July 23, 2024 • 47 mins
Millions of Americans entering the workforce don’t have a traditional four-year college degree. Earning a degree may not be realistic, attainable or appealing for everyone. Many folks are instead pursuing alternative educational paths—from on-the-job-training to certificates— to advance their careers. The traditional four-year degree is only one way to demonstrate needed work skills. But are prospective employers feeling the same way?
We continue to see the bachelor's degree as a requirement for many job listings and so AI-enabled resume readers will screen out otherwise capable applicants. How can we tear down this paper ceiling and create more pathways for professional development and faster skills growth without the time and financial investment that college requires for workers who may already have equivalent work experience?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(00:03):
AUDREY MICKAHAIL: One of the things (00:06):
undefined
that is really ripefor re-examination
are those screening-outmechanisms, the right way
to go about talent acquisition.
We would argue looking atthe skills they do have
rather than the credentialthey don't have is a far more
effective way to go about askills-based talent acquisition
(00:28):
hiring process.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
JILL FINLAYSON (00:31):
Welcome to the Future of Work podcast
with Berkeley Extensionand EDGE in Tech
at the University of California,focused on expanding diversity
and gender equity in tech.
EDGE in Tech is partof CITRIS, the Center
for IT Research in theInterest of Society,
and the Banatao Institute.
UC Berkeley Extension isthe continuing education arm
of the University ofCalifornia at Berkeley.
(00:54):
Millions of Americansentering the workforce
don't have a traditionalfour-year college degree.
Earning a degree may notbe realistic, attainable,
or appealing for everyone.
Many folks are,instead, pursuing
alternative educational paths,from on-the-job training
to certificates toadvance their careers.
The traditional four-yeardegree is only one way
(01:15):
to demonstrateneeded work skills.
But are the prospectiveemployers feeling the same way?
We continue to seethe bachelor's degree
as a requirement formany job listings,
and so AI-enabled resumereaders will screen out
otherwise capable applicants.
How can we tear downthis paper ceiling
and create more pathwaysfor professional development
(01:36):
and faster skillsgrowth without the time
and financial investmentcollege requires
for workers, who may alreadyhave equivalent work experience?
To discuss thisimportant topic, we're
delighted to speak with AudreyMickahail at Opportunity
at Work, whereshe is responsible
for developing thestrategy, documenting
research-based bestpractices, and, ultimately,
(01:56):
helping organizations realizetheir ability to recruit, value,
and advance STARs.
STARs are talentedindividuals skilled
through alternative routes,rather than the bachelor's
degree.
Before joiningOpportunity at Work,
Audrey built a corporateadvisory practice at Jobs
for the Future, which is focusedon equitable talent practices
(02:17):
and social impact strategies.
She was previously seniordirector at research
and consulting firm Gartner.
Welcome, Audrey.
AUDREY MICKAHAIL (02:24):
Thank you so much, Jill.
I'm so delighted tobe here with you.
JILL FINLAYSON (02:28):
You've been researching equity and access
to jobs in a number of ways.
Can you tell me alittle bit about how
you ended up at Opportunity atWork, and what was your pathway?
AUDREY MICKAHAIL (02:38):
Absolutely.
And it was, in its own way,a little bit alternative.
So I'd love tostart by just saying
that one of the things thatI've had the privilege of doing
throughout my career is tocontinue to learn, to continue
to get trained myself.
And it was through a long careerin the corporate advisory space
(03:00):
that I understood and really gotto learn quite a bit about how
practice change happens.
I got to observe itthroughout my career,
understand thefundamentals of how
really large, complexenterprises struggle
and ultimately implement change,but what is hard about it,
(03:20):
and what it takes toactually get that work done.
And it was thattraining and experience
that led me to jobsfor the future and then
later Opportunity at Work,because my personal passion was
trying to find ways toaddress economic inequality
in this country.
And I felt as though Ihad the great privilege
(03:42):
of having investmentin me and my skill
building throughout my career.
And I've certainly seen how somefolks get those opportunities,
but not everyone does.
Some folks, myself included,get the opportunity
to have bets made onthem and on their not
necessarily demonstratedskill, but potential.
(04:03):
I certainly have beenthe beneficiary of that,
and I just want to see thatopportunity get expanded
to a broader array of veryskilled and talented folks
who may not have thepedigree, but certainly
have the skill if givenaccess and opportunity.
JILL FINLAYSON (04:19):
And what inspired you to even identify
this as an area for work?
AUDREY MICKAHAIL (04:24):
Well, I had the great privilege
of learning alongside,and hopefully,
in certain circumstances,teaching executives.
And I loved that work, becauseit gave me an opportunity
to continue learningeach and every day
and to see whatchange could look like
and yet all theobstacles that folks face
when trying to enact change.
(04:46):
But what I understood by beinga sentient being in our country
today was that it's one thingto support executives who
are incredibly importantpeople that we rely on,
but that myopportunity, and where
I wanted to bringthat skill set again,
was to folks who perhapswere not in the c-suite.
And so I was reallylooking for opportunities
(05:08):
to bring not justthe notion of change,
but change with purpose to abroader array of organizations
and a broader arrayof challenges.
And the one that just spoketo me based on, frankly,
the reality of opportunity inthis country over the last 40
or so years, was one ofexpanding economic opportunity
(05:28):
for Americans.
JILL FINLAYSON (05:30):
When you talk about STARs,
or people who are usingthese alternative pathways,
describe what are thetypes of people that
fall into those categories.
How many people are we talkingabout in the workforce?
AUDREY MICKAHAIL (05:42):
So, Jill, this is the thing
that I think was suchan a-ha moment for me,
was when I realized,as a hiring manager,
that I never examined theimplication personally
of requiring a bachelor'sdegree in a job description.
I have a bachelor'sdegree, and I very much
(06:03):
overestimated the proportionof the American workforce that
also has a bachelor's degree.
I, frankly, took it for granted.
I live in theWashington DC area.
It is a very credentialedpart of the country.
And I'll admit I wasin a bit of a bubble.
Of the 140 million workers whoare active in the American labor
(06:24):
market today, fully half--
70 million-- of themare STARs, or workers
who are skilled throughalternative routes.
And that means theyhave gained skill
through short-term credentialprograms or boot camps.
They have military service.
They've gone tocommunity college,
or they've learned theirskills the same way
(06:46):
everyone learns skills--
on the job, showing upevery day, doing the work.
And so I think the importantthing to recognize here
is that the skilldevelopment is something
that we have, perhaps,underappreciated.
And the college degree,for a long time,
has been a somewhat easy proxyfor that skill development.
(07:11):
And I think oneof our core parts
of our mission andthe core argument
for us is that it isa hack that is broken,
and it's worth reexamining.
JILL FINLAYSON (07:20):
So to recap, you said 140 million workers, fully
half of them--
70 million-- have notgot a bachelor's degree,
have come abouttheir jobs and skills
through alternative paths.
AUDREY MICKAHAIL (07:31):
That's right.
That's right.
So we include in thatpopulation workers
who are a minimum of age 25.
They have a high school diploma.
They, in many cases,have some college,
but they have not completedthe bachelor's degree.
And so that's a reallystunning target for employers,
and this is where I spent mycareer, is advising leaders,
(07:53):
advising employers.
And we know that thejuice has got to be
worth the squeeze for them.
So when we say to you that it's70 million workers, fully half
the Americanworkforce, part of what
we're trying to argue for whenwe're talking to employers
is this is a target worthpaying attention to.
It is so vast.
STARs are a vast, diverse,overlooked, but yes,
(08:16):
skilled part of the workforce.
And that's, I think,the key message for us.
JILL FINLAYSON (08:21):
How did this requirement come to be?
What is the origin of havingthe degree requirement?
Are we seeing it increasein the job listings,
or are people starting tothink about alternative ways
of demonstrating skills?
AUDREY MICKAHAIL: Well, one of the things (08:36):
undefined
that we studied is whathappened in the past 20 years
with respect to bachelor'sdegree requirements.
I'm certainly oldenough and have
been in theworkforce long enough
to have worked through many upsand downs in the labor market.
I was in the workforce whendot come bubble burst and all
(08:59):
of the aftermath of that, andcertainly in the workforce
in 2008, the Great Recession.
And one of the thingsthat was actually
talked about quite a bitin the news at the time
was the fact that talentacquisition professionals
were being inundated withapplications, because there were
so many people out of work.
(09:20):
Almost out of desperation, therewas a need to filter applicants.
And so one of thethings that we observed
in the data is at that time, weactually backslid, in a sense.
And what I mean bythat is we started
to see degree requirements beingapplied in jobs that previously
did not require them.
(09:42):
One has tremendous empathy forwhy that happened at that time,
but to your pointin the intro, one
of the things that is reallyripe for re-examination
is is that still necessary?
Are those screening-outmechanisms the right way
to go about talent acquisition?
We would argue that screeningfolks in and looking
(10:05):
at the skills they do have,rather than the credential they
don't have, is a farmore effective way
to go about a skills-basedtalent acquisition hiring
process.
And part of therationale here is
if we can align on skills,as the lingua Franca,
as the common denominator ofwhat first makes individuals
(10:30):
effective in theirjobs, and secondly,
how to more productively andreliably filter candidates,
that creates a more efficientlabor market for all workers.
JILL FINLAYSON (10:44):
Let's talk about where we're coming from
and where you see we shouldbe going based on this.
So when we look at collegeeducation-- so, first of all,
we're seeing rising levelsof income inequality.
Economic upward mobility hasdeclined since the 1940s and is
not getting better.
And then we also see thatcompounded with college debt.
(11:06):
The average cost of going to afour-year institution in state
would be, like, $27,000.
Out of State, you're talking$46,000, and that's per year.
So we're talking about acouple hundred thousand dollars
over four years.
The average studentloan debt is $29,000.
So there's all ofthese factors that say
(11:27):
college education is expensive.
It does teach you how tolearn, and in some majors,
teaches you very technicalfoundational skills.
But does it teach workskills is another question.
So I'd love for your insights onhow does the college degree play
into some of theselarger societal dynamics,
(11:48):
and where do wesee opportunities
to change that dialogue?
AUDREY MICKAHAIL (11:52):
It's really critical for the conversation
to evolve away from college-or.
It's college-and.
If you want to go to college, ifthat's the right choice for you,
if you can afford it, fora whole bunch of reasons,
we are very bigbelievers in college.
(12:12):
And it is still a very reliablepath to the middle class.
The thing that wewould object to,
and the thought I wouldleave folks with is it's
a great bridge to opportunity.
The problem is when thatbecomes a drawbridge that
prevents others from beingable to experience some
of those same opportunities.
(12:34):
So it's really aboutopening the aperture
and expanding the notion of whois skilled and who is qualified.
If college is yourpath, that's fantastic,
and we would never tryand dissuade anyone
from pursuing abachelor's degree.
But that is not everyone'spreferred pathway.
The challenge hasbeen that there's
(12:55):
kind of a zero-sumgame conversation
that I think is unhelpful.
And even if we wereable to provide everyone
who wants a collegeeducation with one,
we would still be ignoring70 million STARs in the labor
market today for whom college iseither not preferable, or maybe
(13:17):
not attainable.
And so I think there's plenty ofreasons to go to college, again,
if that's what you want to do.
But we should not anchor themessage for young people today.
And I'm a mother myself.
And you either go to college,or you're somehow less than.
That's a tragicmessage, and I do
think there's so manyopportunities, whether it's
(13:40):
apprenticeship, or whetherit's trades in some way.
We're seeing aproliferation of opportunity
for folks who don't choose togo for a bachelor's degree.
That's the exciting momentthat we're in right now.
I do see a slightshift in momentum.
I think we've gota long way to go.
But I think theconversation is just
(14:02):
starting to shift in verypositive ways, where folks are
starting to recognize that,for a variety of reasons again,
whether it's based oninterest, or affordability,
or other requirementsthat individuals have
to live their lives-- whetherit's family responsibilities
or interest-- there's areal opportunity for us
(14:23):
to think more expansively andin a more nuanced way about what
it looks like to have familysustaining wages in this country
and what you need as aprerequisite to get there.
JILL FINLAYSON (14:34):
Let's talk about the prerequisites.
So once you have ajob, and many of us
got our first job in highschool or in college,
what types of skills areyou learning on the job?
And how are those skillsleading to a career
path or transferable skills?
AUDREY MICKAHAIL (14:52):
We've studied 130 million transitions
in the labor market--
for a long time, have had thisnotion of skills adjacencies
and transferable skills.
And that's a really importantconcept as well for particularly
employers to understand abouthow they recruit workers.
(15:13):
And it's important for workersto understand about themselves.
So let's take, for example, theidea of a first job that one
might have.
Like, my first job was workingin a fast food restaurant.
I was 14 years old, and Ilearned customer service skills.
I learned tocommunicate efficiently.
(15:34):
I had to learn tomultitask, time management.
In some cases, I had to dealwith things like conflict
and how to resolve conflict.
I think we have notdone as much as we
might to help folks understandand enumerate the skills
that they're gainingin their experiences
(15:55):
and how to surface those skillsfor employers in their next job,
how to talk about the veryreal and active skills
that they develop.
Just about every jobin this labor market
requires communicationskills, but do we
know how tocommunicate about that?
That's, I think, areally critical part
(16:17):
of the evolution that we'restarting to see happen.
But I think, again,long way to go here.
We're in the very early days.
That's one side of it.
That's the employee,the worker side of it.
Now, let's look at theemployer side of the equation.
When we're talking toemployers, one of the things
they often tell us is that theyhave a certain set of really
(16:39):
hard-to-fill roles.
And they employ tactics thatthey've learned over time,
and they're veryreasonable tactics.
There are things, like we havecampus recruiting initiatives,
or we know this company thatis down the road from us
has great trainingfor salespeople,
so we try to poachtheir salespeople.
(17:00):
There are all kinds of hacksthat employers have developed,
a sort of institutionalknowledge about what
makes individualseffective and what
makes them potentiallystrong contributors
to their organizations.
One of the things thatwe've done in our research
is actually examine themovement that workers have
made from one job to the other.
(17:22):
We see that everyoneactive in the labor market
makes transitionsbased on their skills.
The difference between STARsand bachelor's degree holders
is that when we lookat this calculation
that we call skills distance,between the job they're in
and the job they moveto, that skills distance
(17:43):
is much shorter for STARs.
And what that meansis, frankly, employers
take bets on a workerwith a bachelor's degree
than they are on aworker within a STAR.
So we have developed atool, and it's free to use.
It's called StellarSight and can
be reached at stellarsight.org.
(18:05):
And one of the things that thistool enables employers to do
is to search forthe job that they're
looking for-- let's sayit's software engineer--
and look at the jobs thatpeople have transitioned out
of into that target job.
So let me explain what I mean.
So if I'm looking fora software engineer,
(18:26):
and it's a prettyhard-to-fill role--
there are more openingsfor software engineers
than we have workers.
Now, I can try and competeand poach from other employers
existing software engineers,and we see employers
certainly doing that quitea bit, same as it ever was.
But what might itlook like if we
(18:46):
were to take a lookat the labor market
data that's available to usand identify the source job?
What's the job that the softwareengineer had before they
became a software engineer?
Maybe they were a web developer.
Maybe they were adatabase administrator.
And by looking atthose existing--
(19:06):
like these are real transitionsthat real workers have made
in the American labor market--
might we think more expansivelyabout what qualification means?
And maybe we couldrecruit someone
who is in that source job,and perhaps that gets us
quite a bit of the way there.
Maybe getting themthe rest of the way
(19:28):
there is really aboutstrong onboarding, coaching,
and mentoring.
Maybe there's some amount ofupskilling that might be needed.
But there are creative waysthat are, in fact, data informed
that employers can taketoday to think a bit more
creatively about theroles that they have open
(19:49):
and how to fillthem, particularly
when those rolesare harder to fill,
when there's ahigher volume role.
Getting employers to think intheir own non-traditional ways
and open up the apertureof how they think
about sourcing andtalent acquisition,
including what transitionswe have seen in the past,
(20:10):
is all aboutaddressing what I think
is a core concern for manyemployers, which is hiring
is risky.
Yes, hiring is risky, butthat's not unique to STARs.
All hiring is risky.
And so when we usedata, part of it
is in service of helpingemployers understand where they
might be able to de-riskall of their hiring,
(20:32):
and not just limit thatperception to STARs
in the workforce.
JILL FINLAYSON (20:37):
So helping these employers look
at expanding their outreachwhere they're targeting,
changing the proxies to lookfor more things that are skills
adjacent, and beingable to provide
the supports thatemployees would
need to transition from one roleup the ladder to the next role.
AUDREY MICKAHAIL: That's exactly right. (20:58):
undefined
And I would add tothat that the cost
of doing nothing,for many employers,
is higher than thecost of, perhaps,
upskilling that individualor providing coaching
and mentoring.
And I want to be clear here.
I don't want toconflate the idea
(21:18):
of upskillingsomeone and looking
at source jobs as a notionthat only benefits STARs--
just to be clear about that.
But the idea is addressingthe very real and meaningful
concerns that employershave as they're just
trying to find qualified workersto join their organizations.
(21:39):
Part of the argumentthat we have
is that the solutionsthat, by the way,
create opportunityand access for STARs,
are actually the rightmechanisms for all workers.
And getting over thathump a little bit
is where we often have theconversations with employers,
often starting with verysenior individuals who
(22:02):
want to see theirworkforces transformed.
And we can get there.
We can convince a CEOor a CHRO that expanding
the aperture, that removingdegree requirements where
they're used indiscriminatelymakes great sense.
Often, what happensnext is when we
start to talk about or with theHR professionals, the hiring
(22:23):
managers, they're justresponsible for getting
their day jobs done.
And particularly-- andhere's another moment
of empathy for thehiring manager.
Often these are individualswho are maybe hiring
a couple of times a year.
They may not behiring extensively.
So part of the challenge hereis bringing that conversation
and getting folks to thinkcreatively when, by the way,
(22:46):
they're trying tobackfill for someone,
or they just had anew position open.
And what they're strugglingwith is making sure
that they can deliver on theirobjectives, their metrics.
And so asking someoneto change their mindsets
and their processes in a worldwhere this is actually not
even their full-time job,that's a real challenge,
(23:07):
and it's one that we havea lot of empathy for.
So we do our best tocast the opportunity
in terms of what an old clientof mine used to call WIIFM--
what's in it for me.
There's a cost ofdoing nothing here.
There's a cost of not changing.
And that is why, comingback to where we started,
being clear about the factthat when you put a degree
requirement on a jobthat may not need it,
(23:30):
particularly if it's a genericbachelor's degree requirement,
you are not only eliminatingfrom consideration off the top,
you are disqualifyinghalf the workforce.
But you're also disqualifying--and it must be said--
the majority of Blackworkers, of Hispanic workers,
of veterans, of rural workers.
And so this is nota political issue.
(23:51):
This is not specific toone group or population.
This is a universal issue ofmaking our labor market more
effective for all workers.
JILL FINLAYSON: What do you think (24:02):
undefined
is the primary thingholding back STARs,
and how do we addresssome of those barriers
you just mentioned?
AUDREY MICKAHAIL (24:10):
Well, I think the lowest hanging
fruit is that misperceptionthat that's all
wrapped up in the collegeexperience and the bachelor's
degree.
I've heard folks saythings like individuals
who have attained abachelor's degree have
shown that they have grit.
I guess I would sayto that, is that
(24:31):
the only way an individualcan demonstrate grit?
I would argue it's not.
But again, expandingcollege access
is and has been veryimportant in this country,
and our post-secondaryinstitutions
are huge differentiatorsfor our economy.
They're a huge source of value.
I don't want to undermine orsuggest anything different.
(24:53):
What I would say,though, is understanding
that calculus looks differentfor different individuals.
There's an article in TheWall Street Journal this week
about the ROI of abachelor's degree.
That was fascinating,and I think
it's a question worth asking.
The simplest thingthat we can do,
and why I'm so excited tobe here with you today,
(25:13):
Jill, is to simplyconfront the perceptions
and, arguably, misperceptionsthat folks have around
what it means to go to college,the importance of college
as the primary mechanism orpathway into the workforce,
and what it means forindividuals who don't have that,
(25:33):
what it says about them.
I think we makecertain assumptions
about folks who have notattained a college degree that
are inaccurate.
JILL FINLAYSON (25:41):
My father himself came from Britain
and went to PoliceAcademy, and so never did
get his bachelor's movedto the United States,
and always had that inthe back of his mind
that he didn't have thiscredential, even though he
advanced to being a seniorVP at a large company.
So what do people internalizewith this dialogue that
you're describingaround the bachelor's?
(26:02):
I've heard stories from STARs
that they have been in jobs,they have excelled in jobs.
They've been thenput up for promotion
in for work that they haveessentially already been doing,
and they've been told,sorry, you are not
eligible for promotion,because that next job requires
a bachelor's degree.
(26:22):
And we're talking aboutindividuals who, in many cases,
have alreadydemonstrated the skill.
We wrote a case studywith the State of Maryland
under then GovernorHogan, who had a program
called No Degree, No Problem.
And Maryland ismeaningful in the state
of the movement towardsSTARs hiring and tearing
the paper ceiling, in thatMaryland was the first state
(26:45):
to stand up and say, we'regoing to tear the paper ceiling.
We're going to hire STARs.
There was an urgency,because the state
was seeing longer times tohire at that point, which
was about two years ago.
So there was a WIIFM.
There was a need to address.
There was a motivated governorwho saw this as a legacy issue
for his administration.
(27:07):
But there were alsovery human stories
that were emergingthat brought poignancy
to the opportunity forthe State of Maryland.
So, for example,one of the leaders
we interviewed for thecase study had said,
I joined the State ofMaryland with an MBA,
and I was given opportunitiesby virtue of having my degrees
(27:29):
that my colleaguesaround me did not have
because they lacked the degree.
Now, arguably, theyhad longer tenure.
They knew the work better.
The difference was I got anopportunity to get promoted,
to experience mobility inways that my colleagues didn't
based on that one difference.
(27:50):
And that just seemedpatently unfair.
On the positiveside, at the time,
the chief informationsecurity officer of the state
was himself a STAR andwas respected and beloved.
And folks saw him as an exampleof what we would call a shining
STAR, someone who is alreadyin a high wage role, someone
who is a proof pointfor what STARs can do.
(28:11):
And they got it.
They got it.
There was what they calledan inescapable logic
to removing degree requirementswhere they weren't needed.
I've even experienced this firsthand.
I was at an edtechcompany, and I
was doing a sort ofentry-level marketing role.
And they said I would not beadvanced to a full marketing
manager because I didn'thave a master's degree.
(28:34):
So this manifests itselfin a number of ways,
and now we're seeingit even manifesting
in the artificialintelligence that's used
to screen these applications.
So what are youseeing in terms of AI
and now automaticallyeliminating
people who don't havea bachelor's degree?
AUDREY MICKAHAIL (28:55):
It's such an important issue.
We hear manifestations ofthis from many of the employer
organizations we work with.
One of my colleagues told me astory about a talent acquisition
leader in an organizationwho actually didn't even
realize that the default fortheir applicant tracking system
(29:15):
was to require a degree.
So much of what we are tryingto do in these early stages,
we're seeing need that isdriving ingenuity and change.
But too often, what we'rebattling are, frankly,
fairly simple things.
And so if I would advise ifthere are employers listening,
(29:35):
don't take for granted.
Don't go to the defaults.
And I mean defaults, both fromthe perspective of perception,
from the way we'vealways done things,
and certainly also froma systems perspective.
So we're really excitedabout the possibility
of what generative AI can do.
(29:55):
At the same time, wedefinitely, as an organization,
are very concerned aboutrecreating the world as it was
rather than building theworld as it should be.
And that's the riskthat we run if we're
learning from historicaldata and, frankly, a highly
(30:16):
unequal set of systems.
That's certainly the risk.
I do think there is anincredible opportunity
for talent acquisition leaders,for employer organizations
to start to ask questionsabout how AI is being used
and to ensure that thoseapproaches, those default
(30:38):
settings, matchtheir intentions.
And my hope certainly, and thehope of Opportunity at Work
more broadly, is that we hireand vet talent based on skill
and have thatintention reflected
in our systems and ourprocesses and in our approaches.
JILL FINLAYSON (30:56):
This is more than a hiring problem, though.
This is also a retention problemand an upskilling problem.
What does it look liketo reinvest in STARs
and, as you said,workers on the whole?
AUDREY MICKAHAIL (31:07):
I love that question so much,
because we actually arehearing from employers
that where their areasof interest-- and this
is true everywhere,but in particular
in the private sector.
One of the areasthat employers have
raised as an area ofconcern is how do we
think about internal mobility?
And if I broaden thatout a little bit,
(31:28):
I would say, how do we thinkabout the full talent management
life cycle, so not justsourcing and recruiting?
And I alluded to this alittle bit earlier, but how
do we onboard effectivelyso that we don't lose them
in six months because we didn'tgive them a clear view of what
it looks like to be successfulin the context of that employer
organization?
(31:48):
What does it look like todevelop talent over time,
to give themopportunities, to provide
the feedback, and coaching,and training needed,
not only in the currentrole, but for the next role?
And that's where westart to think about what
are the mobility opportunities?
Again, I have to come back tothe understanding of skills.
(32:12):
And that's a lot ofwork, and a piece of work
that not all organizationshave fully taken on.
To be clear, that's work thatis, again, needed, I think,
for the effective functioning ofany talent management approach.
But, of course, based onthe historical inequities
and opportunities we'veseen as obstacles for STARs,
(32:34):
STARs have an opportunityto benefit, perhaps
disproportionately,in a organization that
has a skills taxonomy, and abackbone, and way of working
that is anchored in skill.
The thing I would highlightas a potential example is some
of that work is alreadyhappening-- maybe
(32:54):
not in every part ofevery organization,
but savvy leaders havealready observed things
like skill adjacenciesor opportunities.
I'll give you a quickanecdote of a CIO
I interviewed in abank, who observed
that the individuals whowere in the operations
functions of thisfinancial services company
(33:16):
made excellent programmers.
And the reasonfor that is if you
think about whatfundamentally programming
is, it's about creatingautomation for process.
The individuals coming outof their operations team
had a deep understanding ofand orientation around process.
And this is a non-obvious, insome ways, notion or application
(33:37):
of the skills adjacency concept.
But this was a progressiveand thoughtful leader
with a real need andmade an observation
that she was actually able totransform into an agreement
to create a career pathwayfor folks from operations
into IT in that case,again, based on the fact
(33:58):
that now we're just tryingto do the right thing,
but actually there's a realbusiness need and a real skill
that folks from theoperations background
were able to infuseinto the IT department.
JILL FINLAYSON (34:10):
I'm glad to hear you return to the STARs,
the employee themselves.
We've talked a lot aboutthe employer goals and needs
and opportunities.
But for the person who doesn'thave a traditional bachelor's
degree, what are someof the gateway jobs,
and how can that help unlocknew pathways for them?
AUDREY MICKAHAIL: Gateway jobs are (34:28):
undefined
those jobs that are accessiblefrom lower-wage roles.
And, based on theobservations we've made,
the transitionwork I talked about
before, they tend to open upmultiple higher-wage pathways.
So they're really likespringboards or skeleton
keys that unlock multiplepathways for workers.
(34:50):
And as such, they'rereally critical jobs.
They are things like customerservice rep, or computer support
specialist.
There's a whole list of them.
And again, this isresearch that we've
done and is freely available.
Those are just a coupleof examples of jobs that,
again, accessible fromlower wage positions,
(35:10):
and also are wonderfulskill-building opportunities
that then open up additionalpathways into higher-wage work.
So that's the research behindit and a couple of examples.
I guess if I were advisingboth employers and STARs,
I would encouragefolks to think about,
for the employer perspective,what are the gateway
(35:32):
jobs in your organization?
We can certainlypoint to what we've
seen in the labormarket writ large,
but savvy employers haveunderstood that they probably
have a job that looks like that,that is a way for them to bring
workers into theirorganizations,
give them a set ofconcrete work skills,
(35:53):
get them acclimatedto their organization
and what success lookslike in their context,
and then provide thoseopportunities to their workers
to then start to thinkabout other pathways.
I'd love to give acouple of examples.
And in so doing, myhope is that workers
will see in their ownexperiences and the jobs
(36:14):
that they've sought out whatopportunities get opened up
to them from those particularexamples or those steps
in their career paths.
We wrote a casestudy with Microsoft.
There was a tremendous leader.
His name is Todd Miner.
He ran what werecalled, at one point,
the Academies within Microsoft.
(36:34):
The use case or the opportunitythat had arisen at Microsoft
is at the beginningof the pandemic, all
of the retail locations thatMicrosoft operated were shutting
down because of the pandemic.
And that created anopportunity, actually,
for the company to thinkdifferently about workers who
(36:54):
were in those retail positions.
And part of that--and again, I want
to come back to thistheme of creative leaders
making observations about andtaking care of their workers.
In this case, what hadbeen observed was that
in the Microsoftretail environments,
the retail salespeople were doing
very high volumes of B2B sales,business to business sales.
(37:18):
So not just consumers comingin and buying the device,
but there were actuallypretty large dollar amounts.
It was a significantamount of business
happening in theretail environment
that we're actually B2B.
What that told Todd was theseare individuals who are skilled.
They're closing prettylarge deals, larger
than we might have expected.
(37:39):
And that a-ha for himwas that individuals
in the retail environmentcould, with their skills,
transition into what Microsoftcalled digital sales.
Digital sales happens to be oneof those roles for Microsoft.
It is a gateway job.
It's a role that people come in,take on, they do for 18 months,
(38:00):
and often find pathwaysinto other parts
of the organization-- atremendous skill building
opportunity, accessible froma lower-wage role, which
the retail sales role was,and a place where you can kind
of learn the ropes,develop skill, figure out
what might be an exciting nextstep in the career pathway.
(38:20):
That program wassuccessful enough
that they ended up expandingit globally and expanding it
to other roles.
There's a lot moreto say about that,
but the principlehere that I think
is so illuminating and excitingfor someone like me who
wants to see STARsachieve mobility
is this was based on anobservation that Todd made.
(38:42):
We actually also havereams of labor market data
to say that yeah, retail salesto sales rep is one of the most,
if not the mostcommon transition that
happens in the labor market.
And so this is a wellunderstood pathway.
How might we expand it foreven more STARs who are
interested in careers in sales?
JILL FINLAYSON (39:04):
For people in these roles,
I think that's a great example.
How can you as a personadvocate for yourself?
And if you are a communitycollege student, or a veteran,
or somebody who'sworking in retail,
or somebody who's workingin custodial and building
maintenance, how do youarticulate your skills better?
Or where can you go tolearn how to articulate
(39:24):
those transferable skills?
AUDREY MICKAHAIL (39:27):
I think one of the things that is helpful
is plenty of tools outthere, and there's actually
really exciting opportunities.
There's the US ChamberFoundation, IBM.
There are a fewdifferent organizations
that are thinking reallyhard about this opportunity
of helping workers andlearners take their experiences
(39:49):
and translate theminto a skills-based CV
or resume in orderto support folks
in developing that language.
And I think it is areally big opportunity.
So the good newsis there are lots
of examples oforganizations that
are working on thisopportunity for workers
to help them articulatetheir skills.
(40:10):
So there's technology,there are tools
coming in the absence of that.
One of the thingsthat we do, just
as a part of our practice asan organization, is really sit,
and think, and observe workers,and think about the skills
that they're deploying.
When we try tounderstand what is
this job in a standardizedway, what is it comprised
(40:33):
of from a skillperspective, there
are tools to help you do that.
However, I think there's alsojust the simple reflection
exercise of what are the thingsI now know how to do as a worker
that I didn't knowhow to do previously?
What did I do today that was inthe realm of problem solving?
(40:54):
Or how did I spend my time?
I think there's a lot we can doas individuals to articulate,
to surface, to recognize theskills that we deploy day
to day, that we simply haven'tdeveloped the muscle to do.
So yes, go look for the tools.
(41:14):
The tools are out there.
But also, you as an individualin the workforce showing up
every day, have the bestinsight into the skills
that you are deploying.
And when I thinkfor myself, or I
talk to my own children whohave summer jobs and things
like that, I do encouragethem to get really clear
about the skills thatthey're learning,
(41:37):
the skills thatthey're bringing,
and to list those as they thinkabout updating their resumes
or the applications thatthey might put in for jobs,
to denominate their value as aworker in terms of those skills
that they have builtand the ones that they
are seeking to build.
I don't know if that'sa super helpful answer,
but we can get prettyfar down the road just
(41:59):
in your own reflection of whatyou're doing day to day, how
that shifts over time, theproblems you're able to solve.
JILL FINLAYSON (42:05):
That's a great jumping off
point for the employee.
We've talked a lot aboutthings that the employer should
do, everything from howdo you define a better
proxy for the bachelor'sto how do you really
make a skills-basedjob description
and setting some standards.
But if you were to give twoactionable first steps, what
would be your advicefor the employer?
AUDREY MICKAHAIL (42:27):
The first thing I would say
is go to where your need is.
Every organizationis, to some extent,
in a constant reshaping oftheir workforces over time.
And doing that big old strategicworkforce planning exercise
may be overwhelming.
But you can startwith one job family.
(42:50):
You might think about theroles that are hardest
to fill in your organization.
You might also thinkabout new-to-world roles
in your organization,because the reality
is there are all of thesenew jobs that are emerging.
And that's a greatplace to question.
Do we really need a bachelor'sdegree for this particular job
(43:13):
when, frankly,there are no degrees
out there in that disciplineor there are few of them,
and it's a new enoughdiscipline that, frankly,
the post-secondary systemmay not have yet caught up?
So what would be the purpose inrequiring a generic bachelor's
degree in something thatno one has actually studied
or very few peoplehave actually studied?
(43:34):
So it's reallystarting from a place
of where does needmeet opportunity?
How do we start in a way thatis practical and achievable?
How do we come up witha plan of assembling
what our friends and colleaguesat the State of Maryland
called a coalitionof the willing?
Those two things-- start withyour business need and start
(43:54):
with receptivebusiness partners--
are probably the places I wouldencourage employers to just
get started.
JILL FINLAYSON: Is there anything (44:01):
undefined
we haven't touchedupon regarding
the tearing of the paperceiling and the future of work?
Any final words to share.
AUDREY MICKAHAIL: The thought I'd (44:10):
undefined
love to leave folkswith is we see
exemplary employersand incredible workers
coming together under thisbanner of tearing the paper
ceiling.
It's early days.
We feel like we'rejust getting started.
But the momentum, theenergy, the inescapable logic
(44:32):
of doing this worktogether is very clear.
The next steps are theones that we are going to--
I think we need to come togetheron and help problem solve
together, because we're in thisemerging space where no one
organization hasfigured it all out.
So tearing thepaper ceiling for us
(44:53):
is not just about creatingopportunity for STARs.
It is also aboutemployer communities.
How do we cometogether and share
what's working, what's hard?
How do we anticipate theobstacles and problem solve them
together, given the fact thatno one organization, no one
leader has it all figured out?
(45:15):
So how do we come togetherand figure it out together?
And how do we sustainenergy and momentum, even
when, inevitably, there aresetbacks and challenges,
and things don't go perhapsaccording to the timeline
that we expected?
So I think we're in anincredible moment for the STARs
movement, for theskills first movement.
(45:37):
We are bringing data tolight across the field.
This is not just anopportunity at work thing,
but so many partnersare banding together
to understand how we make anAmerican labor market that
is effective and powerful.
And it's working,not just for STARs,
but it's working for everyone.
It's working foremployers as well.
JILL FINLAYSON (45:59):
I think that is exactly the point, that this
is an incredible moment, notonly to meet the needs of equity
and improve upward mobilityand access to fulfilling jobs
and growth, but it'salso an opportunity
to fulfill the employer need forskilled employees and retaining
top talent.
And so it's really exciting tosee you dive into the research
(46:19):
here.
Thank you so muchfor joining us.
AUDREY MICKAHAIL: Thank you, Jill. (46:21):
undefined
Appreciate the time.
JILL FINLAYSON (46:23):
And with that, I hope
you've enjoyed this latestin a long series of podcasts
that we'll be sendingyour way every month.
Please share withfriends and colleagues
who may be interested in takingthis Future of Work journey
with us.
And make sure to check outextension.berkeley.edu to find
a variety of coursesand certificates
to help you thrive in thisnew working landscape.
And to see what's comingup at EDGE in Tech,
(46:45):
go ahead and visitedge.Berkeley.edu.
Thanks so much forlistening, and we'll
be back next month with anotherlook at the future of work.
The Future of Work podcastis hosted by Jill Finlayson,
produced by Sarah Benzuly,and edited by Matt Dipietro
and Natalie Newman.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(00:03):
AUDREY MICKAHAIL: One of the things (00:06):
undefined
that is really ripefor re-examination
are those screening-outmechanisms, the right way
to go about talent acquisition.
We would argue looking atthe skills they do have
rather than the credentialthey don't have is a far more
effective way to go about askills-based talent acquisition
(00:28):
hiring process.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
JILL FINLAYSON (00:31):
Welcome to the Future of Work podcast
with Berkeley Extensionand EDGE in Tech
at the University of California,focused on expanding diversity
and gender equity in tech.
EDGE in Tech is partof CITRIS, the Center
for IT Research in theInterest of Society,
and the Banatao Institute.
UC Berkeley Extension isthe continuing education arm
of the University ofCalifornia at Berkeley.
(00:54):
Millions of Americansentering the workforce
don't have a traditionalfour-year college degree.
Earning a degree may notbe realistic, attainable,
or appealing for everyone.
Many folks are,instead, pursuing
alternative educational paths,from on-the-job training
to certificates toadvance their careers.
The traditional four-yeardegree is only one way
(01:15):
to demonstrateneeded work skills.
But are the prospectiveemployers feeling the same way?
We continue to seethe bachelor's degree
as a requirement formany job listings,
and so AI-enabled resumereaders will screen out
otherwise capable applicants.
How can we tear downthis paper ceiling
and create more pathwaysfor professional development
(01:36):
and faster skillsgrowth without the time
and financial investmentcollege requires
for workers, who may alreadyhave equivalent work experience?
To discuss thisimportant topic, we're
delighted to speak with AudreyMickahail at Opportunity
at Work, whereshe is responsible
for developing thestrategy, documenting
research-based bestpractices, and, ultimately,
(01:56):
helping organizations realizetheir ability to recruit, value,
and advance STARs.
STARs are talentedindividuals skilled
through alternative routes,rather than the bachelor's
degree.
Before joiningOpportunity at Work,
Audrey built a corporateadvisory practice at Jobs
for the Future, which is focusedon equitable talent practices
(02:17):
and social impact strategies.
She was previously seniordirector at research
and consulting firm Gartner.
Welcome, Audrey.
AUDREY MICKAHAIL (02:24):
Thank you so much, Jill.
I'm so delighted tobe here with you.
JILL FINLAYSON (02:28):
You've been researching equity and access
to jobs in a number of ways.
Can you tell me alittle bit about how
you ended up at Opportunity atWork, and what was your pathway?
AUDREY MICKAHAIL (02:38):
Absolutely.
And it was, in its own way,a little bit alternative.
So I'd love tostart by just saying
that one of the things thatI've had the privilege of doing
throughout my career is tocontinue to learn, to continue
to get trained myself.
And it was through a long careerin the corporate advisory space
(03:00):
that I understood and really gotto learn quite a bit about how
practice change happens.
I got to observe itthroughout my career,
understand thefundamentals of how
really large, complexenterprises struggle
and ultimately implement change,but what is hard about it,
(03:20):
and what it takes toactually get that work done.
And it was thattraining and experience
that led me to jobsfor the future and then
later Opportunity at Work,because my personal passion was
trying to find ways toaddress economic inequality
in this country.
And I felt as though Ihad the great privilege
(03:42):
of having investmentin me and my skill
building throughout my career.
And I've certainly seen how somefolks get those opportunities,
but not everyone does.
Some folks, myself included,get the opportunity
to have bets made onthem and on their not
necessarily demonstratedskill, but potential.
(04:03):
I certainly have beenthe beneficiary of that,
and I just want to see thatopportunity get expanded
to a broader array of veryskilled and talented folks
who may not have thepedigree, but certainly
have the skill if givenaccess and opportunity.
JILL FINLAYSON (04:19):
And what inspired you to even identify
this as an area for work?
AUDREY MICKAHAIL (04:24):
Well, I had the great privilege
of learning alongside,and hopefully,
in certain circumstances,teaching executives.
And I loved that work, becauseit gave me an opportunity
to continue learningeach and every day
and to see whatchange could look like
and yet all theobstacles that folks face
when trying to enact change.
(04:46):
But what I understood by beinga sentient being in our country
today was that it's one thingto support executives who
are incredibly importantpeople that we rely on,
but that myopportunity, and where
I wanted to bringthat skill set again,
was to folks who perhapswere not in the c-suite.
And so I was reallylooking for opportunities
(05:08):
to bring not justthe notion of change,
but change with purpose to abroader array of organizations
and a broader arrayof challenges.
And the one that just spoketo me based on, frankly,
the reality of opportunity inthis country over the last 40
or so years, was one ofexpanding economic opportunity
(05:28):
for Americans.
JILL FINLAYSON (05:30):
When you talk about STARs,
or people who are usingthese alternative pathways,
describe what are thetypes of people that
fall into those categories.
How many people are we talkingabout in the workforce?
AUDREY MICKAHAIL (05:42):
So, Jill, this is the thing
that I think was suchan a-ha moment for me,
was when I realized,as a hiring manager,
that I never examined theimplication personally
of requiring a bachelor'sdegree in a job description.
I have a bachelor'sdegree, and I very much
(06:03):
overestimated the proportionof the American workforce that
also has a bachelor's degree.
I, frankly, took it for granted.
I live in theWashington DC area.
It is a very credentialedpart of the country.
And I'll admit I wasin a bit of a bubble.
Of the 140 million workers whoare active in the American labor
(06:24):
market today, fully half--
70 million-- of themare STARs, or workers
who are skilled throughalternative routes.
And that means theyhave gained skill
through short-term credentialprograms or boot camps.
They have military service.
They've gone tocommunity college,
or they've learned theirskills the same way
(06:46):
everyone learns skills--
on the job, showing upevery day, doing the work.
And so I think the importantthing to recognize here
is that the skilldevelopment is something
that we have, perhaps,underappreciated.
And the college degree,for a long time,
has been a somewhat easy proxyfor that skill development.
(07:11):
And I think oneof our core parts
of our mission andthe core argument
for us is that it isa hack that is broken,
and it's worth reexamining.
JILL FINLAYSON (07:20):
So to recap, you said 140 million workers, fully
half of them--
70 million-- have notgot a bachelor's degree,
have come abouttheir jobs and skills
through alternative paths.
AUDREY MICKAHAIL (07:31):
That's right.
That's right.
So we include in thatpopulation workers
who are a minimum of age 25.
They have a high school diploma.
They, in many cases,have some college,
but they have not completedthe bachelor's degree.
And so that's a reallystunning target for employers,
and this is where I spent mycareer, is advising leaders,
(07:53):
advising employers.
And we know that thejuice has got to be
worth the squeeze for them.
So when we say to you that it's70 million workers, fully half
the Americanworkforce, part of what
we're trying to argue for whenwe're talking to employers
is this is a target worthpaying attention to.
It is so vast.
STARs are a vast, diverse,overlooked, but yes,
(08:16):
skilled part of the workforce.
And that's, I think,the key message for us.
JILL FINLAYSON (08:21):
How did this requirement come to be?
What is the origin of havingthe degree requirement?
Are we seeing it increasein the job listings,
or are people starting tothink about alternative ways
of demonstrating skills?
AUDREY MICKAHAIL: Well, one of the things (08:36):
undefined
that we studied is whathappened in the past 20 years
with respect to bachelor'sdegree requirements.
I'm certainly oldenough and have
been in theworkforce long enough
to have worked through many upsand downs in the labor market.
I was in the workforce whendot come bubble burst and all
(08:59):
of the aftermath of that, andcertainly in the workforce
in 2008, the Great Recession.
And one of the thingsthat was actually
talked about quite a bitin the news at the time
was the fact that talentacquisition professionals
were being inundated withapplications, because there were
so many people out of work.
(09:20):
Almost out of desperation, therewas a need to filter applicants.
And so one of thethings that we observed
in the data is at that time, weactually backslid, in a sense.
And what I mean bythat is we started
to see degree requirements beingapplied in jobs that previously
did not require them.
(09:42):
One has tremendous empathy forwhy that happened at that time,
but to your pointin the intro, one
of the things that is reallyripe for re-examination
is is that still necessary?
Are those screening-outmechanisms the right way
to go about talent acquisition?
We would argue that screeningfolks in and looking
(10:05):
at the skills they do have,rather than the credential they
don't have, is a farmore effective way
to go about a skills-basedtalent acquisition hiring
process.
And part of therationale here is
if we can align on skills,as the lingua Franca,
as the common denominator ofwhat first makes individuals
(10:30):
effective in theirjobs, and secondly,
how to more productively andreliably filter candidates,
that creates a more efficientlabor market for all workers.
JILL FINLAYSON (10:44):
Let's talk about where we're coming from
and where you see we shouldbe going based on this.
So when we look at collegeeducation-- so, first of all,
we're seeing rising levelsof income inequality.
Economic upward mobility hasdeclined since the 1940s and is
not getting better.
And then we also see thatcompounded with college debt.
(11:06):
The average cost of going to afour-year institution in state
would be, like, $27,000.
Out of State, you're talking$46,000, and that's per year.
So we're talking about acouple hundred thousand dollars
over four years.
The average studentloan debt is $29,000.
So there's all ofthese factors that say
(11:27):
college education is expensive.
It does teach you how tolearn, and in some majors,
teaches you very technicalfoundational skills.
But does it teach workskills is another question.
So I'd love for your insights onhow does the college degree play
into some of theselarger societal dynamics,
(11:48):
and where do wesee opportunities
to change that dialogue?
AUDREY MICKAHAIL (11:52):
It's really critical for the conversation
to evolve away from college-or.
It's college-and.
If you want to go to college, ifthat's the right choice for you,
if you can afford it, fora whole bunch of reasons,
we are very bigbelievers in college.
(12:12):
And it is still a very reliablepath to the middle class.
The thing that wewould object to,
and the thought I wouldleave folks with is it's
a great bridge to opportunity.
The problem is when thatbecomes a drawbridge that
prevents others from beingable to experience some
of those same opportunities.
(12:34):
So it's really aboutopening the aperture
and expanding the notion of whois skilled and who is qualified.
If college is yourpath, that's fantastic,
and we would never tryand dissuade anyone
from pursuing abachelor's degree.
But that is not everyone'spreferred pathway.
The challenge hasbeen that there's
(12:55):
kind of a zero-sumgame conversation
that I think is unhelpful.
And even if we wereable to provide everyone
who wants a collegeeducation with one,
we would still be ignoring70 million STARs in the labor
market today for whom college iseither not preferable, or maybe
(13:17):
not attainable.
And so I think there's plenty ofreasons to go to college, again,
if that's what you want to do.
But we should not anchor themessage for young people today.
And I'm a mother myself.
And you either go to college,or you're somehow less than.
That's a tragicmessage, and I do
think there's so manyopportunities, whether it's
(13:40):
apprenticeship, or whetherit's trades in some way.
We're seeing aproliferation of opportunity
for folks who don't choose togo for a bachelor's degree.
That's the exciting momentthat we're in right now.
I do see a slightshift in momentum.
I think we've gota long way to go.
But I think theconversation is just
(14:02):
starting to shift in verypositive ways, where folks are
starting to recognize that,for a variety of reasons again,
whether it's based oninterest, or affordability,
or other requirementsthat individuals have
to live their lives-- whetherit's family responsibilities
or interest-- there's areal opportunity for us
(14:23):
to think more expansively andin a more nuanced way about what
it looks like to have familysustaining wages in this country
and what you need as aprerequisite to get there.
JILL FINLAYSON (14:34):
Let's talk about the prerequisites.
So once you have ajob, and many of us
got our first job in highschool or in college,
what types of skills areyou learning on the job?
And how are those skillsleading to a career
path or transferable skills?
AUDREY MICKAHAIL (14:52):
We've studied 130 million transitions
in the labor market--
for a long time, have had thisnotion of skills adjacencies
and transferable skills.
And that's a really importantconcept as well for particularly
employers to understand abouthow they recruit workers.
(15:13):
And it's important for workersto understand about themselves.
So let's take, for example, theidea of a first job that one
might have.
Like, my first job was workingin a fast food restaurant.
I was 14 years old, and Ilearned customer service skills.
I learned tocommunicate efficiently.
(15:34):
I had to learn tomultitask, time management.
In some cases, I had to dealwith things like conflict
and how to resolve conflict.
I think we have notdone as much as we
might to help folks understandand enumerate the skills
that they're gainingin their experiences
(15:55):
and how to surface those skillsfor employers in their next job,
how to talk about the veryreal and active skills
that they develop.
Just about every jobin this labor market
requires communicationskills, but do we
know how tocommunicate about that?
That's, I think, areally critical part
(16:17):
of the evolution that we'restarting to see happen.
But I think, again,long way to go here.
We're in the very early days.
That's one side of it.
That's the employee,the worker side of it.
Now, let's look at theemployer side of the equation.
When we're talking toemployers, one of the things
they often tell us is that theyhave a certain set of really
(16:39):
hard-to-fill roles.
And they employ tactics thatthey've learned over time,
and they're veryreasonable tactics.
There are things, like we havecampus recruiting initiatives,
or we know this company thatis down the road from us
has great trainingfor salespeople,
so we try to poachtheir salespeople.
(17:00):
There are all kinds of hacksthat employers have developed,
a sort of institutionalknowledge about what
makes individualseffective and what
makes them potentiallystrong contributors
to their organizations.
One of the things thatwe've done in our research
is actually examine themovement that workers have
made from one job to the other.
(17:22):
We see that everyoneactive in the labor market
makes transitionsbased on their skills.
The difference between STARsand bachelor's degree holders
is that when we lookat this calculation
that we call skills distance,between the job they're in
and the job they moveto, that skills distance
(17:43):
is much shorter for STARs.
And what that meansis, frankly, employers
take bets on a workerwith a bachelor's degree
than they are on aworker within a STAR.
So we have developed atool, and it's free to use.
It's called StellarSight and can
be reached at stellarsight.org.
(18:05):
And one of the things that thistool enables employers to do
is to search forthe job that they're
looking for-- let's sayit's software engineer--
and look at the jobs thatpeople have transitioned out
of into that target job.
So let me explain what I mean.
So if I'm looking fora software engineer,
(18:26):
and it's a prettyhard-to-fill role--
there are more openingsfor software engineers
than we have workers.
Now, I can try and competeand poach from other employers
existing software engineers,and we see employers
certainly doing that quitea bit, same as it ever was.
But what might itlook like if we
(18:46):
were to take a lookat the labor market
data that's available to usand identify the source job?
What's the job that the softwareengineer had before they
became a software engineer?
Maybe they were a web developer.
Maybe they were adatabase administrator.
And by looking atthose existing--
(19:06):
like these are real transitionsthat real workers have made
in the American labor market--
might we think more expansivelyabout what qualification means?
And maybe we couldrecruit someone
who is in that source job,and perhaps that gets us
quite a bit of the way there.
Maybe getting themthe rest of the way
(19:28):
there is really aboutstrong onboarding, coaching,
and mentoring.
Maybe there's some amount ofupskilling that might be needed.
But there are creative waysthat are, in fact, data informed
that employers can taketoday to think a bit more
creatively about theroles that they have open
(19:49):
and how to fillthem, particularly
when those rolesare harder to fill,
when there's ahigher volume role.
Getting employers to think intheir own non-traditional ways
and open up the apertureof how they think
about sourcing andtalent acquisition,
including what transitionswe have seen in the past,
(20:10):
is all aboutaddressing what I think
is a core concern for manyemployers, which is hiring
is risky.
Yes, hiring is risky, butthat's not unique to STARs.
All hiring is risky.
And so when we usedata, part of it
is in service of helpingemployers understand where they
might be able to de-riskall of their hiring,
(20:32):
and not just limit thatperception to STARs
in the workforce.
JILL FINLAYSON (20:37):
So helping these employers look
at expanding their outreachwhere they're targeting,
changing the proxies to lookfor more things that are skills
adjacent, and beingable to provide
the supports thatemployees would
need to transition from one roleup the ladder to the next role.
AUDREY MICKAHAIL: That's exactly right. (20:58):
undefined
And I would add tothat that the cost
of doing nothing,for many employers,
is higher than thecost of, perhaps,
upskilling that individualor providing coaching
and mentoring.
And I want to be clear here.
I don't want toconflate the idea
(21:18):
of upskillingsomeone and looking
at source jobs as a notionthat only benefits STARs--
just to be clear about that.
But the idea is addressingthe very real and meaningful
concerns that employershave as they're just
trying to find qualified workersto join their organizations.
(21:39):
Part of the argumentthat we have
is that the solutionsthat, by the way,
create opportunityand access for STARs,
are actually the rightmechanisms for all workers.
And getting over thathump a little bit
is where we often have theconversations with employers,
often starting with verysenior individuals who
(22:02):
want to see theirworkforces transformed.
And we can get there.
We can convince a CEOor a CHRO that expanding
the aperture, that removingdegree requirements where
they're used indiscriminatelymakes great sense.
Often, what happensnext is when we
start to talk about or with theHR professionals, the hiring
(22:23):
managers, they're justresponsible for getting
their day jobs done.
And particularly-- andhere's another moment
of empathy for thehiring manager.
Often these are individualswho are maybe hiring
a couple of times a year.
They may not behiring extensively.
So part of the challenge hereis bringing that conversation
and getting folks to thinkcreatively when, by the way,
(22:46):
they're trying tobackfill for someone,
or they just had anew position open.
And what they're strugglingwith is making sure
that they can deliver on theirobjectives, their metrics.
And so asking someoneto change their mindsets
and their processes in a worldwhere this is actually not
even their full-time job,that's a real challenge,
(23:07):
and it's one that we havea lot of empathy for.
So we do our best tocast the opportunity
in terms of what an old clientof mine used to call WIIFM--
what's in it for me.
There's a cost ofdoing nothing here.
There's a cost of not changing.
And that is why, comingback to where we started,
being clear about the factthat when you put a degree
requirement on a jobthat may not need it,
(23:30):
particularly if it's a genericbachelor's degree requirement,
you are not only eliminatingfrom consideration off the top,
you are disqualifyinghalf the workforce.
But you're also disqualifying--and it must be said--
the majority of Blackworkers, of Hispanic workers,
of veterans, of rural workers.
And so this is nota political issue.
(23:51):
This is not specific toone group or population.
This is a universal issue ofmaking our labor market more
effective for all workers.
JILL FINLAYSON: What do you think (24:02):
undefined
is the primary thingholding back STARs,
and how do we addresssome of those barriers
you just mentioned?
AUDREY MICKAHAIL (24:10):
Well, I think the lowest hanging
fruit is that misperceptionthat that's all
wrapped up in the collegeexperience and the bachelor's
degree.
I've heard folks saythings like individuals
who have attained abachelor's degree have
shown that they have grit.
I guess I would sayto that, is that
(24:31):
the only way an individualcan demonstrate grit?
I would argue it's not.
But again, expandingcollege access
is and has been veryimportant in this country,
and our post-secondaryinstitutions
are huge differentiatorsfor our economy.
They're a huge source of value.
I don't want to undermine orsuggest anything different.
(24:53):
What I would say,though, is understanding
that calculus looks differentfor different individuals.
There's an article in TheWall Street Journal this week
about the ROI of abachelor's degree.
That was fascinating,and I think
it's a question worth asking.
The simplest thingthat we can do,
and why I'm so excited tobe here with you today,
(25:13):
Jill, is to simplyconfront the perceptions
and, arguably, misperceptionsthat folks have around
what it means to go to college,the importance of college
as the primary mechanism orpathway into the workforce,
and what it means forindividuals who don't have that,
(25:33):
what it says about them.
I think we makecertain assumptions
about folks who have notattained a college degree that
are inaccurate.
JILL FINLAYSON (25:41):
My father himself came from Britain
and went to PoliceAcademy, and so never did
get his bachelor's movedto the United States,
and always had that inthe back of his mind
that he didn't have thiscredential, even though he
advanced to being a seniorVP at a large company.
So what do people internalizewith this dialogue that
you're describingaround the bachelor's?
(26:02):
I've heard stories from STARs
that they have been in jobs,they have excelled in jobs.
They've been thenput up for promotion
in for work that they haveessentially already been doing,
and they've been told,sorry, you are not
eligible for promotion,because that next job requires
a bachelor's degree.
(26:22):
And we're talking aboutindividuals who, in many cases,
have alreadydemonstrated the skill.
We wrote a case studywith the State of Maryland
under then GovernorHogan, who had a program
called No Degree, No Problem.
And Maryland ismeaningful in the state
of the movement towardsSTARs hiring and tearing
the paper ceiling, in thatMaryland was the first state
(26:45):
to stand up and say, we'regoing to tear the paper ceiling.
We're going to hire STARs.
There was an urgency,because the state
was seeing longer times tohire at that point, which
was about two years ago.
So there was a WIIFM.
There was a need to address.
There was a motivated governorwho saw this as a legacy issue
for his administration.
(27:07):
But there were alsovery human stories
that were emergingthat brought poignancy
to the opportunity forthe State of Maryland.
So, for example,one of the leaders
we interviewed for thecase study had said,
I joined the State ofMaryland with an MBA,
and I was given opportunitiesby virtue of having my degrees
(27:29):
that my colleaguesaround me did not have
because they lacked the degree.
Now, arguably, theyhad longer tenure.
They knew the work better.
The difference was I got anopportunity to get promoted,
to experience mobility inways that my colleagues didn't
based on that one difference.
(27:50):
And that just seemedpatently unfair.
On the positiveside, at the time,
the chief informationsecurity officer of the state
was himself a STAR andwas respected and beloved.
And folks saw him as an exampleof what we would call a shining
STAR, someone who is alreadyin a high wage role, someone
who is a proof pointfor what STARs can do.
(28:11):
And they got it.
They got it.
There was what they calledan inescapable logic
to removing degree requirementswhere they weren't needed.
I've even experienced this firsthand.
I was at an edtechcompany, and I
was doing a sort ofentry-level marketing role.
And they said I would not beadvanced to a full marketing
manager because I didn'thave a master's degree.
(28:34):
So this manifests itselfin a number of ways,
and now we're seeingit even manifesting
in the artificialintelligence that's used
to screen these applications.
So what are youseeing in terms of AI
and now automaticallyeliminating
people who don't havea bachelor's degree?
AUDREY MICKAHAIL (28:55):
It's such an important issue.
We hear manifestations ofthis from many of the employer
organizations we work with.
One of my colleagues told me astory about a talent acquisition
leader in an organizationwho actually didn't even
realize that the default fortheir applicant tracking system
(29:15):
was to require a degree.
So much of what we are tryingto do in these early stages,
we're seeing need that isdriving ingenuity and change.
But too often, what we'rebattling are, frankly,
fairly simple things.
And so if I would advise ifthere are employers listening,
(29:35):
don't take for granted.
Don't go to the defaults.
And I mean defaults, both fromthe perspective of perception,
from the way we'vealways done things,
and certainly also froma systems perspective.
So we're really excitedabout the possibility
of what generative AI can do.
(29:55):
At the same time, wedefinitely, as an organization,
are very concerned aboutrecreating the world as it was
rather than building theworld as it should be.
And that's the riskthat we run if we're
learning from historicaldata and, frankly, a highly
(30:16):
unequal set of systems.
That's certainly the risk.
I do think there is anincredible opportunity
for talent acquisition leaders,for employer organizations
to start to ask questionsabout how AI is being used
and to ensure that thoseapproaches, those default
(30:38):
settings, matchtheir intentions.
And my hope certainly, and thehope of Opportunity at Work
more broadly, is that we hireand vet talent based on skill
and have thatintention reflected
in our systems and ourprocesses and in our approaches.
JILL FINLAYSON (30:56):
This is more than a hiring problem, though.
This is also a retention problemand an upskilling problem.
What does it look liketo reinvest in STARs
and, as you said,workers on the whole?
AUDREY MICKAHAIL (31:07):
I love that question so much,
because we actually arehearing from employers
that where their areasof interest-- and this
is true everywhere,but in particular
in the private sector.
One of the areasthat employers have
raised as an area ofconcern is how do we
think about internal mobility?
And if I broaden thatout a little bit,
(31:28):
I would say, how do we thinkabout the full talent management
life cycle, so not justsourcing and recruiting?
And I alluded to this alittle bit earlier, but how
do we onboard effectivelyso that we don't lose them
in six months because we didn'tgive them a clear view of what
it looks like to be successfulin the context of that employer
organization?
(31:48):
What does it look like todevelop talent over time,
to give themopportunities, to provide
the feedback, and coaching,and training needed,
not only in the currentrole, but for the next role?
And that's where westart to think about what
are the mobility opportunities?
Again, I have to come back tothe understanding of skills.
(32:12):
And that's a lot ofwork, and a piece of work
that not all organizationshave fully taken on.
To be clear, that's work thatis, again, needed, I think,
for the effective functioning ofany talent management approach.
But, of course, based onthe historical inequities
and opportunities we'veseen as obstacles for STARs,
(32:34):
STARs have an opportunityto benefit, perhaps
disproportionately,in a organization that
has a skills taxonomy, and abackbone, and way of working
that is anchored in skill.
The thing I would highlightas a potential example is some
of that work is alreadyhappening-- maybe
(32:54):
not in every part ofevery organization,
but savvy leaders havealready observed things
like skill adjacenciesor opportunities.
I'll give you a quickanecdote of a CIO
I interviewed in abank, who observed
that the individuals whowere in the operations
functions of thisfinancial services company
(33:16):
made excellent programmers.
And the reasonfor that is if you
think about whatfundamentally programming
is, it's about creatingautomation for process.
The individuals coming outof their operations team
had a deep understanding ofand orientation around process.
And this is a non-obvious, insome ways, notion or application
(33:37):
of the skills adjacency concept.
But this was a progressiveand thoughtful leader
with a real need andmade an observation
that she was actually able totransform into an agreement
to create a career pathwayfor folks from operations
into IT in that case,again, based on the fact
(33:58):
that now we're just tryingto do the right thing,
but actually there's a realbusiness need and a real skill
that folks from theoperations background
were able to infuseinto the IT department.
JILL FINLAYSON (34:10):
I'm glad to hear you return to the STARs,
the employee themselves.
We've talked a lot aboutthe employer goals and needs
and opportunities.
But for the person who doesn'thave a traditional bachelor's
degree, what are someof the gateway jobs,
and how can that help unlocknew pathways for them?
AUDREY MICKAHAIL: Gateway jobs are (34:28):
undefined
those jobs that are accessiblefrom lower-wage roles.
And, based on theobservations we've made,
the transitionwork I talked about
before, they tend to open upmultiple higher-wage pathways.
So they're really likespringboards or skeleton
keys that unlock multiplepathways for workers.
(34:50):
And as such, they'rereally critical jobs.
They are things like customerservice rep, or computer support
specialist.
There's a whole list of them.
And again, this isresearch that we've
done and is freely available.
Those are just a coupleof examples of jobs that,
again, accessible fromlower wage positions,
(35:10):
and also are wonderfulskill-building opportunities
that then open up additionalpathways into higher-wage work.
So that's the research behindit and a couple of examples.
I guess if I were advisingboth employers and STARs,
I would encouragefolks to think about,
for the employer perspective,what are the gateway
(35:32):
jobs in your organization?
We can certainlypoint to what we've
seen in the labormarket writ large,
but savvy employers haveunderstood that they probably
have a job that looks like that,that is a way for them to bring
workers into theirorganizations,
give them a set ofconcrete work skills,
(35:53):
get them acclimatedto their organization
and what success lookslike in their context,
and then provide thoseopportunities to their workers
to then start to thinkabout other pathways.
I'd love to give acouple of examples.
And in so doing, myhope is that workers
will see in their ownexperiences and the jobs
(36:14):
that they've sought out whatopportunities get opened up
to them from those particularexamples or those steps
in their career paths.
We wrote a casestudy with Microsoft.
There was a tremendous leader.
His name is Todd Miner.
He ran what werecalled, at one point,
the Academies within Microsoft.
(36:34):
The use case or the opportunitythat had arisen at Microsoft
is at the beginningof the pandemic, all
of the retail locations thatMicrosoft operated were shutting
down because of the pandemic.
And that created anopportunity, actually,
for the company to thinkdifferently about workers who
(36:54):
were in those retail positions.
And part of that--and again, I want
to come back to thistheme of creative leaders
making observations about andtaking care of their workers.
In this case, what hadbeen observed was that
in the Microsoftretail environments,
the retail salespeople were doing
very high volumes of B2B sales,business to business sales.
(37:18):
So not just consumers comingin and buying the device,
but there were actuallypretty large dollar amounts.
It was a significantamount of business
happening in theretail environment
that we're actually B2B.
What that told Todd was theseare individuals who are skilled.
They're closing prettylarge deals, larger
than we might have expected.
(37:39):
And that a-ha for himwas that individuals
in the retail environmentcould, with their skills,
transition into what Microsoftcalled digital sales.
Digital sales happens to be oneof those roles for Microsoft.
It is a gateway job.
It's a role that people come in,take on, they do for 18 months,
(38:00):
and often find pathwaysinto other parts
of the organization-- atremendous skill building
opportunity, accessible froma lower-wage role, which
the retail sales role was,and a place where you can kind
of learn the ropes,develop skill, figure out
what might be an exciting nextstep in the career pathway.
(38:20):
That program wassuccessful enough
that they ended up expandingit globally and expanding it
to other roles.
There's a lot moreto say about that,
but the principlehere that I think
is so illuminating and excitingfor someone like me who
wants to see STARsachieve mobility
is this was based on anobservation that Todd made.
(38:42):
We actually also havereams of labor market data
to say that yeah, retail salesto sales rep is one of the most,
if not the mostcommon transition that
happens in the labor market.
And so this is a wellunderstood pathway.
How might we expand it foreven more STARs who are
interested in careers in sales?
JILL FINLAYSON (39:04):
For people in these roles,
I think that's a great example.
How can you as a personadvocate for yourself?
And if you are a communitycollege student, or a veteran,
or somebody who'sworking in retail,
or somebody who's workingin custodial and building
maintenance, how do youarticulate your skills better?
Or where can you go tolearn how to articulate
(39:24):
those transferable skills?
AUDREY MICKAHAIL (39:27):
I think one of the things that is helpful
is plenty of tools outthere, and there's actually
really exciting opportunities.
There's the US ChamberFoundation, IBM.
There are a fewdifferent organizations
that are thinking reallyhard about this opportunity
of helping workers andlearners take their experiences
(39:49):
and translate theminto a skills-based CV
or resume in orderto support folks
in developing that language.
And I think it is areally big opportunity.
So the good newsis there are lots
of examples oforganizations that
are working on thisopportunity for workers
to help them articulatetheir skills.
(40:10):
So there's technology,there are tools
coming in the absence of that.
One of the thingsthat we do, just
as a part of our practice asan organization, is really sit,
and think, and observe workers,and think about the skills
that they're deploying.
When we try tounderstand what is
this job in a standardizedway, what is it comprised
(40:33):
of from a skillperspective, there
are tools to help you do that.
However, I think there's alsojust the simple reflection
exercise of what are the thingsI now know how to do as a worker
that I didn't knowhow to do previously?
What did I do today that was inthe realm of problem solving?
(40:54):
Or how did I spend my time?
I think there's a lot we can doas individuals to articulate,
to surface, to recognize theskills that we deploy day
to day, that we simply haven'tdeveloped the muscle to do.
So yes, go look for the tools.
(41:14):
The tools are out there.
But also, you as an individualin the workforce showing up
every day, have the bestinsight into the skills
that you are deploying.
And when I thinkfor myself, or I
talk to my own children whohave summer jobs and things
like that, I do encouragethem to get really clear
about the skills thatthey're learning,
(41:37):
the skills thatthey're bringing,
and to list those as they thinkabout updating their resumes
or the applications thatthey might put in for jobs,
to denominate their value as aworker in terms of those skills
that they have builtand the ones that they
are seeking to build.
I don't know if that'sa super helpful answer,
but we can get prettyfar down the road just
(41:59):
in your own reflection of whatyou're doing day to day, how
that shifts over time, theproblems you're able to solve.
JILL FINLAYSON (42:05):
That's a great jumping off
point for the employee.
We've talked a lot aboutthings that the employer should
do, everything from howdo you define a better
proxy for the bachelor'sto how do you really
make a skills-basedjob description
and setting some standards.
But if you were to give twoactionable first steps, what
would be your advicefor the employer?
AUDREY MICKAHAIL (42:27):
The first thing I would say
is go to where your need is.
Every organizationis, to some extent,
in a constant reshaping oftheir workforces over time.
And doing that big old strategicworkforce planning exercise
may be overwhelming.
But you can startwith one job family.
(42:50):
You might think about theroles that are hardest
to fill in your organization.
You might also thinkabout new-to-world roles
in your organization,because the reality
is there are all of thesenew jobs that are emerging.
And that's a greatplace to question.
Do we really need a bachelor'sdegree for this particular job
(43:13):
when, frankly,there are no degrees
out there in that disciplineor there are few of them,
and it's a new enoughdiscipline that, frankly,
the post-secondary systemmay not have yet caught up?
So what would be the purpose inrequiring a generic bachelor's
degree in something thatno one has actually studied
or very few peoplehave actually studied?
(43:34):
So it's reallystarting from a place
of where does needmeet opportunity?
How do we start in a way thatis practical and achievable?
How do we come up witha plan of assembling
what our friends and colleaguesat the State of Maryland
called a coalitionof the willing?
Those two things-- start withyour business need and start
(43:54):
with receptivebusiness partners--
are probably the places I wouldencourage employers to just
get started.
JILL FINLAYSON: Is there anything (44:01):
undefined
we haven't touchedupon regarding
the tearing of the paperceiling and the future of work?
Any final words to share.
AUDREY MICKAHAIL: The thought I'd (44:10):
undefined
love to leave folkswith is we see
exemplary employersand incredible workers
coming together under thisbanner of tearing the paper
ceiling.
It's early days.
We feel like we'rejust getting started.
But the momentum, theenergy, the inescapable logic
(44:32):
of doing this worktogether is very clear.
The next steps are theones that we are going to--
I think we need to come togetheron and help problem solve
together, because we're in thisemerging space where no one
organization hasfigured it all out.
So tearing thepaper ceiling for us
(44:53):
is not just about creatingopportunity for STARs.
It is also aboutemployer communities.
How do we cometogether and share
what's working, what's hard?
How do we anticipate theobstacles and problem solve them
together, given the fact thatno one organization, no one
leader has it all figured out?
(45:15):
So how do we come togetherand figure it out together?
And how do we sustainenergy and momentum, even
when, inevitably, there aresetbacks and challenges,
and things don't go perhapsaccording to the timeline
that we expected?
So I think we're in anincredible moment for the STARs
movement, for theskills first movement.
(45:37):
We are bringing data tolight across the field.
This is not just anopportunity at work thing,
but so many partnersare banding together
to understand how we make anAmerican labor market that
is effective and powerful.
And it's working,not just for STARs,
but it's working for everyone.
It's working foremployers as well.
JILL FINLAYSON (45:59):
I think that is exactly the point, that this
is an incredible moment, notonly to meet the needs of equity
and improve upward mobilityand access to fulfilling jobs
and growth, but it'salso an opportunity
to fulfill the employer need forskilled employees and retaining
top talent.
And so it's really exciting tosee you dive into the research
(46:19):
here.
Thank you so muchfor joining us.
AUDREY MICKAHAIL: Thank you, Jill. (46:21):
undefined
Appreciate the time.
JILL FINLAYSON (46:23):
And with that, I hope
you've enjoyed this latestin a long series of podcasts
that we'll be sendingyour way every month.
Please share withfriends and colleagues
who may be interested in takingthis Future of Work journey
with us.
And make sure to check outextension.berkeley.edu to find
a variety of coursesand certificates
to help you thrive in thisnew working landscape.
And to see what's comingup at EDGE in Tech,
(46:45):
go ahead and visitedge.Berkeley.edu.
Thanks so much forlistening, and we'll
be back next month with anotherlook at the future of work.
The Future of Work podcastis hosted by Jill Finlayson,
produced by Sarah Benzuly,and edited by Matt Dipietro
and Natalie Newman.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com