March 22, 2025 • 20 mins
Meditation: One Size Does Not Fit All
Exploring Neuromeditation with Dr. Jeff Tarrant
In this episode, Friederike Fabritius talks with Dr. Jeff Tarrant, founder and CEO of the Neuromeditation Institute, about the fundamentals of neuromeditation—a brain-based approach to meditation. They explore this western approach to meditation and discuss the importance of personalized mindfulness practices, highlighting that a one-size-fits-all approach is not effective for everyone. The discussion covers how different types of meditation can target specific goals such as improving sleep, managing depression, or enhancing cognitive control. TThey also examine the challenges of maintaining focus in the digital age and the detrimental effect that can have on your brain. The pair share how neuromeditation can be a tool to overcome modern distractions and repair the impact of constant distractions. Additionally, Dr. Tarrant explains the use of neurofeedback technology to provide real-time feedback during meditation, helping users in achieving meditative states more effectively. For more information, visit neuromeditationinstitute.com.
00:00 Introduction to Neuromeditation
00:23 Understanding the Fundamentals
02:18 Personalizing Meditation Practices
04:19 Focus and Mindfulness in Meditation
06:46 Challenges That Are Faced
12:07 Using Technology in Meditation
19:22 How to Get Started with Neuromeditation
Follow Friederike on LinkedIn to stay connected and up to date on her neurohacks. And if you're looking for more brain-friendly insights be sure to subscribe to The Brain-Friendly Newsletter.
Dr. Jeff Tarrant is a pioneering neuroscientist, licensed psychologist, and expert in consciousness research, specializing in the intersection of meditation, brainwave technology, and intuitive abilities. He is the founder and director of the NeuroMeditation Institute in Eugene, OR, where he explores how technology-based interventions and meditative states can enhance mental health and cognitive function. Board-certified in neurofeedback, Dr. Tarrant’s research focuses on the brainwave changes associated with contemplative practices, altered states of consciousness, and technology-based interventions. He is the author of Meditation Interventions to Rewire the Brain
Websites: www.neuromeditationinstitute.com
Facebook: @NeuroMeditation
Youtube: @neuromeditationinstitute
Books: Meditation Interventions to Rewire the Brain
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Friederike Fabritius (00:05):
Hello, everyone, and welcome back.
I'm here with Dr. Jeff Tarrant,founder and CEO of the Neuromeditation
Institute, and today I would loveto talk about neuromeditation.
Hello, Jeff.
Jeff Tarrant (00:19):
Hi.
Hello.
Thanks for having me back.
Friederike Fabritius: It's such a pleasure. (00:22):
undefined
So, I would love to knowwhat is neuromeditation?
Jeff Tarrant (00:28):
Right?
So neuromeditation is, it's really abrain based approach to meditation.
It's kind of in the name, right?
Neuromeditation.
So really what we're doing is we'relooking at the practice of meditation,
but we're trying to take it from aplace of a scientific understanding.
What's actually happeningin the brain when we enter a
(00:49):
specific meditative states.
And then how can we use that toenhance our mental wellbeing?
And so it's really kind of asystem that's, that's more of a
Western approach to meditation.
Like how can we get more specificand more precise with our
practice to achieve our goals?
Friederike Fabritius (01:11):
Right.
And you know, I, I must say I cameacross your neuromeditation approach
and it absolutely blew my mind becauseI, I know that the first time I worked
with meditation was also in 20one0and we did classical mindfulness.
So I introduced mindfulnessin corporations.
So we did the, you know, thebody scan and everybody loved it.
(01:34):
It's sure useful, but what really blewmy mind with your approach, and I really
must say it's like a total game changerin my opinion, you say, you know, there's
not one size fits all with meditation.
It's not as simple.
And there was one statement in your book,I hope I quote you correctly, but you
said, first of all, you said, um, there'sno one size fits all with neuromeditation.
(01:59):
So I want to hear fromyou what that means.
And then I think you also saidthat meditation that feels good
is not necessarily what you need.
But let's start with the first one.
So I want to hear from youhow, what you're doing and why.
Jeff Tarrant (02:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the idea that meditation is not aone size fits all approach or maybe
shouldn't be, um, perceived thatway is, you know, let me take one
step back because it's true that incertain programs that exist, right?
You know, like, you got mindfulnessbased stress reduction or mindfulness
based cognitive therapy or whatever.
(02:38):
And these are very kind oforganized, structured ways of
teaching meditative practices.
And they work.
We have a lot of good data that they workand they work sort of generically, right?
Like for most people that show up.
So I want to acknowledgethat piece, right?
Because I'm also saying, well, but,and where the but comes in is that even
(02:59):
though those programs do seem to work ingeneral, they're not really addressing
individual needs or goals, right?
It's kind of teachingeverybody the basics.
Which are good.
That's a good thing.
But if you have a specific need, right,so if your motivation for meditating
is because you want to sleep better andsomebody else's motivation is because
(03:21):
they heard that it might help withdepression or somebody else heard that,
oh, maybe this can help with my ADHD.
Those are very different needs.
And so just giving everybody theexact same approach may not be
the most efficient way to get themwhere they're going, because there's
not just one style of meditation.
There's actually, well, if youbreak it down by what people call
(03:46):
different types of meditation, there'sliterally hundreds or thousands
of styles of meditation out there.
And they do different things.
They affect the brain differently.
And because they affect the braindifferently, they have a different impact
on these things that we're talking about.
So really the point that, that,that we try to make with that is
that if you really want to achieve acertain goal with meditation, we can
(04:10):
probably make it more personalized.
And identify which approach isgoing to get you there the quickest.
Friederike Fabritius (04:16):
Right.
So, I agree with you, meditationworks and whoever is not meditating
would benefit from picking it up.
But what I love about your approach,it's so science based because you
actually look at people's brains.
Look at their let's say predominantactivity and then give them the kind
of meditation that's good for them.
(04:37):
So, let's say if I was coming into yourpractice, let's say as a patient or like
a client and I you know, I want to learnhow to meditate, how would you start?
What do we do?
Jeff Tarrant (04:50):
I mean the first thing that I would want to do is is try to
get clear on on what your goals are.
You know, why are you coming in?
Why do you want to meditate?
And so, if you're coming infor spiritual development,
well, that's one thing, right?
And maybe I'm not theright person for that.
You know, um, there may be a different,
Friederike Fabritius (05:07):
Let's say I want to, I just want to
have greater cognitive control.
So let's say, for example, ifI'm upset about something, I want
to be able to like, let it go.
Jeff Tarrant (05:17):
Yeah.
Right.
So typically what I would do is,you I mean, actually, we have a quiz
that we developed that is kind ofhelpful, I think, to help people
identify, based on their concerns,which of these styles might be best.
But even just with that one littlesentence that you said, there was a
couple of things that stood out, right?
You said cognitive control, and yousaid being able to let things go,
(05:42):
um, or at least that's what I heard.
Friederike Fabritius (05:44):
Yeah.
Totally, yeah.
Jeff Tarrant (05:45):
So immediately I would be thinking about two
different styles of meditation.
I would be thinkingabout a focus practice.
Which most people aregoing to be familiar with.
It's a concentration practicewhere you're holding your attention
on a single object or target.
And it's a very basic practice, butas far as cognitive control, that's
(06:06):
exactly what you're learning to do.
You're learning to direct yourattention where you want it to go.
And I think what most of us experienceduring the day is the mind just kind
of It just goes wherever it wants togo and it's really hard to reign it in.
So in some ways that type of a practiceof focus practice is kind of like the
(06:29):
foundation, because if you don't havecognitive control, good luck doing
most any other meditation, right?
You have to be able todirect your attention.
Friederike Fabritius (06:39):
That's true.
And it's so hard.
And can I jump in here just quickly?
Because I was just thinking overthe course of your experience
with a focused meditation, arepeople today less able to focus?
Have you seen an impact fromsmartphones and modern life?
Would you say that it's been the same?
Or do you see that kind of developmentthat everybody's distracted and
(07:02):
has even more trouble focusing?
Jeff Tarrant (07:05):
I would agree with that.
I would say, you know, and Idon't think it's it's even in
the last five or ten years.
I think over the last 20 years, youknow, things have been speeding up our
access to information , you know, it'sto the point now we're really what
most people are doing is they're notreally digesting complex information.
(07:25):
They want bullet points, right?
It's like something that'sshort and to the point.
And this is, this is problematic becausethe brain adapts to whatever you give it.
And so if that's the kind of informationyou give the brain, that's what it adjusts
to, but then if you say, oh, I reallyneed you to focus for fifteen solid
minutes on something, uh, whoa, you know,it's not used to doing that anymore.
(07:50):
It doesn't know how to do it.
And so, I feel like meditationis actually an antidote for a lot
of the challenges that we see.
And, you know, just in our currentlifestyle, uh, you know, where we're
moving so fast and so busy and sodistracted that it's almost like we need
something else to balance the equation sothat we don't get just totally off track.
Friederike Fabritius (08:15):
Yeah.
Because being so distractedliterally changes your brain.
I think people don't realize it'snot just that it's unpleasant
and stressful to be distracted.
It changes how your brain operates.
And so it's very interesting for meto hear that you can actually see
that in real life in your clients.
(08:35):
Um, and that you actually havesomething that helps against that.
Because I think , we're all victimsto, you know, the attention economy
or where we just glued to our screens.
And I think it's, it's good to havesomething you can do to kind of
heal your brain or to protect yourbrain or to retrain your brain.
(08:57):
So yeah, very powerful.
So, so thank you.
Sorry for interrupting that, I justhad to ask because I was thinking, you
know, this is useful for so much more.
Jeff Tarrant (09:07):
Yeah.
Friederike Fabritius (09:08):
Okay.
So you would give me focusmeditation, I get that.
So I would like focus on, um, on a mantraor flame or depending on like, I know
you have eyes closed and eyes open.
So what, what else would you give me?
Jeff Tarrant (09:20):
Uh, the other one that I would think about would be mindfulness.
And, you know, we use that in a veryspecific way because I know mindfulness
in our culture right now is usedto describe virtually everything.
But, you know, we, we're really talkingabout mindfulness as a practice where you
are allowing whatever is present in yourfield of consciousness just to be there.
(09:47):
So whether it's an awareness of athought or a feeling or an awareness
of the external environment, you knowwhat you're seeing and hearing, but
it's like, it's like a pure experience.
Can you just experience what's happeningwithout attaching a label to it?
Or a narrative?
Can you just be in the presentmoment without grasping for
(10:11):
things that you like and pushingaway things that you don't like?
And this is actually really difficult.
It's really challenging to do.
But it's kind of the essence of whatyou had mentioned in terms of letting
go, because it's essentially beingable to step back and just be aware
of something without attachment.
(10:31):
It's like I'm not attached to this, right?
It's like I'm just observing it.
That's it.
That's all.
And so again, it's a perfect skillfor wanting to be able to let
go of things, be more flexible.
It's good for stress and anxietybecause of course we get obsessed
with certain feelings or thoughtsthat then cause us problems.
So those would be the two, right?
(10:52):
That immediately would jump to mind.
Friederike Fabritius: Makes total sense to me. (10:54):
undefined
And I'm also thinking that'salso in today's age of skill.
There's so much outrage and somuch, you know, people get upset
over the news, social media.
There's always something.
And so the ability to step back and justbe, and not like jump at every occasion
to be upset or angry, that's powerfulbecause every time you get upset,
(11:18):
what you're hurting is your own brain.
You know, nobody cares if you leavean angry comment on the internet,
like, well, maybe somebody willread it, but you know, it doesn't
change the world for the better.
You're not like changing anythingby getting upset or angry.
So, I do feel that it's importantto have that inner freedom.
(11:38):
In a world where there's like alot of change, a lot of things
that could trigger people.
And so I feel it's good to have thatability to just observe but not judge.
And so, okay, I've come in, weidentified I need those two things.
And probably a lot of otherstuff, but still, so what's next?
Like, what would you do?
Would you do like a brain scan?
(11:59):
What's next?
I want to hear.
Jeff Tarrant (12:02):
Yeah.
And it would depend a little bit.
Sometimes I'll do a brain scan to seekind of what the baseline brainwave
activity is sometimes that's helpful.
And seeing certain patterns that, thatmay help us move in the right direction.
Just to give a real simple example,if we did a brain scan and I saw a
lot of extra fast activity kind ofright down in the midline in the
(12:26):
frontal lobe, it's an area of thebrain, the anterior cingulate, right?
And usually if that area isoveractive, that person may have
difficulty shifting gears, right?
So it may be difficult to let go ofthings like we just talked about.
So sometimes looking at the brainwave pattern can give additional
information to support where we'regoing and saying, well, what can
(12:49):
we do to counterbalance that?
And so it may help usidentify where to go.
So we may do a brain map but from amore practical perspective, I would
be looking at one of two directions.
So, one direction would be kind ofusing more traditional techniques and
we really emphasize ways to meet peoplewhere they're at developmentally so that
(13:15):
we can make this practice achievable.
Because a lot of what we see toois that people get into meditation
and they find that it's sochallenging that they give up.
They give up before theyget any results at all.
And so we really want to meet peoplewhere they're at and take it in bite sized
chunks, make it easy to do, you know, givethem a lot of options for how to engage.
(13:39):
Again, it's not a one size fits all.
So how can we make it individualized?
So that's one approach.
The other approach is usingtechnology, especially neurofeedback,
as a way to help people feel,find, that state of meditation.
So by monitoring their brainwaveactivity, we can tell if they're
(13:59):
in a meditative state or not.
And so through some sort of audiofeedback, so like using meditation
music connected to the brainwaves,the music will get a little bit
louder when they're in the correctmeditative state and the music will
get softer when they get distractedand when the mind wanders, whatever.
And so using technology like that,I think of as sort of a power tool
(14:24):
to really help people move into adeeper meditative state quicker.
So again, depending on theperson, depending on what they're.
Their deal is we may go oneor both of those directions
Friederike Fabritius (14:37):
But you know what?
I think it's such a game changer andthe reason Is that learning usually
always involves feedback, like feedbackon how well you're doing and of course
if you're very meditative personand have a natural inclination, your
feedback might come from the meditation.
(14:59):
So you feel a certain way, maybe you havea lot of body awareness and then you get
that feedback from like interoception.
But if you're just startingout to meditate, to be honest,
you could just be sitting therethinking of your grocery list.
Or that your dog needs dog foodor something like this and spend
those 20 minutes meditating, but inreality you haven't meditated at all
(15:21):
you or you'd spend the time beingangry at your ex spouse or whatever.
So I love the idea thatyou get instant feedback.
Like, am I in the stateor am I not in the state?
And so I'm also wondering,well, here's a tricky question.
I know that, you know, Jeffand I, we have tried this.
I have like hooked up myself toan EEG and what happened to me the
(15:43):
first time I tried it was that, well,let's put it that way, I got instant
feedback that I was not focused andthat almost like stressed me out.
I'm not like blaming your technique.
Like the feedback is great, but whenyou're just starting out and you're
not getting it, that's also kind ofcrazy because you're kind of like,
oh, you know, you get also instantfeedback when you're not doing great.
(16:06):
And then you need to like, letgo of that and focus instead of
getting obsessed and obsessed overthe fact that you're not focused.
I found it very interesting.
Um, so how about that one?
Like, how do you overcome that problem?
That, well, I do think feedbackis helpful, but also if you're
not succeeding, then it can alsobe a little bit of a distraction.
(16:28):
How do you deal with that if somebody'strying so hard to focus and getting
obsessed about the fact that they're notfocused and then you kind of lose it?
Jeff Tarrant (16:36):
Yeah.
And you know, one of the things thatthe, the EEG feedback is really good at
picking up on is people who try too hard.
So, you know, if you are, if you areover-efforting to get into a meditative
state, it's, it's the easiest wayto get the brainwaves off track, you
know, is by, is by kind of pushing.
And so that's a huge challengebecause most of us, that's how
(16:58):
we orient toward a goal, right?
It's like, oh, I'm going towork hard for this thing.
And meditation is almostthe opposite, right?
It's like, somehow you have to relaxinto this state and almost like sort of
learn how to sort of find it by payingattention internally to what's happening
in conjunction with the feedback.
(17:19):
And so, you know, the beginning isusually tricky for people because,
you're doing several things here, right?
You're, you're trying to learn howto meditate, but now you've got this
feedback that's telling you, oh,you're doing it or you're not doing it.
What's going on?
You're trying to pay attention.
You're judging yourself.
You're doing all these things right?
It can be distracting initially.
And so part of the, the, the workat the beginning is learning how to
(17:43):
work with the feedback and, you know,it usually takes people two or three
sessions to really settle in and startto get, uh, you know, find their path.
The other thing that's really important,I think is, for most people, is working
with a coach or somebody that can helpyou in the process at the beginning.
(18:04):
Because it is, it's, it is different.
And it usually does take a littlebit of coaching to help people figure
out like what, what is going on?
Why am I not getting this?
Right?
You know?
And so being able to coach them,but then also somebody that can
know how to maneuver some of thefeedback so that you are actually
getting something that's useful.
(18:26):
Right?
Because the other thing that happened, asyou pointed out, is if it's too hard, then
people are going to get more frustratedand, you know, it's not going to work.
So, there's kind of an art tousing the technology, right?
There's art and science.
We can measure brain waves,we can do all this cool stuff.
That's the science.
But there's an art to figuring out,like, what's the right way to create
(18:48):
a setting so that the brain and theperson learn as efficiently as possible.
And that, that justtakes a lot of practice.
Friederike Fabritius: Yeah, but it's really cool. (18:56):
undefined
I've seen, I've not seen anybodydoing this like anywhere else.
So when I came across it, Ireally thought this is unique
because it is science based.
It's very practical.
And, um, to finish this sessionoff on neuromeditation, can you
maybe talk a little bit of likehow people, where people could
(19:19):
find you, how they could start out,like what the first steps would be.
Like if I now have listened to thisand I want to do it, which I think a
lot of people would want to do, likeI would if I was listening to this.
So, how can people get access to, to this?
Jeff Tarrant (19:32):
Yeah.
So our website isneuromeditationinstitute.com.
There's a lot of resources on there.
Uh, there's the quiz that we hadmentioned that people could take
to figure out what style, youknow, is the best match for them.
You know, we, we have different classesand trainings and things like that
that are also mentioned on the website.
(19:53):
If somebody really wants to, youknow, get involved, they want to
learn how to do some of this stuff.
There's, there's a lot ofdifferent resources there.
So really I would just directpeople to, to that website and start
looking around or just contact us.
Right?
Which our contact info ison the website as well.
Friederike Fabritius: Yeah, that's what I did. (20:13):
undefined
So thank you so much, Jeff.
That has been reallyinformative, really fantastic.
So thank you so muchfor being with us today.
Jeff Tarrant (20:24):
Thank you.
Hello, everyone, and welcome back.
I'm here with Dr. Jeff Tarrant,founder and CEO of the Neuromeditation
Institute, and today I would loveto talk about neuromeditation.
Hello, Jeff.
Jeff Tarrant (00:19):
Hi.
Hello.
Thanks for having me back.
Friederike Fabritius: It's such a pleasure. (00:22):
undefined
So, I would love to knowwhat is neuromeditation?
Jeff Tarrant (00:28):
Right?
So neuromeditation is, it's really abrain based approach to meditation.
It's kind of in the name, right?
Neuromeditation.
So really what we're doing is we'relooking at the practice of meditation,
but we're trying to take it from aplace of a scientific understanding.
What's actually happeningin the brain when we enter a
(00:49):
specific meditative states.
And then how can we use that toenhance our mental wellbeing?
And so it's really kind of asystem that's, that's more of a
Western approach to meditation.
Like how can we get more specificand more precise with our
practice to achieve our goals?
Friederike Fabritius (01:11):
Right.
And you know, I, I must say I cameacross your neuromeditation approach
and it absolutely blew my mind becauseI, I know that the first time I worked
with meditation was also in 20one0and we did classical mindfulness.
So I introduced mindfulnessin corporations.
So we did the, you know, thebody scan and everybody loved it.
(01:34):
It's sure useful, but what really blewmy mind with your approach, and I really
must say it's like a total game changerin my opinion, you say, you know, there's
not one size fits all with meditation.
It's not as simple.
And there was one statement in your book,I hope I quote you correctly, but you
said, first of all, you said, um, there'sno one size fits all with neuromeditation.
(01:59):
So I want to hear fromyou what that means.
And then I think you also saidthat meditation that feels good
is not necessarily what you need.
But let's start with the first one.
So I want to hear from youhow, what you're doing and why.
Jeff Tarrant (02:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the idea that meditation is not aone size fits all approach or maybe
shouldn't be, um, perceived thatway is, you know, let me take one
step back because it's true that incertain programs that exist, right?
You know, like, you got mindfulnessbased stress reduction or mindfulness
based cognitive therapy or whatever.
(02:38):
And these are very kind oforganized, structured ways of
teaching meditative practices.
And they work.
We have a lot of good data that they workand they work sort of generically, right?
Like for most people that show up.
So I want to acknowledgethat piece, right?
Because I'm also saying, well, but,and where the but comes in is that even
(02:59):
though those programs do seem to work ingeneral, they're not really addressing
individual needs or goals, right?
It's kind of teachingeverybody the basics.
Which are good.
That's a good thing.
But if you have a specific need, right,so if your motivation for meditating
is because you want to sleep better andsomebody else's motivation is because
(03:21):
they heard that it might help withdepression or somebody else heard that,
oh, maybe this can help with my ADHD.
Those are very different needs.
And so just giving everybody theexact same approach may not be
the most efficient way to get themwhere they're going, because there's
not just one style of meditation.
There's actually, well, if youbreak it down by what people call
(03:46):
different types of meditation, there'sliterally hundreds or thousands
of styles of meditation out there.
And they do different things.
They affect the brain differently.
And because they affect the braindifferently, they have a different impact
on these things that we're talking about.
So really the point that, that,that we try to make with that is
that if you really want to achieve acertain goal with meditation, we can
(04:10):
probably make it more personalized.
And identify which approach isgoing to get you there the quickest.
Friederike Fabritius (04:16):
Right.
So, I agree with you, meditationworks and whoever is not meditating
would benefit from picking it up.
But what I love about your approach,it's so science based because you
actually look at people's brains.
Look at their let's say predominantactivity and then give them the kind
of meditation that's good for them.
(04:37):
So, let's say if I was coming into yourpractice, let's say as a patient or like
a client and I you know, I want to learnhow to meditate, how would you start?
What do we do?
Jeff Tarrant (04:50):
I mean the first thing that I would want to do is is try to
get clear on on what your goals are.
You know, why are you coming in?
Why do you want to meditate?
And so, if you're coming infor spiritual development,
well, that's one thing, right?
And maybe I'm not theright person for that.
You know, um, there may be a different,
Friederike Fabritius (05:07):
Let's say I want to, I just want to
have greater cognitive control.
So let's say, for example, ifI'm upset about something, I want
to be able to like, let it go.
Jeff Tarrant (05:17):
Yeah.
Right.
So typically what I would do is,you I mean, actually, we have a quiz
that we developed that is kind ofhelpful, I think, to help people
identify, based on their concerns,which of these styles might be best.
But even just with that one littlesentence that you said, there was a
couple of things that stood out, right?
You said cognitive control, and yousaid being able to let things go,
(05:42):
um, or at least that's what I heard.
Friederike Fabritius (05:44):
Yeah.
Totally, yeah.
Jeff Tarrant (05:45):
So immediately I would be thinking about two
different styles of meditation.
I would be thinkingabout a focus practice.
Which most people aregoing to be familiar with.
It's a concentration practicewhere you're holding your attention
on a single object or target.
And it's a very basic practice, butas far as cognitive control, that's
(06:06):
exactly what you're learning to do.
You're learning to direct yourattention where you want it to go.
And I think what most of us experienceduring the day is the mind just kind
of It just goes wherever it wants togo and it's really hard to reign it in.
So in some ways that type of a practiceof focus practice is kind of like the
(06:29):
foundation, because if you don't havecognitive control, good luck doing
most any other meditation, right?
You have to be able todirect your attention.
Friederike Fabritius (06:39):
That's true.
And it's so hard.
And can I jump in here just quickly?
Because I was just thinking overthe course of your experience
with a focused meditation, arepeople today less able to focus?
Have you seen an impact fromsmartphones and modern life?
Would you say that it's been the same?
Or do you see that kind of developmentthat everybody's distracted and
(07:02):
has even more trouble focusing?
Jeff Tarrant (07:05):
I would agree with that.
I would say, you know, and Idon't think it's it's even in
the last five or ten years.
I think over the last 20 years, youknow, things have been speeding up our
access to information , you know, it'sto the point now we're really what
most people are doing is they're notreally digesting complex information.
(07:25):
They want bullet points, right?
It's like something that'sshort and to the point.
And this is, this is problematic becausethe brain adapts to whatever you give it.
And so if that's the kind of informationyou give the brain, that's what it adjusts
to, but then if you say, oh, I reallyneed you to focus for fifteen solid
minutes on something, uh, whoa, you know,it's not used to doing that anymore.
(07:50):
It doesn't know how to do it.
And so, I feel like meditationis actually an antidote for a lot
of the challenges that we see.
And, you know, just in our currentlifestyle, uh, you know, where we're
moving so fast and so busy and sodistracted that it's almost like we need
something else to balance the equation sothat we don't get just totally off track.
Friederike Fabritius (08:15):
Yeah.
Because being so distractedliterally changes your brain.
I think people don't realize it'snot just that it's unpleasant
and stressful to be distracted.
It changes how your brain operates.
And so it's very interesting for meto hear that you can actually see
that in real life in your clients.
(08:35):
Um, and that you actually havesomething that helps against that.
Because I think , we're all victimsto, you know, the attention economy
or where we just glued to our screens.
And I think it's, it's good to havesomething you can do to kind of
heal your brain or to protect yourbrain or to retrain your brain.
(08:57):
So yeah, very powerful.
So, so thank you.
Sorry for interrupting that, I justhad to ask because I was thinking, you
know, this is useful for so much more.
Jeff Tarrant (09:07):
Yeah.
Friederike Fabritius (09:08):
Okay.
So you would give me focusmeditation, I get that.
So I would like focus on, um, on a mantraor flame or depending on like, I know
you have eyes closed and eyes open.
So what, what else would you give me?
Jeff Tarrant (09:20):
Uh, the other one that I would think about would be mindfulness.
And, you know, we use that in a veryspecific way because I know mindfulness
in our culture right now is usedto describe virtually everything.
But, you know, we, we're really talkingabout mindfulness as a practice where you
are allowing whatever is present in yourfield of consciousness just to be there.
(09:47):
So whether it's an awareness of athought or a feeling or an awareness
of the external environment, you knowwhat you're seeing and hearing, but
it's like, it's like a pure experience.
Can you just experience what's happeningwithout attaching a label to it?
Or a narrative?
Can you just be in the presentmoment without grasping for
(10:11):
things that you like and pushingaway things that you don't like?
And this is actually really difficult.
It's really challenging to do.
But it's kind of the essence of whatyou had mentioned in terms of letting
go, because it's essentially beingable to step back and just be aware
of something without attachment.
(10:31):
It's like I'm not attached to this, right?
It's like I'm just observing it.
That's it.
That's all.
And so again, it's a perfect skillfor wanting to be able to let
go of things, be more flexible.
It's good for stress and anxietybecause of course we get obsessed
with certain feelings or thoughtsthat then cause us problems.
So those would be the two, right?
(10:52):
That immediately would jump to mind.
Friederike Fabritius: Makes total sense to me. (10:54):
undefined
And I'm also thinking that'salso in today's age of skill.
There's so much outrage and somuch, you know, people get upset
over the news, social media.
There's always something.
And so the ability to step back and justbe, and not like jump at every occasion
to be upset or angry, that's powerfulbecause every time you get upset,
(11:18):
what you're hurting is your own brain.
You know, nobody cares if you leavean angry comment on the internet,
like, well, maybe somebody willread it, but you know, it doesn't
change the world for the better.
You're not like changing anythingby getting upset or angry.
So, I do feel that it's importantto have that inner freedom.
(11:38):
In a world where there's like alot of change, a lot of things
that could trigger people.
And so I feel it's good to have thatability to just observe but not judge.
And so, okay, I've come in, weidentified I need those two things.
And probably a lot of otherstuff, but still, so what's next?
Like, what would you do?
Would you do like a brain scan?
(11:59):
What's next?
I want to hear.
Jeff Tarrant (12:02):
Yeah.
And it would depend a little bit.
Sometimes I'll do a brain scan to seekind of what the baseline brainwave
activity is sometimes that's helpful.
And seeing certain patterns that, thatmay help us move in the right direction.
Just to give a real simple example,if we did a brain scan and I saw a
lot of extra fast activity kind ofright down in the midline in the
(12:26):
frontal lobe, it's an area of thebrain, the anterior cingulate, right?
And usually if that area isoveractive, that person may have
difficulty shifting gears, right?
So it may be difficult to let go ofthings like we just talked about.
So sometimes looking at the brainwave pattern can give additional
information to support where we'regoing and saying, well, what can
(12:49):
we do to counterbalance that?
And so it may help usidentify where to go.
So we may do a brain map but from amore practical perspective, I would
be looking at one of two directions.
So, one direction would be kind ofusing more traditional techniques and
we really emphasize ways to meet peoplewhere they're at developmentally so that
(13:15):
we can make this practice achievable.
Because a lot of what we see toois that people get into meditation
and they find that it's sochallenging that they give up.
They give up before theyget any results at all.
And so we really want to meet peoplewhere they're at and take it in bite sized
chunks, make it easy to do, you know, givethem a lot of options for how to engage.
(13:39):
Again, it's not a one size fits all.
So how can we make it individualized?
So that's one approach.
The other approach is usingtechnology, especially neurofeedback,
as a way to help people feel,find, that state of meditation.
So by monitoring their brainwaveactivity, we can tell if they're
(13:59):
in a meditative state or not.
And so through some sort of audiofeedback, so like using meditation
music connected to the brainwaves,the music will get a little bit
louder when they're in the correctmeditative state and the music will
get softer when they get distractedand when the mind wanders, whatever.
And so using technology like that,I think of as sort of a power tool
(14:24):
to really help people move into adeeper meditative state quicker.
So again, depending on theperson, depending on what they're.
Their deal is we may go oneor both of those directions
Friederike Fabritius (14:37):
But you know what?
I think it's such a game changer andthe reason Is that learning usually
always involves feedback, like feedbackon how well you're doing and of course
if you're very meditative personand have a natural inclination, your
feedback might come from the meditation.
(14:59):
So you feel a certain way, maybe you havea lot of body awareness and then you get
that feedback from like interoception.
But if you're just startingout to meditate, to be honest,
you could just be sitting therethinking of your grocery list.
Or that your dog needs dog foodor something like this and spend
those 20 minutes meditating, but inreality you haven't meditated at all
(15:21):
you or you'd spend the time beingangry at your ex spouse or whatever.
So I love the idea thatyou get instant feedback.
Like, am I in the stateor am I not in the state?
And so I'm also wondering,well, here's a tricky question.
I know that, you know, Jeffand I, we have tried this.
I have like hooked up myself toan EEG and what happened to me the
(15:43):
first time I tried it was that, well,let's put it that way, I got instant
feedback that I was not focused andthat almost like stressed me out.
I'm not like blaming your technique.
Like the feedback is great, but whenyou're just starting out and you're
not getting it, that's also kind ofcrazy because you're kind of like,
oh, you know, you get also instantfeedback when you're not doing great.
(16:06):
And then you need to like, letgo of that and focus instead of
getting obsessed and obsessed overthe fact that you're not focused.
I found it very interesting.
Um, so how about that one?
Like, how do you overcome that problem?
That, well, I do think feedbackis helpful, but also if you're
not succeeding, then it can alsobe a little bit of a distraction.
(16:28):
How do you deal with that if somebody'strying so hard to focus and getting
obsessed about the fact that they're notfocused and then you kind of lose it?
Jeff Tarrant (16:36):
Yeah.
And you know, one of the things thatthe, the EEG feedback is really good at
picking up on is people who try too hard.
So, you know, if you are, if you areover-efforting to get into a meditative
state, it's, it's the easiest wayto get the brainwaves off track, you
know, is by, is by kind of pushing.
And so that's a huge challengebecause most of us, that's how
(16:58):
we orient toward a goal, right?
It's like, oh, I'm going towork hard for this thing.
And meditation is almostthe opposite, right?
It's like, somehow you have to relaxinto this state and almost like sort of
learn how to sort of find it by payingattention internally to what's happening
in conjunction with the feedback.
(17:19):
And so, you know, the beginning isusually tricky for people because,
you're doing several things here, right?
You're, you're trying to learn howto meditate, but now you've got this
feedback that's telling you, oh,you're doing it or you're not doing it.
What's going on?
You're trying to pay attention.
You're judging yourself.
You're doing all these things right?
It can be distracting initially.
And so part of the, the, the workat the beginning is learning how to
(17:43):
work with the feedback and, you know,it usually takes people two or three
sessions to really settle in and startto get, uh, you know, find their path.
The other thing that's really important,I think is, for most people, is working
with a coach or somebody that can helpyou in the process at the beginning.
(18:04):
Because it is, it's, it is different.
And it usually does take a littlebit of coaching to help people figure
out like what, what is going on?
Why am I not getting this?
Right?
You know?
And so being able to coach them,but then also somebody that can
know how to maneuver some of thefeedback so that you are actually
getting something that's useful.
(18:26):
Right?
Because the other thing that happened, asyou pointed out, is if it's too hard, then
people are going to get more frustratedand, you know, it's not going to work.
So, there's kind of an art tousing the technology, right?
There's art and science.
We can measure brain waves,we can do all this cool stuff.
That's the science.
But there's an art to figuring out,like, what's the right way to create
(18:48):
a setting so that the brain and theperson learn as efficiently as possible.
And that, that justtakes a lot of practice.
Friederike Fabritius: Yeah, but it's really cool. (18:56):
undefined
I've seen, I've not seen anybodydoing this like anywhere else.
So when I came across it, Ireally thought this is unique
because it is science based.
It's very practical.
And, um, to finish this sessionoff on neuromeditation, can you
maybe talk a little bit of likehow people, where people could
(19:19):
find you, how they could start out,like what the first steps would be.
Like if I now have listened to thisand I want to do it, which I think a
lot of people would want to do, likeI would if I was listening to this.
So, how can people get access to, to this?
Jeff Tarrant (19:32):
Yeah.
So our website isneuromeditationinstitute.com.
There's a lot of resources on there.
Uh, there's the quiz that we hadmentioned that people could take
to figure out what style, youknow, is the best match for them.
You know, we, we have different classesand trainings and things like that
that are also mentioned on the website.
(19:53):
If somebody really wants to, youknow, get involved, they want to
learn how to do some of this stuff.
There's, there's a lot ofdifferent resources there.
So really I would just directpeople to, to that website and start
looking around or just contact us.
Right?
Which our contact info ison the website as well.
Friederike Fabritius: Yeah, that's what I did. (20:13):
undefined
So thank you so much, Jeff.
That has been reallyinformative, really fantastic.
So thank you so muchfor being with us today.
Jeff Tarrant (20:24):
Thank you.
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