January 22, 2025 • 49 mins
Dave and Daniel share their biggest wishes for the future of podcasting in 2025, highlighting the need for cross-app comments as a critical feature to enhance audience engagement. They discuss the potential benefits this could bring to both listeners and podcasters, fostering a sense of community and interaction that is often lacking in the current landscape.
They also examine the complexities of implementing such features, considering various technical approaches and the importance of making it easy for users to participate.
The conversation also touches on the evolving landscape of podcast monetization, particularly the desire for streamlined payment options that empower creators while minimizing fees.
Reflecting on the past year and the frustrations felt within the podcasting community, Dave and Daniel emphasize the importance of collaboration and unified development efforts to realize these ambitious goals.
Takeaways:
- Daniel J. Lewis emphasizes the need for cross-app comments in podcasting, fostering community engagement across platforms.
- Both hosts desire unified features in podcasting to streamline the user experience and encourage adoption.
- Dave Jackson highlights the significance of listener recognition, valuing direct feedback through financial contributions.
- The discussion explores the importance of making podcast payments easier for both creators and listeners.
- Emerging technologies in podcasting could shape how content creators interact and monetize their shows effectively.
- The hosts stress the potential of community-building through shared comments and listener contributions for podcasters.
Links referenced in this episode:
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Find Dave at schoolofpodcasting.com
Find Daniel at theaudacitytopodcast.com
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Daniel
Podgagement - Boost Your Audience Engagement
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Dave
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Our biggest wishes for 2025.
This is the future ofPodcasting, where.
We ponder what awaits thepodcasters of today.
From the school of podcasting,here's Dave Jackson.
And from the Audacity toPodcast, here's Daniel J.
Lewis.
Daniel, future of podcasting.
Episode number 55, Happy New Year.
(00:22):
It's our biggest wishes for 2025.
It's a new year.
We've got new hopes, newdreams, new things to.
And so I know, I guess it waslast year we talked about our.
Our biggest hopes for 2024.
It wasn't a prediction show,it was a hope show.
And so this year we thought wewould pick just.
(00:43):
If you could only have one,what would be your biggest hope,
your biggest wish?
If you had a whole team ofdevelopers and they could only work
on one thing, what would youhave them work on?
Yeah, because there's so muchbeing developed right now, and I
understand there is somefrustration among the community right
now because there are lots oflittle things being discussed, lots
(01:06):
of little features, lots ofother things being talked about and
experimented with and problemstrying to be solved and certain things
being played with and certainnew ideas being developed.
There's a lot of stuff going on.
So this isn't to downplay anyof that, that there is momentum,
there is stuff moving.
But what if.
What if we could all unifyaround one or two features?
(01:29):
And even for this episode,what is our one feature?
Like, my one feature and yourone feature, Dave, and you listening
right now, what would be theone thing you would want too?
Now, your ability to respondto that kind of depends on one of
these two things that we'regoing to share as well.
(01:50):
Yeah, that is true.
And I get it.
We're a bunch of nerds and arecreative, so it's really easy for
us to just scamper off.
And there are times when, likeyou said, I know there are times
I'm a little frustratedbecause it's like we have a hundred
peanuts and we're all pushingthem, like a centimeter each.
(02:10):
There's part of me, and then Ifeel like I'm selfish.
I'm like, but I want my thing.
I feel like I'm in.
What was the bad girl in Willy Wonka?
You know, I want it now, Daddy.
You know, but if we could justpick one peanut and move it a mile,
you know, I think in a way wemight feel like we're accomplishing
more because we are.
Like you said, we are moving forward.
We're moving 100 peanuts at atime instead of four peanuts a mile.
(02:36):
And we have two things we'regoing to talk about.
Daniel, I will let you havethe floor First.
My big thing that I would loveto see happen in 2025 is finally
cross app comments.
The reason for this is I'm nowlooking aggressively at every proposal
and discussion point and ideathat comes in with podcasting 2.0.
(02:59):
And there are so many good ideas.
I love it.
I love the creativity.
With every new idea that comesin, I think, how does this benefit
the audience?
Because that's what we really,really need to focus on.
For the audience to want touse a different podcast app, there
has to be a benefit to them,not a benefit to the podcaster.
(03:20):
Not some little data thingthat's just a super niche sort of
need.
But there needs to be a bigbenefit to the podcaster that they
think, yes, I am so willing toswitch podcast apps because I want
this other thing and I wouldlove to see that be cross app comments.
And I think it is somethingthat benefits everyone, really.
(03:40):
It is of benefit to theaudiences and it's also of benefit
to the podcasters because itis that engagement.
So, again, cross app commentsis the idea.
I'll give some implementationexamples in a minute.
But it's the idea that you canuse whatever podcasting 2.0 compatible
podcast app to consume a podcast.
(04:02):
And there would be a commentfield where you could post a comment
in there and read commentsfrom others who are using the same
or different podcast apps.
So that's where it's cross app comments.
It's comments across thedifferent apps out there.
It doesn't matter which appyou're using.
You can still participate inthe conversation with the podcasters
(04:25):
as well as other people in thecommunity listening to the same episodes.
Because that is where so much happens.
Like, Dave, you see this everySaturday morning.
What happens in the chat roomwhile you're doing Ask the podcast
coach.
Yeah, a giant chat that manytimes is having their own show.
Like, I'm talking about topicA and I look over in the chat room
(04:46):
has gone into topic B and C.
But the beauty of it is, andthat's one of the reasons why I still
do that show, is I'm gettinginstant feedback.
And in the case of across acomment, I mean, those are live.
And yeah, I can go back andhave YouTube play them, but the fact
that I could not have to go toYouTube to see them and the fact
that they're just kind ofthere and you can just go in and
(05:08):
see them, I don't have to likescroll through, halfway through.
I could probably just have itthere to do that.
That would be one of my questions.
Where are these comments goingto live?
Because they got to be stored somewhere.
Yeah.
And there are multipletechnical approaches that could be
considered to that.
Like, we've talked aboutthings like Activity Streams and
Activity Pub.
There have been otherproposals for different things.
(05:29):
Here's what I think it comesdown to.
Technologically, we needsomething in the RSS feed.
And as I pointed out a whileback, and also has been brought up
again recently, there isalready a comments tag for RSS feeds.
And what the comments tag issupposed to do is it points to the
location of comments andthat's it.
(05:51):
And there is no specificationfor how those comments are then formatted.
We could say in podcasting2.0, maybe it's simply podcast colon,
comments is the tag.
Maybe we hijack the comments tag.
But we could say that commentsneed to follow a particular structure,
a data structure for it to bereadable for the app.
(06:11):
Whether that's XML, GraphQL,JSON, anything like that, it doesn't
really matter.
But it's something that theapps can use in something that's
standard.
But we could go with thatapproach where it simply links to
where those comments exist.
Then there is the issue of howdo those comments get there?
(06:32):
And the ability for thepodcaster to have moderation control
over those comments, which isa very important thing without blocking
someone.
Because there could be a caselike a family friendly podcast and
someone says, that's thebleeping funniest thing I've ever
heard.
And they're just being genuinethat they thought was hilarious.
But you as the podcasterthink, ah, I don't want bleeping
(06:53):
there in my comments becausethis is a family friendly podcast.
I don't want that profanity inthe comments section.
So you might want to deleteit, but you don't want to block that
person from commenting becauseit's not like they're being abusive
or they're attacking you orthey're trolling, anything like that.
You just want to remove that comment.
And I think there might alsobe a good need for the audiences
(07:15):
to be able to edit theircomments to fix typos, correct things,
update things as needed and such.
The editing, that's notnecessarily as important, I think,
but it would still be reallygood to be there.
But technologically all youneed to do is whatever that comments
tag is linking to could beessentially an index of, here's where
(07:38):
all of the comments exist.
So just like an RSS feed isbasically an index of audio or video
files along with some metadatawith each of those things, the comments
feed for each episode and forthe show overall could simply be
that index of.
Here's where all of thesecomments are.
(07:58):
Now an interesting advantageto that is that it could then be
easily multi platform whereyou could tie it in with bluesky
or X or Mastodon or ActivityPub or your website or anything like
that.
All it needs to be is that thedata from whatever that platform
(08:19):
is is accessible, freelyaccessible through some kind of API
method so that that commentcould be displayed in.
So imagine this, you couldhave some people commenting through
Activity Pub, like en masse Dawn.
You could have some peoplecommenting on your website, you could
have some people commenting onsome podcast apps.
Proprietary commenting systemlike GoodPods has a proprietary commenting
(08:43):
system.
It could be anything like that.
Then all that needs to be doneis that data needs to be exposed
in a standard way and theneach comment has an entry in that
index file.
And then the podcast appsthough would have to understand how
to read each of those commentsfrom those separate platforms.
(09:05):
You know, GoodPods mightformat their JSON data differently
from how Activity Pub formats it.
That could be allowable aslong as it's obvious which format
it is.
And then the podcast apps canjust support new things.
So there is that kind ofmethod that does push more onto the
(09:25):
app developers to build insupport for, okay, now we need to
support this new protocolthat's supported in this.
But still the concept is thatI really think the technology itself
that we use should not matterso much as the accessibility, which
is what's most important forthe audience.
(09:46):
The audience should not haveto create some account somewhere
else outside of their podcast app.
I think everything they doshould be right there inside their
podcast app.
I even think they shouldn'thave to have an account they log
into with the podcast app.
They could comment anonymouslyor they wouldn't have to use a third
(10:07):
party account like a Facebookor an X in order to log in to identify
themselves.
They could just inside of theapp identify themselves as they choose
to, you know, fill in theblank fields of this is my name,
this is my email address inorder to identify me in the system
or anything like that.
Kind of like we've had withWordPress comments and other commenting
systems on websites for years.
(10:28):
We need to make it simple andeasy for the audience to leave a
comment, to read the commentsand to respond to each other.
Because the other thing, Dave,I go to Ask the podcast coach on
Saturday mornings for is the community?
Yeah, it's fun to watch youand Dave live and to chat a little
bit with you, but it also justfeels like, hey, I'm hanging out
(10:53):
with some other podcastingfriends because it's often the same
couple dozen people or so in there.
So it's like, hey, good to seeyou again.
You know, happy Saturday.
Haven't seen you since last Saturday.
Or how'd that thing go thatyou tried since last week?
Anything like that, where thecommunity is building around the
content, and that's when youget the super fans, because you have
(11:18):
made a tribe for them.
You have made a community forthem to communicate with each other.
That's why I want Cross Appcomments to be that number one thing
that we finally get working in 2025.
I know, and I will accept thatI may not like the method or the
technology or maybe the nameof the tag or anything like that,
(11:42):
but at this point, it's kindof like I just want to see it done,
because this is something thateveryone I've told that this could
be a possibility.
They've been really excitedabout it, Both podcast consumers
and podcasters.
We need to have this done.
It's taken so long.
I know Adam has bemoaned acouple times saying that basically
(12:03):
it seems like the community'sgiven up on it.
Whatever it takes.
If I need to be the one tospearhead this too, I take that on
if I can.
But we need something, and Ithink this both benefits the audience
and the podcasters, and it'swhat I would love to see happen in
2025.
(12:23):
If I could have nothing elsein podcasting 2.0 developed, or just
in the future of thedevelopment of podcasting as a whole
industry.
If nothing else, I want this thing.
Cross App comments.
Yeah.
And I'd love to see it rolledout in a way.
And this kind of goes back tothe Podcast Standards project instead
of like, oh, this app has it.
(12:43):
And then three weeks later,this app has it.
And I'd love if we couldsomehow coordinate it to where we
all launch together.
So all of a sudden it's like,hey, here are seven apps that if
you are using these apps,you're going to see these comments,
because I think that wouldcreate enough fear of missing out.
But like, wait a minute, I'musing Apple Podcasts.
(13:04):
What are these other.
How many?
Well, okay, maybe I'll go trythis now.
I'm with you.
I think you then create your tribe.
The only thing you said thatMade me scared is people posting
anonymously because I knowcomments on WordPress are many times
my.
I forget what I use Akismet, Ithink to find spam.
And there's always.
And it's marketers ruin everything.
(13:25):
So I could see them justcreating a bot to leave comments
on podcasts that all point tosome website.
And I think there's more to bedeveloped there that can help prevent
that or to give more power tothe podcaster.
Like the podcaster coulddecide, I do not want anonymous comments.
Some podcaster could decide, Iknow my podcast is sensitive.
(13:47):
I know that whether it'spolitical, moral, whatever.
And so I'm going to be okaywith people not identifying themselves
because I want this to be asafe space for them to be able to
comment anything like that.
Yeah.
So there are certainly lots ofthings to figure out, but it's the
core that I think is what'smost important and as I harp on frequently,
(14:11):
is thinking about what will wewant this to do later?
To make sure that we build afoundation now that we can build
on later?
Yeah, anything we build now,we have to kind of go, will this
work?
And I know technology changesall the time, but is this going to
be, to the best of ourknowledge, future proof that it's
not going to shoot ourselvesin the foot?
(14:33):
And speaking of technologychanging all the time, podcasting
technology changes all thetime too.
Dave, is there a podcast andmaybe even a membership site where
people could go to keep upwith leveraging the technology and
really focusing on making abetter podcast?
If only there was a school for that.
(14:53):
Do you know of a place?
I think there's a place calledschoolofpodcasting.com in fact, I
think they even have a coupon code.
If you use the coupon codelistnr, you can save on either a
monthly or yearly subscription.
And one of the members therewas talking about how they really
liked seeing where they werein the charts on the different charts
(15:14):
of Apple and such, because itgave them a sense of things are working
or things are not.
And if only there was someplace because doggone at Chartable
went out of business.
If there was only a placewhere somebody could not only get
voicemails and reviews andeverything else, but if they could
see the chart positions.
Daniel, do you know of anyplace that somebody could do that?
Well, you know, it's funny youask podgagement.com this sounds so
(15:38):
scripted, but I promise you,listener, this is not scripted.
But yeah.
Podgagement.com I launched thecharts feature about two months ago.
And actually I quietlylaunched a new feature too that I
haven't announced yet to my members.
But now you can embed ratingsand reviews on your site through
dynamic lists.
(15:58):
Like, you can say, I want allmy 4 star and 5 stars reviews to
appear on my site, or all thereviews that I tag with this particular
tag, or all the reviews fromApple Podcasts or from the United
States or whatever.
You can make the smart list orembed individual reviews.
That's now available too,over@podgagement.com Wayne, I.
(16:19):
Have a question on that.
So if I say automatically showall five star reviews and I get the
code and put it on my website,there I've got five star reviews.
Then 20 minutes later anotherfive star review comes in.
Does it automatically thenshow up on my website?
Yeah, there will be somecaching involved with it, but yeah,
it will automatically show up.
(16:39):
Now, if you wanted to dosomething like you always want only
5 reviews, you can also do that.
You can limit it to show onlythe latest five.
Interesting.
Yeah, I had fun building thatwhen that one was fun.
Now I want to throw this toyou, Dave, for you.
What would be that one thingyou would want in 2025 if you could
have nothing else but this one thing?
(17:02):
What would that be?
Yeah, the thing for me when Iwas talking about it was like, what's
podcasting 2.0?
And I'd explain that we'reexpanding its reach and it's going
to have more features andblah, blah, blah, and they would
kind of go, that sounds like agood idea.
And then the minute I said,oh, and people can stream Bitcoin
to you, so the longer theylisten, the more you get paid, that
(17:24):
always be like, wait a minute,how do you sign up for that?
That always caught people's attention.
And when we talk about beingfuture proof, we've talked about
Albie on this show and Iunderstand why they did what they
did.
I'm still not quite sure.
And this is where I've said itmany times, I don't know anything
about crypto, but I just wantthat back.
(17:46):
Because right now it's.
I don't want to say stalled.
That's.
That's a little negative, butit's not.
We've taken a step backwardsand it doesn't seem.
I know there are plenty ofpeople working on potential fixes.
I know there's now the splitbox that Steven is put forth and
a.
Lot of great potential there.
I really like the concept.
(18:08):
Yeah, I just remember when Iworked at Libsyn if there was ever
a time that there was aproblem with stats, that place like
everybody dropped what theywere doing and everybody like stats
were fixed.
There was never a statsproblem that went longer than five
minutes or something like that.
Everybody dropped everything.
(18:28):
And you never lost your stats.
It was usually how they weredisplayed because there was always
this machine collecting them.
But the minute there was aproblem with displaying them because
we knew that the longer thatwent on, the more emails support
was going to get.
And so when this went down,and this is where I feel selfish,
I'm kind of like, hey, can wedo kind of like an all hands on getting
this streaming thing back up?
(18:50):
Because for me, that was theone that gathered people's attention.
They're like, wait a minute,how hard is it to set that up?
And so if I'm completelyhonest, when I hear like the godcaster
sounds like a great projectand paying musicians is a great thing
because I'm an old musician,but there is a part of me that wants
to be Veruca Salt.
(19:10):
I believe if I remember it washer name, you know, I want streaming
payments now, daddy.
And that's where it's greatthat Dave and Adam, like, I heard
about the split box.
I was like, okay, good.
And that's my own fault.
I need to be more involved inPodcast Index social.
I'm sure they're talking aboutit over there more.
But if all you're waiting onis the podcasting 2.0 show, you have
(19:32):
no idea what's going on.
And so it just seems like Iremember every week and there was
some company that Dave wasworking with that they had some sort
of non disclosure that theycouldn't talk about it, but they
were working with it.
I forget the name of it.
And then nothing happened.
It was like, oh, so there's.
We're always kind of like, isthis going to be the episode where
we get back on track?
(19:53):
Where we get back on track.
So for me, it just seemed asmuch as we would always say, oh,
there's so much more thanstreaming satoshis and podcasting
2.0, and there's transcriptsand there's the people tag and the
pod roll was great.
And, and that was one of thegreat things that happened in 2024.
But the, for me, the one just,just from telling people about podcasting
(20:17):
2.0, the one that people wouldgo, wait a minute, hold on, how does
that work?
I just saw somebody justposted a poll in Facebook.
I think it was in.
It might have been in podcast Movement.
And they asked about money,and it was like, are you using your
podcast to make money for your business?
Are you a hobbyist butwouldn't mind making money or.
(20:38):
And I forget the third one,but the majority of people, and I've
always said this, I know thereare a lot of people.
I know Todd will say, thereare a lot of people just doing it
for fun.
And that's true.
I mean, we kind of do thisshow for fun, and I get to hang out
with Daniel J.
Lewis, so to win.
But it's also in the back ofmy mind, it would be great if this
also made money.
There's always that, yeah,it'd be cool.
(20:59):
And if we could make that easy.
Because I have found that whenI bring up stuff with money, a lot
of times the response is,well, if I could just get it to break
even.
If I could just, like, I'm notreally trying to make it my second
job, but, you know, And Ialways hear the voice of someone's
spouse in their ear going, youspent how much on podcasting?
(21:19):
If I could just get it tobreak even, I think I'd be okay.
You know, there's a funnypsychological thing there that for
years that I think I spokeincorrectly about.
And that was.
We often talk about, well, youknow, if you get into a hobby, like
model trains or baseball cardsor any of that, do you really ask
people, hey, are you makingmoney with that now?
(21:41):
Some people do, yes, for sure.
So that aside, though, mostpeople that get into those things,
like, I was into baseballcards and coin collecting as a kid,
and I just did it for the funof it and that kind of hobby, the
collecting kind of hobby, tojust put a label on it.
This might not necessarily bethe best label of it, but it is a
selfish hobby.
(22:02):
It is me collecting somethingfor myself or doing a hobby because
I enjoy it.
Maybe that is shared with acouple other people, too.
You know, maybe you like beingin this community of people who do
this same kind of hobby, butyou're all basically doing it for
yourselves, and you're talkingabout the things that you're doing
for yourselves, and you'recomparing and getting tips and all
of that.
(22:22):
Podcasting, though, andcontent creation in general, blogging,
videos, wherever.
It's a different kind ofthing, because it's not always for
you, because we are creating something.
I know some people don't likethat term creating, but we are giving
content, we are giving valueto other people.
(22:44):
It's not just about collectingstuff for us.
We are making stuff for otherpeople that we hope other people
will enjoy or benefit from insome way.
I think that is why we tend tothink of podcasting, and I say we,
as like the generalindependent podcaster, we tend to
think of podcasting as, howcan I make it break even?
(23:05):
How can I make some money with this?
Because it's not just a,quote, selfish, unquote hobby of.
We're just getting stuff for us.
We are giving value to others.
And I think that feeling is inus realizing we are giving value,
and maybe there should be avalue exchange.
How can we make a valueexchange happen?
(23:25):
Yeah, I actually today had acoaching client, and he's had 30
years in sales and just wantsto give back.
He's like, sales has been verygood to me, and I want to share some
of my knowledge.
And I said, well, how longhave you been thinking about doing
a podcast?
He said, probably five years,but he had imposter syndrome.
And I said, well, once again,when your need to give back or your
(23:48):
need to serve is greater thanyour fear of looking silly, that's
when you press record to go,and that's exactly where you are.
And so I think that is part of it.
People do this to give back,and then there comes a time when
they realize, hey, podcastingis kind of hard.
If I did get some money back,I just saw a movie about this female
(24:10):
Olympic boxer.
It's called the Fire Within.
Amazing story.
I won't spoil the movie, butshe got a gold medal and came home,
and, like, nothing changed.
She thought she was going tobe on a Wheaties box and endorsements
and not a lot of endorsementsin female boxing back in, like, 2009
or something like that.
And so they were with kind ofher manager slash agent, trying to
(24:31):
get money, and they weretalking about different things.
And he goes, well, is it the recognition?
Is it the money?
Like, what's the problem?
And she screams at him.
She's like, money is recognition.
And I think sometimes, even ifit was just a dime, I think people
just want to be recognized.
And so when they get thatlittle bit of a bitcoin or buy me
a coffee or whatever it is,it's like, hey, somebody likes this
(24:54):
enough to buy me a coffee.
And I know Adam hates that,but it's like, it's.
It's, again, it's recognition.
And that's where, again, Iwant this to be more than a.
A cup of coffee.
I want it to be.
Because we've had people that.
That stream pretty highstreams to this show that I was like,
oh, that adds up.
Thank you very much.
For anyone who's streaming,and then there are others, but it's.
(25:15):
It's.
Adam always says you canstream what you give.
You know, whatever you have to give.
If it's 2 cents a show or$2,000 a show, whatever you can do.
If you feel like giving back,that's the key.
It was a way for them to give back.
And I.
I hope it's.
It's easy.
I know now with the things,the way things are, again, I have
(25:35):
no idea what I'm doing, but Iknow I went and bought the.
The Albie Hub or whatever itwas, but now I have to go to Strike
to transfer money from my bankinto Strike.
And I think now I know for awhile, I think I had to wait 48 hours
before I could transfer itinto Albi.
I don't think that's the case anymore.
But I just.
Every time I do that, I getconfused because first I have to
(25:56):
go in and am I on the Bitcointab or the money tab?
Okay.
And then it says withdrawal,and then it says there's like, four
options.
It should be like, send orreceive or whatever.
And I'm always like, wait,which one is the one?
Okay, this one.
And so I've started justtransferring more money into Strike
so I don't have to do it.
I used to do it once a month,and now be like, let's do three months
(26:17):
worth, and then I'll throwthat into Albie and it's there to
stream, and I have to worryabout it.
But every time I do that,especially, like I said, I was doing
it once a month.
Well, every month, it'd belike, wait, how did I do this 30
days ago?
So I either need to makemyself a cheat sheet or just remember.
But if we could make that easier.
And that's where I.
I need to ask Sam, because,like I said, I used to go into true
(26:39):
fans, and I could just fill upmy Albi wallet through Trufans, and
then Sam would take his cut.
And that's fine.
He made it easy.
He gave me something valuable,let him take his piece, and then
it would just fill my Albie wallet.
And then I think I had ca.
Well, I really cast Maticpodcast guru podverse.
I think anytime I use those,those were tied into my Albie, my
(27:00):
one wallet, and I could streamno matter where I was at.
That part was easy.
So for me, again, I think.
And when.
When you brought this up, it'sa good point.
On one hand, it does make thepodcaster more excited about it,
but also, I don't know thatfrom the listener side, there are
people that are like going,man, I wish there was a way I could
give this person money.
(27:21):
But I do think, I know.
I feel different because Iknow when the whole Alby thing kind
of blew up, I was like, oh,I'm listening to this person's show
now and I'm getting it for free.
And I was like, maybe I'll goout and see if they have a PayPal
button or something like that.
Because I was used to givingback to that show.
And that's where I found it interesting.
Because as a listener, it's adifferent kind of connection when
(27:43):
you're giving somebody moneyfor their stuff.
I can't really explain it, butit's just like you're officially
part of the team.
It's like you put on theirjersey in a way, if it was a sports
team, it's like, yeah, I'mpart of their, their team now.
And you felt responsible forthe stuff coming back to you.
Like, yay.
That last episode, I had asmall part in that because of my
contributions, just as a wayto say thank you.
(28:06):
And sometimes that's all youneed to keep going.
It's just to get a little bitof recognition and go, all right,
this could be bigger in the future.
I'll just keep doing this for now.
So that's to me, I would loveto see that come back.
And it sounds like it iscoming back.
I just need to head over toPodcast Index Social and see if there's
more news that I may be missing.
And if we can make it easy,that would be awesome.
(28:28):
And we've got a deadline.
I think that's either alreadypassed by the time this episode comes
out or is coming very soon,where the getalbi.com wallets will
be no longer available.
So you have to move over tosomething else.
And they're pushing people toAlbi Hub, which I've got to set up
(28:48):
myself soon.
I'm going to do the Dockerroute, run it on one of my servers
that I have.
But there are two things thatcould be big disruptors coming that
could help or hurt what you'retalking about.
And this idea.
Well, one thing with PresidentTrump being reelected and coming
in, and he is very pro cryptoand he's spoken a lot about crypto.
(29:11):
I mean, bitcoin has doubled invalue because of his being re elected
and we could see it go even higher.
We don't know, but we're notmaking predictions here.
This is not financial advice.
Do not only invest what you'rewilling to lose, all of that stuff.
But I do think that certainlyhis administration will be far more
pro crypto.
(29:31):
So everything that like Albiehas been afraid of before and afraid
of is, I think too demeaning.
But the stuff they've beenconcerned about or the laws and some
of this stuff, some of thatmight become moot points in 2025
and beyond, because some ofthese laws could change that, make
a lot of this stuff easier onthe companies to be able to provide
the services to us that weneed to exchange it and send it back
(29:55):
and forth and such.
So that could be one disruptorthere, whatever happens with the
incoming administration.
The other disruptor is youmentioned PayPal and Stripe and certain
services like that.
There are two obstacles tousing those more in the podcasting
space with thesemicrotransactions and like micro
(30:16):
microtransactions giving 50cents or 10 cents or a penny per
minute that you listen oranything like that.
The two obstacles with thesesystems are, first of all, there
are other systems you have togo elsewhere to use, whether that's
PayPal, Stripe, Cash App, anyof those things.
Fill in the blank.
You have to go somewhere elseand send it, send the money to the
(30:40):
podcaster.
It's not built directly intothe app.
There have been some thingshere and there, like Marco recently
talked about why he removedthe PayPal button or the support
button from Overcast, and itwasn't because Apple needed him to.
It's because he was worriedApple might tell him that he couldn't
put out an update because ofthat feature.
(31:00):
And that's disappointing.
I'm not going to criticize his moves.
There, but yeah, because it'sbeen there.
A while, but it is gone nowfrom Overcast.
And there are other apps,though, doing similar things, allowing
people to Send paymentsthrough PayPal by clicking on a button
that's inside the app.
I don't know exactly thedeveloper rules that Apple has or
that Google has that peoplemight be concerned about there.
(31:23):
But anyway, even if you havethat button, the other obstacle then.
So even if you bring thepayment somehow onto the platform
and it's something that enoughpeople can use PayPal, Stripe, credit
card, Cash app, Venmo, any ofthose things, whatever it is, even
if it was just one thing thatenough people used, the other obstacle
(31:45):
is the fee structure, becausemost of these places take a percentage,
which is common and totallyacceptable to take a percentage but
they also take a flat rate fee.
It's typically around $0.50per transaction.
So if you get into a spacewhere like even just you were talking
(32:06):
about supporting podcasts thatyou listen to right now, cash flow
is still an issue for me.
But I would love to be in aplace where I could support podcasts
that I listen to, even if it'ssimply $0.50 per episode or $0.10
per episode.
Because if I could do that,then maybe other people could do
that.
And if I could do that easily,then maybe other people could do
that easily.
The problem is you cannot send10 cents through PayPal.
(32:30):
I don't think they'll even letyou try it because the fee is more
than the actual payment.
Yeah.
So the potential disruptor iswhat if these places like PayPal
and Stripe, especially becauseStripe accepting credit card payments
and ACH transfers and ApplePay and Google Pay, what if they
(32:52):
change their payment structureso that they no longer have that
flat fee?
Then you could very easilybuild something like that into a
podcast app to send micromicrotransactions without any of
the crypto stuff that could bea huge disruptor.
They announced something like that.
I think they call it beingSherlocked because on the macOS side,
(33:14):
there was an app calledSherlock that has been replaced many
years ago by Command Spacebaron a Mac, which is the Siri shortcut
or the Quick Find toolbar thing.
And so Apple every now andthen comes out with something that
basically kills somebusiness's business model out there.
Like Apple now has thejournaling app.
(33:36):
Well, day one is probablylike, oh no.
And their business is probablysuffering because of that.
They're getting Sherlocked inthe podcasting space.
All of this crypto stuff couldget Sherlocked if one of these major
developer friendly platformslike stripe or even PayPal suddenly
changes their paymentstructure to support the microtransactions.
(33:57):
And I think that could be a.
Good thing, actually, again,if it makes it easy.
And of course, the confusingthing is there is Stripe, which is
what a lot of people, and thenthere is Strike, which with a K,
which is what I was talkingabout earlier with tying my bank
to it and that whole nine yards.
Yeah, it's the fees.
If you ever wonder, like, whydo we keep going with crypto?
(34:19):
That's why it's the fees thatmake it pretty much impossible or
worthless to do with, youknow, for lack of a better phrase,
regular money.
So it's, it's tricky, but Iwould love to see it come.
It's already back.
Like it's you can still use Fountain.
You can still use true fans.
I just, I'm looking for that,that universal place.
I guess the, the one thingthat, that I kind of scratch my head
(34:41):
with.
Like, okay, we come up with anew way.
Wherever I have my wallet, Ithink everybody's going to have to
have.
Instead of Albie hosting mywallet, I'm gonna have to have my
own wallet in something.
And that's, that's like, let'ssay I go, I know Strike with a K.
Strike sounds like they mighthave a way to receive crypto.
(35:05):
And I'm like, well, what'sgoing to stop them from having the
same thing that happened to Alby?
Like, if I get a bunch ofpeople sending in Boostograms and
all of a sudden they have athousand wallets on their know their
system and everybody gets abunch of Boostograms, what is going
to stop what worried Alby frommaking Strike with a K.
(35:27):
This is going to be their name now.
What's going to stop them fromgetting worried and going, hey, we're
going to draw some attention here.
So that's the part that Idon't know if you can future proof
that because.
And I said the guy again, whodoesn't understand crypto a whole
lot.
But I just know, like, unlessyou host your own wallet, which then
goes to, I guess maybe havingyour own server, I don't know, how
(35:49):
do we.
Can you think of anything likehow do we avoid that whole situation?
Well, I think the way thatStrike does it is that they have
the resources to be able toadhere to all of the laws and they
have certain policies andprocedures in place.
Like a big thing is calledkyc, Know your customer.
Where if you're dealing withfinancial transactions, many of these
(36:11):
companies are required to haveinformation about you, like your
identity, your address, yourSocial Security number, all of this
stuff.
So they know their customer.
And some companies just don'twant to deal with that.
And that's why they willforbid people from the United States
from using their tool isbecause they don't want to have to
(36:32):
mess with KYC requirements.
That's one thing.
There could be other aspectsto it because the whole idea of if
you are exchanging money,well, then you're in exchange.
And exchanges have to meetcertain requirements too.
An idea I had recently that Iwondered, could this be done?
(36:54):
It could.
Okay, how could it be done orhow reasonable is it for this to
be done is what if like youwere talking about the wallet situation.
And yeah, that's a Messy thing.
Like, people shouldn't have tothink about wallets at all.
It should just be, hey, I putmoney in my podcast app, I send money
to a podcaster, podcasterreceive money.
The end.
(37:15):
One way that could be done is,and I don't know the laws around
this, but what if we'll sayCast o Matic?
So what if in Cast o Matic, Iloaded up with $100 in my wallet?
In Cast o Matic wallet, in ageneral sense, but it's still dollars.
It's not cryptocurrency, it isdollars that they are holding for
(37:36):
me and I can get back wheneverI want, minus whatever transaction
fees, probably.
Then when I want to send thatto a podcaster, they then convert
it to cryptocurrency, probablyBitcoin on the Lightning Network.
They send it over to thepodcaster's quote, wallet, unquote,
(37:57):
and.
And then the podcaster'swallet instantly transfers it back
into dollars, so that it'sbeen crypto for only the minute that
it took to transfer and onlyfor the sake of the transfer.
Then you lose or gain almostno value difference in it.
So if I send a dollar, you'regoing to receive very close to a
(38:19):
dollar.
You'll receive less, ofcourse, after the fees and such that
are natural in the space.
But could something like thatbe done?
It's still, yeah, technicallythey're exchanging currencies, so
I don't know the legality ofthat, but that's one idea that could
be done with it.
The other thing, though,actually maybe a third disruptor
(38:39):
in this.
Look at what Apple did withPatreon, the patreon app in 2024,
where they were saying thatanyone who supports someone through
Patreon, through the Patreonapp on iPhone, if that's where they
created their payment, Applewants a cut, they want their 30%.
(39:01):
That's going to happen topodcast apps too.
If they accept a payment,Apple is going to at some point probably
say, hey, we need 30%.
So that could be a horribledisruptor there.
Now, maybe the loophole tothat is, is Patreon accepts the payments
on behalf of the creators andthen sends those payments minus their
(39:25):
fees to the creators.
So Patreon is receiving themoney, but in the podcast apps, maybe
it could be designed where themoney goes directly to the creator
and therefore Apple doesn'tget their cut.
Like you look at any of Theseapps, Strike, PayPal, Venmo, Cash
App, all of these things thatdo work on Apple devices and Android
(39:49):
devices and other Things yousend money directly to someone or
receive money directly fromsomeone, and there are no fees from
Apple.
And Apple is totally okay with that.
I think that's because it's adirect person to person transfer
of money, and that's why Appledoesn't need their fees.
But if it's like a companytaking lots of payments, like Patreon's
(40:13):
case, that's where Apple wantstheir cut.
So that could be a disruptor too.
Yeah, kind of like in the Albisituation, it wasn't really much
of a concern until it startedtaking off.
And that's when they're like.
And so it might be a similarsituation where Apple's not worried
about it now until they startnoticing that.
Wait a minute, there's a wholebunch of people clicking that boostogram
(40:36):
button.
What's going on with that?
Yeah, that's true.
I hadn't thought about that.
And there's for sure thereward aspect for the podcaster,
even if it's just pennies.
And the more accessible it is,I think the more people that will
do it as they realize, hey, Ican give only 5 cents an episode
automatically.
(40:56):
Sure, I can afford 5 cents.
But you look at, like, whatAdam's talked about with the booster
grand ball that he did thelive thing recently, and some of
these people that have beenfeatured on Wave Lake and such, how
they've gotten so excited atthe money they've received, not because
it's a huge amount, butbecause it is proportionally so much
(41:21):
higher than they're gettingfrom Spotify and Apple Music and
Pandora and all of thosetypical streaming places.
And like you were saying, it'sthat fan aspect too, that the people
are supporting the musiciansdirectly and that makes the people
get more excited and feel morepart of it.
It's kind of this funny cycle.
(41:41):
I talk about this a lot withpeople who use podgagement is that
once you get someone into anengagement cycle, then it starts
to.
They just get into thecircular cycle and it starts to get
them exponentially more engaged.
Because once they engage,they're going to engage more deeply.
And then when they engage moredeeply, they'll engage more deeply
(42:02):
and more and more deeply like that.
So once someone pays and givessome money directly, they'll realize,
hey, this is pretty cool.
Yeah, I'm a part of this.
I want to buy something again.
I want to support them again.
Absolutely.
Yep.
I heard that from Adam and hesaid, again, a lot of people are
just like, this is recognitionthat what I created has value.
(42:24):
And it's it's in a way, I waskind of feel like, well, it has value
even if somebody doesn'trecognize it.
It's kind of if the tree fallsin the woods kind of thing.
Like, if you make a great songand nobody hears it, does that mean
the song wasn't any good?
No, it just means nobody heard it.
But again, that's why I wantto see it work.
I want to make it easy and gothere and, you know, if you think
about just the two things wetalked about, they're both ways are
(42:46):
interacting with thepodcaster, cross app comments, building
that tribe.
And then some of those peoplemight want to click the other button
that says boost.
And both ways the podcaster isgetting direct feedback.
And then they can turn thataround to make a better show if they
can, you know, somehow enhance it.
And when you get the audienceinvolved, I still get giddy when
(43:09):
I hear somebody.
I forget what I was listening to.
Matthew Passi does a showabout podcasting tech, and Sarah
St John was on and she said heasked him, like, what podcast do
you listen to?
And she said, I listen topodcasts about podcasting.
So.
Well, you know, Dave Jackson,everybody knows that.
And instantly I was.
I got all giddy, like somebodysaid my name.
(43:29):
And so anytime a audiencemember does something, it's like,
hey, I heard you.
I've listened to you.
I like that.
Whatever it is, you alwaysfeel like it's that recognition that
makes you all giddy, giddy.
I say, what if something hadto be sacrificed in order to make
the payments work?
(43:50):
Like the streaming Satoshi'sidea of streaming based on how long
you listen.
What if that had to be sacrificed?
I mean, that's a neat featurebecause it was another kind of hack
way to figure out how farpeople listened.
Because every minute you'd seeit's, you know, Bob Jones, Bob Jones,
Bob Jones.
Then at the 23 minute mark,all of a sudden, Bob Jones is no
longer contributing.
(44:10):
You're like, oh, Bob dropped off.
What happened at the 23 minute mark?
But I also know to me, do weneed that every, you know, minute
representation?
So if that was something theylike, man, that's a lot of taxation
on the, I don't know, the appresources or whatever the technology
is.
If it was something whereevery five minutes or maybe when
(44:33):
somebody press stop, theypress play, it kind of puts them
in a little pile.
And then the minute somebodyhits pause or stop, the app somehow
then goes, oh, well, theyaccumulated 37 SATs.
Send it over to Dave.
I think I'd be perfectly finewith that.
Like, we've got streamingsatoshis that have come in from Randy
Black and Brian Insminer andSam Sethi for the future of podcasting.
(44:58):
Especially, like, we've bothcomplained to each other about the
way some of these websitesdisplay this, where it's just streaming
sat after one after another.
To see just a whole page of.
Here are all of thesestreaming sats from one person.
Because it's that minute byminute by minute.
Yeah, they need a filter onthat somehow or something to give
(45:18):
us a better idea of what we'relooking at.
Dwev Also to give him a shout out.
Steve Webb.
Yeah, the original godcasterSteve Webb.
Nicholas B58.
Not to be confused withNicholas B57.
Yeah, there was Nicholas B.
57.
There were that many otherNicholas B's, so he had to be number
58.
And 57's a jerk.
(45:38):
58's great.
So, yes, thank you to everyonewho's been sending in the satoshis
in.
However, whatever systemyou're using, if they're still coming
in, we appreciate that.
You know, as long as we'retalking about it, let's read some
booster grams.
I've got them in front.
Randy Black said, I love thecheap plugs for your own products.
(46:00):
Lol.
I jest.
Love you guys.
Another great and informative episode.
A thousand SATs from Randy Black.
Thank you, Randy.
Were there plugs in this show?
I don't remember plugs.
Do you remember plugs?
I don't.
Maybe.
Maybe there was a plug forschoolofpodcasting.com maybe.
I thought I might have heardone for podgagement, but I don't
know.
I thought that was just a coincidence.
I don't know, maybe peopleshould go to those websites to find
(46:22):
out if there's a plug.
And Brian Insprener sent 500SATs saying Dave is a silent knight.
That's Knight with a K.
Yes.
And Brian Insprener also sentA Star Trek Boost 1701 SATS saying
true fan zap from looking atsplits, filling a wallet and CDNs.
Love the buzzwords.
(46:43):
Thank you so much for thosestreaming sats.
Do you know what A SilentNight is?
No.
Actually, A Silent Night isI've been donating 1111 to no Agenda
for months, for decades, tothe point where I've now given them
at least a thousand dollars.
Oh, that makes sense.
And so I'm a silent night.
I've never claimed my.
(47:03):
I've never got my ring it'salways one of Those things, I'm like,
I'll send them a something tomake me an associate producer and
claim my knight, who I justcan't figure out what I want.
My Sir Dave, Dean of Podcasting.
I'm like, what are you cannotbe the Knight of podcasting 2.0.
That's me.
That's my title.
Yeah.
I was going to be Sir Laurenof Beef because my mom loved that
(47:24):
pun in a Bugs Bunny.
It's like, I am Sir Lauren of Beef.
I think it was Daffy Duck andsomebody took it.
I was like, oh, they took my surname.
So I have to.
And to me, I'm like, dean ofPodcasting sounds way too cheesy.
So if I come up with a goodsurname, I will come out of the shadows.
You might have one right there.
You could be surname of podcasting.
(47:45):
There you go.
Maybe.
Anybody ever send us boostsover there, Daniel?
Or are we.
That was it for now.
Thank you so much for thosebooster grams, the streaming satoshis.
I think I mentioned everyonethat's done it since our last episode
and some of those streamingsthat don't always come in, we don't
get the email notificationsfor the streaming sats.
So that's why sometimes wedon't mention those as frequently
(48:08):
as the booster grams that we receive.
But thank you so much for that support.
It means a lot.
Dave and I split it.
Dave gets the majority of itand we split those satoshis.
And it is very much appreciated.
When I get 51%, I think that'sthe majority.
I get them.
I was like, wait a minute, what?
But yeah, yeah, we do deeplyappreciate that.
(48:29):
Every little helps.
And, you know, for moreinformation, check us out@futureofpodcasting.net
I think that's going to be itfor episode 55 of the Future of Podcasting.
If you haven't followed theshow yet, go to futureofpodcasting.net
follow.
And if you're listening tothis on the way down to PodFest in
Orlando, stop by the PodPagebooth to see Dave Jackson and stop
(48:52):
by the PodGagement booth tosee me.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that's it.
Keep boosting and keep podcasting.
Our biggest wishes for 2025.
This is the future ofPodcasting, where.
We ponder what awaits thepodcasters of today.
From the school of podcasting,here's Dave Jackson.
And from the Audacity toPodcast, here's Daniel J.
Lewis.
Daniel, future of podcasting.
Episode number 55, Happy New Year.
(00:22):
It's our biggest wishes for 2025.
It's a new year.
We've got new hopes, newdreams, new things to.
And so I know, I guess it waslast year we talked about our.
Our biggest hopes for 2024.
It wasn't a prediction show,it was a hope show.
And so this year we thought wewould pick just.
(00:43):
If you could only have one,what would be your biggest hope,
your biggest wish?
If you had a whole team ofdevelopers and they could only work
on one thing, what would youhave them work on?
Yeah, because there's so muchbeing developed right now, and I
understand there is somefrustration among the community right
now because there are lots oflittle things being discussed, lots
(01:06):
of little features, lots ofother things being talked about and
experimented with and problemstrying to be solved and certain things
being played with and certainnew ideas being developed.
There's a lot of stuff going on.
So this isn't to downplay anyof that, that there is momentum,
there is stuff moving.
But what if.
What if we could all unifyaround one or two features?
(01:29):
And even for this episode,what is our one feature?
Like, my one feature and yourone feature, Dave, and you listening
right now, what would be theone thing you would want too?
Now, your ability to respondto that kind of depends on one of
these two things that we'regoing to share as well.
(01:50):
Yeah, that is true.
And I get it.
We're a bunch of nerds and arecreative, so it's really easy for
us to just scamper off.
And there are times when, likeyou said, I know there are times
I'm a little frustratedbecause it's like we have a hundred
peanuts and we're all pushingthem, like a centimeter each.
(02:10):
There's part of me, and then Ifeel like I'm selfish.
I'm like, but I want my thing.
I feel like I'm in.
What was the bad girl in Willy Wonka?
You know, I want it now, Daddy.
You know, but if we could justpick one peanut and move it a mile,
you know, I think in a way wemight feel like we're accomplishing
more because we are.
Like you said, we are moving forward.
We're moving 100 peanuts at atime instead of four peanuts a mile.
(02:36):
And we have two things we'regoing to talk about.
Daniel, I will let you havethe floor First.
My big thing that I would loveto see happen in 2025 is finally
cross app comments.
The reason for this is I'm nowlooking aggressively at every proposal
and discussion point and ideathat comes in with podcasting 2.0.
(02:59):
And there are so many good ideas.
I love it.
I love the creativity.
With every new idea that comesin, I think, how does this benefit
the audience?
Because that's what we really,really need to focus on.
For the audience to want touse a different podcast app, there
has to be a benefit to them,not a benefit to the podcaster.
(03:20):
Not some little data thingthat's just a super niche sort of
need.
But there needs to be a bigbenefit to the podcaster that they
think, yes, I am so willing toswitch podcast apps because I want
this other thing and I wouldlove to see that be cross app comments.
And I think it is somethingthat benefits everyone, really.
(03:40):
It is of benefit to theaudiences and it's also of benefit
to the podcasters because itis that engagement.
So, again, cross app commentsis the idea.
I'll give some implementationexamples in a minute.
But it's the idea that you canuse whatever podcasting 2.0 compatible
podcast app to consume a podcast.
(04:02):
And there would be a commentfield where you could post a comment
in there and read commentsfrom others who are using the same
or different podcast apps.
So that's where it's cross app comments.
It's comments across thedifferent apps out there.
It doesn't matter which appyou're using.
You can still participate inthe conversation with the podcasters
(04:25):
as well as other people in thecommunity listening to the same episodes.
Because that is where so much happens.
Like, Dave, you see this everySaturday morning.
What happens in the chat roomwhile you're doing Ask the podcast
coach.
Yeah, a giant chat that manytimes is having their own show.
Like, I'm talking about topicA and I look over in the chat room
(04:46):
has gone into topic B and C.
But the beauty of it is, andthat's one of the reasons why I still
do that show, is I'm gettinginstant feedback.
And in the case of across acomment, I mean, those are live.
And yeah, I can go back andhave YouTube play them, but the fact
that I could not have to go toYouTube to see them and the fact
that they're just kind ofthere and you can just go in and
(05:08):
see them, I don't have to likescroll through, halfway through.
I could probably just have itthere to do that.
That would be one of my questions.
Where are these comments goingto live?
Because they got to be stored somewhere.
Yeah.
And there are multipletechnical approaches that could be
considered to that.
Like, we've talked aboutthings like Activity Streams and
Activity Pub.
There have been otherproposals for different things.
(05:29):
Here's what I think it comesdown to.
Technologically, we needsomething in the RSS feed.
And as I pointed out a whileback, and also has been brought up
again recently, there isalready a comments tag for RSS feeds.
And what the comments tag issupposed to do is it points to the
location of comments andthat's it.
(05:51):
And there is no specificationfor how those comments are then formatted.
We could say in podcasting2.0, maybe it's simply podcast colon,
comments is the tag.
Maybe we hijack the comments tag.
But we could say that commentsneed to follow a particular structure,
a data structure for it to bereadable for the app.
(06:11):
Whether that's XML, GraphQL,JSON, anything like that, it doesn't
really matter.
But it's something that theapps can use in something that's
standard.
But we could go with thatapproach where it simply links to
where those comments exist.
Then there is the issue of howdo those comments get there?
(06:32):
And the ability for thepodcaster to have moderation control
over those comments, which isa very important thing without blocking
someone.
Because there could be a caselike a family friendly podcast and
someone says, that's thebleeping funniest thing I've ever
heard.
And they're just being genuinethat they thought was hilarious.
But you as the podcasterthink, ah, I don't want bleeping
(06:53):
there in my comments becausethis is a family friendly podcast.
I don't want that profanity inthe comments section.
So you might want to deleteit, but you don't want to block that
person from commenting becauseit's not like they're being abusive
or they're attacking you orthey're trolling, anything like that.
You just want to remove that comment.
And I think there might alsobe a good need for the audiences
(07:15):
to be able to edit theircomments to fix typos, correct things,
update things as needed and such.
The editing, that's notnecessarily as important, I think,
but it would still be reallygood to be there.
But technologically all youneed to do is whatever that comments
tag is linking to could beessentially an index of, here's where
(07:38):
all of the comments exist.
So just like an RSS feed isbasically an index of audio or video
files along with some metadatawith each of those things, the comments
feed for each episode and forthe show overall could simply be
that index of.
Here's where all of thesecomments are.
(07:58):
Now an interesting advantageto that is that it could then be
easily multi platform whereyou could tie it in with bluesky
or X or Mastodon or ActivityPub or your website or anything like
that.
All it needs to be is that thedata from whatever that platform
(08:19):
is is accessible, freelyaccessible through some kind of API
method so that that commentcould be displayed in.
So imagine this, you couldhave some people commenting through
Activity Pub, like en masse Dawn.
You could have some peoplecommenting on your website, you could
have some people commenting onsome podcast apps.
Proprietary commenting systemlike GoodPods has a proprietary commenting
(08:43):
system.
It could be anything like that.
Then all that needs to be doneis that data needs to be exposed
in a standard way and theneach comment has an entry in that
index file.
And then the podcast appsthough would have to understand how
to read each of those commentsfrom those separate platforms.
(09:05):
You know, GoodPods mightformat their JSON data differently
from how Activity Pub formats it.
That could be allowable aslong as it's obvious which format
it is.
And then the podcast apps canjust support new things.
So there is that kind ofmethod that does push more onto the
(09:25):
app developers to build insupport for, okay, now we need to
support this new protocolthat's supported in this.
But still the concept is thatI really think the technology itself
that we use should not matterso much as the accessibility, which
is what's most important forthe audience.
(09:46):
The audience should not haveto create some account somewhere
else outside of their podcast app.
I think everything they doshould be right there inside their
podcast app.
I even think they shouldn'thave to have an account they log
into with the podcast app.
They could comment anonymouslyor they wouldn't have to use a third
(10:07):
party account like a Facebookor an X in order to log in to identify
themselves.
They could just inside of theapp identify themselves as they choose
to, you know, fill in theblank fields of this is my name,
this is my email address inorder to identify me in the system
or anything like that.
Kind of like we've had withWordPress comments and other commenting
systems on websites for years.
(10:28):
We need to make it simple andeasy for the audience to leave a
comment, to read the commentsand to respond to each other.
Because the other thing, Dave,I go to Ask the podcast coach on
Saturday mornings for is the community?
Yeah, it's fun to watch youand Dave live and to chat a little
bit with you, but it also justfeels like, hey, I'm hanging out
(10:53):
with some other podcastingfriends because it's often the same
couple dozen people or so in there.
So it's like, hey, good to seeyou again.
You know, happy Saturday.
Haven't seen you since last Saturday.
Or how'd that thing go thatyou tried since last week?
Anything like that, where thecommunity is building around the
content, and that's when youget the super fans, because you have
(11:18):
made a tribe for them.
You have made a community forthem to communicate with each other.
That's why I want Cross Appcomments to be that number one thing
that we finally get working in 2025.
I know, and I will accept thatI may not like the method or the
technology or maybe the nameof the tag or anything like that,
(11:42):
but at this point, it's kindof like I just want to see it done,
because this is something thateveryone I've told that this could
be a possibility.
They've been really excitedabout it, Both podcast consumers
and podcasters.
We need to have this done.
It's taken so long.
I know Adam has bemoaned acouple times saying that basically
(12:03):
it seems like the community'sgiven up on it.
Whatever it takes.
If I need to be the one tospearhead this too, I take that on
if I can.
But we need something, and Ithink this both benefits the audience
and the podcasters, and it'swhat I would love to see happen in
2025.
(12:23):
If I could have nothing elsein podcasting 2.0 developed, or just
in the future of thedevelopment of podcasting as a whole
industry.
If nothing else, I want this thing.
Cross App comments.
Yeah.
And I'd love to see it rolledout in a way.
And this kind of goes back tothe Podcast Standards project instead
of like, oh, this app has it.
(12:43):
And then three weeks later,this app has it.
And I'd love if we couldsomehow coordinate it to where we
all launch together.
So all of a sudden it's like,hey, here are seven apps that if
you are using these apps,you're going to see these comments,
because I think that wouldcreate enough fear of missing out.
But like, wait a minute, I'musing Apple Podcasts.
(13:04):
What are these other.
How many?
Well, okay, maybe I'll go trythis now.
I'm with you.
I think you then create your tribe.
The only thing you said thatMade me scared is people posting
anonymously because I knowcomments on WordPress are many times
my.
I forget what I use Akismet, Ithink to find spam.
And there's always.
And it's marketers ruin everything.
(13:25):
So I could see them justcreating a bot to leave comments
on podcasts that all point tosome website.
And I think there's more to bedeveloped there that can help prevent
that or to give more power tothe podcaster.
Like the podcaster coulddecide, I do not want anonymous comments.
Some podcaster could decide, Iknow my podcast is sensitive.
(13:47):
I know that whether it'spolitical, moral, whatever.
And so I'm going to be okaywith people not identifying themselves
because I want this to be asafe space for them to be able to
comment anything like that.
Yeah.
So there are certainly lots ofthings to figure out, but it's the
core that I think is what'smost important and as I harp on frequently,
(14:11):
is thinking about what will wewant this to do later?
To make sure that we build afoundation now that we can build
on later?
Yeah, anything we build now,we have to kind of go, will this
work?
And I know technology changesall the time, but is this going to
be, to the best of ourknowledge, future proof that it's
not going to shoot ourselvesin the foot?
(14:33):
And speaking of technologychanging all the time, podcasting
technology changes all thetime too.
Dave, is there a podcast andmaybe even a membership site where
people could go to keep upwith leveraging the technology and
really focusing on making abetter podcast?
If only there was a school for that.
(14:53):
Do you know of a place?
I think there's a place calledschoolofpodcasting.com in fact, I
think they even have a coupon code.
If you use the coupon codelistnr, you can save on either a
monthly or yearly subscription.
And one of the members therewas talking about how they really
liked seeing where they werein the charts on the different charts
(15:14):
of Apple and such, because itgave them a sense of things are working
or things are not.
And if only there was someplace because doggone at Chartable
went out of business.
If there was only a placewhere somebody could not only get
voicemails and reviews andeverything else, but if they could
see the chart positions.
Daniel, do you know of anyplace that somebody could do that?
Well, you know, it's funny youask podgagement.com this sounds so
(15:38):
scripted, but I promise you,listener, this is not scripted.
But yeah.
Podgagement.com I launched thecharts feature about two months ago.
And actually I quietlylaunched a new feature too that I
haven't announced yet to my members.
But now you can embed ratingsand reviews on your site through
dynamic lists.
(15:58):
Like, you can say, I want allmy 4 star and 5 stars reviews to
appear on my site, or all thereviews that I tag with this particular
tag, or all the reviews fromApple Podcasts or from the United
States or whatever.
You can make the smart list orembed individual reviews.
That's now available too,over@podgagement.com Wayne, I.
(16:19):
Have a question on that.
So if I say automatically showall five star reviews and I get the
code and put it on my website,there I've got five star reviews.
Then 20 minutes later anotherfive star review comes in.
Does it automatically thenshow up on my website?
Yeah, there will be somecaching involved with it, but yeah,
it will automatically show up.
(16:39):
Now, if you wanted to dosomething like you always want only
5 reviews, you can also do that.
You can limit it to show onlythe latest five.
Interesting.
Yeah, I had fun building thatwhen that one was fun.
Now I want to throw this toyou, Dave, for you.
What would be that one thingyou would want in 2025 if you could
have nothing else but this one thing?
(17:02):
What would that be?
Yeah, the thing for me when Iwas talking about it was like, what's
podcasting 2.0?
And I'd explain that we'reexpanding its reach and it's going
to have more features andblah, blah, blah, and they would
kind of go, that sounds like agood idea.
And then the minute I said,oh, and people can stream Bitcoin
to you, so the longer theylisten, the more you get paid, that
(17:24):
always be like, wait a minute,how do you sign up for that?
That always caught people's attention.
And when we talk about beingfuture proof, we've talked about
Albie on this show and Iunderstand why they did what they
did.
I'm still not quite sure.
And this is where I've said itmany times, I don't know anything
about crypto, but I just wantthat back.
(17:46):
Because right now it's.
I don't want to say stalled.
That's.
That's a little negative, butit's not.
We've taken a step backwardsand it doesn't seem.
I know there are plenty ofpeople working on potential fixes.
I know there's now the splitbox that Steven is put forth and
a.
Lot of great potential there.
I really like the concept.
(18:08):
Yeah, I just remember when Iworked at Libsyn if there was ever
a time that there was aproblem with stats, that place like
everybody dropped what theywere doing and everybody like stats
were fixed.
There was never a statsproblem that went longer than five
minutes or something like that.
Everybody dropped everything.
(18:28):
And you never lost your stats.
It was usually how they weredisplayed because there was always
this machine collecting them.
But the minute there was aproblem with displaying them because
we knew that the longer thatwent on, the more emails support
was going to get.
And so when this went down,and this is where I feel selfish,
I'm kind of like, hey, can wedo kind of like an all hands on getting
this streaming thing back up?
(18:50):
Because for me, that was theone that gathered people's attention.
They're like, wait a minute,how hard is it to set that up?
And so if I'm completelyhonest, when I hear like the godcaster
sounds like a great projectand paying musicians is a great thing
because I'm an old musician,but there is a part of me that wants
to be Veruca Salt.
(19:10):
I believe if I remember it washer name, you know, I want streaming
payments now, daddy.
And that's where it's greatthat Dave and Adam, like, I heard
about the split box.
I was like, okay, good.
And that's my own fault.
I need to be more involved inPodcast Index social.
I'm sure they're talking aboutit over there more.
But if all you're waiting onis the podcasting 2.0 show, you have
(19:32):
no idea what's going on.
And so it just seems like Iremember every week and there was
some company that Dave wasworking with that they had some sort
of non disclosure that theycouldn't talk about it, but they
were working with it.
I forget the name of it.
And then nothing happened.
It was like, oh, so there's.
We're always kind of like, isthis going to be the episode where
we get back on track?
(19:53):
Where we get back on track.
So for me, it just seemed asmuch as we would always say, oh,
there's so much more thanstreaming satoshis and podcasting
2.0, and there's transcriptsand there's the people tag and the
pod roll was great.
And, and that was one of thegreat things that happened in 2024.
But the, for me, the one just,just from telling people about podcasting
(20:17):
2.0, the one that people wouldgo, wait a minute, hold on, how does
that work?
I just saw somebody justposted a poll in Facebook.
I think it was in.
It might have been in podcast Movement.
And they asked about money,and it was like, are you using your
podcast to make money for your business?
Are you a hobbyist butwouldn't mind making money or.
(20:38):
And I forget the third one,but the majority of people, and I've
always said this, I know thereare a lot of people.
I know Todd will say, thereare a lot of people just doing it
for fun.
And that's true.
I mean, we kind of do thisshow for fun, and I get to hang out
with Daniel J.
Lewis, so to win.
But it's also in the back ofmy mind, it would be great if this
also made money.
There's always that, yeah,it'd be cool.
(20:59):
And if we could make that easy.
Because I have found that whenI bring up stuff with money, a lot
of times the response is,well, if I could just get it to break
even.
If I could just, like, I'm notreally trying to make it my second
job, but, you know, And Ialways hear the voice of someone's
spouse in their ear going, youspent how much on podcasting?
(21:19):
If I could just get it tobreak even, I think I'd be okay.
You know, there's a funnypsychological thing there that for
years that I think I spokeincorrectly about.
And that was.
We often talk about, well, youknow, if you get into a hobby, like
model trains or baseball cardsor any of that, do you really ask
people, hey, are you makingmoney with that now?
(21:41):
Some people do, yes, for sure.
So that aside, though, mostpeople that get into those things,
like, I was into baseballcards and coin collecting as a kid,
and I just did it for the funof it and that kind of hobby, the
collecting kind of hobby, tojust put a label on it.
This might not necessarily bethe best label of it, but it is a
selfish hobby.
(22:02):
It is me collecting somethingfor myself or doing a hobby because
I enjoy it.
Maybe that is shared with acouple other people, too.
You know, maybe you like beingin this community of people who do
this same kind of hobby, butyou're all basically doing it for
yourselves, and you're talkingabout the things that you're doing
for yourselves, and you'recomparing and getting tips and all
of that.
(22:22):
Podcasting, though, andcontent creation in general, blogging,
videos, wherever.
It's a different kind ofthing, because it's not always for
you, because we are creating something.
I know some people don't likethat term creating, but we are giving
content, we are giving valueto other people.
(22:44):
It's not just about collectingstuff for us.
We are making stuff for otherpeople that we hope other people
will enjoy or benefit from insome way.
I think that is why we tend tothink of podcasting, and I say we,
as like the generalindependent podcaster, we tend to
think of podcasting as, howcan I make it break even?
(23:05):
How can I make some money with this?
Because it's not just a,quote, selfish, unquote hobby of.
We're just getting stuff for us.
We are giving value to others.
And I think that feeling is inus realizing we are giving value,
and maybe there should be avalue exchange.
How can we make a valueexchange happen?
(23:25):
Yeah, I actually today had acoaching client, and he's had 30
years in sales and just wantsto give back.
He's like, sales has been verygood to me, and I want to share some
of my knowledge.
And I said, well, how longhave you been thinking about doing
a podcast?
He said, probably five years,but he had imposter syndrome.
And I said, well, once again,when your need to give back or your
(23:48):
need to serve is greater thanyour fear of looking silly, that's
when you press record to go,and that's exactly where you are.
And so I think that is part of it.
People do this to give back,and then there comes a time when
they realize, hey, podcastingis kind of hard.
If I did get some money back,I just saw a movie about this female
(24:10):
Olympic boxer.
It's called the Fire Within.
Amazing story.
I won't spoil the movie, butshe got a gold medal and came home,
and, like, nothing changed.
She thought she was going tobe on a Wheaties box and endorsements
and not a lot of endorsementsin female boxing back in, like, 2009
or something like that.
And so they were with kind ofher manager slash agent, trying to
(24:31):
get money, and they weretalking about different things.
And he goes, well, is it the recognition?
Is it the money?
Like, what's the problem?
And she screams at him.
She's like, money is recognition.
And I think sometimes, even ifit was just a dime, I think people
just want to be recognized.
And so when they get thatlittle bit of a bitcoin or buy me
a coffee or whatever it is,it's like, hey, somebody likes this
(24:54):
enough to buy me a coffee.
And I know Adam hates that,but it's like, it's.
It's, again, it's recognition.
And that's where, again, Iwant this to be more than a.
A cup of coffee.
I want it to be.
Because we've had people that.
That stream pretty highstreams to this show that I was like,
oh, that adds up.
Thank you very much.
For anyone who's streaming,and then there are others, but it's.
(25:15):
It's.
Adam always says you canstream what you give.
You know, whatever you have to give.
If it's 2 cents a show or$2,000 a show, whatever you can do.
If you feel like giving back,that's the key.
It was a way for them to give back.
And I.
I hope it's.
It's easy.
I know now with the things,the way things are, again, I have
(25:35):
no idea what I'm doing, but Iknow I went and bought the.
The Albie Hub or whatever itwas, but now I have to go to Strike
to transfer money from my bankinto Strike.
And I think now I know for awhile, I think I had to wait 48 hours
before I could transfer itinto Albi.
I don't think that's the case anymore.
But I just.
Every time I do that, I getconfused because first I have to
(25:56):
go in and am I on the Bitcointab or the money tab?
Okay.
And then it says withdrawal,and then it says there's like, four
options.
It should be like, send orreceive or whatever.
And I'm always like, wait,which one is the one?
Okay, this one.
And so I've started justtransferring more money into Strike
so I don't have to do it.
I used to do it once a month,and now be like, let's do three months
(26:17):
worth, and then I'll throwthat into Albie and it's there to
stream, and I have to worryabout it.
But every time I do that,especially, like I said, I was doing
it once a month.
Well, every month, it'd belike, wait, how did I do this 30
days ago?
So I either need to makemyself a cheat sheet or just remember.
But if we could make that easier.
And that's where I.
I need to ask Sam, because,like I said, I used to go into true
(26:39):
fans, and I could just fill upmy Albi wallet through Trufans, and
then Sam would take his cut.
And that's fine.
He made it easy.
He gave me something valuable,let him take his piece, and then
it would just fill my Albie wallet.
And then I think I had ca.
Well, I really cast Maticpodcast guru podverse.
I think anytime I use those,those were tied into my Albie, my
(27:00):
one wallet, and I could streamno matter where I was at.
That part was easy.
So for me, again, I think.
And when.
When you brought this up, it'sa good point.
On one hand, it does make thepodcaster more excited about it,
but also, I don't know thatfrom the listener side, there are
people that are like going,man, I wish there was a way I could
give this person money.
(27:21):
But I do think, I know.
I feel different because Iknow when the whole Alby thing kind
of blew up, I was like, oh,I'm listening to this person's show
now and I'm getting it for free.
And I was like, maybe I'll goout and see if they have a PayPal
button or something like that.
Because I was used to givingback to that show.
And that's where I found it interesting.
Because as a listener, it's adifferent kind of connection when
(27:43):
you're giving somebody moneyfor their stuff.
I can't really explain it, butit's just like you're officially
part of the team.
It's like you put on theirjersey in a way, if it was a sports
team, it's like, yeah, I'mpart of their, their team now.
And you felt responsible forthe stuff coming back to you.
Like, yay.
That last episode, I had asmall part in that because of my
contributions, just as a wayto say thank you.
(28:06):
And sometimes that's all youneed to keep going.
It's just to get a little bitof recognition and go, all right,
this could be bigger in the future.
I'll just keep doing this for now.
So that's to me, I would loveto see that come back.
And it sounds like it iscoming back.
I just need to head over toPodcast Index Social and see if there's
more news that I may be missing.
And if we can make it easy,that would be awesome.
(28:28):
And we've got a deadline.
I think that's either alreadypassed by the time this episode comes
out or is coming very soon,where the getalbi.com wallets will
be no longer available.
So you have to move over tosomething else.
And they're pushing people toAlbi Hub, which I've got to set up
(28:48):
myself soon.
I'm going to do the Dockerroute, run it on one of my servers
that I have.
But there are two things thatcould be big disruptors coming that
could help or hurt what you'retalking about.
And this idea.
Well, one thing with PresidentTrump being reelected and coming
in, and he is very pro cryptoand he's spoken a lot about crypto.
(29:11):
I mean, bitcoin has doubled invalue because of his being re elected
and we could see it go even higher.
We don't know, but we're notmaking predictions here.
This is not financial advice.
Do not only invest what you'rewilling to lose, all of that stuff.
But I do think that certainlyhis administration will be far more
pro crypto.
(29:31):
So everything that like Albiehas been afraid of before and afraid
of is, I think too demeaning.
But the stuff they've beenconcerned about or the laws and some
of this stuff, some of thatmight become moot points in 2025
and beyond, because some ofthese laws could change that, make
a lot of this stuff easier onthe companies to be able to provide
the services to us that weneed to exchange it and send it back
(29:55):
and forth and such.
So that could be one disruptorthere, whatever happens with the
incoming administration.
The other disruptor is youmentioned PayPal and Stripe and certain
services like that.
There are two obstacles tousing those more in the podcasting
space with thesemicrotransactions and like micro
(30:16):
microtransactions giving 50cents or 10 cents or a penny per
minute that you listen oranything like that.
The two obstacles with thesesystems are, first of all, there
are other systems you have togo elsewhere to use, whether that's
PayPal, Stripe, Cash App, anyof those things.
Fill in the blank.
You have to go somewhere elseand send it, send the money to the
(30:40):
podcaster.
It's not built directly intothe app.
There have been some thingshere and there, like Marco recently
talked about why he removedthe PayPal button or the support
button from Overcast, and itwasn't because Apple needed him to.
It's because he was worriedApple might tell him that he couldn't
put out an update because ofthat feature.
(31:00):
And that's disappointing.
I'm not going to criticize his moves.
There, but yeah, because it'sbeen there.
A while, but it is gone nowfrom Overcast.
And there are other apps,though, doing similar things, allowing
people to Send paymentsthrough PayPal by clicking on a button
that's inside the app.
I don't know exactly thedeveloper rules that Apple has or
that Google has that peoplemight be concerned about there.
(31:23):
But anyway, even if you havethat button, the other obstacle then.
So even if you bring thepayment somehow onto the platform
and it's something that enoughpeople can use PayPal, Stripe, credit
card, Cash app, Venmo, any ofthose things, whatever it is, even
if it was just one thing thatenough people used, the other obstacle
(31:45):
is the fee structure, becausemost of these places take a percentage,
which is common and totallyacceptable to take a percentage but
they also take a flat rate fee.
It's typically around $0.50per transaction.
So if you get into a spacewhere like even just you were talking
(32:06):
about supporting podcasts thatyou listen to right now, cash flow
is still an issue for me.
But I would love to be in aplace where I could support podcasts
that I listen to, even if it'ssimply $0.50 per episode or $0.10
per episode.
Because if I could do that,then maybe other people could do
that.
And if I could do that easily,then maybe other people could do
that easily.
The problem is you cannot send10 cents through PayPal.
(32:30):
I don't think they'll even letyou try it because the fee is more
than the actual payment.
Yeah.
So the potential disruptor iswhat if these places like PayPal
and Stripe, especially becauseStripe accepting credit card payments
and ACH transfers and ApplePay and Google Pay, what if they
(32:52):
change their payment structureso that they no longer have that
flat fee?
Then you could very easilybuild something like that into a
podcast app to send micromicrotransactions without any of
the crypto stuff that could bea huge disruptor.
They announced something like that.
I think they call it beingSherlocked because on the macOS side,
(33:14):
there was an app calledSherlock that has been replaced many
years ago by Command Spacebaron a Mac, which is the Siri shortcut
or the Quick Find toolbar thing.
And so Apple every now andthen comes out with something that
basically kills somebusiness's business model out there.
Like Apple now has thejournaling app.
(33:36):
Well, day one is probablylike, oh no.
And their business is probablysuffering because of that.
They're getting Sherlocked inthe podcasting space.
All of this crypto stuff couldget Sherlocked if one of these major
developer friendly platformslike stripe or even PayPal suddenly
changes their paymentstructure to support the microtransactions.
(33:57):
And I think that could be a.
Good thing, actually, again,if it makes it easy.
And of course, the confusingthing is there is Stripe, which is
what a lot of people, and thenthere is Strike, which with a K,
which is what I was talkingabout earlier with tying my bank
to it and that whole nine yards.
Yeah, it's the fees.
If you ever wonder, like, whydo we keep going with crypto?
(34:19):
That's why it's the fees thatmake it pretty much impossible or
worthless to do with, youknow, for lack of a better phrase,
regular money.
So it's, it's tricky, but Iwould love to see it come.
It's already back.
Like it's you can still use Fountain.
You can still use true fans.
I just, I'm looking for that,that universal place.
I guess the, the one thingthat, that I kind of scratch my head
(34:41):
with.
Like, okay, we come up with anew way.
Wherever I have my wallet, Ithink everybody's going to have to
have.
Instead of Albie hosting mywallet, I'm gonna have to have my
own wallet in something.
And that's, that's like, let'ssay I go, I know Strike with a K.
Strike sounds like they mighthave a way to receive crypto.
(35:05):
And I'm like, well, what'sgoing to stop them from having the
same thing that happened to Alby?
Like, if I get a bunch ofpeople sending in Boostograms and
all of a sudden they have athousand wallets on their know their
system and everybody gets abunch of Boostograms, what is going
to stop what worried Alby frommaking Strike with a K.
(35:27):
This is going to be their name now.
What's going to stop them fromgetting worried and going, hey, we're
going to draw some attention here.
So that's the part that Idon't know if you can future proof
that because.
And I said the guy again, whodoesn't understand crypto a whole
lot.
But I just know, like, unlessyou host your own wallet, which then
goes to, I guess maybe havingyour own server, I don't know, how
(35:49):
do we.
Can you think of anything likehow do we avoid that whole situation?
Well, I think the way thatStrike does it is that they have
the resources to be able toadhere to all of the laws and they
have certain policies andprocedures in place.
Like a big thing is calledkyc, Know your customer.
Where if you're dealing withfinancial transactions, many of these
(36:11):
companies are required to haveinformation about you, like your
identity, your address, yourSocial Security number, all of this
stuff.
So they know their customer.
And some companies just don'twant to deal with that.
And that's why they willforbid people from the United States
from using their tool isbecause they don't want to have to
(36:32):
mess with KYC requirements.
That's one thing.
There could be other aspectsto it because the whole idea of if
you are exchanging money,well, then you're in exchange.
And exchanges have to meetcertain requirements too.
An idea I had recently that Iwondered, could this be done?
(36:54):
It could.
Okay, how could it be done orhow reasonable is it for this to
be done is what if like youwere talking about the wallet situation.
And yeah, that's a Messy thing.
Like, people shouldn't have tothink about wallets at all.
It should just be, hey, I putmoney in my podcast app, I send money
to a podcaster, podcasterreceive money.
The end.
(37:15):
One way that could be done is,and I don't know the laws around
this, but what if we'll sayCast o Matic?
So what if in Cast o Matic, Iloaded up with $100 in my wallet?
In Cast o Matic wallet, in ageneral sense, but it's still dollars.
It's not cryptocurrency, it isdollars that they are holding for
(37:36):
me and I can get back wheneverI want, minus whatever transaction
fees, probably.
Then when I want to send thatto a podcaster, they then convert
it to cryptocurrency, probablyBitcoin on the Lightning Network.
They send it over to thepodcaster's quote, wallet, unquote,
(37:57):
and.
And then the podcaster'swallet instantly transfers it back
into dollars, so that it'sbeen crypto for only the minute that
it took to transfer and onlyfor the sake of the transfer.
Then you lose or gain almostno value difference in it.
So if I send a dollar, you'regoing to receive very close to a
(38:19):
dollar.
You'll receive less, ofcourse, after the fees and such that
are natural in the space.
But could something like thatbe done?
It's still, yeah, technicallythey're exchanging currencies, so
I don't know the legality ofthat, but that's one idea that could
be done with it.
The other thing, though,actually maybe a third disruptor
(38:39):
in this.
Look at what Apple did withPatreon, the patreon app in 2024,
where they were saying thatanyone who supports someone through
Patreon, through the Patreonapp on iPhone, if that's where they
created their payment, Applewants a cut, they want their 30%.
(39:01):
That's going to happen topodcast apps too.
If they accept a payment,Apple is going to at some point probably
say, hey, we need 30%.
So that could be a horribledisruptor there.
Now, maybe the loophole tothat is, is Patreon accepts the payments
on behalf of the creators andthen sends those payments minus their
(39:25):
fees to the creators.
So Patreon is receiving themoney, but in the podcast apps, maybe
it could be designed where themoney goes directly to the creator
and therefore Apple doesn'tget their cut.
Like you look at any of Theseapps, Strike, PayPal, Venmo, Cash
App, all of these things thatdo work on Apple devices and Android
(39:49):
devices and other Things yousend money directly to someone or
receive money directly fromsomeone, and there are no fees from
Apple.
And Apple is totally okay with that.
I think that's because it's adirect person to person transfer
of money, and that's why Appledoesn't need their fees.
But if it's like a companytaking lots of payments, like Patreon's
(40:13):
case, that's where Apple wantstheir cut.
So that could be a disruptor too.
Yeah, kind of like in the Albisituation, it wasn't really much
of a concern until it startedtaking off.
And that's when they're like.
And so it might be a similarsituation where Apple's not worried
about it now until they startnoticing that.
Wait a minute, there's a wholebunch of people clicking that boostogram
(40:36):
button.
What's going on with that?
Yeah, that's true.
I hadn't thought about that.
And there's for sure thereward aspect for the podcaster,
even if it's just pennies.
And the more accessible it is,I think the more people that will
do it as they realize, hey, Ican give only 5 cents an episode
automatically.
(40:56):
Sure, I can afford 5 cents.
But you look at, like, whatAdam's talked about with the booster
grand ball that he did thelive thing recently, and some of
these people that have beenfeatured on Wave Lake and such, how
they've gotten so excited atthe money they've received, not because
it's a huge amount, butbecause it is proportionally so much
(41:21):
higher than they're gettingfrom Spotify and Apple Music and
Pandora and all of thosetypical streaming places.
And like you were saying, it'sthat fan aspect too, that the people
are supporting the musiciansdirectly and that makes the people
get more excited and feel morepart of it.
It's kind of this funny cycle.
(41:41):
I talk about this a lot withpeople who use podgagement is that
once you get someone into anengagement cycle, then it starts
to.
They just get into thecircular cycle and it starts to get
them exponentially more engaged.
Because once they engage,they're going to engage more deeply.
And then when they engage moredeeply, they'll engage more deeply
(42:02):
and more and more deeply like that.
So once someone pays and givessome money directly, they'll realize,
hey, this is pretty cool.
Yeah, I'm a part of this.
I want to buy something again.
I want to support them again.
Absolutely.
Yep.
I heard that from Adam and hesaid, again, a lot of people are
just like, this is recognitionthat what I created has value.
(42:24):
And it's it's in a way, I waskind of feel like, well, it has value
even if somebody doesn'trecognize it.
It's kind of if the tree fallsin the woods kind of thing.
Like, if you make a great songand nobody hears it, does that mean
the song wasn't any good?
No, it just means nobody heard it.
But again, that's why I wantto see it work.
I want to make it easy and gothere and, you know, if you think
about just the two things wetalked about, they're both ways are
(42:46):
interacting with thepodcaster, cross app comments, building
that tribe.
And then some of those peoplemight want to click the other button
that says boost.
And both ways the podcaster isgetting direct feedback.
And then they can turn thataround to make a better show if they
can, you know, somehow enhance it.
And when you get the audienceinvolved, I still get giddy when
(43:09):
I hear somebody.
I forget what I was listening to.
Matthew Passi does a showabout podcasting tech, and Sarah
St John was on and she said heasked him, like, what podcast do
you listen to?
And she said, I listen topodcasts about podcasting.
So.
Well, you know, Dave Jackson,everybody knows that.
And instantly I was.
I got all giddy, like somebodysaid my name.
(43:29):
And so anytime a audiencemember does something, it's like,
hey, I heard you.
I've listened to you.
I like that.
Whatever it is, you alwaysfeel like it's that recognition that
makes you all giddy, giddy.
I say, what if something hadto be sacrificed in order to make
the payments work?
(43:50):
Like the streaming Satoshi'sidea of streaming based on how long
you listen.
What if that had to be sacrificed?
I mean, that's a neat featurebecause it was another kind of hack
way to figure out how farpeople listened.
Because every minute you'd seeit's, you know, Bob Jones, Bob Jones,
Bob Jones.
Then at the 23 minute mark,all of a sudden, Bob Jones is no
longer contributing.
(44:10):
You're like, oh, Bob dropped off.
What happened at the 23 minute mark?
But I also know to me, do weneed that every, you know, minute
representation?
So if that was something theylike, man, that's a lot of taxation
on the, I don't know, the appresources or whatever the technology
is.
If it was something whereevery five minutes or maybe when
(44:33):
somebody press stop, theypress play, it kind of puts them
in a little pile.
And then the minute somebodyhits pause or stop, the app somehow
then goes, oh, well, theyaccumulated 37 SATs.
Send it over to Dave.
I think I'd be perfectly finewith that.
Like, we've got streamingsatoshis that have come in from Randy
Black and Brian Insminer andSam Sethi for the future of podcasting.
(44:58):
Especially, like, we've bothcomplained to each other about the
way some of these websitesdisplay this, where it's just streaming
sat after one after another.
To see just a whole page of.
Here are all of thesestreaming sats from one person.
Because it's that minute byminute by minute.
Yeah, they need a filter onthat somehow or something to give
(45:18):
us a better idea of what we'relooking at.
Dwev Also to give him a shout out.
Steve Webb.
Yeah, the original godcasterSteve Webb.
Nicholas B58.
Not to be confused withNicholas B57.
Yeah, there was Nicholas B.
57.
There were that many otherNicholas B's, so he had to be number
58.
And 57's a jerk.
(45:38):
58's great.
So, yes, thank you to everyonewho's been sending in the satoshis
in.
However, whatever systemyou're using, if they're still coming
in, we appreciate that.
You know, as long as we'retalking about it, let's read some
booster grams.
I've got them in front.
Randy Black said, I love thecheap plugs for your own products.
(46:00):
Lol.
I jest.
Love you guys.
Another great and informative episode.
A thousand SATs from Randy Black.
Thank you, Randy.
Were there plugs in this show?
I don't remember plugs.
Do you remember plugs?
I don't.
Maybe.
Maybe there was a plug forschoolofpodcasting.com maybe.
I thought I might have heardone for podgagement, but I don't
know.
I thought that was just a coincidence.
I don't know, maybe peopleshould go to those websites to find
(46:22):
out if there's a plug.
And Brian Insprener sent 500SATs saying Dave is a silent knight.
That's Knight with a K.
Yes.
And Brian Insprener also sentA Star Trek Boost 1701 SATS saying
true fan zap from looking atsplits, filling a wallet and CDNs.
Love the buzzwords.
(46:43):
Thank you so much for thosestreaming sats.
Do you know what A SilentNight is?
No.
Actually, A Silent Night isI've been donating 1111 to no Agenda
for months, for decades, tothe point where I've now given them
at least a thousand dollars.
Oh, that makes sense.
And so I'm a silent night.
I've never claimed my.
(47:03):
I've never got my ring it'salways one of Those things, I'm like,
I'll send them a something tomake me an associate producer and
claim my knight, who I justcan't figure out what I want.
My Sir Dave, Dean of Podcasting.
I'm like, what are you cannotbe the Knight of podcasting 2.0.
That's me.
That's my title.
Yeah.
I was going to be Sir Laurenof Beef because my mom loved that
(47:24):
pun in a Bugs Bunny.
It's like, I am Sir Lauren of Beef.
I think it was Daffy Duck andsomebody took it.
I was like, oh, they took my surname.
So I have to.
And to me, I'm like, dean ofPodcasting sounds way too cheesy.
So if I come up with a goodsurname, I will come out of the shadows.
You might have one right there.
You could be surname of podcasting.
(47:45):
There you go.
Maybe.
Anybody ever send us boostsover there, Daniel?
Or are we.
That was it for now.
Thank you so much for thosebooster grams, the streaming satoshis.
I think I mentioned everyonethat's done it since our last episode
and some of those streamingsthat don't always come in, we don't
get the email notificationsfor the streaming sats.
So that's why sometimes wedon't mention those as frequently
(48:08):
as the booster grams that we receive.
But thank you so much for that support.
It means a lot.
Dave and I split it.
Dave gets the majority of itand we split those satoshis.
And it is very much appreciated.
When I get 51%, I think that'sthe majority.
I get them.
I was like, wait a minute, what?
But yeah, yeah, we do deeplyappreciate that.
(48:29):
Every little helps.
And, you know, for moreinformation, check us out@futureofpodcasting.net
I think that's going to be itfor episode 55 of the Future of Podcasting.
If you haven't followed theshow yet, go to futureofpodcasting.net
follow.
And if you're listening tothis on the way down to PodFest in
Orlando, stop by the PodPagebooth to see Dave Jackson and stop
(48:52):
by the PodGagement booth tosee me.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that's it.
Keep boosting and keep podcasting.
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