April 2, 2024 • 46 mins
Demand for mental health benefits has grown. In a 2023 NPR article, psychologists say they can't meet the growing demand for mental health care—whether it’s not having enough open positions or three-month-long waitlists. There is a growing market for apps to fill the gaps, as well as platforms that connect people with licensed therapists or a number of AI-powered solutions that emulate a therapist. All this has an impact on workers and the workplace. And as we heard from Daniel Zhao at GlassDoor in our earlier episode, newer generations of employees are expecting employers to address these needs with benefits. Let’s talk about what employees are seeking from companies and how companies are responding.
Learn more about UC Berkeley Extension @https://bit.ly/4bMyTls
Read this episode's transcript @https://bit.ly/3U0uaVX
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(00:02):
SYLVIA DOSS (00:05):
70% of the employers
rank mental healthand substance use
disorder servicesas their number
two emerging area of concern.
Their focus is actually turningto virtual mental health
providers.
There is a reallydeep connection
between work, our mentalhealth, our overall health.
(00:27):
These kind ofthings go together.
JILL FINLAYSON: Welcome to The Future (00:31):
undefined
of Work podcast with BerkeleyExtension and the EDGE in Tech
initiative at theUniversity of California,
focused on expanding diversityand gender equity in tech.
EDGE in Tech is partof CITRIS, the Center
for IT Research in theInterest of Society
and the Banatao Institute.
UC Berkeley Extension isthe continuing education arm
of the University ofCalifornia at Berkeley.
(00:53):
Demand for mental healthbenefits has grown.
Per a 2023 NPR articletitled, "Psychologists
Say They Can't Meet the GrowingDemand for Mental Health Care,"
they quoted overhalf said they had
no openings for new patients.
Among those who kept waitlists, the average wait times
were three months or longer.
And nearly 40% said their waitlist had grown in the past year.
(01:16):
There is a growingmarket for apps
as well to fill the gaps,including relaxation
apps for meditationor deep breathing,
like Calm andHeadspace, as well as
platforms that connect peoplewith licensed therapists,
like BetterHelp.
And there's even a growingnumber of AI-powered solutions
that emulate a therapist,including Woebot Health, Limbic,
and Wysa.
(01:36):
All this has an impact onworkers and the workplace.
Unsurprisingly, some studiesare showing poor mental health,
depression, anxietyis associated
with lost productivity throughabsenteeism and presenteeism.
And as we heard fromDaniel Zhao at Glassdoor
in our earlier podcast, newergenerations of employees
are expecting employersto address these needs
(01:58):
with benefits.
So let's talk about whatemployees are seeking
from companies and how companiesare responding to discuss
this important topic.
We're delighted tospeak with Sylvia Doss.
Sylvia is a strategicadvisor and educator
with 15-plus years of experiencedesigning solutions for better
health and wellbeing in workenvironments and communities
that drive business outcomes.
(02:19):
She brings that experienceto Sable Advisory Services,
an advisory firm she foundedwith her colleagues in 2020.
Sable Advisory Serviceswas created in response
to the emerginguncertainty related
to the intersection ofhealth, environment, and work.
She partners with companiesto identify social risks
and opportunities and todevelop tailored solutions that
(02:42):
promote positive social impactand enhance long-term business
performance.
Her work in this spaceexpands into her community
as a board committee memberfor the Healing Well,
a nonprofit in San Francisco'sTenderloin neighborhood, where
she fosters advancing acommunity of wellness,
empowerment,liberation, and love.
Welcome, Sylvia.
SYLVIA DOSS (03:02):
Thank you, Jill.
JILL FINLAYSON (03:03):
It's so great to have you here,
and this is such a timely topic.
Those stats that I readare really concerning,
and we also hear a lot aboutburnout and exhaustion in work.
So can you tell us a littlebit about what you do
and how you're seeing thisneed for mental health grow?
SYLVIA DOSS (03:22):
So what I do with Sable Advisory is we
really look at thewhole environment.
And a lot of companies areconcerned about sustainability,
and they'reconcerned about ESG--
Environmental, Social,and Governance.
And we just work withthem to think about,
how does that reallyimpact their employees?
(03:42):
And how does it impacttheir relationship,
not just with theiremployees, but their consumers
and with their communities?
And so it often comes upthat with our employees,
how are we reallysupporting them?
And yeah, there'sthe health aspect,
but there's this mentalhealth aspect that
(04:03):
connects so strongly withit and is just largely,
I wouldn't sayignored, but it's kind
of like the stepchildof health, I guess,
is maybe how I couldthink about it.
And so we want to helporganizations think about not
just what programs are needed.
You know, historically, I'veworked for organizations
(04:25):
where it's all about programs.
But also, how does thatfit into the organization?
How does that fit intothe work that people do?
And how does that actuallybetter and improve outcomes
for the organizations,outcomes for the people,
outcomes for the community?
JILL FINLAYSON (04:42):
So when you talk about these programs,
tell me a little bit more aboutthe different types of programs
that are out there andwhere they fall short
from this holistic view.
SYLVIA DOSS (04:51):
So for years, I've worked with organizations where
we have mental health services.
And we'll have, say, a mentalhealth panel of therapists.
So just like your doctor, yougo in, you find a therapist,
you make an appointment,and you go and see them.
That actually hasexpanded, particularly
through the pandemic,to more virtual care.
So now you cansee your therapist
(05:13):
via Zoom, which I personallythink is actually a great thing.
I think it increasesaccessibility greatly.
The other ways thatI see it happen is--
and you mentioned somethings, Calm, Headspace,
but also versions of that,which is a combination of some
of that type of therapy,like CBT therapy,
(05:35):
but with a therapist in thebackground, a therapist more
assigned to groupsof people that
assigned to individual people.
And then I would say, the lastthing that I see with employers
are the apps whereit's totally AI-driven.
My concern is withintake, really.
(05:57):
And do people knowwhere they are mentally?
Do they know whattheir needs are?
And where's the intake tomake sure we're getting people
to the right places?
JILL FINLAYSON (06:06):
Yeah.
I think that's reallyimportant to think about--
what people are feeling, whenthey are seeking these services,
what are their needs?
And are they beingalmost a concierge
to find the right place to startfor where their needs are today?
So you've talked toa lot of companies.
How are they defininghealth and wellness?
(06:27):
You said mental healthwas the stepchild.
So what's the larger spherethat all of the mental health
fits into?
SYLVIA DOSS (06:34):
Health and benefits.
It's looking at, what arethe top drivers of health?
Where are we spendingour money largely?
There was something the BusinessGroup on Health-- actually,
they ran a survey atthe end of last year.
70% of the employers rankedmental health and substance use
disorder servicesas their number
(06:55):
two emerging area of concern.
And their focus is actuallyturning to virtual mental health
providers.
I personally thinkthat what gets missed--
and this is really a lot ofwork we start thinking about
with Sable Advisory--
is there is a really deepconnection between work,
(07:17):
our mental health,our overall health.
These kind ofthings go together.
And I remember whenI was a kid, now,
my parents, they worked 9:00to 5:00, and they came home,
and we had dinner every night.
And they didn't work weekends.
And Sundays, we spenttime with family.
And I didn't sense thatthere was this concern
over work-life balance.
(07:39):
I feel like now we're justtrying to get that back,
just having time to rest.
And so if you don't have enoughof that, job satisfaction,
work stress--
all of those things contributeto our mental stress.
I began studying particularlyduring the pandemic
is, what are someof the things that
(07:59):
are really challenging people?
Because I think we saw mentalhealth just kind of blow up.
And I just did asimple calculation.
If I have a nice job,I work 40 hours a week,
I don't have a hugecommute, how much of my time
over a seven-day workweekactually is spent on work
(08:20):
and work-related-- gettingto work, getting from work?
And it's abouthalf of that time.
And so it justmakes sense to me.
You can't spend half ofyour time doing something
and it doesn't impact you.
JILL FINLAYSON (08:32):
Absolutely.
Well, I think when we lookat what companies are doing,
it's exciting to see thatthey are prioritizing this,
that this is an area ofemerging concern for them.
So as they look at theneeds that are growing,
they're also, of course,pressed with financial limits
on the other side.
(08:53):
So how do youcoach the companies
to take this more seriously?
SYLVIA DOSS (08:58):
I actually don't think that they cannot take it
seriously.
There's differentways to actually look
at how we start to supportpeople in mental health.
There's a top-down approach, andthere's a bottom-up approach.
And the employer-- one thingis, yeah, you get a program.
You have a program that'saccessible for people.
(09:20):
But the other thingis not contributing
to people's poor mental health.
And to me, thatmeans having managers
who can actually manage people.
And manage people isn'tjust project management.
It's actually beingable to talk to people,
understand what'sgoing on with people,
(09:41):
be able to have thoseconversations when it's needed,
checking in with peoplebefore meetings, just
having that type of culture.
And I actuallybelieve that things
can go pretty far when you havea culture that starts to say,
hey, our mental healthis really important.
And that in itself balanceoff a lot of costs.
(10:03):
It balances off the cost andthe usage of the programs,
and it increases productivity.
I mean, we know there'sstudies and data--
this isn't just talk--
that show that you'remore productive when
you're having a great day.
JILL FINLAYSON (10:19):
Absolutely.
So how do we givemanagers these skills
to support their employees?
And how do we build theculture that promotes wellness?
SYLVIA DOSS (10:30):
The way organizations are typically set
up, things are really siloed.
You have your organizationaldevelopment people,
you have yourbenefits people, you
might have your wellbeingpeople, your safety,
your workers' comp.
I actually think, numberone, the basic infrastructure
needs to be revamped becauseall of this is working together,
(10:54):
and it's not assimple as just, OK,
we're going to get togetheronce a month and talk about it.
It's almost like itneeds to be revamped.
That's one of the mainthings that can happen.
And use data, findways to use data,
and understand theintersectionalities
(11:15):
of people and the population.
I would say, you maylook at recruiters,
and recruiters are thinkingabout the population one way,
and health people over here arethinking about the population
a different way.
But we really need tounderstand our population.
And I'm talking aboutmore than what kind
of diseases or injuries theyhave, more than age, and gender,
(11:40):
and how many kids they havecovered under the plan.
We need to understand ethnicity.
We need to understandsexual orientation.
We need to understand commutetimes if they're commuting in.
We really need to takesome time and understand
who our people are.
JILL FINLAYSON (11:58):
That's a great way to break it down
and to really thinkabout the role
that diversity, equity,and inclusion can
play in these mental healthchallenges and the needed
supports.
So some of the thingsthat companies do
are they have employeeresource groups,
but what do you see as neededwhen we start to consider
all of thosedifferent populations
(12:19):
that we have in the workplace?
SYLVIA DOSS (12:21):
Well, employee resource groups--
and you mentionedthat, but I don't
want to undermine thatbecause that is actually
a grassroots wayto start connecting
all these differentintersectionalities of people
and working with those groupsand having them support
a broader corporate strategyand initiative of we
(12:43):
want to have healthy people--
that means mental andthat means physical--
I think is a great way to getthem involved in saying, well,
this is what our people need.
This is what we need.
JILL FINLAYSON (12:53):
So if we want to provide
needed supports forspecific intersections
that are out there,are there other things
we can do to recognizethat not everyone is
having the same experience?
SYLVIA DOSS (13:07):
So this is where we get
down to the differentprograms available.
And with mental health--
and I think a lot of peopleactually feel this way.
When it comes to amental health provider,
me as a Black woman, my age,living in a part of the world
I live in, I'mlooking for someone
who understands who I am, whohas a similar experience to me.
(13:30):
I had a friend once,and she was a therapist.
And she focused on working withfirst-generation South Indian
women of a certain age, andthat was very, very specific.
But that's what sherelated to, and that's
who she could talk to and help.
And she understood alot of the background.
So I believe thatorganizations need
(13:52):
to take into account thatyou can't just throw out
a general panel of providerswithout knowing what's
the diversity, race, ethnicity,gender, sexual orientation, how
accessible they are.
And one thing I don'twant to leave out
is also parents and their kids.
(14:14):
So having kids under 18--
it's a significantly growingarea for mental health support.
And I just don't see that enoughfocus is really given to that.
JILL FINLAYSON (14:27):
It's still coming up a lot, the sandwich
generation, where theyhave the kids in school,
but they also are dealing withaging parents as well, which
can be another huge stressor.
SYLVIA DOSS (14:37):
Yeah.
And it's interesting youmentioned that because I
was just thinkingtoday, when you
go to search for amental health provider,
the way they're titledactually doesn't align,
I think, with whata lot of people
are looking for as an industry,the mental health profession,
could actually fix.
There's a whole lot ofmarriage and family.
(15:00):
And I was like, well, I don'tneed a marriage therapist,
but just not understandingwhat falls under that category.
I just think that theyalso could do some work.
And to your point ofthe sandwich generation,
you're a caregiver.
You could use some support,probably a different type
of therapist than someone whois working with new parents
(15:21):
as an example.
JILL FINLAYSON (15:23):
Absolutely.
Stressors come fromdifferent sides.
So I see three elementsto this, and I'd
like to hear your thoughtson these different elements.
So one is, how doyou manage stressors
that come from insidethe workplace--
work-related stress,that work-life balance
that you talked about?
Then there's the familyrelationship stresses.
(15:43):
But there's anotherlevel, which is the world.
We're in a very divisivetime in our country.
The politics arevery challenging,
and there's a lot of traumainduced just by the news.
So we're gettingit from all sides.
And so as we think about thecompany and their opportunity
to be supportive, theyhave to look at all
(16:06):
three of those buckets.
SYLVIA DOSS (16:08):
Absolutely.
Something else standsout during the pandemic
is just having environments thatI think of as a safe workplace.
And to me, a safeworkplace means not just
I'm safe physically, butI'm also safe mentally.
I know I'm going to go in,I'm not going to be harassed.
(16:29):
I know I'm going tobe respected there.
I think a lot goes into justthe culture of the workplace,
just having your basichealth essentials,
being able to have accessto programs and providers,
and the coupleother areas, which
was crisis support andenvironmental essentials
is what I named it.
It can't be ourpersonal crisis support.
(16:51):
You have a family issue.
It could be a broadercrisis support, which
is what's going on inthe world right now,
and the environmentalessentials.
So how do we supportpeople environmentally?
But organizationshave to realize
that all this is going on forpeople, which is why we're even
having this conversation becauseif all this wasn't going on,
(17:12):
this probablywouldn't be at the top
of a lot of ourconversations and concerns.
I think that just speaksto, what kind of culture
do you want ofyour organization?
And how do you go aboutbuilding that and building it
from the top downand the bottom up?
You're going tohave to hold people
accountable and particularly,I'd say managers accountable.
(17:37):
And you're going to have toreally get some empathy going
through that organization.
I think empathy goes a longway to supporting people when
there's challenges they'rehaving inside the workplace,
or with the family,or just in the world.
JILL FINLAYSON (17:53):
Yeah.
You mentioned environmentally.
Say a little bitmore about that.
SYLVIA DOSS (17:58):
Yeah.
You know, I have an environmentjust in the community I'm in.
And I have an environmentin being here in California
or being in San Francisco.
And I also have an environmentbeing in the US and these world
issues.
There's this old-schoolmindset that hangs out there
and it says, when you cometo work, you come to work,
(18:19):
and all that stuff should beoff to the side somewhere.
And I think that still filtersthrough work environments.
And it's just notthe way things work.
And frankly, it never did.
And so I think ofenvironments, we just
have to be sensitivethat things go on.
(18:40):
I'll give you an example.
So years ago, there was ashooting of a Black church.
And for me to go into work andno one says anything about it,
it's like, that'simpacting my environment.
JILL FINLAYSON (18:55):
So why do you think
it's so difficult to givepeople the health services,
like the therapist?
Why are the weights so long?
And do you see any outlookon the horizon that
says that's going to improve?
SYLVIA DOSS (19:08):
Years ago, particularly when
I first moved tothe Bay Area and I
was working for an insurancecompany, part of my role
was in going out and attractingproviders and setting up
contracts with providers groups.
I've been thinking about thatwith mental health providers.
And it may come downto pay, frankly--
(19:29):
pay and finding waysto actually get people
through the educationalsystem focus on therapists.
So I believe that there'sa shortage of therapists,
particularly whenyou start to look
at all the differentintersectionalities of people.
But I don't believe thatthe industry has really
put forth a roadmap and apathway to increase that.
(19:52):
And instead, the roadis going toward apps.
JILL FINLAYSON (19:58):
Right.
So if you can't afford oryou can't get a therapist,
is an app better than nothing?
SYLVIA DOSS (20:05):
I actually think an app probably
is better than nothing.
I've used a couple ofmeditation apps for years,
and I'd say it's betterthan nothing, for sure.
JILL FINLAYSON (20:16):
How do we get where we need to be faster?
And maybe this isone of those ways.
SYLVIA DOSS (20:22):
Yeah, perhaps so.
JILL FINLAYSON: Yeah, because we do (20:23):
undefined
have to train a new generation.
And I think this isa question of this
is one of those jobs thatis perhaps both AI-tolerant
but also being challenged by AI.
SYLVIA DOSS (20:35):
Yeah.
I think it's really interesting.
If you ever talk to therapistsabout AI and what they do,
there's certainly a difference.
What may be achallenge for these AI
mental health apps isthe fact that it's AI.
And do people trust it?
Do people feel likethey're being heard?
(20:57):
[LAUGHS] I think thatwill be a challenge.
And I wonder, whenyou know that it's AI,
does it move youfurther away from really
being able to ever havepeople relationships?
JILL FINLAYSON (21:12):
I'm glad you brought that up.
I think there havebeen some studies that
have said that peopleknowing it's AI
doesn't affect theirability to use the apps.
They're OK withthat, and it's still
a place where they canexpress themselves.
But I think you're bringingup another big issue that's
another cause of mental healthissues in the United States.
So I don't know how muchyou can say about this,
(21:32):
but the loneliness epidemic.
We're more connectedthan ever before,
but people feel moreisolated than ever before
and feel like they can't buildthose social relationships.
SYLVIA DOSS (21:43):
What I can I tell you about loneliness is just
this past week--
I'm familiar with Bell Hooks.
And in her book, AllAbout Love, there
was some stuff inthere about loneliness.
And this is from theearly '90s, I think--
loneliness reallybecoming a problem.
I'm probably not anexpert in loneliness.
(22:05):
I can't really put myfinger on what it is,
but I do know that ifI'm having a hard time
and I can get togetherwith my girlfriend,
even just to talk abouthaving a hard time,
it makes a significantdifference.
And if people don't havethose types of relationships,
who do you bounce off orvent when you have a bad day,
(22:29):
or when you're strugglingwith a family issue,
or when someonepasses, or you just
don't have thosepeople in your life
who are going tolook out for you?
JILL FINLAYSON (22:40):
Yeah.
And I think data also saysthat you live longer--
your health spanand your life span
is longer if youmaintain social ties.
That's one of themetrics they can measure.
So it's a questionof, how do we help
people bridge someof those human gaps
and not just havethe friends at work?
(23:00):
Because is theworkplace your family?
That discussion has gone bothways, where people are like,
it's great that it's family;no, it's bad that it's family.
It's work.
[LAUGHTER]
SYLVIA DOSS (23:14):
Yeah.
Well, I could go a coupleof ways on a workplace.
I have worked forgroups with people
who were pretty closeto family, and I
have worked for groups wherepeople are not at all family.
I think it just depends on howwell you connect with people.
I mean, oftentimes, when you'rein workplaces where, people, you
feel that close tothem, there's going
(23:34):
to be a couple of people you'llprobably keep up with forever.
And really, it's notnecessarily family as much
as it is, I think, friendship.
JILL FINLAYSON (23:42):
Absolutely.
So with work being moreporous, being more 24/7,
having these emails goall days, all times,
some of the things thatI've heard people talk about
is put at the bottomof your email,
my hours may notmatch your hours.
Please don't feelobligated to reply if it's
outside your work hours.
(24:03):
But what are someof the other things
that companies shouldencourage or employees
should do to protect themselvesfrom this 24/7 being on?
SYLVIA DOSS (24:12):
I will tell you, Jill, years ago, I
had a manager, she wouldget into a work conversation
on a Saturday night.
So you're at home on Saturdaynight, the phone rings,
and she what the hellthis work conversation.
And I hadn't reported directlyto her. but when I was about to,
(24:34):
someone said, don'teven start that.
Just don't be available.
So it takes somestrength, especially when
you're young in your career, tonot be available certain times.
And this is whereI think self-esteem
comes in-- yourself-esteem, your self-love.
You don't let someone elsetake that away from you.
(24:56):
And I have talked topeople on weekends.
I've talked to peoplewhen I was sick.
But the understandingis that's not the norm.
We have a crisis here.
I'm going to behere to help you.
But the norm isnot that we're just
going to have these randomconversations that we can have
on Monday on a Saturday night.
(25:18):
I advise young employers,when you go into a workplace,
you have to figure out if itis really the culture for you.
But it doesn't meanthat you're the problem.
It may just not be afit, or they may actually
be a problem on top of that.
The 24/7 and puttingthings on your email,
you have to just getinto shutting down.
(25:40):
But it does-- it takes a littlebit of strength, I think,
to do that workingwith a company where
people around the clock.
JILL FINLAYSON (25:49):
And that's where I think leadership does matter
because as newgraduates, new employees,
they're not going to knowhow to set those boundaries,
so it really does comedown to the leadership
to encourage thosepractices and walk the walk.
SYLVIA DOSS (26:02):
Yeah.
Almost like havingno-email times.
JILL FINLAYSON (26:05):
Exactly.
SYLVIA DOSS (26:07):
And you get in trouble
for sending emails at10 o'clock at night.
[LAUGHS]
JILL FINLAYSON (26:10):
Yeah.
And I was thinking moreabout the remote work.
So we talked about the mentalcost of having a long commute.
So we have now proof thatflexible work, remote work
works.
So a lot of peopleare doing that.
And disproportionately,women, people
of color, people who live a longdistance from their workplace
are especiallybenefiting from this.
(26:31):
But there's a flipside to this as well.
If you are remote and notphysically in the workplace,
how do you avoid beingleft out, feeling isolated,
or even a littleparanoid, like what's
going on when I'm not there?
SYLVIA DOSS (26:46):
Well, this is actually
something I've thoughtabout really a lot,
coming up through aworkplace that was present.
I was with them all day.
And you think about thingsthat go on in the workplace.
There was the studythat what people
miss not being in a workplace.
And at first, it wasthis thought, oh, I'm
going to miss people.
(27:06):
But they're notmissing the people.
They're seeing the peopleon Zoom and talking to them.
But they miss thingslike visibility,
being able to run intothat senior executive,
or run into someone inthat other department
that you might beinterested in working in.
Culture is an issue,learning opportunities,
(27:27):
and even having a structuredday back to the 24/7.
I believe that it takesthe organization--
and this is where youstart to bring together
mental health, organizationaldevelopment, the health
people, everybody together.
How do you build thisvirtual company, basically?
(27:50):
And what I find sointeresting, Jill,
is there used to be agroup that I would follow.
They would have aconference every year,
and they talkedabout remote work.
And this is before the pandemic.
So the people who wereconnected with that
were people who hadopted for remote work.
They were living all over theworld, doing all kinds of stuff,
(28:12):
doing remote work.
That group pretty muchwent out of business
because now the people who arein this remote-work situation,
it's new to them.
They didn't opt for it.
It came upon them,just the difference.
I don't know if Icould really say
how do you create this completevirtual company where I can get
(28:36):
to know the people and learnand development because that's
an area I'm interested in.
I'm not sure.
But unless that'shappening, there
is no place for an employee togo except for another company.
JILL FINLAYSON (28:50):
It's quite challenging,
and it's a balancing act becauseit's partially the employee's
responsibility to makesure that they maintain
those relationshipsand hooked in,
but it's also thecompany's responsibility
to make sure theinfrastructure is there,
that people aren'tunintentionally left out
of meetings or invites.
So there's a proactivenesson both sides.
SYLVIA DOSS (29:10):
Right.
I wonder if employees coming incould have some kind of mentor
who runs interference for them.
JILL FINLAYSON (29:16):
Yeah.
I think mentorsare a huge resource
for understandingthe unwritten rules
and get the lay of the land.
SYLVIA DOSS (29:25):
Exactly, exactly.
JILL FINLAYSON: Another thing that (29:27):
undefined
really comes up when you thinkabout mental health is vacation.
Let's take a vacation.
Let's go breathe, reallyseparate ourselves from work,
and have a vacation.
Are people taking vacation?
SYLVIA DOSS (29:42):
I think it depends.
I think it dependson your organization.
I think more traditionalorganizations,
there's still vacations.
But there's a couple ofchallenges with vacation.
And one is being OK with thatrespond to an email 10 o'clock.
(30:02):
Now you're not going to respondto an email for a week or two.
Are you going to do that?
What I used to find issomeone went on vacation,
you didn't email them.
You just kept everythinguntil they came back.
Unless they were takinga super long vacation,
everything could just wait.
The other issue I thinkwith vacation is--
I mean, the US isn't reallybig on days off to begin with,
(30:23):
and the issue ofunlimited vacation,
and people not understanding it.
And me, having been in thebenefits and the health care
realm, it's like, how doyou unlimited vacation?
What happens-- you know,I'm asking all the questions
and find out that unlimitedvacation technically
means you don't have avacation plan, which means
(30:45):
that you don't accrue vacation.
So I need a week off, and I havea manager who says, OK, yeah,
you can take a weekoff-- not this week.
It'd have to be next week.
I could also havea manager who says,
I can't afford for you totake a week off right now.
And it also defaults tothe culture of the company.
(31:07):
So now that two weeks that Ihad accrued under one company,
under my unlimited vacationplan, I didn't accrue it,
so maybe just don'tget to take it.
JILL FINLAYSON: It's not a commodity (31:21):
undefined
that you can say, ooh, I haveto take it or it'll go away.
SYLVIA DOSS (31:26):
Right.
It's made-up.
And I think I'vementioned I feel
like it's a scambecause I mean, who
wouldn't want realunlimited vacation?
But if it's going to be up to mymanager to say, you can take it,
you can't take it,and then people
start to feel maybe Ishouldn't be taking vacation
(31:47):
because everybody hereonly takes two weeks.
And so I want to dothis three-week thing,
but I shouldn't.
It used to be a benefit.
The longer you stay, themore vacation you get.
That was a win-win.
But it really dependson the culture.
I've seen it play outin companies that way.
Companies withunlimited vacation--
sometime, people happen to bein companies and with groups
(32:10):
within those companieswhere they can actually
benefit from that.
And then other ones,it's like, oh, no,
nobody takes a vacation here.
JILL FINLAYSON: I like your point (32:18):
undefined
that it really comesback to, again, defaults
to the culture of the company.
And so if an individualdoes want to take vacation,
are people actually justtaking vacation days?
Or are they feeling like theyjust have too much to do?
Or are they continuing towork when they're on vacation?
What are you seeing?
SYLVIA DOSS (32:38):
I see that people work a lot on vacation.
At least, they'llcheck their email.
Oh, I'm just going to checkmy email in the morning.
Well, [LAUGHS] now you'reworking on vacation.
I mean, the benefitof vacation is
to be able to step awayfrom this day-to-day, half
of your time each weekbeing associated with work.
(32:59):
It allows you to actuallystep away from that
and focus on other things.
It allows you to do somethingcreative, do something fun,
take some walks in the park, govisit some family or friends.
It allows you tojust focus on that.
And just focusingon that, we know
it's really relaxing toour mind, to our brain,
(33:21):
to our bodies.
And when we run people 24/7basically 365 days a year,
it's just not healthy.
JILL FINLAYSON (33:32):
Absolutely.
And I think that point thatyou just made about creativity,
you come back able tohave a better perspective.
You can see things thatmaybe you weren't missing
because you were in the weeds.
So I do think there'sa lot of benefits
to getting a real break.
SYLVIA DOSS (33:47):
Absolutely.
JILL FINLAYSON (33:48):
So we talked a little bit
about all the differentaspects of people's lives
where stress comes in.
One of the major thingsthat we talk about
is a major event insomeone's life-- a divorce,
a loss, the grieving process.
That's a very individualexperience as well.
So what do you seeas company policies?
And how can we do a betterjob of supporting people
(34:10):
when they're in thatmoment of crisis?
SYLVIA DOSS (34:13):
Well, first off, I think part of it
is having managers thatunderstand that this employee is
having a personal crisis.
It's not their personal crisis.
It's my employee'spersonal crisis
because sometimesI think managers
can think, well, OK, that'snot that big of a deal you
need to get over it.
And this is the empathy andthe compassion part of it.
(34:36):
But I think somethingthat's difficult
about it is thatif I'm grieving,
I can grieve for months.
Do I not work for months?
But I do believethat employers need
to find a way to have those kindof conversations with employees.
Three days bereavementis just deplorable.
(34:58):
So what I was 27,my mother passed.
And we had threedays bereavement.
And I took a week.
Nobody said anything about it.
That week was nothing.
That week was nothing in that.
And I just wish that maybe Iwould have had a manager who
(35:23):
even would have said, I can'tjust have you off for months
necessarily unless you really doneed to take a personal leave,
but would have supported me inmaybe taking extra days here
and there, supported me ingetting some mental health
support.
Don't give me thebiggest project ever
(35:43):
and hold my feet to the fire.
When somebody is going throughsomething, we care about them.
We looked out for them,make sure they're eating.
JILL FINLAYSON (35:51):
A little kindness goes a long way.
SYLVIA DOSS (35:54):
Yeah.
And I think for thoseparticular issues--
grieving, divorces--you have to realize
that is significant for people.
JILL FINLAYSON (36:03):
This is the most intergenerational workforce
that we've ever had.
We've got a lot ofdifferent groups of people.
Are you seeing anydifferences in regard
to willingness to talkabout mental health
needs amongst thesedifferent generations
and what they expect?
SYLVIA DOSS (36:18):
Yeah, yeah.
I think the youngergeneration is much more open
to talking about mental health.
It's just much morecommon for them.
To that point, I'm not sure thatthey act on it in the best way.
(36:38):
And what I mean by thatis for me to say, hey,
I have a therapistor whatever, and I'm
talking to a youngerperson, they're like, OK,
it's no big deal.
And they may say, oh, I need totake care of my mental health.
But to actuallygo to a therapist,
actually take thesteps to do it,
I'm not convinced thatthey're doing that
(36:59):
at a significantly greaterrate than prior generations.
And part of that maybe digital solutions.
Yeah, it may be yourCalms, and your Headspace,
and your Insight timers,and other things like that.
But I do think that they'remore open to it, for sure.
JILL FINLAYSON (37:21):
Is there still a stigma around mental health
and talking about mental health?
Or do you thinkthat has improved?
SYLVIA DOSS (37:28):
I think it's improved,
but I still believe it'sa stigma because I think
as you go on with differentgenerations in the workplace,
you get to older generations,I think there still
is a stigma aboutmental health and what's
going on with that person.
And is this work toohard for them now?
(37:49):
The concern withwork before was,
if have a mental health issue,they think I can't do the work.
And let's say you have ayounger person who is constantly
seeing their therapist, how dothe managers think about that?
I could go probably to physicaltherapy forever for a knee,
and it wouldn't bea concern, right?
(38:12):
But if I have to go to mytherapist, I don't know.
JILL FINLAYSON (38:16):
That's an interesting comparison
of what's acceptable andwhat they start to question.
SYLVIA DOSS (38:21):
Yeah.
So I think there'ssome of that there.
I don't think it's gone at all.
JILL FINLAYSON: Kind of wrapping up (38:26):
undefined
on two fronts, let's talk aboutwhat companies and leaders need
to do.
What red flags shouldthey be watching for?
And how can they bettersupport their employees?
SYLVIA DOSS (38:38):
Employers really need to pay attention to,
number one, is who'sin your workforce?
And don't have thatjust creep up on you.
Know who's there.
Know rates that people arecoming, and going, retiring,
or just quitting.
Understand the flowof your workforce.
(38:58):
Understand what yourprimary health concerns are
and ask about it fromdifferent angles.
I'd probably challengeevery employer,
if you have employeeresource groups,
you should be interviewingthem-- every one of them--
and get their feedback on it.
Is the company doingenough around health,
(39:20):
and mental health,and supporting you?
And I know that the challengegoing out and asking employees
is now you have to dosomething about it.
But you should want todo something about it.
So I think that that'sfirst red flags.
You should know thatso that you know what's
going on with your business.
I think some strategies--
(39:42):
and it goes along withthat-- is just making sure
that you evenunderstand intersections
and that you arevaluing intersections.
So I'm a woman of a certainage, I'm a Black woman,
I have a certain education,I live with a certain place.
All those things matter.
And for strategies, onething is do a bottom-up
(40:04):
and top-down strategy.
And a really easybottom-up strategy
is do some managertraining, and at least
have your managers at thebeginning of every meeting
ask people how they're doing.
Give them a scale, 1 to5, red, yellow, green,
(40:26):
where are you today?
And use that information toinform how you run that meeting.
When I worked for Chevron,a very safety-focused
organization, every meetingstarted with a safety moment--
every one.
When we have vendors come in,they bring their safety moment
(40:47):
for us to start to meeting with.
There's stuff I donow that's still very
safety-focused because of that.
And so just start to intertwinethat into your own team.
That's what I wouldsay for employers.
JILL FINLAYSON (41:01):
A little bit about how you run your meetings
how you interactwith people, just
having that sense ofkeeping a check-in
and understandingwhere people are at.
SYLVIA DOSS (41:10):
Yeah, exactly.
JILL FINLAYSON (41:12):
So let's talk about the individual-- so
the individual employee.
What are some redflags they should
be watching for for themselvesin terms of how they're doing
in the workplace and beyond?
And what are some strategiesfor taking advantage of what
your company has to offer?
But also, what areother things that you
can do if your company maybeisn't offering as many benefits
(41:32):
as they could?
SYLVIA DOSS (41:33):
So I do think that individuals
do need to take responsibility.
And we need to takeresponsibility for ourselves
and the impact it has notjust on us, but our families,
the people around us.
I think a thingthat is challenging
is knowing when do you do that.
When do you have a challenge?
When are youapproaching burnout?
(41:54):
And we don't always knowthat until we hit that wall.
So practicing healthypractices upfront--
this is where you get to thiswellness and wellbeing, right?
It helps us to know thatsomething is getting out
of sorts--
things like creativityand gaining creativity
(42:16):
from being on vacation, butalso doing something creative
in your life--
meditation, exercise,start checking your sleep.
I mean, I was nevergood with sleep.
It took me over a year oftracking my sleep before I could
actually get into a patternof, OK, now I know I'm rested,
(42:36):
I'm not rested.
And even just beingin nature and just
starting to incorporatesomething every week, put it
in the calendarbecause it supports us,
but it also starts to say,God, I'm so exhausted.
And you start torealize, I'm super
exhausted because thisjob is wearing me out.
And then little things--
check on people around you.
(42:58):
And I think we go through andwe say, hey, how are you doing?
But if you know someone iscoming back from a divorce,
check up on them.
See if they want togo grab lunch, coffee,
just little stuff, really,to keep us connected
and take responsibility for us
And as far as mentalhealth, if you
have a company that'snot providing services,
(43:19):
there ways to getmental health support.
There are a lot ofproviders of therapists
who work on a sliding scale.
You can Google providers in yourarea, and you can look them up.
And some of them they will tellyou, I work on a sliding scale.
So if you can'tafford a full bill,
(43:41):
maybe you can afforda partial bill.
JILL FINLAYSON (43:43):
I think that's a great way
to leave peoplehere, that you should
check on the people around you.
You should takecare of yourself.
And you should ask your companyto provide the supports that
will provide for a moreproductive, and happy,
and effective team.
SYLVIA DOSS (44:00):
Yeah, give them some suggestions.
[LAUGHS]
JILL FINLAYSON (44:03):
Fantastic.
Any final words youwant to leave people
on this topic of mentalhealth in the workplace?
SYLVIA DOSS (44:08):
I guess the one thing I want to mention
is that it's really serious.
We're really ata critical point,
and I think a lot of thingsthat we see, particularly
in the news, is reallydriven by poor mental health.
And so when BusinessGroup on Health says,
hey, this is like a top trendwe're paying attention to,
(44:31):
it really needs to be a toptrend that I think all of us
are paying attention to.
I think we're beyond I'mnot feeling good today,
I should get a therapist.
I think we're well beyond that.
And so just to takeit seriously, and take
care of your employees.
The last thing Iwant to mention is
people often say, whatcan I do in this world
(44:53):
to make things better?
And it's looking afteryourself and looking
after people around you.
JILL FINLAYSON (45:00):
That's such a great message
to leave people on, thatthis is something that we
should be paying attention to.
This is a serious topic.
It's a trending topic, andit's not one we can ignore
and that we need to take careof ourselves and pay attention.
Thank you so much, Sylvia.
SYLVIA DOSS (45:15):
Well, thank you, Jill.
JILL FINLAYSON (45:16):
And with that, I hope
you enjoyed this latest ina long series of podcasts
that we'll be sendingyour way every month.
Please share withfriends and colleagues
who may be interested in takingthis Future of Work journey
with us.
And make sure to check outextension.berkeley.edu to find
a variety of courses to helpyou thrive in this increasingly
challenging working landscape.
(45:36):
And to see what's comingup at EDGE in Tech,
go ahead and visitedge.berkeley.edu.
Thanks so much forlistening, and we'll
be back next month with anotherlook at the future of work.
The Future of Work podcast ishosted by me, Jill Finlayson,
produced by Sarah Benzuly,and edited by Matt DiPietro
and Natalie Newman.
Thanks for listening.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(45:58):
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(00:02):
SYLVIA DOSS (00:05):
70% of the employers
rank mental healthand substance use
disorder servicesas their number
two emerging area of concern.
Their focus is actually turningto virtual mental health
providers.
There is a reallydeep connection
between work, our mentalhealth, our overall health.
(00:27):
These kind ofthings go together.
JILL FINLAYSON: Welcome to The Future (00:31):
undefined
of Work podcast with BerkeleyExtension and the EDGE in Tech
initiative at theUniversity of California,
focused on expanding diversityand gender equity in tech.
EDGE in Tech is partof CITRIS, the Center
for IT Research in theInterest of Society
and the Banatao Institute.
UC Berkeley Extension isthe continuing education arm
of the University ofCalifornia at Berkeley.
(00:53):
Demand for mental healthbenefits has grown.
Per a 2023 NPR articletitled, "Psychologists
Say They Can't Meet the GrowingDemand for Mental Health Care,"
they quoted overhalf said they had
no openings for new patients.
Among those who kept waitlists, the average wait times
were three months or longer.
And nearly 40% said their waitlist had grown in the past year.
(01:16):
There is a growingmarket for apps
as well to fill the gaps,including relaxation
apps for meditationor deep breathing,
like Calm andHeadspace, as well as
platforms that connect peoplewith licensed therapists,
like BetterHelp.
And there's even a growingnumber of AI-powered solutions
that emulate a therapist,including Woebot Health, Limbic,
and Wysa.
(01:36):
All this has an impact onworkers and the workplace.
Unsurprisingly, some studiesare showing poor mental health,
depression, anxietyis associated
with lost productivity throughabsenteeism and presenteeism.
And as we heard fromDaniel Zhao at Glassdoor
in our earlier podcast, newergenerations of employees
are expecting employersto address these needs
(01:58):
with benefits.
So let's talk about whatemployees are seeking
from companies and how companiesare responding to discuss
this important topic.
We're delighted tospeak with Sylvia Doss.
Sylvia is a strategicadvisor and educator
with 15-plus years of experiencedesigning solutions for better
health and wellbeing in workenvironments and communities
that drive business outcomes.
(02:19):
She brings that experienceto Sable Advisory Services,
an advisory firm she foundedwith her colleagues in 2020.
Sable Advisory Serviceswas created in response
to the emerginguncertainty related
to the intersection ofhealth, environment, and work.
She partners with companiesto identify social risks
and opportunities and todevelop tailored solutions that
(02:42):
promote positive social impactand enhance long-term business
performance.
Her work in this spaceexpands into her community
as a board committee memberfor the Healing Well,
a nonprofit in San Francisco'sTenderloin neighborhood, where
she fosters advancing acommunity of wellness,
empowerment,liberation, and love.
Welcome, Sylvia.
SYLVIA DOSS (03:02):
Thank you, Jill.
JILL FINLAYSON (03:03):
It's so great to have you here,
and this is such a timely topic.
Those stats that I readare really concerning,
and we also hear a lot aboutburnout and exhaustion in work.
So can you tell us a littlebit about what you do
and how you're seeing thisneed for mental health grow?
SYLVIA DOSS (03:22):
So what I do with Sable Advisory is we
really look at thewhole environment.
And a lot of companies areconcerned about sustainability,
and they'reconcerned about ESG--
Environmental, Social,and Governance.
And we just work withthem to think about,
how does that reallyimpact their employees?
(03:42):
And how does it impacttheir relationship,
not just with theiremployees, but their consumers
and with their communities?
And so it often comes upthat with our employees,
how are we reallysupporting them?
And yeah, there'sthe health aspect,
but there's this mentalhealth aspect that
(04:03):
connects so strongly withit and is just largely,
I wouldn't sayignored, but it's kind
of like the stepchildof health, I guess,
is maybe how I couldthink about it.
And so we want to helporganizations think about not
just what programs are needed.
You know, historically, I'veworked for organizations
(04:25):
where it's all about programs.
But also, how does thatfit into the organization?
How does that fit intothe work that people do?
And how does that actuallybetter and improve outcomes
for the organizations,outcomes for the people,
outcomes for the community?
JILL FINLAYSON (04:42):
So when you talk about these programs,
tell me a little bit more aboutthe different types of programs
that are out there andwhere they fall short
from this holistic view.
SYLVIA DOSS (04:51):
So for years, I've worked with organizations where
we have mental health services.
And we'll have, say, a mentalhealth panel of therapists.
So just like your doctor, yougo in, you find a therapist,
you make an appointment,and you go and see them.
That actually hasexpanded, particularly
through the pandemic,to more virtual care.
So now you cansee your therapist
(05:13):
via Zoom, which I personallythink is actually a great thing.
I think it increasesaccessibility greatly.
The other ways thatI see it happen is--
and you mentioned somethings, Calm, Headspace,
but also versions of that,which is a combination of some
of that type of therapy,like CBT therapy,
(05:35):
but with a therapist in thebackground, a therapist more
assigned to groupsof people that
assigned to individual people.
And then I would say, the lastthing that I see with employers
are the apps whereit's totally AI-driven.
My concern is withintake, really.
(05:57):
And do people knowwhere they are mentally?
Do they know whattheir needs are?
And where's the intake tomake sure we're getting people
to the right places?
JILL FINLAYSON (06:06):
Yeah.
I think that's reallyimportant to think about--
what people are feeling, whenthey are seeking these services,
what are their needs?
And are they beingalmost a concierge
to find the right place to startfor where their needs are today?
So you've talked toa lot of companies.
How are they defininghealth and wellness?
(06:27):
You said mental healthwas the stepchild.
So what's the larger spherethat all of the mental health
fits into?
SYLVIA DOSS (06:34):
Health and benefits.
It's looking at, what arethe top drivers of health?
Where are we spendingour money largely?
There was something the BusinessGroup on Health-- actually,
they ran a survey atthe end of last year.
70% of the employers rankedmental health and substance use
disorder servicesas their number
(06:55):
two emerging area of concern.
And their focus is actuallyturning to virtual mental health
providers.
I personally thinkthat what gets missed--
and this is really a lot ofwork we start thinking about
with Sable Advisory--
is there is a really deepconnection between work,
(07:17):
our mental health,our overall health.
These kind ofthings go together.
And I remember whenI was a kid, now,
my parents, they worked 9:00to 5:00, and they came home,
and we had dinner every night.
And they didn't work weekends.
And Sundays, we spenttime with family.
And I didn't sense thatthere was this concern
over work-life balance.
(07:39):
I feel like now we're justtrying to get that back,
just having time to rest.
And so if you don't have enoughof that, job satisfaction,
work stress--
all of those things contributeto our mental stress.
I began studying particularlyduring the pandemic
is, what are someof the things that
(07:59):
are really challenging people?
Because I think we saw mentalhealth just kind of blow up.
And I just did asimple calculation.
If I have a nice job,I work 40 hours a week,
I don't have a hugecommute, how much of my time
over a seven-day workweekactually is spent on work
(08:20):
and work-related-- gettingto work, getting from work?
And it's abouthalf of that time.
And so it justmakes sense to me.
You can't spend half ofyour time doing something
and it doesn't impact you.
JILL FINLAYSON (08:32):
Absolutely.
Well, I think when we lookat what companies are doing,
it's exciting to see thatthey are prioritizing this,
that this is an area ofemerging concern for them.
So as they look at theneeds that are growing,
they're also, of course,pressed with financial limits
on the other side.
(08:53):
So how do youcoach the companies
to take this more seriously?
SYLVIA DOSS (08:58):
I actually don't think that they cannot take it
seriously.
There's differentways to actually look
at how we start to supportpeople in mental health.
There's a top-down approach, andthere's a bottom-up approach.
And the employer-- one thingis, yeah, you get a program.
You have a program that'saccessible for people.
(09:20):
But the other thingis not contributing
to people's poor mental health.
And to me, thatmeans having managers
who can actually manage people.
And manage people isn'tjust project management.
It's actually beingable to talk to people,
understand what'sgoing on with people,
(09:41):
be able to have thoseconversations when it's needed,
checking in with peoplebefore meetings, just
having that type of culture.
And I actuallybelieve that things
can go pretty far when you havea culture that starts to say,
hey, our mental healthis really important.
And that in itself balanceoff a lot of costs.
(10:03):
It balances off the cost andthe usage of the programs,
and it increases productivity.
I mean, we know there'sstudies and data--
this isn't just talk--
that show that you'remore productive when
you're having a great day.
JILL FINLAYSON (10:19):
Absolutely.
So how do we givemanagers these skills
to support their employees?
And how do we build theculture that promotes wellness?
SYLVIA DOSS (10:30):
The way organizations are typically set
up, things are really siloed.
You have your organizationaldevelopment people,
you have yourbenefits people, you
might have your wellbeingpeople, your safety,
your workers' comp.
I actually think, numberone, the basic infrastructure
needs to be revamped becauseall of this is working together,
(10:54):
and it's not assimple as just, OK,
we're going to get togetheronce a month and talk about it.
It's almost like itneeds to be revamped.
That's one of the mainthings that can happen.
And use data, findways to use data,
and understand theintersectionalities
(11:15):
of people and the population.
I would say, you maylook at recruiters,
and recruiters are thinkingabout the population one way,
and health people over here arethinking about the population
a different way.
But we really need tounderstand our population.
And I'm talking aboutmore than what kind
of diseases or injuries theyhave, more than age, and gender,
(11:40):
and how many kids they havecovered under the plan.
We need to understand ethnicity.
We need to understandsexual orientation.
We need to understand commutetimes if they're commuting in.
We really need to takesome time and understand
who our people are.
JILL FINLAYSON (11:58):
That's a great way to break it down
and to really thinkabout the role
that diversity, equity,and inclusion can
play in these mental healthchallenges and the needed
supports.
So some of the thingsthat companies do
are they have employeeresource groups,
but what do you see as neededwhen we start to consider
all of thosedifferent populations
(12:19):
that we have in the workplace?
SYLVIA DOSS (12:21):
Well, employee resource groups--
and you mentionedthat, but I don't
want to undermine thatbecause that is actually
a grassroots wayto start connecting
all these differentintersectionalities of people
and working with those groupsand having them support
a broader corporate strategyand initiative of we
(12:43):
want to have healthy people--
that means mental andthat means physical--
I think is a great way to getthem involved in saying, well,
this is what our people need.
This is what we need.
JILL FINLAYSON (12:53):
So if we want to provide
needed supports forspecific intersections
that are out there,are there other things
we can do to recognizethat not everyone is
having the same experience?
SYLVIA DOSS (13:07):
So this is where we get
down to the differentprograms available.
And with mental health--
and I think a lot of peopleactually feel this way.
When it comes to amental health provider,
me as a Black woman, my age,living in a part of the world
I live in, I'mlooking for someone
who understands who I am, whohas a similar experience to me.
(13:30):
I had a friend once,and she was a therapist.
And she focused on working withfirst-generation South Indian
women of a certain age, andthat was very, very specific.
But that's what sherelated to, and that's
who she could talk to and help.
And she understood alot of the background.
So I believe thatorganizations need
(13:52):
to take into account thatyou can't just throw out
a general panel of providerswithout knowing what's
the diversity, race, ethnicity,gender, sexual orientation, how
accessible they are.
And one thing I don'twant to leave out
is also parents and their kids.
(14:14):
So having kids under 18--
it's a significantly growingarea for mental health support.
And I just don't see that enoughfocus is really given to that.
JILL FINLAYSON (14:27):
It's still coming up a lot, the sandwich
generation, where theyhave the kids in school,
but they also are dealing withaging parents as well, which
can be another huge stressor.
SYLVIA DOSS (14:37):
Yeah.
And it's interesting youmentioned that because I
was just thinkingtoday, when you
go to search for amental health provider,
the way they're titledactually doesn't align,
I think, with whata lot of people
are looking for as an industry,the mental health profession,
could actually fix.
There's a whole lot ofmarriage and family.
(15:00):
And I was like, well, I don'tneed a marriage therapist,
but just not understandingwhat falls under that category.
I just think that theyalso could do some work.
And to your point ofthe sandwich generation,
you're a caregiver.
You could use some support,probably a different type
of therapist than someone whois working with new parents
(15:21):
as an example.
JILL FINLAYSON (15:23):
Absolutely.
Stressors come fromdifferent sides.
So I see three elementsto this, and I'd
like to hear your thoughtson these different elements.
So one is, how doyou manage stressors
that come from insidethe workplace--
work-related stress,that work-life balance
that you talked about?
Then there's the familyrelationship stresses.
(15:43):
But there's anotherlevel, which is the world.
We're in a very divisivetime in our country.
The politics arevery challenging,
and there's a lot of traumainduced just by the news.
So we're gettingit from all sides.
And so as we think about thecompany and their opportunity
to be supportive, theyhave to look at all
(16:06):
three of those buckets.
SYLVIA DOSS (16:08):
Absolutely.
Something else standsout during the pandemic
is just having environments thatI think of as a safe workplace.
And to me, a safeworkplace means not just
I'm safe physically, butI'm also safe mentally.
I know I'm going to go in,I'm not going to be harassed.
(16:29):
I know I'm going tobe respected there.
I think a lot goes into justthe culture of the workplace,
just having your basichealth essentials,
being able to have accessto programs and providers,
and the coupleother areas, which
was crisis support andenvironmental essentials
is what I named it.
It can't be ourpersonal crisis support.
(16:51):
You have a family issue.
It could be a broadercrisis support, which
is what's going on inthe world right now,
and the environmentalessentials.
So how do we supportpeople environmentally?
But organizationshave to realize
that all this is going on forpeople, which is why we're even
having this conversation becauseif all this wasn't going on,
(17:12):
this probablywouldn't be at the top
of a lot of ourconversations and concerns.
I think that just speaksto, what kind of culture
do you want ofyour organization?
And how do you go aboutbuilding that and building it
from the top downand the bottom up?
You're going tohave to hold people
accountable and particularly,I'd say managers accountable.
(17:37):
And you're going to have toreally get some empathy going
through that organization.
I think empathy goes a longway to supporting people when
there's challenges they'rehaving inside the workplace,
or with the family,or just in the world.
JILL FINLAYSON (17:53):
Yeah.
You mentioned environmentally.
Say a little bitmore about that.
SYLVIA DOSS (17:58):
Yeah.
You know, I have an environmentjust in the community I'm in.
And I have an environmentin being here in California
or being in San Francisco.
And I also have an environmentbeing in the US and these world
issues.
There's this old-schoolmindset that hangs out there
and it says, when you cometo work, you come to work,
(18:19):
and all that stuff should beoff to the side somewhere.
And I think that still filtersthrough work environments.
And it's just notthe way things work.
And frankly, it never did.
And so I think ofenvironments, we just
have to be sensitivethat things go on.
(18:40):
I'll give you an example.
So years ago, there was ashooting of a Black church.
And for me to go into work andno one says anything about it,
it's like, that'simpacting my environment.
JILL FINLAYSON (18:55):
So why do you think
it's so difficult to givepeople the health services,
like the therapist?
Why are the weights so long?
And do you see any outlookon the horizon that
says that's going to improve?
SYLVIA DOSS (19:08):
Years ago, particularly when
I first moved tothe Bay Area and I
was working for an insurancecompany, part of my role
was in going out and attractingproviders and setting up
contracts with providers groups.
I've been thinking about thatwith mental health providers.
And it may come downto pay, frankly--
(19:29):
pay and finding waysto actually get people
through the educationalsystem focus on therapists.
So I believe that there'sa shortage of therapists,
particularly whenyou start to look
at all the differentintersectionalities of people.
But I don't believe thatthe industry has really
put forth a roadmap and apathway to increase that.
(19:52):
And instead, the roadis going toward apps.
JILL FINLAYSON (19:58):
Right.
So if you can't afford oryou can't get a therapist,
is an app better than nothing?
SYLVIA DOSS (20:05):
I actually think an app probably
is better than nothing.
I've used a couple ofmeditation apps for years,
and I'd say it's betterthan nothing, for sure.
JILL FINLAYSON (20:16):
How do we get where we need to be faster?
And maybe this isone of those ways.
SYLVIA DOSS (20:22):
Yeah, perhaps so.
JILL FINLAYSON: Yeah, because we do (20:23):
undefined
have to train a new generation.
And I think this isa question of this
is one of those jobs thatis perhaps both AI-tolerant
but also being challenged by AI.
SYLVIA DOSS (20:35):
Yeah.
I think it's really interesting.
If you ever talk to therapistsabout AI and what they do,
there's certainly a difference.
What may be achallenge for these AI
mental health apps isthe fact that it's AI.
And do people trust it?
Do people feel likethey're being heard?
(20:57):
[LAUGHS] I think thatwill be a challenge.
And I wonder, whenyou know that it's AI,
does it move youfurther away from really
being able to ever havepeople relationships?
JILL FINLAYSON (21:12):
I'm glad you brought that up.
I think there havebeen some studies that
have said that peopleknowing it's AI
doesn't affect theirability to use the apps.
They're OK withthat, and it's still
a place where they canexpress themselves.
But I think you're bringingup another big issue that's
another cause of mental healthissues in the United States.
So I don't know how muchyou can say about this,
(21:32):
but the loneliness epidemic.
We're more connectedthan ever before,
but people feel moreisolated than ever before
and feel like they can't buildthose social relationships.
SYLVIA DOSS (21:43):
What I can I tell you about loneliness is just
this past week--
I'm familiar with Bell Hooks.
And in her book, AllAbout Love, there
was some stuff inthere about loneliness.
And this is from theearly '90s, I think--
loneliness reallybecoming a problem.
I'm probably not anexpert in loneliness.
(22:05):
I can't really put myfinger on what it is,
but I do know that ifI'm having a hard time
and I can get togetherwith my girlfriend,
even just to talk abouthaving a hard time,
it makes a significantdifference.
And if people don't havethose types of relationships,
who do you bounce off orvent when you have a bad day,
(22:29):
or when you're strugglingwith a family issue,
or when someonepasses, or you just
don't have thosepeople in your life
who are going tolook out for you?
JILL FINLAYSON (22:40):
Yeah.
And I think data also saysthat you live longer--
your health spanand your life span
is longer if youmaintain social ties.
That's one of themetrics they can measure.
So it's a questionof, how do we help
people bridge someof those human gaps
and not just havethe friends at work?
(23:00):
Because is theworkplace your family?
That discussion has gone bothways, where people are like,
it's great that it's family;no, it's bad that it's family.
It's work.
[LAUGHTER]
SYLVIA DOSS (23:14):
Yeah.
Well, I could go a coupleof ways on a workplace.
I have worked forgroups with people
who were pretty closeto family, and I
have worked for groups wherepeople are not at all family.
I think it just depends on howwell you connect with people.
I mean, oftentimes, when you'rein workplaces where, people, you
feel that close tothem, there's going
(23:34):
to be a couple of people you'llprobably keep up with forever.
And really, it's notnecessarily family as much
as it is, I think, friendship.
JILL FINLAYSON (23:42):
Absolutely.
So with work being moreporous, being more 24/7,
having these emails goall days, all times,
some of the things thatI've heard people talk about
is put at the bottomof your email,
my hours may notmatch your hours.
Please don't feelobligated to reply if it's
outside your work hours.
(24:03):
But what are someof the other things
that companies shouldencourage or employees
should do to protect themselvesfrom this 24/7 being on?
SYLVIA DOSS (24:12):
I will tell you, Jill, years ago, I
had a manager, she wouldget into a work conversation
on a Saturday night.
So you're at home on Saturdaynight, the phone rings,
and she what the hellthis work conversation.
And I hadn't reported directlyto her. but when I was about to,
(24:34):
someone said, don'teven start that.
Just don't be available.
So it takes somestrength, especially when
you're young in your career, tonot be available certain times.
And this is whereI think self-esteem
comes in-- yourself-esteem, your self-love.
You don't let someone elsetake that away from you.
(24:56):
And I have talked topeople on weekends.
I've talked to peoplewhen I was sick.
But the understandingis that's not the norm.
We have a crisis here.
I'm going to behere to help you.
But the norm isnot that we're just
going to have these randomconversations that we can have
on Monday on a Saturday night.
(25:18):
I advise young employers,when you go into a workplace,
you have to figure out if itis really the culture for you.
But it doesn't meanthat you're the problem.
It may just not be afit, or they may actually
be a problem on top of that.
The 24/7 and puttingthings on your email,
you have to just getinto shutting down.
(25:40):
But it does-- it takes a littlebit of strength, I think,
to do that workingwith a company where
people around the clock.
JILL FINLAYSON (25:49):
And that's where I think leadership does matter
because as newgraduates, new employees,
they're not going to knowhow to set those boundaries,
so it really does comedown to the leadership
to encourage thosepractices and walk the walk.
SYLVIA DOSS (26:02):
Yeah.
Almost like havingno-email times.
JILL FINLAYSON (26:05):
Exactly.
SYLVIA DOSS (26:07):
And you get in trouble
for sending emails at10 o'clock at night.
[LAUGHS]
JILL FINLAYSON (26:10):
Yeah.
And I was thinking moreabout the remote work.
So we talked about the mentalcost of having a long commute.
So we have now proof thatflexible work, remote work
works.
So a lot of peopleare doing that.
And disproportionately,women, people
of color, people who live a longdistance from their workplace
are especiallybenefiting from this.
(26:31):
But there's a flipside to this as well.
If you are remote and notphysically in the workplace,
how do you avoid beingleft out, feeling isolated,
or even a littleparanoid, like what's
going on when I'm not there?
SYLVIA DOSS (26:46):
Well, this is actually
something I've thoughtabout really a lot,
coming up through aworkplace that was present.
I was with them all day.
And you think about thingsthat go on in the workplace.
There was the studythat what people
miss not being in a workplace.
And at first, it wasthis thought, oh, I'm
going to miss people.
(27:06):
But they're notmissing the people.
They're seeing the peopleon Zoom and talking to them.
But they miss thingslike visibility,
being able to run intothat senior executive,
or run into someone inthat other department
that you might beinterested in working in.
Culture is an issue,learning opportunities,
(27:27):
and even having a structuredday back to the 24/7.
I believe that it takesthe organization--
and this is where youstart to bring together
mental health, organizationaldevelopment, the health
people, everybody together.
How do you build thisvirtual company, basically?
(27:50):
And what I find sointeresting, Jill,
is there used to be agroup that I would follow.
They would have aconference every year,
and they talkedabout remote work.
And this is before the pandemic.
So the people who wereconnected with that
were people who hadopted for remote work.
They were living all over theworld, doing all kinds of stuff,
(28:12):
doing remote work.
That group pretty muchwent out of business
because now the people who arein this remote-work situation,
it's new to them.
They didn't opt for it.
It came upon them,just the difference.
I don't know if Icould really say
how do you create this completevirtual company where I can get
(28:36):
to know the people and learnand development because that's
an area I'm interested in.
I'm not sure.
But unless that'shappening, there
is no place for an employee togo except for another company.
JILL FINLAYSON (28:50):
It's quite challenging,
and it's a balancing act becauseit's partially the employee's
responsibility to makesure that they maintain
those relationshipsand hooked in,
but it's also thecompany's responsibility
to make sure theinfrastructure is there,
that people aren'tunintentionally left out
of meetings or invites.
So there's a proactivenesson both sides.
SYLVIA DOSS (29:10):
Right.
I wonder if employees coming incould have some kind of mentor
who runs interference for them.
JILL FINLAYSON (29:16):
Yeah.
I think mentorsare a huge resource
for understandingthe unwritten rules
and get the lay of the land.
SYLVIA DOSS (29:25):
Exactly, exactly.
JILL FINLAYSON: Another thing that (29:27):
undefined
really comes up when you thinkabout mental health is vacation.
Let's take a vacation.
Let's go breathe, reallyseparate ourselves from work,
and have a vacation.
Are people taking vacation?
SYLVIA DOSS (29:42):
I think it depends.
I think it dependson your organization.
I think more traditionalorganizations,
there's still vacations.
But there's a couple ofchallenges with vacation.
And one is being OK with thatrespond to an email 10 o'clock.
(30:02):
Now you're not going to respondto an email for a week or two.
Are you going to do that?
What I used to find issomeone went on vacation,
you didn't email them.
You just kept everythinguntil they came back.
Unless they were takinga super long vacation,
everything could just wait.
The other issue I thinkwith vacation is--
I mean, the US isn't reallybig on days off to begin with,
(30:23):
and the issue ofunlimited vacation,
and people not understanding it.
And me, having been in thebenefits and the health care
realm, it's like, how doyou unlimited vacation?
What happens-- you know,I'm asking all the questions
and find out that unlimitedvacation technically
means you don't have avacation plan, which means
(30:45):
that you don't accrue vacation.
So I need a week off, and I havea manager who says, OK, yeah,
you can take a weekoff-- not this week.
It'd have to be next week.
I could also havea manager who says,
I can't afford for you totake a week off right now.
And it also defaults tothe culture of the company.
(31:07):
So now that two weeks that Ihad accrued under one company,
under my unlimited vacationplan, I didn't accrue it,
so maybe just don'tget to take it.
JILL FINLAYSON: It's not a commodity (31:21):
undefined
that you can say, ooh, I haveto take it or it'll go away.
SYLVIA DOSS (31:26):
Right.
It's made-up.
And I think I'vementioned I feel
like it's a scambecause I mean, who
wouldn't want realunlimited vacation?
But if it's going to be up to mymanager to say, you can take it,
you can't take it,and then people
start to feel maybe Ishouldn't be taking vacation
(31:47):
because everybody hereonly takes two weeks.
And so I want to dothis three-week thing,
but I shouldn't.
It used to be a benefit.
The longer you stay, themore vacation you get.
That was a win-win.
But it really dependson the culture.
I've seen it play outin companies that way.
Companies withunlimited vacation--
sometime, people happen to bein companies and with groups
(32:10):
within those companieswhere they can actually
benefit from that.
And then other ones,it's like, oh, no,
nobody takes a vacation here.
JILL FINLAYSON: I like your point (32:18):
undefined
that it really comesback to, again, defaults
to the culture of the company.
And so if an individualdoes want to take vacation,
are people actually justtaking vacation days?
Or are they feeling like theyjust have too much to do?
Or are they continuing towork when they're on vacation?
What are you seeing?
SYLVIA DOSS (32:38):
I see that people work a lot on vacation.
At least, they'llcheck their email.
Oh, I'm just going to checkmy email in the morning.
Well, [LAUGHS] now you'reworking on vacation.
I mean, the benefitof vacation is
to be able to step awayfrom this day-to-day, half
of your time each weekbeing associated with work.
(32:59):
It allows you to actuallystep away from that
and focus on other things.
It allows you to do somethingcreative, do something fun,
take some walks in the park, govisit some family or friends.
It allows you tojust focus on that.
And just focusingon that, we know
it's really relaxing toour mind, to our brain,
(33:21):
to our bodies.
And when we run people 24/7basically 365 days a year,
it's just not healthy.
JILL FINLAYSON (33:32):
Absolutely.
And I think that point thatyou just made about creativity,
you come back able tohave a better perspective.
You can see things thatmaybe you weren't missing
because you were in the weeds.
So I do think there'sa lot of benefits
to getting a real break.
SYLVIA DOSS (33:47):
Absolutely.
JILL FINLAYSON (33:48):
So we talked a little bit
about all the differentaspects of people's lives
where stress comes in.
One of the major thingsthat we talk about
is a major event insomeone's life-- a divorce,
a loss, the grieving process.
That's a very individualexperience as well.
So what do you seeas company policies?
And how can we do a betterjob of supporting people
(34:10):
when they're in thatmoment of crisis?
SYLVIA DOSS (34:13):
Well, first off, I think part of it
is having managers thatunderstand that this employee is
having a personal crisis.
It's not their personal crisis.
It's my employee'spersonal crisis
because sometimesI think managers
can think, well, OK, that'snot that big of a deal you
need to get over it.
And this is the empathy andthe compassion part of it.
(34:36):
But I think somethingthat's difficult
about it is thatif I'm grieving,
I can grieve for months.
Do I not work for months?
But I do believethat employers need
to find a way to have those kindof conversations with employees.
Three days bereavementis just deplorable.
(34:58):
So what I was 27,my mother passed.
And we had threedays bereavement.
And I took a week.
Nobody said anything about it.
That week was nothing.
That week was nothing in that.
And I just wish that maybe Iwould have had a manager who
(35:23):
even would have said, I can'tjust have you off for months
necessarily unless you really doneed to take a personal leave,
but would have supported me inmaybe taking extra days here
and there, supported me ingetting some mental health
support.
Don't give me thebiggest project ever
(35:43):
and hold my feet to the fire.
When somebody is going throughsomething, we care about them.
We looked out for them,make sure they're eating.
JILL FINLAYSON (35:51):
A little kindness goes a long way.
SYLVIA DOSS (35:54):
Yeah.
And I think for thoseparticular issues--
grieving, divorces--you have to realize
that is significant for people.
JILL FINLAYSON (36:03):
This is the most intergenerational workforce
that we've ever had.
We've got a lot ofdifferent groups of people.
Are you seeing anydifferences in regard
to willingness to talkabout mental health
needs amongst thesedifferent generations
and what they expect?
SYLVIA DOSS (36:18):
Yeah, yeah.
I think the youngergeneration is much more open
to talking about mental health.
It's just much morecommon for them.
To that point, I'm not sure thatthey act on it in the best way.
(36:38):
And what I mean by thatis for me to say, hey,
I have a therapistor whatever, and I'm
talking to a youngerperson, they're like, OK,
it's no big deal.
And they may say, oh, I need totake care of my mental health.
But to actuallygo to a therapist,
actually take thesteps to do it,
I'm not convinced thatthey're doing that
(36:59):
at a significantly greaterrate than prior generations.
And part of that maybe digital solutions.
Yeah, it may be yourCalms, and your Headspace,
and your Insight timers,and other things like that.
But I do think that they'remore open to it, for sure.
JILL FINLAYSON (37:21):
Is there still a stigma around mental health
and talking about mental health?
Or do you thinkthat has improved?
SYLVIA DOSS (37:28):
I think it's improved,
but I still believe it'sa stigma because I think
as you go on with differentgenerations in the workplace,
you get to older generations,I think there still
is a stigma aboutmental health and what's
going on with that person.
And is this work toohard for them now?
(37:49):
The concern withwork before was,
if have a mental health issue,they think I can't do the work.
And let's say you have ayounger person who is constantly
seeing their therapist, how dothe managers think about that?
I could go probably to physicaltherapy forever for a knee,
and it wouldn't bea concern, right?
(38:12):
But if I have to go to mytherapist, I don't know.
JILL FINLAYSON (38:16):
That's an interesting comparison
of what's acceptable andwhat they start to question.
SYLVIA DOSS (38:21):
Yeah.
So I think there'ssome of that there.
I don't think it's gone at all.
JILL FINLAYSON: Kind of wrapping up (38:26):
undefined
on two fronts, let's talk aboutwhat companies and leaders need
to do.
What red flags shouldthey be watching for?
And how can they bettersupport their employees?
SYLVIA DOSS (38:38):
Employers really need to pay attention to,
number one, is who'sin your workforce?
And don't have thatjust creep up on you.
Know who's there.
Know rates that people arecoming, and going, retiring,
or just quitting.
Understand the flowof your workforce.
(38:58):
Understand what yourprimary health concerns are
and ask about it fromdifferent angles.
I'd probably challengeevery employer,
if you have employeeresource groups,
you should be interviewingthem-- every one of them--
and get their feedback on it.
Is the company doingenough around health,
(39:20):
and mental health,and supporting you?
And I know that the challengegoing out and asking employees
is now you have to dosomething about it.
But you should want todo something about it.
So I think that that'sfirst red flags.
You should know thatso that you know what's
going on with your business.
I think some strategies--
(39:42):
and it goes along withthat-- is just making sure
that you evenunderstand intersections
and that you arevaluing intersections.
So I'm a woman of a certainage, I'm a Black woman,
I have a certain education,I live with a certain place.
All those things matter.
And for strategies, onething is do a bottom-up
(40:04):
and top-down strategy.
And a really easybottom-up strategy
is do some managertraining, and at least
have your managers at thebeginning of every meeting
ask people how they're doing.
Give them a scale, 1 to5, red, yellow, green,
(40:26):
where are you today?
And use that information toinform how you run that meeting.
When I worked for Chevron,a very safety-focused
organization, every meetingstarted with a safety moment--
every one.
When we have vendors come in,they bring their safety moment
(40:47):
for us to start to meeting with.
There's stuff I donow that's still very
safety-focused because of that.
And so just start to intertwinethat into your own team.
That's what I wouldsay for employers.
JILL FINLAYSON (41:01):
A little bit about how you run your meetings
how you interactwith people, just
having that sense ofkeeping a check-in
and understandingwhere people are at.
SYLVIA DOSS (41:10):
Yeah, exactly.
JILL FINLAYSON (41:12):
So let's talk about the individual-- so
the individual employee.
What are some redflags they should
be watching for for themselvesin terms of how they're doing
in the workplace and beyond?
And what are some strategiesfor taking advantage of what
your company has to offer?
But also, what areother things that you
can do if your company maybeisn't offering as many benefits
(41:32):
as they could?
SYLVIA DOSS (41:33):
So I do think that individuals
do need to take responsibility.
And we need to takeresponsibility for ourselves
and the impact it has notjust on us, but our families,
the people around us.
I think a thingthat is challenging
is knowing when do you do that.
When do you have a challenge?
When are youapproaching burnout?
(41:54):
And we don't always knowthat until we hit that wall.
So practicing healthypractices upfront--
this is where you get to thiswellness and wellbeing, right?
It helps us to know thatsomething is getting out
of sorts--
things like creativityand gaining creativity
(42:16):
from being on vacation, butalso doing something creative
in your life--
meditation, exercise,start checking your sleep.
I mean, I was nevergood with sleep.
It took me over a year oftracking my sleep before I could
actually get into a patternof, OK, now I know I'm rested,
(42:36):
I'm not rested.
And even just beingin nature and just
starting to incorporatesomething every week, put it
in the calendarbecause it supports us,
but it also starts to say,God, I'm so exhausted.
And you start torealize, I'm super
exhausted because thisjob is wearing me out.
And then little things--
check on people around you.
(42:58):
And I think we go through andwe say, hey, how are you doing?
But if you know someone iscoming back from a divorce,
check up on them.
See if they want togo grab lunch, coffee,
just little stuff, really,to keep us connected
and take responsibility for us
And as far as mentalhealth, if you
have a company that'snot providing services,
(43:19):
there ways to getmental health support.
There are a lot ofproviders of therapists
who work on a sliding scale.
You can Google providers in yourarea, and you can look them up.
And some of them they will tellyou, I work on a sliding scale.
So if you can'tafford a full bill,
(43:41):
maybe you can afforda partial bill.
JILL FINLAYSON (43:43):
I think that's a great way
to leave peoplehere, that you should
check on the people around you.
You should takecare of yourself.
And you should ask your companyto provide the supports that
will provide for a moreproductive, and happy,
and effective team.
SYLVIA DOSS (44:00):
Yeah, give them some suggestions.
[LAUGHS]
JILL FINLAYSON (44:03):
Fantastic.
Any final words youwant to leave people
on this topic of mentalhealth in the workplace?
SYLVIA DOSS (44:08):
I guess the one thing I want to mention
is that it's really serious.
We're really ata critical point,
and I think a lot of thingsthat we see, particularly
in the news, is reallydriven by poor mental health.
And so when BusinessGroup on Health says,
hey, this is like a top trendwe're paying attention to,
(44:31):
it really needs to be a toptrend that I think all of us
are paying attention to.
I think we're beyond I'mnot feeling good today,
I should get a therapist.
I think we're well beyond that.
And so just to takeit seriously, and take
care of your employees.
The last thing Iwant to mention is
people often say, whatcan I do in this world
(44:53):
to make things better?
And it's looking afteryourself and looking
after people around you.
JILL FINLAYSON (45:00):
That's such a great message
to leave people on, thatthis is something that we
should be paying attention to.
This is a serious topic.
It's a trending topic, andit's not one we can ignore
and that we need to take careof ourselves and pay attention.
Thank you so much, Sylvia.
SYLVIA DOSS (45:15):
Well, thank you, Jill.
JILL FINLAYSON (45:16):
And with that, I hope
you enjoyed this latest ina long series of podcasts
that we'll be sendingyour way every month.
Please share withfriends and colleagues
who may be interested in takingthis Future of Work journey
with us.
And make sure to check outextension.berkeley.edu to find
a variety of courses to helpyou thrive in this increasingly
challenging working landscape.
(45:36):
And to see what's comingup at EDGE in Tech,
go ahead and visitedge.berkeley.edu.
Thanks so much forlistening, and we'll
be back next month with anotherlook at the future of work.
The Future of Work podcast ishosted by me, Jill Finlayson,
produced by Sarah Benzuly,and edited by Matt DiPietro
and Natalie Newman.
Thanks for listening.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(45:58):
Popular Podcasts
NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal
Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com