone who's listening, I think, andyou can correct me if I'm wrong, you've
written two very popular books about this.
One is, your first one was Driven toDestruction with your co-author, and then
now you have ADHD 2.0, which I think isfrom 2021, like an updated take on ADHD
(18:36):
I recommend for everyone to check thatout because I think you have like a very
profound, a lot of expertise in that areaand a lot of people can benefit from that.
So thank you so much.
I really appreciate your time and I, Ilearned so much, so I I appreciate it.
Thank you so much.
John Ratey (18:55):
well, thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk and enjoyed
meeting you and talking with you.
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com