PIP—Friend or Foe?

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
[MUSIC PLAYING]

(00:04):

SONYA SIGLER (00:06):
Somewhere in there, it's a wake up call.
Have the self-awarenessto really understand
what's being said to you.
Is it a way to get you out?
Or is it a way toreally help you?
Even if it's a wayto get you out,
is it a way to get youout of the company?
Is it a way to get youout of that department,
out from under that person?
Or is it a way to trulyimprove what you're doing?

(00:29):

JILL FINLAYSON: Welcome to the Future (00:31):
undefined
of Work podcast withBerkeley Extension
and the EDGE in Tech at theUniversity of California,
focused on expanding diversityand gender equity in tech.
EDGE in Tech is part of theInnovation Hub at CITRIS,
the Center for IT Researchin the Interest of Society
and the Banatao Institute.
UC Berkeley Extension isthe continuing education arm

(00:52):
of the University ofCalifornia at Berkeley.
In this episode, we'regoing to shed light
on a sensitive subject thatmany professionals encounter,
but very few understand,performance improvement
plans, or PIPs.
It's time to bring PIPs out ofthe shadows and talk about them.
You may be a manager tryingto guide your team to success
and have a challengingemployee who is struggling,

(01:14):
and you face havingto put them on a PIP.
Maybe you are thatemployee, struggling
to understand whatis expected of you
and frustrated by your lack ofadvancement and facing a PIP.
Let's explore and break downthe stigma of what a PIP really
is, how it can be used tosupport growth, rather than be
used as a disciplinary measure,and what both employees
and managers can do to navigatethis often tricky process.

(01:37):
To do so, we're chattingwith Sonya Sigler.
Sonya is the founderof PractiGal Coaching
and Consulting, an IP lawyer,and bestselling author
of Welcome to the Next Leveland What's Next for my Career?
In her private coachingand consulting work,
Sonya works with corporateteams, founders, executives,
entrepreneurs, andlegal professionals
to provide them withtools and connections

(01:59):
they need to succeed.
Self-care is anessential part of helping
herself and her clients to buildthe intentional life that they
desire.
Welcome, Sonya.

Thank you, Jill.
I appreciate you having me.

JILL FINLAYSON (02:10):
Well, you have a very impressive resume,
and it looks like avery successful career.
Would you say your career is animportant part of your identity?

Gosh, I would say as a lawyer, it was my identity.
But I have since grown.
And now that I'm doing coachingand consulting and other things,
I would say it's a partof my identity, not
my actual identity.

And do you mind if I
ask you a personal question?

Sure.

JILL FINLAYSON: Have you ever been (02:36):
undefined
fired, laid off, or put on aperformance improvement plan?

I'd say, all of the above.

JILL FINLAYSON: It's not something (02:42):
undefined
that appears on your resume.
It's not something peoplelike to talk about.
And it's not something thatI think people would even
suspect had occurred to you.

So I would say, in my very first job,
I was laid off, and I was alsoput on a performance improvement
plan.
And as a lawyer, in the30-year career that I've had,
I've had exactly oneemployee evaluation.
It was at that very first job.
And that's also whereI was put on a PIP
because I didn'tplay by the rules.

And that is the question.
There are all these reasonsand all these things
that could lead to aperformance improvement plan.
I have to say, me too.
I was actually put on aperformance improvement plan,
was very ashamedabout it, didn't want
to talk to anybody about it.
And then I foundout later that it
had happened to anumber of other people
who were high performers.

(03:31):
I was surprised,and I was shocked
because nobody talked about it.

Yeah, it can be quite a wallop, just going back
to the shame, andembarrassment, and the--
it feels like theend of the world,
like, oh my god, I'm so smart.
And I've done thisjob for three years.
Why is this happening now?
All those feelings and emotions.
It's kind of hard tonavigate in the moment.

Yeah, and you feel like you're
working really hard.
In fact, oftentimes when thesituation is not feeling right,
you feel like you'reworking even harder.
And then there's all this sortof emotional labor on top of it.
How many people do you think areon a PIP at any given moment?

I think it's way higher than we think.
And if you start asking around,people will be like, oh yeah,
I was put on one ofthose at this job.
And then it starts coming out.
It's just not talked about.
And I've been verysuccessful in my career.
And if I was on a PIP in myvery first job, why was that?
And I look back onit now, and it's
because I didn't getalong with my boss
and I didn't play thegame that he wanted me

(04:30):
to play, which was kowtowto him and be deferential,
which I'm not surethat's in my personality.

I asked ChatGPT, and I think it said 2% to 5%
of the workforce is on aPIP at any given moment.
That's a huge number of people.
And the fact that you andI have experienced it,
but we don't talk aboutit-- no one talks about it--
and so people thinkwhen it happens to them,
it's uncommon, thatthey're exceptionally bad,
that they're the unusual.

And it feels like the end of the world.

Yeah.

It feels like the end of the world,
but it's not that unusual.
And you really haveto suss out, is it
used as a tool where you are,to get people out the door?
Or is it used as atool to really help
people become better attheir jobs or better fit
for their skills?

Absolutely.
And regardless, it'sinformation and information
that you can act on.
So why do thesecircumstances arise that lead
to somebody being put on aperformance improvement plan?

I think it can happen for a number of reasons.
One of them, I think, justfrom a perception standpoint,
is that it's a way tomove people out the door.
And sometimes it can be that.
But other times it can reallybe like, I want them to improve.
I've had employees who Ireally want to succeed,
but they're not listeningto what I need, as a manager

(05:49):
and as a team.
I think there's justmultiple reasons.
But you kind of have to lookat the bigger picture and suss
out if your company usesthem to counsel people out
or if your company uses themto really help people improve.
Which is it?
And it could be that yourcompany, instead of firing
people, just puts them on PIPs.
And then people getfrustrated and leave.

Yeah, I think that there is a mix.
And that's somethingthat hopefully we
can unpack a little bithere, is how can you
tell what's going on?
But maybe before we dig intowhat questions to ask, let's
find out what exactly is aperformance improvement plan?
How should they work?

Usually, performance improvement plans
are something that come fromHR, or from your manager,
through HR, and they are, let'sjust say, a veil, a thin veil,
of what you can do orwhat you've done wrong,
and then what youcan do to improve.
And usually, it's so vaguethat it's very difficult

(06:50):
to take action on.
And so when I saidearlier in terms
of what kind oforganization are you at,
are you at one that's reallytrying to help you get better
and become a good employee,productive, efficient,
all of those things?
Or is it a tool and a mechanismto get you out the door
without actually firing you?

So as a manager, if you
have a person who maybeisn't working out,
you're trying to eithercounsel them to improve,
or you're letting themknow that they're not
meeting the requirements sothat they may have to be let go,
or they may decide toleave on their own,
it feels like thisshould be a last resort.
What's your take on that?

I totally think it should be a last resort,
because if you're notcommunicating regularly
to your employees, how dothey know it's an issue?
When I manage a lot of people,I like for each of them
to have a plan.
And I kept a notefor each of them.
And I kept questionsfor each of them.
And the plan thatwe had was something
that came from theemployee, like, why

(07:47):
do you want to be in this job?
Where do you want togo after this job?
How can I help you get there?
My view as a managerwas I was a person
who could run interference tohelp them get the resources they
needed to do their joband to help them get
the kind of assignments thatwould give them the skills
that they wanted to learn.
I don't want anybodybored on my team.

(08:08):
I don't want anybodylanguishing either.
So I look at itas a last resort.
And not every company ormanager looks at it that way.
I do believe inregular communication.
I don't want anythingto be surprises.
And I think that people getsideswiped by being put on a PIP
when they didn't eventhink there was an issue.
And now, this comes to fruition.

(08:28):
And I think somecompanies do use them
as a tool to help people.
But think more of a use it as atool to cover up bad employment
practices in terms of being ableto communicate with employees.

In the case of trying to improve,
the manager is up against it.
So from an empathy forthe manager perspective,
they're trying to get work done.
There's a memberof their team that
isn't delivering atthe level, and that's
affecting theother team players,
and they need to get thisperson working better.
From the employee'sperspective, they perhaps
don't understandwhat the ask is,

(09:01):
or they're notgiven the supports
to achieve the goalsthat they have.
So can you say a little bitabout why an employee might
be blindsided?
Why might they be surprised?

I think there are a couple reasons.
One, they're not actually takingtime to do any self-reflection,
so they don't reflect on, amI even happy in this position?
Is this a good fit for me?
Do I even like workingat this company?
Do I like the work I'm doing?
So there can be like anostrich with your head
in the sand, where they'renot doing any self-reflection.

(09:31):
They're not looking at thebigger picture in terms
of are they happy in the job?
Are they doing the work?
Do they thrive in it?
The other reason isbecause things are unclear.
You could be micromanaged in away that everything is becoming
difficult. And that could bebecause your boss is insecure,
or they're newly promotedbeyond their competence.
There could be a varietyof reasons for that.

(09:52):
Or there isn't clarity overallin what the corporate team goals
are or the corporate goals.
And so you're trying to fit asquare peg into around hole,
and you don't haveclarity on what
you're supposed to be doing.
So all those factors can leadto, I don't know what I'm doing.
I don't even know howto succeed in this job.

JILL FINLAYSON: Yeah, I like the fact (10:07):
undefined
that you startedout your response
by talking about what the personshould be asking themselves.
Rather than asking,what am I doing
wrong, what does the company notlike, I think your question of,
are you happy in this position,is this a good fit for you,
do you get alongwith your boss, I
think those are reallyimportant questions
to ask because itisn't necessarily

(10:29):
about you or your qualificationsor the company and their needs.
It might be around the fit.

I think there are a couple of things
when it comes to fit.
And the secondbook that I wrote,
which is, What'sNext for my Career?
I tell the story of myfive years at Intuit.
It was an amazing company.
It was an amazing department.
It was an amazing job.
It was not the right job for me.
And it took me a little bitof time to figure that out.
I really liked workingin the department.

(10:54):
It was a lot of smart people.
We were growinglike gangbusters.
But the work was too repetitiveto be a good fit for me
and my entrepreneurial mindset.
It's was an it's me, notyou, kind of phenomenon.
And so once I realizedthat, I was like,
I need to go to startups.
I need to go somewherewhere the innovation is

(11:14):
happening on a daily basis, notsomething that's repetitive.
I looked at it as, gosh,I've negotiated the same kind
of agreement over and over.
This is like number 50 or number55 of this type of agreement.
To me, that was alittle bit boring.
And also, we were doing a lotof mergers and acquisitions.
And I was one of the lawyersdoing the due diligence.

(11:36):
And it's like, when you don'tsee an end in sight, no light
at the end of the tunnel, itcan be really difficult to stay
engaged because you're like,I don't see an end in sight
in this.
So for me, it was a greatrealization when I finally
figured out that I needed to beat the beginning of something,
at the idea stage, atthe brainstorming stage,

(11:57):
rather than the implementationof repetition stage.
That fit is somethingthat you have
to do a lot ofself-reflection on.
And so if you'reput on a PIP, you
should use that as apiece of information.
This should be kindof a wake up call,
especially if it'sout of the blue,
because something's not working,and you're either denying it
or you're notlooking, like you've

(12:17):
got your head in the sand.
So I do think it's important foryou to do that self-reflection
and to figure that out.
And is this even a fit for you?

Yeah, I think we sometimes think
company culture will change.
But that very rarely does.
And I too have stayedin a position too long.
I've heard you callyourself a bitter ender.
What's a bitter ender?

I am someone who thinks,
I can always make it work.
And I'm going to staytill the bitter end.
I'm going to be theone that turns out
the lights on the way out.
And to me, that means Idon't leave a position,
whereas maybe I should have,if I've learned everything
I can learn in that position,and there's nowhere for me
to go, which happens alot in a legal department.
There's not a lotof career trajectory

(13:01):
in a legal department.
So either I'm addingskills, or I'm
looking to take on more anddifferent types of work,
or like I said,I'm a bitter ender.
I didn't get the message thatI've learned everything I can.
I need to move on.

Well, if we're thinking about this
and we're now-- we've got somequestions to ask ourself about,
are we content?
Are we getting satisfactionout of our job?
But what are some ofthe early warning signs
that you might be at riskof being put on a PIP?

If your boss has set meetings with you,
and then canceled them, or putsyou off, or doesn't respond,
like you're seekingfeedback, like,
let's say they wanted to seesomething before you put it
out there, a contract,or marketing materials,
whatever it is for yourjob, and they don't respond.
That either meansyou're not a priority.
The work is not a priority.

(13:51):
You're not getting that timeand attention that you did
or that you used to.
Or maybe-- here's theopposite end of that.
You're getting toomuch attention.
You're getting too micromanaged.
Or, let's see, you're not giventhose plum work assignments
any longer, or you haveto scrounge up work,
or it's not clear on whateven you should be doing.
I think that kind ofhappened when I came back

(14:12):
from maternity leave, andthere was another attorney that
had taken my place, andwe were doing so much work
that he stayed after I cameback from maternity leave.
So I'm like, well,now what do I do?
Do I support the same groups?
Do I do the same work?
So I was kind of inthat position of I
don't have the samework that I did
when I was beforematernity leave,
so I had to scroungeup some work.
So if you find that you'rein that kind of position

(14:36):
where maybe you're nota priority anymore,
you're not havingyour boss's ear,
those can kind of bered flags, or those
can be, the indicia that pointsto things are not going well.

I think that's really interesting
because people do sometimestake a break from work
for various reasons,health or a family member,
and they come back,and somebody has
assumed their responsibility.
So it's reallyinteresting that you
had to redefine whatyour job description was
when you came back.

For the last two months,
I have been acaregiver for my mom.
And so I basicallydropped everything
that was not essential.
And now, I'm gettingback into it.
And it's kind of you haveto take that holistic look
that I mentioned earlier, interms of, what is my role?
What am I doing here?
Why is the work thatI'm doing important?
And even if that's foryourself as an entrepreneur,

(15:28):
even in a positionwith an employer,
you can do thatand take that look.
I think it's importantto be able to understand
the context ofwhat are you doing
to help the employer succeed?
And how does the work thatyou're doing fit into that?

Yeah, I think it's always
important to level up.
It's very hard when you're puton a performance improvement
plan, and it's all about youindividually and responding
to this very defensiveattack on you
as a person to take the time tosay, how does my job contribute
to the larger organization?
How does this lead to impact?

(16:05):
And do you haverecommendations on how
do you mentally look at thisbigger picture in context?

Yeah, I think companies are not always
clear on where they're headed.
I'm going to get backto an example at Intuit.
When we switched over frombeing a desktop software
company with Quicken to becomingan online financial services
powerhouse, whereeverything was online
and the software wasjust a piece of that,

(16:35):
we actually, as acompany, took a year
to do some soul searching.
So you mentionedearlier the culture
changes don't necessarilyhappen in a company.
This was kind of the oppositeof that, where they said,
we have to change.
The industry is changing.
The technology is changing.
We have to change with it.
What can we do as a company?
And they took a yearwith McKinsey & Company,

(16:57):
came in, did a lot ofconsulting, met with everybody.
We came out of that with avery clear picture of what
we were going to be doing.
And I would say that's rare.
And most companies don'thave that kind of clarity.
So if the company's not clear,and your manager is not clear,
it's going to bereally hard for you
to be clear on how do you fitinto the big picture, or how

(17:17):
do you fit intothe company picture
and what they'retrying to achieve?
And so if you don't havethat kind of clarity,
it's really hard to definesuccess in your position.
And if you'rebeing micromanaged,
and you can't get clarity,then it's doubly hard
to find that success.

Yeah, I think getting clarity
around what is success, howdo they measure success, what
are they looking for, andnot through your lens,
but through your boss's lensor through the company lens.
But to your point, ifthe company isn't clear,
that's going to trickledown to you not being clear.

It boils down to communication here,
this type of communicationin terms of closing the loop.
If you're hearing thingslike what are you doing,
give me a status report,like those kind of things,
like tell me everythingyou're doing or did this week
and you got to give a reporton Fridays, that either means
you're not communicating,or you're not communicating
the right information.

(18:14):
So your boss may be in apickle because their boss asked
for something and they don'thave the information from you.
And so now, they'rebeing put on the spot.
And so they cometo you in a tizzy,
wanting to know about a projector the status of something.
So that communication has togo up the chain and around
the chain, if youwill, because if people

(18:35):
don't know whatyou're doing, then
they're going to makesome assumptions.
And the assumptionsmay not be true,
like you're not doing anything.
So think this whole work fromhome, versus back in the office,
there's a lot ofthat going on now.
If I can't see you,I don't know what
you're doing, which isbaloney, because everything
should be results-based.
Am I getting you theresults you wanted?
Am I producingthe work you need?
But that's not how people work.

So if I'm getting the sense
that something is wrong-- andpeople are pretty intuitive.
People sort of sensesomething's not quite right.
Maybe they're beingasked multiple times
to do the same thing, andthey're like, I did that.
What are some of thethings that they might
be interpreting correctly?
And what are some of the thingsthat they might be blowing out
of proportion?
And when is therecause for concern?

I think if you're being asked multiple times
for the same thing,it's probably
more of a communicationissue, or maybe you're
just not doing the work.
Maybe you're notgetting it done.
Maybe you're not finishingthat report on time,
or maybe you're notfinishing that brief on time.
So part of it is makesure you're doing the job
that you were hired for.
Make sure you're doing thejob that you were hired

(19:39):
for well, because if you'regetting messages like that,
where you're beingasked multiple times
for the same thing,something's not right here.
Either you're not doing it, oryou're not communicating it,
or it wasn't whatyour boss wanted,
which is also acommunication issue.
That's kind of likethe price of admission
for doing well as an employeeand for being successful.
In the book that I'mworking on right now,

(19:59):
Set Yourself Up for Success,that is one of the things
that I thought was going tobe one of the top five skills.
And every person I interviewedsaid, no, you have to have that.
That's the price of admission.
You can't even getto the other skills
unless you can communicate well.
So I feel like getting tothe point where a PIP is even
a possibility, something'sgoing on in the communication.
Either you're not communicatingwhat you're doing,

(20:21):
or your boss is notcommunicating what they want.
Either way, it's a badrecipe all the way around.

When do you know if you're undercommunicating?
When are you overcommunicating?
Maybe you're annoying people.

I think if you've reached
the point of overcommunicating,which is rare--
but let's say you havereached that point
of becoming annoying-- you'regoing to see it in people.
So this goes back to read theroom and emotional intelligence,
which is one of thetop five skills,
to be able to read the roomand to be able to see that, see

(20:56):
people's expressions, seepeople cutting you off,
like I don't wantto hear that again,
or you've already said too much.
You've talked toomuch in this meeting.
So I think you justhave to plug in and see
how people are reacting.
Let's go back to the beingignored, ignore your emails,
and you're notgetting responses.
That could be another way ofyou've annoyed me to the point
where I'm not going to respond.

(21:18):
So I think you have to havesome self-awareness in there
to be able to ask the questions.
Am I overcommunicating?
Am I undercommunicating?
Is there a different wayyou'd like me to communicate?
Because if someone leaves me anemail, I personally hate email,
so I'd rather be communicatedby text or by phone.
And I know there's aperceived generation

(21:39):
gap in terms of peoplenot picking up the phone,
or not leaving voicemail, ornot even listening to voicemail.
So I think you just haveto really understand
the communication method thatis best received for the person
that you're speaking with.

So I think this is important,
and if you've gotany tips on how
to build thatemotional maturity,
how to be betterat reading the room
because it's not a skill thatyou're innately born with.
It's something that you actuallyhave to learn and pay attention
to people's facialexpressions and body motions,
as well as thewords that they say.
So how do you build thosekind of competencies.

I'm going to go back
to the be self-awarepart of what
we were talking aboutearlier, in terms of,
is that a skill you have?
Or is that somethingyou need to work on?
And there are classes on it.
I took a class early ondealing with difficult people.
I took a class earlyon in my career,
both at Sega and at Intuit, onnegotiations and negotiation

(22:40):
strategies and tactics.
And some of thesethings come naturally.
Some of them don't.
And if it comes naturallyto you, excellent.
If it doesn't, then seekout that kind of information
and that kind of resource.
And I do think practice--
go sit in a meeting and lookaround at people's expressions.
Are they engaged?
Are they leaning forward?
Are they leaning back?
Are they scrollingaway on their phone?

(23:01):
Are they checked out,looking out the window?
You can help yourself by justputting yourself in situations.

JILL FINLAYSON: Let's jump into it. (23:08):
undefined
You're looking downthe barrel of a PIP.
You've been told you're put ona performance improvement plan.
How should you react?
And how should younot let this sort
of blow up your worldand your self-esteem?

It's so easy to fall into that abyss
and wallow in the self-pity, andthe how is this happening to me,
and why is this happening to me.
I'm doing such a goodjob, all those things.
Somewhere in there,it's a wake up call.
So have the self-awarenessto really understand
what's being said to you.
Is it a way to get you out, oris it a way to really help you?

(23:43):
Even if it's a wayto get you out,
is it a way to get youout of the company?
Is it a way to get youout of that department,
out from under that person?
Or is it a way to trulyimprove what you're doing?
So you kind of have tobe self-aware enough
to read the situation.
What is this that's going on?

(24:03):
I think you also have tounderstand what your skills are
and what your weaknesses are.
If you're being asked to doa job, like I was at Intuit,
where the work isrepetitive, and that leads me
to boredom and disengagement,that's not a recipe for success.
So I learned kind of the hardway that I had to be engaged,

(24:27):
and I had to be in aposition where there
was something new all the time.
And then do you need toacknowledge the kernel of truth
in what's being said to you?
If you're gettingvague information,
like you're not a team player,what does that even mean?
But that is one of thethings that comes up.
Or, oh, you've been latethree times this week,

(24:49):
or you missed a meeting.
Well, yeah, I toldyou I was going to be
out at my kid's soccer game.
So yeah, I was goingto miss that meeting.
But I told you ahead of time.
That's different than ifyou keep missing something
and you've never set theexpectation that you're
going to miss something.
So I would say that haveto really understand,
is this a permanent fatal thing?
Or is this somethingthat's temporary,

(25:10):
like you can getbetter at communicating
that expectation of I'mgoing to miss this meeting?
Or is it somethingdifferent than that?
So I think going back tothat, knowing your strengths
and weaknesses.
So let's talk aboutaccountability for a second.
You have to be accountablefor your role in this.
It doesn't justhappen in a vacuum.
You didn't just get put on aPIP because your manager had

(25:32):
a bad day.
It's not like that.
So you do have to be accountableand take personal responsibility
for your role in this.
Also, going back to that,what's in it for me?
What's in it for you?
That context andthat bigger context.
If you're notproducing something
that your boss needsto succeed, that's
a mismatch in expectations.

(25:53):
That's fixable.
That's communication.
But if your skillis not something
that's needed for that role,then that's just not a fit.
So you want to know that.
So I think you have totake that kernel of truth,
you have to take personalresponsibility to figure it out.
Is it a match for you or not?
And then the lastpart of this is

(26:13):
if you are so emotionallydamaged from being on a PIP
in the first place that youcan't get through that shame
or embarrassment to even seeit for what it is, you've
got to do some soul searching.
I really want tounderstand this.
What does being ateam player mean?
What am I not doingthat you expect?
What am I doing that you didn'texpect and that's not helping?

(26:36):
I want the good andthe bad and the ugly.
I really want to understand whatI'm doing that's not working.
I really want to understandwhat I am doing that is working.
It's kind of hard to come withquestions when you're hurting,
or you've lost yourconfidence, or you
see this as a black mark that'sgoing to follow you around
forever and be on your permanentrecord, those bad thoughts.
I think you kind ofhave to take the moment,

(26:58):
wallow in theself-pity, and then let
it go, to move on to what's nextbecause if you're stuck in that,
it's not going to end well,so coming with a curious mind
and then being able tofigure out that context.
So how do I fit intothe organization?
How do I and the workthat I'm doing fit
into that and the objectiveswe have as a group
and as a company?
Because if you don't understandthat, it's really hard to figure

(27:21):
out what the successfactors are because that's
the last part of it, iswhat does success look like?
If I'm being put on thisPIP, what does success look
like to get me off of it?
Is it a month-long thing?
Is it a 90-day thing?
Is it-- if I'm a salesperson,and my sales numbers are down,
that's a prettyeasy measurement.
Yes, I met the criteria,or no, I didn't.

(27:43):
If you are in a different rolethat's much more subjective,
it's hard to define success.
So that's why I mean keepasking some questions that
are going to definethat for what
you in that particular PIPand what success looks like.

Yeah, I think another thing that I learned
through failurewas that you have
to think about how your actionscan affect your teammates,
how it can have atrickle-down effect.
So, for example, I was oftentrying to do a lot of things.
And so I realized that I wasn'tgiving people enough notice.
I wasn't giving themenough time to do the work

(28:16):
that they would need to do.
And it's because I wastrying to cram in more things
than I could do.
And so I wasn't reachingout to people earlier.
And I had to train myselfto reply to emails, even
if I wasn't ready toreply to the email.
I would reply by sayingI've received this.
Here's the general ideaof what I'm trying to do.
I don't have it final yet.

(28:36):
But at least I gavethem a heads up.
They had visibilityinto what was coming,
and they could do somepreparation on their part.
So I think there are somequestions you could ask about,
how does my workaffect my colleagues?
How might I help them tobe more successful as well?

Yeah, I think I want
to touch on somethingyou said in terms
of setting expectations.
So it's much different if I tellmy boss the day something's due
that I'm not going to haveit done, than if a week ahead
of time, I say,look, I'm traveling.
I've got this, that,and the other priority.
I'm not going to be able toget this done on the date

(29:12):
that you requested it.
What would be acceptable?
And then they can eitherreset your priorities for you,
or you have aconversation about it,
or you move the deadline basedon an expectation that you're
setting well aheadof time, as opposed
to springing it on someone.
So I think that's different.
So that setting expectationsis really important.
And I do think that havingthe bigger picture in terms

(29:34):
of how your work affectsyour boss or your colleagues
or people below you is reallyimportant, because if you don't
take all that intoconsideration,
it's going to lead to breakdownin communication and a breakdown
in trust, which ismuch harder to rebuild.

I'm reminded of another reason
I got put on a performanceimprovement plan.
I was working with pivot tables.
And I realized I wasvery uncomfortable
working with pivot tables.
And it was not somethingI'd been trained on.
And I was doing mybest to figure it out.
But you know what I never did?
I never asked for help.

(30:11):
I never asked for training.
I never asked for assistanceto learn the pivot tables.
So what kind ofresources should you
be asking for ifyou're on a PIP?

I think this is really important because this
goes back to thesuccess factors,
like, is thisreally meant to make
me more successfulas an employee
or put me in a position thatis more suited to my skills?
Or is this really meant tomove me out of the company,
make me miserableuntil I move out?
If resources are madeavailable to you,
you should availyourself to all of them
because that shows your interestin becoming better and becoming

(30:42):
a better fit in findingthat better fit.
So I think I told you aboutthe negotiations class.
So I've taken a few of those.
And as a lawyer, you wantto be able to negotiate.
But in daily life, it helps aswell because you're navigating--
every single day, you'renavigating something,
whether it's settingan expectation,
whether it's negotiating forFamily Medical Leave Act time,
whether it's negotiatinga better work assignment.

(31:06):
It's a constant skill.
So there were classes availableand I made the case of, hey,
I'd like the companyto pay for it.
And so I went inwith a plan to say,
these are the skills Ineed to do my job better.
Would you cover it?
And in that case,those were covered.
There are other things, likeassessments, like Myers-Briggs,
or StrengthsFinder or DiSC.

(31:27):
I think those are trulyhelpful to see where you
fit into that bigger picture.
If you're being asked to doa job that requires influence
and you're a driver, thosetwo skills are not a match.
You're not-- it'sgoing to be very
difficult to besuccessful in a job
where you need to influenceothers, like in a sales role,
than whether you're a CEO typerole or chief of staff type

(31:49):
role, where you're drivingto get something done
and you need to figure it out.
So I think that any and all ofthose tools and resources you
should avail yourself of.

That's really interesting
because if you knowwhat you're good at,
this gives you a little bit morecontrol in a situation that you
have no control over.
You're in a performanceimprovement plan.
But if you can go in with astrategy, if you can go in with,
here's what I'm good at.
How might we utilize theskills that I'm better at?

(32:21):
That's hard to dowhen somebody's
saying you're not good,you're not good at your job,
you're not delivering.
But I like that ownershipof it, going into this.
So you're already in the PIP.
What are the things youcan do during the PIP
to ensure whether you decideyou want to stay there or not?
What should you bedoing during the PIP?

There's the letter of the page.
So there's the wordthat's written down
on the page of the PIP.
So you kind of have toplay the game for what
you're being expected to do.
So if it says you need to do aweekly report every Friday that
tells me everythingyou've done this week,
then you're going to have todo the report every Friday

(33:04):
and tell them whatyou've done that week.

Even if you don't want to.

Even if you don't want to.
Yeah, you kind ofhave to play the game.
And don't mean to pay lipservice to doing that.
This helps you sussout whether it's really
about finding a fit foryou or whether it's trying
to push you out the door.
So this is another way to helpdiscover that, if you will.

(33:33):
So the other thingthat playing the game
gives you is it helps youbide your time if you're going
to go find a different job.
And I mean this two ways,find a different job
in the same company,or find a different job
outside of the company.
Playing the game anddoing what's asked

(33:54):
is going to help you do thatmore smoothly because you don't
want to just be laid off,which happened to me as well,
because then it'snot your choice.
And that's a wholedifferent set of emotions.
But if you are giventhe chance to improve,
I think take the chance toimprove, and at the same time,
if you're getting the messageof this is not going to work,
like this company is not for me.

(34:14):
It's not a match in values.
It's not a match for my skills.
I just need to findsomething else.
Then use it as an opportunityto foster the relationships
that you have, at the sametime, looking for a better fit.

Let's talk about the end game.
So you have completed your PIP.
What then?

At that point in time,
you're either going tobe doing the same job,
you will have talked yourselfinto a different job,
or you will have left.
So let's say you'vesuccessfully come off
your PIP in your same position.
You still have to fix theproblems that got you there.
So if it was acommunication issue,
you got to bevigilant about that.
If it was an expectationsetting issue,

(34:54):
you got to bevigilant about that.
If it was a fit,then you got to be
vigilant about buildingthe skills that
keep it a fit or move to arole that is a better fit.
So I think all of thosethings still come into play.

What if you do want to leave?
You want to go to another job.
You want to find a jobthat's a better fit for you.
But you're veryworried that you're not
going to get a letterof recommendation
because you've been on a PIP.

I think at that point in time
you have to focuson what you did well
and ask for a referencethat relate to those skills
that you shined with orthe work that you did well.
And I think you're going to haveto come up with some examples
because you're going to haveto set that path up for success
with your boss and withwhoever put you on the PIP
because it's an opportunity tosay, I do these things great.

(35:39):
This was not a fit for me.
If it required thatrepetitive work for me,
then you could admit that.
Ask for a reference thatrelates to the strength.
And you are going to have toadmit that kind of weakness
when you are in theinterview process.
So those kind of thingswill be sussed out there.
But I also think this requires--back to the self-advocacy
thing--
it is going to requireyou to ask for that.

(36:01):
And they may not becomfortable with that.
You may have to just say,name, rank, serial number,
or give the dates of employment,and don't say anything else.
But I really would like areference that's positive
related to these two skills.
And so you have toput it out there.

I would add that there
are people thatyou work well with,
and there are other people thatyou can go to references for.
It doesn't always have tobe your boss, so thinking
about that 360 of otherpeople that you've maybe
been effective at collaboratingwith because oftentimes,
maybe there's oneperson you don't want
to ask for that recommendation.

(36:35):
But there might beseveral other people
who are colleagues or peoplewho reported to you, as
opposed to your supervisor.
Do you think those wouldbe effective alternatives?

I do think they're effective alternatives, to be
able to ask someonewho reported to you
of how were theyas a boss or how
were they at managing a team.
That informationcan be valuable.
I also think that peoplethat you worked with--
I worked with acouple other teams
as a lawyer supportingthose teams than I ever
did with my own boss becauseit was more of a legal

(37:08):
had to report somewhere.
But the work actuallyhappened with teams,
more like collaborations,as opposed to reporting to.
And so those collaborationscan be much more illustrative
of your skills.

And that kind of leads me
to my next question, which isthis experience takes a toll.
What does recovery look like?
And what does it taketo feel good again?
How long does ittake to feel OK?

I think that's going to depend on the person
and how much a surprise it was.
The more of a surprise, theharder hit it's going to feel,
and the harder it is to recover.
And I also think, did you havea high level of self-confidence
before this?
It's going to be easierto get back to that
than it is if you didn't havea high level of confidence
in the first place.
So assessments willhelp with that.

(37:52):
Skills inventorywill help with that,
to really understand whatyour superpowers are, really
understanding whatyour career skills
that you've gained over time.
So it's a little bitmore than an inventory.
It's really understandingwhat those superpowers are.
And if you didn't havea career roadmap--
like I mentioned, thepeople that worked for me,
I always wanted themto have a roadmap.

(38:13):
I didn't want them to just bidetheir time doing something.
I wanted them to have aroadmap in how the job
they had fit into thatand then what skills
did we need to help them build.
Let's say that youdon't have that.
I would say, use this as anopportunity to build that
and put one togetherfor yourself.
And last, I thinkany of the things
that you can do if there'san outplacement-- let's

(38:34):
say you got laidoff, or let's say
they're going to lay you off--ask for those kind of resources
if they're available.
Sometimes companies haveoutplacement firms on retainer,
so they are available, evenif you're not being laid off.
Ask for those kind of resources.
Also, communication at thispoint is really important.
Surrounded yourself withsupporters and people
who see your brilliancebecause those
are the people that aregoing to help you back

(38:56):
to that level of confidence.
And I think really understandingwhat your skills are
and that you have beensuccessful in the past
and remembering thatis a key to getting
over the emotionalwallop that a PIP can be.

Give me a couple of activities on how you
can identify your superpower.
Who can help you seeyourself in a way
that you can't see yourself?

I think that one of the things I wrote about
in my first book, Welcometo the Next Level,
is doing an exercisecalled Every Job.
And when I got laidoff from my first job,
they gave usoutplacement services.
And I never availedmyself of them.
But I kept the materials.
And then when I could actuallyread them and digest them,

(39:42):
when I wasn't soemotionally distraught,
then I could actually seehow helpful they were.
So this Every Job exercise isa riff on one of the things
I learned in that process.
And it's basically write downevery job you've ever had,
from the minute you made adime, whether it's babysitting,
or delivering newspapers,or mowing your neighbor's
lawn till now.
And you'll be able to see themesand things that are attractive

(40:06):
and things that are a no-gothroughout your career.
And I worked with some highschoolers and some college
students, and thisgoes for you, too.
It's not just 30 yearsinto your career.
It is any kind of activity, sovolunteer activity or leadership
activity on a sportsteam, for example.
What did you like about it?
What did you not like about it?

(40:27):
What did you learn?
What did you reallylook forward to.
All of those kind ofquestions can give you
clues as to what is goingto be a fit for you.

So really taking this time
to understand where youshine, where you struggle,
and trying to find thejob or the role that
has more emphasis on thethings that you're good at.
How do you look atjob descriptions
now, when you're looking at themto see if they would be a fit?

That is so tough because you
can read a job description andsay, wow, this looks amazing.
This looks like a greatfit for what I have.
And then you talkto them, and it's
like it's a completelydifferent role.
So you kind of have to readbetween the lines for job
descriptions.
And also I'm of themind apply for it,
find out more information.

(41:14):
Don't count yourselfout when you
don't know enough information.
I figured job descriptionsare someone's view
as to what the position may be.
It may not be actually what'strue on a day-to-day basis.

So you've been, of course,
on both sides of this fence.
I believe you've had to, as yousaid earlier, coach people out
of their role.
Can you speak fromthe employer side
on what are thealternatives to doing a PIP?
How can you help youremployees find fit?

My philosophy is it's better
to use the people youhave working for you
now than it is to go outand recruit someone else.
It's much more expensiveand time consuming
to do that recruiting.
So how can I make this personsuccessful where they are?
If that's not possible, then I'mgoing to ask more questions of,
are you happy in your job?
Is this reallyworking out for you?
And if not, then let's havean honest conversation of what

(42:05):
do you think would be better?
Do you need a monthto find another job?
Do you need totake some time off?
Do you-- I thinkthere are more humane
ways to go about it thanputting someone on a PIP
that doesn't make sense.

Yeah, if you're not committed to their success,
why are you forcing themto go through these hoops?

Exactly.
I was much more likelyto counsel people
out than to put anyone on a PIP.

So for the individual,
they probably shouldn't justbe waiting this out or waiting
for something to happen to them.
What is your advicefor an individual who's
maybe feeling stuck in theirjob or aren't advancing
as they would like to see oraren't getting the recognition
that they would like to see?

Yeah, I think it's really important
to take personal responsibilitybecause no one is going
to manage your career for you.
You are the one thathas control over it.
You know yourself best.
And if you don'tknow yourself, there
are assessmenttools out there that
can help you digdeeper, even just
being reflective on whatI like about this job
and don't like about thisjob, that every job exercise
I mentioned, can helpilluminate what you like.

(43:06):
I think also, what projectsdo you gravitate towards?
What kind of people doyou gravitate towards?
What kind of projectsreally light you up?
What kind of projectsmake you go, ugh,
I don't want to do that today?
Because both of those will giveyou clues on what works for you.
And if it's notworking out, then
take responsibilityand go find something
that is a betterfit because I think

(43:27):
people want people who wantto be there working for them.

Yeah, and it'll take some time
to find another thing.
And so if you're just going towait until things get really bad
and then you startlooking, you're
going to be frustrated bythe length of time it takes
to find a better fitting job.

And I think it's always easier
to come from aposition of power when
you have a job,looking for a job,
rather than being unemployed,looking for a job.
That desperation can seepin and that I need money
to pay rent or my mortgage.
That mindset can reallyseep into your approach,
whereas if you're takingpersonal responsibility
and ownership of it and you'recontrolling the timeline,

(44:07):
that gives you more powerto assess the situation
and find a better fit.
I see people taking jobs--
I just need a job--that's not a fit.
And frankly, when Itook the job at Intuit,
that's the position I was in.
I really wanted to moveto the business side,
and I took another jobin the legal field.
And so it was my version of justtaking another job because I

(44:28):
had a mortgage to pay.
I didn't have any kids at thetime, but that's why I took it.
And it was just like, well,yeah, you can do the job.
But it may not be the best fit.
And so it just took me a littlewhile to figure that out.
So if you find yourselfin that position,
or you've been given thatwake-up call of a PIP,
even if you come offof it, it's still
a wake up call for you tosay, something didn't work.

(44:49):
Don't let it go off therails this far next time.
Take control of it anddo something about it
while you can froma position of power.

Yeah, so two more specific questions
about the individual.
Oftentimes whenyou're not satisfied,
you're very muchfocused on yourself.
And that comes acrossto the employer.
They notice that you're notthinking about the company
and the organization.
And then the otherthing that can
happen if thingsaren't going well,
you become kind of risk averse.
You don't want to takethose stretch assignments.

(45:15):
So what are some things youcan do to coach yourself
into a growth mindset?

Yeah, I think the opportunity
to chat with your bossand with colleagues
in terms of getting theirfeedback about your work
in the context ofreally understanding
how the work that you're doingfits into the bigger picture.
So getting that feedbackfrom other people,
including your boss,including colleagues,
or including peopleyou work with,

(45:42):
can be really helpfulin that situation.
I think the other part iswhen you take an active role
in your career or in beingsuccessful in the role
that you're in,people notice that.
And so that's a wayto work yourself out
of the emotional distress, ifyou will, of being on a PIP,
is like, wow, I reallywant to do a good job here.

(46:04):
What needs to be done first?
Or here's what I'mthinking needs to be done.
Do you agree?
So taking thatactive, proactive role
can be important atthat point in time.

JILL FINLAYSON: Also, people have (46:13):
undefined
lives outside of the workplace.
And I think one ofyour 360 activities
where you're collecting thatfeedback about your performance
is with people outside of work.
And I remember oneof my colleagues
thought she wasn't a leader.
And everyone around hersaw her as a leader.
So you don't necessarilyhave a good mirror
to hold up to yourselfif you're just

(46:34):
trying to assess on your own.

Yeah, I think that level of self-awareness,
it's a spectrum.
And you want to be where you canbe self-aware enough to gather
this information yourself.
Or if you realizeyou're not, then you
do need to seek out others'opinion and feedback.
I have an adjectiveexercise that I use too.
And I just turned it into aGoogle survey or a Google form

(46:56):
or whatever, and Ijust sent it to--
I don't know.
I sent it to 15 people, andI asked for their feedback.
Some people do it anonymously.
Some people do itwith their name on it.
And some people add information.
It's very simple.
It has two questions.
Which of these adjectiveswould apply to me?
And then is there anythingthat's not on this list
that you think applies to me?

(47:17):
Then I gave that to people.
And one of the words thatcame back was collaborative.
And I mentioned, I'm a driver,and I like to get stuff done.
And I'm like chiefof staff mentality.
And I leave peoplein my wake because I
didn't take the emotionaleffects into consideration.
And so I was very surprisedto see the word collaboration

(47:39):
on there.
And when I asked acouple people about it
who put their names onthe survey, they said,
you asked my opinion, and youcare deeply about the answer.
And so I feel like youcollaborate with me, even if you
don't do what I suggested.
And so I was like, OK.
So it's in the message.
And it's in how you ask, asopposed to just the end result.
And so sometimes I'm sofocused on the end result,

(48:00):
I forget about theprocess to get there.
So that was informationfor me that I
was doing some of thatwork, but not everywhere.
So I thought itwas super helpful.

So this is November.
It's Thanksgiving.
This is a big timefor gratitude.
How can you have gratitudewhen you're feeling stuck
or you're on a PIP?
How do you contextualizethis with your life?

I think it's really important
to be grateful for thefeedback that you receive.
It's information.
It's a piece of information.
It's not everything.
But it is a piece ofinformation that can be helpful.
And then I think, begrateful for the opportunity
to make a change and totake control, as opposed
to having it imposed on you.

(48:43):
So I would say that evenif you are put on a PIP,
look at it that way,in terms of it's
an opportunity to getfeedback, and it's
an opportunity for you to takebetter control of the situation.

Yeah, it's the opportunity
to pivot, maybe to pivotsomething more aligned
with your interests and skills.
It's an opportunity to closeone door and open a new door.
Even if it's not theperfect new door,
it's kind of a new pathway.
And I always say change good.
And I know a lot ofpeople say change bad.
I'm very much a fan of changegood and putting yourself

(49:15):
in a situation where you'regoing to have an opportunity
to learn new things, beperceived in a new way
by a new group of people.
And I do see that PIPas being a catalyst,
almost, to say, hey,you're settling.
You're settling for somethingthat isn't right for you.

Yeah think it was the George Clooney movie, Up
in the Air, wherehe was a person who
had to come in and do layoffs.
And one of the guys is like,I really want to be a chef.
And then he went onto do that, as opposed
to working in the factoryor whatever it he was doing,
went on to do thejob of his dreams.
And I would say usethat as an opportunity
to do that for yourself becausethe last job I got laid off from

(49:52):
was 10 years ago.
And I used that as anopportunity to move
to consulting and coaching.
And so that's what I've beendoing for the last 10 years.
And so that layoff, whileit stung at the time,
really made adifference and pushed
me to find a betterfit in terms of what
I wanted to do formyself and the people
that I wanted to help.

So what are your final words
of advice for self-care thrivinginside and outside the office?

Yeah, I think know yourself.
So being able to thrive,whether it's in the career
that you're in or on the onethat you're about to be in,
because you'vebeen put on a PIP,
and now you'regoing to be leaving,
or you got laid off,or fired, know yourself
and what it takes for you tothrive, whether it's in the job
or whether it's outside thejob, outside the office,

(50:40):
because you only have one life.
Use it well.

And did your PIP lead to something better?
Did you go on tosomething better?

The one and only PIP I was on, yes.
It gave me information tobuild better relationships.
And so one of thepieces and the change
that I made for good in that wasto build better relationships,
set expectationsbetter, and communicate
more clearly and more often.

Well, thank you so much for joining us, Sonya.
It's been superenlightening to open
the door on this conversationthat nobody wants to talk about.

It's an important topic.
And I'm so glad you asked me tocome on and talk about it today.

Thanks so much.
And with that, I hopeyou enjoyed this latest
in a long series ofpodcasts that we'll
be sending your way each month.
Please share withfriends and colleagues
who may be interested in takingthis Future of Work journey
with us.
And make sure to check outextension.berkeley.edu to find
a variety of coursesto help you thrive
in this new working landscape.
And to see what's comingup at EDGE in Tech,

(51:38):
go ahead and visitedge.berkeley.edu.
Thanks so much forlistening, and we'll
be back next month tocontinue our journey
on the Future of Work.
The Future of Work podcastis hosted by Jill Finlayson,
produced by Sarah Benzuly,and edited by Matt Dipietro.
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