In the final of 3 interviews with Dr. Jeff Tarrant and Friederike Fabritius, the pair discuss various brain stimulation techniques. They examine how these techniques, such as audio-visual entertainment and other consumer-friendly technologies, can be used to address everyday issues like stress, focus, and sleep. Dr. Tarrant explains the science behind brainwave entrainment and its applications for relaxation, cognitive enhancement, and overall mental well-being. They look at the potential for using these methods as learning tools to achieve states of relaxation and focus more naturally over time. Listeners will learn practical, science-based approaches to enhancing cognitive control and their overall mental health from Dr. Tarrant's insights.
00:00 Introduction and Welcome
01:20 Exploring Brain Stimulation Techniques
04:35 Understanding Audio-Visual Entrainment
10:34 Combining Brain Stimulation with Neurofeedback
14:33 Binaural Beats vs. Isochronic Tones
17:53 Practical Tips and Resources
19:34 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Follow Friederike on LinkedIn to stay connected and up to date on her neurohacks.
And if you're looking for more brain-friendly insights be sure to subscribe to The Brain-Friendly Newsletter.
Dr. Jeff Tarrant is a pioneering neuroscientist, licensed psychologist, and expert in consciousness research, specializing in the intersection of meditation, brainwave technology, and intuitive abilities. He is the founder and director of the NeuroMeditation Institute in Eugene, OR, where he explores how technology-based interventions and meditative states can enhance mental health and cognitive function. Board-certified in neurofeedback, Dr. Tarrant’s research focuses on the brainwave changes associated with contemplative practices, altered states of consciousness, and technology-based interventions. He is the author of Meditation Interventions to Rewire the Brain
Websites: www.neuromeditationinstitute.com
Facebook: @NeuroMeditation
Youtube: @neuromeditationinstitute
Books: Meditation Interventions to Rewire the Brain
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Friederike Fabritius:
Hello and welcome everyone. (00:05):
undefined
I'm here with Dr. Jeff Tarrant,founder and director of the
Neuromeditation Institute.
Hello, Jeff.
Jeff Tarrant (00:13):
Hi, how are you?
Friederike Fabritius (00:14):
Oh, I'm great.
Learning more about neurofeedbackand then how to gain greater
cognitive control, it's kind ofan obsession of mine, I must say.
Because I think that's what we reallyneed, that, that inner freedom.
And so I wanted to pick yourbrain on a topic that I don't
see many people talking about.
(00:35):
So, back when I was studying neuroscience,I know some people were doing
transcranial magnetic stimulation and
like all kinds of experiments
where you would turn off certain areas
of the brain or stimulate them.
I was always a subject in experimentsbecause as a psychology student you kind
of volunteer to your peers' crazy studies.
(00:57):
But this is the one where I alwayssaid like, you do your brain
stimulation, I pass on that one.
Like I'm, I'm cool with the neurofeedback,but like to stimulate the brain, I
feel it's very interesting because it'sso effective but nobody's doing it.
So I know you're somebodywho's actually very well versed
in these kind of techniques.
(01:18):
So I want to hear from you about brainstimulation, but not maybe in the
clinical setting of like an experiment,but more like, let's say if I came
into your practice and I want to becomeless stressed and maybe focus more,
or I want to sleep better, like theseeveryday problems that everybody has,
how could brain stimulation help me?
Jeff Tarrant (01:39):
Yeah.
Let me do a little bit ofexplaining how this stuff works.
Um, so, you know, really what we'retalking about with brain stimulation
is most of the techniques, most ofthe tools that are out there are using
some sort of repetitive signal that'slike, sort of an on and off signal.
It's usually some sort of stimulationthat is directly affecting the
(02:01):
brainwave functioning and we canaffect the brain lots of ways.
We can use direct current, we canuse alternating current, we can
use pulsed electromagnetic, we canuse light and sound, we can use
photobiomodulation, which is light-near infrared light and red light.
So, we can affect the brain and the brainfunctioning with lots of different tools.
(02:23):
And what we want of course, is that ifthe brain is stuck in a certain pattern
that's maybe not particularly helpful,can we use these technologies and these
techniques to sort of nudge the brain?
We're kind of poking it, and trying toget it in a certain direction, either
to activate certain brainwave patternsor certain states or maybe to quiet some
(02:45):
things down depending on what's happening.
And so, most of the technologies I useare more consumer model technologies.
So they're things that I use inmy office, but they're also things
that people can buy and use at home.
So it's a little different than,techniques that you might use in
a hospital setting or, like youwere talking about transcranial
(03:06):
magnetic stimulation, right?
Yeah.
And, and that's a whole crazyexpensive, complicated thing.
It's cool.
Right.
But, you know, it's not somethingeverybody has access to.
Friederike Fabritius (03:16):
No.
And so you are saying people can buya device and use at home, for example.
So for me, let's say I come in andwhat happens to me often is that
I sometimes get so excited about atopic , I think what I would love to
do is to be able to instantly relax.
Let's say I am like, all workedup, had a lot going on, and then
(03:38):
I just want to like, boom, gointo recovery mode immediately.
I think that is, for example, somethinga lot of my clients would love to
be able to do because they're allvery busy, they do tons of stuff,
but then they have trouble sleeping.
Not all of them, but a lot.
And so I wonder, if I came into yourpractice and I was saying, I'm very
(04:00):
busy, do lots of things, but I want to beable to like, recover and relax whenever
I need it, what could we be doing?
Jeff Tarrant (04:08):
Yeah, I mean, you know, there, there would be a
couple of different techniquesthat I would think about.
Probably one of my favorites andI'll talk about that first because I
think it would, it might make sensewith the, the little scenario you
set up, but it's using somethingcalled, audio visual entrainment.
And, you know, I actually happen tohave a set of these glasses sitting
here, but so it's usually using someglasses that look something like this.
(04:31):
I, I joke that it's like a bad1980s sci-fi set of glasses.
Right.
Friederike Fabritius (04:38):
So for anybody watching on YouTube, you can actually
see the crazy visual- audio, brainentrainment setup that Jeff is showing.
Jeff Tarrant (04:46):
And then on the inside of the glasses, so there's this shield
and there's actually four lights oneach side, kind of behind the shield.
And so what happens is you plug these,these glasses into either your computer
or a special little box, a controllerbox, and you pick a program based on
(05:06):
what you are wanting your brain to do.
For example, in your situation you said,okay, I wanna recover, I wanna relax.
So, you know, we know thatcertain brainwaves are
better for that than others.
So for example, theta brainwaves oralpha brainwaves, something like that.
Well, you could pick a program that'sdesigned to entrain alpha brain waves.
(05:30):
So alpha is between 8and 12 cycles per second.
That's the speed of the brainwave.
And so what happens, you put these glasseson and the lights are gonna flicker at
somewhere between 8 and 12 times a second.
So the lights are flickering andyou know, you've got headphones
on and there's tones that match.
So audio-visual entrainment.
(05:51):
And then what happens is your brainstarts to follow that pattern.
So a frequency following effect, right?
So your brain will follow that pattern.
So if I'm pulsing something 10 timesa second, the brain starts making more
brainwave activity at 10 cycles persecond, which is alpha, which then has
sort of a relaxing, quieting effect.
(06:12):
So we can essentially pullthe brain toward the frequency
that we want it to move toward.
You know, alpha's a really good one.
You know, but you canuse it for sleep, right?
You could pull the brain down intoa delta brainwave, a really slow
brainwave, or we might use it for brainbrightening for like the elderly, right?
If they're starting to kind of losesome cognitive functioning , or
(06:34):
ADHD where we can perk the brain up.
Use a faster brainwave.
Right?
Friederike Fabritius (06:40):
Would that be like beta or gamma or, or what?
Jeff Tarrant (06:44):
Yep.
Friederike Fabritius: For that kind of stuff. (06:44):
undefined
Because I think that's also somethinga lot of people are interested in, kind
of like enhancing cognitive performance.
So what would you use therewith ADHD or like to prevent
dementia or something like that?
Jeff Tarrant (07:00):
Yeah.
You would use something inthe beta frequency range.
For the glasses, a lot of peoplelike things between 14 and 18 hertz.
Sometimes if you get much fasterthan that, people might feel
a little bit anxious 'causeit's really, it's really fast.
Right.
However, gamma, which is thefastest also works really well.
And the interesting thing about gammais there's some other research, and
(07:21):
I'm sure you're aware of it, but, gammafrequencies almost no matter how you
get it into the brain and body seemsto have a, a, anti-inflammatory effect.
And so there may be some additionalbenefit from using gamma frequencies.
So, it's perking the brain up,but it may also have some other
effects that are beneficial as well.
Friederike Fabritius (07:43):
That's really cool because I think we can all need that.
Very often people want to relax or theywant to focus, but they just cannot.
Yeah.
Right.
And that seems like sucha simple way to, to do it.
And so is that some kind oflike the entrainment, is that
some kind of physics thing?
Like why does my brainpick up these frequencies?
(08:04):
Because I was just thinking if I gosomewhere and there's certain music
playing, there's probably a lot ofentrainment going on in the supermarket.
Because they play certain music thatmakes me buy more stuff or like, no,
I'm just thinking, you know, likeit's a way to influence your brain.
Jeff Tarrant (08:20):
Yeah, for sure.
And, and you know, and certainly,I mean, everybody can relate to
that with different kinds of music.
You know, if, if you're listeningto Native American flute music, it's
gonna cause you to feel a certain way.
You know?
Whereas if you're listening to some sortof heavy metal or something that's gonna
cause you to feel a very different way.
Right?
So we know that even just musicand tone influences how we feel.
(08:44):
This is going just a little bitfurther because of that repetitive
stimuli, which we don't seethat in normal types of music.
Right?
You know, a just sort ofon and off, uh, signal.
Right.
And you know, the way that it works is,there is this thing in the brain, it's
called the frequency following effect,that the brain will follow frequencies.
(09:04):
Another way, again, without gettingtoo complicated, you know, there's
things that happen in the brain, sortof a, a, a visual and auditory evoked
potential that when you present thebrain with a stimuli, whatever it is,
in this case, it's a flash of light ora sound or whatever, a few milliseconds
later, the brain responds to that.
(09:25):
So if you keep presenting itwith information, the brain
keeps responding, right?
And so it's essentially tricking thebrain into matching that frequency.
This is one of my favorite tools, I'vebeen using it for probably 25 years
and I, I joke sometimes that it's like,you know, I probably work myself out
of a job half the time because somebodycomes in and they say, you know, hey,
(09:46):
I've got this or that issue, or this iswhat I'm looking for, and I'm like, you
know what, you could go buy one of thesethings and use it every day instead of
coming in and paying me twice a week
Friederike Fabritius (09:56):
Here's, one question I have about this.
Yeah.
So there are two questions actually.
With neurofeedback, what I love about itis that it's basically just a learning
experience you're creating for yourself.
So over time you gainmore cognitive control.
So it's like not themachine doing it to you.
Right.
(10:16):
Your brain learns.
So the way I think as a psychologistnow I'm thinking like, huh, this
thing is like making my brain doit, which to me, I always think it's
good to have that self-efficacy andthat feeling that like, Hey, I made
my brain do something , like it's acool feeling right when you succeed.
So can this be combined?
(10:38):
The way I would set it up, and nowyou tell me if you think about this
differently, but I was just thinking,can you maybe condition yourself so
that, for example, right before youplay a certain program, you give
yourself like a cue so that you dosome kind of classical conditioning.
So let's say before I do the relaxprogram, I give myself a certain
(10:58):
sound or some signal so thatwhenever I play that signal, my
brain learns (11:02):
now we're gonna relax.
Because I was thinking if I had thoseglasses and they worked really well, and
then let's say I am on a trip and I forgotto pack them, is there a way to turn
this into a learning experience so thatover time you can make your brain do that?
Or do you always need the glasses?
Jeff Tarrant (11:20):
Yeah, it's an interesting question.
And, you know, I, I don't have any directevidence to support you know, that idea
of kind of a pairing, uh, to createsome sort of an association where you
can get the brain in that state, butbased on everything else we know about
how the brain works, that should work.
Right?
You know, the, the brain is verysusceptible to those kinds of connections.
(11:44):
And so, you know, if you pair somesort of a, a cue with that state,
it should theoretically work.
The other thing that we notice isthat even though it's not the same
as neurofeedback, where you'reteaching the brain something, what
we notice is that when people usethe glasses consistently at, at the
(12:05):
beginning at least, right, so maybeseveral times a week or, or whatever.
That at some point it's almost likethey don't need the glasses anymore
or they don't need it as consistently.
So like somehow they've learnedhow to maintain that state
for longer periods of time.
(12:25):
And so it's interesting because onthe surface it doesn't make sense,
but I think it may be a learningprocess that people are learning what
that feels like and learning how tostay in that state more consistently.
Even if it's unconscious, that may notbe a conscious thing that they're doing.
But we see that a lot.
You know, people will start out using itevery day of the week for three months,
(12:47):
and then the next thing you know, they'rekind of like, eh, I don't think I need it.
And it's like, interesting,like, what happened?
Right?
Like something happened.
Friederike Fabritius (12:54):
No, but that makes a lot of sense because I think we
have something similar in neurofeedbackthat sometimes your brain just
learns, oh, that feels really good.
That's a very nice state to be in.
Here's how I make those brainwaves.
And then you even experience them inother settings where you don't have your
device and you don't get any feedback.
So I mean, subconsciousimplicit learning is huge.
(13:17):
I mean, most of the brain activitysubconscious, so it's really reassuring.
So, maybe one more questionbefore we thank you for today.
I know a lot of people use binaural beats.
Is that also a similar thing?
Jeff Tarrant (13:32):
Uh, it's similar.
It's a little bit different, you know, sobinaural beats, of course are audio only.
And the, the type of stimulationwe were just describing is,
is referred to as isochronic.
So it's that kind of on and off, dada da da da da da da, so that's,
that's what we're describing.
Binaural beats are actually takingtwo offset frequencies of audio
(13:56):
information and putting one inthe left ear and one in the right.
And then the brain does some sort ofmagical, mysterious subtraction process
where it will look at the differencebetween those two frequencies, and,
and sort of create sort of a ghostfrequency that your brain will follow.
Now, I've looked at some of the researchon binaural beats, and from what I can
(14:19):
tell, it doesn't seem to be as effectiveat entraining as the isochronic tones.
So those on and off signals seemto be more effective for getting
to a specific brain state, whateveryou're, you're trying to do.
However, there does seem to besomething about the binaural process
that is very relaxing for most people.
(14:40):
I'm not sure it has anything todo with the brainwaves itself.
I don't know what it is, butit seems to just naturally have
a relaxing state for people.
So what you see with some complicatedaudio engineer programs is
they'll start to combine things.
So there may be some isochroniccomponents, there may be some binaural
components, and they're using other thingsthat honestly, I don't understand, of
(15:04):
ways to, you know, entrain the brain.
So people are getting quitesophisticated with this work.
And so the audio certainly works, right?
You can find these thingson YouTube or whatever.
You know, you can make 'em yourself.
They're not that hard to do.
There's lots of programs out there nowthat'll let you do that kind of thing.
They don't seem to be as powerfulas using the visual stimulation,
(15:26):
which kind of makes sense.
The visual seems to be alittle more powerful, but the
audio certainly works as well.
Friederike Fabritius (15:32):
Right.
And also because our brain is highlyvisual, so like a lot of our brain is
dedicated to, to visual information.
So I can totally see how that,together with the other sense, it's
like a double multimodal thing.
So, I would have so many more questions,but I think we covered so much.
Absolutely fascinating.
(15:53):
So thank you so much for your time.
I'm not in the business of advertisingthese glasses, but I just know
I'm gonna be asked, like peopleare gonna write me emails like,
where can I get Jeff's glasses?
So where can they find it,how can you get started?
And also maybe give us an idea oflike, how many minutes per day?
(16:13):
Do we do it in themorning, in the evening?
Like what's the spiel here.
Jeff Tarrant (16:17):
Yeah, the time of day, it depends a little bit on what you're,
what type of program you're using.
So if you're using somethingmore stimulating, you would
wanna do it in the morning.
Uh, you certainly wouldn'twanna be doing that before bed.
Um, you know, it's kind oflike drinking coffee, right?
Like, you don't wanna be drinkinga bunch of coffee, you know,
at eight o'clock at night.
Um, although I know a lot of people do.
(16:37):
But if it's something for relaxation,you, you don't wanna be doing that
in the morning necessarily, right.
'cause you need to be alittle bit more alert.
So it depends a little bit on the time ofday of what you're trying to accomplish
and how you're feeling in the moment.
The amount of time,usually it takes about.
20 minutes is kind ofan ideal amount of time.
(16:59):
If you think about it, it's gonnatake a few minutes for the brain
to figure out what the frequencyis and to match up with it.
You know that's not gonnahappen instantaneously.
It takes a minute for thebrain to kinda lock in.
It takes a few minutes and then youwanna hold it there for a little
while to really get the full effect.
So for most people, 20 ishminutes seems about right.
(17:22):
And you know, as far as where theycan get more information, there's
certainly a bunch of stuff on ourwebsite: neuromeditationinstitute.com.
We actually have a YouTube channelthat also we've got several videos
about audio visual entrainment,uh, on our YouTube channel, which
is also Neuromeditation Institute.
So, you know, people can checkthose things out if they wanted
(17:44):
to learn more or even, you know,order their, their own glasses.
Friederike Fabritius (17:48):
Perfect.
Really fascinating because I feel thatwe all want more control over our brains,
and you're somebody who actually doesthat and teaches people how to do that.
So it's, it's so cool to get thatreally practical, but science-based
information on how to do it.
Thank you so much for sharing it withus and have a great rest of your day.
Jeff Tarrant (18:11):
Yeah, thank you so much.
undefined
I'm here with Dr. Jeff Tarrant,founder and director of the
Neuromeditation Institute.
Hello, Jeff.
Jeff Tarrant (00:13):
Hi, how are you?
Friederike Fabritius (00:14):
Oh, I'm great.
Learning more about neurofeedbackand then how to gain greater
cognitive control, it's kind ofan obsession of mine, I must say.
Because I think that's what we reallyneed, that, that inner freedom.
And so I wanted to pick yourbrain on a topic that I don't
see many people talking about.
(00:35):
So, back when I was studying neuroscience,I know some people were doing
transcranial magnetic stimulation and
like all kinds of experiments
where you would turn off certain areas
of the brain or stimulate them.
I was always a subject in experimentsbecause as a psychology student you kind
of volunteer to your peers' crazy studies.
(00:57):
But this is the one where I alwayssaid like, you do your brain
stimulation, I pass on that one.
Like I'm, I'm cool with the neurofeedback,but like to stimulate the brain, I
feel it's very interesting because it'sso effective but nobody's doing it.
So I know you're somebodywho's actually very well versed
in these kind of techniques.
(01:18):
So I want to hear from you about brainstimulation, but not maybe in the
clinical setting of like an experiment,but more like, let's say if I came
into your practice and I want to becomeless stressed and maybe focus more,
or I want to sleep better, like theseeveryday problems that everybody has,
how could brain stimulation help me?
Jeff Tarrant (01:39):
Yeah.
Let me do a little bit ofexplaining how this stuff works.
Um, so, you know, really what we'retalking about with brain stimulation
is most of the techniques, most ofthe tools that are out there are using
some sort of repetitive signal that'slike, sort of an on and off signal.
It's usually some sort of stimulationthat is directly affecting the
(02:01):
brainwave functioning and we canaffect the brain lots of ways.
We can use direct current, we canuse alternating current, we can
use pulsed electromagnetic, we canuse light and sound, we can use
photobiomodulation, which is light-near infrared light and red light.
So, we can affect the brain and the brainfunctioning with lots of different tools.
(02:23):
And what we want of course, is that ifthe brain is stuck in a certain pattern
that's maybe not particularly helpful,can we use these technologies and these
techniques to sort of nudge the brain?
We're kind of poking it, and trying toget it in a certain direction, either
to activate certain brainwave patternsor certain states or maybe to quiet some
(02:45):
things down depending on what's happening.
And so, most of the technologies I useare more consumer model technologies.
So they're things that I use inmy office, but they're also things
that people can buy and use at home.
So it's a little different than,techniques that you might use in
a hospital setting or, like youwere talking about transcranial
(03:06):
magnetic stimulation, right?
Yeah.
And, and that's a whole crazyexpensive, complicated thing.
It's cool.
Right.
But, you know, it's not somethingeverybody has access to.
Friederike Fabritius (03:16):
No.
And so you are saying people can buya device and use at home, for example.
So for me, let's say I come in andwhat happens to me often is that
I sometimes get so excited about atopic , I think what I would love to
do is to be able to instantly relax.
Let's say I am like, all workedup, had a lot going on, and then
(03:38):
I just want to like, boom, gointo recovery mode immediately.
I think that is, for example, somethinga lot of my clients would love to
be able to do because they're allvery busy, they do tons of stuff,
but then they have trouble sleeping.
Not all of them, but a lot.
And so I wonder, if I came into yourpractice and I was saying, I'm very
(04:00):
busy, do lots of things, but I want to beable to like, recover and relax whenever
I need it, what could we be doing?
Jeff Tarrant (04:08):
Yeah, I mean, you know, there, there would be a
couple of different techniquesthat I would think about.
Probably one of my favorites andI'll talk about that first because I
think it would, it might make sensewith the, the little scenario you
set up, but it's using somethingcalled, audio visual entrainment.
And, you know, I actually happen tohave a set of these glasses sitting
here, but so it's usually using someglasses that look something like this.
(04:31):
I, I joke that it's like a bad1980s sci-fi set of glasses.
Right.
Friederike Fabritius (04:38):
So for anybody watching on YouTube, you can actually
see the crazy visual- audio, brainentrainment setup that Jeff is showing.
Jeff Tarrant (04:46):
And then on the inside of the glasses, so there's this shield
and there's actually four lights oneach side, kind of behind the shield.
And so what happens is you plug these,these glasses into either your computer
or a special little box, a controllerbox, and you pick a program based on
(05:06):
what you are wanting your brain to do.
For example, in your situation you said,okay, I wanna recover, I wanna relax.
So, you know, we know thatcertain brainwaves are
better for that than others.
So for example, theta brainwaves oralpha brainwaves, something like that.
Well, you could pick a program that'sdesigned to entrain alpha brain waves.
(05:30):
So alpha is between 8and 12 cycles per second.
That's the speed of the brainwave.
And so what happens, you put these glasseson and the lights are gonna flicker at
somewhere between 8 and 12 times a second.
So the lights are flickering andyou know, you've got headphones
on and there's tones that match.
So audio-visual entrainment.
(05:51):
And then what happens is your brainstarts to follow that pattern.
So a frequency following effect, right?
So your brain will follow that pattern.
So if I'm pulsing something 10 timesa second, the brain starts making more
brainwave activity at 10 cycles persecond, which is alpha, which then has
sort of a relaxing, quieting effect.
(06:12):
So we can essentially pullthe brain toward the frequency
that we want it to move toward.
You know, alpha's a really good one.
You know, but you canuse it for sleep, right?
You could pull the brain down intoa delta brainwave, a really slow
brainwave, or we might use it for brainbrightening for like the elderly, right?
If they're starting to kind of losesome cognitive functioning , or
(06:34):
ADHD where we can perk the brain up.
Use a faster brainwave.
Right?
Friederike Fabritius (06:40):
Would that be like beta or gamma or, or what?
Jeff Tarrant (06:44):
Yep.
Friederike Fabritius: For that kind of stuff. (06:44):
undefined
Because I think that's also somethinga lot of people are interested in, kind
of like enhancing cognitive performance.
So what would you use therewith ADHD or like to prevent
dementia or something like that?
Jeff Tarrant (07:00):
Yeah.
You would use something inthe beta frequency range.
For the glasses, a lot of peoplelike things between 14 and 18 hertz.
Sometimes if you get much fasterthan that, people might feel
a little bit anxious 'causeit's really, it's really fast.
Right.
However, gamma, which is thefastest also works really well.
And the interesting thing about gammais there's some other research, and
(07:21):
I'm sure you're aware of it, but, gammafrequencies almost no matter how you
get it into the brain and body seemsto have a, a, anti-inflammatory effect.
And so there may be some additionalbenefit from using gamma frequencies.
So, it's perking the brain up,but it may also have some other
effects that are beneficial as well.
Friederike Fabritius (07:43):
That's really cool because I think we can all need that.
Very often people want to relax or theywant to focus, but they just cannot.
Yeah.
Right.
And that seems like sucha simple way to, to do it.
And so is that some kind oflike the entrainment, is that
some kind of physics thing?
Like why does my brainpick up these frequencies?
(08:04):
Because I was just thinking if I gosomewhere and there's certain music
playing, there's probably a lot ofentrainment going on in the supermarket.
Because they play certain music thatmakes me buy more stuff or like, no,
I'm just thinking, you know, likeit's a way to influence your brain.
Jeff Tarrant (08:20):
Yeah, for sure.
And, and you know, and certainly,I mean, everybody can relate to
that with different kinds of music.
You know, if, if you're listeningto Native American flute music, it's
gonna cause you to feel a certain way.
You know?
Whereas if you're listening to some sortof heavy metal or something that's gonna
cause you to feel a very different way.
Right?
So we know that even just musicand tone influences how we feel.
(08:44):
This is going just a little bitfurther because of that repetitive
stimuli, which we don't seethat in normal types of music.
Right?
You know, a just sort ofon and off, uh, signal.
Right.
And you know, the way that it works is,there is this thing in the brain, it's
called the frequency following effect,that the brain will follow frequencies.
(09:04):
Another way, again, without gettingtoo complicated, you know, there's
things that happen in the brain, sortof a, a, a visual and auditory evoked
potential that when you present thebrain with a stimuli, whatever it is,
in this case, it's a flash of light ora sound or whatever, a few milliseconds
later, the brain responds to that.
(09:25):
So if you keep presenting itwith information, the brain
keeps responding, right?
And so it's essentially tricking thebrain into matching that frequency.
This is one of my favorite tools, I'vebeen using it for probably 25 years
and I, I joke sometimes that it's like,you know, I probably work myself out
of a job half the time because somebodycomes in and they say, you know, hey,
(09:46):
I've got this or that issue, or this iswhat I'm looking for, and I'm like, you
know what, you could go buy one of thesethings and use it every day instead of
coming in and paying me twice a week
Friederike Fabritius (09:56):
Here's, one question I have about this.
Yeah.
So there are two questions actually.
With neurofeedback, what I love about itis that it's basically just a learning
experience you're creating for yourself.
So over time you gainmore cognitive control.
So it's like not themachine doing it to you.
Right.
(10:16):
Your brain learns.
So the way I think as a psychologistnow I'm thinking like, huh, this
thing is like making my brain doit, which to me, I always think it's
good to have that self-efficacy andthat feeling that like, Hey, I made
my brain do something , like it's acool feeling right when you succeed.
So can this be combined?
(10:38):
The way I would set it up, and nowyou tell me if you think about this
differently, but I was just thinking,can you maybe condition yourself so
that, for example, right before youplay a certain program, you give
yourself like a cue so that you dosome kind of classical conditioning.
So let's say before I do the relaxprogram, I give myself a certain
(10:58):
sound or some signal so thatwhenever I play that signal, my
brain learns (11:02):
now we're gonna relax.
Because I was thinking if I had thoseglasses and they worked really well, and
then let's say I am on a trip and I forgotto pack them, is there a way to turn
this into a learning experience so thatover time you can make your brain do that?
Or do you always need the glasses?
Jeff Tarrant (11:20):
Yeah, it's an interesting question.
And, you know, I, I don't have any directevidence to support you know, that idea
of kind of a pairing, uh, to createsome sort of an association where you
can get the brain in that state, butbased on everything else we know about
how the brain works, that should work.
Right?
You know, the, the brain is verysusceptible to those kinds of connections.
(11:44):
And so, you know, if you pair somesort of a, a cue with that state,
it should theoretically work.
The other thing that we notice isthat even though it's not the same
as neurofeedback, where you'reteaching the brain something, what
we notice is that when people usethe glasses consistently at, at the
(12:05):
beginning at least, right, so maybeseveral times a week or, or whatever.
That at some point it's almost likethey don't need the glasses anymore
or they don't need it as consistently.
So like somehow they've learnedhow to maintain that state
for longer periods of time.
(12:25):
And so it's interesting because onthe surface it doesn't make sense,
but I think it may be a learningprocess that people are learning what
that feels like and learning how tostay in that state more consistently.
Even if it's unconscious, that may notbe a conscious thing that they're doing.
But we see that a lot.
You know, people will start out using itevery day of the week for three months,
(12:47):
and then the next thing you know, they'rekind of like, eh, I don't think I need it.
And it's like, interesting,like, what happened?
Right?
Like something happened.
Friederike Fabritius (12:54):
No, but that makes a lot of sense because I think we
have something similar in neurofeedbackthat sometimes your brain just
learns, oh, that feels really good.
That's a very nice state to be in.
Here's how I make those brainwaves.
And then you even experience them inother settings where you don't have your
device and you don't get any feedback.
So I mean, subconsciousimplicit learning is huge.
(13:17):
I mean, most of the brain activitysubconscious, so it's really reassuring.
So, maybe one more questionbefore we thank you for today.
I know a lot of people use binaural beats.
Is that also a similar thing?
Jeff Tarrant (13:32):
Uh, it's similar.
It's a little bit different, you know, sobinaural beats, of course are audio only.
And the, the type of stimulationwe were just describing is,
is referred to as isochronic.
So it's that kind of on and off, dada da da da da da da, so that's,
that's what we're describing.
Binaural beats are actually takingtwo offset frequencies of audio
(13:56):
information and putting one inthe left ear and one in the right.
And then the brain does some sort ofmagical, mysterious subtraction process
where it will look at the differencebetween those two frequencies, and,
and sort of create sort of a ghostfrequency that your brain will follow.
Now, I've looked at some of the researchon binaural beats, and from what I can
(14:19):
tell, it doesn't seem to be as effectiveat entraining as the isochronic tones.
So those on and off signals seemto be more effective for getting
to a specific brain state, whateveryou're, you're trying to do.
However, there does seem to besomething about the binaural process
that is very relaxing for most people.
(14:40):
I'm not sure it has anything todo with the brainwaves itself.
I don't know what it is, butit seems to just naturally have
a relaxing state for people.
So what you see with some complicatedaudio engineer programs is
they'll start to combine things.
So there may be some isochroniccomponents, there may be some binaural
components, and they're using other thingsthat honestly, I don't understand, of
(15:04):
ways to, you know, entrain the brain.
So people are getting quitesophisticated with this work.
And so the audio certainly works, right?
You can find these thingson YouTube or whatever.
You know, you can make 'em yourself.
They're not that hard to do.
There's lots of programs out there nowthat'll let you do that kind of thing.
They don't seem to be as powerfulas using the visual stimulation,
(15:26):
which kind of makes sense.
The visual seems to be alittle more powerful, but the
audio certainly works as well.
Friederike Fabritius (15:32):
Right.
And also because our brain is highlyvisual, so like a lot of our brain is
dedicated to, to visual information.
So I can totally see how that,together with the other sense, it's
like a double multimodal thing.
So, I would have so many more questions,but I think we covered so much.
Absolutely fascinating.
(15:53):
So thank you so much for your time.
I'm not in the business of advertisingthese glasses, but I just know
I'm gonna be asked, like peopleare gonna write me emails like,
where can I get Jeff's glasses?
So where can they find it,how can you get started?
And also maybe give us an idea oflike, how many minutes per day?
(16:13):
Do we do it in themorning, in the evening?
Like what's the spiel here.
Jeff Tarrant (16:17):
Yeah, the time of day, it depends a little bit on what you're,
what type of program you're using.
So if you're using somethingmore stimulating, you would
wanna do it in the morning.
Uh, you certainly wouldn'twanna be doing that before bed.
Um, you know, it's kind oflike drinking coffee, right?
Like, you don't wanna be drinkinga bunch of coffee, you know,
at eight o'clock at night.
Um, although I know a lot of people do.
(16:37):
But if it's something for relaxation,you, you don't wanna be doing that
in the morning necessarily, right.
'cause you need to be alittle bit more alert.
So it depends a little bit on the time ofday of what you're trying to accomplish
and how you're feeling in the moment.
The amount of time,usually it takes about.
20 minutes is kind ofan ideal amount of time.
(16:59):
If you think about it, it's gonnatake a few minutes for the brain
to figure out what the frequencyis and to match up with it.
You know that's not gonnahappen instantaneously.
It takes a minute for thebrain to kinda lock in.
It takes a few minutes and then youwanna hold it there for a little
while to really get the full effect.
So for most people, 20 ishminutes seems about right.
(17:22):
And you know, as far as where theycan get more information, there's
certainly a bunch of stuff on ourwebsite: neuromeditationinstitute.com.
We actually have a YouTube channelthat also we've got several videos
about audio visual entrainment,uh, on our YouTube channel, which
is also Neuromeditation Institute.
So, you know, people can checkthose things out if they wanted
(17:44):
to learn more or even, you know,order their, their own glasses.
Friederike Fabritius (17:48):
Perfect.
Really fascinating because I feel thatwe all want more control over our brains,
and you're somebody who actually doesthat and teaches people how to do that.
So it's, it's so cool to get thatreally practical, but science-based
information on how to do it.
Thank you so much for sharing it withus and have a great rest of your day.
Jeff Tarrant (18:11):
Yeah, thank you so much.
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