From Diet to Dopamine Detox: Rethinking Brain Health with Friederike Fabritius and Michael Long
In their second of three conversations, Friederike and Michael Long, bestselling author of The Molecule of More and its new follow-up, Taming the Molecule of More, take a look at practical strategies for managing dopamine. They answer questions such as: Is there a pill or supplement that can be taken to boost dopamine? And clarify common myths that people believe about its role in our brains and lives. The pair discuss the role of medications and the impact of GLP-1s, such as Ozempic, on dopamine, highlighting their potential in addressing compulsive behaviors and addiction. Michael also touches on the importance of gut health and its connection to dopamine, recommending prebiotics and probiotics. Finally, Michael and Friederike discuss what a “dopamine detox” would look like, and if it is something that is possible. They share practical advice on 'dopamine revitalization'—an alternative to extreme dopamine fasting, advocating for small, sustainable lifestyle changes.
00:33 The Myth of the Magic Dopamine Pill
1:44 Understanding Dopamine and Its Mechanisms
04:02 Exploring GLP-1s and Their Effects
09:57 The Role of Gut Health in Dopamine Regulation
12:44 Rethinking Dopamine Fasting
18:57 Conclusion and Next Week's Preview
Follow Friederike on LinkedIn to stay connected and up to date on her neurohacks.
And if you're looking for more brain-friendly insights be sure to subscribe to The Brain-Friendly Newsletter.
Trained as a physicist, Michael Long is the author of the new bookTaming the Molecule of More and co-author of the international bestseller The Molecule of More, books that have changed the way the world talks about dopamine. A longtime lecturer at Georgetown University, Mike is also a produced playwright, an award-winning screenwriter, and a speechwriter. In addition, he delivers keynotes and seminars around the world on creativity, the craft of professional writing, and the neuroscience behind modern behavior. If you ask him what his career is, he’ll tell you he’s a “professional explainer.” For more, visit MikeLongOnline.com or TamingTheMolecule.com.
Links:
https://TamingTheMolecule.com
https://www.tiktok.com/@tamingthemolecule
https://www.lemon8-app.com/@evmariexo?region=us
https://www.facebook.com/MoleculeOfMore
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Friederike Fabritius (00:05):
Hello everyone.
I'm here with Mike Long,bestselling author of The Molecule
of More, and his new book isout, Taming the Molecule of More.
We met last week and we introduceddopamine and heard about Mike's life,
and today I want to dig deeper intoall the different little things we can
do to really tame our dopamine system.
(00:26):
So hello, Mike.
Welcome back.
Mike Long (00:29):
Friederike, thank you for having me.
It's always pleasure to be here.
Friederike Fabritius (00:33):
Great.
So let me get started because everysingle time I talk about dopamine
anywhere, people always ask me,is there supplement I can take?
Is there a pill?
Is there something maybe Ican get an IV or something?
They always ask me about these quickhacks and I know you've done all the
research, so I wanna hear from you.
Is there any magic pill for dopamine?
Mike Long (00:55):
Oh, I wish there were, I wish there were.
I would take it, I would sell it.
I would be out here on the corner with it.
It's, it let me say a couple things.
I'm I, I have a direct answer for that.
And the answer is (01:07):
no.
There is not anything you cando to increase your dopamine
levels just sitting at your desk.
Now, are there medicationsthat a physician can prescribe
and I'm not a physician.
I'm a science person bynature and by training.
But are there thingsthat a doctor could do?
Absolutely.
But even those do not increase theamount of dopamine in your system.
(01:30):
What they do is they make thedopamine you have in your system,
hang around and work a little harder.
It's like hiring somebody and getting themto mow your lawn twice in a day instead
of just once or something like that.
You're getting a littlemore work out of them.
I have some specific things you couldtry that, that will, that you can
know about what will and won't work.
(01:51):
But I want people to understandwhen we talk about dopamine
levels, we're really talking aboutit in the wrong way entirely.
Not just wrong, but literally incorrect.
A lot of the things that we do,we go to the doctors say, oh,
what's your A1C or something?
And they do a blood test and there you go.
Dopamine doesn't primarilylive in your bloodstream.
Is there some in your blood?
Yes.
(02:11):
Does that dopamine have anythingto do with what we are talking
about in terms of the way themind functions, the way you feel?
No.
No, it doesn't.
In fact you can't getdopamine into the brain.
You can't, there's a barrier around yourbrain called the blood-brain barrier, and
it blocks dopamine and other molecules.
They're too big to get in there.
If it's not already in your brain orcoming up through your your spine and
(02:34):
the track there, it doesn't go in there.
When we talk about dopamine levels.
What we're really talking about isthe amount of activity in any given
dopamine cell, a good dopamine circuit.
We have a dopamine molecule that,again, we're having to round it
off, but it walks down the dendrite.
It makes these littleconnections and moves down.
(02:56):
And so, when it moves down this cell it islike a key looking for a lock and it hits
a lock on the other side of the synapse.
And it hits there, and thenit comes out, washes away.
And so we're raising dopamine levelsas we're taking these little keys
and we're making them, we're blockingthe exits and making it stay.
Look, I'm gettingfurther and further away.
We have these little molecules ofdopamine and they hit the receptor and
(03:18):
then they fall out of the receptor.
Instead of getting washedaway, we can take different
compounds and make them stay.
We can inhibit them.
From being a part ofthe re-uptake process.
You're familiar with this.
If you've had a depression medicine,those are called SSRI, serotonin
selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors.
(03:38):
There are dopamine re-uptakeinhibitors as well.
So all that to say, when we talkabout dopamine levels, we're talking
about the amount of activity inparticular circuits in the brain.
So you can't take a pill thatwill increase that that you
can buy over the counter.
So that's the background.
Now, if you'd I can talk a littleabout the the things that are possible
Friederike Fabritius (04:01):
For sure.
And I also want to maybe hear a littlebit about Ozempic because I think it's
very popular at the moment and you talkabout it in the book and it seems to
have a connection to the dopamine system.
So I wonder whether people are gonnastart to use it to, not just for weight
loss, but also to hit the dopamine system.
Mike Long (04:21):
Let, yeah, let's just jump right to that and we can
come back to this business aboutmedicine about other medicines.
But I do wanna tell, warn people offof something is that medications that
you get from your doctor can raisea sub-performing brain to normal.
Thank God for that though, if you'resuffering, by the way, if you're
suffering this if you're sufferingfrom a problem that's interfering
(04:44):
with your life, don't listen to me.
Go to a doctor and get some help.
I've suffered.
I've seen a doctor.
I got better.
You can get better.
There's no reason to suffer friends.
If you're listening,go see a psychiatrist.
Go see your MD. Get a referral.
There are ways to get help.
You don't have to suffer this alone.
(05:04):
But if you have like peoplesay I take Adderall during
finals week and I do better.
Yeah, you do better.
You know why?
It's a placebo effect.
Adderall will raise asub-performing brain, but it will
not raise a normal brain to beoverclocked or more performing.
Better performing.
If you do better with Adderall duringthat period, it's because you've
changed your focus in other ways.
But it's definitely not the Adderall.
(05:26):
And you can read my book andwe'll talk about the studies.
Let's talk about Ozempic.
I've had an experience with Ozempic.
I've lost about 15, 17% of my body weight.
I still have more to go.
I know I look like an Adonis, butyes, there's still more, more left.
The thing that, that that wetalk about with dopamine and
Ozempic, or any of the GLP-1.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Mm-hmm.
Mike Long (05:47):
We're talking about a double hit, and I'll just
tell you my experience with it.
I expected to have my appetite diminished,and that's a very powerful thing.
But those of us you mentioned inan earlier broadcast, we talked
about my, my love of pizza.
I love pizza so much.
And if you said rightnow let's go get a pizza.
(06:09):
It didn't matter if I just had breakfast.
I enjoy pizza.
I want pizza.
Let's go get a piece of pizza.
Let's do that.
And so Ozempic takes awaythe pleasure of the eating.
But it also does something surprising.
It takes away the desireto eat much at all.
(06:30):
It's like if someone saidyou'll never be in love again.
You'll never be in love again.
And you say well, okay,I, I could live with that.
If I get some trade for that I,I can never be in love again.
But if somebody said, you'll never evenfeel love anymore, you might think twice.
With food, with Ozempic, especiallyin the first few weeks of this thing,
it's not just I can take or leave ameal, it's that food is suddenly like
(06:54):
a stack of paper or a brick on a wall.
It's just.
It's just nothing to you.
It doesn't happen for everyone,but it happened to me.
And I would as I would be as happyeating as not ever eating again
during those periods of time.
And that's the strength of it.
Now we talk about how that, we cantalk about a lot of different things
(07:17):
in here, but here's where it comesto dopamine, which is what your
listeners is very interested in.
If what we've seen, I say we, theresearchers, I'm not a researcher,
what the researchers have seen in theUK especially is that people who go on
these drugs also report a decline oran end in other compulsive behaviors
(07:40):
like, like skin picking, for instance.
And what it's doing is it'stouching on the craving.
And if, and it's a big, if Friederike,it's a big if, and you've probably read
the literature too, but if this can beapplied to things like skin picking,
if that's if that's going to be drivenaway, it's possible that the GLP-1
(08:00):
agonists point to the end of addiction.
The problem that we face when we'redealing with addiction is twofold.
We think, oh well, theychase the pleasure.
They chase the pleasure.
Well, I've already mentioned whenwe've talked before, people who are
addicted chase the pleasure and thepleasure diminishes and diminishes.
So clearly the thing that'sattracting them is not the pleasure
(08:22):
because they're not getting it.
That would make them stop.
If they no longer got pleasure,they'd stop, but they keep doing it.
And the reason they keep doing it iswhile the homeostasis is warped on the
happiness part of it, the enjoyment ofit, the craving doesn't get touched.
The craving stays and stays.
(08:42):
And so addiction is this monsterdriven, not by the pleasure of
getting high, it's driven by theawful attraction of the craving.
And the GLP-1s get to that, that's why.
And it's a big if, because there's so muchgoing on here that we don't understand.
Maybe it points to a way tomore effectively, let's say
(09:04):
that to be realistic, moreeffectively deal with addiction.
That's a wonderful hope.
We've seen this dealing with with micewhere we where we get rid of bacteria
in the gut biome and, and the gut biomeand the brain are very much connected.
And we're seeing them actuallylose their resistance to exercise.
And this, again, a veryspecific thing is this exercise.
(09:26):
So if there is a common keybehind them all perhaps we have
a new tool against addiction.
And that would be one of themost important discoveries
in the history of medicine.
Friederike Fabritius (09:37):
Right.
So, I think it's just interestingbecause in your book you explain how
Ozempic and these other similar drugsare more than just weight loss drugs.
I think people are not aware that theyhit the dopamine system and that they can
actually affect you in other ways as well.
You mentioned the gut biome.
(09:57):
So I wanna hear from you about themicrobiome because I read in your
book there that your gut healthinfluences your dopamine system.
So what would you recommend?
I think this is something that'sreally attainable for people.
If you want to optimize your dopaminesystem, is there something you can
do with your diet specific foodsyou can eat, something like that?
Mike Long (10:18):
There are a couple of things that, that you can do.
And let's think of it this way.
Like for instance, in mycase, I'm exercising more now.
I really never was an exercise guy.
Now I'm doing it.
What am I gonna do with that?
I don't know.
I. I don't know.
I hope it's gonna make me feel better.
I hope it's gonna make me a littlemore energetic, but I don't know.
And that's okay, because it'sgonna make me more flexible.
(10:39):
It's gonna make me more powerful.
We get to the gut biome.
What can we do about that?
If we can enhance the gut biome,then perhaps the currents of
mind will be affected as well.
We don't understand a lotabout the relationship between
the gut biome and the brain.
We only know that it exists.
And and I'm certainly no experton it, but I can tell you that
there's a lot more to learn.
So what can we do?
(11:01):
Let's understand that thereare two ways to think about it.
There are the prebioticsand the probiotics.
And the probiotics, theprobiotics actually add bacteria.
They add bacteria to that gut biome.
The prebiotics feed that bacteria.
So if you're interested in the effectsof the gut biome on your life, and
(11:21):
know we talk about the mice, forinstance, that I mentioned a moment ago.
What you can do is simply buy thoseproducts that boost probiotics and
prebiotics and it's as simple as that.
That is something that you can do.
It's it's a bit of buying a lotteryticket, frankly where a whole
lot more tickets win than lose.
What exactly is going to happen to you?
We can't say, but we can saythat a healthier anything in your
(11:45):
body-brain connection is going to,in general, improve the experience
you have between body and brain.
So probiotics and prebiotics definitelyrecommended, but we can't know
exactly what the benefit will be.
You'll have to see for yourself, you haveto be a, an astronaut in your own body.
Friederike Fabritius (12:02):
So what we're saying is eat your kimchi, eat
your sauerkraut, eat your yogurt.
Mike Long (12:07):
Eat your chia seeds.
Yes.
Friederike Fabritius (12:09):
Yeah.
And your kombucha and stuff like this.
I make my homemade kombuchaand things like that.
And I do think it has atleast made me sick less often.
And things like that.
So even if you don't get thedopamine effect, I think it's just
very good for your general health.
My entire family is drinking it, soI've gotten really into brewing these
little crazy cultures in my home.
(12:33):
I would like to hear, yeah.
In the book, you hadone advice that I found.
Very relevant for people among a millionother things, but I'm just saying.
Everybody's talking about dopaminedetox and the dopamine fast and
going offline for, let's saya week or a month or a year.
(12:55):
So there are people who write books aboutgoing offline for a couple of months
and, and throwing their cell phone away.
And we all understand why, becauseit's really horrible to be so glued
to screens and to be always on.
We know it takes a toll on us.
So what is your take on the dopaminefasting, because you had a different
approach and I found it very interesting.
Mike Long (13:17):
Again I'm, i'm someone who thinks a lot about what words mean.
And so let's say, let's havethe good news for a change.
The good news is that dopamine fasting isa real thing if we call it something else.
The problem with the dopamine, and,and and I'm gonna tell you some things
that you can do the problem with thephrase fasting is you can't do that.
(13:39):
You and I are having constant dopamine.
You, You and I this instant,and with the listeners as well
are having dopamine experiences.
You can't turn it off anymore thanyou can turn off your breathing.
You wouldn't want to turn off dopamine.
You'd sit there die.
You can't do it.
So what we're talking about whenwe're talking about a dopamine fast
is we're talking about getting awayfrom the extremes long enough to
(14:02):
reset what we'll call homeostasis, thenormal natural set point of the body.
It's always fighting to get back there.
And once you warp it.
Once you warp it, you got a problem.
That's why people who aredrug addicts have to fight it
for the rest of their lives.
They've warped the homeostasis.
So instead of calling it dopamine fasting,let's call it dopamine revitalization,
(14:26):
let's say that what we're trying to dois get the set point back a little bit.
Now how can we do that?
Does it work?
Yes, it works, but it's not working.
If you treat it as afast, it's going to fail.
Think about this.
If you said, I'm going to start goingto the gym, and you go the first day
and you lift for an hour and you run onthe treadmill, and then you go home and
take a shower and the next morning youwake up and it's oh, I feel like awful.
(14:48):
Alright, I'm done.
And that's over.
If you try to approach adopamine fast that way, the same
thing is gonna happen to you.
You have to approach this thoughtfully.
The body's a complex thing.
So what you'll want to do is dosmall things consistently over time.
Small things consistently over time.
So let me give you four, fourthings you can do right off.
(15:10):
I love giving these four things.
It's a thing you can takeaway and use right now.
First start small.
If you say, I use socialmedia too much, do this.
Say, you know what, from 8:00AM to 5:00 PM, no social media.
Don't say, I will now chime off.
No more social media.
No, you can't do that.
Don't even try.
Don't even try.
(15:31):
But eight to five, no social media.
You come home at night, use itall you want, knock yourself out.
But if you say, during theday, I'm not gonna do it.
You've achieved somethingand you've begun to cut back.
The second thing is, in that samespirit, don't cut back, cut out.
Now you see, I didn't say just useit a little less or never use it
more than five minutes in a row.
(15:53):
I said, let's pick a periodof time and cut it out.
Get rid of it.
And this is going to give youmore experience, more valuable
experience in learning to feel thatunpleasant feeling and get over it.
And that's the, and get over it.
By that I mean grow accustomed toknowing it's not going to hurt you
and that you can live without it.
(16:13):
So that brings me to the third thing.
Remember that big positivechanges will almost always
begin with unpleasant feelings.
But they're just feelings.
They're only feelings.
And guess what?
If you fail, if you bring you to thefourth thing, start again tomorrow.
Nobody's watching you.
It's okay to fail a little bit.
(16:35):
A lot.
You can always start again.
Start small.
Cut it out.
Accept the unpleasant feelingsand accept the failure.
The idea of no stimulationstanding up to this is like trying
to run a race in a hurricane.
You can't do it, but if you do it a littleat a time every day, you will succeed.
(16:55):
And that's dopamine fasting or whatwe'll call dopamine revitalization.
Friederike Fabritius (16:59):
I think that's powerful because a lot of the people who
report back from doing these like intensedopamine fasts where you go and delete
all your social media and go offline fortwo months, they do that for two months.
They love it.
They come back the nextday, back with everything.
So I think by doing it in these littlesteps, you make it more sustainable.
(17:20):
You actually integrate it into yourlifestyle and you're carving out
these windows without the stimulation,which is much more sustainable.
And then you give yourself also theforgiveness of failing sometimes.
So don't have to live to theseinsane standards because let's
face it, the way these devicesare designed, they're addictive.
And as an individual to withstandit takes a lot of willpower.
(17:43):
And you may need thatwillpower for something else.
So it's good to, to doseit the way you recommend.
I think it's just very tangible, doableadvice that everyone can implement today.
You can start today.
So it's not this like we have tobook a retreat and go there for
two months and do this and this.
You can start today and justcarve out a little window without
(18:05):
doom scrolling and all of that.
Mike Long (18:08):
You know, it's interesting that you say people who,
everything you say, I endorse twice.
That's exactly right.
Not only, but also when peoplesay I'm going to go to this
I'm gonna go to a retreat.
All you're doing is just goosingthat dopamine activity because you're
saying, oh boy, in a few days I'mgonna start and dopamine indulges
(18:28):
that anticipation, the pleasure ofdopamine is "look what might happen."
It might be the thing I'vewaited for my whole life.
This upcoming dopamine fastis gonna change everything.
You're just, you're workingin the opposite direction.
You're indulging dopamine.
Am I making you look forward to somethingthat has no guarantee behind it?
Just start today.
Just start now.
If you screw it up, who cares?
(18:50):
You can start again.
It's okay.
It's your life.
Take control of the damn thing.
Friederike Fabritius (18:56):
Yeah.
I love this.
I have nothing to add.
Thank you so much for today.
We covered a lot.
We talked about the fact that youcan't buy a magic pill, but you can,
for example, work on your gut health.
We covered Ozempic and we even talkedabout a new way of doing dopamine
fasting by dopamine revitalization.
Mike Long (19:16):
Revitalization.
It's a good way to think of it.
Good way.
Friederike Fabritius (19:20):
Yeah.
So thank you so much for coming on again.
Next week we're gonna talkabout something that I think is
relevant to everybody's life.
We're gonna change directions abit and talk about politics and
dopamine and how people on the leftand to the right think differently.
I think that will be very interesting.
So tune in again next week and thank youso much for being here with us today.
Mike Long (19:44):
Thank you.
Hello everyone.
I'm here with Mike Long,bestselling author of The Molecule
of More, and his new book isout, Taming the Molecule of More.
We met last week and we introduceddopamine and heard about Mike's life,
and today I want to dig deeper intoall the different little things we can
do to really tame our dopamine system.
(00:26):
So hello, Mike.
Welcome back.
Mike Long (00:29):
Friederike, thank you for having me.
It's always pleasure to be here.
Friederike Fabritius (00:33):
Great.
So let me get started because everysingle time I talk about dopamine
anywhere, people always ask me,is there supplement I can take?
Is there a pill?
Is there something maybe Ican get an IV or something?
They always ask me about these quickhacks and I know you've done all the
research, so I wanna hear from you.
Is there any magic pill for dopamine?
Mike Long (00:55):
Oh, I wish there were, I wish there were.
I would take it, I would sell it.
I would be out here on the corner with it.
It's, it let me say a couple things.
I'm I, I have a direct answer for that.
And the answer is (01:07):
no.
There is not anything you cando to increase your dopamine
levels just sitting at your desk.
Now, are there medicationsthat a physician can prescribe
and I'm not a physician.
I'm a science person bynature and by training.
But are there thingsthat a doctor could do?
Absolutely.
But even those do not increase theamount of dopamine in your system.
(01:30):
What they do is they make thedopamine you have in your system,
hang around and work a little harder.
It's like hiring somebody and getting themto mow your lawn twice in a day instead
of just once or something like that.
You're getting a littlemore work out of them.
I have some specific things you couldtry that, that will, that you can
know about what will and won't work.
(01:51):
But I want people to understandwhen we talk about dopamine
levels, we're really talking aboutit in the wrong way entirely.
Not just wrong, but literally incorrect.
A lot of the things that we do,we go to the doctors say, oh,
what's your A1C or something?
And they do a blood test and there you go.
Dopamine doesn't primarilylive in your bloodstream.
Is there some in your blood?
Yes.
(02:11):
Does that dopamine have anythingto do with what we are talking
about in terms of the way themind functions, the way you feel?
No.
No, it doesn't.
In fact you can't getdopamine into the brain.
You can't, there's a barrier around yourbrain called the blood-brain barrier, and
it blocks dopamine and other molecules.
They're too big to get in there.
If it's not already in your brain orcoming up through your your spine and
(02:34):
the track there, it doesn't go in there.
When we talk about dopamine levels.
What we're really talking about isthe amount of activity in any given
dopamine cell, a good dopamine circuit.
We have a dopamine molecule that,again, we're having to round it
off, but it walks down the dendrite.
It makes these littleconnections and moves down.
(02:56):
And so, when it moves down this cell it islike a key looking for a lock and it hits
a lock on the other side of the synapse.
And it hits there, and thenit comes out, washes away.
And so we're raising dopamine levelsas we're taking these little keys
and we're making them, we're blockingthe exits and making it stay.
Look, I'm gettingfurther and further away.
We have these little molecules ofdopamine and they hit the receptor and
(03:18):
then they fall out of the receptor.
Instead of getting washedaway, we can take different
compounds and make them stay.
We can inhibit them.
From being a part ofthe re-uptake process.
You're familiar with this.
If you've had a depression medicine,those are called SSRI, serotonin
selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors.
(03:38):
There are dopamine re-uptakeinhibitors as well.
So all that to say, when we talkabout dopamine levels, we're talking
about the amount of activity inparticular circuits in the brain.
So you can't take a pill thatwill increase that that you
can buy over the counter.
So that's the background.
Now, if you'd I can talk a littleabout the the things that are possible
Friederike Fabritius (04:01):
For sure.
And I also want to maybe hear a littlebit about Ozempic because I think it's
very popular at the moment and you talkabout it in the book and it seems to
have a connection to the dopamine system.
So I wonder whether people are gonnastart to use it to, not just for weight
loss, but also to hit the dopamine system.
Mike Long (04:21):
Let, yeah, let's just jump right to that and we can
come back to this business aboutmedicine about other medicines.
But I do wanna tell, warn people offof something is that medications that
you get from your doctor can raisea sub-performing brain to normal.
Thank God for that though, if you'resuffering, by the way, if you're
suffering this if you're sufferingfrom a problem that's interfering
(04:44):
with your life, don't listen to me.
Go to a doctor and get some help.
I've suffered.
I've seen a doctor.
I got better.
You can get better.
There's no reason to suffer friends.
If you're listening,go see a psychiatrist.
Go see your MD. Get a referral.
There are ways to get help.
You don't have to suffer this alone.
(05:04):
But if you have like peoplesay I take Adderall during
finals week and I do better.
Yeah, you do better.
You know why?
It's a placebo effect.
Adderall will raise asub-performing brain, but it will
not raise a normal brain to beoverclocked or more performing.
Better performing.
If you do better with Adderall duringthat period, it's because you've
changed your focus in other ways.
But it's definitely not the Adderall.
(05:26):
And you can read my book andwe'll talk about the studies.
Let's talk about Ozempic.
I've had an experience with Ozempic.
I've lost about 15, 17% of my body weight.
I still have more to go.
I know I look like an Adonis, butyes, there's still more, more left.
The thing that, that that wetalk about with dopamine and
Ozempic, or any of the GLP-1.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Mm-hmm.
Mike Long (05:47):
We're talking about a double hit, and I'll just
tell you my experience with it.
I expected to have my appetite diminished,and that's a very powerful thing.
But those of us you mentioned inan earlier broadcast, we talked
about my, my love of pizza.
I love pizza so much.
And if you said rightnow let's go get a pizza.
(06:09):
It didn't matter if I just had breakfast.
I enjoy pizza.
I want pizza.
Let's go get a piece of pizza.
Let's do that.
And so Ozempic takes awaythe pleasure of the eating.
But it also does something surprising.
It takes away the desireto eat much at all.
(06:30):
It's like if someone saidyou'll never be in love again.
You'll never be in love again.
And you say well, okay,I, I could live with that.
If I get some trade for that I,I can never be in love again.
But if somebody said, you'll never evenfeel love anymore, you might think twice.
With food, with Ozempic, especiallyin the first few weeks of this thing,
it's not just I can take or leave ameal, it's that food is suddenly like
(06:54):
a stack of paper or a brick on a wall.
It's just.
It's just nothing to you.
It doesn't happen for everyone,but it happened to me.
And I would as I would be as happyeating as not ever eating again
during those periods of time.
And that's the strength of it.
Now we talk about how that, we cantalk about a lot of different things
(07:17):
in here, but here's where it comesto dopamine, which is what your
listeners is very interested in.
If what we've seen, I say we, theresearchers, I'm not a researcher,
what the researchers have seen in theUK especially is that people who go on
these drugs also report a decline oran end in other compulsive behaviors
(07:40):
like, like skin picking, for instance.
And what it's doing is it'stouching on the craving.
And if, and it's a big, if Friederike,it's a big if, and you've probably read
the literature too, but if this can beapplied to things like skin picking,
if that's if that's going to be drivenaway, it's possible that the GLP-1
(08:00):
agonists point to the end of addiction.
The problem that we face when we'redealing with addiction is twofold.
We think, oh well, theychase the pleasure.
They chase the pleasure.
Well, I've already mentioned whenwe've talked before, people who are
addicted chase the pleasure and thepleasure diminishes and diminishes.
So clearly the thing that'sattracting them is not the pleasure
(08:22):
because they're not getting it.
That would make them stop.
If they no longer got pleasure,they'd stop, but they keep doing it.
And the reason they keep doing it iswhile the homeostasis is warped on the
happiness part of it, the enjoyment ofit, the craving doesn't get touched.
The craving stays and stays.
(08:42):
And so addiction is this monsterdriven, not by the pleasure of
getting high, it's driven by theawful attraction of the craving.
And the GLP-1s get to that, that's why.
And it's a big if, because there's so muchgoing on here that we don't understand.
Maybe it points to a way tomore effectively, let's say
(09:04):
that to be realistic, moreeffectively deal with addiction.
That's a wonderful hope.
We've seen this dealing with with micewhere we where we get rid of bacteria
in the gut biome and, and the gut biomeand the brain are very much connected.
And we're seeing them actuallylose their resistance to exercise.
And this, again, a veryspecific thing is this exercise.
(09:26):
So if there is a common keybehind them all perhaps we have
a new tool against addiction.
And that would be one of themost important discoveries
in the history of medicine.
Friederike Fabritius (09:37):
Right.
So, I think it's just interestingbecause in your book you explain how
Ozempic and these other similar drugsare more than just weight loss drugs.
I think people are not aware that theyhit the dopamine system and that they can
actually affect you in other ways as well.
You mentioned the gut biome.
(09:57):
So I wanna hear from you about themicrobiome because I read in your
book there that your gut healthinfluences your dopamine system.
So what would you recommend?
I think this is something that'sreally attainable for people.
If you want to optimize your dopaminesystem, is there something you can
do with your diet specific foodsyou can eat, something like that?
Mike Long (10:18):
There are a couple of things that, that you can do.
And let's think of it this way.
Like for instance, in mycase, I'm exercising more now.
I really never was an exercise guy.
Now I'm doing it.
What am I gonna do with that?
I don't know.
I. I don't know.
I hope it's gonna make me feel better.
I hope it's gonna make me a littlemore energetic, but I don't know.
And that's okay, because it'sgonna make me more flexible.
(10:39):
It's gonna make me more powerful.
We get to the gut biome.
What can we do about that?
If we can enhance the gut biome,then perhaps the currents of
mind will be affected as well.
We don't understand a lotabout the relationship between
the gut biome and the brain.
We only know that it exists.
And and I'm certainly no experton it, but I can tell you that
there's a lot more to learn.
So what can we do?
(11:01):
Let's understand that thereare two ways to think about it.
There are the prebioticsand the probiotics.
And the probiotics, theprobiotics actually add bacteria.
They add bacteria to that gut biome.
The prebiotics feed that bacteria.
So if you're interested in the effectsof the gut biome on your life, and
(11:21):
know we talk about the mice, forinstance, that I mentioned a moment ago.
What you can do is simply buy thoseproducts that boost probiotics and
prebiotics and it's as simple as that.
That is something that you can do.
It's it's a bit of buying a lotteryticket, frankly where a whole
lot more tickets win than lose.
What exactly is going to happen to you?
We can't say, but we can saythat a healthier anything in your
(11:45):
body-brain connection is going to,in general, improve the experience
you have between body and brain.
So probiotics and prebiotics definitelyrecommended, but we can't know
exactly what the benefit will be.
You'll have to see for yourself, you haveto be a, an astronaut in your own body.
Friederike Fabritius (12:02):
So what we're saying is eat your kimchi, eat
your sauerkraut, eat your yogurt.
Mike Long (12:07):
Eat your chia seeds.
Yes.
Friederike Fabritius (12:09):
Yeah.
And your kombucha and stuff like this.
I make my homemade kombuchaand things like that.
And I do think it has atleast made me sick less often.
And things like that.
So even if you don't get thedopamine effect, I think it's just
very good for your general health.
My entire family is drinking it, soI've gotten really into brewing these
little crazy cultures in my home.
(12:33):
I would like to hear, yeah.
In the book, you hadone advice that I found.
Very relevant for people among a millionother things, but I'm just saying.
Everybody's talking about dopaminedetox and the dopamine fast and
going offline for, let's saya week or a month or a year.
(12:55):
So there are people who write books aboutgoing offline for a couple of months
and, and throwing their cell phone away.
And we all understand why, becauseit's really horrible to be so glued
to screens and to be always on.
We know it takes a toll on us.
So what is your take on the dopaminefasting, because you had a different
approach and I found it very interesting.
Mike Long (13:17):
Again I'm, i'm someone who thinks a lot about what words mean.
And so let's say, let's havethe good news for a change.
The good news is that dopamine fasting isa real thing if we call it something else.
The problem with the dopamine, and,and and I'm gonna tell you some things
that you can do the problem with thephrase fasting is you can't do that.
(13:39):
You and I are having constant dopamine.
You, You and I this instant,and with the listeners as well
are having dopamine experiences.
You can't turn it off anymore thanyou can turn off your breathing.
You wouldn't want to turn off dopamine.
You'd sit there die.
You can't do it.
So what we're talking about whenwe're talking about a dopamine fast
is we're talking about getting awayfrom the extremes long enough to
(14:02):
reset what we'll call homeostasis, thenormal natural set point of the body.
It's always fighting to get back there.
And once you warp it.
Once you warp it, you got a problem.
That's why people who aredrug addicts have to fight it
for the rest of their lives.
They've warped the homeostasis.
So instead of calling it dopamine fasting,let's call it dopamine revitalization,
(14:26):
let's say that what we're trying to dois get the set point back a little bit.
Now how can we do that?
Does it work?
Yes, it works, but it's not working.
If you treat it as afast, it's going to fail.
Think about this.
If you said, I'm going to start goingto the gym, and you go the first day
and you lift for an hour and you run onthe treadmill, and then you go home and
take a shower and the next morning youwake up and it's oh, I feel like awful.
(14:48):
Alright, I'm done.
And that's over.
If you try to approach adopamine fast that way, the same
thing is gonna happen to you.
You have to approach this thoughtfully.
The body's a complex thing.
So what you'll want to do is dosmall things consistently over time.
Small things consistently over time.
So let me give you four, fourthings you can do right off.
(15:10):
I love giving these four things.
It's a thing you can takeaway and use right now.
First start small.
If you say, I use socialmedia too much, do this.
Say, you know what, from 8:00AM to 5:00 PM, no social media.
Don't say, I will now chime off.
No more social media.
No, you can't do that.
Don't even try.
Don't even try.
(15:31):
But eight to five, no social media.
You come home at night, use itall you want, knock yourself out.
But if you say, during theday, I'm not gonna do it.
You've achieved somethingand you've begun to cut back.
The second thing is, in that samespirit, don't cut back, cut out.
Now you see, I didn't say just useit a little less or never use it
more than five minutes in a row.
(15:53):
I said, let's pick a periodof time and cut it out.
Get rid of it.
And this is going to give youmore experience, more valuable
experience in learning to feel thatunpleasant feeling and get over it.
And that's the, and get over it.
By that I mean grow accustomed toknowing it's not going to hurt you
and that you can live without it.
(16:13):
So that brings me to the third thing.
Remember that big positivechanges will almost always
begin with unpleasant feelings.
But they're just feelings.
They're only feelings.
And guess what?
If you fail, if you bring you to thefourth thing, start again tomorrow.
Nobody's watching you.
It's okay to fail a little bit.
(16:35):
A lot.
You can always start again.
Start small.
Cut it out.
Accept the unpleasant feelingsand accept the failure.
The idea of no stimulationstanding up to this is like trying
to run a race in a hurricane.
You can't do it, but if you do it a littleat a time every day, you will succeed.
(16:55):
And that's dopamine fasting or whatwe'll call dopamine revitalization.
Friederike Fabritius (16:59):
I think that's powerful because a lot of the people who
report back from doing these like intensedopamine fasts where you go and delete
all your social media and go offline fortwo months, they do that for two months.
They love it.
They come back the nextday, back with everything.
So I think by doing it in these littlesteps, you make it more sustainable.
(17:20):
You actually integrate it into yourlifestyle and you're carving out
these windows without the stimulation,which is much more sustainable.
And then you give yourself also theforgiveness of failing sometimes.
So don't have to live to theseinsane standards because let's
face it, the way these devicesare designed, they're addictive.
And as an individual to withstandit takes a lot of willpower.
(17:43):
And you may need thatwillpower for something else.
So it's good to, to doseit the way you recommend.
I think it's just very tangible, doableadvice that everyone can implement today.
You can start today.
So it's not this like we have tobook a retreat and go there for
two months and do this and this.
You can start today and justcarve out a little window without
(18:05):
doom scrolling and all of that.
Mike Long (18:08):
You know, it's interesting that you say people who,
everything you say, I endorse twice.
That's exactly right.
Not only, but also when peoplesay I'm going to go to this
I'm gonna go to a retreat.
All you're doing is just goosingthat dopamine activity because you're
saying, oh boy, in a few days I'mgonna start and dopamine indulges
(18:28):
that anticipation, the pleasure ofdopamine is "look what might happen."
It might be the thing I'vewaited for my whole life.
This upcoming dopamine fastis gonna change everything.
You're just, you're workingin the opposite direction.
You're indulging dopamine.
Am I making you look forward to somethingthat has no guarantee behind it?
Just start today.
Just start now.
If you screw it up, who cares?
(18:50):
You can start again.
It's okay.
It's your life.
Take control of the damn thing.
Friederike Fabritius (18:56):
Yeah.
I love this.
I have nothing to add.
Thank you so much for today.
We covered a lot.
We talked about the fact that youcan't buy a magic pill, but you can,
for example, work on your gut health.
We covered Ozempic and we even talkedabout a new way of doing dopamine
fasting by dopamine revitalization.
Mike Long (19:16):
Revitalization.
It's a good way to think of it.
Good way.
Friederike Fabritius (19:20):
Yeah.
So thank you so much for coming on again.
Next week we're gonna talkabout something that I think is
relevant to everybody's life.
We're gonna change directions abit and talk about politics and
dopamine and how people on the leftand to the right think differently.
I think that will be very interesting.
So tune in again next week and thank youso much for being here with us today.
Mike Long (19:44):
Thank you.
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