January 27, 2025 • 58 mins
In this episode, we’re diving into a topic that’s reshaping modern workplaces and unlocking incredible potential—neurodiversity. From creating inclusive environments to tapping into the unique strengths that neurodivergent individuals bring to the table, we'll explore how organizations can evolve beyond traditional approaches and thrive in a world that celebrates and leverages difference.
To talk about this important topic, we’re delighted to welcome Khushboo Chabria, a neurodiversity specialist and a transformational leader.
Learn more about UC Berkeley Extension @https://bit.ly/3PP8Xvz
Read this episode's transcript @https://bit.ly/4irhzoA
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(00:03):
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (00:05):
This is about how can we create better work
environments, where peoplecan bring their best selves
to the workplace, wherepeople can feel understood
for their differences andaccepted for who they are,
so that all of us can havebetter outcomes in the work
that we produce and in howwell we do as an organization.
Organizations need to recognizethat including neurodiversity
(00:28):
in the workplace is notso much of like, oh,
we need to prepare for theneurodivergent people that
are entering the workforce.
It's about recognizing thatneurodivergent people are
already there.
JILL FINLAYSON (00:41):
Welcome to the Future of Work podcast
with Berkeley Extensionand EDGE in Tech
at the University of California,focused on expanding diversity
and gender equity in tech.
EDGE in Tech is part of theInnovation Hub at Citrus,
the Center for IT Researchin the Interest of Society
and the Banatao Institute.
UC Berkeley Extension isthe continuing education arm
for the University ofCalifornia at Berkeley.
(01:03):
In this episode, we'rediving into a topic that's
reshaping modernworkplaces and unlocking
incredible potential--neurodiversity.
From creatinginclusive environments
to tapping into theunique strengths
of the neurodivergentindividuals bring to the table,
we'll explore howorganizations can
evolve beyondtraditional approaches
and thrive in a world thatcelebrates and leverages
(01:25):
difference.
To talk about thisimportant topic,
we're delighted towelcome Khushboo Chabria.
Khushboo is aneurodiversity specialist
and a transformational leader.
She is on a missionto advocate for access
to high-quality servicesto inspire and improve
the intentional inclusion ofneuro-distinct individuals
in society.
Khushboo is a programmanager, career coach,
(01:47):
and speaker with theNeurodiversity Pathways
program of the Goodwillof Silicon Valley.
She also sits on the boardof Peaces of Me Foundation.
Welcome, Khushboo.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (01:56):
Thank you so much for having me, Jill.
I'm super excited to talkabout this topic with you.
JILL FINLAYSON (02:01):
Likewise.
And I always feel like normalis really part of a spectrum.
So can you start out by talkingabout what neurodiversity is
and why is it important inthe context of the workplace?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (02:14):
Absolutely.
I mean, neurodiversityis simply variation
in brain function and behavior.
We're all part ofneurodiversity.
We all have differentways that our brains work.
I mean, if we lookacross any room,
we see people with differenthair colors, skin color, eye
color, differentheights, weight.
(02:35):
And we don't assume thatthat difference is abnormal.
We accept all those differencesas absolutely normal.
And therefore, I think that whenwe think about neurodiversity,
it's really ridiculous toassume that our brains are
going to be exactly thesame from one another.
And we know that's not true.
(02:57):
The way we process information,the way we communicate,
the way we make senseof things, I mean,
that's very differentperson to person.
And that's allneurodiversity is.
But one mainprinciple that we call
a principle ofneuro-inclusion is
that neurodiversity is normal.
Neurodiversity has alwaysexisted throughout history,
(03:20):
throughout time.
And neurodiversity isalways going to exist.
And that's the part of thediversity of humanity, I think.
JILL FINLAYSON (03:29):
Since it is part of normal and kind of expanding,
if you will, the definitionof normal to be reflective
of these differentapproaches and personalities.
So if it's normal,why are we running
into problems of bias ordiscrimination in the workplace?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (03:45):
It's a really complicated question to ask.
There's multiple factors there.
I think that there's thiswhole idea of an office culture
and hiring peoplebased on cultural fit.
And if we really look at whatthat is, it's around sameness.
It's around being in rooms whereeveryone has basically always
(04:09):
been there and feeling likethat's what it should be.
When really, weneed more diversity,
we need more diverseperspectives in the workplace.
Because if we're going to solvethe kinds of complex problems
we're facing todayin society, we're
going to need people withdifferent perspectives
at the table.
I believe that oneof the main reasons
(04:30):
we are where weare as a species,
and because of how muchinnovation we've had,
is due to the fact thatthere's neurodiversity,
that there are neurodivergentminds and people who
think outside the box and havenovel ways to solve problems,
because that's really needed.
I think that's somethingthat will move us forward
(04:52):
as a society.
JILL FINLAYSON (04:54):
Say a little bit more
about how neurodivergentfolks maybe think differently
or process informationdifferently.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (05:00):
Yeah.
I mean, every neurodivergentperson is very unique.
So I want to actuallyput that as a disclaimer.
Because when you meet oneneurodivergent person,
you've only met that one person.
And their strengthsand differences
are absolutely unique to them.
This is why servicesand supports
need to be more individualized.
(05:22):
And we can't really putlike a standardization
in how neurodivergentpeople should be supported.
Briefly speaking, there'sa lot of differences
in how neurodivergentpeople communicate.
They might have differencesin how they socially
interact with people, howthey make meaning of things,
so their cognitive abilitiesmight be a little bit different.
(05:43):
Also, there's this thingabout sensory sensitivities.
A lot of neurodivergent people,autistic people mostly, but also
people with ADHD and dyslexiasense the world differently.
And that can affect anyof their five senses,
whether that's touch,that's hearing,
that's sight, that'ssmell, all of that.
(06:03):
And so those differencesneed to be regulated
in a neurodivergent person.
And therefore, they might engagein stimming, which is engaging
in repetitive behavior.
And we used to thinkthat was only common
for neurodivergent people.
But it turns out all of us stim.
So if you are in a meetingand you check your phone
(06:24):
or you find yourself doodlingor playing with your hair,
that's you stimming.
But neurodivergentpeople might just
do that a lot more than theneurotypical people, who maybe
don't need to regulate theirbody that much because they
don't have anoverload of sensations
from the world around them.
JILL FINLAYSON (06:42):
Yeah.
So put me in the mind of aperson who is neurodivergent.
And to your point, thereare different aspects
of this ADHD, autism, dyslexia,a lot of different categories.
But how might they experiencea group meeting differently
than a neurotypical person?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA: There might be a lot (07:01):
undefined
of different things going on.
So one thing is, aneurodivergent person
might struggle with small talk.
So if that meeting kindof begins with small talk,
that might be something thatmaybe the neurodivergent person
might not be able to engagein, because that actually
does not feel natural toneurodivergent people.
(07:23):
Neurodivergent people arevery straight to the point,
and they kind of want to getto work, get to the task.
And so having small talk aroundcertain topics like the weather
or what we did over theweekend or the holidays
might be uncomfortable forthe neurodivergent person,
or they might not respond toit in the way that you expect.
(07:44):
But that doesn'tmean they're not
qualified for their positions.
So we kind of need todifferentiate those things.
Maybe you have a neurodivergentperson on your team
who doesn't reallyunderstand sarcasm.
And if someone inthe meeting is making
jokes or kind of saying thingsthat aren't really direct,
that might not be clear tothe neurodivergent person.
(08:06):
Neurodivergent peoplereally need clear and direct
instructions on what itis that they need to do.
And they need to haveclear directives of who's
responsible forwhat to really have
the context underwhich they're working.
JILL FINLAYSON (08:21):
It feels like clear direction is something
that everyonewould benefit from.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (08:26):
Absolutely.
And that's one ofthe things, Jill.
When we do these trainingswith organizations
on really understanding howto support neurodiversity
in the workplace, very often,someone will raise their hand
and say, but this isn't specificto neurodivergent people.
And we'll say, exactly.
Because the kinds of things thatwe're talking about actually
(08:49):
improve psychologicalsafety for everyone.
Another example forthe meeting, Jill,
is a lot ofneurodivergent people
don't know when tointerject in a conversation.
This is something thatI struggle with as well
in my own group settings.
And I happen to have amanager who accommodates me
by actually asking me toshare my perspectives when
(09:10):
I've been quiet for some time.
A great analogy for this.
My colleague John says that it'skind of like those crisscross
when you're doing the jumpropes with two jump ropes,
and you kind of have to jump inand know when you can jump in.
It's kind of like that forsomeone who's neurodivergent.
They might not knowwhen to interject.
(09:31):
They might feeljudged or feel scared
that they're going to bejudged for what they're saying.
Or maybe by the time that theyactually get a chance to speak,
the topic of themeeting has changed.
These are the kinds ofthings we're talking
about communication wise.
But then again, we also seemanagers in the workplace now
who might put on aperformance evaluation
(09:51):
that someone's not participatingin meetings enough.
So you can see howsomething so simple as this
can end up becominga performance
issue for an employee, orsomething that a manager might
ding them for, when really,it's just a difference in how
their brain works ora difference in how
they socially interact.
But one thing about interjectingin conversations, that's
(10:15):
not just something thatneurodivergent people
struggle with.
That's also something that womenstruggle with when they are
the only woman in the meeting.
It's something that someone whois an English second language
speaker is going tostruggle with as well.
It's also going to be somethingthat maybe an immigrant
or someone from adifferent culture
is going to struggle with.
(10:35):
And to the point I madeearlier about the sarcasm
or making cultural referencesor things like that
in conversation, if someone isnot from here, if someone has
a different culturalbackground or doesn't
have the same references,you can see that even
in a social atmospherein the workplace,
you're technically excludingpeople from that conversation.
JILL FINLAYSON (10:58):
Yeah.
So new leaders andpeople who are leading
have to be more aware ofwhat's going on in the room.
And as you said, appliesto introverts, extroverts,
any sort of reasonswhy people might not
be as fluent or as comfortablein a meeting setting like that.
What do peoplemisconstrue, or what
(11:19):
are some of the misconceptions?
So if they seethese behaviors, you
mentioned that aboss might think,
oh, they're justnot very engaged.
What are some of thethings that people
misinterpret orsome misconceptions
about neurodivergent?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (11:32):
I mean, there are so many, Jill.
I don't know where to start.
But as someone withADHD, for example, I
can tell you peoplewill assume I'm lazy,
or that I'm notinterested in the work,
or that I'm not checking myemails because I didn't know
that my manager wantedme to respond and say,
yes, I got this.
(11:52):
These are the kindsof simple things
that may just be a differencein us understanding
how emails should be received.
But it could beperceived as me really
not caring about theemails being sent to me,
or caring about what mymanager wants me to do,
or maybe not even doing whatI'm being asked to do, right?
Because if I'm notresponding to emails,
(12:14):
someone might assume thatI'm not even checking.
We're very good atjumping to assumptions.
And this is one ofthe other things,
one of the main principlesof neuroinclusion,
which we also talkabout in our book,
is the concept ofcompassionate curiosity.
And that is that whensomething doesn't make sense
or if something's odd toyou or different to you,
(12:38):
instead of jumpingto the conclusion
that, wow, thisperson is so rude,
they didn't laughat my joke, maybe I
can have compassion forthe other person's history,
their life experience,because I don't
know what it's been liketo be in their shoes,
to live their life, or knowwhat they know or don't know,
(12:58):
and to get curious, and to ask.
One time I asked oneof my coaching clients,
every now and then whenI'm talking to you,
I feel like you're justsaying yes, yes, yes, but I
don't know if I'mgetting through to you.
Can you explain tome what's going on?
And he literallylooked at me and said,
you're sharing too muchinformation and I just cannot
(13:23):
keep up.
[LAUGHS]
And I had to say,well, an accommodation
I would love to ask for isthat if we get to that point,
just stop me and tell methat you want to take a break
or let's continue thisconversation next week.
And that's totally OK with me.
Now, again, if youdid this as a manager
(13:45):
to someone who's ina meeting with you,
you're basically allowingthem to really bring
their best self tothe workplace and ask
for what they need so thattheir success can be enabled
and so that theirstrengths can shine.
I know that if myclient has the capacity
to hear me and understandwhat I'm saying
(14:06):
and take the feedbackthat I'm giving them,
they're going to bebetter off for it.
And if they can let me knowwhen that is sort of hindered,
we can have a betterworking relationship
together because of thatcompassionate curiosity.
And a lot of times,managers don't ask.
That's what it is.
I have been given aperformance evaluation feedback
(14:30):
about not meeting deadlines.
And if my manager hadreally sat down and asked
me what's going on, Iwould have explained
all the other outsidefactors that are affecting
me meeting that deadline.
And I can be proactive about it.
But if I still getdinged for something,
where is it that we're reallycreating that understanding
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and empathy for thepeople that we work with?
If we're managingthem out, where
is the mentoring happening?
Or thinking about, wow, maybethere's something in our system
that we need to look at so thatwe can have better workflows,
we can have bettermeeting of deadlines.
Maybe we can lookat what is really
something that is an outsidefactor that can be addressed,
(15:14):
that isn't the responsibilityof this employee,
but is affectingtheir performance
because we're lookingat it in this rigid way.
JILL FINLAYSON (15:21):
Yeah.
Well, you've hintedat some ways that we
can improve themanagement of people
who bring different skills.
And it would be helpful totalk about accommodations.
Before we dive into whatkind of accommodations
companies andsupervisors can provide,
I think it wouldbe worth asking,
(15:43):
how do people whoare neurodivergent
feel about askingfor accommodations?
Because maybe they don'twant people to know
or they're justtrying to fit in.
So maybe before we startasking for accommodations,
what's the perspective ofsomebody who's in these shoes?
How do they feelabout asking for help?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA: It's very complicated. (16:02):
undefined
I'll be honest, Jill,most of my clients
don't feel comfortabledisclosing in their applications
that they're neurodivergent.
They do feel a lot of bias,even in the interview process
when they have disclosedit in the past.
And I'm going to behonest, a lot of people
carry trauma fromhaving disclosed
(16:23):
and not gotten thesupport that they need.
Because the way that we thinkabout accommodations and the way
that our systemis now with IDEA,
we're literally askingcompanies to give us
what we need so we canwork in the best way that's
possible for us.
And that should be a given.
(16:43):
We actually prefer to callthem success enablers instead
of accommodations, becausereally, what you're doing is
you're enabling thatemployee, that person,
to bring their bestfriends to the workplace
and to do their best work,and to be able to focus,
and to be able to get what itis that they need to get done
(17:04):
because they're beingsupported in how
they work, how they think,how they process information.
We're in the 21st century, wherewe have to admit none of us
process informationthe same way.
If we've done all these stridesin making education more
inclusive, and makingmedicine more inclusive,
(17:25):
and thinking about allthese other areas of society
where we think about thatinclusion of differences
in brain and behavior function,how can we not accommodate that
readily in the workplace?
JILL FINLAYSON (17:39):
So it's sort of a two-pronged attack here.
We need to move so that peoplecan ask for the accommodations
that they need withoutfear and without bias.
And we, also for the individual,if they don't want to disclose,
we have to figureout how can they
ask for the successenablers that will allow
them to bring their A game?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (17:58):
Yeah.
I mean, one of the things thatI tell my clients all the time
is to directly tell theirmanager, I work best when blank.
I need this to focus.
I would really love to have aday where I don't have meetings.
These are very simplethings that all of us
can do to advocatefor ourselves.
(18:19):
One of the biggestbarriers in the workplace
is there's a lot of things thatwe do in the workplace that
are just things thateverybody knows,
but they're notwritten down anywhere.
They're not explicitlystated anywhere.
So if we think about supportingneurodivergent people the way
we think about supportingnew hires, it's very similar.
(18:40):
It's about letting that personknow, hey, in this office,
on Fridays, usually by4:00 PM, everyone's gone.
So you don't have tobe here till 5:00 PM.
Or, hey, if you need helpwith this or this or this,
this is the person to go to.
We do that automaticallywhen we get a new person
on our team, when we hire anew person in the organization.
(19:03):
But there arestill other things,
like during themeeting on this day,
the manager expects you togive you a report, knowing
that before the meetingwould be so great,
and to know that that'sa norm or an expectation.
But sometimes we havenorms and expectations
that we don'tdirectly state, but we
expect other people to follow.
And that's kind of where theexclusion starts happening,
(19:26):
because a neurodivergentperson understands things
very literally, so theykind of need to be told.
JILL FINLAYSON (19:33):
So what are some of the things
that you have taught yourclients about getting what they
need, the successenablers, here's
what I need to be successful.
Here's what I need tobe able to accomplish
my work in a timely manner.
But what are someof the other things
that you've advised them to doin terms of ensuring that they
can have the spaceand the things
(19:54):
that they need to be successful?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (19:56):
The very first thing that I have my clients
do is to think specificallyabout what they need
and for what thing thatthey're struggling with.
So, for example,if I want to have
Grammarly on mycomputer or something,
that's a very simple one.
Let's talk about aneurodivergent one.
Let's say I do want to have aday where I don't have meetings.
(20:19):
Let's say I want Fridaysto be a no meeting day.
And I think one of thethings that organizations
do that's reallyunfortunate is that we
make asking foraccommodations this really
tedious and complicatedmulti-step process, which
in itself is so disempoweringfor a neurodivergent person
(20:42):
already.
Because an organization getsto say whether they will allow
or not allow thataccommodation to be offered
to the neurodivergent person.
And when you look atthat, already, there's
kind of like apower dynamic there.
Let's say that the persondoes absolutely need something
(21:02):
and they have orhave not disclosed.
If they haven'tdisclosed, I would
ask if that accommodationis something
that they can ask forwithout disclosing first.
Because you can easilyjust have a conversation
with your manager, ask themfor a one-on-one meeting,
and explained to them howhaving a day without meetings
(21:23):
is going to help themaccomplish their project work.
For example.
Very simple.
JILL FINLAYSON (21:28):
Right.
Tying it to the largercorporate goals.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (21:31):
And if you have an understanding manager
and you have someonewho's like, yeah,
that's totally understandable.
Of course.
Why don't we move this around,or take a look at this,
or you don't need tocome to this meeting.
There's a lot ofthings the manager can
do right there in that moment.
Now, if the managersays no, this
is not somethingthat's possible,
then the person can actuallygo to their HR office
(21:55):
and decide to disclose.
And that's very complicated.
A lot of organizationsstill do require the person
to provide a formal diagnosis inorder to get an accommodation.
And that'sunfortunately something
that not allneurodivergent people have,
because many of them havegrown up without ever getting
diagnosed and aregetting a late diagnosis,
(22:17):
or have done a self-diagnosis byreally researching into things
and figuring out, wow, I'vespent an entire lifetime not
knowing I have autism or ADHD.
We also have an increasingnumber of people
who are identifyingtheir diagnoses
after their childrenare getting diagnoses.
So there's all thesedifferent trends
(22:39):
with how diagnosticprocesses have changed.
Additionally, thefirst diagnoses
that were created forautism, those assessments
were created only by studyingwhite eight-year-old middle
class boys.
It didn't includewomen, little girls.
It didn't include people fromother cultures, other races,
(23:00):
other socioeconomic statuses.
Since that time, ourassessment processes
have increased andimproved a lot.
However, we stillhave a lot of gaps
in how we diagnose autistic,or ADHD, or dyslexic adults.
So the tools were all createdmeasuring, looking at,
(23:22):
and studying children.
But a lot of people arenow identifying as adults
that they struggledwith the same things
when they were children.
JILL FINLAYSON (23:30):
So in your view, official diagnosis
is not something that shouldbe a prerequisite for asking
for accommodation.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (23:37):
I'm not sure if it should be
or it shouldn't, but I will saythat there's a lot of barriers
to getting a diagnosis.
It's very expensive.
The waiting lists are very long.
The providers that do provideassessments are very few.
You're already creatinganother five-step process
for that person toget a no meeting day.
JILL FINLAYSON (23:57):
As we think about this,
you do hear stories aboutpeople finding out in adulthood
that they are dyslexic.
And oh, that explains why Istruggled in these situations.
What was your experienceand how did you find out
that you had a diagnosis?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (24:12):
So, it's really interesting
because, before Igot my diagnosis,
I was already working withneurodivergent individuals
as a clinician.
So I was working with childrenwith ADHD, autism, dyslexia,
Tourette's, a lotof different things,
hearing impaired,speech impaired.
I worked a lot withnon-speaking autistic people
(24:32):
as well, which is actuallya huge part of my experience
before I went into theneurodiversity space.
When I was in the field andinteracting with people,
socializing all day long,solving novel problems
on the spot, that'swhere my ADHD thrives.
(24:53):
I am at my best when I'mengaging with people,
when I'm face toface, when I'm having
a one-on-one conversation.
Group conversations area little tricky for me,
with that interjectingin conversations.
But working with a client,really focusing on something,
and because I'm motivatedby the work that I do,
I am really engagedin what I'm doing
(25:15):
and I'm reallymotivated to do it well.
And so when I was workingin the field as a clinician,
I was great.
I was on point.
I was meeting all myperformance measures,
everything that my KPIincluded was great.
But nobody tells youthis, but the further
you move up in yourcareer, the more you
(25:36):
get away from directlyworking with clients.
And now you're managingpeople, and you're
dealing with office politics,and you have deadlines,
and you're fighting withinsurance companies,
and you have spreadsheets andreports due every single week.
And it just becomesreally, really tedious.
And one of the main thingsthat I struggle with in regards
(25:57):
to my ADHD is myexecutive functioning.
So executive functioningis our ability
to organize tasks, manageour time, manage tasks.
It's cognitive regulation,emotional regulation,
behavior regulation.
And it's being able to do lotsof different kinds of things,
like knowing how longsomething should take,
(26:17):
knowing how toprioritize tasks even,
knowing how to ask forinformation preemptively
before you run into problems.
These are all executivefunctioning issues
that different people have.
One of the things that we do inour workforce, for some reason,
is we promote people basedon merit, having degrees.
(26:39):
But we were not actuallytaught management skills
and how to leadpeople and how to deal
with different personalitiesthat you deal with when
you're working with clients.
And I kind of had to learnall of that on the spot.
And so as a neurodivergentperson, as I moved up further
in my career, I just startedstruggling with everything.
(27:00):
And I was fallingbehind in my work.
And these things don'thappen in a vacuum.
It's like one thingleads to the other.
So I was fallingbehind in my work.
I was pulling allnighters to complete
the work that I had to do.
Now I'm sleep deprived at work.
Now I'm cranky at work.
It just turns into awhirlwind of chaos.
(27:23):
And it's just simplethings like that.
Or I am dealing with alot of office politics.
Or I'm having to givecorrective feedback to one
of my therapists, for example.
And now I'm stressedout about it all day
and I'm not able to focus on theother things I need to get done.
And as someonewith anxiety, that
affects me more thanit affects someone
(27:44):
who doesn't have anxiety.
JILL FINLAYSON (27:46):
So how did you know this wasn't just,
oh, I'm stressed at work?
How did you know there wassomething else going on?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (27:52):
I actually ended up at a clinic.
I wanted to go see a therapistbecause I thought I was just
burnt out and depressed.
And it just so happenedthat I had a therapist who
was very keen to notice that inevery single one of my stories,
the point that ledto all the issues
was an executivefunctioning issue.
(28:13):
And so she pulled that threadand she said, have you ever
wondered if you have ADHD?
And I had never eventhought about it.
When I was in college,I was diagnosed
with generalized anxietydisorder, which who knows what
that means, right?
It could be anything.
And then at some point,I was misdiagnosed
(28:35):
as having bipolar disorder.
Because bipolar disorder, theway it has the highs and lows,
ADHD can look like that as well.
Because people with ADHDhave points in their journey
where they're feeling a lotof depression because of the
struggles that they'refacing of having
ADHD in a neurotypical world.
(28:56):
You just constantly feel likeyou're getting nothing, right.
And that takes a hugetoll on your psyche.
So my therapist noticedthat all the stories
that I was sharing with her ledback to an executive functioning
issue.
And she had me do thetest on a computer
(29:17):
where I had to, I don'tremember exactly what it was,
but if you see this picture,then press this key.
If you see thispicture, press this key.
Kept messing it up.
She interviewed my mom.
She basically went through allthe notes of all the therapy
that we had done together.
And she created a reportsaying that I had ADHD.
JILL FINLAYSON (29:37):
And how did that diagnosis change
how you thought about things?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA: Honestly, at first I (29:41):
undefined
was relieved because Ifinally had an answer.
So much of my lifeI had been made
fun of for not having my thingstogether, being disorganized.
As a child, my teachersalways complained
that I was missing assignmentsor turning in things late.
There's a history toall of these things.
(30:03):
My mom reported in her interviewhow talkative I was as a child
and how I had no boundarieswith absolute strangers.
I would just go up to peopleand ask them for things
and just literally talkto anyone about anything.
And I wanted to bearound adults because I
had so many questions to ask,as a young girl with ADHD.
(30:26):
And I didn't feel closeto peers my own age
because they couldn'tanswer any of my questions.
So my favorite activity wouldbe to find an adult that
was open to answeringthe questions I had,
and literally just ask themabout all kinds of random things
to fulfill my curiositybefore Google existed.
JILL FINLAYSON (30:46):
So compassionate curiosity was already
a skill strength you brought.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (30:50):
A lot of neurodivergent people
have a lot of empathy.
They are very compassionate.
They're very committedto the work that they do.
If they align with themission of your organization,
of the project, of theteam, you will never
see anyone work harder.
A lot of them have very,very strong interest
in specific areas.
(31:10):
And they will knoweverything about that topic.
So if a neurodivergent personis interested in gaming,
they will know aboutthe history of the game.
They will know about thecharacter development
of the game.
They will tell you about howthe game has changed over time.
They will know everything aboutevery character in the game.
They will know everythingabout that topic
when they'repassionate about it.
(31:32):
A lot of neurodivergent peoplehave super focus as well.
That's somethingthat I believe is
an ADHD skill and ahuge strength of mine,
where when I am able to get intothat flow state of deep focus,
I'm able to get aweek's worth of work
done in just a few hours.
JILL FINLAYSON (31:51):
So recognizing that these type of personalities
can be expressly goodfor certain roles.
And you need that personwho's absolutely expert
and can go very deepon a particular topic.
This is a person who couldbe a great fit for that.
Yeah, I mean, a lot of people don't know this,
but people with ADHD areexcellent entrepreneurs.
(32:13):
They're great atnetworking as well.
If you put them in businessdevelopment and sales,
they can do extremely well.
It's funny you should mention that.
Some time ago, I interviewedthe founder of Kinko's.
And he said himselfthat he was ADHD,
but he said thatturned out to be
one of the best aspectsof his leadership,
(32:34):
was he got out of the building.
He let people do their jobs.
He wasn't micromanagingor over them
because he didn't wantto be in the store.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (32:40):
And that's why context matters.
Because for me to get ina state of super focus,
for example, I need to be inmy room and I work from home.
I have blackout curtains thatI use to make my room dark.
I put my headphones in.
I put concentration music on soI don't want to be interrupted.
And I just want to be in flowstate for five to six hours.
(33:04):
I get all my admin done.
I make a lot of progresson project work.
I might get a lot of reachingout to people, following up
on things.
I'm verydetail-oriented as well.
And we have to thinkabout how great
that is to have in the workplaceif we can just accommodate it.
JILL FINLAYSON (33:23):
So that brings us back to the accommodations.
So if we want to unleashthis talent and potential,
what are some ofthe systemic ways
that companies can change theenvironment so that it works
better for everyone?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (33:37):
There's some really simple things.
I think if we treat eachother with the principle
of compassionatecuriosity, for example,
that's a very simple wayto accommodate everyone.
If we are talking about wantingsomeone with high attention
to detail in theworkplace, we have
to recognize what that actuallylooks like in the workplace.
That's going to be theperson who points out
(33:59):
errors on the report.
That's going to besomeone who's going
to correct youbecause they want what
you're saying to be accurate.
So if you notice someone who'sdoing that in the workplace,
instead of assumingthat that's coming
from a negativeintention, recognize
that that person isbringing high attention
to detail and a focus onexcellence to the work.
(34:23):
That's something wewant in the workplace.
If you want someone to be ableto do that deep level of focus,
for example, andyou know that there
are people who need dedicatedtime to do that deep work,
recognize where we might bescheduling too many meetings
or having too manyinterruptions.
Are we expecting ouremployees to respond to emails
(34:44):
as soon as they get them?
And if we are, we haveto think about how that
impacts their ability to work.
So even thinking about oursimple processes and policies
that we have.
If you want creativeand innovative thinkers
in the workplace, such as peoplewho think outside the box,
and bring fresh perspectivesto the table, we have to ask,
(35:05):
are we open to those freshperspectives in this meeting?
Or are people gettingshut down as soon
as they suggest a new thing?
Are we even hearing people?
Are we giving people thespace to share ideas?
Or are we saying, no, this ishow we've always done things?
And these are someof the questions
that I thinkorganizations need to ask,
(35:27):
because I don't thinkany organization
sets out trying tocreate exclusion
for any personwith any identity.
We don't thinkabout it that way.
But if we recognizethat now that there's
all this diversityamong us and we
have people whocommunicate differently,
people who speak differentlanguages, people who
(35:47):
may be very literal in howthey understand information,
if we know thatalready as something
we all accept asnormal, why is it
that we can't justchange how we communicate
a little bit differentlyso that everyone
can be on the same page?
JILL FINLAYSON (36:04):
So it sounds like there's
an opportunity, obviously,for leadership development
and helping them tounderstand how clarity,
how people might communicatein different ways,
they might have different needs.
So being more accommodatingfor different styles
of doing the work.
Are there also actionablesteps for the HR department?
Are there thingsthat they should
(36:24):
be doing to reduce that red tapethat you were talking about?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (36:27):
Yeah.
I mean, I think in terms ofrecruitment and hiring, HR
departments, leadershipteams, management teams
can look at whether theirjob descriptions are honest.
Are we reallyexpecting people to do
the jobs of three differentemployees in one job
description?
Because mostneurodivergent people
(36:48):
who look at that aresaying they're already not
qualified for thatposition when they
look at it on the otherside of the screen.
JILL FINLAYSON (36:55):
So better job descriptions,
fewer requirements,because if you list it,
they're going to be like,I need to have that.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (37:02):
Correct.
I mean, if you have excellentwritten and verbal communication
on your job description,most neurodivergent people
are honest enough and havethat much integrity that they
will say that theircommunication skills are not
excellent.
It's a very simple thing,but if you actually
put those terms inlike a LinkedIn search,
(37:23):
you'll notice that themajority of job descriptions
use this canned language inhow we identify what skills are
actually necessary for a job.
We have to think about that.
The way we interviewpeople is another thing.
Having trick questions, havingvague, open-ended questions
in your interviews issomething that's very confusing
(37:43):
for neurodivergent people.
For example, tellme about yourself.
Something most conversationsstart with that question.
And many neurodivergent peopleare absolutely stumped by that
because it's so vague.
And everyone answers thatsuper differently, right?
Are you asking aboutmy work history?
(38:04):
Are you asking about myeducational background?
Are you asking to tell youlike an elevator pitch?
What exactly is, tell me aboutyourself, and what interviewers
are expecting from aquestion like that?
JILL FINLAYSON (38:18):
How would you change that question?
And if I'm on thereceiving end of that
question, how could I changethat question so I understand
it better?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA: The way I teach (38:26):
undefined
my students is to share acouple of things about--
so I ask them to share threestrands a personal strength,
a professional strength,and a strength that's
directly relevant to thejob that you're applying to.
So being able to say,Hi, I'm Khushboo.
And you can start with seeingyour educational background.
(38:46):
So you can say, I have adegree in this and this,
and I'm reallypassionate about this.
And these are threestrengths of mine.
And that's how I havemy students answer it.
But if you're an employer,instead of asking that, saying,
what made you applyto this position?
And how do you feelthat your previous work
experience can be appliedto a position like this one?
(39:08):
We can be more specificin how we ask questions.
And we can be moreclear in what it
is that we're expecting peopleto respond with in order for us
to feel that they'requalified for that position.
JILL FINLAYSON (39:21):
Rather than making people guess
what you're trying to get at.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (39:26):
And also, I don't know where in society we
went from asking peopleabout their ability to do
a job to just random questions.
JILL FINLAYSON (39:36):
Yeah, they definitely have been doing that.
Like, what do youdo outside of work?
And you're like, wait,I was in work mode.
What are you asking meabout outside of work?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (39:44):
Yeah.
And there's the surprisequestions, the trick questions,
the timed questions.
Now we're justmaking it an obstacle
course for a neurodivergentperson, right?
There's a lot of things in theentire recruitment and hiring
process that companiesneed to look at in terms
of how many barriers they'reactually creating for people who
(40:06):
may not understand the socialaspect of the interview,
or who may communicate justa little bit differently
than you expect.
But those things areactually basically making
it so that we're missing outon this amazing talent that's
out there, by creating theseweird, arbitrary rules that
(40:26):
shouldn't apply to how weidentify as someone could
do a job.
JILL FINLAYSON (40:31):
So say they make it through the obstacle course
and they have a job,what are some of the ways
that coworkers canhelp them thrive?
And thinking aboutthis, coworkers
may notice somebody isvery blunt or direct,
or they may notice thatsomebody is not participating
in the social activities.
So what could a coworker do?
(40:52):
And has there been anexperience that you've
had with a coworker thatreally helped you and made
you feel welcome?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (40:57):
Yeah.
I feel like I'm going tosound like a broken record
when I say this,Jill, but I have to.
It's aboutcompassionate curiosity.
If someone didn'tlaugh at a joke
or if someone's notparticipating in a meeting,
instead of assuming thatthat person didn't want
to participate or didn'thave anything to say,
I could just say, hey, I'venoticed in the meetings,
(41:20):
in a one-on-one conversationoutside of a meeting context,
by the way, I've noticed inthe meetings you haven't really
been sharing that much.
Is there a reason why?
Are you feelinguncomfortable to share?
Is there somethingelse going on?
Usually, if you openthat door, most people
will be really honest.
They might say, I don'tknow when to speak up,
(41:41):
or I feel like I'm kind ofjust interrupting people
because these other people inour meeting are always talking,
or by the time I do getthe chance to share,
the topic has changed.
It could also be, I didn'tunderstand the joke, right?
But when we clarify things andwe open up that conversation,
(42:03):
it's like this pressurevalve gets released.
JILL FINLAYSON (42:05):
Did you see that happen with you?
Or has one of yourclients shared a story
where it made themfeel a greater
sense of belonging because ofsomething their coworker did?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (42:15):
Absolutely.
Just being able to have acoworker who checks in with you
or confirms thateveryone's on the same page
can make a worldof a difference.
And we all need that, right?
It's not justneurodivergent people.
We all need that.
One of the things that I'veactually heard my colleagues
experience is that after theydid one of their presentations,
(42:38):
and we do these Neurodiversityin the Workplace awareness
presentations fororganizations, big
and small, all different kinds.
And very often, having thattraining in the workplace
signals to all the employeesthat that organization
is supportive ofneurodiversity just
because they took that step ofacknowledging neurodiversity.
(42:59):
Oftentimes, afterthose trainings,
people will come up to usand share, I feel so seen.
My team doesn't know this,but I actually have autism.
And I haven't sharedthat with them.
JILL FINLAYSON (43:12):
Yeah, especially since this isn't necessarily
a visible disability,you may not know.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA: You may not know. (43:18):
undefined
And maybe those colleaguesalso in that same training
noticed some of the thingswe talked about in regards
to strengths and differences,and maybe acknowledge
that one of mycolleagues on my team
processes informationdifferently than I do.
So maybe instead ofbeing really vague
or making sarcastic comments,I can be more direct
(43:40):
and not speak in metaphors.
JILL FINLAYSON (43:41):
Yeah.
I work with a lotof global audiences.
And there are so many phrasesI catch myself saying that I'm
like, till the cows came home.
Why did I say this?
This makes no sense.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA: I know, I know. (43:51):
undefined
And there's a lot ofthese things that we say.
I'm very exaggerativein how I speak, Jill.
And sometimes, Igot into a habit
of just saying I'mtired all the time
when people ask me how Iwas, just as a personality
trait or something.
And it's so cute becausemy autistic clients
and our coaching callwill hear me say I'm tired
(44:13):
and ask me if I want toreschedule our meeting.
Because they takeinformation that literally.
It's so sweet.
But if I actuallyshare with them
that I've had a really,really awful day,
even though I'm theircoach, they kind of
want to check in with me too.
These are the things that, whenwe create psychological safety,
(44:36):
we create better connection.
When we have betterconnection with our team,
we work better together.
One thing that we like to alwaystalk about in our presentations
that we do withorganizations is that Google
did this Aristotle project,where they basically
looked at teams andthey had one team, which
was all the high-performingpeople in the organization that
(44:58):
were really amazingat what they do,
had all the credentials, topschools, top A-performing team.
And then they had a second teamthat wasn't as well performing
but had highpsychological safety.
And the team withpsychological safety
beat the other teamin every measure.
And we've seen thisin the research.
So it's not so much about thisis just a nice thing to have.
(45:22):
This is about how can we createbetter work environments where
people can bring their bestselves to the workplace, where
people can feel understoodfor their differences
and accepted for who theyare, so that all of us
can have better outcomesin the work that we produce
and in how well we doas an organization.
(45:42):
Organizations need to recognizethat including neurodiversity
in the workplace is notso much of like, oh,
we need to prepare for theneurodivergent people that
are entering the workforce.
It's about recognizing thatneurodivergent people are
already there.
Neurodivergent peopleare already there.
They're probably masking.
(46:04):
They're probably struggling.
They're probably notasking questions.
And they're probably notbringing fresh, new perspectives
to the table because there's anenvironment that isn't creating
psychological safety to do so.
JILL FINLAYSON (46:17):
They're not able to achieve their potential.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (46:19):
Correct.
Having ADHD, I'vebeen in a workplace
where my strengths werelooked at as a nice to have
and an extra thing.
And I've been in workplaceswhere I've had managers
look at those trendsand say, how can I
put those trends to use?
And there's adifference, because when
(46:42):
my strengths arebeing put to use,
and there's a little bit offlexibility and understanding
about the things thatare harder for me,
I'm able to learn the thingsthat are harder for me
and excel at the thingsthat I'm great at,
and really movethe mission forward
in a way that's transformationalnot just for my team,
but for my entire organization.
JILL FINLAYSON (47:03):
Well, it's really interesting
because the more we talk aboutit, this idea of adaptability,
clarity, being able toarticulate your needs,
all of these things are relevantto everyone, as we pointed out.
And they are alreadyin the workplace.
So being able tocreate systems that
allow people tobe more effective
(47:24):
is obviously a top goal.
So as you thinkabout this, if we
look at each one of theseaudiences a little bit
differently, for theneurodivergent person who you
said may be masking,and maybe you
want to say a littlebit about what that is,
how might they unmask and howmight they get the most out
of their career?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (47:43):
Absolutely.
Masking is theneurodivergent person's way
of coping in aneurotypical world.
Masking might beme pretending to be
comfortable withsmall talk or sarcasm,
even though I don'tunderstand it.
I might laugh at a jokethat I don't understand,
for example, that's memasking in that conversation.
(48:04):
So to be able tounmask, first of all,
when there ispsychological safety,
people automatically unmask.
So if, for example, youhave a manager who says,
I want you to be honest with me.
I want you to be direct with me.
Any question is OK.
There's no stupid questions.
The door is open.
I want to be able to help you.
(48:26):
And I want to beable to manage you.
And I want to beable to work with you
and collaborate with youand empower you in the way
that you need.
And anything thatyou say is fair game
because I want this towork for both of us.
Let's say we just startwith that conversation.
And if on your veryfirst one-on-one
with your newemployee, you say that,
(48:46):
and you make it really clearthat we're in this together,
we're a team.
I want to empower you.
I want to make sure thatyour goals are being met
and what you want toaccomplish as an employee
here, as a professionalin this organization.
And how can I helpyou get there?
When you create thatroom, now that person
knows that they can cometo you with questions.
(49:08):
They can say, oh, I reallydon't understand that joke
that you said the other day.
And I did laugh in thatmoment, but to be honest,
I didn't get it.
And that might be notsomething that you
feel comfortable to share ifyou've already not created
some shared norms andexpectations around being
open with each other.
JILL FINLAYSON (49:29):
Yeah, that shared norms
and the unwritten rulescomes back into play here.
If you make people guess,they feel uncomfortable.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (49:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Another thing isneurodivergent people really
benefit from getting context.
So for me to be motivatedto do something,
I need to knowthe larger context
of why I'm doing something.
So my manager willliterally say,
this is what I needyou to do and this
is how this is going toimpact our larger mission.
(49:59):
And this will help us godo this, this, and this,
and hopefully in the futureit will lead to this.
And not a lot of peoplethink that far ahead.
But even if hejust went one level
with that to explain the contextto me, for me as an ADHD person,
it helps me click into that deepfocus and strategizing mode.
(50:19):
And I'm immediately clicked intowhat it is that I need to do
and how I could go about it.
And immediately, I'm able toask him questions about, well, I
understand this, this, and this,but can you explain this to me
before I start?
And him being able toanswer those questions
and be very directand explicit with me
(50:41):
helps me get back on track.
A lot of us also needsome accountability.
So if you are, suppose amanager who assigns a task,
but then there's no check-insbefore something is due,
a lot of my clients willask for the accommodation
of having more check-insso that they know
they're on the right track.
Sometimes, managers will saythey don't have time for that.
(51:02):
So again, do you seehow these things become
barriers for someone who mayneed support in a different way?
But maybe the policies andprocedures of the organization,
or even how someonemanages a team,
can cause challenges forthe neurodivergent person
to really get what it is thatthey need to be successful.
JILL FINLAYSON (51:22):
We've covered a huge amount of ground.
So if you were to have partingwords of wisdom to somebody
who identifies asneurodivergent,
what are your partingwords of wisdom to them?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (51:32):
I would say that the best
thing that any neurodivergentperson can do for themselves
is to learn as much as theycan about their strengths
so that they can leadwith their strengths,
and understand as much as theycan about their differences
as well.
Because it's equally importantto know how your mind,
(51:53):
how your brain worksdifferently so that you can ask
for the things that you need.
And that self-acceptanceand that self-compassion
that we all need to have forourselves can help you be more
empowered to advocate foryourself and to enter the room
and be able to say,this is how I work best.
This is what I need.
(52:14):
I would reallyappreciate more feedback.
I would really appreciatemore check-ins.
Being able to saythose kinds of things
as a neurodivergent personis incredibly empowering.
And I think we are allafraid to ask for help.
We're all afraid to speak up.
We're all afraid to reallybe open and vulnerable.
But sometimes, when you'rein a safe environment,
(52:37):
having that space to share whatit is that you're experiencing,
and sharing your perspectives,cannot just change
the experience for yourself,but it can also empower everyone
else in the team,everyone else in the room,
everyone else in theauditorium, wherever you are,
to think aboutsomething differently.
(52:57):
And we all need that.
We all need that right now.
So I think that if you area neurodivergent person,
reach that placeof self-compassion
and self-acceptance.
Lead with your strengths.
And always, always,always advocate.
Because self-advocacyis not supposed
(53:18):
to be some weird,complicated HR process.
It is about askingfor what we need
so we can show up as ourbest, most authentic person
wherever we are.
JILL FINLAYSON: And your top tips (53:30):
undefined
for the companiesor the leaders?
Obviously,compassionate curiosity
and being responsiveto these requests when
people express what they need.
Is there anything elsethat they should be doing?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (53:44):
Yeah.
I think organizations need to doa lot better job of increasing
awareness about neurodiversityin their workplace,
not just for the people who areentering the workforce, which
many of them areneurodivergent, but also
the neurodivergent people thatare already in your workplace.
There might be people inyour workplace already
(54:05):
who are masking,who are struggling,
who are not disclosingtheir diagnoses,
because they're afraid thatthey will not be accepted
and they will not be includedbecause of their differences.
JILL FINLAYSON (54:18):
So what does the future of work
look like witheverybody included?
How do you see in thenext 5 years, 10 years,
how is the workplacegoing to improve?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (54:27):
I think the workplace needs
to take a really good, hardlook at the kind of experience
that they are providingto their employees,
and to identify ways todo things differently.
Because even if we've donethings a certain way for a very,
very, very long time, we allhave a duty and responsibility
(54:48):
to look at that and saywhere can we do a better job?
And since COVID and all thedifferent transitions we've had,
from being ableto work from home
and going back to the office,and this whole wave of layoffs,
and the beginning ofAI, we're in a lot
of transformationaltimes right now.
And I think what everyorganization needs to focus on
(55:11):
is getting ahead ofall of this change
and really doing the reallyintentional, important work
of improving thepsychological safety
within their organizations.
If they don't, they'rejust going to fall behind.
And people today wantto work in organizations
where they do feelincluded and accepted
(55:33):
and where they dofeel belonging.
And regardless of what's goingon in the rest of society,
diversity is here.
It's not going anywhere.
JILL FINLAYSON: And what makes you (55:42):
undefined
optimistic about thefuture for neurodivergence?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA: I think what makes (55:47):
undefined
me optimistic aboutthe future in terms
of neurodivergent peoplein the workplace is
that the awareness hasincreased a lot over the years.
There's a lot morepeople talking
about neurodiversity today thanthey were even two years ago,
five years ago.
And that's a huge change.
There's a lot ofyoung people who
(56:08):
are not being afraid to advocatefor what it is that they need.
And there's a lot ofneurodivergent people
who are being reallyempowered in that identity,
rather than feelingshame from it
or other negativefeelings attached to that.
And that's really important forus as a society to celebrate.
We need to celebratepeople being
(56:29):
open about theirneurodivergence,
because we live in a worldwhere all of our perspectives
are needed.
That is what makes thisdiversity the diversity
that it is.
And it is beautifulbecause we all
have different perspectivesthat we bring to the table.
And that's what moves us forwardas a species, in my opinion.
JILL FINLAYSON (56:50):
Thank you so much for joining us today.
Thank you for being part ofthis change and awareness.
And thank you for sharing yourexperience and your insights
on how people can reallymake this a reality
and really embrace and unleashall of this amazing potential.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (57:06):
Thank you so much, Jill.
I really appreciate you.
JILL FINLAYSON (57:09):
Thank you so much, Khushboo.
And with that, I hopeyou enjoyed this latest
in a long series ofpodcasts that we'll be
sending your way every month.
Please share withfriends and colleagues
who may be interested in takingthis Future of Work journey
with us.
And make sure to check outextension.berkeley.edu to find
a variety of coursesto help you thrive
in this new working landscape.
(57:30):
And to see what's comingup at EDGE in Tech,
go ahead and visitedge.berkeley.edu.
Thanks so much forlistening, and we'll
be back next month to talk aboutorganizational communication
strategies to succeed.
The Future of Work podcastis hosted by Jill Finlayson,
produced by Sarah Benzuly, andedited by Matt Dipietro, Natalie
Newman, and Alicia Liao.
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[MUSIC PLAYING]
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KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (00:05):
This is about how can we create better work
environments, where peoplecan bring their best selves
to the workplace, wherepeople can feel understood
for their differences andaccepted for who they are,
so that all of us can havebetter outcomes in the work
that we produce and in howwell we do as an organization.
Organizations need to recognizethat including neurodiversity
(00:28):
in the workplace is notso much of like, oh,
we need to prepare for theneurodivergent people that
are entering the workforce.
It's about recognizing thatneurodivergent people are
already there.
JILL FINLAYSON (00:41):
Welcome to the Future of Work podcast
with Berkeley Extensionand EDGE in Tech
at the University of California,focused on expanding diversity
and gender equity in tech.
EDGE in Tech is part of theInnovation Hub at Citrus,
the Center for IT Researchin the Interest of Society
and the Banatao Institute.
UC Berkeley Extension isthe continuing education arm
for the University ofCalifornia at Berkeley.
(01:03):
In this episode, we'rediving into a topic that's
reshaping modernworkplaces and unlocking
incredible potential--neurodiversity.
From creatinginclusive environments
to tapping into theunique strengths
of the neurodivergentindividuals bring to the table,
we'll explore howorganizations can
evolve beyondtraditional approaches
and thrive in a world thatcelebrates and leverages
(01:25):
difference.
To talk about thisimportant topic,
we're delighted towelcome Khushboo Chabria.
Khushboo is aneurodiversity specialist
and a transformational leader.
She is on a missionto advocate for access
to high-quality servicesto inspire and improve
the intentional inclusion ofneuro-distinct individuals
in society.
Khushboo is a programmanager, career coach,
(01:47):
and speaker with theNeurodiversity Pathways
program of the Goodwillof Silicon Valley.
She also sits on the boardof Peaces of Me Foundation.
Welcome, Khushboo.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (01:56):
Thank you so much for having me, Jill.
I'm super excited to talkabout this topic with you.
JILL FINLAYSON (02:01):
Likewise.
And I always feel like normalis really part of a spectrum.
So can you start out by talkingabout what neurodiversity is
and why is it important inthe context of the workplace?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (02:14):
Absolutely.
I mean, neurodiversityis simply variation
in brain function and behavior.
We're all part ofneurodiversity.
We all have differentways that our brains work.
I mean, if we lookacross any room,
we see people with differenthair colors, skin color, eye
color, differentheights, weight.
(02:35):
And we don't assume thatthat difference is abnormal.
We accept all those differencesas absolutely normal.
And therefore, I think that whenwe think about neurodiversity,
it's really ridiculous toassume that our brains are
going to be exactly thesame from one another.
And we know that's not true.
(02:57):
The way we process information,the way we communicate,
the way we make senseof things, I mean,
that's very differentperson to person.
And that's allneurodiversity is.
But one mainprinciple that we call
a principle ofneuro-inclusion is
that neurodiversity is normal.
Neurodiversity has alwaysexisted throughout history,
(03:20):
throughout time.
And neurodiversity isalways going to exist.
And that's the part of thediversity of humanity, I think.
JILL FINLAYSON (03:29):
Since it is part of normal and kind of expanding,
if you will, the definitionof normal to be reflective
of these differentapproaches and personalities.
So if it's normal,why are we running
into problems of bias ordiscrimination in the workplace?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (03:45):
It's a really complicated question to ask.
There's multiple factors there.
I think that there's thiswhole idea of an office culture
and hiring peoplebased on cultural fit.
And if we really look at whatthat is, it's around sameness.
It's around being in rooms whereeveryone has basically always
(04:09):
been there and feeling likethat's what it should be.
When really, weneed more diversity,
we need more diverseperspectives in the workplace.
Because if we're going to solvethe kinds of complex problems
we're facing todayin society, we're
going to need people withdifferent perspectives
at the table.
I believe that oneof the main reasons
(04:30):
we are where weare as a species,
and because of how muchinnovation we've had,
is due to the fact thatthere's neurodiversity,
that there are neurodivergentminds and people who
think outside the box and havenovel ways to solve problems,
because that's really needed.
I think that's somethingthat will move us forward
(04:52):
as a society.
JILL FINLAYSON (04:54):
Say a little bit more
about how neurodivergentfolks maybe think differently
or process informationdifferently.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (05:00):
Yeah.
I mean, every neurodivergentperson is very unique.
So I want to actuallyput that as a disclaimer.
Because when you meet oneneurodivergent person,
you've only met that one person.
And their strengthsand differences
are absolutely unique to them.
This is why servicesand supports
need to be more individualized.
(05:22):
And we can't really putlike a standardization
in how neurodivergentpeople should be supported.
Briefly speaking, there'sa lot of differences
in how neurodivergentpeople communicate.
They might have differencesin how they socially
interact with people, howthey make meaning of things,
so their cognitive abilitiesmight be a little bit different.
(05:43):
Also, there's this thingabout sensory sensitivities.
A lot of neurodivergent people,autistic people mostly, but also
people with ADHD and dyslexiasense the world differently.
And that can affect anyof their five senses,
whether that's touch,that's hearing,
that's sight, that'ssmell, all of that.
(06:03):
And so those differencesneed to be regulated
in a neurodivergent person.
And therefore, they might engagein stimming, which is engaging
in repetitive behavior.
And we used to thinkthat was only common
for neurodivergent people.
But it turns out all of us stim.
So if you are in a meetingand you check your phone
(06:24):
or you find yourself doodlingor playing with your hair,
that's you stimming.
But neurodivergentpeople might just
do that a lot more than theneurotypical people, who maybe
don't need to regulate theirbody that much because they
don't have anoverload of sensations
from the world around them.
JILL FINLAYSON (06:42):
Yeah.
So put me in the mind of aperson who is neurodivergent.
And to your point, thereare different aspects
of this ADHD, autism, dyslexia,a lot of different categories.
But how might they experiencea group meeting differently
than a neurotypical person?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA: There might be a lot (07:01):
undefined
of different things going on.
So one thing is, aneurodivergent person
might struggle with small talk.
So if that meeting kindof begins with small talk,
that might be something thatmaybe the neurodivergent person
might not be able to engagein, because that actually
does not feel natural toneurodivergent people.
(07:23):
Neurodivergent people arevery straight to the point,
and they kind of want to getto work, get to the task.
And so having small talk aroundcertain topics like the weather
or what we did over theweekend or the holidays
might be uncomfortable forthe neurodivergent person,
or they might not respond toit in the way that you expect.
(07:44):
But that doesn'tmean they're not
qualified for their positions.
So we kind of need todifferentiate those things.
Maybe you have a neurodivergentperson on your team
who doesn't reallyunderstand sarcasm.
And if someone inthe meeting is making
jokes or kind of saying thingsthat aren't really direct,
that might not be clear tothe neurodivergent person.
(08:06):
Neurodivergent peoplereally need clear and direct
instructions on what itis that they need to do.
And they need to haveclear directives of who's
responsible forwhat to really have
the context underwhich they're working.
JILL FINLAYSON (08:21):
It feels like clear direction is something
that everyonewould benefit from.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (08:26):
Absolutely.
And that's one ofthe things, Jill.
When we do these trainingswith organizations
on really understanding howto support neurodiversity
in the workplace, very often,someone will raise their hand
and say, but this isn't specificto neurodivergent people.
And we'll say, exactly.
Because the kinds of things thatwe're talking about actually
(08:49):
improve psychologicalsafety for everyone.
Another example forthe meeting, Jill,
is a lot ofneurodivergent people
don't know when tointerject in a conversation.
This is something thatI struggle with as well
in my own group settings.
And I happen to have amanager who accommodates me
by actually asking me toshare my perspectives when
(09:10):
I've been quiet for some time.
A great analogy for this.
My colleague John says that it'skind of like those crisscross
when you're doing the jumpropes with two jump ropes,
and you kind of have to jump inand know when you can jump in.
It's kind of like that forsomeone who's neurodivergent.
They might not knowwhen to interject.
(09:31):
They might feeljudged or feel scared
that they're going to bejudged for what they're saying.
Or maybe by the time that theyactually get a chance to speak,
the topic of themeeting has changed.
These are the kinds ofthings we're talking
about communication wise.
But then again, we also seemanagers in the workplace now
who might put on aperformance evaluation
(09:51):
that someone's not participatingin meetings enough.
So you can see howsomething so simple as this
can end up becominga performance
issue for an employee, orsomething that a manager might
ding them for, when really,it's just a difference in how
their brain works ora difference in how
they socially interact.
But one thing about interjectingin conversations, that's
(10:15):
not just something thatneurodivergent people
struggle with.
That's also something that womenstruggle with when they are
the only woman in the meeting.
It's something that someone whois an English second language
speaker is going tostruggle with as well.
It's also going to be somethingthat maybe an immigrant
or someone from adifferent culture
is going to struggle with.
(10:35):
And to the point I madeearlier about the sarcasm
or making cultural referencesor things like that
in conversation, if someone isnot from here, if someone has
a different culturalbackground or doesn't
have the same references,you can see that even
in a social atmospherein the workplace,
you're technically excludingpeople from that conversation.
JILL FINLAYSON (10:58):
Yeah.
So new leaders andpeople who are leading
have to be more aware ofwhat's going on in the room.
And as you said, appliesto introverts, extroverts,
any sort of reasonswhy people might not
be as fluent or as comfortablein a meeting setting like that.
What do peoplemisconstrue, or what
(11:19):
are some of the misconceptions?
So if they seethese behaviors, you
mentioned that aboss might think,
oh, they're justnot very engaged.
What are some of thethings that people
misinterpret orsome misconceptions
about neurodivergent?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (11:32):
I mean, there are so many, Jill.
I don't know where to start.
But as someone withADHD, for example, I
can tell you peoplewill assume I'm lazy,
or that I'm notinterested in the work,
or that I'm not checking myemails because I didn't know
that my manager wantedme to respond and say,
yes, I got this.
(11:52):
These are the kindsof simple things
that may just be a differencein us understanding
how emails should be received.
But it could beperceived as me really
not caring about theemails being sent to me,
or caring about what mymanager wants me to do,
or maybe not even doing whatI'm being asked to do, right?
Because if I'm notresponding to emails,
(12:14):
someone might assume thatI'm not even checking.
We're very good atjumping to assumptions.
And this is one ofthe other things,
one of the main principlesof neuroinclusion,
which we also talkabout in our book,
is the concept ofcompassionate curiosity.
And that is that whensomething doesn't make sense
or if something's odd toyou or different to you,
(12:38):
instead of jumpingto the conclusion
that, wow, thisperson is so rude,
they didn't laughat my joke, maybe I
can have compassion forthe other person's history,
their life experience,because I don't
know what it's been liketo be in their shoes,
to live their life, or knowwhat they know or don't know,
(12:58):
and to get curious, and to ask.
One time I asked oneof my coaching clients,
every now and then whenI'm talking to you,
I feel like you're justsaying yes, yes, yes, but I
don't know if I'mgetting through to you.
Can you explain tome what's going on?
And he literallylooked at me and said,
you're sharing too muchinformation and I just cannot
(13:23):
keep up.
[LAUGHS]
And I had to say,well, an accommodation
I would love to ask for isthat if we get to that point,
just stop me and tell methat you want to take a break
or let's continue thisconversation next week.
And that's totally OK with me.
Now, again, if youdid this as a manager
(13:45):
to someone who's ina meeting with you,
you're basically allowingthem to really bring
their best self tothe workplace and ask
for what they need so thattheir success can be enabled
and so that theirstrengths can shine.
I know that if myclient has the capacity
to hear me and understandwhat I'm saying
(14:06):
and take the feedbackthat I'm giving them,
they're going to bebetter off for it.
And if they can let me knowwhen that is sort of hindered,
we can have a betterworking relationship
together because of thatcompassionate curiosity.
And a lot of times,managers don't ask.
That's what it is.
I have been given aperformance evaluation feedback
(14:30):
about not meeting deadlines.
And if my manager hadreally sat down and asked
me what's going on, Iwould have explained
all the other outsidefactors that are affecting
me meeting that deadline.
And I can be proactive about it.
But if I still getdinged for something,
where is it that we're reallycreating that understanding
(14:50):
and empathy for thepeople that we work with?
If we're managingthem out, where
is the mentoring happening?
Or thinking about, wow, maybethere's something in our system
that we need to look at so thatwe can have better workflows,
we can have bettermeeting of deadlines.
Maybe we can lookat what is really
something that is an outsidefactor that can be addressed,
(15:14):
that isn't the responsibilityof this employee,
but is affectingtheir performance
because we're lookingat it in this rigid way.
JILL FINLAYSON (15:21):
Yeah.
Well, you've hintedat some ways that we
can improve themanagement of people
who bring different skills.
And it would be helpful totalk about accommodations.
Before we dive into whatkind of accommodations
companies andsupervisors can provide,
I think it wouldbe worth asking,
(15:43):
how do people whoare neurodivergent
feel about askingfor accommodations?
Because maybe they don'twant people to know
or they're justtrying to fit in.
So maybe before we startasking for accommodations,
what's the perspective ofsomebody who's in these shoes?
How do they feelabout asking for help?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA: It's very complicated. (16:02):
undefined
I'll be honest, Jill,most of my clients
don't feel comfortabledisclosing in their applications
that they're neurodivergent.
They do feel a lot of bias,even in the interview process
when they have disclosedit in the past.
And I'm going to behonest, a lot of people
carry trauma fromhaving disclosed
(16:23):
and not gotten thesupport that they need.
Because the way that we thinkabout accommodations and the way
that our systemis now with IDEA,
we're literally askingcompanies to give us
what we need so we canwork in the best way that's
possible for us.
And that should be a given.
(16:43):
We actually prefer to callthem success enablers instead
of accommodations, becausereally, what you're doing is
you're enabling thatemployee, that person,
to bring their bestfriends to the workplace
and to do their best work,and to be able to focus,
and to be able to get what itis that they need to get done
(17:04):
because they're beingsupported in how
they work, how they think,how they process information.
We're in the 21st century, wherewe have to admit none of us
process informationthe same way.
If we've done all these stridesin making education more
inclusive, and makingmedicine more inclusive,
(17:25):
and thinking about allthese other areas of society
where we think about thatinclusion of differences
in brain and behavior function,how can we not accommodate that
readily in the workplace?
JILL FINLAYSON (17:39):
So it's sort of a two-pronged attack here.
We need to move so that peoplecan ask for the accommodations
that they need withoutfear and without bias.
And we, also for the individual,if they don't want to disclose,
we have to figureout how can they
ask for the successenablers that will allow
them to bring their A game?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (17:58):
Yeah.
I mean, one of the things thatI tell my clients all the time
is to directly tell theirmanager, I work best when blank.
I need this to focus.
I would really love to have aday where I don't have meetings.
These are very simplethings that all of us
can do to advocatefor ourselves.
(18:19):
One of the biggestbarriers in the workplace
is there's a lot of things thatwe do in the workplace that
are just things thateverybody knows,
but they're notwritten down anywhere.
They're not explicitlystated anywhere.
So if we think about supportingneurodivergent people the way
we think about supportingnew hires, it's very similar.
(18:40):
It's about letting that personknow, hey, in this office,
on Fridays, usually by4:00 PM, everyone's gone.
So you don't have tobe here till 5:00 PM.
Or, hey, if you need helpwith this or this or this,
this is the person to go to.
We do that automaticallywhen we get a new person
on our team, when we hire anew person in the organization.
(19:03):
But there arestill other things,
like during themeeting on this day,
the manager expects you togive you a report, knowing
that before the meetingwould be so great,
and to know that that'sa norm or an expectation.
But sometimes we havenorms and expectations
that we don'tdirectly state, but we
expect other people to follow.
And that's kind of where theexclusion starts happening,
(19:26):
because a neurodivergentperson understands things
very literally, so theykind of need to be told.
JILL FINLAYSON (19:33):
So what are some of the things
that you have taught yourclients about getting what they
need, the successenablers, here's
what I need to be successful.
Here's what I need tobe able to accomplish
my work in a timely manner.
But what are someof the other things
that you've advised them to doin terms of ensuring that they
can have the spaceand the things
(19:54):
that they need to be successful?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (19:56):
The very first thing that I have my clients
do is to think specificallyabout what they need
and for what thing thatthey're struggling with.
So, for example,if I want to have
Grammarly on mycomputer or something,
that's a very simple one.
Let's talk about aneurodivergent one.
Let's say I do want to have aday where I don't have meetings.
(20:19):
Let's say I want Fridaysto be a no meeting day.
And I think one of thethings that organizations
do that's reallyunfortunate is that we
make asking foraccommodations this really
tedious and complicatedmulti-step process, which
in itself is so disempoweringfor a neurodivergent person
(20:42):
already.
Because an organization getsto say whether they will allow
or not allow thataccommodation to be offered
to the neurodivergent person.
And when you look atthat, already, there's
kind of like apower dynamic there.
Let's say that the persondoes absolutely need something
(21:02):
and they have orhave not disclosed.
If they haven'tdisclosed, I would
ask if that accommodationis something
that they can ask forwithout disclosing first.
Because you can easilyjust have a conversation
with your manager, ask themfor a one-on-one meeting,
and explained to them howhaving a day without meetings
(21:23):
is going to help themaccomplish their project work.
For example.
Very simple.
JILL FINLAYSON (21:28):
Right.
Tying it to the largercorporate goals.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (21:31):
And if you have an understanding manager
and you have someonewho's like, yeah,
that's totally understandable.
Of course.
Why don't we move this around,or take a look at this,
or you don't need tocome to this meeting.
There's a lot ofthings the manager can
do right there in that moment.
Now, if the managersays no, this
is not somethingthat's possible,
then the person can actuallygo to their HR office
(21:55):
and decide to disclose.
And that's very complicated.
A lot of organizationsstill do require the person
to provide a formal diagnosis inorder to get an accommodation.
And that'sunfortunately something
that not allneurodivergent people have,
because many of them havegrown up without ever getting
diagnosed and aregetting a late diagnosis,
(22:17):
or have done a self-diagnosis byreally researching into things
and figuring out, wow, I'vespent an entire lifetime not
knowing I have autism or ADHD.
We also have an increasingnumber of people
who are identifyingtheir diagnoses
after their childrenare getting diagnoses.
So there's all thesedifferent trends
(22:39):
with how diagnosticprocesses have changed.
Additionally, thefirst diagnoses
that were created forautism, those assessments
were created only by studyingwhite eight-year-old middle
class boys.
It didn't includewomen, little girls.
It didn't include people fromother cultures, other races,
(23:00):
other socioeconomic statuses.
Since that time, ourassessment processes
have increased andimproved a lot.
However, we stillhave a lot of gaps
in how we diagnose autistic,or ADHD, or dyslexic adults.
So the tools were all createdmeasuring, looking at,
(23:22):
and studying children.
But a lot of people arenow identifying as adults
that they struggledwith the same things
when they were children.
JILL FINLAYSON (23:30):
So in your view, official diagnosis
is not something that shouldbe a prerequisite for asking
for accommodation.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (23:37):
I'm not sure if it should be
or it shouldn't, but I will saythat there's a lot of barriers
to getting a diagnosis.
It's very expensive.
The waiting lists are very long.
The providers that do provideassessments are very few.
You're already creatinganother five-step process
for that person toget a no meeting day.
JILL FINLAYSON (23:57):
As we think about this,
you do hear stories aboutpeople finding out in adulthood
that they are dyslexic.
And oh, that explains why Istruggled in these situations.
What was your experienceand how did you find out
that you had a diagnosis?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (24:12):
So, it's really interesting
because, before Igot my diagnosis,
I was already working withneurodivergent individuals
as a clinician.
So I was working with childrenwith ADHD, autism, dyslexia,
Tourette's, a lotof different things,
hearing impaired,speech impaired.
I worked a lot withnon-speaking autistic people
(24:32):
as well, which is actuallya huge part of my experience
before I went into theneurodiversity space.
When I was in the field andinteracting with people,
socializing all day long,solving novel problems
on the spot, that'swhere my ADHD thrives.
(24:53):
I am at my best when I'mengaging with people,
when I'm face toface, when I'm having
a one-on-one conversation.
Group conversations area little tricky for me,
with that interjectingin conversations.
But working with a client,really focusing on something,
and because I'm motivatedby the work that I do,
I am really engagedin what I'm doing
(25:15):
and I'm reallymotivated to do it well.
And so when I was workingin the field as a clinician,
I was great.
I was on point.
I was meeting all myperformance measures,
everything that my KPIincluded was great.
But nobody tells youthis, but the further
you move up in yourcareer, the more you
(25:36):
get away from directlyworking with clients.
And now you're managingpeople, and you're
dealing with office politics,and you have deadlines,
and you're fighting withinsurance companies,
and you have spreadsheets andreports due every single week.
And it just becomesreally, really tedious.
And one of the main thingsthat I struggle with in regards
(25:57):
to my ADHD is myexecutive functioning.
So executive functioningis our ability
to organize tasks, manageour time, manage tasks.
It's cognitive regulation,emotional regulation,
behavior regulation.
And it's being able to do lotsof different kinds of things,
like knowing how longsomething should take,
(26:17):
knowing how toprioritize tasks even,
knowing how to ask forinformation preemptively
before you run into problems.
These are all executivefunctioning issues
that different people have.
One of the things that we do inour workforce, for some reason,
is we promote people basedon merit, having degrees.
(26:39):
But we were not actuallytaught management skills
and how to leadpeople and how to deal
with different personalitiesthat you deal with when
you're working with clients.
And I kind of had to learnall of that on the spot.
And so as a neurodivergentperson, as I moved up further
in my career, I just startedstruggling with everything.
(27:00):
And I was fallingbehind in my work.
And these things don'thappen in a vacuum.
It's like one thingleads to the other.
So I was fallingbehind in my work.
I was pulling allnighters to complete
the work that I had to do.
Now I'm sleep deprived at work.
Now I'm cranky at work.
It just turns into awhirlwind of chaos.
(27:23):
And it's just simplethings like that.
Or I am dealing with alot of office politics.
Or I'm having to givecorrective feedback to one
of my therapists, for example.
And now I'm stressedout about it all day
and I'm not able to focus on theother things I need to get done.
And as someonewith anxiety, that
affects me more thanit affects someone
(27:44):
who doesn't have anxiety.
JILL FINLAYSON (27:46):
So how did you know this wasn't just,
oh, I'm stressed at work?
How did you know there wassomething else going on?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (27:52):
I actually ended up at a clinic.
I wanted to go see a therapistbecause I thought I was just
burnt out and depressed.
And it just so happenedthat I had a therapist who
was very keen to notice that inevery single one of my stories,
the point that ledto all the issues
was an executivefunctioning issue.
(28:13):
And so she pulled that threadand she said, have you ever
wondered if you have ADHD?
And I had never eventhought about it.
When I was in college,I was diagnosed
with generalized anxietydisorder, which who knows what
that means, right?
It could be anything.
And then at some point,I was misdiagnosed
(28:35):
as having bipolar disorder.
Because bipolar disorder, theway it has the highs and lows,
ADHD can look like that as well.
Because people with ADHDhave points in their journey
where they're feeling a lotof depression because of the
struggles that they'refacing of having
ADHD in a neurotypical world.
(28:56):
You just constantly feel likeyou're getting nothing, right.
And that takes a hugetoll on your psyche.
So my therapist noticedthat all the stories
that I was sharing with her ledback to an executive functioning
issue.
And she had me do thetest on a computer
(29:17):
where I had to, I don'tremember exactly what it was,
but if you see this picture,then press this key.
If you see thispicture, press this key.
Kept messing it up.
She interviewed my mom.
She basically went through allthe notes of all the therapy
that we had done together.
And she created a reportsaying that I had ADHD.
JILL FINLAYSON (29:37):
And how did that diagnosis change
how you thought about things?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA: Honestly, at first I (29:41):
undefined
was relieved because Ifinally had an answer.
So much of my lifeI had been made
fun of for not having my thingstogether, being disorganized.
As a child, my teachersalways complained
that I was missing assignmentsor turning in things late.
There's a history toall of these things.
(30:03):
My mom reported in her interviewhow talkative I was as a child
and how I had no boundarieswith absolute strangers.
I would just go up to peopleand ask them for things
and just literally talkto anyone about anything.
And I wanted to bearound adults because I
had so many questions to ask,as a young girl with ADHD.
(30:26):
And I didn't feel closeto peers my own age
because they couldn'tanswer any of my questions.
So my favorite activity wouldbe to find an adult that
was open to answeringthe questions I had,
and literally just ask themabout all kinds of random things
to fulfill my curiositybefore Google existed.
JILL FINLAYSON (30:46):
So compassionate curiosity was already
a skill strength you brought.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (30:50):
A lot of neurodivergent people
have a lot of empathy.
They are very compassionate.
They're very committedto the work that they do.
If they align with themission of your organization,
of the project, of theteam, you will never
see anyone work harder.
A lot of them have very,very strong interest
in specific areas.
(31:10):
And they will knoweverything about that topic.
So if a neurodivergent personis interested in gaming,
they will know aboutthe history of the game.
They will know about thecharacter development
of the game.
They will tell you about howthe game has changed over time.
They will know everything aboutevery character in the game.
They will know everythingabout that topic
when they'repassionate about it.
(31:32):
A lot of neurodivergent peoplehave super focus as well.
That's somethingthat I believe is
an ADHD skill and ahuge strength of mine,
where when I am able to get intothat flow state of deep focus,
I'm able to get aweek's worth of work
done in just a few hours.
JILL FINLAYSON (31:51):
So recognizing that these type of personalities
can be expressly goodfor certain roles.
And you need that personwho's absolutely expert
and can go very deepon a particular topic.
This is a person who couldbe a great fit for that.
Yeah, I mean, a lot of people don't know this,
but people with ADHD areexcellent entrepreneurs.
(32:13):
They're great atnetworking as well.
If you put them in businessdevelopment and sales,
they can do extremely well.
It's funny you should mention that.
Some time ago, I interviewedthe founder of Kinko's.
And he said himselfthat he was ADHD,
but he said thatturned out to be
one of the best aspectsof his leadership,
(32:34):
was he got out of the building.
He let people do their jobs.
He wasn't micromanagingor over them
because he didn't wantto be in the store.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (32:40):
And that's why context matters.
Because for me to get ina state of super focus,
for example, I need to be inmy room and I work from home.
I have blackout curtains thatI use to make my room dark.
I put my headphones in.
I put concentration music on soI don't want to be interrupted.
And I just want to be in flowstate for five to six hours.
(33:04):
I get all my admin done.
I make a lot of progresson project work.
I might get a lot of reachingout to people, following up
on things.
I'm verydetail-oriented as well.
And we have to thinkabout how great
that is to have in the workplaceif we can just accommodate it.
JILL FINLAYSON (33:23):
So that brings us back to the accommodations.
So if we want to unleashthis talent and potential,
what are some ofthe systemic ways
that companies can change theenvironment so that it works
better for everyone?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (33:37):
There's some really simple things.
I think if we treat eachother with the principle
of compassionatecuriosity, for example,
that's a very simple wayto accommodate everyone.
If we are talking about wantingsomeone with high attention
to detail in theworkplace, we have
to recognize what that actuallylooks like in the workplace.
That's going to be theperson who points out
(33:59):
errors on the report.
That's going to besomeone who's going
to correct youbecause they want what
you're saying to be accurate.
So if you notice someone who'sdoing that in the workplace,
instead of assumingthat that's coming
from a negativeintention, recognize
that that person isbringing high attention
to detail and a focus onexcellence to the work.
(34:23):
That's something wewant in the workplace.
If you want someone to be ableto do that deep level of focus,
for example, andyou know that there
are people who need dedicatedtime to do that deep work,
recognize where we might bescheduling too many meetings
or having too manyinterruptions.
Are we expecting ouremployees to respond to emails
(34:44):
as soon as they get them?
And if we are, we haveto think about how that
impacts their ability to work.
So even thinking about oursimple processes and policies
that we have.
If you want creativeand innovative thinkers
in the workplace, such as peoplewho think outside the box,
and bring fresh perspectivesto the table, we have to ask,
(35:05):
are we open to those freshperspectives in this meeting?
Or are people gettingshut down as soon
as they suggest a new thing?
Are we even hearing people?
Are we giving people thespace to share ideas?
Or are we saying, no, this ishow we've always done things?
And these are someof the questions
that I thinkorganizations need to ask,
(35:27):
because I don't thinkany organization
sets out trying tocreate exclusion
for any personwith any identity.
We don't thinkabout it that way.
But if we recognizethat now that there's
all this diversityamong us and we
have people whocommunicate differently,
people who speak differentlanguages, people who
(35:47):
may be very literal in howthey understand information,
if we know thatalready as something
we all accept asnormal, why is it
that we can't justchange how we communicate
a little bit differentlyso that everyone
can be on the same page?
JILL FINLAYSON (36:04):
So it sounds like there's
an opportunity, obviously,for leadership development
and helping them tounderstand how clarity,
how people might communicatein different ways,
they might have different needs.
So being more accommodatingfor different styles
of doing the work.
Are there also actionablesteps for the HR department?
Are there thingsthat they should
(36:24):
be doing to reduce that red tapethat you were talking about?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (36:27):
Yeah.
I mean, I think in terms ofrecruitment and hiring, HR
departments, leadershipteams, management teams
can look at whether theirjob descriptions are honest.
Are we reallyexpecting people to do
the jobs of three differentemployees in one job
description?
Because mostneurodivergent people
(36:48):
who look at that aresaying they're already not
qualified for thatposition when they
look at it on the otherside of the screen.
JILL FINLAYSON (36:55):
So better job descriptions,
fewer requirements,because if you list it,
they're going to be like,I need to have that.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (37:02):
Correct.
I mean, if you have excellentwritten and verbal communication
on your job description,most neurodivergent people
are honest enough and havethat much integrity that they
will say that theircommunication skills are not
excellent.
It's a very simple thing,but if you actually
put those terms inlike a LinkedIn search,
(37:23):
you'll notice that themajority of job descriptions
use this canned language inhow we identify what skills are
actually necessary for a job.
We have to think about that.
The way we interviewpeople is another thing.
Having trick questions, havingvague, open-ended questions
in your interviews issomething that's very confusing
(37:43):
for neurodivergent people.
For example, tellme about yourself.
Something most conversationsstart with that question.
And many neurodivergent peopleare absolutely stumped by that
because it's so vague.
And everyone answers thatsuper differently, right?
Are you asking aboutmy work history?
(38:04):
Are you asking about myeducational background?
Are you asking to tell youlike an elevator pitch?
What exactly is, tell me aboutyourself, and what interviewers
are expecting from aquestion like that?
JILL FINLAYSON (38:18):
How would you change that question?
And if I'm on thereceiving end of that
question, how could I changethat question so I understand
it better?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA: The way I teach (38:26):
undefined
my students is to share acouple of things about--
so I ask them to share threestrands a personal strength,
a professional strength,and a strength that's
directly relevant to thejob that you're applying to.
So being able to say,Hi, I'm Khushboo.
And you can start with seeingyour educational background.
(38:46):
So you can say, I have adegree in this and this,
and I'm reallypassionate about this.
And these are threestrengths of mine.
And that's how I havemy students answer it.
But if you're an employer,instead of asking that, saying,
what made you applyto this position?
And how do you feelthat your previous work
experience can be appliedto a position like this one?
(39:08):
We can be more specificin how we ask questions.
And we can be moreclear in what it
is that we're expecting peopleto respond with in order for us
to feel that they'requalified for that position.
JILL FINLAYSON (39:21):
Rather than making people guess
what you're trying to get at.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (39:26):
And also, I don't know where in society we
went from asking peopleabout their ability to do
a job to just random questions.
JILL FINLAYSON (39:36):
Yeah, they definitely have been doing that.
Like, what do youdo outside of work?
And you're like, wait,I was in work mode.
What are you asking meabout outside of work?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (39:44):
Yeah.
And there's the surprisequestions, the trick questions,
the timed questions.
Now we're justmaking it an obstacle
course for a neurodivergentperson, right?
There's a lot of things in theentire recruitment and hiring
process that companiesneed to look at in terms
of how many barriers they'reactually creating for people who
(40:06):
may not understand the socialaspect of the interview,
or who may communicate justa little bit differently
than you expect.
But those things areactually basically making
it so that we're missing outon this amazing talent that's
out there, by creating theseweird, arbitrary rules that
(40:26):
shouldn't apply to how weidentify as someone could
do a job.
JILL FINLAYSON (40:31):
So say they make it through the obstacle course
and they have a job,what are some of the ways
that coworkers canhelp them thrive?
And thinking aboutthis, coworkers
may notice somebody isvery blunt or direct,
or they may notice thatsomebody is not participating
in the social activities.
So what could a coworker do?
(40:52):
And has there been anexperience that you've
had with a coworker thatreally helped you and made
you feel welcome?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (40:57):
Yeah.
I feel like I'm going tosound like a broken record
when I say this,Jill, but I have to.
It's aboutcompassionate curiosity.
If someone didn'tlaugh at a joke
or if someone's notparticipating in a meeting,
instead of assuming thatthat person didn't want
to participate or didn'thave anything to say,
I could just say, hey, I'venoticed in the meetings,
(41:20):
in a one-on-one conversationoutside of a meeting context,
by the way, I've noticed inthe meetings you haven't really
been sharing that much.
Is there a reason why?
Are you feelinguncomfortable to share?
Is there somethingelse going on?
Usually, if you openthat door, most people
will be really honest.
They might say, I don'tknow when to speak up,
(41:41):
or I feel like I'm kind ofjust interrupting people
because these other people inour meeting are always talking,
or by the time I do getthe chance to share,
the topic has changed.
It could also be, I didn'tunderstand the joke, right?
But when we clarify things andwe open up that conversation,
(42:03):
it's like this pressurevalve gets released.
JILL FINLAYSON (42:05):
Did you see that happen with you?
Or has one of yourclients shared a story
where it made themfeel a greater
sense of belonging because ofsomething their coworker did?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (42:15):
Absolutely.
Just being able to have acoworker who checks in with you
or confirms thateveryone's on the same page
can make a worldof a difference.
And we all need that, right?
It's not justneurodivergent people.
We all need that.
One of the things that I'veactually heard my colleagues
experience is that after theydid one of their presentations,
(42:38):
and we do these Neurodiversityin the Workplace awareness
presentations fororganizations, big
and small, all different kinds.
And very often, having thattraining in the workplace
signals to all the employeesthat that organization
is supportive ofneurodiversity just
because they took that step ofacknowledging neurodiversity.
(42:59):
Oftentimes, afterthose trainings,
people will come up to usand share, I feel so seen.
My team doesn't know this,but I actually have autism.
And I haven't sharedthat with them.
JILL FINLAYSON (43:12):
Yeah, especially since this isn't necessarily
a visible disability,you may not know.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA: You may not know. (43:18):
undefined
And maybe those colleaguesalso in that same training
noticed some of the thingswe talked about in regards
to strengths and differences,and maybe acknowledge
that one of mycolleagues on my team
processes informationdifferently than I do.
So maybe instead ofbeing really vague
or making sarcastic comments,I can be more direct
(43:40):
and not speak in metaphors.
JILL FINLAYSON (43:41):
Yeah.
I work with a lotof global audiences.
And there are so many phrasesI catch myself saying that I'm
like, till the cows came home.
Why did I say this?
This makes no sense.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA: I know, I know. (43:51):
undefined
And there's a lot ofthese things that we say.
I'm very exaggerativein how I speak, Jill.
And sometimes, Igot into a habit
of just saying I'mtired all the time
when people ask me how Iwas, just as a personality
trait or something.
And it's so cute becausemy autistic clients
and our coaching callwill hear me say I'm tired
(44:13):
and ask me if I want toreschedule our meeting.
Because they takeinformation that literally.
It's so sweet.
But if I actuallyshare with them
that I've had a really,really awful day,
even though I'm theircoach, they kind of
want to check in with me too.
These are the things that, whenwe create psychological safety,
(44:36):
we create better connection.
When we have betterconnection with our team,
we work better together.
One thing that we like to alwaystalk about in our presentations
that we do withorganizations is that Google
did this Aristotle project,where they basically
looked at teams andthey had one team, which
was all the high-performingpeople in the organization that
(44:58):
were really amazingat what they do,
had all the credentials, topschools, top A-performing team.
And then they had a second teamthat wasn't as well performing
but had highpsychological safety.
And the team withpsychological safety
beat the other teamin every measure.
And we've seen thisin the research.
So it's not so much about thisis just a nice thing to have.
(45:22):
This is about how can we createbetter work environments where
people can bring their bestselves to the workplace, where
people can feel understoodfor their differences
and accepted for who theyare, so that all of us
can have better outcomesin the work that we produce
and in how well we doas an organization.
(45:42):
Organizations need to recognizethat including neurodiversity
in the workplace is notso much of like, oh,
we need to prepare for theneurodivergent people that
are entering the workforce.
It's about recognizing thatneurodivergent people are
already there.
Neurodivergent peopleare already there.
They're probably masking.
(46:04):
They're probably struggling.
They're probably notasking questions.
And they're probably notbringing fresh, new perspectives
to the table because there's anenvironment that isn't creating
psychological safety to do so.
JILL FINLAYSON (46:17):
They're not able to achieve their potential.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (46:19):
Correct.
Having ADHD, I'vebeen in a workplace
where my strengths werelooked at as a nice to have
and an extra thing.
And I've been in workplaceswhere I've had managers
look at those trendsand say, how can I
put those trends to use?
And there's adifference, because when
(46:42):
my strengths arebeing put to use,
and there's a little bit offlexibility and understanding
about the things thatare harder for me,
I'm able to learn the thingsthat are harder for me
and excel at the thingsthat I'm great at,
and really movethe mission forward
in a way that's transformationalnot just for my team,
but for my entire organization.
JILL FINLAYSON (47:03):
Well, it's really interesting
because the more we talk aboutit, this idea of adaptability,
clarity, being able toarticulate your needs,
all of these things are relevantto everyone, as we pointed out.
And they are alreadyin the workplace.
So being able tocreate systems that
allow people tobe more effective
(47:24):
is obviously a top goal.
So as you thinkabout this, if we
look at each one of theseaudiences a little bit
differently, for theneurodivergent person who you
said may be masking,and maybe you
want to say a littlebit about what that is,
how might they unmask and howmight they get the most out
of their career?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (47:43):
Absolutely.
Masking is theneurodivergent person's way
of coping in aneurotypical world.
Masking might beme pretending to be
comfortable withsmall talk or sarcasm,
even though I don'tunderstand it.
I might laugh at a jokethat I don't understand,
for example, that's memasking in that conversation.
(48:04):
So to be able tounmask, first of all,
when there ispsychological safety,
people automatically unmask.
So if, for example, youhave a manager who says,
I want you to be honest with me.
I want you to be direct with me.
Any question is OK.
There's no stupid questions.
The door is open.
I want to be able to help you.
(48:26):
And I want to beable to manage you.
And I want to beable to work with you
and collaborate with youand empower you in the way
that you need.
And anything thatyou say is fair game
because I want this towork for both of us.
Let's say we just startwith that conversation.
And if on your veryfirst one-on-one
with your newemployee, you say that,
(48:46):
and you make it really clearthat we're in this together,
we're a team.
I want to empower you.
I want to make sure thatyour goals are being met
and what you want toaccomplish as an employee
here, as a professionalin this organization.
And how can I helpyou get there?
When you create thatroom, now that person
knows that they can cometo you with questions.
(49:08):
They can say, oh, I reallydon't understand that joke
that you said the other day.
And I did laugh in thatmoment, but to be honest,
I didn't get it.
And that might be notsomething that you
feel comfortable to share ifyou've already not created
some shared norms andexpectations around being
open with each other.
JILL FINLAYSON (49:29):
Yeah, that shared norms
and the unwritten rulescomes back into play here.
If you make people guess,they feel uncomfortable.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (49:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Another thing isneurodivergent people really
benefit from getting context.
So for me to be motivatedto do something,
I need to knowthe larger context
of why I'm doing something.
So my manager willliterally say,
this is what I needyou to do and this
is how this is going toimpact our larger mission.
(49:59):
And this will help us godo this, this, and this,
and hopefully in the futureit will lead to this.
And not a lot of peoplethink that far ahead.
But even if hejust went one level
with that to explain the contextto me, for me as an ADHD person,
it helps me click into that deepfocus and strategizing mode.
(50:19):
And I'm immediately clicked intowhat it is that I need to do
and how I could go about it.
And immediately, I'm able toask him questions about, well, I
understand this, this, and this,but can you explain this to me
before I start?
And him being able toanswer those questions
and be very directand explicit with me
(50:41):
helps me get back on track.
A lot of us also needsome accountability.
So if you are, suppose amanager who assigns a task,
but then there's no check-insbefore something is due,
a lot of my clients willask for the accommodation
of having more check-insso that they know
they're on the right track.
Sometimes, managers will saythey don't have time for that.
(51:02):
So again, do you seehow these things become
barriers for someone who mayneed support in a different way?
But maybe the policies andprocedures of the organization,
or even how someonemanages a team,
can cause challenges forthe neurodivergent person
to really get what it is thatthey need to be successful.
JILL FINLAYSON (51:22):
We've covered a huge amount of ground.
So if you were to have partingwords of wisdom to somebody
who identifies asneurodivergent,
what are your partingwords of wisdom to them?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (51:32):
I would say that the best
thing that any neurodivergentperson can do for themselves
is to learn as much as theycan about their strengths
so that they can leadwith their strengths,
and understand as much as theycan about their differences
as well.
Because it's equally importantto know how your mind,
(51:53):
how your brain worksdifferently so that you can ask
for the things that you need.
And that self-acceptanceand that self-compassion
that we all need to have forourselves can help you be more
empowered to advocate foryourself and to enter the room
and be able to say,this is how I work best.
This is what I need.
(52:14):
I would reallyappreciate more feedback.
I would really appreciatemore check-ins.
Being able to saythose kinds of things
as a neurodivergent personis incredibly empowering.
And I think we are allafraid to ask for help.
We're all afraid to speak up.
We're all afraid to reallybe open and vulnerable.
But sometimes, when you'rein a safe environment,
(52:37):
having that space to share whatit is that you're experiencing,
and sharing your perspectives,cannot just change
the experience for yourself,but it can also empower everyone
else in the team,everyone else in the room,
everyone else in theauditorium, wherever you are,
to think aboutsomething differently.
(52:57):
And we all need that.
We all need that right now.
So I think that if you area neurodivergent person,
reach that placeof self-compassion
and self-acceptance.
Lead with your strengths.
And always, always,always advocate.
Because self-advocacyis not supposed
(53:18):
to be some weird,complicated HR process.
It is about askingfor what we need
so we can show up as ourbest, most authentic person
wherever we are.
JILL FINLAYSON: And your top tips (53:30):
undefined
for the companiesor the leaders?
Obviously,compassionate curiosity
and being responsiveto these requests when
people express what they need.
Is there anything elsethat they should be doing?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (53:44):
Yeah.
I think organizations need to doa lot better job of increasing
awareness about neurodiversityin their workplace,
not just for the people who areentering the workforce, which
many of them areneurodivergent, but also
the neurodivergent people thatare already in your workplace.
There might be people inyour workplace already
(54:05):
who are masking,who are struggling,
who are not disclosingtheir diagnoses,
because they're afraid thatthey will not be accepted
and they will not be includedbecause of their differences.
JILL FINLAYSON (54:18):
So what does the future of work
look like witheverybody included?
How do you see in thenext 5 years, 10 years,
how is the workplacegoing to improve?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (54:27):
I think the workplace needs
to take a really good, hardlook at the kind of experience
that they are providingto their employees,
and to identify ways todo things differently.
Because even if we've donethings a certain way for a very,
very, very long time, we allhave a duty and responsibility
(54:48):
to look at that and saywhere can we do a better job?
And since COVID and all thedifferent transitions we've had,
from being ableto work from home
and going back to the office,and this whole wave of layoffs,
and the beginning ofAI, we're in a lot
of transformationaltimes right now.
And I think what everyorganization needs to focus on
(55:11):
is getting ahead ofall of this change
and really doing the reallyintentional, important work
of improving thepsychological safety
within their organizations.
If they don't, they'rejust going to fall behind.
And people today wantto work in organizations
where they do feelincluded and accepted
(55:33):
and where they dofeel belonging.
And regardless of what's goingon in the rest of society,
diversity is here.
It's not going anywhere.
JILL FINLAYSON: And what makes you (55:42):
undefined
optimistic about thefuture for neurodivergence?
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA: I think what makes (55:47):
undefined
me optimistic aboutthe future in terms
of neurodivergent peoplein the workplace is
that the awareness hasincreased a lot over the years.
There's a lot morepeople talking
about neurodiversity today thanthey were even two years ago,
five years ago.
And that's a huge change.
There's a lot ofyoung people who
(56:08):
are not being afraid to advocatefor what it is that they need.
And there's a lot ofneurodivergent people
who are being reallyempowered in that identity,
rather than feelingshame from it
or other negativefeelings attached to that.
And that's really important forus as a society to celebrate.
We need to celebratepeople being
(56:29):
open about theirneurodivergence,
because we live in a worldwhere all of our perspectives
are needed.
That is what makes thisdiversity the diversity
that it is.
And it is beautifulbecause we all
have different perspectivesthat we bring to the table.
And that's what moves us forwardas a species, in my opinion.
JILL FINLAYSON (56:50):
Thank you so much for joining us today.
Thank you for being part ofthis change and awareness.
And thank you for sharing yourexperience and your insights
on how people can reallymake this a reality
and really embrace and unleashall of this amazing potential.
KHUSHBOO CHABRIA (57:06):
Thank you so much, Jill.
I really appreciate you.
JILL FINLAYSON (57:09):
Thank you so much, Khushboo.
And with that, I hopeyou enjoyed this latest
in a long series ofpodcasts that we'll be
sending your way every month.
Please share withfriends and colleagues
who may be interested in takingthis Future of Work journey
with us.
And make sure to check outextension.berkeley.edu to find
a variety of coursesto help you thrive
in this new working landscape.
(57:30):
And to see what's comingup at EDGE in Tech,
go ahead and visitedge.berkeley.edu.
Thanks so much forlistening, and we'll
be back next month to talk aboutorganizational communication
strategies to succeed.
The Future of Work podcastis hosted by Jill Finlayson,
produced by Sarah Benzuly, andedited by Matt Dipietro, Natalie
Newman, and Alicia Liao.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(57:52):
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com