Exploring Neurofeedback and Brainwaves with Dr. Jeff Tarrant
In the first of 3 conversations, Friederike Fabritius interviews Dr. Jeff Tarrant, founder and director of the Neuromeditation Institute. They discuss Dr. Tarrant’s journey into neurofeedback and his contributions to the field. Dr. Tarrant explains the basics of neurofeedback, detailing how real-time brainwave monitoring can teach the brain to change patterns for improved flexibility and mental health. The conversation covers different brainwave types (Delta, Theta, Alpha, Beta, Gamma) and their roles in states of consciousness. They also explore practical applications of neurofeedback for both mental health treatment and enhancing peak performance. The episode highlights the significance of brain flexibility and its potential to improve mental states and executive functioning.
00:00 Introduction
01:08 Understanding Neurofeedback
03:01 Dr. Tarrant's Journey into Neurofeedback
4:23 Applications and Benefits of Neurofeedback
06:25 Peak Performance and Brain Flexibility
08:56 Exploring Brain Waves
14:59 Training Gamma Brain Waves
17:20 Conclusion
Follow Friederike on LinkedIn to stay connected and up to date on her neurohacks. And if you're looking for more brain-friendly insights be sure to subscribe to The Brain-Friendly Newsletter.
Dr. Jeff Tarrant is a pioneering neuroscientist, licensed psychologist, and expert in consciousness research, specializing in the intersection of meditation, brainwave technology, and intuitive abilities. He is the founder and director of the NeuroMeditation Institute in Eugene, OR, where he explores how technology-based interventions and meditative states can enhance mental health and cognitive function. Board-certified in neurofeedback, Dr. Tarrant’s research focuses on the brainwave changes associated with contemplative practices, altered states of consciousness, and technology-based interventions. He is the author of Meditation Interventions to Rewire the Brain
Websites: www.neuromeditationinstitute.com
Facebook: @NeuroMeditation
Youtube: @neuromeditationinstitute
Books: Meditation Interventions to Rewire the Brain
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Friederike Fabritius:
Hello, everyone and welcome. (00:05):
undefined
I'm back in the studiowith Dr. Jeff Tarrant.
And I have to tell you that I'veread both of his books, and I came
across his work in a very lengthyscience based, very complicated book.
And every single article inthat book was so complicated.
And then
I came across Dr. Tarrant's book andI was like, Oh my God, this is simple.
(00:28):
It's science based.
It's explained with such a clarity.
Friederike Fabritius (00:31):
So I felt I have to have him here on the show.
Because what I love about it is that,well, I won't tell you too much about
it, but he's the founder and directorof the Neuromeditation Institute.
And he's, I think really atthe forefront of neurofeedback
technology, and neuroscience.
He's a licensed psychologist.
(00:52):
And he has founded, or I wouldsay invented, a technique
called neuromeditation thatI want to discuss with him.
So welcome to the show.
Hello, Dr. Tarrant.
Hello, Jeff.
Jeff Tarrant (01:05):
Hi, nice to see you again.
Thanks for inviting me on.
Friederike Fabritius (01:07):
Yeah.
So I would like to start out byunderstanding a little bit more about
neurofeedback because I think manyof our listeners, well, maybe they
will surprise us and they know whatit is, but it's not very mainstream.
I think it didn't get theattention it deserves.
Let's put it that way.
So, can you tell us, how did youget into the field of neurofeedback?
Jeff Tarrant (01:29):
Yeah, and, and, you know, just to explain briefly, you
know, neurofeedback is really anykind of system, and usually we're
using a computer based system, whereyou're getting real time information
about what's happening in the brain.
So neuro brain feedback,you're getting information.
(01:49):
So it's really biofeedback.
It's the same as biofeedback, exceptinstead of measuring something like skin
temperature or muscle tension, we'remeasuring usually brainwave activity.
And you know, the reason that that isa useful strategy is because we know
that if you give the brain certaininformation, so you tell it what you
(02:10):
want it to do, the brain will respond.
And that's really what we're doingwith neurofeedback is measuring certain
signals, giving some sort of informationback to the person watching it.
So they can, it's like a mirror.
It's a mirror of yourown brainwave activity.
And it's usually represented bysomething like, you know, music or some
sort of images on a screen that willchange in response to your brainwaves.
(02:34):
And so then what that does is it allowsus to teach the brain to change patterns.
And usually the idea is to try tohelp the brain be more flexible, be
more adaptive, so move out of whateverstuck patterns it happens to be in.
And so we use that for a varietyof mental health conditions, uh, at
(02:55):
least that's where I use it becausemy background is as a psychologist.
And, you know, to answer youroriginal question, I got into
this in a very sort of odd way.
I was finishing mylicensure as a psychologist.
So this is whatever, 25 years ago,and was offered a part time position
at a counseling center at theuniversity that I was affiliated with.
(03:19):
And so I said, yes.
And it turns out they had abiofeedback lab on the third floor
that was pretty much not used.
Nobody ever used it.
I didn't even know what it was.
And they had threeneurofeedback systems up there.
And these were ancient.
These had to be like the firstneurofeedback systems ever created.
(03:39):
And so, you know, I got very curious.
And there was only one person in the wholebuilding that knew anything about it.
And so I said, hey, teach me this.
And, uh, very nice guy and,uh, he said, let's start with
temperature and I was like, okay.
And so, you know, you can learntemperature biofeedback in about
five minutes and, uh, you know, hewanted to take it nice and slow.
(04:03):
And I said, I can't wait this long.
I got to do this.
And so literally I found thefirst training I could find
and, and just jumped in.
And as soon as I discovered what itwas, I knew it's what I wanted to do.
And so, you know, the restis history as they say.
Friederike Fabritius (04:20):
Yeah, but that's pretty cool.
There's so many things I likehere about what you said.
First of all, I think it's such agift to gain control over your brain
rather than your brain controlling you.
So I think that's so fascinating that wecan teach the brain to change pattern.
I mean, haven't we all been stuckthat you ruminate before you fall
asleep or you're obsessing aboutsomething or you're always in a stress
(04:43):
mode and you're unable to relax.
Or you're too relaxed and you'renever really getting up the
motivation to do something.
And I love the fact that it's nota pill you have to take, you know,
it's not something artificialthat you have to like substitute.
You're teaching your own brainto to pretty much work better.
I think that's so cool.
(05:03):
So I've been experimentingwith it since I think 2010.
That was the first time I got certified
Jeff Tarrant (05:10):
A pertty long time.
Friederike Fabritius (05:11):
Yeah, way back.
And I used it on some executivesand back then they all thought
I was completely crazy.
You know, I came in with likemy, my suitcase and with a set up
and everybody was thinking like,what is that weird lady doing?
And, you know, it was very unusualbecause back then people didn't have
any of these like fitness trackers.
(05:32):
There wasn't muchbiohacking or any of that.
And it was a glass building pretty much.
So the company had a headquarter whereeverybody could see everyone pretty much
as the people I was working with, theywere wearing these like weird headsets.
And so everybody was interested.
But what I also like about your storyis that, you know, I think you have
(05:54):
that curiosity because that technologywas there and nobody was using it.
It was just like a waste and to goin there and discover it, well, I'm
very glad you did because I feel like,well, we will get to your specific
technique, but I feel there's somuch we can do with that technology.
So, so you said the clue or the goalis to be more flexible so that your
(06:19):
brain can shift states, correct?
Jeff Tarrant (06:22):
Yeah.
Friederike Fabritius (06:22):
So, I mostly work with healthy people or like in
peak performance and with executives.
So I'm mostly interested, I know youcan use it with all kinds of problems,
but let's say you have someone come in,a successful person, that just wants
(06:43):
to improve their own brain functioning.
How would you, like,what's the first step?
What do you do?
Like, how does it work?
Jeff Tarrant (06:50):
Yeah, you know, and that's, you know, that's a very
different in some ways approach, right?
You know, if somebody is coming inand they've got anxiety that they
want to deal with, that's one thing.
But if somebody is functioning reallywell, uh, but they want more, right?
Like, how can I function even better?
How can I get to that next level?
Whatever that is.
And you know, I think part of it iswhat you said earlier, which is what we
(07:15):
really want is for people to be able toshift states of consciousness at will.
Can you get into whatever stateyou need to be in easily and
efficiently and just shift gears?
You know, at the drop of a dime,and that's even for, for, even
for healthy people, that is notthe easiest thing in the world.
(07:36):
And so neurofeedback can be reallyuseful that way because you can use it
to help people to shift into sort of arelaxed state and shift into a focused
state and shift into a still state.
And so whatever it is thatyou want to kind of work with.
But one of the ways I like working withit with peak performance, is to ask them
to be able to do all of these things andso, you know, maybe that's the beginning
(08:00):
of training like let's try this one.
See if you can do that.
Okay, let's try this one,let's see if you can do that.
But then even within one sessionshifting and going like we're gonna
do five minutes of this, then we'regonna do five minutes of this.
So really what you're doing isyou're teaching that flexibility.
You can even do it in a way, i'veseen this done, which I really like I
(08:20):
think it's a really clever strategy,so like a lot of times we would reduce
theta for improved focus or thingslike that, but i've seen trainings
where you reduce theta for a minute,and then you enhance theta for a
minute, and then you reduce theta for aminute, and then you enhance it again.
So, again, it's that flexibility.
(08:41):
Can you, can you move yourbrainwaves however you want?
And, yeah, very few peoplecan really do that well.
So, uh, you know, that's a, that's itsown whole different type of training.
Friederike Fabritius (08:53):
Yeah.
And, and let's get into the, to the brainwaves now for a second, because I would
like for you to maybe quickly explainwhat the different brain waves are,
because you mentioned Theta, and thereare all these different brain waves,
and maybe you can give us an overviewof what they do, like, what is it?
(09:14):
What is Theta?
Jeff Tarrant (09:16):
Sure.
Yeah, yeah.
Good point, right?
I'm just assuming people knowwhat the heck I'm talking about.
Um, so, you know,brainwaves are electricity.
Our brain produces electricity.
That's part of how it communicateswithin itself and between
other parts of the body.
And there's differentfrequencies of electricity.
It's not just one thing.
(09:38):
So I think the easiest way formost people to understand it
is thinking how light works.
And so thinking about a beam ofwhite light, a beam of white light
actually contains all of the colors.
It contains all of the frequenciesof light are within white, but you
don't see that unless you filter it.
So if you run the white light through aprism or through a raindrop, then all of a
(10:02):
sudden you see all of these other colors.
And so I think that's reallyinstructive with brainwaves
because that's how brainwaves are.
You know, we see the littlesquiggle line on the screen and
that's kind of like white light.
There's actually a whole bunch ofdifferent frequencies in there.
You can think of them as colorsof brain waves, but instead of
colors, we give them little names.
(10:22):
So Delta, Theta, Alpha, Beta,Gamma, those are the basic ones.
And so that's going fromslow brain waves to fast.
And so a slow brain wave only has a fewrepetitions within a second of time.
So if you look at that wave,it's just a very slow pattern.
So like delta is usually betweenlike zero and four cycles per second
(10:47):
or zero and four hertz, whereasgamma on the other end can be, you
know, 35 to 50 cycles per second.
So it's much faster.
And so the interesting thing is that, youknow, of course, our brain is producing
all of these frequencies all the time.
Everywhere.
So the issue becomes how much, what'sthe relationship between these different
(11:10):
brain waves and that's what reallyaffects states of consciousness.
And so, even though we havethem all, all the time.
If delta is really strong in aparticular moment, if it's really
high, then you're probably unconscious.
Delta is a really slow brainwave andit's really hard to stay alert and
(11:32):
stay functioning in your consciousmind if there's too much slow activity.
So we associate it with sleep.
Theta, which is the one I mentioneda moment ago, is, it's a little bit
faster, but it's still a slow brainwave.
And it can be associated with sortof falling asleep in that twilight
state, but it can also be associatedwith things like memory or the
(11:54):
subconscious mind, uh, certain statesof meditation, things like that.
Alpha is a little bit faster.
This is kind of therelaxed baseline state.
This is where, you know, wewant people to be hanging out.
It's kind of like you're neutral.
It's like the brain is ready,but it's also relaxed, right?
(12:15):
It's a nice, everybody likes alpha.
Everybody likes alpha.
It's, it's, uh, it's just pleasant.
And then we started gettinginto the fast brainwaves.
Friederike Fabritius (12:24):
Yeah, and it's good to be able to
like, go back to that at will.
I remember that I won't interrupt youhere, but you know, I was just thinking
back then when I started out, what,what I was doing was reducing high beta
and teaching people to get into alphato kind of get that little alpha break.
Um, because these were like people whowere like always on kind of stressed.
(12:47):
And so if you can tap into your alpha.
I think that can be very good becauseit teaches you to relax to not always be
like tense and but but please continue.
I really like the whitelight beam comparison.
I think that's that's a good one.
Jeff Tarrant (13:03):
Yeah, I'm not sure where I heard that first.
I'm sure I'm I'm borrowingit from somebody.
So whoever I'm borrowingit from, thank you.
Uh, Um, yeah.
And so, you know, after alpha, we startgetting into the faster brain waves.
So like beta, which we can thinkof is just processing, thinking,
analyzing, doing the brain is active.
(13:24):
It's doing something.
And then above that, you know,we can get into high beta.
That's another, um,kind of frequency range.
That's on the higher end ofbeta, high beta, and you know,
it also signifies activity.
There's some sort of activity going.
Although if there's too much highbeta, it can make us feel anxious
(13:47):
or agitated or too intense.
Right.
So, because again, it's faster
and then we have gamma and gamma is kindof a special brainwave in some ways,
because even though it's the fastest onethat we deal with right now, you know, and
you would think of it maybe as being evenmore anxiety provoking than high beta.
It doesn't really seemto have that quality.
(14:09):
In fact, it has more of a quality ofbeing in a flow state of integrating high
level information, but without effort.
And so there's a lot ofinterest right now with gamma.
for that reason, that it seems to beassociated with some special states
of consciousness that everybody wants.
Friederike Fabritius (14:27):
Totally.
I was at the Max Planck Institutefor brain research with Wolf Singer
and they were all about gamma.
It was like all aboutsynchrony and binding.
So it was all about finding gammamostly in like animals brains.
Um, but it's a veryspecial frequency, right?
And people, well, I'm not sayingthey don't know what it does, but
(14:49):
there's a lot of speculation still,like, does it, is it aha-insight?
Is it like integrating,making connections?
So I was wondering, I know you cantrain alpha, beta, well, delta, theta,
beta, all of that, but with gamma, Ithink, since it's a close to muscle
(15:10):
activity, can you train gamma in any way?
Like if somebody says, I want tolike, is there any way to do that?
Would you, have you ever done that?
Jeff Tarrant (15:18):
Yeah.
So that is a tricky one becauseit is getting closer to, you know,
muscle tension and it does gethard to distinguish those things.
And especially if you're up by theeyes, if you're up by the front of
the head, it's really complicatedto distinguish gamma from noise,
basically noise in the, in the signal.
(15:39):
However, I have worked withgamma, but it's in a little
bit of a different context.
And, you know, it's certainly notup in the well, sometimes it's in
the frontal lobe, but a lot of timeswe'll use it when the eyes are closed.
And, you know, and so We're reducingas much muscle tension as possible.
So the person is sitting very still, theireyes are closed, their feedback is audio.
(16:03):
So they're not looking at anything.
And it does seem to be a real gammasignal because you can see it change
in relation to states of consciousness.
And so just to give a simple example,you know, we know that certain
states of meditation increase gamma.
So we've got lots andlots of data about that.
Friederike Fabritius (16:25):
Yeah.
Jeff Tarrant (16:25):
And so you can see that you can see when somebody is
meditating that, you know, maybe overthe course of 15 minutes, you'll see
that gamma ramp up in interesting ways.
And it seems to correspond withcertain states of consciousness.
So I think we can use gammaand we can use it effectively.
I think it just depends a littlebit on what we're doing with it.
(16:48):
What kind of training we're doing.
Friederike Fabritius (16:50):
Right?
Yeah, I think you need to bereally skilled so that you
don't train the muscle tension.
And so very few people are doing it.
And also, I think people are a bit shyabout altered states of consciousness.
you know, like most neurofeedbackpractitioners stick to the standard.
And I don't mean this in a bad way,like stick to the alpha, the high beta,
(17:13):
but like to get into this, we willget to this, um, in another episode.
So for today, I would love to thank you.
I think it was absolutely fascinating.
Like I've read both of your books.
I can just recommend everybody to do that.
Can you tell us the titles of your book?
Jeff Tarrant (17:29):
Yeah, that one's called, uh, Meditation
Interventions to Rewire the Brain.
Friederike Fabritius (17:35):
Yeah.
I feel like this was a reallycool book because it's simple.
It's science based it'spractical, it's useful.
So I recommend everyone to check that out.
So thank you so much, Jeff , thanksfor sharing this with us.
Jeff Tarrant (17:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
Anytime.
undefined
I'm back in the studiowith Dr. Jeff Tarrant.
And I have to tell you that I'veread both of his books, and I came
across his work in a very lengthyscience based, very complicated book.
And every single article inthat book was so complicated.
And then
I came across Dr. Tarrant's book andI was like, Oh my God, this is simple.
(00:28):
It's science based.
It's explained with such a clarity.
Friederike Fabritius (00:31):
So I felt I have to have him here on the show.
Because what I love about it is that,well, I won't tell you too much about
it, but he's the founder and directorof the Neuromeditation Institute.
And he's, I think really atthe forefront of neurofeedback
technology, and neuroscience.
He's a licensed psychologist.
(00:52):
And he has founded, or I wouldsay invented, a technique
called neuromeditation thatI want to discuss with him.
So welcome to the show.
Hello, Dr. Tarrant.
Hello, Jeff.
Jeff Tarrant (01:05):
Hi, nice to see you again.
Thanks for inviting me on.
Friederike Fabritius (01:07):
Yeah.
So I would like to start out byunderstanding a little bit more about
neurofeedback because I think manyof our listeners, well, maybe they
will surprise us and they know whatit is, but it's not very mainstream.
I think it didn't get theattention it deserves.
Let's put it that way.
So, can you tell us, how did youget into the field of neurofeedback?
Jeff Tarrant (01:29):
Yeah, and, and, you know, just to explain briefly, you
know, neurofeedback is really anykind of system, and usually we're
using a computer based system, whereyou're getting real time information
about what's happening in the brain.
So neuro brain feedback,you're getting information.
(01:49):
So it's really biofeedback.
It's the same as biofeedback, exceptinstead of measuring something like skin
temperature or muscle tension, we'remeasuring usually brainwave activity.
And you know, the reason that that isa useful strategy is because we know
that if you give the brain certaininformation, so you tell it what you
(02:10):
want it to do, the brain will respond.
And that's really what we're doingwith neurofeedback is measuring certain
signals, giving some sort of informationback to the person watching it.
So they can, it's like a mirror.
It's a mirror of yourown brainwave activity.
And it's usually represented bysomething like, you know, music or some
sort of images on a screen that willchange in response to your brainwaves.
(02:34):
And so then what that does is it allowsus to teach the brain to change patterns.
And usually the idea is to try tohelp the brain be more flexible, be
more adaptive, so move out of whateverstuck patterns it happens to be in.
And so we use that for a varietyof mental health conditions, uh, at
(02:55):
least that's where I use it becausemy background is as a psychologist.
And, you know, to answer youroriginal question, I got into
this in a very sort of odd way.
I was finishing mylicensure as a psychologist.
So this is whatever, 25 years ago,and was offered a part time position
at a counseling center at theuniversity that I was affiliated with.
(03:19):
And so I said, yes.
And it turns out they had abiofeedback lab on the third floor
that was pretty much not used.
Nobody ever used it.
I didn't even know what it was.
And they had threeneurofeedback systems up there.
And these were ancient.
These had to be like the firstneurofeedback systems ever created.
(03:39):
And so, you know, I got very curious.
And there was only one person in the wholebuilding that knew anything about it.
And so I said, hey, teach me this.
And, uh, very nice guy and,uh, he said, let's start with
temperature and I was like, okay.
And so, you know, you can learntemperature biofeedback in about
five minutes and, uh, you know, hewanted to take it nice and slow.
(04:03):
And I said, I can't wait this long.
I got to do this.
And so literally I found thefirst training I could find
and, and just jumped in.
And as soon as I discovered what itwas, I knew it's what I wanted to do.
And so, you know, the restis history as they say.
Friederike Fabritius (04:20):
Yeah, but that's pretty cool.
There's so many things I likehere about what you said.
First of all, I think it's such agift to gain control over your brain
rather than your brain controlling you.
So I think that's so fascinating that wecan teach the brain to change pattern.
I mean, haven't we all been stuckthat you ruminate before you fall
asleep or you're obsessing aboutsomething or you're always in a stress
(04:43):
mode and you're unable to relax.
Or you're too relaxed and you'renever really getting up the
motivation to do something.
And I love the fact that it's nota pill you have to take, you know,
it's not something artificialthat you have to like substitute.
You're teaching your own brainto to pretty much work better.
I think that's so cool.
(05:03):
So I've been experimentingwith it since I think 2010.
That was the first time I got certified
Jeff Tarrant (05:10):
A pertty long time.
Friederike Fabritius (05:11):
Yeah, way back.
And I used it on some executivesand back then they all thought
I was completely crazy.
You know, I came in with likemy, my suitcase and with a set up
and everybody was thinking like,what is that weird lady doing?
And, you know, it was very unusualbecause back then people didn't have
any of these like fitness trackers.
(05:32):
There wasn't muchbiohacking or any of that.
And it was a glass building pretty much.
So the company had a headquarter whereeverybody could see everyone pretty much
as the people I was working with, theywere wearing these like weird headsets.
And so everybody was interested.
But what I also like about your storyis that, you know, I think you have
(05:54):
that curiosity because that technologywas there and nobody was using it.
It was just like a waste and to goin there and discover it, well, I'm
very glad you did because I feel like,well, we will get to your specific
technique, but I feel there's somuch we can do with that technology.
So, so you said the clue or the goalis to be more flexible so that your
(06:19):
brain can shift states, correct?
Jeff Tarrant (06:22):
Yeah.
Friederike Fabritius (06:22):
So, I mostly work with healthy people or like in
peak performance and with executives.
So I'm mostly interested, I know youcan use it with all kinds of problems,
but let's say you have someone come in,a successful person, that just wants
(06:43):
to improve their own brain functioning.
How would you, like,what's the first step?
What do you do?
Like, how does it work?
Jeff Tarrant (06:50):
Yeah, you know, and that's, you know, that's a very
different in some ways approach, right?
You know, if somebody is coming inand they've got anxiety that they
want to deal with, that's one thing.
But if somebody is functioning reallywell, uh, but they want more, right?
Like, how can I function even better?
How can I get to that next level?
Whatever that is.
And you know, I think part of it iswhat you said earlier, which is what we
(07:15):
really want is for people to be able toshift states of consciousness at will.
Can you get into whatever stateyou need to be in easily and
efficiently and just shift gears?
You know, at the drop of a dime,and that's even for, for, even
for healthy people, that is notthe easiest thing in the world.
(07:36):
And so neurofeedback can be reallyuseful that way because you can use it
to help people to shift into sort of arelaxed state and shift into a focused
state and shift into a still state.
And so whatever it is thatyou want to kind of work with.
But one of the ways I like working withit with peak performance, is to ask them
to be able to do all of these things andso, you know, maybe that's the beginning
(08:00):
of training like let's try this one.
See if you can do that.
Okay, let's try this one,let's see if you can do that.
But then even within one sessionshifting and going like we're gonna
do five minutes of this, then we'regonna do five minutes of this.
So really what you're doing isyou're teaching that flexibility.
You can even do it in a way, i'veseen this done, which I really like I
(08:20):
think it's a really clever strategy,so like a lot of times we would reduce
theta for improved focus or thingslike that, but i've seen trainings
where you reduce theta for a minute,and then you enhance theta for a
minute, and then you reduce theta for aminute, and then you enhance it again.
So, again, it's that flexibility.
(08:41):
Can you, can you move yourbrainwaves however you want?
And, yeah, very few peoplecan really do that well.
So, uh, you know, that's a, that's itsown whole different type of training.
Friederike Fabritius (08:53):
Yeah.
And, and let's get into the, to the brainwaves now for a second, because I would
like for you to maybe quickly explainwhat the different brain waves are,
because you mentioned Theta, and thereare all these different brain waves,
and maybe you can give us an overviewof what they do, like, what is it?
(09:14):
What is Theta?
Jeff Tarrant (09:16):
Sure.
Yeah, yeah.
Good point, right?
I'm just assuming people knowwhat the heck I'm talking about.
Um, so, you know,brainwaves are electricity.
Our brain produces electricity.
That's part of how it communicateswithin itself and between
other parts of the body.
And there's differentfrequencies of electricity.
It's not just one thing.
(09:38):
So I think the easiest way formost people to understand it
is thinking how light works.
And so thinking about a beam ofwhite light, a beam of white light
actually contains all of the colors.
It contains all of the frequenciesof light are within white, but you
don't see that unless you filter it.
So if you run the white light through aprism or through a raindrop, then all of a
(10:02):
sudden you see all of these other colors.
And so I think that's reallyinstructive with brainwaves
because that's how brainwaves are.
You know, we see the littlesquiggle line on the screen and
that's kind of like white light.
There's actually a whole bunch ofdifferent frequencies in there.
You can think of them as colorsof brain waves, but instead of
colors, we give them little names.
(10:22):
So Delta, Theta, Alpha, Beta,Gamma, those are the basic ones.
And so that's going fromslow brain waves to fast.
And so a slow brain wave only has a fewrepetitions within a second of time.
So if you look at that wave,it's just a very slow pattern.
So like delta is usually betweenlike zero and four cycles per second
(10:47):
or zero and four hertz, whereasgamma on the other end can be, you
know, 35 to 50 cycles per second.
So it's much faster.
And so the interesting thing is that, youknow, of course, our brain is producing
all of these frequencies all the time.
Everywhere.
So the issue becomes how much, what'sthe relationship between these different
(11:10):
brain waves and that's what reallyaffects states of consciousness.
And so, even though we havethem all, all the time.
If delta is really strong in aparticular moment, if it's really
high, then you're probably unconscious.
Delta is a really slow brainwave andit's really hard to stay alert and
(11:32):
stay functioning in your consciousmind if there's too much slow activity.
So we associate it with sleep.
Theta, which is the one I mentioneda moment ago, is, it's a little bit
faster, but it's still a slow brainwave.
And it can be associated with sortof falling asleep in that twilight
state, but it can also be associatedwith things like memory or the
(11:54):
subconscious mind, uh, certain statesof meditation, things like that.
Alpha is a little bit faster.
This is kind of therelaxed baseline state.
This is where, you know, wewant people to be hanging out.
It's kind of like you're neutral.
It's like the brain is ready,but it's also relaxed, right?
(12:15):
It's a nice, everybody likes alpha.
Everybody likes alpha.
It's, it's, uh, it's just pleasant.
And then we started gettinginto the fast brainwaves.
Friederike Fabritius (12:24):
Yeah, and it's good to be able to
like, go back to that at will.
I remember that I won't interrupt youhere, but you know, I was just thinking
back then when I started out, what,what I was doing was reducing high beta
and teaching people to get into alphato kind of get that little alpha break.
Um, because these were like people whowere like always on kind of stressed.
(12:47):
And so if you can tap into your alpha.
I think that can be very good becauseit teaches you to relax to not always be
like tense and but but please continue.
I really like the whitelight beam comparison.
I think that's that's a good one.
Jeff Tarrant (13:03):
Yeah, I'm not sure where I heard that first.
I'm sure I'm I'm borrowingit from somebody.
So whoever I'm borrowingit from, thank you.
Uh, Um, yeah.
And so, you know, after alpha, we startgetting into the faster brain waves.
So like beta, which we can thinkof is just processing, thinking,
analyzing, doing the brain is active.
(13:24):
It's doing something.
And then above that, you know,we can get into high beta.
That's another, um,kind of frequency range.
That's on the higher end ofbeta, high beta, and you know,
it also signifies activity.
There's some sort of activity going.
Although if there's too much highbeta, it can make us feel anxious
(13:47):
or agitated or too intense.
Right.
So, because again, it's faster
and then we have gamma and gamma is kindof a special brainwave in some ways,
because even though it's the fastest onethat we deal with right now, you know, and
you would think of it maybe as being evenmore anxiety provoking than high beta.
It doesn't really seemto have that quality.
(14:09):
In fact, it has more of a quality ofbeing in a flow state of integrating high
level information, but without effort.
And so there's a lot ofinterest right now with gamma.
for that reason, that it seems to beassociated with some special states
of consciousness that everybody wants.
Friederike Fabritius (14:27):
Totally.
I was at the Max Planck Institutefor brain research with Wolf Singer
and they were all about gamma.
It was like all aboutsynchrony and binding.
So it was all about finding gammamostly in like animals brains.
Um, but it's a veryspecial frequency, right?
And people, well, I'm not sayingthey don't know what it does, but
(14:49):
there's a lot of speculation still,like, does it, is it aha-insight?
Is it like integrating,making connections?
So I was wondering, I know you cantrain alpha, beta, well, delta, theta,
beta, all of that, but with gamma, Ithink, since it's a close to muscle
(15:10):
activity, can you train gamma in any way?
Like if somebody says, I want tolike, is there any way to do that?
Would you, have you ever done that?
Jeff Tarrant (15:18):
Yeah.
So that is a tricky one becauseit is getting closer to, you know,
muscle tension and it does gethard to distinguish those things.
And especially if you're up by theeyes, if you're up by the front of
the head, it's really complicatedto distinguish gamma from noise,
basically noise in the, in the signal.
(15:39):
However, I have worked withgamma, but it's in a little
bit of a different context.
And, you know, it's certainly notup in the well, sometimes it's in
the frontal lobe, but a lot of timeswe'll use it when the eyes are closed.
And, you know, and so We're reducingas much muscle tension as possible.
So the person is sitting very still, theireyes are closed, their feedback is audio.
(16:03):
So they're not looking at anything.
And it does seem to be a real gammasignal because you can see it change
in relation to states of consciousness.
And so just to give a simple example,you know, we know that certain
states of meditation increase gamma.
So we've got lots andlots of data about that.
Friederike Fabritius (16:25):
Yeah.
Jeff Tarrant (16:25):
And so you can see that you can see when somebody is
meditating that, you know, maybe overthe course of 15 minutes, you'll see
that gamma ramp up in interesting ways.
And it seems to correspond withcertain states of consciousness.
So I think we can use gammaand we can use it effectively.
I think it just depends a littlebit on what we're doing with it.
(16:48):
What kind of training we're doing.
Friederike Fabritius (16:50):
Right?
Yeah, I think you need to bereally skilled so that you
don't train the muscle tension.
And so very few people are doing it.
And also, I think people are a bit shyabout altered states of consciousness.
you know, like most neurofeedbackpractitioners stick to the standard.
And I don't mean this in a bad way,like stick to the alpha, the high beta,
(17:13):
but like to get into this, we willget to this, um, in another episode.
So for today, I would love to thank you.
I think it was absolutely fascinating.
Like I've read both of your books.
I can just recommend everybody to do that.
Can you tell us the titles of your book?
Jeff Tarrant (17:29):
Yeah, that one's called, uh, Meditation
Interventions to Rewire the Brain.
Friederike Fabritius (17:35):
Yeah.
I feel like this was a reallycool book because it's simple.
It's science based it'spractical, it's useful.
So I recommend everyone to check that out.
So thank you so much, Jeff , thanksfor sharing this with us.
Jeff Tarrant (17:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
Anytime.
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com