April 23, 2025 • 42 mins
Video is the hot topic, isn't it? Everyone’s buzzing about how video is creeping into the world of podcasting, and honestly, it’s hard to ignore.
Both Dave and Daniel look into this chaotic whirlpool of video versus audio, dissecting what it means for podcasters today.
They explore the undeniable truth that video isn’t just a fad; it’s here to stay, and it’s reshaping how we perceive and consume content. The discussion flits around the implications of integrating video into podcasts, from the logistical hurdles to the creative opportunities it presents.
What does a video strategy for podcasts even look like?
How do we balance the audio-first approach with the visual demands of platforms like YouTube?
They don’t shy away from the absurdity of the situation, pointing out that our beloved audio-only formats are now competing in a world where thumbnails and visual aesthetics are king.
It’s an engaging conversation that highlights the need for podcasters to rethink their content delivery methods, embracing the reality of video while still cherishing the art of audio storytelling.
Takeaways:
- Video is not just a fad; it's a staple of podcasting's future, so get used to it!
- Podcasting and video are like peanut butter and jelly—totally meant to be together.
- If you're still clinging to audio only, it's time to consider a video strategy for your podcast. Seriously, don't be that person.
- YouTube is the new podcast platform, whether you like it or not. Better learn how to play the thumbnail game!
- Embrace the chaos of video content; it’s here to stay, whether you like it or not.
- If you're thinking about starting a video podcast, make sure you actually have a plan—winging it won't cut it!
Links referenced in this episode:
- Ask a Ninja now on Youtube
- newbridgestudios.com
- podpage.com
- Podgagement
Your Hosts
Dave Jackson, host and educator at School of Podcasting™
Daniel J. Lewis, host and educator at The Audacity to Podcast® and creator of Podgagement®
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Video, video, video.
Everybody's talking about video.
How will video fit intopodcasting's future?
This is the future ofpodcasting, where we ponder what
awaits the podcasters of today.
From the school of podcasting,here's Dave Jackson.
And from the audacity topodcast, here's Daniel J.
Lewis.
(00:20):
Daniel, future of podcasting.
Episode number 57.
It's been a while.
I think it's 57, but glad tobe back on the mic, fresh back from
podcast movement, and boy, theone thing if you boy, you want to
have a good drinking game andcome out completely hammered, Everybody
take a drink.
When they said video notactually recommended.
(00:42):
Unless you.
You'll be on the floor beforeit's over.
Yeah, we heard a lot about it there.
Different points of view, andso I guess we should probably define
or whatever, what are wetalking about?
What are we not talking about tonight?
Well, I know that everybody'stalking about video and video this,
video that, video, podcasting, YouTube.
(01:04):
Right now, we're not going toget into the definition of podcasting.
I mean, we might touch on it alittle bit, for sure, but we should
do a separate episode about that.
Maybe that will be our next episode.
But I was really thinking, allright, video is here to stay.
We've known that for decades now.
People love online video, andthere is the cultural misconception,
(01:29):
slash understanding thatpodcasts include video to some degree.
So I was thinking, instead oftalking about, hey, should we be
doing video, or should wechange the definition of podcasting
to include stuff like YouTubeor anything like that, how about
just exploring, accepting thefact that video is here to stay and
(01:50):
video and podcasting are goingto be closely associated with each
other going forward and moreand more in the public eye and in
the way that these techplatforms talk about it.
Why don't we just discuss whatmight this look like?
What are some ways that we canleverage video going into the future
of podcasting, as well as somethings to think about, how to do
(02:13):
it or what considerationsthere might be stepping into this
future?
Yeah, I know for me, on mylunch now, I have a Gcast is basically
how I get my TV into my flat screen.
So that's Google's productversus the Fire TV from Amazon.
And it has a YouTube button.
(02:35):
And when I sit down, I clickthe YouTube button.
It fires up my TV, opens up my YouTube.
It still asks me, who is watching.
That drives me crazy whenthere's only one person, like, can
you not figure out that thereare no kids?
So let's just go to my account.
And I will watch YouTube onand on my lunch.
And there are times, likeright now I don't watch a lot of
(02:57):
tv and so I think there arelike two or three shows that I watch
and I think one's on Fridaynight, one's on Tuesday.
So there are a lot of timeswhen I go to my library in YouTube
TV, which is what I use to getmy, quote, regular tv, and there's
nothing there in the libraryto watch.
So so I'll just go to YouTubebecause there's always.
I'm subscribed to a bazilliondifferent things.
(03:20):
And the only thing that kindof drives me nuts, and I heard Tom
Webster talking about how it'sso easy to click on YouTube and it
just serves you and you hit play.
And I'm like, not in my houseit doesn't.
Because what drives me nuts isI will watch a long form interview
and then the next day I'll goin and it will be all the shorts
(03:41):
of the long form interviewthat I've already seen that I now
have to step over looking foranother long form thing for me to
watch.
But I've definitely, if youcompare 2025 to 2024, my YouTube
consumption has gone throughthe roof.
How about you?
Oh, I've always been watchingstuff on YouTube ever since I stopped
(04:01):
following video podcasts.
And when I say video podcasts,I do mean actual podcasts, like through
an RSS feed.
And side note, by the way, foryears I'd said I am holding onto
my subscription to Ask a Ninja.
Yes, with my dying hands,hoping that someday Ask a Ninja will
be back.
Well, did you see the news, Dave?
No, I did not.
Ask a Ninja is back.
(04:22):
Nice.
But not as a video podcast.
It's only on YouTube, whichfor a show like that, that is a video
first kind of show.
Definitely one you have towatch to really appreciate the humor
of it and really enjoy it.
And so it makes total sensefor that to be a video show.
And as a video show, it alsomakes total sense to be on YouTube.
(04:45):
Right, let's just embrace that.
But here's a question Ithought of when you were talking
about your consumption on YouTube.
Where do you go first on YouTube?
Like do you go to just theYouTube homepage?
Do you go to a channel?
Do you go to the subscriptions page?
Where's your homepage on YouTube?
Yeah, what I'm trying to thinkabout, what comes up when I pull
(05:07):
it up on my TV, because Iwatch it probably about 55% TV 45%
on a computer.
And it's usually I discoverstuff on my computer because I'm
not having to use the remotecontrol to search, which is kind
of a pain in the butt.
But it comes up to the frontpage and I almost always have to
somehow navigate to library,which leads me to like finding my
(05:31):
subscriptions.
Always seems to be there'ssome friction there that I'm like,
can't I just see the stuffthat I've already said?
I want to see this?
And so from there I look forthe little blue dots.
Who's got new content?
And then what will happen is Iwill go to the first one and if all
I see is a sea of shorts, I'llbe like, okay, ain't got time for
that next.
And I'm looking for long formcontent and I'm sure if I probably,
(05:55):
I know on a computer I saw abutton where it's like, show less
shorts.
And I was like, where is that?
On the YouTube, like app on a TV.
Because I'm not a huge shorts fan.
I have a couple people that Ionly watch their shorts, but most
of the time I'm looking forlong form stuff.
But wherever the app dumps meand then I look for subscriptions,
(06:17):
I am hardly ever going on tomy TV and searching for the guest
that wouldn't go home.
SNL skit from, you know, 78 orsomething like that.
So it sounds like you're atthe YouTube normal homepage.
Yeah, I pretty much only watchYouTube through my computer.
I've got a 27 inch iMac, soI've got a nice screen for watching
(06:39):
things for myself.
And it's very rare that my sonand I will watch something from YouTube
together.
If we're going to watchsomething together, we watch something
else.
I actually have an extensionon my browser that whenever I type
in YouTube.com, it actuallytakes me to the subscriptions page.
(06:59):
So I don't discover newcontent right there when I first
visit YouTube.
Because if I'm going toYouTube for me, usually either I'm
doing a direct search forsomething or I want to see do one
of the channels that I followactually have new content out.
I'm looking for somethingspecific and I noticed something
(07:20):
recently.
So thinking through this wholeidea of, okay, let's embrace the
idea that people are consumingmore content on YouTube.
And certainly I think you andI have both said this.
If you do any videowhatsoever, right, put it on YouTube
plus, try to be everywhereelse too.
You can be with your videoeven A video podcast, if you can
afford that and if it makes sense.
(07:40):
But something I was thinkingabout is compare the consumption
experience of YouTube to apodcast app.
And when I started thinking ofit like that, I started realizing
I have a lot of frustrationsusing YouTube to consume video shows.
Like, in a podcast app, I cansee the episode titles and I see
(08:01):
the title first.
There's none of this, oh, youknow, I really hate the competition
over the YouTube thumbnail stuff.
When I publish a video onYouTube, I don't care about the thumbnail
and which one performs better.
I know I should care more, butI just, I don't want to play that
game of, oh, let's capture aphoto of me with a certain expression
on my face.
And you know, that's not me.
(08:25):
If you see me doing that onYouTube, I don't know, maybe ask
if I'm okay and if everythingis okay in my life.
But I will probably have toembrace some of that because that's
just.
That's what works on YouTube,unfortunately, and that's why so
many people do it.
But that aside, on a podcastapp, I see the title first and foremost,
not so much the episode coverart, although that does, at a glance,
(08:48):
let me know what podcast it is.
But if there's something thatdoes not interest me, I can delete
it.
And it's no longer in mypodcast app.
It's no longer distracting me,and it's a simple swipe inside of
my app to delete it.
In Overcast, in Applepodcasts, in a bunch of apps, you
can then delete an episodethat's already downloaded or it's
(09:09):
unplayed.
Basically, whether that'sdownloaded or it would be streamed,
you can remove it from yourqueue and it's gone.
You can't easily do that on YouTube.
I did see that.
If you're on, like thesubscription page of YouTube and
you press the three dot menuon a video before you click into
(09:30):
that video, you can hide thatvideo, but that is two clicks on
every video.
And the other thing is in apodcast app, once you consume a podcast
episode, it's gone.
Yes.
You can set certain defaultsto save your episodes after you've
played them.
Some podcast apps default tothat, which really frustrates me.
(09:52):
But on YouTube, when youfinish watching a video, it stays
there.
Yes.
You might see the little redbar on it.
That helps indicate.
And I'm not sure if that red bar.
Yeah, you can see that in the app.
Sometimes a little.
I'm a little confused of whatis this YouTube extension, I think
it's called Improve YouTube.
I'm a little confused sometimes.
What is it giving me versuswhat's built into YouTube?
(10:15):
But regardless, if I'vewatched a video, it stays on that
screen.
Now, I do wonder, improveYouTube might actually have a way
to hide videos I've already seen.
But that's not the defaultexperience on YouTube.
When you go to YouTube, you'rebombarded with all of these videos.
And sometimes even if you goto the main screen on YouTube and
(10:36):
it suggests things through itssmart algorithm, sometimes it will
suggest videos you've already seen.
Yeah.
And that's a frustrating experience.
And I know I'm coming to thisfrom the podcast app perspective,
but for Those who considerYouTube a podcast app, and if we
(10:57):
were to, just for the sake ofconversation, if we were to consider
YouTube a podcast platform anda podcast app, it's not a good one.
So I know for me, I've beenplaying with different apps and I
came across Pocket Castbecause I always hear it's like in
the top five, and I didn'tthink I was going to like it because
they kind of have playlists.
You can make folders.
So I have like a podcast aboutpodcasting folder and a podcast about
(11:20):
marketing, et cetera, et cetera.
And you can go in there andclick there and it will play those
episodes.
But then they have a queue.
And so I can go into anepisode or I can go into a show like
Pod News and I say add this tothe up next queue and put it to the
top of the list.
And then Erica over atNewsworthy, I'm like, hey, put this
(11:40):
to the top.
So when I wake up in themorning, I have a couple short shows.
Sounds profit roles there too.
So I have like three shortshows there at the top of my list
and then from there it goesthrough and like you mentioned, I
can see the titles and if Idon't want them in my up next, I
can go in and remove them.
But it is pretty much I openup that app and click Play and it
(12:03):
picks up wherever I left off.
And then I believe by defaultit will go to your up next folder
or your up next list if you'renot in some sort of folder or whatever.
But it's for me, it's a pieceof cake.
I usually go to it, click onthe top thing on my up next list
and hit play and it goesthrough that.
And then once that list isgone, then I'll start digging into
(12:24):
the folders.
So not a lot of friction.
Like you mentioned, when I'mdone playing an episode, I have it
set to automatically archive it.
I can always go back and getit later.
But the only thing.
And I love the fact, I mean,they've implemented chapters and
transcripts, but there's nostreaming sats, and that's a whole
other episode.
I'm slowly grasping thereality that that's probably not
(12:46):
gonna get fixed.
I think we're like, hey, thatwas an experiment.
It kind of worked until it didn't.
And we'll come back to that later.
It's been tabled.
But as an app, that one'spretty cool.
I like that.
So I'm with you.
When I heard different peoplesay how great YouTube is, I'm like,
not.
When I use it, I'm alwaysstepping over something to find something
(13:07):
I actually want.
Now, bringing this back to theidea of podcasting's marriage with
video and some of theseplatforms and the way that YouTube
works, at least currently,this is, I think, why the thumbnail
game is so important to play.
Because when people go totheir subscription page, they see
(13:28):
a whole lot of videos, anddepending on the channels that they're
subscribed to, they might seea lot of videos that they are just
outright not interested in.
That's something else that'sinteresting for me with the consumption
on YouTube versus in a podcast.
I almost always listen toevery episode from a podcast.
That's why I can so easilyfall behind in my listening, right?
(13:49):
Because I want to listen toevery episode.
But content on YouTube, itfeels very skippable to me, like,
to completely skip a video.
And that's most likely justbecause of the kind of content, I
think on YouTube, people tendto play a little bit more toward
the algorithm, intentionallyor maybe subconsciously of making
(14:11):
more varied content.
Whereas in a podcast, it tendsto stick around the same theme and
just build on that theme.
Especially when it comes toaudio dramas, stories, comedy, anything
like that, that tends to stickwith the same theme.
But, like, there are somedevelopers that I follow on YouTube
and I'll see, they'll have avideo that I'll think, oh, that that's
(14:32):
great.
I want to watch that.
And I'll see several othervideos that they publish for maybe
a week or two, and I justthink, no, none of these interest
me.
I know it can be that way forsome podcasts, but thinking about
the way that YouTube works,and as we see this merge and this
bigger emphasis on video andpodcasting, I think it means for
podcasters, we really need toup our visual game.
(14:57):
So think about the thumbnails,thinking about even the episode artwork
for your episodes, and how canyou make those stand out?
Not just to reinforce yourbranding that is an important part
of it, but to make yourpodcast compelling from the visual.
Because imagine this.
Currently most of the podcastapps focus on the title, and the
(15:22):
thumbnail is very small nextto the title or above the title until
you tap into the episode.
Some podcast apps, I thinkpocketcast has this view to it where
you can browse your episodeswith a bigger emphasis on the episode
artwork.
Yep.
So I think as podcasters, weneed to realize that as podcasting
(15:45):
becomes more visual and visualaspects are part of it, we need to
focus on making our visualelements compelling and communicating
better what the episode is about.
Yeah.
The other thing you have to.
If you decide, hey, I'm goingto do video.
I was listening to a show thatI've listened to for years, and I
did notice that his audio wasa little just slightly off.
(16:08):
Now I'm listening through theears of a podcaster, but I was like,
he sounds like he's not asclose to the microphone as he usually
is.
And then about halfwaythrough, he said, oh, and you'll
see right here where thenumbers are such and such.
And I was like, oh, that's whyhis audio isn't as good.
He's probably using adifferent mic, it's out of the shot
kind of thing.
(16:28):
And I went, you know what?
I like this show.
Maybe this will be one of myYouTube shows if he's going to start
doing visual stuff.
Kind of like when radio showsdo a lot of visual stuff, that always
drives me nuts.
The morning guy in Clevelanddoes a lot of visual stuff.
And I'm like, I'm listening to you.
And so I went to his YouTubechannel and I'm looking for the.
(16:49):
I looked down at my podcastapp, I got the title, and I just
quickly went to his YouTubechannel expecting.
Cause this was a new episodefor the video to be right there for
me to click on.
I'm like, oh, I'll justrewatch this.
And you know, et cetera.
And I couldn't find.
It wasn't.
I don't know if it wasn'tthere, but I know I clicked around
on the videos and I was like,oh, wait a minute, that's a playlist.
(17:10):
I just want to go to videosand go to recent.
And I couldn't find it.
And I was like, oh, maybe hejust started doing this.
And because you can kind oftweak your YouTube page when people
go to it, what people seefirst, et cetera, et cetera.
So if you're going to dovideo, make sure your, your latest
videos are easy to find.
Because I was kind of like inthe end, I didn't listen to, I didn't
(17:31):
listen or watch.
I was like, well, I'm notgetting anything out of the audio
and I can't find the video.
And I just went to the next podcast.
So that's something to keep in mind.
A try not to do the.
Oh, you'll see right herewhere Daniel is holding up this thing.
No, you know, it's not.
Granted if you're doing a showabout woodworking or something, yeah,
that's a visual kind of videofirst type thing.
(17:54):
But if you can try to avoidany kind of video reference, just
be sure to like, oh, I'mholding up this thing and it's this
and that.
And I know for me, I do a showcalled the, the podcast review show
where we used to reviewsomebody's website and we always
made very sure to say verydescriptive of what we're doing.
We like that you have a lot ofwhite space and et cetera, et cetera.
(18:17):
But in the end I thought, youknow what we need to do because we
could drive traffic to ourwebsite and say, if you'd like to
see the visual audit of thewebsite, we've got a video for it
on our website.
Go and watch that.
And that would drive trafficto the website.
But just keep that in mind asyou're doing video, you kind of have
to upfront, I think, answerthe question and am I audio or video
(18:38):
first?
And in some of thesefrustrations with how YouTube works
and what YouTube does worksreally well for YouTube.
So yeah, don't think that it'sa horrible thing that they're doing.
It's a different style ofpresenting content.
And I think because peopletraditionally have consumed content
differently from YouTube,compare that to other video streaming
(19:01):
platforms like Apple TV plusNetflix, Amazon prime, where it's
very much, you're watchingthis show.
Would you like to resume thisshow that you're watching?
Watch the next episode of the show.
YouTube doesn't work that same way.
They'll just show you all the videos.
But there is something that Ithink we could take from this approach.
Even if you're focused only onaudio, think about what YouTube is
(19:25):
doing with their discoverything where if you go to a channel
frequently, they will show themost popular videos first to new
people visiting that channeland they'll show if you made a special
Channel welcome video ortrailer, whatever they call it now,
they show that up front too.
So people can click on that tosee whatever that welcome video is.
(19:47):
And they'll see probably yourmost popular videos, as well as some
playlists.
What if you could put thatsame kind of thing in your website,
either as your homepage or assome kind of getting started page
where you show your bestepisodes, especially show if you've
got a trailer, maybe put thatup front as well as part of your
(20:09):
introduction to the show forpeople coming to your site, but then
surface some of that best content.
And that can be pretty easy todo with almost any publishing system
where just look at your stats,see which episodes were downloaded
the most or played the most.
Or if you've got YouTubevideos of your content, see which
(20:30):
of them were watched the most,both the straight plays as well as
the video itself.
People watched the majority ofthe video and didn't abandon the
video.
Look also at engagement, whatepisodes inspired the most comments
or the most feedback oranything like that, and then feature
those episodes prominently onyour site as a way to better get
(20:53):
people into your content more deeply.
Especially for the podcaststhat are not serial, and I don't
mean serial like the podcastserial, but serialized content.
If people don't have to startat a specific episode, then don't
worry about where they start.
Point them to your bestcontent because you want to get them
(21:14):
hooked in.
And that's the way YouTubeworks, and it works really well at
that.
Yeah, that's one of thethings, like you said, you can go
into your media host orwhatever to see, but the whole point
is when somebody comes to yourwebsite, you want to make a great
first impression.
So you want to have adescription or something so they
don't have to scratch theirhead and go, what is this about?
(21:36):
But Yeah, I mean, WordPress,there's categories, there's plugins.
With PodPage, we have acreatively named thing called Featured
Episodes where you simply justgo in and say, this is featured.
And then you can pick whereyou want that to show up on the front
page.
And it just makes sensebecause the goal is for them to get
the best content.
So they're like, wow, this isreally good.
(21:56):
So let's say you had, I don'tknow, three episodes on the front
page, and they kind of werejust clicking around and every one
they're like, oh, this sounds good.
Oh, this is wow.
I want to hear more about this.
They're also hopefullysomewhere on your website a button
that says follow that they cango follow on Apple or Spotify or
Pocket Casts or podcast guruor whatever.
(22:16):
But that's the whole goal iswe want them to follow the show.
And you get them to follow theshow by going, look at the awesome
things that, you know, arehere on our show.
So that just makes total sense.
That's actually Brendan fromPodPage was supposed to talk at Podcast
Movement Evolutions.
Unfortunately, his entirefamily got wiped out.
And so I kind of took.
(22:37):
We should clarify there.
They were just sick.
Sick.
They didn't die.
There was no terrorist attack.
No.
But when you have, you know,little ones, like very little ones
sick, and mom and dad, it'slike, yeah, time for me to step in.
He's like, I'm not going tomake it.
And part of his presentationwas find out what's working.
And you can do that through,you know, your media host through
(22:59):
Apple Podcasts has theirdashboard, Spotify has their dashboard.
There's Google Analytics.
There's, you know, a audience survey.
That's never a bad idea.
Find out what's working andput that on your front page.
And I had somebody once said,yeah, but won't that then make the
show like an episode that'salready one of your top listen to.
(23:20):
Isn't that kind of likefeeding the rich?
Like, it's already popular.
You're just gonna make it more popular.
And I'm like, yeah, but it'syour best stuff.
You know what I mean?
Like, you don't want to, like,oh, well, I'm gonna put this new
episode up because it onlyhas, you know, 10 downloads.
I'm like, yeah, maybe there'sa reason it only has 10 downloads.
So put your best foot forward.
If you go to a restaurant andlook at their menu frequently, they
(23:42):
will highlight, this is ourmost popular dish.
Yeah.
And yes, you could get aconspiracy theory going that maybe
it's their.
They say it's their mostpopular dish because that's the one
that's easiest for them to make.
And that's what they want youto think is their most popular dish.
But usually it is a unique dish.
And I love.
Whenever I go to a restaurant,I love asking them, what is your
(24:02):
unique dish?
What are you known for here?
Because that's what I wantedto try.
I want to try something unique.
But talking about this thingof what performs well and exponentially
building on that performance.
I did this also when I wasbuilding my email list years ago,
where for, I think, twomonths, I was doing an experiment
of trying to make lead magnetsopt in Incentives, bonuses, they're
(24:27):
called different things, butsomething that I offer as an incentive
for people to join my email list.
And I tried to make a new onefor every episode of my podcast or
maybe every other episode.
I did this for a couple ofmonths and one in particular really
stood out that a lot of peoplesubscribed to my emails and downloaded
this specific opt in incentivethat I had.
(24:48):
So I decided I'm going to takethat one and make that something
that's promoted on my website.
Ethically.
I don't blast you with a popup the first time you get to my site,
but if you browse around or ifyou're intending to leave from the
site, one of those thingswhere then I pop up a thing that
says, hey, before you go, youmight like this resource.
And that worked for me andthat resource and that approach that
(25:11):
I took for only a couple ofmonths skyrocketed the growth of
my email newsletter list tothe point that I have more email
subscribers than I havepodcast subscribers, which is a really
interesting flip to be in that position.
But think of what that coulddo for your podcast too.
Just like Dave was saying,maybe your latest episode isn't what
(25:33):
you should be promoting at thetop of your homepage.
Maybe it should be somethingelse, get people really hooked so
then the other things you talkabout will make more sense.
Well, to piggyback on that, I,when I read this, I'm like, oh, that
can't work.
That's just too simple.
So I went into GoogleAnalytics to see what were my top
10 pages that brought in traffic.
(25:55):
Smart.
And I was like, okay.
And then I made a lead magnetfor all of those.
Oh, brilliant.
And I was amazed at how my, mylist grew.
And the one was how to take aphone call on a podcast.
And I was like, when Was this made?
1977.
I'm like, what the heck?
And so all I did was I made alittle box there that said, would
(26:16):
you like this post as a PDF?
Because I was like, I don'tknow what I'm going to make for this.
And so for about a month and ahalf it just said, would you like
this post as a PDF?
And people would sign up toget it.
And I was like, you do knowyou can bookmark this, right?
And I later went back and kindof made a here's how to take phone
calls.
But really it was like, you'renot going to take phone calls on
a show.
Here's, you know, use chat anduse this and that.
(26:38):
But the basic idea of find outwhere you're getting the most traffic
and put your pop up orwhatever you want in front of that.
And I was really amazed at howwell that works.
So.
And you can use AI to helpwith this too.
When you discover thosethings, you can give it the transcript
or the page or the article,whatever it is, whatever the content
is.
You can give an AI this kindof content and you can ask an AI
(26:59):
give me some ideas ofsomething I can make from this as
a downloadable resource togive away or give me some ideas of
how to promote this on mywebsite to new people.
Because maybe it's an episodethat's not necessarily like an intro
or a necessarily good firstepisode to jump into your podcast,
(27:20):
but because it's your mostpopular, you could then ask AI, tell
me how could I better promotethis to first time listeners?
Yeah, absolutely.
It's basically the same content.
If you're just talking headvideos, you can go in and sort the
videos by popularity and thensort the, you know, your media hosts
(27:42):
compare notes to kind of, youwant to cross reference if you want
a second opinion on what's thebest stuff.
If you're seeing that oneepisode both on video and audio is
performing well, then it's apretty good indicator that that's
really good content.
And so that's something youcan do.
The thing I see sometimes thatI giggle at is somebody will start
(28:03):
an audio podcast.
They're like, I'm ready totake my show to the next level.
So to grow my audio podcast,I'm going to start a video channel.
And that's kind of likesaying, you know, I have a bunch
of people that love to listento my show, so I'm going to start.
Or somebody was really into TVand you're like, okay, I'm going
to start a book club.
(28:24):
Well, these people like to watch.
And now you're trying to getthem to read.
I have found, at least in mytravels, getting people to swap one
platform to another unlessthere's a reason to.
I don't know that that alwaysworks, but it's always like, okay,
I started the video platformto try to drive traffic to the audio
(28:45):
platform.
And then you have to ask, butwhat are you going to do to grow
the video platform?
And that's where you have to learn.
Like you were mentioningthumbnails and titles.
That's where you have to learnthe algorithm.
And I always kind of joke whenI hear people say, but there is no
discovery, there's nodiscovery tool in audio podcast,
you know, and I'm like, whatdo you mean?
They're like, well, you know,something that would know you and
(29:07):
know what you like and thenrecommend things that it thinks you
would like.
And I go, well, there is oneof those in audio podcast.
Mine is called Doug.
It's my brother, and he knowswhat I like.
He's known me my entire life.
And there's a movie out now, Ithink it's called so you killed a
unicorn.
It's a dark comedy, and heknows I love dark comedy.
(29:28):
And it's got Paul Rudd and abunch of really good people in it.
He's like, dude, that has gotto be right up your alley.
So I went and saw it, and itwas right up my alley.
You know, it's word of mouth,but it's still kind of doing the
same thing an algorithm does,which is recommend things based on
its knowledge of you, you know.
So as much as I hear that allthe time, like, oh, there's no discovery
in podcasting, I'm like, well,there's word of mouth and there's
(29:51):
a study I think it's from.
It's getting a little old inthe tooth.
2019, Jacobs Media said thatbasically around 70% of podcasts
are discovered via word of mouth.
So I'm like, we have word ofmouth in audio, and that's working,
at least for me, working justas good as an algorithm and video.
And I think we should have awhole episode talking about recommendations,
(30:13):
especially as they come intoplay more and more in podcasting.
So we'll certainly do that atsome point.
But I tying this intosomething you were saying, I want
to quote from someone.
I recently spoke at theNational Religious Broadcasters,
and one of the other panelistswas Casey Helmick from newbridgestudios.com
(30:33):
and he said something very good.
I love the exact way that hesaid this.
He said podcasters will almostcertainly need a video strategy.
And I love that he didn't saypodcasters need to be making videos
or they need to make videos,video episodes, or they need to be
on YouTube or they need to beusing shorts.
(30:54):
What he said is a video strategy.
And that I think is perfect.
Yes, we should have a videostrategy, whatever that is.
Maybe for you, that's postingfull videos on YouTube of your episodes.
Maybe it's only posting shorts.
Maybe it's making separatevideo content.
Maybe it's audiograms.
That hasn't really worked toowell in the last few years, but maybe.
(31:16):
Maybe that's what you want to try.
The main point is have aStrategy to use video in some way
for your podcast.
It could even be livestreaming, especially with what we've
got in podcasting 2.0 being developed.
And even the podcast standardsproject is talking about standardizing
some live streaming technologyfor video in podcasting apps using
(31:38):
HLS streaming, which I knowthat's redundant, but using HLS and
some other technology andsuch, but standardizing that so that
all the podcast apps, thepodcasting 2.0 apps that is, could
get live video into those apps.
So think about your videostrategy and it doesn't have to be
(31:59):
full episodes, but do come upwith a strategy for video.
Yeah.
The thing that gets me excitedabout because I know the one time
I asked you what does it taketo do a live stream?
And on a.
I think it was like step 22that I finally went nevermind.
Because it was.
It's like, oh, it's easy, justdo this.
(32:19):
But if you think about it,what's the one thing that radio has
over podcasting?
And in theory, because a lotof it's especially at night's pre
programmed, but they are live.
Like they can do live sportsand things like that.
And if podcasting could bringin either live audio and video, that
would be different.
I mean, I, I've done that inthe past.
(32:41):
Just I w.
I forget I was at a Purduegame looking at my stepson and mom
had made the trip and so shewanted to see the band.
So I just fired up a YouTubelive stream and was like, here it
is.
It was, you know, to her andyou know, if we could do something
like that, all sorts of local stuff.
I know right now Adam's reallyinto hyper local stuff, but if you
(33:05):
could blast the local footballgame as you do the play by play or
whatever, that would be really interesting.
So I'll be interested to see.
It's, it's.
I was happy to see thestandards project is not dead.
They're moving ahead.
And if we can, you know, ifthat's what we want to focus on,
that's great.
I do a live show every Saturday.
And probably the reason Istill do a live show is because it's.
(33:28):
The number of people that showup live is minuscule compared to
the people that download.
But it's the same 20 to 30people every Saturday.
And it's instant feedback.
That's.
It's really addicting when youstart, you know, asking your audience
and they answer you right there.
You're like, oh, well, this isworth getting up at 10:30 in the
morning.
(33:49):
That's my Saturday morning cartoons.
Yeah, that's it.
But I think it's like yousaid, video's not going away.
It's the distant cousin of podcasting.
And some people like to read,some people like to listen, and some
people like to watch.
And if your numbers are kindof flat on the audio side and you've
got the time and you've gotthe budget and you have the desire
(34:11):
to do video, by all means.
I did run into one person thatdecided because they heard that Spotify
was all that in a bag of chipsand video, that they weren't going
to put their video on YouTube,only on Spotify.
And I was like, no, if you gotvideo, it's more like YouTube first,
and then if you have time,throw it on Spotify.
I have, I don't know, probably15 videos on Spotify, and I don't
(34:37):
know that any of them havedouble digits.
I don't promote it.
But as much as they're like,oh, people are consuming massive
amounts of video, for me, asurvey of one, no, they're not.
Now, I want to give a shoutout to a great article by Tommy Serafinsky,
and we'll have the link tothis in the notes.
He shared this on X recently,and I loved his approach to this.
(34:59):
The title of the article isTime to Flip the Script on Video
Podcasting.
And while we've been talking alot about video in here, I love his
approach to this.
And here's a brief quote fromhis article.
As podcasters, especiallythose of us who aren't stoked about
the push towards videopodcasting, we should not only keep
highlighting the benefits ofaudio podcasting, but we ought to
(35:22):
flip the narrative anddemonstrate that much content presented
as video would work as well oreven better as an audio podcast.
And I love that he's takingthat approach.
And I've seen that many timeswhere I'll find a video on YouTube.
And I do have that thought of,oh, this should have been an audio
podcast.
Just like, you know, the wholething of going to a meeting at work,
(35:45):
and it's like, oh, this shouldhave been an email.
Yeah, well, there are plentyof videos out there and a lot of
people who are thinking, oh, Ineed to do video, or even getting
enraptured in the idea of Ishould only be doing video.
Don't forget about audio.
Certainly audio is so muchmore accessible and reachable in
(36:05):
many places, certainly moreconsumable in many places.
So in the whole push towardvideo, often still have that question
in your mind of, would thisactually Be better as audio.
Yeah.
I mean, let's prove that point.
Let's have fun with stats,which always go over gangbusters
with an audio show.
But when I did my research, itwas 2 point.
(36:27):
We'll say 2.5 billion viewerson YouTube and 65.3 million creators.
And then I compared that to audio.
That's 202 million listenersmonthly and then 358,000 active creators.
And if you do the math onthat, it means there are 564.
(36:50):
If we're looking at the audioside, 564 listeners for every creator,
where there's only 38 viewerson YouTube, even though the numbers
are huge, there's actuallymore per creator on the audio side.
And already people are drivingoff the road or because they're falling
asleep, because their numbers.
But that's an example ofsomething that, like, anytime I'm
(37:14):
doing an episode in the futureand there's a lot of stats, and I
was like, so how I'm going tomake that less boring?
Even though it's, you know,it's like, wow, look, stats.
I didn't know that.
It's up, it's down, it'ssideways, whatever it is.
But I'm going to try to weavea story into the numbers, because
just numbers, you can get awaywith that on video, I think a lot
easier than if it's justaudio, because numbers don't do much
(37:38):
for the theater of the mindunless you Somehow say, picture 17
bushels of apples.
And, you know, you have to dosomething to trigger the theater
of the mind.
So absolutely, some thingswork better.
RuPaul's Drag Race is a veryvisual show where.
Ask the podcast coach.
Not really.
Right.
Two guys, talking heads, somegraphics, nothing too crazy.
(38:01):
One of my favorite lines, AdamCurry said, not every book needs
to be a movie.
I love that line.
But then you also look at.
I had a list.
I know Justin Bieber is on there.
Ariana Grande, who's now inWas just in Wicked.
Kate Upton, who's a model.
Ed Sheeran, who's a pop guy.
Arnel Pineda, if you've neverheard of that, that's the lead singer
(38:22):
of Journey.
All these people arediscovered on YouTube.
So, yes, every book doesn'tneed to be a movie.
But on the other hand, thereare people.
Now, again, if you do the mathon that, okay, how many people have
actually been discovered onYouTube versus how many actual YouTube
videos there are?
That might be one of thosewhere it's like you have a better
(38:43):
chance of being struck byLightning after you won the lottery
kind of thing of being discovered.
I think tying this alltogether, we're seeing waves of interest
in video and audio.
And I wouldn't be surprised ifa few years from now, audio only
is rediscovered and has thisbig coming back and people are like,
(39:03):
you know, I'm so tied up withall of these videos, but I just discovered
I can listen to this YouTubeshow in audio and I can download
it and I don't have to streamit, I don't have to watch it.
I don't have to have YouTubered premium plus, double plus, good.
I can just listen to it.
So we might see a renaissanceof audio again.
(39:25):
Because think about video.
Like in the early days, videopodcasting was really popular because
video podcasting predates YouTube.
So back in the early days,like 2005, 2004, video podcasts were
the only way to distributeindependent video on the Internet.
And so it got really big back then.
(39:45):
But then YouTube stole theshow and then audio podcasting was
growing at the same time, andhits like serial and other shows
were audio only and stillaudio only.
And then YouTube.
Then I think because ofmisconceptions and confusions, though,
YouTube is stealing the show again.
But at some point it's goingto come back around to audio, I think,
(40:07):
and it's just going to waveback and forth and we can ride these
waves.
It doesn't mean that we haveto hold the line and be only audio
or it doesn't mean we have tojump into video or stay only video.
But we can leverage thesethings right now to accomplish some
cool things, reach people indifferent places for sure.
(40:29):
And the big thing is, I thinkwe're always going to see video and
audio podcasting mixedtogether and people wanting both
ways.
And as much as we can, try tomeet the audience where they are
and where they will be.
Absolutely.
I think my last point that Ialways say anytime we talk about
(40:51):
video, if you don't want to dovideo, you don't have to.
I'm kind of with Daniel thatyou probably should.
But if you don't have thetime, the budget, or the desire,
you don't have to.
Because so many people like.
But everybody says I have to.
Mike.
No, that's YouTube says youhave to.
So.
But absolutely.
We want to thank everybodywho's been streaming sats to us that's
(41:15):
still going on.
If you're still doing that,that means you're hardcore.
We appreciate that.
I wanted to grab.
There's a sound bite I want ofAdam from like I don't know, eight
or nine episodes ago where hegoes, we still need wallets.
I just want to like, hey.
But we'll see.
Thanks to Sam Sethi.
Sam Sethi was.
The guy was like, hey, like,when are you guys coming back?
(41:39):
Well, and at Podcast MovementEvolutions, I saw James Kridlin walking
around with his laptop in onehand, holding a microphone in the
other, and he's recording PodNews Weekly Review.
And then he comes up to meright as I'm chewing on some candy
or something, and he wants tobriefly interview me.
So I quickly glance at hisscreen to see was he recording?
(42:00):
And yeah, it was Pod NewsWeekly Review.
And he asked me, when is thefuture of podcasting coming back?
And I told him, we're going torecord an episode after Podcast Movement
Evolution.
So by the time you're hearingthis, that was two weeks ago.
But, yes, we are back to.
We've got a list of topicsthat we want to discuss for future
episodes.
So send us your feedback.
Send us those booster grams.
(42:21):
You know, attach money to your feedback.
We love feedback when it'sattached with money.
Absolutely.
So that's going to do it forthis episode of the Future of Podcasting.
Keep boosting and keep podcasting.
Video, video, video.
Everybody's talking about video.
How will video fit intopodcasting's future?
This is the future ofpodcasting, where we ponder what
awaits the podcasters of today.
From the school of podcasting,here's Dave Jackson.
And from the audacity topodcast, here's Daniel J.
Lewis.
(00:20):
Daniel, future of podcasting.
Episode number 57.
It's been a while.
I think it's 57, but glad tobe back on the mic, fresh back from
podcast movement, and boy, theone thing if you boy, you want to
have a good drinking game andcome out completely hammered, Everybody
take a drink.
When they said video notactually recommended.
(00:42):
Unless you.
You'll be on the floor beforeit's over.
Yeah, we heard a lot about it there.
Different points of view, andso I guess we should probably define
or whatever, what are wetalking about?
What are we not talking about tonight?
Well, I know that everybody'stalking about video and video this,
video that, video, podcasting, YouTube.
(01:04):
Right now, we're not going toget into the definition of podcasting.
I mean, we might touch on it alittle bit, for sure, but we should
do a separate episode about that.
Maybe that will be our next episode.
But I was really thinking, allright, video is here to stay.
We've known that for decades now.
People love online video, andthere is the cultural misconception,
(01:29):
slash understanding thatpodcasts include video to some degree.
So I was thinking, instead oftalking about, hey, should we be
doing video, or should wechange the definition of podcasting
to include stuff like YouTubeor anything like that, how about
just exploring, accepting thefact that video is here to stay and
(01:50):
video and podcasting are goingto be closely associated with each
other going forward and moreand more in the public eye and in
the way that these techplatforms talk about it.
Why don't we just discuss whatmight this look like?
What are some ways that we canleverage video going into the future
of podcasting, as well as somethings to think about, how to do
(02:13):
it or what considerationsthere might be stepping into this
future?
Yeah, I know for me, on mylunch now, I have a Gcast is basically
how I get my TV into my flat screen.
So that's Google's productversus the Fire TV from Amazon.
And it has a YouTube button.
(02:35):
And when I sit down, I clickthe YouTube button.
It fires up my TV, opens up my YouTube.
It still asks me, who is watching.
That drives me crazy whenthere's only one person, like, can
you not figure out that thereare no kids?
So let's just go to my account.
And I will watch YouTube onand on my lunch.
And there are times, likeright now I don't watch a lot of
(02:57):
tv and so I think there arelike two or three shows that I watch
and I think one's on Fridaynight, one's on Tuesday.
So there are a lot of timeswhen I go to my library in YouTube
TV, which is what I use to getmy, quote, regular tv, and there's
nothing there in the libraryto watch.
So so I'll just go to YouTubebecause there's always.
I'm subscribed to a bazilliondifferent things.
(03:20):
And the only thing that kindof drives me nuts, and I heard Tom
Webster talking about how it'sso easy to click on YouTube and it
just serves you and you hit play.
And I'm like, not in my houseit doesn't.
Because what drives me nuts isI will watch a long form interview
and then the next day I'll goin and it will be all the shorts
(03:41):
of the long form interviewthat I've already seen that I now
have to step over looking foranother long form thing for me to
watch.
But I've definitely, if youcompare 2025 to 2024, my YouTube
consumption has gone throughthe roof.
How about you?
Oh, I've always been watchingstuff on YouTube ever since I stopped
(04:01):
following video podcasts.
And when I say video podcasts,I do mean actual podcasts, like through
an RSS feed.
And side note, by the way, foryears I'd said I am holding onto
my subscription to Ask a Ninja.
Yes, with my dying hands,hoping that someday Ask a Ninja will
be back.
Well, did you see the news, Dave?
No, I did not.
Ask a Ninja is back.
(04:22):
Nice.
But not as a video podcast.
It's only on YouTube, whichfor a show like that, that is a video
first kind of show.
Definitely one you have towatch to really appreciate the humor
of it and really enjoy it.
And so it makes total sensefor that to be a video show.
And as a video show, it alsomakes total sense to be on YouTube.
(04:45):
Right, let's just embrace that.
But here's a question Ithought of when you were talking
about your consumption on YouTube.
Where do you go first on YouTube?
Like do you go to just theYouTube homepage?
Do you go to a channel?
Do you go to the subscriptions page?
Where's your homepage on YouTube?
Yeah, what I'm trying to thinkabout, what comes up when I pull
(05:07):
it up on my TV, because Iwatch it probably about 55% TV 45%
on a computer.
And it's usually I discoverstuff on my computer because I'm
not having to use the remotecontrol to search, which is kind
of a pain in the butt.
But it comes up to the frontpage and I almost always have to
somehow navigate to library,which leads me to like finding my
(05:31):
subscriptions.
Always seems to be there'ssome friction there that I'm like,
can't I just see the stuffthat I've already said?
I want to see this?
And so from there I look forthe little blue dots.
Who's got new content?
And then what will happen is Iwill go to the first one and if all
I see is a sea of shorts, I'llbe like, okay, ain't got time for
that next.
And I'm looking for long formcontent and I'm sure if I probably,
(05:55):
I know on a computer I saw abutton where it's like, show less
shorts.
And I was like, where is that?
On the YouTube, like app on a TV.
Because I'm not a huge shorts fan.
I have a couple people that Ionly watch their shorts, but most
of the time I'm looking forlong form stuff.
But wherever the app dumps meand then I look for subscriptions,
(06:17):
I am hardly ever going on tomy TV and searching for the guest
that wouldn't go home.
SNL skit from, you know, 78 orsomething like that.
So it sounds like you're atthe YouTube normal homepage.
Yeah, I pretty much only watchYouTube through my computer.
I've got a 27 inch iMac, soI've got a nice screen for watching
(06:39):
things for myself.
And it's very rare that my sonand I will watch something from YouTube
together.
If we're going to watchsomething together, we watch something
else.
I actually have an extensionon my browser that whenever I type
in YouTube.com, it actuallytakes me to the subscriptions page.
(06:59):
So I don't discover newcontent right there when I first
visit YouTube.
Because if I'm going toYouTube for me, usually either I'm
doing a direct search forsomething or I want to see do one
of the channels that I followactually have new content out.
I'm looking for somethingspecific and I noticed something
(07:20):
recently.
So thinking through this wholeidea of, okay, let's embrace the
idea that people are consumingmore content on YouTube.
And certainly I think you andI have both said this.
If you do any videowhatsoever, right, put it on YouTube
plus, try to be everywhereelse too.
You can be with your videoeven A video podcast, if you can
afford that and if it makes sense.
(07:40):
But something I was thinkingabout is compare the consumption
experience of YouTube to apodcast app.
And when I started thinking ofit like that, I started realizing
I have a lot of frustrationsusing YouTube to consume video shows.
Like, in a podcast app, I cansee the episode titles and I see
(08:01):
the title first.
There's none of this, oh, youknow, I really hate the competition
over the YouTube thumbnail stuff.
When I publish a video onYouTube, I don't care about the thumbnail
and which one performs better.
I know I should care more, butI just, I don't want to play that
game of, oh, let's capture aphoto of me with a certain expression
on my face.
And you know, that's not me.
(08:25):
If you see me doing that onYouTube, I don't know, maybe ask
if I'm okay and if everythingis okay in my life.
But I will probably have toembrace some of that because that's
just.
That's what works on YouTube,unfortunately, and that's why so
many people do it.
But that aside, on a podcastapp, I see the title first and foremost,
not so much the episode coverart, although that does, at a glance,
(08:48):
let me know what podcast it is.
But if there's something thatdoes not interest me, I can delete
it.
And it's no longer in mypodcast app.
It's no longer distracting me,and it's a simple swipe inside of
my app to delete it.
In Overcast, in Applepodcasts, in a bunch of apps, you
can then delete an episodethat's already downloaded or it's
(09:09):
unplayed.
Basically, whether that'sdownloaded or it would be streamed,
you can remove it from yourqueue and it's gone.
You can't easily do that on YouTube.
I did see that.
If you're on, like thesubscription page of YouTube and
you press the three dot menuon a video before you click into
(09:30):
that video, you can hide thatvideo, but that is two clicks on
every video.
And the other thing is in apodcast app, once you consume a podcast
episode, it's gone.
Yes.
You can set certain defaultsto save your episodes after you've
played them.
Some podcast apps default tothat, which really frustrates me.
(09:52):
But on YouTube, when youfinish watching a video, it stays
there.
Yes.
You might see the little redbar on it.
That helps indicate.
And I'm not sure if that red bar.
Yeah, you can see that in the app.
Sometimes a little.
I'm a little confused of whatis this YouTube extension, I think
it's called Improve YouTube.
I'm a little confused sometimes.
What is it giving me versuswhat's built into YouTube?
(10:15):
But regardless, if I'vewatched a video, it stays on that
screen.
Now, I do wonder, improveYouTube might actually have a way
to hide videos I've already seen.
But that's not the defaultexperience on YouTube.
When you go to YouTube, you'rebombarded with all of these videos.
And sometimes even if you goto the main screen on YouTube and
(10:36):
it suggests things through itssmart algorithm, sometimes it will
suggest videos you've already seen.
Yeah.
And that's a frustrating experience.
And I know I'm coming to thisfrom the podcast app perspective,
but for Those who considerYouTube a podcast app, and if we
(10:57):
were to, just for the sake ofconversation, if we were to consider
YouTube a podcast platform anda podcast app, it's not a good one.
So I know for me, I've beenplaying with different apps and I
came across Pocket Castbecause I always hear it's like in
the top five, and I didn'tthink I was going to like it because
they kind of have playlists.
You can make folders.
So I have like a podcast aboutpodcasting folder and a podcast about
(11:20):
marketing, et cetera, et cetera.
And you can go in there andclick there and it will play those
episodes.
But then they have a queue.
And so I can go into anepisode or I can go into a show like
Pod News and I say add this tothe up next queue and put it to the
top of the list.
And then Erica over atNewsworthy, I'm like, hey, put this
(11:40):
to the top.
So when I wake up in themorning, I have a couple short shows.
Sounds profit roles there too.
So I have like three shortshows there at the top of my list
and then from there it goesthrough and like you mentioned, I
can see the titles and if Idon't want them in my up next, I
can go in and remove them.
But it is pretty much I openup that app and click Play and it
(12:03):
picks up wherever I left off.
And then I believe by defaultit will go to your up next folder
or your up next list if you'renot in some sort of folder or whatever.
But it's for me, it's a pieceof cake.
I usually go to it, click onthe top thing on my up next list
and hit play and it goesthrough that.
And then once that list isgone, then I'll start digging into
(12:24):
the folders.
So not a lot of friction.
Like you mentioned, when I'mdone playing an episode, I have it
set to automatically archive it.
I can always go back and getit later.
But the only thing.
And I love the fact, I mean,they've implemented chapters and
transcripts, but there's nostreaming sats, and that's a whole
other episode.
I'm slowly grasping thereality that that's probably not
(12:46):
gonna get fixed.
I think we're like, hey, thatwas an experiment.
It kind of worked until it didn't.
And we'll come back to that later.
It's been tabled.
But as an app, that one'spretty cool.
I like that.
So I'm with you.
When I heard different peoplesay how great YouTube is, I'm like,
not.
When I use it, I'm alwaysstepping over something to find something
(13:07):
I actually want.
Now, bringing this back to theidea of podcasting's marriage with
video and some of theseplatforms and the way that YouTube
works, at least currently,this is, I think, why the thumbnail
game is so important to play.
Because when people go totheir subscription page, they see
(13:28):
a whole lot of videos, anddepending on the channels that they're
subscribed to, they might seea lot of videos that they are just
outright not interested in.
That's something else that'sinteresting for me with the consumption
on YouTube versus in a podcast.
I almost always listen toevery episode from a podcast.
That's why I can so easilyfall behind in my listening, right?
(13:49):
Because I want to listen toevery episode.
But content on YouTube, itfeels very skippable to me, like,
to completely skip a video.
And that's most likely justbecause of the kind of content, I
think on YouTube, people tendto play a little bit more toward
the algorithm, intentionallyor maybe subconsciously of making
(14:11):
more varied content.
Whereas in a podcast, it tendsto stick around the same theme and
just build on that theme.
Especially when it comes toaudio dramas, stories, comedy, anything
like that, that tends to stickwith the same theme.
But, like, there are somedevelopers that I follow on YouTube
and I'll see, they'll have avideo that I'll think, oh, that that's
(14:32):
great.
I want to watch that.
And I'll see several othervideos that they publish for maybe
a week or two, and I justthink, no, none of these interest
me.
I know it can be that way forsome podcasts, but thinking about
the way that YouTube works,and as we see this merge and this
bigger emphasis on video andpodcasting, I think it means for
podcasters, we really need toup our visual game.
(14:57):
So think about the thumbnails,thinking about even the episode artwork
for your episodes, and how canyou make those stand out?
Not just to reinforce yourbranding that is an important part
of it, but to make yourpodcast compelling from the visual.
Because imagine this.
Currently most of the podcastapps focus on the title, and the
(15:22):
thumbnail is very small nextto the title or above the title until
you tap into the episode.
Some podcast apps, I thinkpocketcast has this view to it where
you can browse your episodeswith a bigger emphasis on the episode
artwork.
Yep.
So I think as podcasters, weneed to realize that as podcasting
(15:45):
becomes more visual and visualaspects are part of it, we need to
focus on making our visualelements compelling and communicating
better what the episode is about.
Yeah.
The other thing you have to.
If you decide, hey, I'm goingto do video.
I was listening to a show thatI've listened to for years, and I
did notice that his audio wasa little just slightly off.
(16:08):
Now I'm listening through theears of a podcaster, but I was like,
he sounds like he's not asclose to the microphone as he usually
is.
And then about halfwaythrough, he said, oh, and you'll
see right here where thenumbers are such and such.
And I was like, oh, that's whyhis audio isn't as good.
He's probably using adifferent mic, it's out of the shot
kind of thing.
(16:28):
And I went, you know what?
I like this show.
Maybe this will be one of myYouTube shows if he's going to start
doing visual stuff.
Kind of like when radio showsdo a lot of visual stuff, that always
drives me nuts.
The morning guy in Clevelanddoes a lot of visual stuff.
And I'm like, I'm listening to you.
And so I went to his YouTubechannel and I'm looking for the.
(16:49):
I looked down at my podcastapp, I got the title, and I just
quickly went to his YouTubechannel expecting.
Cause this was a new episodefor the video to be right there for
me to click on.
I'm like, oh, I'll justrewatch this.
And you know, et cetera.
And I couldn't find.
It wasn't.
I don't know if it wasn'tthere, but I know I clicked around
on the videos and I was like,oh, wait a minute, that's a playlist.
(17:10):
I just want to go to videosand go to recent.
And I couldn't find it.
And I was like, oh, maybe hejust started doing this.
And because you can kind oftweak your YouTube page when people
go to it, what people seefirst, et cetera, et cetera.
So if you're going to dovideo, make sure your, your latest
videos are easy to find.
Because I was kind of like inthe end, I didn't listen to, I didn't
(17:31):
listen or watch.
I was like, well, I'm notgetting anything out of the audio
and I can't find the video.
And I just went to the next podcast.
So that's something to keep in mind.
A try not to do the.
Oh, you'll see right herewhere Daniel is holding up this thing.
No, you know, it's not.
Granted if you're doing a showabout woodworking or something, yeah,
that's a visual kind of videofirst type thing.
(17:54):
But if you can try to avoidany kind of video reference, just
be sure to like, oh, I'mholding up this thing and it's this
and that.
And I know for me, I do a showcalled the, the podcast review show
where we used to reviewsomebody's website and we always
made very sure to say verydescriptive of what we're doing.
We like that you have a lot ofwhite space and et cetera, et cetera.
(18:17):
But in the end I thought, youknow what we need to do because we
could drive traffic to ourwebsite and say, if you'd like to
see the visual audit of thewebsite, we've got a video for it
on our website.
Go and watch that.
And that would drive trafficto the website.
But just keep that in mind asyou're doing video, you kind of have
to upfront, I think, answerthe question and am I audio or video
(18:38):
first?
And in some of thesefrustrations with how YouTube works
and what YouTube does worksreally well for YouTube.
So yeah, don't think that it'sa horrible thing that they're doing.
It's a different style ofpresenting content.
And I think because peopletraditionally have consumed content
differently from YouTube,compare that to other video streaming
(19:01):
platforms like Apple TV plusNetflix, Amazon prime, where it's
very much, you're watchingthis show.
Would you like to resume thisshow that you're watching?
Watch the next episode of the show.
YouTube doesn't work that same way.
They'll just show you all the videos.
But there is something that Ithink we could take from this approach.
Even if you're focused only onaudio, think about what YouTube is
(19:25):
doing with their discoverything where if you go to a channel
frequently, they will show themost popular videos first to new
people visiting that channeland they'll show if you made a special
Channel welcome video ortrailer, whatever they call it now,
they show that up front too.
So people can click on that tosee whatever that welcome video is.
(19:47):
And they'll see probably yourmost popular videos, as well as some
playlists.
What if you could put thatsame kind of thing in your website,
either as your homepage or assome kind of getting started page
where you show your bestepisodes, especially show if you've
got a trailer, maybe put thatup front as well as part of your
(20:09):
introduction to the show forpeople coming to your site, but then
surface some of that best content.
And that can be pretty easy todo with almost any publishing system
where just look at your stats,see which episodes were downloaded
the most or played the most.
Or if you've got YouTubevideos of your content, see which
(20:30):
of them were watched the most,both the straight plays as well as
the video itself.
People watched the majority ofthe video and didn't abandon the
video.
Look also at engagement, whatepisodes inspired the most comments
or the most feedback oranything like that, and then feature
those episodes prominently onyour site as a way to better get
(20:53):
people into your content more deeply.
Especially for the podcaststhat are not serial, and I don't
mean serial like the podcastserial, but serialized content.
If people don't have to startat a specific episode, then don't
worry about where they start.
Point them to your bestcontent because you want to get them
(21:14):
hooked in.
And that's the way YouTubeworks, and it works really well at
that.
Yeah, that's one of thethings, like you said, you can go
into your media host orwhatever to see, but the whole point
is when somebody comes to yourwebsite, you want to make a great
first impression.
So you want to have adescription or something so they
don't have to scratch theirhead and go, what is this about?
(21:36):
But Yeah, I mean, WordPress,there's categories, there's plugins.
With PodPage, we have acreatively named thing called Featured
Episodes where you simply justgo in and say, this is featured.
And then you can pick whereyou want that to show up on the front
page.
And it just makes sensebecause the goal is for them to get
the best content.
So they're like, wow, this isreally good.
(21:56):
So let's say you had, I don'tknow, three episodes on the front
page, and they kind of werejust clicking around and every one
they're like, oh, this sounds good.
Oh, this is wow.
I want to hear more about this.
They're also hopefullysomewhere on your website a button
that says follow that they cango follow on Apple or Spotify or
Pocket Casts or podcast guruor whatever.
(22:16):
But that's the whole goal iswe want them to follow the show.
And you get them to follow theshow by going, look at the awesome
things that, you know, arehere on our show.
So that just makes total sense.
That's actually Brendan fromPodPage was supposed to talk at Podcast
Movement Evolutions.
Unfortunately, his entirefamily got wiped out.
And so I kind of took.
(22:37):
We should clarify there.
They were just sick.
Sick.
They didn't die.
There was no terrorist attack.
No.
But when you have, you know,little ones, like very little ones
sick, and mom and dad, it'slike, yeah, time for me to step in.
He's like, I'm not going tomake it.
And part of his presentationwas find out what's working.
And you can do that through,you know, your media host through
(22:59):
Apple Podcasts has theirdashboard, Spotify has their dashboard.
There's Google Analytics.
There's, you know, a audience survey.
That's never a bad idea.
Find out what's working andput that on your front page.
And I had somebody once said,yeah, but won't that then make the
show like an episode that'salready one of your top listen to.
(23:20):
Isn't that kind of likefeeding the rich?
Like, it's already popular.
You're just gonna make it more popular.
And I'm like, yeah, but it'syour best stuff.
You know what I mean?
Like, you don't want to, like,oh, well, I'm gonna put this new
episode up because it onlyhas, you know, 10 downloads.
I'm like, yeah, maybe there'sa reason it only has 10 downloads.
So put your best foot forward.
If you go to a restaurant andlook at their menu frequently, they
(23:42):
will highlight, this is ourmost popular dish.
Yeah.
And yes, you could get aconspiracy theory going that maybe
it's their.
They say it's their mostpopular dish because that's the one
that's easiest for them to make.
And that's what they want youto think is their most popular dish.
But usually it is a unique dish.
And I love.
Whenever I go to a restaurant,I love asking them, what is your
(24:02):
unique dish?
What are you known for here?
Because that's what I wantedto try.
I want to try something unique.
But talking about this thingof what performs well and exponentially
building on that performance.
I did this also when I wasbuilding my email list years ago,
where for, I think, twomonths, I was doing an experiment
of trying to make lead magnetsopt in Incentives, bonuses, they're
(24:27):
called different things, butsomething that I offer as an incentive
for people to join my email list.
And I tried to make a new onefor every episode of my podcast or
maybe every other episode.
I did this for a couple ofmonths and one in particular really
stood out that a lot of peoplesubscribed to my emails and downloaded
this specific opt in incentivethat I had.
(24:48):
So I decided I'm going to takethat one and make that something
that's promoted on my website.
Ethically.
I don't blast you with a popup the first time you get to my site,
but if you browse around or ifyou're intending to leave from the
site, one of those thingswhere then I pop up a thing that
says, hey, before you go, youmight like this resource.
And that worked for me andthat resource and that approach that
(25:11):
I took for only a couple ofmonths skyrocketed the growth of
my email newsletter list tothe point that I have more email
subscribers than I havepodcast subscribers, which is a really
interesting flip to be in that position.
But think of what that coulddo for your podcast too.
Just like Dave was saying,maybe your latest episode isn't what
(25:33):
you should be promoting at thetop of your homepage.
Maybe it should be somethingelse, get people really hooked so
then the other things you talkabout will make more sense.
Well, to piggyback on that, I,when I read this, I'm like, oh, that
can't work.
That's just too simple.
So I went into GoogleAnalytics to see what were my top
10 pages that brought in traffic.
(25:55):
Smart.
And I was like, okay.
And then I made a lead magnetfor all of those.
Oh, brilliant.
And I was amazed at how my, mylist grew.
And the one was how to take aphone call on a podcast.
And I was like, when Was this made?
1977.
I'm like, what the heck?
And so all I did was I made alittle box there that said, would
(26:16):
you like this post as a PDF?
Because I was like, I don'tknow what I'm going to make for this.
And so for about a month and ahalf it just said, would you like
this post as a PDF?
And people would sign up toget it.
And I was like, you do knowyou can bookmark this, right?
And I later went back and kindof made a here's how to take phone
calls.
But really it was like, you'renot going to take phone calls on
a show.
Here's, you know, use chat anduse this and that.
(26:38):
But the basic idea of find outwhere you're getting the most traffic
and put your pop up orwhatever you want in front of that.
And I was really amazed at howwell that works.
So.
And you can use AI to helpwith this too.
When you discover thosethings, you can give it the transcript
or the page or the article,whatever it is, whatever the content
is.
You can give an AI this kindof content and you can ask an AI
(26:59):
give me some ideas ofsomething I can make from this as
a downloadable resource togive away or give me some ideas of
how to promote this on mywebsite to new people.
Because maybe it's an episodethat's not necessarily like an intro
or a necessarily good firstepisode to jump into your podcast,
(27:20):
but because it's your mostpopular, you could then ask AI, tell
me how could I better promotethis to first time listeners?
Yeah, absolutely.
It's basically the same content.
If you're just talking headvideos, you can go in and sort the
videos by popularity and thensort the, you know, your media hosts
(27:42):
compare notes to kind of, youwant to cross reference if you want
a second opinion on what's thebest stuff.
If you're seeing that oneepisode both on video and audio is
performing well, then it's apretty good indicator that that's
really good content.
And so that's something youcan do.
The thing I see sometimes thatI giggle at is somebody will start
(28:03):
an audio podcast.
They're like, I'm ready totake my show to the next level.
So to grow my audio podcast,I'm going to start a video channel.
And that's kind of likesaying, you know, I have a bunch
of people that love to listento my show, so I'm going to start.
Or somebody was really into TVand you're like, okay, I'm going
to start a book club.
(28:24):
Well, these people like to watch.
And now you're trying to getthem to read.
I have found, at least in mytravels, getting people to swap one
platform to another unlessthere's a reason to.
I don't know that that alwaysworks, but it's always like, okay,
I started the video platformto try to drive traffic to the audio
(28:45):
platform.
And then you have to ask, butwhat are you going to do to grow
the video platform?
And that's where you have to learn.
Like you were mentioningthumbnails and titles.
That's where you have to learnthe algorithm.
And I always kind of joke whenI hear people say, but there is no
discovery, there's nodiscovery tool in audio podcast,
you know, and I'm like, whatdo you mean?
They're like, well, you know,something that would know you and
(29:07):
know what you like and thenrecommend things that it thinks you
would like.
And I go, well, there is oneof those in audio podcast.
Mine is called Doug.
It's my brother, and he knowswhat I like.
He's known me my entire life.
And there's a movie out now, Ithink it's called so you killed a
unicorn.
It's a dark comedy, and heknows I love dark comedy.
(29:28):
And it's got Paul Rudd and abunch of really good people in it.
He's like, dude, that has gotto be right up your alley.
So I went and saw it, and itwas right up my alley.
You know, it's word of mouth,but it's still kind of doing the
same thing an algorithm does,which is recommend things based on
its knowledge of you, you know.
So as much as I hear that allthe time, like, oh, there's no discovery
in podcasting, I'm like, well,there's word of mouth and there's
(29:51):
a study I think it's from.
It's getting a little old inthe tooth.
2019, Jacobs Media said thatbasically around 70% of podcasts
are discovered via word of mouth.
So I'm like, we have word ofmouth in audio, and that's working,
at least for me, working justas good as an algorithm and video.
And I think we should have awhole episode talking about recommendations,
(30:13):
especially as they come intoplay more and more in podcasting.
So we'll certainly do that atsome point.
But I tying this intosomething you were saying, I want
to quote from someone.
I recently spoke at theNational Religious Broadcasters,
and one of the other panelistswas Casey Helmick from newbridgestudios.com
(30:33):
and he said something very good.
I love the exact way that hesaid this.
He said podcasters will almostcertainly need a video strategy.
And I love that he didn't saypodcasters need to be making videos
or they need to make videos,video episodes, or they need to be
on YouTube or they need to beusing shorts.
(30:54):
What he said is a video strategy.
And that I think is perfect.
Yes, we should have a videostrategy, whatever that is.
Maybe for you, that's postingfull videos on YouTube of your episodes.
Maybe it's only posting shorts.
Maybe it's making separatevideo content.
Maybe it's audiograms.
That hasn't really worked toowell in the last few years, but maybe.
(31:16):
Maybe that's what you want to try.
The main point is have aStrategy to use video in some way
for your podcast.
It could even be livestreaming, especially with what we've
got in podcasting 2.0 being developed.
And even the podcast standardsproject is talking about standardizing
some live streaming technologyfor video in podcasting apps using
(31:38):
HLS streaming, which I knowthat's redundant, but using HLS and
some other technology andsuch, but standardizing that so that
all the podcast apps, thepodcasting 2.0 apps that is, could
get live video into those apps.
So think about your videostrategy and it doesn't have to be
(31:59):
full episodes, but do come upwith a strategy for video.
Yeah.
The thing that gets me excitedabout because I know the one time
I asked you what does it taketo do a live stream?
And on a.
I think it was like step 22that I finally went nevermind.
Because it was.
It's like, oh, it's easy, justdo this.
(32:19):
But if you think about it,what's the one thing that radio has
over podcasting?
And in theory, because a lotof it's especially at night's pre
programmed, but they are live.
Like they can do live sportsand things like that.
And if podcasting could bringin either live audio and video, that
would be different.
I mean, I, I've done that inthe past.
(32:41):
Just I w.
I forget I was at a Purduegame looking at my stepson and mom
had made the trip and so shewanted to see the band.
So I just fired up a YouTubelive stream and was like, here it
is.
It was, you know, to her andyou know, if we could do something
like that, all sorts of local stuff.
I know right now Adam's reallyinto hyper local stuff, but if you
(33:05):
could blast the local footballgame as you do the play by play or
whatever, that would be really interesting.
So I'll be interested to see.
It's, it's.
I was happy to see thestandards project is not dead.
They're moving ahead.
And if we can, you know, ifthat's what we want to focus on,
that's great.
I do a live show every Saturday.
And probably the reason Istill do a live show is because it's.
(33:28):
The number of people that showup live is minuscule compared to
the people that download.
But it's the same 20 to 30people every Saturday.
And it's instant feedback.
That's.
It's really addicting when youstart, you know, asking your audience
and they answer you right there.
You're like, oh, well, this isworth getting up at 10:30 in the
morning.
(33:49):
That's my Saturday morning cartoons.
Yeah, that's it.
But I think it's like yousaid, video's not going away.
It's the distant cousin of podcasting.
And some people like to read,some people like to listen, and some
people like to watch.
And if your numbers are kindof flat on the audio side and you've
got the time and you've gotthe budget and you have the desire
(34:11):
to do video, by all means.
I did run into one person thatdecided because they heard that Spotify
was all that in a bag of chipsand video, that they weren't going
to put their video on YouTube,only on Spotify.
And I was like, no, if you gotvideo, it's more like YouTube first,
and then if you have time,throw it on Spotify.
I have, I don't know, probably15 videos on Spotify, and I don't
(34:37):
know that any of them havedouble digits.
I don't promote it.
But as much as they're like,oh, people are consuming massive
amounts of video, for me, asurvey of one, no, they're not.
Now, I want to give a shoutout to a great article by Tommy Serafinsky,
and we'll have the link tothis in the notes.
He shared this on X recently,and I loved his approach to this.
(34:59):
The title of the article isTime to Flip the Script on Video
Podcasting.
And while we've been talking alot about video in here, I love his
approach to this.
And here's a brief quote fromhis article.
As podcasters, especiallythose of us who aren't stoked about
the push towards videopodcasting, we should not only keep
highlighting the benefits ofaudio podcasting, but we ought to
(35:22):
flip the narrative anddemonstrate that much content presented
as video would work as well oreven better as an audio podcast.
And I love that he's takingthat approach.
And I've seen that many timeswhere I'll find a video on YouTube.
And I do have that thought of,oh, this should have been an audio
podcast.
Just like, you know, the wholething of going to a meeting at work,
(35:45):
and it's like, oh, this shouldhave been an email.
Yeah, well, there are plentyof videos out there and a lot of
people who are thinking, oh, Ineed to do video, or even getting
enraptured in the idea of Ishould only be doing video.
Don't forget about audio.
Certainly audio is so muchmore accessible and reachable in
(36:05):
many places, certainly moreconsumable in many places.
So in the whole push towardvideo, often still have that question
in your mind of, would thisactually Be better as audio.
Yeah.
I mean, let's prove that point.
Let's have fun with stats,which always go over gangbusters
with an audio show.
But when I did my research, itwas 2 point.
(36:27):
We'll say 2.5 billion viewerson YouTube and 65.3 million creators.
And then I compared that to audio.
That's 202 million listenersmonthly and then 358,000 active creators.
And if you do the math onthat, it means there are 564.
(36:50):
If we're looking at the audioside, 564 listeners for every creator,
where there's only 38 viewerson YouTube, even though the numbers
are huge, there's actuallymore per creator on the audio side.
And already people are drivingoff the road or because they're falling
asleep, because their numbers.
But that's an example ofsomething that, like, anytime I'm
(37:14):
doing an episode in the futureand there's a lot of stats, and I
was like, so how I'm going tomake that less boring?
Even though it's, you know,it's like, wow, look, stats.
I didn't know that.
It's up, it's down, it'ssideways, whatever it is.
But I'm going to try to weavea story into the numbers, because
just numbers, you can get awaywith that on video, I think a lot
easier than if it's justaudio, because numbers don't do much
(37:38):
for the theater of the mindunless you Somehow say, picture 17
bushels of apples.
And, you know, you have to dosomething to trigger the theater
of the mind.
So absolutely, some thingswork better.
RuPaul's Drag Race is a veryvisual show where.
Ask the podcast coach.
Not really.
Right.
Two guys, talking heads, somegraphics, nothing too crazy.
(38:01):
One of my favorite lines, AdamCurry said, not every book needs
to be a movie.
I love that line.
But then you also look at.
I had a list.
I know Justin Bieber is on there.
Ariana Grande, who's now inWas just in Wicked.
Kate Upton, who's a model.
Ed Sheeran, who's a pop guy.
Arnel Pineda, if you've neverheard of that, that's the lead singer
(38:22):
of Journey.
All these people arediscovered on YouTube.
So, yes, every book doesn'tneed to be a movie.
But on the other hand, thereare people.
Now, again, if you do the mathon that, okay, how many people have
actually been discovered onYouTube versus how many actual YouTube
videos there are?
That might be one of thosewhere it's like you have a better
(38:43):
chance of being struck byLightning after you won the lottery
kind of thing of being discovered.
I think tying this alltogether, we're seeing waves of interest
in video and audio.
And I wouldn't be surprised ifa few years from now, audio only
is rediscovered and has thisbig coming back and people are like,
(39:03):
you know, I'm so tied up withall of these videos, but I just discovered
I can listen to this YouTubeshow in audio and I can download
it and I don't have to streamit, I don't have to watch it.
I don't have to have YouTubered premium plus, double plus, good.
I can just listen to it.
So we might see a renaissanceof audio again.
(39:25):
Because think about video.
Like in the early days, videopodcasting was really popular because
video podcasting predates YouTube.
So back in the early days,like 2005, 2004, video podcasts were
the only way to distributeindependent video on the Internet.
And so it got really big back then.
(39:45):
But then YouTube stole theshow and then audio podcasting was
growing at the same time, andhits like serial and other shows
were audio only and stillaudio only.
And then YouTube.
Then I think because ofmisconceptions and confusions, though,
YouTube is stealing the show again.
But at some point it's goingto come back around to audio, I think,
(40:07):
and it's just going to waveback and forth and we can ride these
waves.
It doesn't mean that we haveto hold the line and be only audio
or it doesn't mean we have tojump into video or stay only video.
But we can leverage thesethings right now to accomplish some
cool things, reach people indifferent places for sure.
(40:29):
And the big thing is, I thinkwe're always going to see video and
audio podcasting mixedtogether and people wanting both
ways.
And as much as we can, try tomeet the audience where they are
and where they will be.
Absolutely.
I think my last point that Ialways say anytime we talk about
(40:51):
video, if you don't want to dovideo, you don't have to.
I'm kind of with Daniel thatyou probably should.
But if you don't have thetime, the budget, or the desire,
you don't have to.
Because so many people like.
But everybody says I have to.
Mike.
No, that's YouTube says youhave to.
So.
But absolutely.
We want to thank everybodywho's been streaming sats to us that's
(41:15):
still going on.
If you're still doing that,that means you're hardcore.
We appreciate that.
I wanted to grab.
There's a sound bite I want ofAdam from like I don't know, eight
or nine episodes ago where hegoes, we still need wallets.
I just want to like, hey.
But we'll see.
Thanks to Sam Sethi.
Sam Sethi was.
The guy was like, hey, like,when are you guys coming back?
(41:39):
Well, and at Podcast MovementEvolutions, I saw James Kridlin walking
around with his laptop in onehand, holding a microphone in the
other, and he's recording PodNews Weekly Review.
And then he comes up to meright as I'm chewing on some candy
or something, and he wants tobriefly interview me.
So I quickly glance at hisscreen to see was he recording?
(42:00):
And yeah, it was Pod NewsWeekly Review.
And he asked me, when is thefuture of podcasting coming back?
And I told him, we're going torecord an episode after Podcast Movement
Evolution.
So by the time you're hearingthis, that was two weeks ago.
But, yes, we are back to.
We've got a list of topicsthat we want to discuss for future
episodes.
So send us your feedback.
Send us those booster grams.
(42:21):
You know, attach money to your feedback.
We love feedback when it'sattached with money.
Absolutely.
So that's going to do it forthis episode of the Future of Podcasting.
Keep boosting and keep podcasting.
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