December 11, 2024 • 37 mins
Today we look at the evolving landscape of cryptocurrency wallets, particularly focusing on the recent challenges faced by Alby Wallets. As these wallets begin to disappear, hosts Daniel and Dave explore the implications for podcasters relying on streaming satoshis for value for value.
They discuss potential alternatives, including the Albie Hub and other wallet solutions, emphasizing the importance of innovation in this transitional phase. The conversation highlights the necessity for simpler, more user-friendly payment systems that don't require deep technical knowledge, ensuring that podcasters and listeners can easily engage with the ecosystem. Ultimately, the duo encourages a mindset shift towards valuing content and supporting creators, setting the stage for a more sustainable future in podcasting.
Takeaways:
- The podcast discusses the complexities involved with cryptocurrency wallets and their evolving landscape.
- Dave Jackson emphasizes the need for simpler solutions to keep cryptocurrency transactions user-friendly.
- Listeners are encouraged to embrace new technologies and adapt to changes in podcast monetization.
- The conversation highlights the importance of community collaboration in finding innovative cryptocurrency solutions.
- A shift in mindset is needed for audiences to embrace the value for value model.
- The hosts explore potential new models for payment splits that could simplify transactions.
Mentioned in This Episode
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Find Dave at schoolofpodcasting.com
Find Daniel at theaudacitytopodcast.com
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See you next year!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey, Daniel, what's in your wallet?
This is the Future ofPodcasting, where we ponder what
awaits the podcasters of today.
From the school of podcasting,here's Dave Jackson.
And from the Audacity toPodcast, here's Daniel J.
Lewis.
Daniel Future of podcasting,episode 54.
(00:21):
We're talking wallets today.
That's fun, but not the kindof wallet you get.
Although you can't see this, Ihave the fun filled.
What is the name of this thingwhen we talk in wallets?
It is the big skinny wallet,because I used to have the George
Costanza one, you know, thatyou put in your back pocket and would
break your hip.
(00:42):
So they're not a sponsor, butthey should be.
Big skinny wallets are myfavorite when I have one for my the
back pocket of my jeans.
We're talking wallets in thecloud for Bitcoin, et cetera, et
cetera.
And the good news is we don'thave an official solution, but there
is kind of a light at the endof the tunnel.
Since Walletmageddon orwhatever we're going to.
(01:04):
Call that, let's back up andsay what the problem is.
Albie Wallets are going away.
The thing that, like so muchof the podcasting 2.0 streaming satoshis
was built on this idea of AlbyWallets and something similar to
that too, that's basicallygoing away.
Well, Alby Wallets are going away.
There is this Albie Hub thingthat is easier now to run than it
(01:29):
was when it first came out,but it's still geeky.
But it's more possible to do.
If this is language thatyou're familiar with, then you'd
be comfortable doing this.
You can run Albi Wallet Hubfrom a Docker image.
So if you want to rent a cheapserver, you know, a $2 server somewhere,
and run Albi Hub on that asyour wallet, you could do that.
(01:51):
Is that necessarily the best thing?
I don't know.
But with some of these taxlaws and crypto laws and financial
laws and all kinds of thingsout there, there are all of these
concerns around the legalityof some of these solutions, or if
someone really wants to getinto this business of basically hosting
wallets, because that makesthem a sort of financial provider,
(02:12):
which means they have to doall of these other things and that
means expensive stuff.
So all that to say it'scomplicated, it's messy for the people
creating these wallets thatwe've used.
And it basically means thatwhat we've been doing for now a couple
Or a few years for the Valuefor Value exchange streaming payments
(02:35):
to podcasters through thepodcasting 2.0 technology.
That's going to end.
However, I think that's a good thing.
We've talked about this inthis podcast before, where we've
said, if we have to move awayfrom this, it will inspire new innovation.
And, Dave, why did you startthe future of podcasting?
(02:59):
Originally, it was under adifferent name, but why did you start
it?
Yeah, because I didn't know athing about crypto.
That was the meme that wentout, and I was like, well, I guess
I'm going to jump in and.
Because there's only one wayto find out, and that's to try using
it.
And there was.
What's the telecommution.
There's some sort of tela.
Something telegram involvedand all sorts of stuff.
(03:21):
And then I.
Voltron or volt voltage orthere's some sort of thing.
And they're like, wow, youstarted your own node?
I'm like, I did.
Okay, if you say so.
So, yeah, it wasn't really easy.
And then when Albie camealong, it was like, oh, just set
this up and you get this emailand you copy and paste that.
And it made.
It didn't make it easy, but itmade it easier.
(03:42):
And then what was interestingis after everybody kind of like,
hey, this is easier.
Wow.
And then we all jumped on it.
And I remember the first timeAdam said, you know, we've kind of
taken this thing that's allabout being decentralized and it's
kind of centralized.
And I went, yeah, that's not agood thing when you think about it.
And I was.
I know.
Whoever voltage I think itwas, I was using, but that was like
(04:04):
20 bucks a month.
And I was like, well, thisthing, they just take a piece of
my action, I'm assuming.
Or they remember when I metthem, I said, what's the business
model?
And they're like, we're goingto worry about it later.
And I was like, oh, that'salways kind of, you know, so they're
great guys and, you know,they've given you a solution if you.
Again, if you're kind ofnerdy, to get Albie Hub, I have no
(04:26):
idea what I'm doing.
I just asked them, I'm like,hey, I just want to be able to receive
sats like I used to.
And they're like, oh, this?
And I'm like, okay.
And I have no idea, like, ifthey said, go in and change the perplexiflexer
to, you know, minus gigawattsgonna be like, I have no idea.
Recalibrate the flux capacitor.
Exactly.
I'd be.
I have no idea what you're talking.
(04:47):
I still don't know.
You know, I, I know enough tobe dangerous and if you got a good
help section, I can probablyfigure it out, but.
And from what I get, we'repaying them in crypto and I'm on
like a three month deepdiscount, but once the price goes
back to normal, I'm going tohave to.
And again, kind of much the problem.
I'm going to have to transfermoney from my bank account to my
(05:09):
strike account so I can thenpay their invoice in crypto.
So that whole thing is like, Idon't know how it's going to work,
if it's going to automaticallytry and if I don't have enough money
in my strike, it's going to bounce.
I'll have to figure that outwhen the, the bill comes through.
But I appreciate the effortthat they've put in.
(05:29):
You know, we wouldn't havegotten this far without the lovely
boys over at Alby.
But when I saw the price and Ifinally, whatever it's, it's like
20 something dollars a monthand I'm like, I'm not getting anywhere
near that, like even if Ibroke even.
But.
So for now I'll probably keepusing it just because I guess the
alternative, that's my wholequestion, would be to either open
(05:51):
a Fountain wallet or somethingat True Fans with Sam.
And I'm not sure either one ofthose is set up to be.
I know listeners can put moneyin to support the podcasters, but
I'm not sure podcasters canuse it as kind of a, an input for
crypto.
I'm not sure how Fountainworks exactly, but I know Oscar and
(06:16):
that was the thing.
Oscar was on the latestepisode of the podcasting 2.0 show.
And to his credit, and this iswhere Oscar really, I mean, the whole
community, it's interestinghow we all work together and basically
Oscar came up with somethingbecause he could have just said,
hey, everybody got to use Fountain.
I know we're going to tradeone centralized version for another
one, but he's like, oh, youcan use Fountain, but here's this
(06:38):
other thing you can use.
So he actually made somethingthat might end up being his competitor.
And I was like, that justshows the heart of somebody who does
something that's good for the space.
Not so much great for himbecause it could be a competitor,
but I just thought it was nicethat he was like, all right, somebody's
got to have a solution.
And I know it has something todo with Nostr, in name only, but
(07:00):
not really Nostr, whateverthat is.
And he kind of put it outthere, said, hey, here's the solution,
and we can all look at it.
And most really good ideasdon't come in the first draft.
It's when somebody looks at itand goes, oh, this is pretty neat.
I wonder if we could get it todo this, or what if we tied it in
with this or that whole thing?
So that's from what I couldhear without really understanding
(07:22):
most of what they were talkingabout with the details, I was like,
I was just happy that we havepeople working on it.
And it sounds like they havesomething that if they have to, because
come January, whatever thedate was, I want to say 16th, it's
going away.
So we got to have something in place.
And now it's a matter of allhands on deck to kick the tires on
this and see if this is thebest idea for now.
(07:45):
And then we have to leaveenough time for app developers to
be able to rework their appsto somehow use whatever new format
that's going to be in place.
Yeah, and it's that firstdraft, second draft sort of thing
that has me excited because Ifeel like we got too into and too
committed to the first draft,which was the whole streaming satoshis
(08:09):
and the Albie approach to this.
And I know there were otherthings to it.
So this isn't.
Everything is on Albie's shoulders.
It's not like that.
But we did build around thisone model and really put all of the
focus and attention on thisone approach, and it was a very geeky
approach.
And like in my keynotepresentation years ago, my prediction
(08:30):
about the future of podcastingis that the technology will disappear
whenever you build somethingcompletely brand new on the cutting
edge, the technology is veryvisible, and the geeks love getting
into the technology.
That's like why podcasting inthe beginning was mostly tech shows,
because it was all the nerdsand geeks who could figure out how
(08:51):
to podcast and publish it.
But then, as podcasting hasbecome far more accessible since
then, we've seen more peoplewho know nothing about the technology,
being able to get their voicesout there through podcasting.
I think that is wonderful.
They shouldn't have to knowthe tech.
Same thing here in podcasting 2.0.
With a lot of these featureswe're making, I really think the
(09:12):
approach needs to be that theyshouldn't have to know the tech.
They shouldn't have tounderstand how it works.
It should be as simple asclicking a few buttons or filling
in a few fields.
Not this stuff like having toknow are you using keysend or node
or what is your.
All of this stuff making it simpler.
And I'm excited about thisbecause it's forcing everyone to
(09:36):
get on board with coming upwith something new.
And there have been multiplesuggestions of different approaches
that could be taken to this.
One of the things that's beentalked about is right now, what podcasting
2.0 is doing with thestreaming satoshis isn't being done
almost anywhere else.
And that is where it isactually streaming the payments from
(09:59):
the listener's wallet to thepodcaster's wallet and all of the
other wallets that might be inthe splits as well.
And that's happening every minute.
That's not being done in otherplaces as people are reevaluating
things.
That's one of the things thatpeople have thought about is, well,
do we really.
Do we really need the abilityto stream the payments every minute?
(10:22):
Why not just count up?
Like you have a ticker that atthe end of the episode or whenever
you pause an episode or stopor delete it or whatever, whenever
you move on from an episodefor whatever reason, that's when
the payment is sent.
Just one single payment forhowever long you've listened.
So it's still the effect of astreaming payment where someone is
(10:44):
paying you based on how muchthey listen to the podcast or paying
automatically.
The actual implementation is different.
There are some other ideasthat are being discussed that I really
like these ideas becauseanother problem that we've created
is the split apocalypse or theoverload of splits.
Like, well, let's be honest.
(11:06):
If you look at the podcasting2.0 show for this and actually look
at their splits, it can looklike a mess sometimes because there
are so many splits in the RSS feed.
And the reason for that isthat Adam and Dave are being so generous
to the ecosystem.
(11:26):
So they want other people toget a split of the money that's coming
in.
And that's great.
I'm not saying that idea isbad, the implementation of that.
I think when we came up withthe idea of splits, we were initially
thinking, you put yourself inthere and your co host, and then
maybe someone gets a fee for aservice they're providing and that's
(11:47):
it.
I don't think we anticipatedthe two dozen splits and splitting
things up on the chapter level.
Or individual sections of an episode.
So these are uses that havecome out in the last couple of years
that we've then squeezed intothe way we were doing things because
we had already committed tothat way of doing things.
(12:07):
Well, if we have to change theway we're doing things, then we can
also reevaluate ourimplementations for these other things.
And one of the ideas that Ireally like is where.
Now, I'm not completely clearon the technical explanation for
this, but here's theconceptual explanation is where instead
of putting all your splits inyour RSS feed, you put a single.
(12:31):
We'll just call it like apayment destination.
And a payment is sent to thatsingle destination, and then that
destination handles where thesplits go.
And it could even be possiblethat that destination could receive
multiple types of payment.
So let's just throw this out there.
(12:53):
It could receive satoshis,which are small portions of Bitcoin.
It could receive Ethereum,maybe other kinds of cryptocurrency.
It could receive a PayPal payment.
Maybe it integrates nice withVemo and Stripe and other things
like that.
Now, how technically possiblethat is, I don't know, but that's
(13:13):
what I'm talking about.
That could potentially bebuilt into this, where it's then
this one universal end pointwhere it's like, send your money
here.
We'll figure out how toactually convert that and use it.
I think that's a much betterapproach to this.
And that's the kind of thingthat people are talking about because
(13:33):
we're having to throw out theold models.
Old models.
This is all brand new.
So it's.
We can't really call it old.
We just can say the currentmodel rather.
So we have to look at this.
It's like a door is closing.
And instead of just trying tolook for an open window or build
another door, we're saying,you know what?
(13:54):
As long as that door isclosed, how about we rebuild the
whole house and make the wholehouse better and with a better door
on it, too?
And it is.
It's amazing that it works.
But when we brought music intothis, and the fact that you could
send a payment to a band andthat band could then split it amongst
(14:14):
the members, I was like,that's really cool.
And now looking back, I go,but did that complicate things?
Like, we haven't really gotfull adoption of the streaming sats
in the first place, and we'realready adding more complexity to
it.
And I'm like, I mean, I really do.
I love the idea But I'm like,maybe not.
(14:34):
You know what I mean?
It's like, maybe it shouldjust be here.
Here's 20 bucks for the band.
You guys argue about it.
The drummer is going to get less.
That's just in the handbook.
But it'll be interesting to see.
Can we take all this progressthat we've done with the splits?
Because I really do think isthat the magic switching wallet where
splits came in for somethingthat was magic.
(14:55):
So I don't want to get rid ofthe magic.
But it might be one of thosewhere we have to step back and go,
maybe we come back to this later.
Let's just get it working nowwith just sending a payment and then
later we can figure out whatto do with the splits.
We'll have to see.
But I haven't looked at the.
Because I'm not going tounderstand it anyway.
The thing that Oscar made.
(15:16):
But I should go, at leastsniff it so I can go, yes, I don't
understand this, but I lovethe fact I know it's on GitHub or
something that you can, if youare of that persuasion, you can go
play with it.
So that'll be fun to see whatcomes about.
And this is the way thatprogramming works many times where
you make something rough inthe beginning that gets by and does
(15:37):
its job.
And let me self promote herefor a moment.
Podgagement.
So has the new charts andrankings feature that I started building
that five years ago.
That's why my chart data forPOD gaugement goes back five years
now.
The way that I stored all ofthat data for all of these years
(15:57):
was not the best way.
So it's taking a long time toconvert all of that data over to
be usable.
But that code that I made fiveyears ago, I look at that now and
it is horrible.
It is embarrassingly bad, butit's getting the job done.
It's been working for five years.
(16:19):
But now that I look at it withnow five years of experience, like
that was my first app that Iprogrammed completely by myself with
my new knowledge of theprogramming language that I was using.
And I made it work well.
Now I've learned a whole lotmore since then.
I've observed a lot moredifferent ways of doing things.
I've learned better practices.
(16:40):
Even just the file structureof these different files that are
parts of my whole program,it's a mess.
But I have a much betterstructure now.
So when I can, I'm going torebuild it into a better structure
and optimize it and find waysto make it go faster and to be more
thorough and to be moreautomated in certain aspects, because
(17:05):
that's what you can do.
You.
You build it rough.
It's that minimum viableproduct idea that it might be really
rough in the beginning, butit's just getting it out there, the
proof of concept, or gettingsomething working, and then you're
building on that in the future.
I know some people hate thegaming industry for doing this, though,
(17:25):
where a lot of companiesrelease games that basically aren't
finished.
The games of our days, Dave,when we played video games as kids,
you got it.
And that's what you got, iswhat you got on a disc, on a cd,
on a cartridge, whatever itwas that was on that, that's what
you got.
(17:46):
There were no DLCs, there wereno patches.
The companies had to make surethe game worked from the start.
Now, the games were a lotsimpler back then, so it was easier
for that.
But, you know, nowadays someof these games, they're released
and they have so many bugs, somany problems, and it takes sometimes
years to work out all of these things.
(18:07):
Sometimes it's justunanticipated stuff, untested stuff.
Sometimes it's just theydecide we have to put it out there
rough and we'll fix it inpost, that kind of thing.
Like we do sometimes inpodcasting, where we just record
a horrible show and think wecan fix it up in the editing.
Sometimes you can, sometimesyou can't.
But here we are in this nextphase where we can reevaluate these
(18:32):
things and think about, do wereally want to put so many splits
inside the RSS feed, or can wesomehow delegate that elsewhere?
Do we really want to be tied?
And the bitcoin idea,regardless of whether we use bitcoin
and satoshis, does theaudience need to know it's bitcoin
(18:53):
and satoshis?
Could we instead just talkabout credits or tokens, even though
it might be exactly the sameas bitcoin?
So maybe instead of satoshis,like, maybe we say a credit is worth
a thousand satoshis.
So then you're sending onecredit to a podcaster and you're
really sending 1000 satoshis,but it's an equal value like that.
(19:17):
That kind of thing couldhappen too, where we can just really
reevaluate a lot of thesethings to try and make it easier
for everyone else so that itdoesn't require so much learning
in order to just get moneyfrom people.
Because I really think, andthis is the direction we're going
(19:39):
now, it needs to be as easyfor the audience as pretty much they
just press pay in their appand they connect a payment method
on the first time and anytimeafter that, everything else is either
automated or just a simplebutton press.
None of this having totransfer money from one place to
(19:59):
another or convert it from onething to another, even having to
think about that.
And some people are afraid ofbitcoin, whatever reason.
We could call it anything else.
Like James Gridland talksabout it, like Internet tokens or
kind of like circus tickets orfair tickets.
(20:19):
We could call it anything else.
And I think some people wouldbe less afraid of it, but they hear
Bitcoin, and some people areafraid just because of whatever reasons
that has bad connotations intheir mind.
We could move beyond that, andI think we should, so that they don't
have to think about theunderlying technology.
It's just like when we sendeach other money, we don't really
(20:44):
think about how it's converting.
Or like with Apple pay, forexample, from iPhone to iPhone, or
Google Pay from Android deviceto Android device, you don't have
to transfer money from yourbank account into an Apple account
and then into your iPhone andthen send it to the other person
who then has to transfer itand convert it and do all of this
(21:06):
stuff.
It's pretty much straight frommy bank account to your bank account
via this other technology.
Yeah, that's what we're aimingfor, I guess.
The other thing I just wantedto kind of say for anyone who's.
I know for a while when wedidn't hear anything, we kind of
knew this wasn't going to work.
And they were like, okay,well, what are we going to replace
(21:28):
it with?
And nothing really came about.
And then nothing can.
You know, people are busy,it's that time of year.
And so I could see where I waseven kind of going, ooh, maybe this
particular part of 2.0 isn'tgoing to work.
And if you think about it, youmade a great point.
When I first startedpodcasting, I used to keep every
(21:49):
file I used for that episode,and I would export it as a WAV file,
and then I would export it asan MP3.
Why?
Because I didn't know if Ineeded them or not.
And I might.
I don't know if they're goingto build a Dave Jackson library or
something in the future.
60 Minutes is going to call.
I don't know what I wasthinking, but I was like, no, I need
a wave version of this.
(22:10):
And I look back now and go, why?
Why did I do that?
And because you didn't know.
You're like, well, I want tokeep this in case I need it.
And now once I finish anepisode, I Keep the finished MP3
and the rest is out the door.
I'm like, I don't.
You know, I've never once hadto go, oh, wait, I need just the
recorded version of me fromepisode 72.
(22:31):
No, I don't need these anymore.
So this is kind of one ofthose times when we look back and
go, oh, you know what?
Maybe we don't need this.
We thought we needed it, butwe don't.
So let's move forward in amore efficient way, in a way that
makes more sense and maybe isa little more open and able to connect
more things.
So that's the other thing.
I was like, okay, this is just.
(22:51):
It's just a little learningcurve, a little speed bump, you know,
that we go, oh, yeah, wethought that was going to work.
And then it didn't.
So we then switched to that.
So you can think of it asyou're living through history right
now.
And the other thing I noticed,it's going to be annoying.
A lot of people are going tocomplain, but I know, is it.
(23:11):
I want to say Verge.
Is it Verge or Verve when wetalk about the online.
The Verge.
Yeah, the Verge.
Okay.
They have announced thatthey're going to go behind a paywall,
and so is Bloomberg.
So all the great podcastingarticles about from Ashley Carmen,
they're going behind a paywall.
And I'm kind of like, I don'treally want Bloomberg.
I just want, like, can Ashleygo solo on Substack or something?
(23:34):
To where I just.
But I saw that I was kind oflike, oh, man, another subscription.
And I'm like, I think that'sjust the way things are going to
go.
We're going to get nickeledand dime to death.
And the things you want,you'll pay for, and the things you
don't, you won't.
But at least the idea of, hey,maybe you should pay your podcast
or something hopefully won'tseem like such a foreign idea.
(23:55):
As opposed to, well, they'resupposed to be free.
It's like, no, no, you pay forthings that you value.
And so I'm hoping to seepeople that pay for other subscriptions
are going to see this as justlike, oh, yeah, things that deliver
value, I need to pay for.
So I'm hoping that kind ofspills over into the mentality as
(24:16):
we start to move this way whenpeople Go.
What do you mean?
I have to get a cash appaccount or strike or whatever it
is.
It's like, no, this is howthis works.
And those that want to paywill go through the extra steps,
and those that don't, well,even right now, I like Castamatic.
That's one of my faves.
Right now I'm using PodcastGuru, but the developer of Castamatic
(24:39):
is in Italy.
And Strike, one of the thingsused in the proposed solution isn't
available in Italy, so hecan't even test his app.
So that's going to be, in away, as you said earlier, okay, that's
a closed door.
That means I want to sayFrederick or I forget the developer
of Castomatic.
(24:59):
That guy's going to have tofind something different.
And so he might end up comingup with a completely different solution
that's better.
So it'll be interesting tosee, because if you're in a maze
and you come to a dead end,you don't go, oh, well, I guess we'll
just sit here and die of starvation.
You know, you go back and finda different way outside of the maze.
So it'll be fun to watch.
Yeah.
(25:19):
And that this wholecomplicated system has already been
received with such enthusiasmand used in so many places to some
good success, shows it reallyproves the concept that people are
willing to do this.
Like you consider a podcast,like the buzzcast from our friends
(25:40):
at Buzzsprout, where, yes,they have an audience of podcasters,
but they were doing thispodcast before the podcasting 2.0
stuff came out, before theValue for Value.
And I don't think they everasked for money or donations from
their audience before theValue for Value feature in podcasting
(26:03):
2.0 came out.
But when the streamingsatoshis and booster grams did come
out, then they did startsupporting that.
And their audience, eventhough they don't get super techie,
their audience still startedgiving them money because they were
using this thing.
And I know that's on thefringe because their audience is
(26:24):
an audience of podcasters, andwe podcasters are more on the fringe
of the technologies and such,but still, it shows that it's doable
and people are interested in it.
It's like, we've proven thatthere is a need for this.
There are ways to do this.
We've had success with a way.
(26:47):
Now we have to find adifferent way, and we will find a
different way.
And I think it will end upbeing a better way because we've
gotten phase one out.
We've discovered new ways ofusing it.
We've discovered new needsthat whatever has to accommodate.
So I think it will become awhole lot easier.
(27:08):
The biggest hurdle to a lot ofother things, like, a lot of people
might think, well, why don'tyou just use Stripe and PayPal?
The biggest hurdle is not the percentage.
A percentage is fine.
Percentages, I think, aregood, like a.
A fee, a percentage ofwhatever is being given.
A percentage fee is taken out.
(27:28):
That's fine.
What's not good are some ofthese systems take also an additional
flat rate on top of that.
Like PayPal and Stripe areclose to 50 cents per transaction,
plus the percentage fee.
So if someone, for example,wanted to give 50 cents to every
(27:49):
podcast episode that theylisten to, that's just not doable
through PayPal.
Right?
And 50 cents, I know that is tiny.
Yes, I know that.
But as we can get into thismindset and more and more people
will start to think about thisas, how much do I value what I'm
getting?
This is where the real conceptof value for value is.
(28:09):
It is not in streaming satoshis.
It's the mindset.
It's, I value this thing I'mgetting, therefore, I want to give
something of value back.
We're creating a sense ofreciprocity in people and pointing
that out to them to say, hey,we've given you all of this value.
Like, just recently, OvercastMarco announced that he was raising
(28:32):
the price of Overcast, raisingit by 50%, which is $5 a year.
So it's going from $10 a yearto $15 a year.
$15 a year.
And do you know how many hoursOvercast runs on my device?
(28:55):
Yeah, I mean, we're talking.
I get thousands of hours ofcontent from Overcast per year.
Is that worth $15 to me?
Yeah, it's worth more than that.
So if he raised the price tomore than that, I would be willing
to pay it, because I value hisapp and his service like that.
(29:17):
And so bringing it back to thepodcast and podcasters, as I think
more audiences get used toseeing options to pay for things,
whether that's with bonuscontent or it's just giving money
back, I think the more andmore that becomes commonplace, the
more they'll be willing to do it.
And maybe even if they cansee, oh, I can give just 50 cents
(29:41):
an episode, I can spare 50cents an episode.
And like even me, and I'vereferenced before, cash flow is just
an issue right now.
But even me, when I thinkabout, could I give just even just
50 cents to each podcast.
I listen to 50 cents a montheven to each podcast.
(30:04):
Yeah, I can do 50 cents.
You know, that's just shakeout my couch every month, and probably
more than that will fall outof it every month.
I could do that now, gettingto that process of being able to
support all of those podcasts,that's where the technology comes
in.
But this mindset is what weneed to train our audience.
(30:26):
But not even saying, hey, giveus 50 cents, but leaving it open.
And this is again, the conceptof value for value is what is this
worth to you?
And would you want toconsider, can you give that back
if it's been worth that to you?
To some people?
Like, you listen to the noAgenda show and you hear some people
(30:47):
giving thousands of dollars inone single payment because they feel
the podcast is worth that muchto them.
And I saw the same thing whenI was doing a TV show fan podcast
about the TV show once upon atime, that when we started accepting
donations, I was amazed.
Some people were paying us$100 a month for a free podcast about
(31:12):
a free TV show.
And this was before I waslistening to no Agenda or really
familiar with the concept ofvalue for value, even though I was
basically doing it.
It's just when people havethat opportunity and we can make
it easy for them to give back,they'll be far more likely to do
it of whatever value amountthey attribute to that thing.
(31:34):
It's funny, because on onehand, we all work really hard on
our craft and our content, andthen when people pay us for it, we're
like, hey, like, somebody findthis valuable?
And I'm like, well, yeah, you put.
You put a lot of time andeffort into it.
It's worth something.
I know.
The thing I love about atleast you mentioned the no Agenda
(31:56):
show is the insane backcatalog they have.
So they'll mention somethingin the, you know, news today, and
John and Adam would be like,wait a minute, didn't they say the
direct opposite, like, fourmonths ago?
And within seconds, Adam hasthis clip.
And that's just something themainstream media doesn't do.
They don't hold themselves accountable.
(32:17):
But John and Adam do.
And they're like, yep, that'swhat he said.
That's the direct opposite, orwhatever it was.
So.
And that, to me, is valuable.
I'm like, oh, I'm not gettingthis in mainstream news or even on
some of the kind of specialtynews shows.
I'm like, I just don't getthat kind of information.
So I know I'm set up on PayPalto give them a certain amount of
(32:38):
money.
Every now and then, I'll sendthem in a boost I need to claim my
knighthood.
I'm actually a knight.
I guess I'm a silent knight atthis point because I've never sent
in money and going, hey, Iwant my ring.
And then that whole nine yards.
So, you know, we're going tohave to be patient.
I know it's only till Januarywhen Albie will close.
Hopefully, you know, this willbe put in place.
That's going to be the.
(32:59):
The hard part because the, theprocess is, let's all beat the snot
out of this, make sure it'sthe best solution that we feel we
have for now.
And then the apps are going tohave to update.
And then I would believe mediahosts like I know Captivate has a
place where you put in your information.
I'm assuming that's going tohave to change to connect to this
(33:22):
new style of receiving payments.
So we're all going to kind ofhave to scramble.
And it may be that in somecases, not everybody gets updated
by, like, your wallet mightbreak for a small amount of time.
Hopefully small, where noteverybody can meet the deadlines.
Because, look, it's theholiday season.
We all have lives and most ofus that work in this space have other
(33:44):
jobs.
So it's going to beinteresting to see.
So if I was an AI person, Iwould say to strap yourself in.
It's going to be maybe a bumpyroad, but we're going to have to
do a deep dive into the new technology.
You know, every time I saydeep dive now, I'm like, oh, I'm
so AI.
Ugh.
But you know what's not AI, Dave?
If people wanted to do a deepdive and learn how to refine their
(34:08):
craft of podcasting and theircontent and either start or improve
their podcast, where shouldthey go?
I think a good place to startwould be the school of podcasting
where you get step by stepcourses, you get an awesome community,
and you get unlimited.
Yes.
That's not a typo consultingwith me.
And if I wanted to maybe seehow my show is doing, maybe even
(34:31):
use something that trackscharts or maybe gives me voicemail
or reviews all in one place.
Daniel, do you know ofanything that could do that?
Absolutely.
Go to pod gagement.com nowwith charts and ranking features
and SEO tracking featurescoming soon too.
So think podcast engagement.
You want podcast engagement,you want to grow it and improve your
(34:53):
podcast and grow your podcast?
Go to pod engagement.com sospeaking of.
Satoshis and all that funstuff, Dino, do we have any boostograms?
We did.
We got two boostograms.
Thank you very much.
Especially since this might bea dying breed, the boostogram thing.
No, no, Boostograms aren'tgoing away, but method might change.
(35:13):
We got a boostogram from RandyBlack, 1000 SATs.
He said another great podcast.
Keep up the great work, guys,and go podcasting.
Excellent.
Thank you, randy.
Also, we got 777 sats fromSteve Webb, Sir OG Godcaster, who
said, love the show, guys.
Thank you.
We love you too.
Absolutely, Steve Webs.
(35:34):
That is an OG right there.
He goes back to that was thevery first whatever it was new media
something expo with thepodcast brothers.
Because it was Tim Berkwin's.
We'll dust off 20 year knowledge.
There was a guy named TimBerkwin and Amir.
They were the podcast brothers.
And they were the guys thatheld kind of the first big podcast
(35:54):
meetup.
It was in I want Ontario.
Doesn't sound right, but maybe that's.
Yeah, that's what everyonetalks about, Ontario.
Okay, there you go.
Well, you know, it's 24 yearsold now.
The memories aren't quite asclear as they used to be.
So as we record this, we're inDecember and so what we're going
to do, we're not going to doan episode anymore in December, I
(36:15):
guess as a way of saying that.
But here's what you can do ifyou want.
You can go tofutureofpodcasting.net follow and
if you're not following theshow, you can and actually comb through
our back catalog, maybe findsome old ones.
Daniel mentioned that when theshow first started, it wasn't called
the Future of Podcasting.
(36:35):
You can go back to the veryfirst show, although that would be
bad.
But you could and cherry pickour old episodes there if you want
to while you're waiting foranother episode to come back.
So what we can do at thispoint, it's almost a dad joke.
It's so bad.
You know, we'll see you next year.
Get it?
Because in January.
Yeah, okay, excellent.
But I think that's going to doit for episode 54 of the Future of
(36:59):
Podcasting.
Everybody have a Merry Christmas.
I always say.
Happy Kwanza, Massaca.
I think that covers everybody.
And we will see you in 2025.
And a happy New Year.
Hey, Daniel, what's in your wallet?
This is the Future ofPodcasting, where we ponder what
awaits the podcasters of today.
From the school of podcasting,here's Dave Jackson.
And from the Audacity toPodcast, here's Daniel J.
Lewis.
Daniel Future of podcasting,episode 54.
(00:21):
We're talking wallets today.
That's fun, but not the kindof wallet you get.
Although you can't see this, Ihave the fun filled.
What is the name of this thingwhen we talk in wallets?
It is the big skinny wallet,because I used to have the George
Costanza one, you know, thatyou put in your back pocket and would
break your hip.
(00:42):
So they're not a sponsor, butthey should be.
Big skinny wallets are myfavorite when I have one for my the
back pocket of my jeans.
We're talking wallets in thecloud for Bitcoin, et cetera, et
cetera.
And the good news is we don'thave an official solution, but there
is kind of a light at the endof the tunnel.
Since Walletmageddon orwhatever we're going to.
(01:04):
Call that, let's back up andsay what the problem is.
Albie Wallets are going away.
The thing that, like so muchof the podcasting 2.0 streaming satoshis
was built on this idea of AlbyWallets and something similar to
that too, that's basicallygoing away.
Well, Alby Wallets are going away.
There is this Albie Hub thingthat is easier now to run than it
(01:29):
was when it first came out,but it's still geeky.
But it's more possible to do.
If this is language thatyou're familiar with, then you'd
be comfortable doing this.
You can run Albi Wallet Hubfrom a Docker image.
So if you want to rent a cheapserver, you know, a $2 server somewhere,
and run Albi Hub on that asyour wallet, you could do that.
(01:51):
Is that necessarily the best thing?
I don't know.
But with some of these taxlaws and crypto laws and financial
laws and all kinds of thingsout there, there are all of these
concerns around the legalityof some of these solutions, or if
someone really wants to getinto this business of basically hosting
wallets, because that makesthem a sort of financial provider,
(02:12):
which means they have to doall of these other things and that
means expensive stuff.
So all that to say it'scomplicated, it's messy for the people
creating these wallets thatwe've used.
And it basically means thatwhat we've been doing for now a couple
Or a few years for the Valuefor Value exchange streaming payments
(02:35):
to podcasters through thepodcasting 2.0 technology.
That's going to end.
However, I think that's a good thing.
We've talked about this inthis podcast before, where we've
said, if we have to move awayfrom this, it will inspire new innovation.
And, Dave, why did you startthe future of podcasting?
(02:59):
Originally, it was under adifferent name, but why did you start
it?
Yeah, because I didn't know athing about crypto.
That was the meme that wentout, and I was like, well, I guess
I'm going to jump in and.
Because there's only one wayto find out, and that's to try using
it.
And there was.
What's the telecommution.
There's some sort of tela.
Something telegram involvedand all sorts of stuff.
(03:21):
And then I.
Voltron or volt voltage orthere's some sort of thing.
And they're like, wow, youstarted your own node?
I'm like, I did.
Okay, if you say so.
So, yeah, it wasn't really easy.
And then when Albie camealong, it was like, oh, just set
this up and you get this emailand you copy and paste that.
And it made.
It didn't make it easy, but itmade it easier.
(03:42):
And then what was interestingis after everybody kind of like,
hey, this is easier.
Wow.
And then we all jumped on it.
And I remember the first timeAdam said, you know, we've kind of
taken this thing that's allabout being decentralized and it's
kind of centralized.
And I went, yeah, that's not agood thing when you think about it.
And I was.
I know.
Whoever voltage I think itwas, I was using, but that was like
(04:04):
20 bucks a month.
And I was like, well, thisthing, they just take a piece of
my action, I'm assuming.
Or they remember when I metthem, I said, what's the business
model?
And they're like, we're goingto worry about it later.
And I was like, oh, that'salways kind of, you know, so they're
great guys and, you know,they've given you a solution if you.
Again, if you're kind ofnerdy, to get Albie Hub, I have no
(04:26):
idea what I'm doing.
I just asked them, I'm like,hey, I just want to be able to receive
sats like I used to.
And they're like, oh, this?
And I'm like, okay.
And I have no idea, like, ifthey said, go in and change the perplexiflexer
to, you know, minus gigawattsgonna be like, I have no idea.
Recalibrate the flux capacitor.
Exactly.
I'd be.
I have no idea what you're talking.
(04:47):
I still don't know.
You know, I, I know enough tobe dangerous and if you got a good
help section, I can probablyfigure it out, but.
And from what I get, we'repaying them in crypto and I'm on
like a three month deepdiscount, but once the price goes
back to normal, I'm going tohave to.
And again, kind of much the problem.
I'm going to have to transfermoney from my bank account to my
(05:09):
strike account so I can thenpay their invoice in crypto.
So that whole thing is like, Idon't know how it's going to work,
if it's going to automaticallytry and if I don't have enough money
in my strike, it's going to bounce.
I'll have to figure that outwhen the, the bill comes through.
But I appreciate the effortthat they've put in.
(05:29):
You know, we wouldn't havegotten this far without the lovely
boys over at Alby.
But when I saw the price and Ifinally, whatever it's, it's like
20 something dollars a monthand I'm like, I'm not getting anywhere
near that, like even if Ibroke even.
But.
So for now I'll probably keepusing it just because I guess the
alternative, that's my wholequestion, would be to either open
(05:51):
a Fountain wallet or somethingat True Fans with Sam.
And I'm not sure either one ofthose is set up to be.
I know listeners can put moneyin to support the podcasters, but
I'm not sure podcasters canuse it as kind of a, an input for
crypto.
I'm not sure how Fountainworks exactly, but I know Oscar and
(06:16):
that was the thing.
Oscar was on the latestepisode of the podcasting 2.0 show.
And to his credit, and this iswhere Oscar really, I mean, the whole
community, it's interestinghow we all work together and basically
Oscar came up with somethingbecause he could have just said,
hey, everybody got to use Fountain.
I know we're going to tradeone centralized version for another
one, but he's like, oh, youcan use Fountain, but here's this
(06:38):
other thing you can use.
So he actually made somethingthat might end up being his competitor.
And I was like, that justshows the heart of somebody who does
something that's good for the space.
Not so much great for himbecause it could be a competitor,
but I just thought it was nicethat he was like, all right, somebody's
got to have a solution.
And I know it has something todo with Nostr, in name only, but
(07:00):
not really Nostr, whateverthat is.
And he kind of put it outthere, said, hey, here's the solution,
and we can all look at it.
And most really good ideasdon't come in the first draft.
It's when somebody looks at itand goes, oh, this is pretty neat.
I wonder if we could get it todo this, or what if we tied it in
with this or that whole thing?
So that's from what I couldhear without really understanding
(07:22):
most of what they were talkingabout with the details, I was like,
I was just happy that we havepeople working on it.
And it sounds like they havesomething that if they have to, because
come January, whatever thedate was, I want to say 16th, it's
going away.
So we got to have something in place.
And now it's a matter of allhands on deck to kick the tires on
this and see if this is thebest idea for now.
(07:45):
And then we have to leaveenough time for app developers to
be able to rework their appsto somehow use whatever new format
that's going to be in place.
Yeah, and it's that firstdraft, second draft sort of thing
that has me excited because Ifeel like we got too into and too
committed to the first draft,which was the whole streaming satoshis
(08:09):
and the Albie approach to this.
And I know there were otherthings to it.
So this isn't.
Everything is on Albie's shoulders.
It's not like that.
But we did build around thisone model and really put all of the
focus and attention on thisone approach, and it was a very geeky
approach.
And like in my keynotepresentation years ago, my prediction
(08:30):
about the future of podcastingis that the technology will disappear
whenever you build somethingcompletely brand new on the cutting
edge, the technology is veryvisible, and the geeks love getting
into the technology.
That's like why podcasting inthe beginning was mostly tech shows,
because it was all the nerdsand geeks who could figure out how
(08:51):
to podcast and publish it.
But then, as podcasting hasbecome far more accessible since
then, we've seen more peoplewho know nothing about the technology,
being able to get their voicesout there through podcasting.
I think that is wonderful.
They shouldn't have to knowthe tech.
Same thing here in podcasting 2.0.
With a lot of these featureswe're making, I really think the
(09:12):
approach needs to be that theyshouldn't have to know the tech.
They shouldn't have tounderstand how it works.
It should be as simple asclicking a few buttons or filling
in a few fields.
Not this stuff like having toknow are you using keysend or node
or what is your.
All of this stuff making it simpler.
And I'm excited about thisbecause it's forcing everyone to
(09:36):
get on board with coming upwith something new.
And there have been multiplesuggestions of different approaches
that could be taken to this.
One of the things that's beentalked about is right now, what podcasting
2.0 is doing with thestreaming satoshis isn't being done
almost anywhere else.
And that is where it isactually streaming the payments from
(09:59):
the listener's wallet to thepodcaster's wallet and all of the
other wallets that might be inthe splits as well.
And that's happening every minute.
That's not being done in otherplaces as people are reevaluating
things.
That's one of the things thatpeople have thought about is, well,
do we really.
Do we really need the abilityto stream the payments every minute?
(10:22):
Why not just count up?
Like you have a ticker that atthe end of the episode or whenever
you pause an episode or stopor delete it or whatever, whenever
you move on from an episodefor whatever reason, that's when
the payment is sent.
Just one single payment forhowever long you've listened.
So it's still the effect of astreaming payment where someone is
(10:44):
paying you based on how muchthey listen to the podcast or paying
automatically.
The actual implementation is different.
There are some other ideasthat are being discussed that I really
like these ideas becauseanother problem that we've created
is the split apocalypse or theoverload of splits.
Like, well, let's be honest.
(11:06):
If you look at the podcasting2.0 show for this and actually look
at their splits, it can looklike a mess sometimes because there
are so many splits in the RSS feed.
And the reason for that isthat Adam and Dave are being so generous
to the ecosystem.
(11:26):
So they want other people toget a split of the money that's coming
in.
And that's great.
I'm not saying that idea isbad, the implementation of that.
I think when we came up withthe idea of splits, we were initially
thinking, you put yourself inthere and your co host, and then
maybe someone gets a fee for aservice they're providing and that's
(11:47):
it.
I don't think we anticipatedthe two dozen splits and splitting
things up on the chapter level.
Or individual sections of an episode.
So these are uses that havecome out in the last couple of years
that we've then squeezed intothe way we were doing things because
we had already committed tothat way of doing things.
(12:07):
Well, if we have to change theway we're doing things, then we can
also reevaluate ourimplementations for these other things.
And one of the ideas that Ireally like is where.
Now, I'm not completely clearon the technical explanation for
this, but here's theconceptual explanation is where instead
of putting all your splits inyour RSS feed, you put a single.
(12:31):
We'll just call it like apayment destination.
And a payment is sent to thatsingle destination, and then that
destination handles where thesplits go.
And it could even be possiblethat that destination could receive
multiple types of payment.
So let's just throw this out there.
(12:53):
It could receive satoshis,which are small portions of Bitcoin.
It could receive Ethereum,maybe other kinds of cryptocurrency.
It could receive a PayPal payment.
Maybe it integrates nice withVemo and Stripe and other things
like that.
Now, how technically possiblethat is, I don't know, but that's
(13:13):
what I'm talking about.
That could potentially bebuilt into this, where it's then
this one universal end pointwhere it's like, send your money
here.
We'll figure out how toactually convert that and use it.
I think that's a much betterapproach to this.
And that's the kind of thingthat people are talking about because
(13:33):
we're having to throw out theold models.
Old models.
This is all brand new.
So it's.
We can't really call it old.
We just can say the currentmodel rather.
So we have to look at this.
It's like a door is closing.
And instead of just trying tolook for an open window or build
another door, we're saying,you know what?
(13:54):
As long as that door isclosed, how about we rebuild the
whole house and make the wholehouse better and with a better door
on it, too?
And it is.
It's amazing that it works.
But when we brought music intothis, and the fact that you could
send a payment to a band andthat band could then split it amongst
(14:14):
the members, I was like,that's really cool.
And now looking back, I go,but did that complicate things?
Like, we haven't really gotfull adoption of the streaming sats
in the first place, and we'realready adding more complexity to
it.
And I'm like, I mean, I really do.
I love the idea But I'm like,maybe not.
(14:34):
You know what I mean?
It's like, maybe it shouldjust be here.
Here's 20 bucks for the band.
You guys argue about it.
The drummer is going to get less.
That's just in the handbook.
But it'll be interesting to see.
Can we take all this progressthat we've done with the splits?
Because I really do think isthat the magic switching wallet where
splits came in for somethingthat was magic.
(14:55):
So I don't want to get rid ofthe magic.
But it might be one of thosewhere we have to step back and go,
maybe we come back to this later.
Let's just get it working nowwith just sending a payment and then
later we can figure out whatto do with the splits.
We'll have to see.
But I haven't looked at the.
Because I'm not going tounderstand it anyway.
The thing that Oscar made.
(15:16):
But I should go, at leastsniff it so I can go, yes, I don't
understand this, but I lovethe fact I know it's on GitHub or
something that you can, if youare of that persuasion, you can go
play with it.
So that'll be fun to see whatcomes about.
And this is the way thatprogramming works many times where
you make something rough inthe beginning that gets by and does
(15:37):
its job.
And let me self promote herefor a moment.
Podgagement.
So has the new charts andrankings feature that I started building
that five years ago.
That's why my chart data forPOD gaugement goes back five years
now.
The way that I stored all ofthat data for all of these years
(15:57):
was not the best way.
So it's taking a long time toconvert all of that data over to
be usable.
But that code that I made fiveyears ago, I look at that now and
it is horrible.
It is embarrassingly bad, butit's getting the job done.
It's been working for five years.
(16:19):
But now that I look at it withnow five years of experience, like
that was my first app that Iprogrammed completely by myself with
my new knowledge of theprogramming language that I was using.
And I made it work well.
Now I've learned a whole lotmore since then.
I've observed a lot moredifferent ways of doing things.
I've learned better practices.
(16:40):
Even just the file structureof these different files that are
parts of my whole program,it's a mess.
But I have a much betterstructure now.
So when I can, I'm going torebuild it into a better structure
and optimize it and find waysto make it go faster and to be more
thorough and to be moreautomated in certain aspects, because
(17:05):
that's what you can do.
You.
You build it rough.
It's that minimum viableproduct idea that it might be really
rough in the beginning, butit's just getting it out there, the
proof of concept, or gettingsomething working, and then you're
building on that in the future.
I know some people hate thegaming industry for doing this, though,
(17:25):
where a lot of companiesrelease games that basically aren't
finished.
The games of our days, Dave,when we played video games as kids,
you got it.
And that's what you got, iswhat you got on a disc, on a cd,
on a cartridge, whatever itwas that was on that, that's what
you got.
(17:46):
There were no DLCs, there wereno patches.
The companies had to make surethe game worked from the start.
Now, the games were a lotsimpler back then, so it was easier
for that.
But, you know, nowadays someof these games, they're released
and they have so many bugs, somany problems, and it takes sometimes
years to work out all of these things.
(18:07):
Sometimes it's justunanticipated stuff, untested stuff.
Sometimes it's just theydecide we have to put it out there
rough and we'll fix it inpost, that kind of thing.
Like we do sometimes inpodcasting, where we just record
a horrible show and think wecan fix it up in the editing.
Sometimes you can, sometimesyou can't.
But here we are in this nextphase where we can reevaluate these
(18:32):
things and think about, do wereally want to put so many splits
inside the RSS feed, or can wesomehow delegate that elsewhere?
Do we really want to be tied?
And the bitcoin idea,regardless of whether we use bitcoin
and satoshis, does theaudience need to know it's bitcoin
(18:53):
and satoshis?
Could we instead just talkabout credits or tokens, even though
it might be exactly the sameas bitcoin?
So maybe instead of satoshis,like, maybe we say a credit is worth
a thousand satoshis.
So then you're sending onecredit to a podcaster and you're
really sending 1000 satoshis,but it's an equal value like that.
(19:17):
That kind of thing couldhappen too, where we can just really
reevaluate a lot of thesethings to try and make it easier
for everyone else so that itdoesn't require so much learning
in order to just get moneyfrom people.
Because I really think, andthis is the direction we're going
(19:39):
now, it needs to be as easyfor the audience as pretty much they
just press pay in their appand they connect a payment method
on the first time and anytimeafter that, everything else is either
automated or just a simplebutton press.
None of this having totransfer money from one place to
(19:59):
another or convert it from onething to another, even having to
think about that.
And some people are afraid ofbitcoin, whatever reason.
We could call it anything else.
Like James Gridland talksabout it, like Internet tokens or
kind of like circus tickets orfair tickets.
(20:19):
We could call it anything else.
And I think some people wouldbe less afraid of it, but they hear
Bitcoin, and some people areafraid just because of whatever reasons
that has bad connotations intheir mind.
We could move beyond that, andI think we should, so that they don't
have to think about theunderlying technology.
It's just like when we sendeach other money, we don't really
(20:44):
think about how it's converting.
Or like with Apple pay, forexample, from iPhone to iPhone, or
Google Pay from Android deviceto Android device, you don't have
to transfer money from yourbank account into an Apple account
and then into your iPhone andthen send it to the other person
who then has to transfer itand convert it and do all of this
(21:06):
stuff.
It's pretty much straight frommy bank account to your bank account
via this other technology.
Yeah, that's what we're aimingfor, I guess.
The other thing I just wantedto kind of say for anyone who's.
I know for a while when wedidn't hear anything, we kind of
knew this wasn't going to work.
And they were like, okay,well, what are we going to replace
(21:28):
it with?
And nothing really came about.
And then nothing can.
You know, people are busy,it's that time of year.
And so I could see where I waseven kind of going, ooh, maybe this
particular part of 2.0 isn'tgoing to work.
And if you think about it, youmade a great point.
When I first startedpodcasting, I used to keep every
(21:49):
file I used for that episode,and I would export it as a WAV file,
and then I would export it asan MP3.
Why?
Because I didn't know if Ineeded them or not.
And I might.
I don't know if they're goingto build a Dave Jackson library or
something in the future.
60 Minutes is going to call.
I don't know what I wasthinking, but I was like, no, I need
a wave version of this.
(22:10):
And I look back now and go, why?
Why did I do that?
And because you didn't know.
You're like, well, I want tokeep this in case I need it.
And now once I finish anepisode, I Keep the finished MP3
and the rest is out the door.
I'm like, I don't.
You know, I've never once hadto go, oh, wait, I need just the
recorded version of me fromepisode 72.
(22:31):
No, I don't need these anymore.
So this is kind of one ofthose times when we look back and
go, oh, you know what?
Maybe we don't need this.
We thought we needed it, butwe don't.
So let's move forward in amore efficient way, in a way that
makes more sense and maybe isa little more open and able to connect
more things.
So that's the other thing.
I was like, okay, this is just.
(22:51):
It's just a little learningcurve, a little speed bump, you know,
that we go, oh, yeah, wethought that was going to work.
And then it didn't.
So we then switched to that.
So you can think of it asyou're living through history right
now.
And the other thing I noticed,it's going to be annoying.
A lot of people are going tocomplain, but I know, is it.
(23:11):
I want to say Verge.
Is it Verge or Verve when wetalk about the online.
The Verge.
Yeah, the Verge.
Okay.
They have announced thatthey're going to go behind a paywall,
and so is Bloomberg.
So all the great podcastingarticles about from Ashley Carmen,
they're going behind a paywall.
And I'm kind of like, I don'treally want Bloomberg.
I just want, like, can Ashleygo solo on Substack or something?
(23:34):
To where I just.
But I saw that I was kind oflike, oh, man, another subscription.
And I'm like, I think that'sjust the way things are going to
go.
We're going to get nickeledand dime to death.
And the things you want,you'll pay for, and the things you
don't, you won't.
But at least the idea of, hey,maybe you should pay your podcast
or something hopefully won'tseem like such a foreign idea.
(23:55):
As opposed to, well, they'resupposed to be free.
It's like, no, no, you pay forthings that you value.
And so I'm hoping to seepeople that pay for other subscriptions
are going to see this as justlike, oh, yeah, things that deliver
value, I need to pay for.
So I'm hoping that kind ofspills over into the mentality as
(24:16):
we start to move this way whenpeople Go.
What do you mean?
I have to get a cash appaccount or strike or whatever it
is.
It's like, no, this is howthis works.
And those that want to paywill go through the extra steps,
and those that don't, well,even right now, I like Castamatic.
That's one of my faves.
Right now I'm using PodcastGuru, but the developer of Castamatic
(24:39):
is in Italy.
And Strike, one of the thingsused in the proposed solution isn't
available in Italy, so hecan't even test his app.
So that's going to be, in away, as you said earlier, okay, that's
a closed door.
That means I want to sayFrederick or I forget the developer
of Castomatic.
(24:59):
That guy's going to have tofind something different.
And so he might end up comingup with a completely different solution
that's better.
So it'll be interesting tosee, because if you're in a maze
and you come to a dead end,you don't go, oh, well, I guess we'll
just sit here and die of starvation.
You know, you go back and finda different way outside of the maze.
So it'll be fun to watch.
Yeah.
(25:19):
And that this wholecomplicated system has already been
received with such enthusiasmand used in so many places to some
good success, shows it reallyproves the concept that people are
willing to do this.
Like you consider a podcast,like the buzzcast from our friends
(25:40):
at Buzzsprout, where, yes,they have an audience of podcasters,
but they were doing thispodcast before the podcasting 2.0
stuff came out, before theValue for Value.
And I don't think they everasked for money or donations from
their audience before theValue for Value feature in podcasting
(26:03):
2.0 came out.
But when the streamingsatoshis and booster grams did come
out, then they did startsupporting that.
And their audience, eventhough they don't get super techie,
their audience still startedgiving them money because they were
using this thing.
And I know that's on thefringe because their audience is
(26:24):
an audience of podcasters, andwe podcasters are more on the fringe
of the technologies and such,but still, it shows that it's doable
and people are interested in it.
It's like, we've proven thatthere is a need for this.
There are ways to do this.
We've had success with a way.
(26:47):
Now we have to find adifferent way, and we will find a
different way.
And I think it will end upbeing a better way because we've
gotten phase one out.
We've discovered new ways ofusing it.
We've discovered new needsthat whatever has to accommodate.
So I think it will become awhole lot easier.
(27:08):
The biggest hurdle to a lot ofother things, like, a lot of people
might think, well, why don'tyou just use Stripe and PayPal?
The biggest hurdle is not the percentage.
A percentage is fine.
Percentages, I think, aregood, like a.
A fee, a percentage ofwhatever is being given.
A percentage fee is taken out.
(27:28):
That's fine.
What's not good are some ofthese systems take also an additional
flat rate on top of that.
Like PayPal and Stripe areclose to 50 cents per transaction,
plus the percentage fee.
So if someone, for example,wanted to give 50 cents to every
(27:49):
podcast episode that theylisten to, that's just not doable
through PayPal.
Right?
And 50 cents, I know that is tiny.
Yes, I know that.
But as we can get into thismindset and more and more people
will start to think about thisas, how much do I value what I'm
getting?
This is where the real conceptof value for value is.
(28:09):
It is not in streaming satoshis.
It's the mindset.
It's, I value this thing I'mgetting, therefore, I want to give
something of value back.
We're creating a sense ofreciprocity in people and pointing
that out to them to say, hey,we've given you all of this value.
Like, just recently, OvercastMarco announced that he was raising
(28:32):
the price of Overcast, raisingit by 50%, which is $5 a year.
So it's going from $10 a yearto $15 a year.
$15 a year.
And do you know how many hoursOvercast runs on my device?
(28:55):
Yeah, I mean, we're talking.
I get thousands of hours ofcontent from Overcast per year.
Is that worth $15 to me?
Yeah, it's worth more than that.
So if he raised the price tomore than that, I would be willing
to pay it, because I value hisapp and his service like that.
(29:17):
And so bringing it back to thepodcast and podcasters, as I think
more audiences get used toseeing options to pay for things,
whether that's with bonuscontent or it's just giving money
back, I think the more andmore that becomes commonplace, the
more they'll be willing to do it.
And maybe even if they cansee, oh, I can give just 50 cents
(29:41):
an episode, I can spare 50cents an episode.
And like even me, and I'vereferenced before, cash flow is just
an issue right now.
But even me, when I thinkabout, could I give just even just
50 cents to each podcast.
I listen to 50 cents a montheven to each podcast.
(30:04):
Yeah, I can do 50 cents.
You know, that's just shakeout my couch every month, and probably
more than that will fall outof it every month.
I could do that now, gettingto that process of being able to
support all of those podcasts,that's where the technology comes
in.
But this mindset is what weneed to train our audience.
(30:26):
But not even saying, hey, giveus 50 cents, but leaving it open.
And this is again, the conceptof value for value is what is this
worth to you?
And would you want toconsider, can you give that back
if it's been worth that to you?
To some people?
Like, you listen to the noAgenda show and you hear some people
(30:47):
giving thousands of dollars inone single payment because they feel
the podcast is worth that muchto them.
And I saw the same thing whenI was doing a TV show fan podcast
about the TV show once upon atime, that when we started accepting
donations, I was amazed.
Some people were paying us$100 a month for a free podcast about
(31:12):
a free TV show.
And this was before I waslistening to no Agenda or really
familiar with the concept ofvalue for value, even though I was
basically doing it.
It's just when people havethat opportunity and we can make
it easy for them to give back,they'll be far more likely to do
it of whatever value amountthey attribute to that thing.
(31:34):
It's funny, because on onehand, we all work really hard on
our craft and our content, andthen when people pay us for it, we're
like, hey, like, somebody findthis valuable?
And I'm like, well, yeah, you put.
You put a lot of time andeffort into it.
It's worth something.
I know.
The thing I love about atleast you mentioned the no Agenda
(31:56):
show is the insane backcatalog they have.
So they'll mention somethingin the, you know, news today, and
John and Adam would be like,wait a minute, didn't they say the
direct opposite, like, fourmonths ago?
And within seconds, Adam hasthis clip.
And that's just something themainstream media doesn't do.
They don't hold themselves accountable.
(32:17):
But John and Adam do.
And they're like, yep, that'swhat he said.
That's the direct opposite, orwhatever it was.
So.
And that, to me, is valuable.
I'm like, oh, I'm not gettingthis in mainstream news or even on
some of the kind of specialtynews shows.
I'm like, I just don't getthat kind of information.
So I know I'm set up on PayPalto give them a certain amount of
(32:38):
money.
Every now and then, I'll sendthem in a boost I need to claim my
knighthood.
I'm actually a knight.
I guess I'm a silent knight atthis point because I've never sent
in money and going, hey, Iwant my ring.
And then that whole nine yards.
So, you know, we're going tohave to be patient.
I know it's only till Januarywhen Albie will close.
Hopefully, you know, this willbe put in place.
That's going to be the.
(32:59):
The hard part because the, theprocess is, let's all beat the snot
out of this, make sure it'sthe best solution that we feel we
have for now.
And then the apps are going tohave to update.
And then I would believe mediahosts like I know Captivate has a
place where you put in your information.
I'm assuming that's going tohave to change to connect to this
(33:22):
new style of receiving payments.
So we're all going to kind ofhave to scramble.
And it may be that in somecases, not everybody gets updated
by, like, your wallet mightbreak for a small amount of time.
Hopefully small, where noteverybody can meet the deadlines.
Because, look, it's theholiday season.
We all have lives and most ofus that work in this space have other
(33:44):
jobs.
So it's going to beinteresting to see.
So if I was an AI person, Iwould say to strap yourself in.
It's going to be maybe a bumpyroad, but we're going to have to
do a deep dive into the new technology.
You know, every time I saydeep dive now, I'm like, oh, I'm
so AI.
Ugh.
But you know what's not AI, Dave?
If people wanted to do a deepdive and learn how to refine their
(34:08):
craft of podcasting and theircontent and either start or improve
their podcast, where shouldthey go?
I think a good place to startwould be the school of podcasting
where you get step by stepcourses, you get an awesome community,
and you get unlimited.
Yes.
That's not a typo consultingwith me.
And if I wanted to maybe seehow my show is doing, maybe even
(34:31):
use something that trackscharts or maybe gives me voicemail
or reviews all in one place.
Daniel, do you know ofanything that could do that?
Absolutely.
Go to pod gagement.com nowwith charts and ranking features
and SEO tracking featurescoming soon too.
So think podcast engagement.
You want podcast engagement,you want to grow it and improve your
(34:53):
podcast and grow your podcast?
Go to pod engagement.com sospeaking of.
Satoshis and all that funstuff, Dino, do we have any boostograms?
We did.
We got two boostograms.
Thank you very much.
Especially since this might bea dying breed, the boostogram thing.
No, no, Boostograms aren'tgoing away, but method might change.
(35:13):
We got a boostogram from RandyBlack, 1000 SATs.
He said another great podcast.
Keep up the great work, guys,and go podcasting.
Excellent.
Thank you, randy.
Also, we got 777 sats fromSteve Webb, Sir OG Godcaster, who
said, love the show, guys.
Thank you.
We love you too.
Absolutely, Steve Webs.
(35:34):
That is an OG right there.
He goes back to that was thevery first whatever it was new media
something expo with thepodcast brothers.
Because it was Tim Berkwin's.
We'll dust off 20 year knowledge.
There was a guy named TimBerkwin and Amir.
They were the podcast brothers.
And they were the guys thatheld kind of the first big podcast
(35:54):
meetup.
It was in I want Ontario.
Doesn't sound right, but maybe that's.
Yeah, that's what everyonetalks about, Ontario.
Okay, there you go.
Well, you know, it's 24 yearsold now.
The memories aren't quite asclear as they used to be.
So as we record this, we're inDecember and so what we're going
to do, we're not going to doan episode anymore in December, I
(36:15):
guess as a way of saying that.
But here's what you can do ifyou want.
You can go tofutureofpodcasting.net follow and
if you're not following theshow, you can and actually comb through
our back catalog, maybe findsome old ones.
Daniel mentioned that when theshow first started, it wasn't called
the Future of Podcasting.
(36:35):
You can go back to the veryfirst show, although that would be
bad.
But you could and cherry pickour old episodes there if you want
to while you're waiting foranother episode to come back.
So what we can do at thispoint, it's almost a dad joke.
It's so bad.
You know, we'll see you next year.
Get it?
Because in January.
Yeah, okay, excellent.
But I think that's going to doit for episode 54 of the Future of
(36:59):
Podcasting.
Everybody have a Merry Christmas.
I always say.
Happy Kwanza, Massaca.
I think that covers everybody.
And we will see you in 2025.
And a happy New Year.
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