Mastering cognitive control, adapting brainwaves, and optimizing flexibility.
Penijean Gracefire joins Friederike for the second time to discuss the practical applications and benefits of neurofeedback, focusing on innovative techniques such as z-score training. Penijean shares her personal experiences with brain training and the importance of cognitive flexibility. The discussion also tackles the diversity of thought within the field, agreeing that there is no “right” or “wrong” way of approach, and the concept of allostasis. Both Friederike and Penijean emphasize the importance of a more personalized, adaptable approach to neurofeedback when it comes to mental health and cognitive performance. If you’re wanting to deepen your understanding on optimizing brain function, flexibility, and enhancing your overall well-being, this is the episode for you.
00:44 Personal Experiences with Brain Boosting Techniques
03:28 Traumatic Brain Injury and Cognitive Flexibility
05:22 Exploring Z-Score Training
10:53 Understanding Allostasis vs. Homeostasis
18:04 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Follow Friederike on LinkedIn to stay connected and up to date on her neurohacks.
And if you're looking for more brain-friendly insights be sure to subscribe to The Brain-Friendly Newsletter.
Penijean Gracefire is a neural frequency analyst and constant question asker who rides motorcycles, drinks tea, and designs therapeutic applications for emerging neurotechnology. Her educational background includes a clinical mental health license and board certification in both Neurofeedback and Quantitative EEG. As a qualified supervisor, she also serves as the co-chair of the Neuroscience Taskforce for the American Mental Health Counseling Association.
Penijean constructs closed loop EEG-based feedback paradigms which alter neural dynamics in real time, helping people to recover from injury and trauma by improving cortical network flexibility and adaptive cascades. Her ground-breaking work has led to industry-wide changes in neuromodulation and is the basis for current standards in international certification. Penijean’s passions include spectral analysis, creative delivery mechanisms for caffeine, and taking things apart to see how they work.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Friederike Fabritius (00:05):
Hello everyone.
I'm here with Penijean GracefireThose of you who listened to
the last episode have met her.
She's an icon and then neurofeedbackand neuroscience community, very
creative with very innovative andnovel approaches to neurofeedback.
So today I would love to pick Penijean'sbrain on anything QEEG, novel approaches,
(00:30):
z-score training, kind of what's new,what's hot, what are people doing?
Yeah, I wanna hear because I knowyou are on the forefront of that.
So welcome to the show, Penijean.
Penijean Gracefire: Thank you for having me. (00:41):
undefined
Friederike Fabritius (00:44):
Yeah.
So first of all, I would liketo start off asking you how do
you boost your personal brain?
Do you do any kind of likeneurofeedback brain training or
stimulation or anything to yourself?
Penijean Gracefire (00:59):
I do actually test out quite a few things on
myself, and I somewhat regularlydo brain maps and various biometric
assessments of where I am.
One of the things that you andI could probably both, uh, vibe
over is having a faster brainpotentially on average than typical.
(01:22):
And so I joke somewhat about havinga lot of gamma activity in my brain.
A lot of that higher frequency activity.
And I used to have so much fastactivity when I was younger that I
would consider it to be edging moreinto anxiety, stress, and so the
(01:43):
approach that I had taken initiallywas, can I just slow some things down?
Friederike Fabritius (01:47):
Right.
Penijean Gracefire (01:48):
But because I'm also a bit of an adventurous spirit, uh, playing
a lot of sports, riding motorcycles,falling out of trees, uh, headbutting,
some footballs, you know, um, I also have
Friederike Fabritius (02:01):
What's the falling out of trees?
How are you falling out of trees?
Penijean Gracefire (02:05):
What are you first you have to climb them.
So you could be somebody who wants to getup into a tree and see what's going on.
Friederike Fabritius (02:13):
That's cool.
Do you have any equipmentor is it like raw climbing?
Penijean Gracefire (02:17):
Oh, majority.
It's just, it's just raw climbing.
I mean, literally it's justthe idea of wanting to be up a
little bit higher in a perch.
I think there are some peoplewho are "perch interested".
I think there's potentially a,a developmental element in some
people's personalities where wewanna sort see what's going on.
And climbing up on things.
(02:39):
I mean, even as a kid, I, I usedto get up on the back of the
couch instead of sitting on thecouch seat like a normal person.
I would get up on the back ofa chair at the back of a couch.
My mom would just be like, what?
Why?
Why is this happening?
Just sit in the actual seat.
And so, I, I think some of us justhave that impulse right to climb.
(03:01):
Right.
So I've always been a bit of a climber,but you know, sometimes you climb up
high enough, you fall out of stuff, so.
But I think that interests or thatdrive in, in wanting to be able to
see the lay of the land, to have likea, a vantage point, to create some
perspective has actually driven someof my interest in just engaging and
(03:23):
asking questions and gathering data.
I think it's data gatheringalmost at the core.
Friederike Fabritius (03:27):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Penijean Gracefire (03:28):
And so the reason I say this is because I've
had my own history of traumaticbrain injury from a variety of
different sources over the years.
And so I had a combination of reallyslow brain activity and realy fast
brain activity and a lot of peoplecould identify with this, you know,
(03:50):
underlying problem of maybe nothaving enough cognitive flexibility.
We get a little bit stuck in slowwave where we have more trouble
engaging and being focused and beingproductive or we get stuck in faster
frequencies where we have moretrouble relaxing and disengaging,
when appropriate, to essentiallyrest and repair and regenerate.
Friederike Fabritius (04:13):
Exactly.
And you know, my goal, or whatI really am so interested in is
that idea of cognitive control.
Of rather than being a victimof whatever my brain decides to
do, to have that ability to, youknow, shift in and out of state.
So for example, if I do a keynote, Ihave to be like, flow and focused and
(04:33):
engaged, but then afterwards instantlyrelax and recover and come like,
down from it and recover all thoseneurotransmitters that I probably used up.
So I think that's really a skillthat's really worthwhile exploring.
And to me it seems like neurofeedbackis a really tangible way to, to do that
(04:55):
because you learn to control your brainand when there's, like, you get stuck in
certain brainwaves, you learn to go back.
So I think that's really really cool.
So, okay, so you do your own, soyou probably look at your QEG and
then you design your own protocols.
I kind of do the same thing.
It's just that I'm not at your level inthe neurofeedback, of course, because
(05:15):
I've like not looked at it for 15years and now I have somehow came back.
So a lot of stuff has happened.
So, one thing we touched on before,one thing that puzzles me with the
Z-score training, I see everybodyin the industry is doing it.
I see you're designing like, it'sgreat because I, I have Z-score
(05:37):
training on my brain master andit's there, it's, it's easy to use.
It treats the whole brain.
But I just wonder how do youmake sure you're not also kind of
reducing some real peaks in strength?
So for example, some standard deviationsprobably are something positive.
So even though if overall the impact ismaybe a bit more cognitive flexibility,
(06:00):
I would be scared to like removingsome, like a bit like in the beauty
industry where all the people withplastic surgery have like the same
kind of nose and, and look, it kindof takes away the, like all the
housewives look the same kind of thing.
I just wonder, is there somethingsimilar with a brain or can you
preserve your individual signaturewhile, while doing Z-score training?
Penijean Gracefire (06:24):
How do we avoid the Kardashian-ification of the brain?
Friederike Fabritius (06:30):
Exactly.
Penijean Gracefire (06:32):
It's a great question.
So I am actually somewhat uniquelysuited to answer this for you.
Being the person in 2004 and2005, who actually developed the
original Z-score training paradigm.
Friederike Fabritius (06:48):
Cool.
Yeah.
I'm in awe here.
I know why I wanted you on this podcastbecause I've been discussing this
question with my friend Ross, and I said,you know, who can answer our question?
Penijean.
It like keeps me up at night.
So please tell me.
Penijean Gracefire (07:03):
Of course.
Friederike Fabritius (07:04):
Yeah.
I wanna hear.
Penijean Gracefire (07:05):
So there's a couple of things to understand.
The first thing to understand is justlike the term yoga Is a concept that
could mean a lot of different thingsbased on where you're doing it in the
world and who is teaching it to you.
Z-score training, the original conceptof it has been, borrowed and adapted
(07:27):
and changed and essentially reput backout into the world in different formats
than the original one I designed.
And I think that is the first step tounderstanding why people can do it in
different environments and potentiallyreceive widely variable results.
Friederike Fabritius (07:46):
Okay.
So the only ones I know with my basicunderstanding of it, I've seen the
well, I've basically seen two databasesto QEEG Pro database, I think, and
then I've seen the ANI I don't knowif there are even more of those.
I've been wondering why does nobody,or maybe somebody has done it,
(08:06):
record super smart people and thencreates a database base on them.
People with like a high IQ or people whoare just like super kind and empathetic.
I wonder, are they only those twodatabases or are there more, or
what are the different approaches?
Penijean Gracefire (08:20):
So we are coming at it from two different places
and we're gonna meet in the middle.
This is excellent.
So you are asking what is actuallyphysically available hardware and
software wise that we can pull from tocreate both analysis and feedback on.
And I'm tackling it from, everyindividual, every provider, every
(08:41):
clinician, has their own concept ofhow they think people and brains work.
And so it doesn't matter what thetechnology is capable of, they
will take and format somethingfrom it that makes sense to them.
And that's the paradigm that they're gonnause when they try to interact with people
and help with brain change in modulation.
Friederike Fabritius (09:01):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So for example, just so to see if Iunderstand what you're saying, I talked
to one expert and she said, oh, youhave a very fast brain, so let's like
carefully up-train some of those slowwaves to kind of like take the edge off.
So she was saying, you know, youcould increase your delta and
theta and alpha a little bit.
(09:23):
And then I discussed it withanother expert and she said whoa,
I would never up-train delta.
Like, "whoa, you would not wannado it. It's not always safe."
And well, not with one electrode, maybeif you do a Z-score, because then you
never go beyond a certain range andthen you also cannot overtrain because
like it stops when you have reachedthat or when you stay within that range.
(09:46):
But I just see already from those twodiscussions, one person is saying, you
should up-train your slow frequencies.
And the other person is saying like,woah, if you want to stay focused
and on top of things, you don'twanna be confused and disoriented.
So I find it really hardin that neurofeedback
community, I mean, it's great.
I love the like diversity of thought,but I find it's rare that you see such
(10:10):
completely opposite approaches and withlike completely knowledgeable experts.
And both approaches, when peopleexplain it to you, seem to make sense.
So it's not that I say one ofthem is like super qualified
and the other one is an idiot.
Like both are like top of the game.
And so I find it interesting thatthere's this range of approaches and
(10:30):
then depending on who you go to, you willprobably get a very different treatment.
Is that what you're saying?
Penijean Gracefire (10:36):
Yes, it is what I'm saying.
And I had the same, I hate to callit frustration 'cause it wasn't
so much frustration, but the sameconfusion, the first handful of
years that I was in the industry.
Because I think what drives most of usis this desire for the right answer.
There are a number of people who reallytackle the idea of brain operation
(10:58):
from the model of homeostasis.
Interestingly, I think for bothof us, one of my early influences
that helped me think about how Iwanted to design conversations and
interactions with the central nervoussystem was a gentleman named Peter
Sterling, uh, who wrote Allostasis.
Friederike Fabritius (11:17):
Yeah.
So I interviewed him with this showexactly because I was so fascinated
by the concept of allostasis.
Maybe we explain it shortly for people.
So, allostasis is that idea that thereis a certain, and correct me if like,
but like there's a certain balance to,for example, your body temperature,
your hormone levels, everythingtries to stay in like optimal levels.
(11:40):
And in the old paradigm of homeostasis,there was this idea that there's just
an error, feedback loop in the body.
So for example, if your body temperaturegoes outside a healthy range,
your brain tries to correct that.
While with allostasis, I think thefascinating thing is that your brain is
predictive and the set point is changing.
(12:00):
So I thought it's very interestingbecause it changes everything because
that's actually more accuratelyhow the brain actually operates.
And this also explains why we can alsodrive ourselves in unhealthy states and
then the brain tries to maintain those.
Because if you're always used tobeing stressed, for example, then your
brain starts thinking that's your newnormal and tries to maybe maintain
(12:22):
that when a reality would be healthierfor you to change the setpoint.
Or for example, with dopamine, right?
You can go on a binge watching of Netflixand or porn or whatever and your dopamine
set point will change and then you willnot enjoy the small pleasures anymore.
Penijean Gracefire (12:39):
I think that it's a very natural emerging overlap
, because in many ways the concept ofhomeostasis is there is a single set
point of optimal function, right?
So if you stray from that, you arenot gonna have optimal function,
which is something that worksmarvelously for simpler systems.
(12:59):
When the system becomes more complex,there isn't one single set point, there's
no homeostatic set point that worksfor every element of a complex system.
So when we go from a neuron to thewhole brain, now we've got the potential
of needing different areas of thebrain to be working at different
(13:20):
set points at different times.
And allostasis is the idea thatthere is a variety of possible set
points that could be ideal basedon changes in environmental demand.
And that's why the concept that you referto, predictive regulation, becomes so key.
It's the idea that you have historicalexperiences: I get up in the morning,
(13:45):
I eat food, I go to the location,I do some things, I take a break, I
eat more food and drink water, I gohome, you know, I do more things.
At some point I lay down and I tryto sleep, and then I get up again.
The light changes through the day,the activity level changes, the
input, resourcing level changes.
And if we've got a schedule.
(14:05):
That's somewhat regular, a routine,then our bodies can take that historical
experience of routine and it can predictwhen am I gonna need to expend resources
and when am I gonna get some in?
And so it will know when we laydown to sleep is the time to have a
different set of operational points.
(14:26):
then we have different demandsthan when we're out in the world
being expected to multitask andproduce and keep on top of things.
So allostasis is the idea that there'smultiple set points that are ideal
based on actual changes in demand,and then your capacity to predict what
(14:46):
those different set points could be.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So this concept helped me to shiftout of this idea that there is a
right and a wrong way for locationsin my brain to be functioning.
because what I'm actually askingfor my brain to do is both
local and network dependent.
(15:07):
And what I'm asking for the local areasto do very much changes based on what
areas I'm trying to network together todo which type of responses to the world.
Friederike Fabritius (15:18):
Right.
So are you then operating moreindividually, so in a sense that
maybe for this person that is agood set point and for someone else,
like how do you find out which oneis the good set point for someone?
Penijean Gracefire (15:29):
So this is why Z-score training became an inevitability for
me to develop as a clinical paradigm.
So the historical clinical paradigmwas hey, these brainwaves, we've got
faster ones and we've got slower ones.
And depending on where we're hanging out.
(15:50):
In the frequency range, it's gonnasomewhat dictate our capacity
for engagement on productivity,and that's gonna dictate like
what task is being prioritized.
The slower waves when we hang out inthem they prioritize rest and repair
and regeneration and consolidation.
Really critically important,internally oriented tasking.
(16:11):
When we hang out in the fasterfrequencies, they prioritize externally
oriented tasking, engaging with theworld, processing, you know, doing a lot
of things simultaneously, prioritizinglike what thing to pay attention to.
There's a lot happening in thosefaster frequencies and we also
need to be able to hang out inthose to get certain things done.
Right.
What if this model of state flexibilityis true at an allostatic level?
(16:39):
Then what that means is ultimately weneed to be able, we need to be able to
change not just local state flexibility.
Where am I hanging out in, you know,Delta or theta or beta or whatever.
We also need to be able to networkdifferent areas together that are
hanging in different frequency rangesto do more complex and nuanced tasking
(17:05):
and prioritisation of decision.
So when I say there's no rightanswer, what I mean is both of the
professionals you consulted, one whosaid, let's train up some slow, let's
increase them slow, and the other onesaid, maybe let's decrease them fast.
Both were under the umbrella oflet's increase state flexibility
(17:27):
or your system's capacity to adapt.
Friederike Fabritius (17:31):
It's like kind of increase the personal range.
Penijean Gracefire (17:34):
Yes.
Friederike Fabritius (17:34):
So maybe that it gives me the ability to go fast
when I need to go fast and to goslow when I need to go slow instead
of just having that one brainwave,I'll always like pull out my sleeve.
Because I think we are all a bit likehave these automatic responses to
situations and so then rather thanalways having to react in a certain
way, when you have a broader range ofpossibilities of brainwaves, if your
(17:58):
brain has experienced a different way ofdoing things, you get that flexibility.
So that has been super fascinating,Penijean, thank you for explaining this
to me because it's really been puzzling mebecause I'm not a big fan of like average
or norm or something like this, you know?
And I can see how that'snot what it's all about.
(18:20):
It's more about increasingyour personal range.
So a bit like when you're an actor andyou're always playing just a villain
and you're stuck in that, you kindof learn to also be the lover, the
father, the son, the leading man, sothat you're not like stuck in that
brainwave where you can't escape.
So that has been fascinating.
(18:41):
Thank you so much, Penijean, forsharing that with us and it's so
great that you're so innovative.
I think that's just like really cool.
Thank you.
Penijean Gracefire (18:50):
Yeah.
Friederike Fabritius (18:51):
Thanks for today.
Penijean Gracefire (18:52):
Of course.
Hello everyone.
I'm here with Penijean GracefireThose of you who listened to
the last episode have met her.
She's an icon and then neurofeedbackand neuroscience community, very
creative with very innovative andnovel approaches to neurofeedback.
So today I would love to pick Penijean'sbrain on anything QEEG, novel approaches,
(00:30):
z-score training, kind of what's new,what's hot, what are people doing?
Yeah, I wanna hear because I knowyou are on the forefront of that.
So welcome to the show, Penijean.
Penijean Gracefire: Thank you for having me. (00:41):
undefined
Friederike Fabritius (00:44):
Yeah.
So first of all, I would liketo start off asking you how do
you boost your personal brain?
Do you do any kind of likeneurofeedback brain training or
stimulation or anything to yourself?
Penijean Gracefire (00:59):
I do actually test out quite a few things on
myself, and I somewhat regularlydo brain maps and various biometric
assessments of where I am.
One of the things that you andI could probably both, uh, vibe
over is having a faster brainpotentially on average than typical.
(01:22):
And so I joke somewhat about havinga lot of gamma activity in my brain.
A lot of that higher frequency activity.
And I used to have so much fastactivity when I was younger that I
would consider it to be edging moreinto anxiety, stress, and so the
(01:43):
approach that I had taken initiallywas, can I just slow some things down?
Friederike Fabritius (01:47):
Right.
Penijean Gracefire (01:48):
But because I'm also a bit of an adventurous spirit, uh, playing
a lot of sports, riding motorcycles,falling out of trees, uh, headbutting,
some footballs, you know, um, I also have
Friederike Fabritius (02:01):
What's the falling out of trees?
How are you falling out of trees?
Penijean Gracefire (02:05):
What are you first you have to climb them.
So you could be somebody who wants to getup into a tree and see what's going on.
Friederike Fabritius (02:13):
That's cool.
Do you have any equipmentor is it like raw climbing?
Penijean Gracefire (02:17):
Oh, majority.
It's just, it's just raw climbing.
I mean, literally it's justthe idea of wanting to be up a
little bit higher in a perch.
I think there are some peoplewho are "perch interested".
I think there's potentially a,a developmental element in some
people's personalities where wewanna sort see what's going on.
And climbing up on things.
(02:39):
I mean, even as a kid, I, I usedto get up on the back of the
couch instead of sitting on thecouch seat like a normal person.
I would get up on the back ofa chair at the back of a couch.
My mom would just be like, what?
Why?
Why is this happening?
Just sit in the actual seat.
And so, I, I think some of us justhave that impulse right to climb.
(03:01):
Right.
So I've always been a bit of a climber,but you know, sometimes you climb up
high enough, you fall out of stuff, so.
But I think that interests or thatdrive in, in wanting to be able to
see the lay of the land, to have likea, a vantage point, to create some
perspective has actually driven someof my interest in just engaging and
(03:23):
asking questions and gathering data.
I think it's data gatheringalmost at the core.
Friederike Fabritius (03:27):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Penijean Gracefire (03:28):
And so the reason I say this is because I've
had my own history of traumaticbrain injury from a variety of
different sources over the years.
And so I had a combination of reallyslow brain activity and realy fast
brain activity and a lot of peoplecould identify with this, you know,
(03:50):
underlying problem of maybe nothaving enough cognitive flexibility.
We get a little bit stuck in slowwave where we have more trouble
engaging and being focused and beingproductive or we get stuck in faster
frequencies where we have moretrouble relaxing and disengaging,
when appropriate, to essentiallyrest and repair and regenerate.
Friederike Fabritius (04:13):
Exactly.
And you know, my goal, or whatI really am so interested in is
that idea of cognitive control.
Of rather than being a victimof whatever my brain decides to
do, to have that ability to, youknow, shift in and out of state.
So for example, if I do a keynote, Ihave to be like, flow and focused and
(04:33):
engaged, but then afterwards instantlyrelax and recover and come like,
down from it and recover all thoseneurotransmitters that I probably used up.
So I think that's really a skillthat's really worthwhile exploring.
And to me it seems like neurofeedbackis a really tangible way to, to do that
(04:55):
because you learn to control your brainand when there's, like, you get stuck in
certain brainwaves, you learn to go back.
So I think that's really really cool.
So, okay, so you do your own, soyou probably look at your QEG and
then you design your own protocols.
I kind of do the same thing.
It's just that I'm not at your level inthe neurofeedback, of course, because
(05:15):
I've like not looked at it for 15years and now I have somehow came back.
So a lot of stuff has happened.
So, one thing we touched on before,one thing that puzzles me with the
Z-score training, I see everybodyin the industry is doing it.
I see you're designing like, it'sgreat because I, I have Z-score
(05:37):
training on my brain master andit's there, it's, it's easy to use.
It treats the whole brain.
But I just wonder how do youmake sure you're not also kind of
reducing some real peaks in strength?
So for example, some standard deviationsprobably are something positive.
So even though if overall the impact ismaybe a bit more cognitive flexibility,
(06:00):
I would be scared to like removingsome, like a bit like in the beauty
industry where all the people withplastic surgery have like the same
kind of nose and, and look, it kindof takes away the, like all the
housewives look the same kind of thing.
I just wonder, is there somethingsimilar with a brain or can you
preserve your individual signaturewhile, while doing Z-score training?
Penijean Gracefire (06:24):
How do we avoid the Kardashian-ification of the brain?
Friederike Fabritius (06:30):
Exactly.
Penijean Gracefire (06:32):
It's a great question.
So I am actually somewhat uniquelysuited to answer this for you.
Being the person in 2004 and2005, who actually developed the
original Z-score training paradigm.
Friederike Fabritius (06:48):
Cool.
Yeah.
I'm in awe here.
I know why I wanted you on this podcastbecause I've been discussing this
question with my friend Ross, and I said,you know, who can answer our question?
Penijean.
It like keeps me up at night.
So please tell me.
Penijean Gracefire (07:03):
Of course.
Friederike Fabritius (07:04):
Yeah.
I wanna hear.
Penijean Gracefire (07:05):
So there's a couple of things to understand.
The first thing to understand is justlike the term yoga Is a concept that
could mean a lot of different thingsbased on where you're doing it in the
world and who is teaching it to you.
Z-score training, the original conceptof it has been, borrowed and adapted
(07:27):
and changed and essentially reput backout into the world in different formats
than the original one I designed.
And I think that is the first step tounderstanding why people can do it in
different environments and potentiallyreceive widely variable results.
Friederike Fabritius (07:46):
Okay.
So the only ones I know with my basicunderstanding of it, I've seen the
well, I've basically seen two databasesto QEEG Pro database, I think, and
then I've seen the ANI I don't knowif there are even more of those.
I've been wondering why does nobody,or maybe somebody has done it,
(08:06):
record super smart people and thencreates a database base on them.
People with like a high IQ or people whoare just like super kind and empathetic.
I wonder, are they only those twodatabases or are there more, or
what are the different approaches?
Penijean Gracefire (08:20):
So we are coming at it from two different places
and we're gonna meet in the middle.
This is excellent.
So you are asking what is actuallyphysically available hardware and
software wise that we can pull from tocreate both analysis and feedback on.
And I'm tackling it from, everyindividual, every provider, every
(08:41):
clinician, has their own concept ofhow they think people and brains work.
And so it doesn't matter what thetechnology is capable of, they
will take and format somethingfrom it that makes sense to them.
And that's the paradigm that they're gonnause when they try to interact with people
and help with brain change in modulation.
Friederike Fabritius (09:01):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So for example, just so to see if Iunderstand what you're saying, I talked
to one expert and she said, oh, youhave a very fast brain, so let's like
carefully up-train some of those slowwaves to kind of like take the edge off.
So she was saying, you know, youcould increase your delta and
theta and alpha a little bit.
(09:23):
And then I discussed it withanother expert and she said whoa,
I would never up-train delta.
Like, "whoa, you would not wannado it. It's not always safe."
And well, not with one electrode, maybeif you do a Z-score, because then you
never go beyond a certain range andthen you also cannot overtrain because
like it stops when you have reachedthat or when you stay within that range.
(09:46):
But I just see already from those twodiscussions, one person is saying, you
should up-train your slow frequencies.
And the other person is saying like,woah, if you want to stay focused
and on top of things, you don'twanna be confused and disoriented.
So I find it really hardin that neurofeedback
community, I mean, it's great.
I love the like diversity of thought,but I find it's rare that you see such
(10:10):
completely opposite approaches and withlike completely knowledgeable experts.
And both approaches, when peopleexplain it to you, seem to make sense.
So it's not that I say one ofthem is like super qualified
and the other one is an idiot.
Like both are like top of the game.
And so I find it interesting thatthere's this range of approaches and
(10:30):
then depending on who you go to, you willprobably get a very different treatment.
Is that what you're saying?
Penijean Gracefire (10:36):
Yes, it is what I'm saying.
And I had the same, I hate to callit frustration 'cause it wasn't
so much frustration, but the sameconfusion, the first handful of
years that I was in the industry.
Because I think what drives most of usis this desire for the right answer.
There are a number of people who reallytackle the idea of brain operation
(10:58):
from the model of homeostasis.
Interestingly, I think for bothof us, one of my early influences
that helped me think about how Iwanted to design conversations and
interactions with the central nervoussystem was a gentleman named Peter
Sterling, uh, who wrote Allostasis.
Friederike Fabritius (11:17):
Yeah.
So I interviewed him with this showexactly because I was so fascinated
by the concept of allostasis.
Maybe we explain it shortly for people.
So, allostasis is that idea that thereis a certain, and correct me if like,
but like there's a certain balance to,for example, your body temperature,
your hormone levels, everythingtries to stay in like optimal levels.
(11:40):
And in the old paradigm of homeostasis,there was this idea that there's just
an error, feedback loop in the body.
So for example, if your body temperaturegoes outside a healthy range,
your brain tries to correct that.
While with allostasis, I think thefascinating thing is that your brain is
predictive and the set point is changing.
(12:00):
So I thought it's very interestingbecause it changes everything because
that's actually more accuratelyhow the brain actually operates.
And this also explains why we can alsodrive ourselves in unhealthy states and
then the brain tries to maintain those.
Because if you're always used tobeing stressed, for example, then your
brain starts thinking that's your newnormal and tries to maybe maintain
(12:22):
that when a reality would be healthierfor you to change the setpoint.
Or for example, with dopamine, right?
You can go on a binge watching of Netflixand or porn or whatever and your dopamine
set point will change and then you willnot enjoy the small pleasures anymore.
Penijean Gracefire (12:39):
I think that it's a very natural emerging overlap
, because in many ways the concept ofhomeostasis is there is a single set
point of optimal function, right?
So if you stray from that, you arenot gonna have optimal function,
which is something that worksmarvelously for simpler systems.
(12:59):
When the system becomes more complex,there isn't one single set point, there's
no homeostatic set point that worksfor every element of a complex system.
So when we go from a neuron to thewhole brain, now we've got the potential
of needing different areas of thebrain to be working at different
(13:20):
set points at different times.
And allostasis is the idea thatthere is a variety of possible set
points that could be ideal basedon changes in environmental demand.
And that's why the concept that you referto, predictive regulation, becomes so key.
It's the idea that you have historicalexperiences: I get up in the morning,
(13:45):
I eat food, I go to the location,I do some things, I take a break, I
eat more food and drink water, I gohome, you know, I do more things.
At some point I lay down and I tryto sleep, and then I get up again.
The light changes through the day,the activity level changes, the
input, resourcing level changes.
And if we've got a schedule.
(14:05):
That's somewhat regular, a routine,then our bodies can take that historical
experience of routine and it can predictwhen am I gonna need to expend resources
and when am I gonna get some in?
And so it will know when we laydown to sleep is the time to have a
different set of operational points.
(14:26):
then we have different demandsthan when we're out in the world
being expected to multitask andproduce and keep on top of things.
So allostasis is the idea that there'smultiple set points that are ideal
based on actual changes in demand,and then your capacity to predict what
(14:46):
those different set points could be.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So this concept helped me to shiftout of this idea that there is a
right and a wrong way for locationsin my brain to be functioning.
because what I'm actually askingfor my brain to do is both
local and network dependent.
(15:07):
And what I'm asking for the local areasto do very much changes based on what
areas I'm trying to network together todo which type of responses to the world.
Friederike Fabritius (15:18):
Right.
So are you then operating moreindividually, so in a sense that
maybe for this person that is agood set point and for someone else,
like how do you find out which oneis the good set point for someone?
Penijean Gracefire (15:29):
So this is why Z-score training became an inevitability for
me to develop as a clinical paradigm.
So the historical clinical paradigmwas hey, these brainwaves, we've got
faster ones and we've got slower ones.
And depending on where we're hanging out.
(15:50):
In the frequency range, it's gonnasomewhat dictate our capacity
for engagement on productivity,and that's gonna dictate like
what task is being prioritized.
The slower waves when we hang out inthem they prioritize rest and repair
and regeneration and consolidation.
Really critically important,internally oriented tasking.
(16:11):
When we hang out in the fasterfrequencies, they prioritize externally
oriented tasking, engaging with theworld, processing, you know, doing a lot
of things simultaneously, prioritizinglike what thing to pay attention to.
There's a lot happening in thosefaster frequencies and we also
need to be able to hang out inthose to get certain things done.
Right.
What if this model of state flexibilityis true at an allostatic level?
(16:39):
Then what that means is ultimately weneed to be able, we need to be able to
change not just local state flexibility.
Where am I hanging out in, you know,Delta or theta or beta or whatever.
We also need to be able to networkdifferent areas together that are
hanging in different frequency rangesto do more complex and nuanced tasking
(17:05):
and prioritisation of decision.
So when I say there's no rightanswer, what I mean is both of the
professionals you consulted, one whosaid, let's train up some slow, let's
increase them slow, and the other onesaid, maybe let's decrease them fast.
Both were under the umbrella oflet's increase state flexibility
(17:27):
or your system's capacity to adapt.
Friederike Fabritius (17:31):
It's like kind of increase the personal range.
Penijean Gracefire (17:34):
Yes.
Friederike Fabritius (17:34):
So maybe that it gives me the ability to go fast
when I need to go fast and to goslow when I need to go slow instead
of just having that one brainwave,I'll always like pull out my sleeve.
Because I think we are all a bit likehave these automatic responses to
situations and so then rather thanalways having to react in a certain
way, when you have a broader range ofpossibilities of brainwaves, if your
(17:58):
brain has experienced a different way ofdoing things, you get that flexibility.
So that has been super fascinating,Penijean, thank you for explaining this
to me because it's really been puzzling mebecause I'm not a big fan of like average
or norm or something like this, you know?
And I can see how that'snot what it's all about.
(18:20):
It's more about increasingyour personal range.
So a bit like when you're an actor andyou're always playing just a villain
and you're stuck in that, you kindof learn to also be the lover, the
father, the son, the leading man, sothat you're not like stuck in that
brainwave where you can't escape.
So that has been fascinating.
(18:41):
Thank you so much, Penijean, forsharing that with us and it's so
great that you're so innovative.
I think that's just like really cool.
Thank you.
Penijean Gracefire (18:50):
Yeah.
Friederike Fabritius (18:51):
Thanks for today.
Penijean Gracefire (18:52):
Of course.
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