May 14, 2025 • 49 mins
So, let’s get real about the podcasting scene and this crazy concept of ‘value for value.’ It’s like, when you hear it, you might think, ‘Oh great, another buzzword,’ but hold your horses! Our hosts, Dave and Daniel, are here to unpack this idea with a good dose of sarcasm and wit.
They start by discussing how many podcasters feel their legitimacy hinges on securing that sweet sponsorship deal. Seriously, why do we still tie our worth to advertisers? It’s like saying your podcast is only good if someone’s paying you to talk about toothpaste. No thanks! They argue that the real value comes from the connection you build with your listeners, which is way more important than any sponsor deal could ever be.
Then, they get into the tech aspect, where things get spicy with the mention of streaming satoshis. Like, what even is that? It’s a way to send tiny payments while you listen, but the hosts get into the nitty-gritty of why that might not be the golden ticket we all hope for. They share a laugh about how certain payment platforms have these ridiculous fees that make micropayments basically non-existent. Can you imagine trying to send your podcaster a couple of cents, only for the platform to gobble it all up? It’s a comedy of errors waiting to happen!
By the end, they’re pondering the future of this ‘value for value’ model and whether it’ll actually pan out or if we’ll just be stuck in the same old cycle of sponsorship and ads. They’re like, ‘What if we could create a world where podcasters are rewarded for the actual value they bring?’ It’s a hopeful, yet ironic look at the absurdity of our current monetization strategies. Yeah, we’re all in for the ride, but let’s hope the destination is worth it!
Takeaways:
- The future of podcasting is a wild ride, with the concept of value for value leading the charge, but don't be surprised if it gets bumpy along the way.
- Value for value isn't just about cash; it's about the joy you bring to listeners, even if you're not rolling in the dough from sponsors.
- Remember, just because your podcast isn't a cash cow doesn't mean it's not valuable; sometimes fun is worth more than money, right?
- Streaming payments could revolutionize podcast monetization, but you know, only if the tech doesn't implode on itself first.
- Watch out for the 'donate' trap! It could get you in trouble with the tax man, so maybe stick to saying 'give back' instead.
- The whole payment landscape for podcasts is changing, and not just because Apple got slapped with a court ruling; it's about making things easy for everyone involved.
Your Hosts
Dave Jackson, host and educator at School of Podcasting™
Daniel J. Lewis, host and educator at The Audacity to Podcast® and creator of Podgagement®
Support The Show
Daniel
Podgagement - Boost Your Audience Engagement
Social Subscribe and Follow Plugin
Dave
New Podcast Apps
Listen to this...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
The risky future of value for value.
This is the future ofpodcasting, where we ponder what
awaits the podcasters of today.
From the school of podcasting,here's Dave Jackson. And from the
Audacity to Podcast, here'sDaniel J. Lewis. Daniel, future of
podcasting. I think we're upto episode 58. We're talking about
(00:23):
the Risky future. Questionmark. A value for value. Good to
see you, buddy.
It's always great to talkabout the future of podcasting. The
past, the present, and thefuture. Value for value. First thing
here, Dave. I. I chucklebecause sometimes whenever you talk
about value for value, youassociate it with one specific thing,
(00:43):
and I want you to embrace thatright now and tell me, what do you
always associate value for value?
Oh, for me, it's beenstreaming satoshis from day one when
I was like, as soon as Iheard, the longer they listen, the
more you make, I was like,okay, you have my official, undivided
attention. Because to me, thatwas a way for every podcaster to
(01:07):
make even the smallest amount.It was just. And I. I kind of get
that. Some people feel thatkind of acknowledgement, like, my
podcast is only legit, which Ithink is kind of sad, but I think
a lot of people have thismindset. My podcast is only legit
when I have a sponsor, if I'mmaking money of some sort. Because
(01:29):
I'm like, you could just betalking about anything, and you bring
joy into somebody's life.That's value. It's not really, but
we all kind of come from thatmindset of radio. And I don't know
how we fall into that trap,but I see that a lot where people
are like, well, I just saw ittoday on Reddit. The guy's like,
I've been doing this for fiveyears. I'm only getting 40 downloads
an episode. And, you know, hewas kind of down in the dumps. He's
(01:53):
like, but I'm having a lot offun, and that's why I do it. And
I was like, well, there yougo. I ride my bike in the summer.
I don't make a dime from it.In fact, it cost me money. But I
have fun and it's goodexercise. So I've never had anybody
come up to me and go, oh, Isee you're riding your bike. How
much money make you doingthat? I'm not. I'm losing money.
I had to buy new tires orbrakes or something. So, yeah. But
(02:14):
for me, it's always beensatoshi. So when the whole Albie
Albymageddon came and, youknow, I realized there's still Fountain
and there's still, you know,other apps, but I understand why
they quit. I was kind of like,oh, and then I know Dave. Remember
when Dave had some companythat he was working with that he
had an NDA, and like, everyweek I was tuning in, like, is the
(02:36):
NDA done? Is like, can we hearwhat's. This big company was coming.
And then whoever it wasapparently kind of backed out or
just. We never heard about it.
Well, here's the thing aboutNDAs. No one should really know that
you're under an NDA. So justthat we know nothing about the NDA
(02:56):
means that he is adhering tothe NDA.
Yeah.
There could still be somethingamazing that Dave Jones is working
on and he's under NDA, and soof course he can't tell us anything
about it.
Yeah. When I kind of got like,okay, I didn't hear, you know, we've
kind of moved on with. I knowAdam's understandably preoccupied
(03:18):
with. With God Caster, becausehe just launched that and, you know,
he's trying to get the wordout about that and some other things,
and I just didn't hear any.For me, I'm not hearing any priority
of like, hey, we got to getthis fixed, because there's still
Fountain and what's the otherone? Pod?
Podcast guru.
Well, podcast guru. Yeah,there's one, but they all have that
(03:41):
kind of. You gotta go throughstrike to go to the thing, and then
you do the thing and then thehokey pokey and turn yourself around
again and then you get yourwallet kind of thing. And I was like,
oh, so that's as good as it'sgoing to be for now, for a while
was we're making strides andmore apps were adopting it. And so
not that it's gone away.Right. You've always got Fountain.
(04:02):
And I know they came out witha new interface today, so that's
good. But I was just like, eh,it doesn't. It seems that it kind
of lost some of its momentum.So when that went away. Yeah, there
are all sorts of great thingswith 2.0 that have come along. You
know, transcripts is 2.0, andthat was adopted by Apple, so there
are all sorts of things tocheer about. But that was the one.
(04:22):
You know, it's kind of like,oh, you. I don't know if you'll even
get this, but if you're oldand remember Leonard Skynyrd, it'd
be like going to LynyrdSkynyrd. And then finding out halfway
through the concert, oh,they're not doing Freebird tonight.
You're like, wait, what?That's. That's why I'm here.
Am I supposed to laugh at thator not? Because I don't. I really
don't know. Yeah, I identifyas young and handsome, so if you,
(04:44):
since you're laughing at that,I assume you're laughing at the Yun
part. But.
Exactly.
The reason I bring this up andthe reason we very specifically had
a question mark in that titleis a few reasons here. Yes, yes,
there is a risky future tovalue for value, but it depends on
(05:05):
how you define value for valueright now. Dave, to you very much.
When people say value forvalue to you, you instantly think
crypto. And in fact, that wasthe origin of this very podcast before
you renamed it to the Futureof Podcasting and before I joined
you on it. It was this wholething about trying to understand
crypto and walking throughthat and explaining that that is
(05:27):
an aspect. Value for value isa concept. It is not a technology.
Value for value reallypioneered and made popular by Adam
Curry, the podfather, the cocreator of podcasting, and John C.
Dvorak and their podcast noAgenda. It's a concept that you are
creating value by creatingyour podcast and you can ask and
(05:47):
give opportunities for youraudience to provide value back to
the podcast. So you'reexchanging value for value. Hey,
that's the name of theconcept. So it's not a technology.
Technologies will come and go.Adam Curry and John C. Dvorak on
the no Agenda podcast do valuefor value through checks. So does
(06:09):
Jen Briney from CongressionalDish. So do countless other podcasters
through Patreon, throughchecks, through PayPal, through gifts,
through support, throughtalent, through time, through treasures,
these time, talent andtreasure that Adam Curry talks about.
So it is this value exchange,and that's the basis of why we have
currency, is because you mightnot want the chickens that I have
(06:33):
in exchange for the podcastexpertise that you have, which you
can getover@schoolofpodcasting.com and you
might not want the chickensthat I have. So we have a currency
because then we attributevalue to that currency and we exchange
based on that currency. And inpodcasting we can do that same thing.
But some people don't have thecurrency, but they do have the talent
(06:53):
we or the time to offer forthings. So the concept of value for
value, there is no risk inthat future. The risk is in some
of our technologicalimplementations of it. And I would
Say it's not actually a badrisk, but potentially a good risk
(07:14):
because it can mean betterpotential coming in the future. So
consider this. One of thebiggest reasons that we've jumped
on the crypto train for tryingto exchange value for value payments
is the micropayments beingable to stream payments while you're
listening to a podcast. So foras long as I'm listening, I'm streaming
(07:36):
payments back to thepodcaster. The longer I listen, the
more I pay. It's a greatconcept. How much do audiences actually
want to do that? I don't know.But still, it's a good concept. Whether
that is making a one timepayment or it's streaming those payments
as they're listening. It allbuilds around this concept of the
micropayment or I'm actuallygoing to use the term nanopayment
(08:00):
because in the business worldmicropayments can often mean less
than $10 or less than $20.I've not seen a definite number,
but it's many dollarsbasically. But in the value for value
streaming satoshis, we'rereally working with Nano payments
where it's maybe pennies worthof a payment per minute that someone
(08:23):
is listening. So it totals upto maybe only 50 cents. But here's
the biggest problem with that.You look at all of the major payment
platforms, whether that'scredit cards or unconventional methods
where it allows for some APIintegration back and forth. So PayPal,
Stripe, many platforms likethat, they all charge a percentage
(08:47):
on the transaction. That'snormal. Okay. Nothing wrong with
that whatsoever. A transactionfee, that's a percentage based thing.
We have that even in thestreaming payments, it's part of
the splits or the fees thatsome of the payment providers or
networks take or anything likethat. That's fine. Percentages are
fine. What kills the Nanopayment are the flat rate fees on
(09:10):
the transactions. PayPal, forexample, and Stripe, many of them,
it's around 50 cents pertransaction. Regardless of the size
of the transaction, it's a 50cent payment. So it is impossible
for someone to send you 50cents through those platforms because
the platform would eat that upin the fee. And then they still need
(09:33):
their 2.9% or 3%, whatever itis for that system. So the Nano transactions
just cannot exist on thoseplatforms. But what if those platforms
decide to drop the 50 cent pertransaction fee?
That'd be a beautiful thing.
It would be. But see, that isa risk to the value for value structure
(09:54):
that we have right now. Andyes, that is a risk to building around
the Lightning Network. And I'mnot saying that we need to hold everything
off until this ever happens orif it ever will happen. It is a risk,
but it is a good risk that ifthat were to happen, I think that
could open the floodgates andI can potentially see a future where
(10:16):
something like that happens.Like maybe they say, all right, if
you want to be able to acceptNano payments, we'll drop the 50
cent per transaction fee, butyour percentage will jump up to 5%
or 10%, something like that. Iwould be fine with that because 10%
of 50 cents is still a wholelot less than 50 cents of 50 cents.
(10:40):
Yeah, exactly. It would beinteresting to see, and I know there
are some options. Was it thisweek, last week, that Apple came
out with the big news?
Yeah, let's talk about that.
I always just called it theApple Tax. You know, if anybody bought
anything in Apple, they wouldtake 30%. And I'm not sure if it
was in the US or what courtwas it in the US that they lost this.
(11:05):
Well, lost. We'll see, becauseI'm sure they're going to appeal.
But at this point, theybasically have a judge that has said,
yeah, the 30% Apple tax isgone. It's something to do with being
too competitive or whatever.Monopolyptic. Did I just make up
a new word?
This sounds good to me.
Yeah, you can explain thismuch better than I can.
(11:27):
Yeah, it was Epic Games, thecompany behind the hugely popular,
insanely popular, insanely,insanely popular game Fortnite Battle
Royale, or just now known asFortnite. And on the iPhone, they
had Fortnite on the iPhone andEpic Games wanted to be able to sell
things, but Apple wanted totake their 30% and that has been
(11:51):
their requirement, is that ifyou sell anything digital through
an app on the iPhone, you haveto use Apple Pay, and Apple has to
get their 30% from that. Andyou even see that in the podcast
subscriptions aspect, althoughit is for Apple, they say there's
the 15% until a certainthreshold or a certain amount of
(12:13):
time, and then it's 30%, thatkind of thing. Or it's 30% and then
it's 15. I forget which way itis. But still, basically, Apple gets
a 30%, they get a cut, theyrequire that cut. And I will say
this in defense of Apple, itis Apple's platform and they should
be allowed to set their ownrules. The problem is, I think when
(12:34):
a platform gets so ubiquitousas the iPhone has and so prominent
so widely built upon, that'swhen I think they can no longer set
all the rules that they want.I'm a small government kind of guy,
so I don't like the governmentgetting involved unless they have
(12:56):
to. But there does come apoint where I think the government
has to. Because there is apoint where a company becomes a monopoly.
If I make the Daniel phone andI say, all right, you are only allowed
to post pictures of cats on myphone. Any other picture that you
want to share through myphone, you can. You're not allowed
to do that. Okay, I could dothat. No one's going to buy that
(13:19):
phone. Or maybe a few peoplewill buy that phone. But yes, it
is technically a monopoly, buta monopoly among the few people who
buy it. But if a billionpeople buy that phone, and I'm saying
you can only do this, you'renot allowed to use competing things.
It's not even really aboutwhat are you allowed to do with the
(13:39):
phone. But it's about businesspractices and anti competitive behavior.
And it has nothing to do withmoderation policies or anything like
that. That's where it becomesmore complicated.
Yeah. When you have AppleMusic, but you have a Spotify app.
And so Spotify has to. If youorder Spotify on your iPhone, they're
(14:01):
going to take 30%. Whereas ifyou bought it on the Spotify website,
you wouldn't. And so all thesecompanies had different things where
if you would click on the buybutton, you might get a message that
says, hey, if you like ourcompany, do us a favor, don't buy
this here. And they would sendthem to their own website. So they're
not going through the Applesystem. And.
But even that was forbidden.
(14:21):
Yeah. And that's where you getinto really anti competitive. You're
like, look, you can't tell mewhat I can do on my own website.
And so things got kind ofugly. And it is one of those things
where, you know, there aresome people who go, well, that's
just business, you know, andif you don't like it, build your
own store. But it's like. And30% is a chunk.
(14:42):
It is.
Ouch. Yeah. So when this cameout, I know, I heard, I think it
was James Credlin today saidthat Patreon has already put a update
to their app because, youknow, and then there were things
like Pocket Cast came out, Idon't know, a couple weeks ago or
I'm not sure eventually whenthey did it, but now they have the
(15:02):
funding button. You can nowbasically map that to anything. Which
was nice because it used to Beright. We're talking about satoshis,
but you can link that toStrike, I didn't realize. Or Stripe.
You always have to like strikewith a P. There is a page you can
send people to and just letthem pick however much they want
to send you via credit card.But there are services like Buy me
(15:25):
a Coffee and Ko Fi and Patreonand a bunch of them.
Yeah. So let's back up though,before we dig into some of those,
because it would be good to.Is what changed recently now a week
or two ago, by the time you'relistening to this, is that Apple
had their hand slapped becausethis whole thing with Epic Games
went through in the UnitedStates. And there have been similar
(15:45):
court cases with Google, alsowith Apple overseas as well as in
the United States. But EpicGames, props to them, they really
stood firm on this and wouldnot give up. And that's why Fortnite
was pulled from the iOS store,because they'd rather have it pulled
than compromise on what theybelieved were their principles. So
great job, guys. And Apple hadthis ruling come down from the court
(16:08):
that basically said you're notallowed to do this kind of thing
anymore. You have to do itdifferently. So Apple kind of did
letter of the law, butinappropriately so to the point that
the court came back and theletter was kind of scathing. What
the court basically said isbasically it's a, it's a huge slap
(16:29):
on Apple's wrist saying no,you cannot do these things that you
tried to do to try tocircumvent this order, to try and
work around this. Absolutelynot. You are not allowed to do this.
It's been made extremely clearthat Apple has to open it up so that
other payment methods can beaccepted. You can make notices on
(16:52):
the app that you'd ratherpeople pay a different way. You don't
have to hide information. So alot of this anti competitive stuff
is now gone. And so that's whya lot of these apps have been uploading
things. And some of the bigconcerns for this, like with podcast
apps even I know for a littlewhile, remember Marco with Overcast
(17:14):
had supported a feature kindof like the funding tag. This was
before the Podcasting 2.0funding tag existed. And Dave, explain
the funding tag briefly asopposed to the value tag. What is
the funding tag?
The funding tag. And this iswhere I always get these confused.
So let me know if I'm goingdown the wrong road. But that's the
one where you put a link towhatever you want it to go to. So
(17:36):
that can be buy me a coffee orreally anything you could put the
link to, like, Buzzsprout andCaptivate have their own kind of
systems where you can receivepayments. You could put that. Anything
you want, you could put there.
It could go to your bookstore, it could go to your merch
store, it could go to yourwebsite, it could go straight to
(17:58):
the PayPal link or anythingyou want. Yeah.
Yeah. And right now, I'mreally loving Pocket Cast. But the
thing I discovered, because Inever closed Pocket Cast, that I
was like, I kept hearingpeople talk about this. I'm like,
I do not see this littledollar sign. So then I made sure
I had stuff in the right tag,and I'm like, I'd go to my show,
and I'm like, it's not there.I had to close the app. And when
(18:21):
I did, it was like, hey,there's an update available. I updated
it, and then I reopened it andit was there. So if you're a person
like me that never closes theapp, you have to close it and reboot
it, and then you'll see itcome up. And then once I did, it
was right there, and it's onthe website, and I forgot to check
that as well. But, yeah, so Ilove the fact that it's super flexible.
You can, you know, like yousaid, if you're an author and the
(18:43):
way you monetize is by booksales, you could put a link right
there to where people could,you know, you could say, hey, if
you're listening to this onPocket Cast, just click on the dollar
sign and that'll take youright to our book sales. You know,
and it's not just Pocket Cast.There are other apps that are using
that feature as well. Sothat's the other thing I didn't quite
realize. I thought it was. Iknew it was there, but I didn't realize
(19:04):
other apps were using it.
Yeah. So before the fundingtag existed in podcasting 2.0, Marco
with overcast built somethingpretty cool where he would discover
support links in podcast feedsas well as I think he suggested ways
that podcasters could add one.Again, this was before the funding
tag existed, maybe even beforepodcasting 2.0 existed. But he pulled
(19:27):
that not because Apple toldhim to, but because he was worried
Apple would tell him to pullit. And he didn't want anything about
his appeal preventing updatesfrom going out, so he pulled it.
Now there's not that fearanymore. So now even whether that
was justified before, nowpodcast app developers don't have
(19:50):
to worry about that, becauseApple has to allow that kind of thing,
at least in the United States,probably soon, the European Union.
And I would really suspect atsome point Apple's just going to
open this up internationally.And I would really hope they do.
I think it would be wise forthem to. But that presents that opportunity
(20:10):
to let your audience givevalue back to you. That doesn't have
to be anything like satoshisor crypto or anything like that.
If the app can make thatbutton visible, then link it to something
that lets your audience givevalue back to you in whatever they.
Whatever way that they want.Try to make that landing page. So
(20:31):
I always tell people, neversay Patreon in your podcast. Dave,
you're great at this. With Askthe Podcast Coach. Where do you tell
people to go?
Yeah, I always say, go toaskthepodcastcoach.com awesome. Because
when I originally startedplaying with those tools, there was
a service by Google calledJaywalk that was kind of cool, very
(20:56):
much like Patreon. And I waslike, oh, okay, I'm going to use
Jaywalk. And then they werebought by Google and immediately
shut down. So if I'd beentelling people, oh, go to jaywalk.com,
dave, or whatever the websitewas, I'd have 15 episodes with a
dead link in them. Where whenyou say, oh, go to my website.com
whatever, then you controlthat link. Like, right now, I was
(21:19):
on Patreon, I kind of likeSupercast a little better. I don't
know that they're any cheaper.I just like their interface better.
I think it's a betterexperience for the listener. Cause
they kind of can detect whatphone you're on and then suggest
things where with Patreon, ifsomebody actually wants to listen
and say, Apple Podcast, you'vegot to go find your feed. You've
got to copy the feed. Go onApple Podcasts, click on the three
(21:42):
little dots. It's just thateasy. So again, I switched. I didn't
really do anything. It'sstill. You go to askthepodcastcoach.com
awesome. It's just now there'sa button there for Supercast where
before it was a button forPatreon where, you know, if I'd been
saying, oh, go to patreon.comDaveJackson okay. Getting people,
you know, like, it's apodcast. I've. Unless that was somehow
(22:05):
dynamically inserted, there'sno way I'd have to go back and rerecord
all those episodes.
Yeah. And there's also thewhole thing about you're mentioning
another brand name in yourpodcast. And will people even know
how to spell that brand namecorrectly? Yeah, like I, I've seen
it so often when people say Iwas trying to join your patron, but
I can't find you on patron.Com. It's no, it's Patreon, that
(22:29):
kind of thing. But you canmake a landing page or even simply
a redirect or whatever it is.Even if you do link that funding
tag directly to Patreon, youshould be allowed to do that now
in iOS. And also you've beenallowed to do that in Google because
Google had a very similarissue happen on their side. It's
(22:49):
just it didn't make such a bigsplash because Google wasn't being
such Nazis about it like Applewas no soup for you. That kind of
Nazi. So now we've got thisoption and I think for the whole
value for value concept, againas a concept, not an implementation,
(23:09):
I think the funding tag is thebetter approach because what it can
do is it can give youraudience the choice you've used for
a while. Dave the servicecalled Genius Link, and I just recently
signed up for it and I met thegentleman from Genius Link at a recent
podcasting conference. AndGenius Link is an affiliate linking
(23:29):
service where you pay them andthen insert your affiliate IDs into
their system. And what theycan do is make it much easier for
you to create affiliate linksto products that you want to recommend.
But not only that, you canmake what they call choice pages
where you link to the sameproduct on multiple retailers. So
(23:49):
I could say, hey, go buy theATR2100X USB at this link. That link
takes you to my Genius Link.And then on the Genius Link it has
that product photo andunderneath it it has Amazon B and
H, adorama, Sweetwater,Walmart, eBay, you know, whatever.
Yeah, on there. And thegentleman from Genius Link said that
(24:12):
they've been tracking thestats on it and very interestingly,
they see more conversionshappen on the Choice pages than a
single link directly to oneretailer. And I realized that makes
sense for this reason. Nowthere are those studies that the
things like if you present theaudience with too much choice or
(24:35):
it's not audience, if youpresent the consumer with with too
much choice, like too manydifferent kinds of peanut butter,
they'll be less likely to buy.The thing is here that's choosing
between a product like whichproduct is best, right? Well, when
you already know the product,the consumer can make the decision
much more easily. It's itusually comes down to one of these
(24:57):
two things. Actually I want tosee, Dave. I want to see if my guess
of these two things is correctfor you. If there's a product you
already know you want to buyand you see it's available at three
to four different retailers,what makes you choose one over the
other?
Typically it's price. Butalmost the first place I'm going
to look at is Sweetwater freecandy. But their service is insane.
(25:22):
And the price is almost alwaysthe same if not cheaper than Amazon.
The shipping is just as fastas Amazon. Because I don't know about
you, but lately Amazonshipping is like, hire some more
people, folks. And then theircustomer service is almost annoying.
It's so good. I'll get anemail, hey, this is shipped. And
then I'll get a phone callwhen it arrives. And they're like,
(25:44):
hey, is everything okay withit? Anything you need, anything else?
And I'm like, okay. And thenyou open up the box and there's free
candy. I'm like, who doesn'twant free candy?
So you just said the twothings I was thinking price and loyalty.
Yeah, so many people will shopjust purely based on price. Some
people will compromise on theprice because of loyalty. And people
(26:04):
will love it when they win onboth the price and the loyalty. That
is the consumers will love itwhen they win with that. So when
you're presenting a choicepage in that sense, some people,
they're subscribed to Amazonprime, they get that free two day
shipping or next day shippingor whatever. They maybe they live
right next door to Amazonwarehouse so they know they get their
stuff within five minutes whenthey order. Whatever the case, they
(26:27):
might always see that anddecide, I always want Amazon. So
yeah, it's nice to know it'savailable at these other places.
But I really appreciate thatthere's an Amazon link or it's the
Sweetwater thing. Maybe theyjust always want to buy from Sweetwater
regardless. And none of thesecompanies by the way are sponsoring
our content here. We haveaffiliate relationships with these
companies but they're not paidto get mentioned here, just that
(26:49):
disclosure. So when you'representing a choice in that sense,
it makes sense to me that thathelps people convert better because
for one thing they get tochoose their preferred retailer,
which maybe their preferredretailer is not Amazon. So if you're
always only promoting Amazonaffiliate links, it would make sense
(27:12):
that your links aren'tconverting as well. Maybe they prefer
somewhere else. But the otherthing is it also enables them to
very quickly compare on thatother metric that matters to them,
the price, they could justopen the link. Okay, you. If Amazon
is this much, B and H is thismuch, Sweetwater is this much, they're
all the same price. Or, oh,wait, this one's $5 cheaper and still
has free shipping. Okay, I'mgoing with that one. So you've enabled
(27:33):
them to make a better choice.So all that to say, I think, on the
payment side as well. Andthere is a limit, I think, to this
kind of thing where you don'twant to overload with 20 different
choices. But there is maybe onthe payment side, and this is a theory
right now for me is if youpresent the audience with a couple
(27:54):
of options for payment, thatmight make it easier for them and
maybe make it more profitablefor you. And I actually have some
experience with this for alittle while. I accepted PayPal payments
on Podgagement. Actually,before it was podgagement, back when
it was called my podcastReviews. I accepted PayPal payments
in the beginning and for manyyears. But PayPal is a pain to deal
(28:17):
with on an accounting side,and I just didn't want to mess with
it. But I also wondered whatwould be the cost to not use PayPal
anymore. And I experimentedwith it, and I experimented with
hiding the PayPal paymentoption on my checkout process. And
sure enough, I got fewerconversions when I removed PayPal
(28:40):
from the site because peoplewanted PayPal now for me, I decided
it's not worth it to me tokeep supporting PayPal. I'll take
the hit just because I don'twant to have the personal expense
of dealing with PayPal. Butthat proves that point or helps confirm
that point that sometimes theaudience needs more choices. So for
(29:02):
your funding tag, what mightbe better is pointing them to a page
on your site where you havethose links of, hey, you can send
us PayPal, you can send uscrypto through this. You can pay
with your credit card righthere. Here's the form right here.
Or you can. Here's the P.O.box for you to send us a check or
cash or whatever. Or here'sthe buy me a coffee link. Here's
(29:23):
the Patreon link that can allbe on that page that you point people
to. And I love deferring thedetails of the call to action like
that as well. So your call toaction can be as simple as visit,
slash, awesome, or whatever.And then they go there and they can
make their choice of which waythey want to support you.
(29:43):
And then the thing you want tobe. Cause I thought about this. Whatever
that page is, go to it on yourphone and see what it looks like.
Because back in the day,right, there used to be people listening
on their computer. Nobody'slistening to a podcast on a computer.
Very few compared to the earlydays. And so you want to make sure
(30:04):
that those buttons are big,they're easy to find, and they can
click on them on a phonebecause that's where a big chunk
of your audience, they'regoing to click on that button, and
then it takes them to thatpage. You want to make sure that
works on your phone.
Something. I'm glad that wehaven't said this word, but this
is one of my concerns about arisky future of the value for value
(30:26):
ecosystem and concept the worddonate. I think there's some risk
to using the word donate. Andyou've had this conversation with
your cpa, haven't you?
Yeah. Cause if people thinkit's a donation, they might actually
want to claim that on theirtaxes. And then they go look for
Ask the Podcast Coach in thenonprofit world. And they're like,
(30:48):
we can't find a nonprofitlabeled Ask the Podcast Coach. And
they're like, oh, okay.Because somebody at PodPage had said,
hey, we have links, like ifyou do a, you know, whether it's
PayPal or Buy Me a Coffee orKo Fi or GoFundMe. And somebody said,
hey, can you guys add stripewith a P? And I was like, oh, we
(31:10):
don't have that. Okay. And sofirst I was like, you can make a
link in stripe and you can.And so I went over and just in their.
Their support area, I justtyped in donate button. And in that,
they have a lot of thingsthat's like, hey, easy with the donate
button. You might want to callthis. And this is Adam's favorite
term, a tip. And I was like,oh, he's not going to like that.
(31:32):
But there was a lot ofdocumentation, kind of the same thing,
like, be careful calling thisa donation, because you're not really
a nonprofit. So you got to becareful with that.
I like the term give back.It's a combination of concepts. I've
heard different people say.I've seen some studies on nonprofits
(31:54):
that have said that donations.And this is in the nonprofit organization,
tax deductible donation world.But they've shown that when they
use the term gift. Would youlike to gift to someone? When they
use that term, their donationshave gone up and they have to use
that term consistentlythroughout the call to action, like
on the buttons in theirlanguage. And Everything. So nowhere
(32:16):
does it say support or donateor anything like that. And they cross
compared it to words likedonate and support and they found
that the word gift convertedmuch better. And I think that makes
sense because people, I think,have a more emotional connection
to the word gift. They thinkof like the joy of at Christmas time,
when you give a gift tosomeone and see them open it up and
(32:39):
oh, wow, you know, it's justwhat I wanted so much. You know,
that expression of love andgetting to enjoy people seeing them
open their gifts and receivetheir gifts. I think that makes sense.
Now, that word doesn't work somuch in the podcast world, but I
had this thought of the termgive back because it does a couple
(33:01):
of things. One, it doesn'thave this negative or potential risky
connotation of donateassociated with it. But the other
thing is I love it for how itbuilds into the value for value concept
of really, we're talking abouta sense of reciprocity, where when
I say, not just would you giveto the podcast, but would you give
(33:23):
back to the podcast? What thatextra word back is adding is that
sense of, hey, I'm alreadygiving something to you of value.
Would you consider giving somevalue back in exchange? And it doesn't
have to. You don't have to usethose actual words exchange. But
give back to the podcast canbe a better way to use that. So if
(33:48):
you're in that area of usingthe word donate, be careful. That
is a risky future. I don'tthink so much you're the one in trouble,
but you could get other peoplein trouble. But certainly there could
be a point where, I don'tknow, some companies or government
organizations starts to tryand crack down on saying, hey, you
really shouldn't be doingthis. Like, the FTC would probably
(34:10):
be the people to do this ifthey haven't done it already since
they started cracking down.They still call it guidelines, though.
And if you've seen Pirates ofthe Caribbean or Caribbean, whichever
one that you watched, Hang thecode and Hang the rules, they're
more like guidelines anyway.Yeah, well, the FTC guidelines kind
of treat it like law. Andthere are some other countries, though,
(34:31):
that have similar guidelinesor actual laws around language and
the ways that you can endorsethings. Be careful with that word
donate. That is a riskyfuture. And with anything, any kind
of terminology that you'reusing, there is some risk to how
you communicate that. Sothat's why I think the best way to
communicate it is reallyaround this concept of value for
(34:51):
value of hey, we've given younot we're selling you something of
value unless you are selling,but we've given you something of
value for free. And if youfind value in that, would you consider
giving some value back to us?
Yeah, because the other thingit does is you can give somebody
three easy steps to blah,blah, blah, whatever it is, or today
(35:15):
I'm doing a review of aproduct. I mean, we watch movie reviews
because we don't want to gosit in a movie for two hours. It's
awful, right? You know, sothose people are saving you time.
You just don't realize it. Andso there are times when you just
by reminding people, like,hey, if this is a great fit for you,
as I talked about this pieceof equipment, you know, you might
(35:37):
consider using my affiliatelink in the show notes. That's a
way to give back. And so justby reminding them that, hey, you
just spent X amount of timewith me and hopefully you're in a
better place than before youhit play. And just by politely reminding
them that, hey, I gave yousome value, they might actually give
some back. So that's the coolthing. It's kind of the whole teacher,
(36:00):
tell them what you're going totell them, tell them and then tell
them what you told them sothat you're kind of reminding them
that, hey, I spent some timeon this, this was valuable and you
got something out of it. Can Ihave some of that back now?
What have you thought aboutstreaming payments, both as a podcaster
receiving them and as alistener sending them? Like, what's
(36:20):
been your feelings about notthe experience, like the technological
experience, but the emotionalexperience? Do you have much of a
different emotional experiencewith the streaming payments versus
Boostergrams or any kind ofsingle one off payments?
Yeah, very much so. Because,you know, and the other apps I was
(36:42):
thinking of were podverse andTrue Fans are ones that have that
built in. And I can put moneyin my wallet, but I never got a notification.
Sometimes the app might say,hey, you've got nothing in your wallet.
But there wasn't any kind ofred flashing light or there wasn't
an email that's like, hey, youbomb your. Your wallet's empty. So
(37:03):
there'd be time when I'd belistening and I would go to Boost
and that's when I would see,oh, wait, I don't have any money
in my wallet.
Oh, because it all streamed out.
It all streamed out. Andthat's when I would get this feeling
in my heart of like, oh, I gotvalue. I'M not giving value back.
And I kind of felt like Iripped them off. And so then I would
(37:24):
fill up my wallet and go backand send a boost because I have no
idea how long it's been empty.And so there is definitely a different
way. And when I started usingpocketcast, I want to say there were
three, maybe four shows that Iwas listening to on Podcast Guru,
which was kind of a pain inthe butt because everything else
(37:46):
is in one place. And so I wastalking with Matt Kundal of soundoff
Podcast. They said, hey, inthe event you see streaming satoshis
dry up for me, it's not that Isaid, I'm probably going to move
everything to PocketCast. Isaid, and I'll just send you a fiver
every now and then, becausethat's probably more than I gave
(38:08):
him in satoshis, because I wasstreaming, I think at something like
50 satoshis a minute orsomething like that, because I wanted
it to be small so that as Ilistened to more shows, everybody
would get a piece of the piecewas the idea. And I was like, but
there is a thing where I'mlike, oh, wait, what's going on with
Todd and Rob? Oh, hold on, Igotta switch apps to listen to them.
(38:29):
And so it's just one of thosewhere I'm like, again, first world
problems, but I'm kind oflike, oh, wait, I gotta go to Podcast
Guru now to listen. And I waslike, it would just be so much easier
if they were all in one place,because then they could be in my
playlist and things like that.So I am still doing that. I still
have two apps going. But it'sbeen on my mind that I'm like, I
might quit doing that justbecause it's, again, gotta go into
(38:53):
strike with a K. Put money infrom my bank so I can go into the
thing and throw it into thething. You know, it's like, okay.
And if they're not gonna makeit easier and this is the way it's
gonna be, I was like, maybeI'll just. Like I said, you know,
hey, put something in yourfunding tag and I'll throw you some
money another way, maybe. Idon't know. Dave, how do you feel
about it?
(39:13):
I. I think it's a neat idea,but I've never thought it should
really have been implementedthe way it was, because, for one
thing, I. I think JamesCridland really pointed this out
in the beginning, and it makessense because he was a victim of
this, in a sense where PodNews Daily is a very short podcast,
(39:36):
and even in a week's worth oflistening, it's shorter than than
many single episodes of otherpodcasts. But the value I get from
POD News and the value hedelivers and packs in such a small
little nugget of POD News ismuch higher. So for me to then have
(39:57):
to sit and here's the thing,there's a great book out there. It's
a bit outdated in some of itstechnological talks, but the concept,
though, isn't outdated.
It's.
Don't make me think it's abook about user interface design
and a lot of great studies andinformation in there, but it's the
thing of don't make peoplehave to think about some of these
(40:19):
decisions, make it obvious andeasy for them. And I think the streaming
satoshis and just streamingpayments of any kind are one of those
kinds of things where itrequires you to think about. Like
let's take POD News forexample here. It's a very short podcast.
There was at one point he wasaround only two minutes, and now
(40:41):
I think it's a little bitlonger, but still very short daily
podcast. Now for me to thinkabout, okay, how much is that worth?
To me if the episodes areabout three minutes on average? So
that means I need to bestreaming this many satoshis per
minute in order to give himthis much value for every episode
that I listen to, and thenthat totals up to this much value
(41:02):
per week. See, you're havingto do all of this head math or the
maths to speak British badly.I don't think the audiences should
have to do that. What I wouldso much rather see is a system where
it's. Maybe it's just a perepisode or a per month thing, kind
of like you've been able to doon Patreon for a long time, where
(41:25):
you could say for everyepisode of this I listened to, I
want to give back this much tothem. And as long as we can make
the nano payments possible, Ithink it's okay to make those be
nano payments. Because whilemy cash flow is still an issue and
I would love to be recklesslygenerous to a lot of people, I could
(41:47):
do something like 10 cents perepisode. That's super achievable.
Or 25 cents. Hey, 25 centsper. Per episode directly to the
episode host or the podcasthost. That is much more than they
would get from a podcastsponsor, paying them a typical CPM
many times more than theywould get from dynamically inserted
(42:09):
programmatic ads in theirpodcast. So don't think of 25 cents
as nothing. Of course, not allof your audience will do it. But
the Nano payments, I'd rathersee it be something where I could
just set it as a per episodething or even a per month. And maybe
the apps could do that wherethey say, you want to support this
(42:31):
podcast? Would you like tosupport it per episode? Or would
you like to support it permonth automatically and then just
set your amount in a localcurrency that, you know, none of
this satoshi stuff andwhatever's happening under the hood
is fine. But if it's a perepisode thing, or maybe if it's a
per month thing, that could beactivated only if I actually listen.
(42:53):
And so they are gettingpayment and the more I listen, the
more they get paid.Potentially that takes a lot of the
guesswork out of it for theconsumer and I think makes it a lot
easier for the podcaster as well.
Yeah, I remember I talked withTed from Apple at an event and he
(43:14):
wasn't anti at all. You know,the 2.0 stuff. He said the only thing
with the satoshi thing, hegoes, it has to be easy. And he goes,
and when I mean easy, I meaneasy. And he goes, and it's nowhere
near that. And so I'd love tosee, you know, if they're going to
take 30%, they're going totake 30%. But I'm always like, okay,
(43:36):
now that they've kind of hadthis thing, it would be interesting.
I know you can have premiumpodcasts in Apple, but it'd be great
if they made some sort ofclick here to send a payment to me
button in Apple Podcasts. Thatwould be huge.
And maybe they will at somepoint. It would still. The Apple
tax would still be an issue.But the thing is in the Apple Podcasts
(44:00):
section, not like the AppleApp Store, the whole Epic Games thing,
I think that the way thatApple Podcasts has made it so seamless
inside of the podcast app, Ithink that is worth the 15 or 30%
that you pay them becausethey've made it such a great experience.
That's it. They could make it easy.
(44:20):
And now with this whole thingthat's happened, circling back to
the Epic Games issue, what Ithink, and I hope this will do is
open the floodgates now that alot of developers will will not be
so afraid to support some ofthese fringe or edge case payment
opportunities. And there couldbe ways that the app developers could
(44:44):
build this into their apps nowand it can be profitable for them,
profitable for the podcastersand easy for the consumers. And here's
the thing about that, too. Iam not so sure it has to all be using
the same technology. Considerthis, let's say podcast app xyz,
the Acme podcast app. Thesetwo podcast apps, one of them uses
(45:06):
satoshis, one of them usesStripe the consumer. For both of
them, all they have to do isthey scan their credit card or they
use Google Pay or Apple Pay orwhatever the payment system is built
onto their phone. They don'tcare about the underlying technology.
Then from Acme podcast app, Iget satoshi's deposited into my wallet.
(45:29):
From podcast app xyz, I get amonthly Stripe deposit into my bank
account. I don't really carewhich way necessarily. What matters
more to me is that it's easyfor the audience and easy for me
to receive those payments. Soif different technologies are supported
by different apps, I thinkthat can be okay, as long as the
(45:53):
podcaster still benefits. Andfor the developer, if they're taking
their payments, they couldtake their own 10% on top of the
we'll round it up to 5% or sothat the payment gateways use. I
think that could be okay.
Yeah. It kind of goes back to,you know, the early days of podcasting
when people used to say, Idon't care how they listen, as long
(46:14):
as they listen, whether it'sApple or whatever, it's like, I don't
care how they pay me as longas they pay me.
I love that. So you heard ithere first, folks.
Yeah.
Copyright™ Dave Jackson,Skillpodcasting. Com now, all of
this conversation aboutpayment methods and everything, I
realized recently that wehaven't seen the notifications for
(46:37):
the booster grams andstreaming payments that we've received,
but we have received them. Sothank you very much for those things.
And let's just do this. Ifthere was a booster gram you wanted
us to read in the podcast,send it again with a bigger payment
this time. No, I won't saythat. I already did. So if you want
to send it with a biggerpayment, that's fine, but if it was
something really importantthat you wanted us to mention on
(46:58):
the podcast, please send itagain, even if it's only with one
satoshi. But, you know, begenerous to give back if the podcast
brought you value. So let'skind of just declare inbox bankruptcy
on that. But we are verygrateful for those streaming satoshis,
the streaming payments andsuch. And there are other ways too,
that you can support what wedo, either by buying the things that
(47:21):
Dave And I sell, or byreferring other people to the things
that we sell. Like, for me, mybig thing right now is podgagement.
So if you want to not justtrack the download metrics from your
audience, but want to trackthe engagement with your audience
and grow that relationshipwith your audience, that's what podgagement
(47:42):
is built to do. To help youtrack your ratings, reviews, your
rankings now and get feedbackfrom your audience, like voicemails
and messages from them.Discover networking opportunities
and more. Go over topodgagement. Com and to support what
Dave does, go over toschoolofpodcasting.com and Dave,
why should they do that andwhy should they send other people
(48:02):
to it?
Well, you get step by stepcourses. You get an amazing community.
We just had a marriagecounselor join, so now we're all
gonna get our marriages backin shape. So that'll be great. And
then you get unlimitedcoaching with me. So if you got a
question, I always go, here'smy calendar. And they go, I see there's
a spot on Wednesday, so Icould take that. I go, if it's available,
(48:25):
take it. And so far, that'snot been a problem. So, yeah, you
can findthat@schoolofpodcasting.com and speaking
of value for value, we bothhave affiliate programs, so if you
want to sign up as anaffiliate, you can refer all sorts
of people and make money thatway as well.
Get paid to bring other peopleto our businesses. We love that.
We love the referrals.
(48:46):
Yeah. But thanks, everybody.This has been episode 58. We do have
a contact page. If you go outto futurepodcasting.net contact you
can leave us a message thatway. You can also go to futurepodcasting.net
voicemail and we might hearyour smiling voice right here on
a future episode of the futureof podcasting.
(49:08):
Keep boosting. Should wereally say that anymore? But at least
we can keep saying keep podcasting.
There we go. Keep valuing.What do you. We need a verb for that.
The risky future of value for value.
This is the future ofpodcasting, where we ponder what
awaits the podcasters of today.
From the school of podcasting,here's Dave Jackson. And from the
Audacity to Podcast, here'sDaniel J. Lewis. Daniel, future of
podcasting. I think we're upto episode 58. We're talking about
(00:23):
the Risky future. Questionmark. A value for value. Good to
see you, buddy.
It's always great to talkabout the future of podcasting. The
past, the present, and thefuture. Value for value. First thing
here, Dave. I. I chucklebecause sometimes whenever you talk
about value for value, youassociate it with one specific thing,
(00:43):
and I want you to embrace thatright now and tell me, what do you
always associate value for value?
Oh, for me, it's beenstreaming satoshis from day one when
I was like, as soon as Iheard, the longer they listen, the
more you make, I was like,okay, you have my official, undivided
attention. Because to me, thatwas a way for every podcaster to
(01:07):
make even the smallest amount.It was just. And I. I kind of get
that. Some people feel thatkind of acknowledgement, like, my
podcast is only legit, which Ithink is kind of sad, but I think
a lot of people have thismindset. My podcast is only legit
when I have a sponsor, if I'mmaking money of some sort. Because
(01:29):
I'm like, you could just betalking about anything, and you bring
joy into somebody's life.That's value. It's not really, but
we all kind of come from thatmindset of radio. And I don't know
how we fall into that trap,but I see that a lot where people
are like, well, I just saw ittoday on Reddit. The guy's like,
I've been doing this for fiveyears. I'm only getting 40 downloads
an episode. And, you know, hewas kind of down in the dumps. He's
(01:53):
like, but I'm having a lot offun, and that's why I do it. And
I was like, well, there yougo. I ride my bike in the summer.
I don't make a dime from it.In fact, it cost me money. But I
have fun and it's goodexercise. So I've never had anybody
come up to me and go, oh, Isee you're riding your bike. How
much money make you doingthat? I'm not. I'm losing money.
I had to buy new tires orbrakes or something. So, yeah. But
(02:14):
for me, it's always beensatoshi. So when the whole Albie
Albymageddon came and, youknow, I realized there's still Fountain
and there's still, you know,other apps, but I understand why
they quit. I was kind of like,oh, and then I know Dave. Remember
when Dave had some companythat he was working with that he
had an NDA, and like, everyweek I was tuning in, like, is the
(02:36):
NDA done? Is like, can we hearwhat's. This big company was coming.
And then whoever it wasapparently kind of backed out or
just. We never heard about it.
Well, here's the thing aboutNDAs. No one should really know that
you're under an NDA. So justthat we know nothing about the NDA
(02:56):
means that he is adhering tothe NDA.
Yeah.
There could still be somethingamazing that Dave Jones is working
on and he's under NDA, and soof course he can't tell us anything
about it.
Yeah. When I kind of got like,okay, I didn't hear, you know, we've
kind of moved on with. I knowAdam's understandably preoccupied
(03:18):
with. With God Caster, becausehe just launched that and, you know,
he's trying to get the wordout about that and some other things,
and I just didn't hear any.For me, I'm not hearing any priority
of like, hey, we got to getthis fixed, because there's still
Fountain and what's the otherone? Pod?
Podcast guru.
Well, podcast guru. Yeah,there's one, but they all have that
(03:41):
kind of. You gotta go throughstrike to go to the thing, and then
you do the thing and then thehokey pokey and turn yourself around
again and then you get yourwallet kind of thing. And I was like,
oh, so that's as good as it'sgoing to be for now, for a while
was we're making strides andmore apps were adopting it. And so
not that it's gone away.Right. You've always got Fountain.
(04:02):
And I know they came out witha new interface today, so that's
good. But I was just like, eh,it doesn't. It seems that it kind
of lost some of its momentum.So when that went away. Yeah, there
are all sorts of great thingswith 2.0 that have come along. You
know, transcripts is 2.0, andthat was adopted by Apple, so there
are all sorts of things tocheer about. But that was the one.
(04:22):
You know, it's kind of like,oh, you. I don't know if you'll even
get this, but if you're oldand remember Leonard Skynyrd, it'd
be like going to LynyrdSkynyrd. And then finding out halfway
through the concert, oh,they're not doing Freebird tonight.
You're like, wait, what?That's. That's why I'm here.
Am I supposed to laugh at thator not? Because I don't. I really
don't know. Yeah, I identifyas young and handsome, so if you,
(04:44):
since you're laughing at that,I assume you're laughing at the Yun
part. But.
Exactly.
The reason I bring this up andthe reason we very specifically had
a question mark in that titleis a few reasons here. Yes, yes,
there is a risky future tovalue for value, but it depends on
(05:05):
how you define value for valueright now. Dave, to you very much.
When people say value forvalue to you, you instantly think
crypto. And in fact, that wasthe origin of this very podcast before
you renamed it to the Futureof Podcasting and before I joined
you on it. It was this wholething about trying to understand
crypto and walking throughthat and explaining that that is
(05:27):
an aspect. Value for value isa concept. It is not a technology.
Value for value reallypioneered and made popular by Adam
Curry, the podfather, the cocreator of podcasting, and John C.
Dvorak and their podcast noAgenda. It's a concept that you are
creating value by creatingyour podcast and you can ask and
(05:47):
give opportunities for youraudience to provide value back to
the podcast. So you'reexchanging value for value. Hey,
that's the name of theconcept. So it's not a technology.
Technologies will come and go.Adam Curry and John C. Dvorak on
the no Agenda podcast do valuefor value through checks. So does
(06:09):
Jen Briney from CongressionalDish. So do countless other podcasters
through Patreon, throughchecks, through PayPal, through gifts,
through support, throughtalent, through time, through treasures,
these time, talent andtreasure that Adam Curry talks about.
So it is this value exchange,and that's the basis of why we have
currency, is because you mightnot want the chickens that I have
(06:33):
in exchange for the podcastexpertise that you have, which you
can getover@schoolofpodcasting.com and you
might not want the chickensthat I have. So we have a currency
because then we attributevalue to that currency and we exchange
based on that currency. And inpodcasting we can do that same thing.
But some people don't have thecurrency, but they do have the talent
(06:53):
we or the time to offer forthings. So the concept of value for
value, there is no risk inthat future. The risk is in some
of our technologicalimplementations of it. And I would
Say it's not actually a badrisk, but potentially a good risk
(07:14):
because it can mean betterpotential coming in the future. So
consider this. One of thebiggest reasons that we've jumped
on the crypto train for tryingto exchange value for value payments
is the micropayments beingable to stream payments while you're
listening to a podcast. So foras long as I'm listening, I'm streaming
(07:36):
payments back to thepodcaster. The longer I listen, the
more I pay. It's a greatconcept. How much do audiences actually
want to do that? I don't know.But still, it's a good concept. Whether
that is making a one timepayment or it's streaming those payments
as they're listening. It allbuilds around this concept of the
micropayment or I'm actuallygoing to use the term nanopayment
(08:00):
because in the business worldmicropayments can often mean less
than $10 or less than $20.I've not seen a definite number,
but it's many dollarsbasically. But in the value for value
streaming satoshis, we'rereally working with Nano payments
where it's maybe pennies worthof a payment per minute that someone
(08:23):
is listening. So it totals upto maybe only 50 cents. But here's
the biggest problem with that.You look at all of the major payment
platforms, whether that'scredit cards or unconventional methods
where it allows for some APIintegration back and forth. So PayPal,
Stripe, many platforms likethat, they all charge a percentage
(08:47):
on the transaction. That'snormal. Okay. Nothing wrong with
that whatsoever. A transactionfee, that's a percentage based thing.
We have that even in thestreaming payments, it's part of
the splits or the fees thatsome of the payment providers or
networks take or anything likethat. That's fine. Percentages are
fine. What kills the Nanopayment are the flat rate fees on
(09:10):
the transactions. PayPal, forexample, and Stripe, many of them,
it's around 50 cents pertransaction. Regardless of the size
of the transaction, it's a 50cent payment. So it is impossible
for someone to send you 50cents through those platforms because
the platform would eat that upin the fee. And then they still need
(09:33):
their 2.9% or 3%, whatever itis for that system. So the Nano transactions
just cannot exist on thoseplatforms. But what if those platforms
decide to drop the 50 cent pertransaction fee?
That'd be a beautiful thing.
It would be. But see, that isa risk to the value for value structure
(09:54):
that we have right now. Andyes, that is a risk to building around
the Lightning Network. And I'mnot saying that we need to hold everything
off until this ever happens orif it ever will happen. It is a risk,
but it is a good risk that ifthat were to happen, I think that
could open the floodgates andI can potentially see a future where
(10:16):
something like that happens.Like maybe they say, all right, if
you want to be able to acceptNano payments, we'll drop the 50
cent per transaction fee, butyour percentage will jump up to 5%
or 10%, something like that. Iwould be fine with that because 10%
of 50 cents is still a wholelot less than 50 cents of 50 cents.
(10:40):
Yeah, exactly. It would beinteresting to see, and I know there
are some options. Was it thisweek, last week, that Apple came
out with the big news?
Yeah, let's talk about that.
I always just called it theApple Tax. You know, if anybody bought
anything in Apple, they wouldtake 30%. And I'm not sure if it
was in the US or what courtwas it in the US that they lost this.
(11:05):
Well, lost. We'll see, becauseI'm sure they're going to appeal.
But at this point, theybasically have a judge that has said,
yeah, the 30% Apple tax isgone. It's something to do with being
too competitive or whatever.Monopolyptic. Did I just make up
a new word?
This sounds good to me.
Yeah, you can explain thismuch better than I can.
(11:27):
Yeah, it was Epic Games, thecompany behind the hugely popular,
insanely popular, insanely,insanely popular game Fortnite Battle
Royale, or just now known asFortnite. And on the iPhone, they
had Fortnite on the iPhone andEpic Games wanted to be able to sell
things, but Apple wanted totake their 30% and that has been
(11:51):
their requirement, is that ifyou sell anything digital through
an app on the iPhone, you haveto use Apple Pay, and Apple has to
get their 30% from that. Andyou even see that in the podcast
subscriptions aspect, althoughit is for Apple, they say there's
the 15% until a certainthreshold or a certain amount of
(12:13):
time, and then it's 30%, thatkind of thing. Or it's 30% and then
it's 15. I forget which way itis. But still, basically, Apple gets
a 30%, they get a cut, theyrequire that cut. And I will say
this in defense of Apple, itis Apple's platform and they should
be allowed to set their ownrules. The problem is, I think when
(12:34):
a platform gets so ubiquitousas the iPhone has and so prominent
so widely built upon, that'swhen I think they can no longer set
all the rules that they want.I'm a small government kind of guy,
so I don't like the governmentgetting involved unless they have
(12:56):
to. But there does come apoint where I think the government
has to. Because there is apoint where a company becomes a monopoly.
If I make the Daniel phone andI say, all right, you are only allowed
to post pictures of cats on myphone. Any other picture that you
want to share through myphone, you can. You're not allowed
to do that. Okay, I could dothat. No one's going to buy that
(13:19):
phone. Or maybe a few peoplewill buy that phone. But yes, it
is technically a monopoly, buta monopoly among the few people who
buy it. But if a billionpeople buy that phone, and I'm saying
you can only do this, you'renot allowed to use competing things.
It's not even really aboutwhat are you allowed to do with the
(13:39):
phone. But it's about businesspractices and anti competitive behavior.
And it has nothing to do withmoderation policies or anything like
that. That's where it becomesmore complicated.
Yeah. When you have AppleMusic, but you have a Spotify app.
And so Spotify has to. If youorder Spotify on your iPhone, they're
(14:01):
going to take 30%. Whereas ifyou bought it on the Spotify website,
you wouldn't. And so all thesecompanies had different things where
if you would click on the buybutton, you might get a message that
says, hey, if you like ourcompany, do us a favor, don't buy
this here. And they would sendthem to their own website. So they're
not going through the Applesystem. And.
But even that was forbidden.
(14:21):
Yeah. And that's where you getinto really anti competitive. You're
like, look, you can't tell mewhat I can do on my own website.
And so things got kind ofugly. And it is one of those things
where, you know, there aresome people who go, well, that's
just business, you know, andif you don't like it, build your
own store. But it's like. And30% is a chunk.
(14:42):
It is.
Ouch. Yeah. So when this cameout, I know, I heard, I think it
was James Credlin today saidthat Patreon has already put a update
to their app because, youknow, and then there were things
like Pocket Cast came out, Idon't know, a couple weeks ago or
I'm not sure eventually whenthey did it, but now they have the
(15:02):
funding button. You can nowbasically map that to anything. Which
was nice because it used to Beright. We're talking about satoshis,
but you can link that toStrike, I didn't realize. Or Stripe.
You always have to like strikewith a P. There is a page you can
send people to and just letthem pick however much they want
to send you via credit card.But there are services like Buy me
(15:25):
a Coffee and Ko Fi and Patreonand a bunch of them.
Yeah. So let's back up though,before we dig into some of those,
because it would be good to.Is what changed recently now a week
or two ago, by the time you'relistening to this, is that Apple
had their hand slapped becausethis whole thing with Epic Games
went through in the UnitedStates. And there have been similar
(15:45):
court cases with Google, alsowith Apple overseas as well as in
the United States. But EpicGames, props to them, they really
stood firm on this and wouldnot give up. And that's why Fortnite
was pulled from the iOS store,because they'd rather have it pulled
than compromise on what theybelieved were their principles. So
great job, guys. And Apple hadthis ruling come down from the court
(16:08):
that basically said you're notallowed to do this kind of thing
anymore. You have to do itdifferently. So Apple kind of did
letter of the law, butinappropriately so to the point that
the court came back and theletter was kind of scathing. What
the court basically said isbasically it's a, it's a huge slap
(16:29):
on Apple's wrist saying no,you cannot do these things that you
tried to do to try tocircumvent this order, to try and
work around this. Absolutelynot. You are not allowed to do this.
It's been made extremely clearthat Apple has to open it up so that
other payment methods can beaccepted. You can make notices on
(16:52):
the app that you'd ratherpeople pay a different way. You don't
have to hide information. So alot of this anti competitive stuff
is now gone. And so that's whya lot of these apps have been uploading
things. And some of the bigconcerns for this, like with podcast
apps even I know for a littlewhile, remember Marco with Overcast
(17:14):
had supported a feature kindof like the funding tag. This was
before the Podcasting 2.0funding tag existed. And Dave, explain
the funding tag briefly asopposed to the value tag. What is
the funding tag?
The funding tag. And this iswhere I always get these confused.
So let me know if I'm goingdown the wrong road. But that's the
one where you put a link towhatever you want it to go to. So
(17:36):
that can be buy me a coffee orreally anything you could put the
link to, like, Buzzsprout andCaptivate have their own kind of
systems where you can receivepayments. You could put that. Anything
you want, you could put there.
It could go to your bookstore, it could go to your merch
store, it could go to yourwebsite, it could go straight to
(17:58):
the PayPal link or anythingyou want. Yeah.
Yeah. And right now, I'mreally loving Pocket Cast. But the
thing I discovered, because Inever closed Pocket Cast, that I
was like, I kept hearingpeople talk about this. I'm like,
I do not see this littledollar sign. So then I made sure
I had stuff in the right tag,and I'm like, I'd go to my show,
and I'm like, it's not there.I had to close the app. And when
(18:21):
I did, it was like, hey,there's an update available. I updated
it, and then I reopened it andit was there. So if you're a person
like me that never closes theapp, you have to close it and reboot
it, and then you'll see itcome up. And then once I did, it
was right there, and it's onthe website, and I forgot to check
that as well. But, yeah, so Ilove the fact that it's super flexible.
You can, you know, like yousaid, if you're an author and the
(18:43):
way you monetize is by booksales, you could put a link right
there to where people could,you know, you could say, hey, if
you're listening to this onPocket Cast, just click on the dollar
sign and that'll take youright to our book sales. You know,
and it's not just Pocket Cast.There are other apps that are using
that feature as well. Sothat's the other thing I didn't quite
realize. I thought it was. Iknew it was there, but I didn't realize
(19:04):
other apps were using it.
Yeah. So before the fundingtag existed in podcasting 2.0, Marco
with overcast built somethingpretty cool where he would discover
support links in podcast feedsas well as I think he suggested ways
that podcasters could add one.Again, this was before the funding
tag existed, maybe even beforepodcasting 2.0 existed. But he pulled
(19:27):
that not because Apple toldhim to, but because he was worried
Apple would tell him to pullit. And he didn't want anything about
his appeal preventing updatesfrom going out, so he pulled it.
Now there's not that fearanymore. So now even whether that
was justified before, nowpodcast app developers don't have
(19:50):
to worry about that, becauseApple has to allow that kind of thing,
at least in the United States,probably soon, the European Union.
And I would really suspect atsome point Apple's just going to
open this up internationally.And I would really hope they do.
I think it would be wise forthem to. But that presents that opportunity
(20:10):
to let your audience givevalue back to you. That doesn't have
to be anything like satoshisor crypto or anything like that.
If the app can make thatbutton visible, then link it to something
that lets your audience givevalue back to you in whatever they.
Whatever way that they want.Try to make that landing page. So
(20:31):
I always tell people, neversay Patreon in your podcast. Dave,
you're great at this. With Askthe Podcast Coach. Where do you tell
people to go?
Yeah, I always say, go toaskthepodcastcoach.com awesome. Because
when I originally startedplaying with those tools, there was
a service by Google calledJaywalk that was kind of cool, very
(20:56):
much like Patreon. And I waslike, oh, okay, I'm going to use
Jaywalk. And then they werebought by Google and immediately
shut down. So if I'd beentelling people, oh, go to jaywalk.com,
dave, or whatever the websitewas, I'd have 15 episodes with a
dead link in them. Where whenyou say, oh, go to my website.com
whatever, then you controlthat link. Like, right now, I was
(21:19):
on Patreon, I kind of likeSupercast a little better. I don't
know that they're any cheaper.I just like their interface better.
I think it's a betterexperience for the listener. Cause
they kind of can detect whatphone you're on and then suggest
things where with Patreon, ifsomebody actually wants to listen
and say, Apple Podcast, you'vegot to go find your feed. You've
got to copy the feed. Go onApple Podcasts, click on the three
(21:42):
little dots. It's just thateasy. So again, I switched. I didn't
really do anything. It'sstill. You go to askthepodcastcoach.com
awesome. It's just now there'sa button there for Supercast where
before it was a button forPatreon where, you know, if I'd been
saying, oh, go to patreon.comDaveJackson okay. Getting people,
you know, like, it's apodcast. I've. Unless that was somehow
(22:05):
dynamically inserted, there'sno way I'd have to go back and rerecord
all those episodes.
Yeah. And there's also thewhole thing about you're mentioning
another brand name in yourpodcast. And will people even know
how to spell that brand namecorrectly? Yeah, like I, I've seen
it so often when people say Iwas trying to join your patron, but
I can't find you on patron.Com. It's no, it's Patreon, that
(22:29):
kind of thing. But you canmake a landing page or even simply
a redirect or whatever it is.Even if you do link that funding
tag directly to Patreon, youshould be allowed to do that now
in iOS. And also you've beenallowed to do that in Google because
Google had a very similarissue happen on their side. It's
(22:49):
just it didn't make such a bigsplash because Google wasn't being
such Nazis about it like Applewas no soup for you. That kind of
Nazi. So now we've got thisoption and I think for the whole
value for value concept, againas a concept, not an implementation,
(23:09):
I think the funding tag is thebetter approach because what it can
do is it can give youraudience the choice you've used for
a while. Dave the servicecalled Genius Link, and I just recently
signed up for it and I met thegentleman from Genius Link at a recent
podcasting conference. AndGenius Link is an affiliate linking
(23:29):
service where you pay them andthen insert your affiliate IDs into
their system. And what theycan do is make it much easier for
you to create affiliate linksto products that you want to recommend.
But not only that, you canmake what they call choice pages
where you link to the sameproduct on multiple retailers. So
(23:49):
I could say, hey, go buy theATR2100X USB at this link. That link
takes you to my Genius Link.And then on the Genius Link it has
that product photo andunderneath it it has Amazon B and
H, adorama, Sweetwater,Walmart, eBay, you know, whatever.
Yeah, on there. And thegentleman from Genius Link said that
(24:12):
they've been tracking thestats on it and very interestingly,
they see more conversionshappen on the Choice pages than a
single link directly to oneretailer. And I realized that makes
sense for this reason. Nowthere are those studies that the
things like if you present theaudience with too much choice or
(24:35):
it's not audience, if youpresent the consumer with with too
much choice, like too manydifferent kinds of peanut butter,
they'll be less likely to buy.The thing is here that's choosing
between a product like whichproduct is best, right? Well, when
you already know the product,the consumer can make the decision
much more easily. It's itusually comes down to one of these
(24:57):
two things. Actually I want tosee, Dave. I want to see if my guess
of these two things is correctfor you. If there's a product you
already know you want to buyand you see it's available at three
to four different retailers,what makes you choose one over the
other?
Typically it's price. Butalmost the first place I'm going
to look at is Sweetwater freecandy. But their service is insane.
(25:22):
And the price is almost alwaysthe same if not cheaper than Amazon.
The shipping is just as fastas Amazon. Because I don't know about
you, but lately Amazonshipping is like, hire some more
people, folks. And then theircustomer service is almost annoying.
It's so good. I'll get anemail, hey, this is shipped. And
then I'll get a phone callwhen it arrives. And they're like,
(25:44):
hey, is everything okay withit? Anything you need, anything else?
And I'm like, okay. And thenyou open up the box and there's free
candy. I'm like, who doesn'twant free candy?
So you just said the twothings I was thinking price and loyalty.
Yeah, so many people will shopjust purely based on price. Some
people will compromise on theprice because of loyalty. And people
(26:04):
will love it when they win onboth the price and the loyalty. That
is the consumers will love itwhen they win with that. So when
you're presenting a choicepage in that sense, some people,
they're subscribed to Amazonprime, they get that free two day
shipping or next day shippingor whatever. They maybe they live
right next door to Amazonwarehouse so they know they get their
stuff within five minutes whenthey order. Whatever the case, they
(26:27):
might always see that anddecide, I always want Amazon. So
yeah, it's nice to know it'savailable at these other places.
But I really appreciate thatthere's an Amazon link or it's the
Sweetwater thing. Maybe theyjust always want to buy from Sweetwater
regardless. And none of thesecompanies by the way are sponsoring
our content here. We haveaffiliate relationships with these
companies but they're not paidto get mentioned here, just that
(26:49):
disclosure. So when you'representing a choice in that sense,
it makes sense to me that thathelps people convert better because
for one thing they get tochoose their preferred retailer,
which maybe their preferredretailer is not Amazon. So if you're
always only promoting Amazonaffiliate links, it would make sense
(27:12):
that your links aren'tconverting as well. Maybe they prefer
somewhere else. But the otherthing is it also enables them to
very quickly compare on thatother metric that matters to them,
the price, they could justopen the link. Okay, you. If Amazon
is this much, B and H is thismuch, Sweetwater is this much, they're
all the same price. Or, oh,wait, this one's $5 cheaper and still
has free shipping. Okay, I'mgoing with that one. So you've enabled
(27:33):
them to make a better choice.So all that to say, I think, on the
payment side as well. Andthere is a limit, I think, to this
kind of thing where you don'twant to overload with 20 different
choices. But there is maybe onthe payment side, and this is a theory
right now for me is if youpresent the audience with a couple
(27:54):
of options for payment, thatmight make it easier for them and
maybe make it more profitablefor you. And I actually have some
experience with this for alittle while. I accepted PayPal payments
on Podgagement. Actually,before it was podgagement, back when
it was called my podcastReviews. I accepted PayPal payments
in the beginning and for manyyears. But PayPal is a pain to deal
(28:17):
with on an accounting side,and I just didn't want to mess with
it. But I also wondered whatwould be the cost to not use PayPal
anymore. And I experimentedwith it, and I experimented with
hiding the PayPal paymentoption on my checkout process. And
sure enough, I got fewerconversions when I removed PayPal
(28:40):
from the site because peoplewanted PayPal now for me, I decided
it's not worth it to me tokeep supporting PayPal. I'll take
the hit just because I don'twant to have the personal expense
of dealing with PayPal. Butthat proves that point or helps confirm
that point that sometimes theaudience needs more choices. So for
(29:02):
your funding tag, what mightbe better is pointing them to a page
on your site where you havethose links of, hey, you can send
us PayPal, you can send uscrypto through this. You can pay
with your credit card righthere. Here's the form right here.
Or you can. Here's the P.O.box for you to send us a check or
cash or whatever. Or here'sthe buy me a coffee link. Here's
(29:23):
the Patreon link that can allbe on that page that you point people
to. And I love deferring thedetails of the call to action like
that as well. So your call toaction can be as simple as visit,
slash, awesome, or whatever.And then they go there and they can
make their choice of which waythey want to support you.
(29:43):
And then the thing you want tobe. Cause I thought about this. Whatever
that page is, go to it on yourphone and see what it looks like.
Because back in the day,right, there used to be people listening
on their computer. Nobody'slistening to a podcast on a computer.
Very few compared to the earlydays. And so you want to make sure
(30:04):
that those buttons are big,they're easy to find, and they can
click on them on a phonebecause that's where a big chunk
of your audience, they'regoing to click on that button, and
then it takes them to thatpage. You want to make sure that
works on your phone.
Something. I'm glad that wehaven't said this word, but this
is one of my concerns about arisky future of the value for value
(30:26):
ecosystem and concept the worddonate. I think there's some risk
to using the word donate. Andyou've had this conversation with
your cpa, haven't you?
Yeah. Cause if people thinkit's a donation, they might actually
want to claim that on theirtaxes. And then they go look for
Ask the Podcast Coach in thenonprofit world. And they're like,
(30:48):
we can't find a nonprofitlabeled Ask the Podcast Coach. And
they're like, oh, okay.Because somebody at PodPage had said,
hey, we have links, like ifyou do a, you know, whether it's
PayPal or Buy Me a Coffee orKo Fi or GoFundMe. And somebody said,
hey, can you guys add stripewith a P? And I was like, oh, we
(31:10):
don't have that. Okay. And sofirst I was like, you can make a
link in stripe and you can.And so I went over and just in their.
Their support area, I justtyped in donate button. And in that,
they have a lot of thingsthat's like, hey, easy with the donate
button. You might want to callthis. And this is Adam's favorite
term, a tip. And I was like,oh, he's not going to like that.
(31:32):
But there was a lot ofdocumentation, kind of the same thing,
like, be careful calling thisa donation, because you're not really
a nonprofit. So you got to becareful with that.
I like the term give back.It's a combination of concepts. I've
heard different people say.I've seen some studies on nonprofits
(31:54):
that have said that donations.And this is in the nonprofit organization,
tax deductible donation world.But they've shown that when they
use the term gift. Would youlike to gift to someone? When they
use that term, their donationshave gone up and they have to use
that term consistentlythroughout the call to action, like
on the buttons in theirlanguage. And Everything. So nowhere
(32:16):
does it say support or donateor anything like that. And they cross
compared it to words likedonate and support and they found
that the word gift convertedmuch better. And I think that makes
sense because people, I think,have a more emotional connection
to the word gift. They thinkof like the joy of at Christmas time,
when you give a gift tosomeone and see them open it up and
(32:39):
oh, wow, you know, it's justwhat I wanted so much. You know,
that expression of love andgetting to enjoy people seeing them
open their gifts and receivetheir gifts. I think that makes sense.
Now, that word doesn't work somuch in the podcast world, but I
had this thought of the termgive back because it does a couple
(33:01):
of things. One, it doesn'thave this negative or potential risky
connotation of donateassociated with it. But the other
thing is I love it for how itbuilds into the value for value concept
of really, we're talking abouta sense of reciprocity, where when
I say, not just would you giveto the podcast, but would you give
(33:23):
back to the podcast? What thatextra word back is adding is that
sense of, hey, I'm alreadygiving something to you of value.
Would you consider giving somevalue back in exchange? And it doesn't
have to. You don't have to usethose actual words exchange. But
give back to the podcast canbe a better way to use that. So if
(33:48):
you're in that area of usingthe word donate, be careful. That
is a risky future. I don'tthink so much you're the one in trouble,
but you could get other peoplein trouble. But certainly there could
be a point where, I don'tknow, some companies or government
organizations starts to tryand crack down on saying, hey, you
really shouldn't be doingthis. Like, the FTC would probably
(34:10):
be the people to do this ifthey haven't done it already since
they started cracking down.They still call it guidelines, though.
And if you've seen Pirates ofthe Caribbean or Caribbean, whichever
one that you watched, Hang thecode and Hang the rules, they're
more like guidelines anyway.Yeah, well, the FTC guidelines kind
of treat it like law. Andthere are some other countries, though,
(34:31):
that have similar guidelinesor actual laws around language and
the ways that you can endorsethings. Be careful with that word
donate. That is a riskyfuture. And with anything, any kind
of terminology that you'reusing, there is some risk to how
you communicate that. Sothat's why I think the best way to
communicate it is reallyaround this concept of value for
(34:51):
value of hey, we've given younot we're selling you something of
value unless you are selling,but we've given you something of
value for free. And if youfind value in that, would you consider
giving some value back to us?
Yeah, because the other thingit does is you can give somebody
three easy steps to blah,blah, blah, whatever it is, or today
(35:15):
I'm doing a review of aproduct. I mean, we watch movie reviews
because we don't want to gosit in a movie for two hours. It's
awful, right? You know, sothose people are saving you time.
You just don't realize it. Andso there are times when you just
by reminding people, like,hey, if this is a great fit for you,
as I talked about this pieceof equipment, you know, you might
(35:37):
consider using my affiliatelink in the show notes. That's a
way to give back. And so justby reminding them that, hey, you
just spent X amount of timewith me and hopefully you're in a
better place than before youhit play. And just by politely reminding
them that, hey, I gave yousome value, they might actually give
some back. So that's the coolthing. It's kind of the whole teacher,
(36:00):
tell them what you're going totell them, tell them and then tell
them what you told them sothat you're kind of reminding them
that, hey, I spent some timeon this, this was valuable and you
got something out of it. Can Ihave some of that back now?
What have you thought aboutstreaming payments, both as a podcaster
receiving them and as alistener sending them? Like, what's
(36:20):
been your feelings about notthe experience, like the technological
experience, but the emotionalexperience? Do you have much of a
different emotional experiencewith the streaming payments versus
Boostergrams or any kind ofsingle one off payments?
Yeah, very much so. Because,you know, and the other apps I was
(36:42):
thinking of were podverse andTrue Fans are ones that have that
built in. And I can put moneyin my wallet, but I never got a notification.
Sometimes the app might say,hey, you've got nothing in your wallet.
But there wasn't any kind ofred flashing light or there wasn't
an email that's like, hey, youbomb your. Your wallet's empty. So
(37:03):
there'd be time when I'd belistening and I would go to Boost
and that's when I would see,oh, wait, I don't have any money
in my wallet.
Oh, because it all streamed out.
It all streamed out. Andthat's when I would get this feeling
in my heart of like, oh, I gotvalue. I'M not giving value back.
And I kind of felt like Iripped them off. And so then I would
(37:24):
fill up my wallet and go backand send a boost because I have no
idea how long it's been empty.And so there is definitely a different
way. And when I started usingpocketcast, I want to say there were
three, maybe four shows that Iwas listening to on Podcast Guru,
which was kind of a pain inthe butt because everything else
(37:46):
is in one place. And so I wastalking with Matt Kundal of soundoff
Podcast. They said, hey, inthe event you see streaming satoshis
dry up for me, it's not that Isaid, I'm probably going to move
everything to PocketCast. Isaid, and I'll just send you a fiver
every now and then, becausethat's probably more than I gave
(38:08):
him in satoshis, because I wasstreaming, I think at something like
50 satoshis a minute orsomething like that, because I wanted
it to be small so that as Ilistened to more shows, everybody
would get a piece of the piecewas the idea. And I was like, but
there is a thing where I'mlike, oh, wait, what's going on with
Todd and Rob? Oh, hold on, Igotta switch apps to listen to them.
(38:29):
And so it's just one of thosewhere I'm like, again, first world
problems, but I'm kind oflike, oh, wait, I gotta go to Podcast
Guru now to listen. And I waslike, it would just be so much easier
if they were all in one place,because then they could be in my
playlist and things like that.So I am still doing that. I still
have two apps going. But it'sbeen on my mind that I'm like, I
might quit doing that justbecause it's, again, gotta go into
(38:53):
strike with a K. Put money infrom my bank so I can go into the
thing and throw it into thething. You know, it's like, okay.
And if they're not gonna makeit easier and this is the way it's
gonna be, I was like, maybeI'll just. Like I said, you know,
hey, put something in yourfunding tag and I'll throw you some
money another way, maybe. Idon't know. Dave, how do you feel
about it?
(39:13):
I. I think it's a neat idea,but I've never thought it should
really have been implementedthe way it was, because, for one
thing, I. I think JamesCridland really pointed this out
in the beginning, and it makessense because he was a victim of
this, in a sense where PodNews Daily is a very short podcast,
(39:36):
and even in a week's worth oflistening, it's shorter than than
many single episodes of otherpodcasts. But the value I get from
POD News and the value hedelivers and packs in such a small
little nugget of POD News ismuch higher. So for me to then have
(39:57):
to sit and here's the thing,there's a great book out there. It's
a bit outdated in some of itstechnological talks, but the concept,
though, isn't outdated.
It's.
Don't make me think it's abook about user interface design
and a lot of great studies andinformation in there, but it's the
thing of don't make peoplehave to think about some of these
(40:19):
decisions, make it obvious andeasy for them. And I think the streaming
satoshis and just streamingpayments of any kind are one of those
kinds of things where itrequires you to think about. Like
let's take POD News forexample here. It's a very short podcast.
There was at one point he wasaround only two minutes, and now
(40:41):
I think it's a little bitlonger, but still very short daily
podcast. Now for me to thinkabout, okay, how much is that worth?
To me if the episodes areabout three minutes on average? So
that means I need to bestreaming this many satoshis per
minute in order to give himthis much value for every episode
that I listen to, and thenthat totals up to this much value
(41:02):
per week. See, you're havingto do all of this head math or the
maths to speak British badly.I don't think the audiences should
have to do that. What I wouldso much rather see is a system where
it's. Maybe it's just a perepisode or a per month thing, kind
of like you've been able to doon Patreon for a long time, where
(41:25):
you could say for everyepisode of this I listened to, I
want to give back this much tothem. And as long as we can make
the nano payments possible, Ithink it's okay to make those be
nano payments. Because whilemy cash flow is still an issue and
I would love to be recklesslygenerous to a lot of people, I could
(41:47):
do something like 10 cents perepisode. That's super achievable.
Or 25 cents. Hey, 25 centsper. Per episode directly to the
episode host or the podcasthost. That is much more than they
would get from a podcastsponsor, paying them a typical CPM
many times more than theywould get from dynamically inserted
(42:09):
programmatic ads in theirpodcast. So don't think of 25 cents
as nothing. Of course, not allof your audience will do it. But
the Nano payments, I'd rathersee it be something where I could
just set it as a per episodething or even a per month. And maybe
the apps could do that wherethey say, you want to support this
(42:31):
podcast? Would you like tosupport it per episode? Or would
you like to support it permonth automatically and then just
set your amount in a localcurrency that, you know, none of
this satoshi stuff andwhatever's happening under the hood
is fine. But if it's a perepisode thing, or maybe if it's a
per month thing, that could beactivated only if I actually listen.
(42:53):
And so they are gettingpayment and the more I listen, the
more they get paid.Potentially that takes a lot of the
guesswork out of it for theconsumer and I think makes it a lot
easier for the podcaster as well.
Yeah, I remember I talked withTed from Apple at an event and he
(43:14):
wasn't anti at all. You know,the 2.0 stuff. He said the only thing
with the satoshi thing, hegoes, it has to be easy. And he goes,
and when I mean easy, I meaneasy. And he goes, and it's nowhere
near that. And so I'd love tosee, you know, if they're going to
take 30%, they're going totake 30%. But I'm always like, okay,
(43:36):
now that they've kind of hadthis thing, it would be interesting.
I know you can have premiumpodcasts in Apple, but it'd be great
if they made some sort ofclick here to send a payment to me
button in Apple Podcasts. Thatwould be huge.
And maybe they will at somepoint. It would still. The Apple
tax would still be an issue.But the thing is in the Apple Podcasts
(44:00):
section, not like the AppleApp Store, the whole Epic Games thing,
I think that the way thatApple Podcasts has made it so seamless
inside of the podcast app, Ithink that is worth the 15 or 30%
that you pay them becausethey've made it such a great experience.
That's it. They could make it easy.
(44:20):
And now with this whole thingthat's happened, circling back to
the Epic Games issue, what Ithink, and I hope this will do is
open the floodgates now that alot of developers will will not be
so afraid to support some ofthese fringe or edge case payment
opportunities. And there couldbe ways that the app developers could
(44:44):
build this into their apps nowand it can be profitable for them,
profitable for the podcastersand easy for the consumers. And here's
the thing about that, too. Iam not so sure it has to all be using
the same technology. Considerthis, let's say podcast app xyz,
the Acme podcast app. Thesetwo podcast apps, one of them uses
(45:06):
satoshis, one of them usesStripe the consumer. For both of
them, all they have to do isthey scan their credit card or they
use Google Pay or Apple Pay orwhatever the payment system is built
onto their phone. They don'tcare about the underlying technology.
Then from Acme podcast app, Iget satoshi's deposited into my wallet.
(45:29):
From podcast app xyz, I get amonthly Stripe deposit into my bank
account. I don't really carewhich way necessarily. What matters
more to me is that it's easyfor the audience and easy for me
to receive those payments. Soif different technologies are supported
by different apps, I thinkthat can be okay, as long as the
(45:53):
podcaster still benefits. Andfor the developer, if they're taking
their payments, they couldtake their own 10% on top of the
we'll round it up to 5% or sothat the payment gateways use. I
think that could be okay.
Yeah. It kind of goes back to,you know, the early days of podcasting
when people used to say, Idon't care how they listen, as long
(46:14):
as they listen, whether it'sApple or whatever, it's like, I don't
care how they pay me as longas they pay me.
I love that. So you heard ithere first, folks.
Yeah.
Copyright™ Dave Jackson,Skillpodcasting. Com now, all of
this conversation aboutpayment methods and everything, I
realized recently that wehaven't seen the notifications for
(46:37):
the booster grams andstreaming payments that we've received,
but we have received them. Sothank you very much for those things.
And let's just do this. Ifthere was a booster gram you wanted
us to read in the podcast,send it again with a bigger payment
this time. No, I won't saythat. I already did. So if you want
to send it with a biggerpayment, that's fine, but if it was
something really importantthat you wanted us to mention on
(46:58):
the podcast, please send itagain, even if it's only with one
satoshi. But, you know, begenerous to give back if the podcast
brought you value. So let'skind of just declare inbox bankruptcy
on that. But we are verygrateful for those streaming satoshis,
the streaming payments andsuch. And there are other ways too,
that you can support what wedo, either by buying the things that
(47:21):
Dave And I sell, or byreferring other people to the things
that we sell. Like, for me, mybig thing right now is podgagement.
So if you want to not justtrack the download metrics from your
audience, but want to trackthe engagement with your audience
and grow that relationshipwith your audience, that's what podgagement
(47:42):
is built to do. To help youtrack your ratings, reviews, your
rankings now and get feedbackfrom your audience, like voicemails
and messages from them.Discover networking opportunities
and more. Go over topodgagement. Com and to support what
Dave does, go over toschoolofpodcasting.com and Dave,
why should they do that andwhy should they send other people
(48:02):
to it?
Well, you get step by stepcourses. You get an amazing community.
We just had a marriagecounselor join, so now we're all
gonna get our marriages backin shape. So that'll be great. And
then you get unlimitedcoaching with me. So if you got a
question, I always go, here'smy calendar. And they go, I see there's
a spot on Wednesday, so Icould take that. I go, if it's available,
(48:25):
take it. And so far, that'snot been a problem. So, yeah, you
can findthat@schoolofpodcasting.com and speaking
of value for value, we bothhave affiliate programs, so if you
want to sign up as anaffiliate, you can refer all sorts
of people and make money thatway as well.
Get paid to bring other peopleto our businesses. We love that.
We love the referrals.
(48:46):
Yeah. But thanks, everybody.This has been episode 58. We do have
a contact page. If you go outto futurepodcasting.net contact you
can leave us a message thatway. You can also go to futurepodcasting.net
voicemail and we might hearyour smiling voice right here on
a future episode of the futureof podcasting.
(49:08):
Keep boosting. Should wereally say that anymore? But at least
we can keep saying keep podcasting.
There we go. Keep valuing.What do you. We need a verb for that.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides. Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.