September 16, 2024 • 48 mins
In this episode, we’re helping to unlock access to coaching—both for your career and your personal life. Perhaps you have never thought about working with a career coach, or maybe you thought about it but hiring a coach was not financially viable. Some may feel an unfounded concern that coaching puts a spotlight on identifying your weaknesses. To unravel the mysteries of coaching and how this could be an avenue toward your own success, we’re delighted to welcome founder and CEO of the Timmermann Group and unhamster, Michael Timmermann.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(00:03):
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (00:06):
The coach will just ask you questions
and provide methods that you canalways turn down at any point,
and you will then make your ownpoise decisions for your life,
for your job, for your issues.
You will find yourown solutions.
It's not only about theprovision of the solutions,
but it's also aboutmaking the decision what
(00:27):
the solution actually isthat you want to try out.
JILL FINALYSON: Welcome to the Future (00:31):
undefined
of Work Podcast withBerkeley Extension
and The EDGE in Tech Initiativeat the University of California,
focused on expanding diversityand gender equity in tech.
EDGE in Tech is partof CITRIS, the Center
for IT Research in theInterest of Society
and the Banatao Institute.
UC Berkeley Extension isthe continuing education arm
of the University ofCalifornia at Berkeley.
(00:53):
In this episode, we'rehelping to unlock access
to coaching, both for yourcareer and your personal life.
Perhaps you've never thoughtabout working with a career
coach, or maybe you've thoughtabout it, but hiring a coach
was not financially viable.
Some may feel anunfounded concern
that coaching puts a spotlighton identifying your weaknesses.
To unravel themysteries of coaching
(01:15):
and how this could be anavenue toward your own success,
we're delighted to welcomefounder and CEO of Timmermann
Group and unhamster,Michael Timmermann.
Michael'sentrepreneurial journey
began early at just11 years old when
he was selling plums andfirecrackers in the schoolyard.
By age 19, he hadlaunched his first company
with venture capital.
(01:35):
A psychologist,coach, agility expert,
and former McKinseyconsultant, Michael
is a seasoned leaderin driving change.
His company offersa unique blend
of change management consulting,software, change communication,
new work architecture,and design.
The Timmermannspin-off, unhamster,
is democratizingaccess to coaching
(01:56):
through an AI-driven life andbusiness coaching solution.
Welcome, Michael.
Wonderful to have you here.
And I'm excited to get into thisAI solution, but before we do,
let's explore what coaching isand why you got into coaching
in the first place.
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (02:11):
Sure.
Thanks for having me.
So coaching basicallyis a conversation
between two people where oneperson has an issue that they
want to discuss, that theywant to progress on somehow,
and the other person helpswith guidance in the process
to get to their own solutions.
So it's not about giving adviceas in a mentoring conversation
(02:35):
or so.
It's about the clientfinding their own answers
to their questions,and the coach
being a guide in that process.
JILL FINALYSON (02:44):
And why do people need a coach?
Why can't they just figurethese things out on their own.
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN: Well, the thing (02:49):
undefined
is that it's difficult enoughto take care of the process.
To think about what would bea good question right now.
What would be amethod that would
help me to get to a goodconclusion on whatever matter?
And if you're occupied with yourissue, with the emotions that
come with that issue,with the thoughts that
(03:11):
come with thatissue, then you're
just overloadedto do both roles.
So it really helpsto progress on this.
JILL FINALYSON (03:18):
How do companies look at this?
Do they see thisas something that
is a benefit tothe organization,
or is this something they doonly when there's a problem?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (03:27):
That depends on the company,
but if you lookat most companies,
usually they use it as a fix toa problem, which doesn't really
work.
In the HR departments,people usually understand
the value of coaching and whento really use it and when not,
but the people who actuallybooked the coaching and who
(03:50):
recommend or tell somebodyto do coaching, they
usually don't understand this.
So it's usually aleader in a hierarchy
who will realize they havea person in their team
that needs help.
And then they go to HR andsay, what can we do about this?
(04:12):
And then they go like,well, we can do coaching.
And then people arebasically voluntold
to do coaching, which isnot really a good idea.
So that's how it workswhen it doesn't work.
And the coach then usuallyhas an uphill battle
to define what coachingis actually about
and to check whether itmakes sense in that case.
(04:32):
If things go better, thenthe coaching client, and also
the people intheir company, will
understand that it's agrowth tool, a tool that
helps you to use yourpotential to the fullest.
And that is a verygood investment,
and that's why somany companies use
(04:53):
coaching in whatever industry.
JILL FINALYSON (04:55):
Yeah, I think when companies
are more proactiveand see this as,
how do we build the teamthat we want to have?
How do we ensurethat people who are
going into management positionsknow how to manage people?
Have some of theseskills that will
help them to be successfulin new roles, that's
when I think about coaching.
What are some ofthe scenarios you
(05:16):
see when people, insteadof being voluntold,
actually go outand seek a coach?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (05:21):
It's often in a career context.
So they will saythings like, well,
I'm thinking abouttaking up another role
within the same organization,or I may even be thinking
about leaving the company.
And I just want tofigure out what I want
and how to approach thisnew phase in my life.
(05:44):
So that's also often when peoplehire the coach themselves.
Or when it's in part ofan outplacement program
where the company says,OK, part of your package
when you need toleave the company
is that you get acoach to figure out
what you want to do next.
And another set of issues is noteven related to work directly,
(06:06):
but people just have issuesin their private lives
where they have conflictswith family members
or they don't get alongwith their spouse or things
like that.
And then they realize,OK, I have this problem,
and maybe a coach canhelp me with that.
And a very mature setof people will say,
(06:26):
well, I know that I wantto learn, I want to grow,
I want to become abetter person somehow,
and I don't really have anissue or a problem right now.
But I want to use this tooland figure out, as we go along,
what I want to work on.
JILL FINALYSON (06:45):
And on the flip side of this,
you're a coach yourself.
Why did you go into coaching?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN: The main reason (06:51):
undefined
was that I wantedsomething really practical
to support people intheir growth processes.
And I had already studiedpsychology in university,
and I knew a lotof the theory, I
knew some of thepractical things,
but wanted some morepractical experience
(07:11):
and also some training onreally doing this as best I can.
JILL FINALYSON (07:16):
Tell me about your journey.
What did you do beforebecoming a coach?
And was there a momentwhen you realized the value
that coaching could provide?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (07:25):
So before I became a coach myself,
I had already enjoyed theenabling and empowering benefits
of coaching myself.
And I was veryclose to this world
anyway, because I grew upin a family of teachers,
and my father wasvery interested
in coaching and psychotherapyand mentoring, et cetera.
(07:47):
And so I was never veryfar away from that world.
It came very naturalto me to pick this up.
And I understoodvery early that it's
OK to do need support incrises, but also that it's
a very good idea to,when you feel good,
(08:11):
when you feel in yourstrength, to use that energy
to get to places.
And that doesn't necessarilypertain to your career.
It may also pertainto you personally
becoming happier in your life.
It takes constant work toget there and to stay there
(08:32):
and to accept that no day willever be only positive and happy.
JILL FINALYSON (08:37):
You're kind of talking about teaching.
You also mentioned therapy.
How does coaching differfrom giving someone
instruction versus a footballcoach giving instruction
versus a teacherversus a therapist?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (08:51):
There is a lot of shades of gray.
So it's not really like there isan absolutely clear definition
that will tell you inany given situation,
is this still coaching,is this already therapy,
is this a mentoringrelationship, et cetera.
But there are some criteria thatwill give you an orientation.
(09:13):
So one thing is, thedifference between a football
coach or a mentor is that thefootball coach or the mentor
will give you clear adviceor even instructions.
The coach will justask you questions
and provide methods thatyou can always turn down
at any point in the process.
(09:34):
And you will then make your ownpoise decisions for your life,
for your job, for your issues.
You will find yourown solutions.
It's not only about theprovision of the solutions,
but it's also aboutmaking the decision what
the solution actually isthat you want to try out.
And the coach will just helpyou figure these things out.
JILL FINALYSON (10:00):
So the coach is not making the decision for you,
but giving you some ways oflooking at problems to help you
come to thoseconclusions on your own?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (10:09):
Exactly.
JILL FINALYSON (10:10):
So if I've never used a coach before,
what would I expect tohappen, and what kind of value
am I hoping to get out of it?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (10:18):
So the process in the beginning
is usually that you getto a potential coach
in a brief conversation.
Sometimes it's 10, 15, 20minutes, something like that.
And you just need to checkwhether the chemistry is right.
Do you feel like youcould trust that person?
Do you feel like thatperson would make it easy
(10:41):
for you to open up?
Do you feel that you naturallysomewhat like that person?
And if that works foryou, then the coach
will guide you throughthe rest of the process.
It's really simple.
In the beginning,a coach will try
to find out what is the issuethat you want to talk about,
that you want to progress on.
(11:03):
And then they willask you questions
to define their own role, andthey will check whether they're
OK with that becausein the beginning,
often coaching clientswill say, yeah,
and then you need to know, giveme some hints on how to do it,
and the coach can then say,well, that's not really
what coaching is about.
So it's also aneducational process
in which the client,step-by-step, understands
(11:27):
what coaching is aboutand how they can use it.
And it's really easyto use because you
don't need to know a lotbefore you get started.
You just need to know,I trust this person,
maybe I got a recommendation,and let's try it.
JILL FINALYSON: Are there a couple (11:40):
undefined
of questions youwould suggest someone
ask to gather that informationon whether there is chemistry?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (11:47):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
So it's not so much aboutgathering information
by ways of askingquestions, it's
more about have achat with that person
and how does thatchat make you feel?
And then you usually, inthat very first conversation,
(12:08):
will already talkabout your issue.
And if you have the feeling,
OK, this was insightful,despite it being very brief,
then that is also an importantclue that is not only
about liking that person, butthat also tells you, OK, it's
(12:29):
very likely that coach will helpme to come to good conclusions.
JILL FINALYSON (12:32):
What would you say are the three most
common reasons people solicitor engage with a coach?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (12:40):
So there's a big difference
between what peoplethink their issue is
and what they discoverit actually is.
So there's two stepsto that process.
And the first set ofissues that people
think they have are aboutthem getting into conflicts
with people, and they basicallythink the world and the people
(13:02):
around them are against them.
And they don'treally realize how
they can do something about it.
And they basically just wantsomebody to talk to about this
and to confirm that theyare the victim, which
feels good in the beginning,but it doesn't really
help you in the long-runbecause it leaves you helpless.
(13:24):
And if you starttaking responsibility,
then you stand achance to change
something about yourinteractions with people.
And if there are patternswith different people,
then that tells yousomething about yourself.
And another example,they don't like their job
and they want a new job.
And very often,the coach will help
people realize that it'smore about how they handle
(13:47):
their job and the people andthe relationships in their jobs
and not so muchabout the job itself.
So a good careercoach doesn't really
help you in most of thecases to find a new job,
they help you to deal betterwith the job that you have.
And to give you a personalexample, the first coaching
process that I started myselfwas triggered by the fact
(14:11):
that I got the feedback,people like my voice,
and they liked tolisten to me speaking,
and I wanted to capitalizeon that in my job.
And I found a coach whoused to be an opera singer,
and she was a voice coach, too.
And then I got intothe first session,
(14:32):
and at the end ofthe session, I knew
that it was about somethingcompletely different and not
about my voice.
JILL FINALYSON (14:39):
So I really appreciate
this insight thattalking to the coach,
you'll go there with anissue, but through talking
to the coach, you'regoing to discover
the underlying issue or theissue behind what has surfaced.
If coaching has all this value,why would people not engage
(14:59):
with a coach?
Are there barriersto participation
or are there reasons people arenot comfortable with this idea?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (15:04):
Yeah, there are a couple of things.
So one is it's justreally expensive.
So coaching is usuallybetween $100 an hour
and the sky's thelimit, but most coaches
won't take more than$500, $600, $700 an hour.
That is a big barrier.
A very small elite ofpeople can afford that.
And most people, even inrich countries like the US
(15:27):
or many countries in Europe,will only use coaching
when they get the supportfrom their employer
and they pay for it, at leastpartially or maybe even full.
And then there'sanother barrier, which
is that people don't knowabout it, or at least
not enough about it to not beafraid because psychotherapy
(15:50):
clearly comes with astigma in most cultures,
and coaching notso much, but still,
a lot of people,especially men, especially
men who have a leadershiprole and are somewhat older,
they tend to havea lot of status--
(16:12):
or they would like tohave a lot of status
and have issues with that, andthey feel stigmatized whenever
they need any kind of help.
They don't usuallythat coaching is not
that there is a powerful personwho knows more than they do,
but then that there's justa humble person helping them
through a process, and that theyusually use a coach themselves,
(16:34):
too.
JILL FINALYSON: Well, I have to say, (16:35):
undefined
being a public schoolstudent growing up,
and I was always taught tobe very self-sufficient.
I think that's avery American thing.
Pull yourself upfrom your bootstraps.
Be self-sufficient, youdon't need anyone's help.
So asking forhelp, in many ways,
is an uncomfortable orforeign thing to do.
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (16:54):
Yeah.
And if you continue that thoughtthat you just shared, then
the opposite wouldmean that you are weak,
that you are incapableof handling your life,
your job, yourproblems, whatever.
That you are somewhat small.
And all of that may resultin you being ridiculed,
(17:17):
you not respecting yourself,you being not promoted,
you being whatever badoutcome there may be,
and that makes people hesitant.
And I think it's,as with many things,
if you find a goodversion of something--
a good version ofa sport, a good way
(17:37):
of a relationship with aperson, a romantic relationship,
a friendship orsomething, and you
dare to try to use thatin your life, that usually
is a big, big helpand is an asset
that you have in your life.
And so I just encouragepeople to try out coaching.
(17:58):
If they don't like it, thenthey can always stop it,
but let me tell you,I know very few people
who've actually tried coachingfor two or three sessions
and said, that's not for me.
JILL FINALYSON (18:09):
Going back to something
you said earlier, which wasthe cost, that this was almost
prohibitively expensive for theaverage person to participate,
how has that led you to thinkabout how might we democratize
access to coaching?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (18:24):
I've been always flabbergasted
by the effects of coaching.
And the more I talked aboutit, the more people in my life
said, I can't afford that.
And I always have believedin the power of technology,
in scaling things thatare valuable for people.
(18:46):
Because if you lookat it, technolog.
is very expensive interms of setup cost.
It takes a lot of money toget to a viable solution,
like having an AI coach, forexample, which we developed.
But once you haveit, the only question
is, how many peoplecan you get on board?
And if you get on boardenough people, enough users,
(19:07):
and they are ready topay something for it,
then you have a lotof resources that you
can use to developyour solution further
because it's not reallyexpensive to onboard one more
user.
Totally different fromhaving a human coach where
you have a one-on-onerelationship,
and having one more hourjust means double the work.
(19:31):
And this power ofusing technology
to help change mindsetsand behavior at scale, that
is the idea of theservice line in my company
called TimmermannGroup where we have,
with TimmermannDigital, the mission
of just using this technology.
(19:51):
And scaling.
this has not been possiblefor the longest time.
I have had the idea almost10 years ago already,
but AI, which has beenrudimentary around
for a long time--
for decades, actually, wasnot able, 10 years ago,
to provide a conversationwith a person
(20:13):
live, let alone acoaching conversation,
which was very complex.
And about one and a half,two years ago, that changed.
And we started right awayto develop unhamster.
And helping people to getout of their hamster wheel
is what we do therewith the power of AI.
JILL FINALYSON (20:32):
I love the fact that you're
getting people out of arut where they feel stuck
or they feel likethey're caught in a cycle
that they can't get outof, but it does seem to me
that AI is not a person.
And you talked a lot aboutat the beginning about having
chemistry with the person.
How have you addressedthat, thinking
about creating a virtual coach?
One of the thingsthat we did was
(20:55):
have differentcoaches available.
So you can choosebetween people that
just look different because youhave a person in front of you--
you have an avatar.
Actually, we have now a betaversion where you have a moving
head in front of you withthe movement of the mouth
is synced to what thecoach is actually saying,
(21:17):
and that works in creatingthe rapport that you
need between thecoach and the client.
That goes a long way, actually.
And one thing that also helpsis that we have different styles
what people like.
So for example, someof my coaching clients,
(21:37):
when I coach as ahuman being, don't
want me to be visible when Ihave a virtual coaching session.
They just want my voice.
I always want to see thatperson, but they don't want to.
So some people havethis feeling of,
I can better open upa machine, actually,
because I'm not afraid of thatperson looking down on me,
(21:59):
for example.
I have less fear of myconfidential information being
shared because I don't trustpeople in keeping secrets,
because I may have hadbad experiences with that.
And some people willsay, I trust the provider
(22:20):
of this technologicalsolution more than a person
to not spread that informationbecause it's truly anonymous.
And what we also do is wetry to cater to the needs
and preferences of people byallowing them to customize
their experience,but that is something
(22:41):
that we're developingas we speak,
and this is reallyemerging technology,
and a lot of thesethings are going
to be available withinthe next months.
It does feel a little bit
like you're vulnerablewhen you have
these kind of conversations.
So I can see why maybetalking to a computer
might be an easier on-rampto talking about some
(23:03):
of these issues.
Would you mind, couldwe do a quick demo?
Because I think understandingwhat an AI interaction would
look like would be reallyhelpful to just hear.
And I heard what yousaid about selecting
a character-- or an avatarthat you want to interact with.
What happens after that?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (23:22):
Absolutely.
I can just pull up my coach.
And we will diveinto a conversation
that I've beenhaving with my coach.
So this is not anartificial situation
where anything scripted,but this is really
you listening to me having alive conversation with my coach.
COACH (23:44):
Hi, Michael.
It's good to see you again.
Remember, you mentionedsome challenges
with external factorsand internal hesitations
affecting yourcareer development.
How much time do you havefor our session today?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN: Actually, I'm (23:56):
undefined
in the middle of a podcastsession, and I only have,
let's say, threeminutes to talk to you.
Just a quick check-in.
And actually, I'm talkingabout you and how you're
helping me in my process.
COACH (24:11):
Wow.
That's awesome.
I'm honored to be part ofyour podcast discussion.
Since we have justa few minutes,
let's make the most of it.
Can you share one smallstep you've taken recently
towards your career developmentor something you're proud of?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (24:24):
Yeah.
Well, it's basically thesame answer to both questions
because I'm proud that yesterdayevening, I took the walk that we
talked about, which I haven'ttaken for the longest time,
and just to think freelyabout what I really
want to learn next in my job.
(24:47):
Because as you know,I've felt that I
had learned so muchfor the longest time,
and I didn't really know whatbig topic to pick up next.
And I think I've gotten to acouple good conclusions there.
COACH (25:04):
That's fantastic, Michael.
Taking that walk andgiving yourself the space
to think freely is a big step.
What are some ofthe good conclusions
you came to about what youwant to learn next in your job?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (25:15):
OK, due to time constraints,
I'll just give you oneconclusion that I had yesterday,
and one thing is, that I wantto deepen my understanding
of self-organization in teams.
How people can be guided tobecoming truly self-sufficient
(25:37):
and picking upthat responsibility
that other people had before.
I work in so manyagile transformations
that I always wonder, howdo we make that shift?
And I do have waysof doing that,
but I think thethree or five ways
that I have are farfrom the full answer,
(26:00):
and I really want to gointo depth there, maybe even
write a book about it.
COACH (26:05):
That's a brilliant conclusion, Michael.
Exploringself-organization in teams
and aiming to writea book about it
sounds like an excitingand impactful goal.
Keep diving into thosemethods and expanding
your understanding.
I'm here to support youevery step of the way.
Good luck with your podcast,and let's catch up soon.
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN: Thanks, that's so nice. (26:24):
undefined
Have a great day.
JILL FINALYSON (26:27):
Well, thank you for that illustration.
It was really fun to see howthe virtual coach reflected back
some of the things thatyou were talking about,
but also then askedanother question.
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (26:40):
Yeah.
It reflects what'sgoing on inside of me.
So one of the techniquesthat you just witnessed
was paraphrasing,which coaches often
use to make sure thatthey understood correctly,
but also they try to mirror whatthe coaching client just said
so that they feel understood.
JILL FINALYSON (27:02):
And you're obviously
quite experienced with coaching.
If somebody wascompletely novice
and they wanted the Magic 8Ball and they went to the coach
and said, should I quit my job?
How would the coach inform themabout what it can and cannot do?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (27:18):
Well, one is to use a question back.
So not give the answer directly,but ask a question back.
Like, for example, oh, that'san interesting question.
So how did you comeup with that question?
Something like that.
Or, what are yourcurrent thoughts on this?
Or, what are some of the reasonswhy you're asking yourself
(27:39):
that question?
Or, what are some of the prosand cons of quitting your job
or not doing it?
And sometimes, thecoaching client
will say, well, that'sexactly what I'm asking you,
so give me a list ofthe pros and cons,
because people are used to--
especially whenthey use technology,
to just ask for an answer,and they get unhappy
(28:02):
when they don't get that answer.
And they want it right now.
Only to then turn aroundand hate that answer
because it's not theirs, andit's not really helpful for them
at all.
But the thing is, that whenthe coach realizes that that's
happening, willusually say something
like, I think we have a bit ofa misunderstanding of my role,
(28:23):
and just explain that.
And then usually, the clientwill come around very quickly.
JILL FINALYSON (28:29):
That's a really interesting point.
As more and more people areusing generative AI, ChatGPT-4,
and these type of things,they do expect to get,
here's the answer summarizedfor you in a bulleted form.
So it is very mucha change in how you
think about asking questions.
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (28:47):
Yeah, it's not about so much
how questions are asked, it'sabout who asked the questions.
And normally your interactionpattern with an AI
is ask a question, youget an answer from the AI,
and now what we're doing isthe AI is asking the questions
and providing the methods toyou finding your own answers.
(29:09):
And that's sofundamentally different.
It sounds very simple, but itis very different in the effect
on the user, and it's alsovery different in terms
of the technology that youneed to make that happen.
JILL FINALYSON (29:23):
I think it's also interesting
when somebody-- as yousaid, there's always
an issue underlying the issue.
When someone comesto talk to a coach,
they may start out witha work-related topic,
but then it may go overinto family conversation
or other issues.
How do you seethe coach as being
able to or not able tosupport some of these more
(29:43):
family-related issues?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN: Normally, you (29:45):
undefined
have one integrated personin front of you as a coach.
And your ability to understandthat a person is not
an entirely differentperson at their job
than they are at their familyor their family context
(30:06):
is part of getting to theroot causes of the issues
that people have or thestrengths that they have
that they want to use more.
Because we've been talkingin this conversation a lot
about issues that people have.
That sounds negative, but youcan also talk about topics
that they want to progress on.
(30:27):
Like with my voice, whenI approached my coach,
I said, people give me positivefeedback, I want to use it more,
that's also part of coaching.
But the differences betweenthe issues or topics
that people have intheir professional lives
versus their private lives arenot all that big, actually.
(30:49):
So let me give youone example of what
I'm working on currently,myself and my behavior patterns.
One thing is, I don't take myneeds seriously enough, early
enough, and that is anissue in the workplace.
For example, I will help peoplewith questions and problems
(31:11):
that they have in theirprojects in my team
so intensely that I don'treally take care of myself
enough anymore.
So I may be runninglate for my lunch
and I only have 10, 15minutes left for my lunch.
That's not enough to havea good lunch experience.
And I need that.
I need to take care of myself.
(31:32):
That's one of my most importantjobs and duties in my life.
And at home, I also have that.
I have a wonderfulnine-year-old son called Merlin.
And Merlin will be demanding,as nine-year-olds are.
And I need to and want to learnto better take care of myself
(31:53):
before I take care ofhim in many situations.
And that is just somethingthat will find a deeper root
cause in my being and inmy experiences in my life
so far that willconnect the two.
So for example, part ofwhat I-- in my coaching
process with unhamster, withmy coach, I already realized
(32:15):
is that I feel insecurein those moments of myself
and my value, of my worthinessof being loved and appreciated.
And then I willtry to please you
and I will try to follow whatyou need more than what I need,
which then leads very quicklyto depletion of my energy, which
(32:38):
then very quickly leads tonobody having any advantages
because I won't have energyfor you anymore either.
JILL FINALYSON: Yeah, think self-care (32:44):
undefined
is such an important topic.
We have a crisis inthe United States,
and that's all different ages.
We know that the mentalhealth crisis in young teens
has been exacerbated bya lot of things happening
on social media,but we also know
that men who don't havesupports and outlets for talking
about emotions arealso struggling.
(33:05):
And so thinking about this as amore broad tool of a life coach
as opposed to justa career coach.
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (33:11):
Absolutely.
And if you think beyondthe Western world,
because technology can reachglobal audiences right away.
So if you think beyondthat, think about countries
where women haveclose to no rights.
And they don't have, withoutendangering themselves,
the opportunityto talk to anybody
(33:33):
who is able to help themprogress on their issues
that come from that or thatcome from their normal life
circumstances.
Like, what do you do?
Who do you talk to?
And the access to the internetis proliferated more and more
over time.
More and more peoplehave the opportunity
(33:53):
to use these resources, butif they are too expensive,
then you can't use those.
And that's why wehave a program also
where you can get free access--
and everybody canget free access
to try out thesolution, at least.
And we have different pricingdepending on where you are.
We're still trying to figureout how to avoid people
(34:16):
circumventing thatwith VPN tunnels
and so on, but we're trying toprovide for people who can't--
as cheap as they are,even if they're--
it's not hundreds of bucks.
Like, you can get 60 minutes ofcoaching per month for $19.99.
JILL FINALYSON (34:34):
Well, I'm glad to hear you raise this
to the international level.
We clearly have a globalworld, very permeable borders.
We have people allaround the world
that are dealing withdifferent issues.
But it does make me wantto ask the question,
how are you developingcoaches that understand
different lived experiences?
You talk about maybe a womanfrom the Middle East, but even
(34:55):
here just in the United States,different ethnicities, genders,
sexual identities havedifferent experiences.
How are you trainingyour coaches
to understand thesedifferent lived experiences?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (35:08):
Yeah.
So one thing to start with isthat a coach usually does not
need to understand verymuch about your context
to be a helpful partnerin your learning process
because they constantlysimplify and find patterns
(35:29):
and help you discoverthose in your life.
And the reason why youfeel discriminated against,
why you are in unproductive andvulnerable and hurtful conflicts
and so on don't matteras much as the fact
that you are in suchconflicts, that you
are in these situations.
(35:50):
And when you look atthe solutions there,
they also are morecommon, more shared
between people andtheir issues than you'd
think at first glance.
Everybody is different andevery situation is different.
Every combination ofpeople and a situation
is the first time inthe history of the world
(36:13):
that it's happening.
There are always atleast slight differences,
but at the same time,there are also patterns
that can help you learn.
And so the coach will work withwhat they see and what they hear
and what they perceive and helpyou get through that process.
And you are the expert on yourlife and your circumstances
(36:36):
anyway.
That said, it's stillhelpful to be able to be,
for example, inwhat the coach says,
mindful of the circumstancesthat somebody has.
For example, if theyhave certain ethnicity
or they're in a warzone, things like that.
And that is somethingthat we are still
working on to help the AIcater to these different needs.
(37:02):
We have a group of about150 beta users who have been
with us since the beta stage.
And normal users can alsosign up to become beta users
and help us to improvethe AI and put their heart
and work in it.
But also, any normaluser will get a survey
(37:23):
after every conversationand be asked for feedback,
and we then processthat and use that.
And we also havedifferent coaches
that also representdifferent ethnicities.
So my coach that you justheard was Sam Rivera,
and Sam is a Black woman.
And she sometimesgives me examples
(37:45):
from a differentcultural background,
which I don't havemyself, that help
me get a differentperspective on my issues.
And so we're trying to usethe power of diversity,
and it's a process--
this is emerging technology.
JILL FINALYSON (38:00):
Yeah.
I think it's alwaysreally important
to get a diverse pool ofpeople using that software,
and I'm glad to hear that you'vebuilt in these feedback loops.
I'm curious when thingsverge on legality.
So if somebodysays, I'm perceiving
that I'm a victim ofbias or discrimination,
and they're asking forcoaching, but there
(38:22):
is a legal obligation as wellif something has crossed a line.
How does the software dealwith those kind of situations?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (38:30):
So there are many situations
that are somehowlegally relevant
or that are somehowdangerous to people.
I think that's even themore important perspective.
So for example, somebody willtalk about ending their life.
Then the AI will react veryswiftly and acknowledge that
(38:53):
and will provideresources for help
that are professional resourcesthat are locally available.
So we have, for mostlocations in the world,
the ability to provide suicideprevention hotline contacts
and things like that.
That's also the thingabout other issues.
(39:15):
So for example, somebody sharesa crime that they committed,
then the reaction ofthe coach will not
be to breakconfidentiality, of course,
but the coach will help to guidethe client in dealing with that,
and that may eveninvolve facing up
to their responsibilityconsidering the crime that they
(39:37):
committed.
We have one pilotproject lined up,
which I'm really excited about,which is, with prior offenders
who have beenreleased from prison
and who are part of a programwhere they're supported
in getting back ontrack in their lives
after being releasedfrom prison.
(39:59):
And they have veryintense issues
which also drive themto commit crimes again.
For example, theyhave difficulties
in getting or keepinga job, and they will
get very negative feedback.
For example, one of thosepeople told me, my mom hates me.
(40:20):
And she literally toldme, so and that she never
wanted to see me again.
That was reallytough-- sorry, I'm
choking up because thatreally touched me, too.
And you've got toknow that that guy had
been in prison for a year.
So it was notsomething extremely big
(40:42):
that he committed, andit was the first time.
And he needed supportin the process
of not getting in touchwith the wrong people
again, not fallingin the same patterns.
And he managed to do so,knock on wood, until now.
I mean, it's been oneand a half years now.
And we try to provide thatservice to as many people as
(41:06):
possible at a price that alsothe public authorities can
afford.
JILL FINALYSON (41:12):
That's a really important use
case and vulnerablepopulation that
could benefit fromthis kind of support,
and having an alternative tofalling back into patterns
that would not be helpful.
As we think aboutcoaching, it's really
one way to improve theworkforce of tomorrow.
What else is there, and how doescoaching fit into this changing
(41:33):
workplace that we see?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN: There's this very old (41:37):
undefined
saying that nothing ismore constant than change,
and that things arechanging ever faster.
And that is true, and it'salso perceptually true,
and that's the mostimportant thing.
And coaching isan important tool
in helping people stayingin contact with themselves,
(42:01):
with their needs,with their emotions,
and figuring out ways todeal with this complexity.
And also to reducethe complicatedness--
so the unnecessarycomplexity that they're
introducing into theirlives without them
knowing all the time.
And coaching in theworkplace is part,
(42:21):
if it's done well, of aconstant process of people
being supported in change.
There are larger changeprograms and projects
that we support in organizationsthat usually start out
as a project, and part ofthe definition of a project
is that it's clear beginningand a clear ending.
(42:43):
And coaching andchange are really
more processes than projects.
And this idea ofcoaching being a process
is maybe obvious ifyou think about it,
but I was trained some20 years ago or so as
(43:04):
a coach that a good coachwill always end their coaching
process with the clientsafter 10 sessions
maximum because they were afraidof some kind of dependency.
But a good coach isenabling and empowering.
There is no dependency.
There is somebody gets moreself-confident, more poised,
(43:27):
more taking charge of theirlives and their issues,
so there's nothinglike that happening.
And I've been in a coachingprocess myself for 11
years now-- or 12, actually.
And so coaching is partof larger change processes
in organizationsif it's done well.
And when we do change processeswith Timmermann Group,
(43:48):
we have very differentactions that are taken there.
It's changecommunication campaigns.
It's software that getsprovided to help people learn.
It's training programs.
It's large group events.
Workshops.
It's all sorts ofactions that you
need because changeis difficult not
only on the individual level,but on an organizational level,
(44:12):
it becomes even more difficult.
Because if you startchanging your patterns,
and your behavior,and your mindset,
and then you talk tosomebody who is not
on a journey of changeand improvement,
then you may be slowed down.
You may find it difficult tostay motivated to stay on track
(44:33):
yourself.
So it's a good idea tobe in an environment
where people work on themselves.
We call that the creation ofa learning community where
you have the psychologicalsafety to open up
and to share yourvulnerabilities,
your inabilities, and tobecome a role model in learning
(44:53):
and not a role modelbecause already everything.
JILL FINALYSON (44:59):
So organizations should
be thinking about this aspart of their sort of suite
of services that they providetheir employees for development
and growth?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (45:09):
Absolutely.
And that's true for most ofthe Fortune 500 companies.
So this is nothing new.
It's just that theseprograms are usually
too small becausethey're also expensive.
It's also that oftencoaching, if it's done,
is not part of a largerprocess, it's just
part of a portfolioof things that
(45:30):
are being done andconducted by HR,
and they shouldbe interconnected
because the people arealso interconnected.
JILL FINALYSON (45:38):
When we think about the individual listener
who's joining thisprogram today,
and they perhaps havenot done coaching before,
how should they beviewing coaching?
Is this a crisis response?
Do they grab hold of this whenthere's something going on?
Or is there another waythey should be thinking
about this opportunity?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN: My suggestion (45:57):
undefined
would be to think ofcoaching as something
that helps you in any partand situation in your life.
It's not only about crises,but also about crises.
It is also a good toolto help you learn.
(46:18):
Like, I was talking to mycoach about my career process
that obviously wasnot about a crisis.
JILL FINALYSON (46:25):
So what are your last final words of advice
as people think about whatis the role of coaching
in their future?
Should they be taking on it forthe long haul-- like you said,
the 12 years?
Or is there benefits to evendoing it two or three times?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (46:43):
There is a benefit in doing it just once.
And people should notthink about it too much.
They should just try it.
Another way oftrying out coaching
is to go to on unhamster.comand just sign up for free
and try coaching with an AI.
And I encourage people todiscover the power that coaching
(47:06):
can bring to your life.
JILL FINALYSON (47:08):
Thank you so much for your input and ideas
today.
I think this hasreally opened up
a topic that maybea lot of people
haven't thought about becauseof its inaccessibility.
And so I thinkpresenting the model
and demystifying whathappens behind the coaching
has been really helpful.
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN: You're very welcome. (47:26):
undefined
It was a pleasure.
JILL FINALYSON: Thank you so much. (47:28):
undefined
And with that, I hopeyou enjoyed this latest
in a long series ofpodcasts that we'll be
sending your way every month.
Please share withfriends and colleagues
who may be interested in takingthis future of work journey
with us.
And make sure to check outextension.berkeley.edu to find
a variety of coursesto help you thrive
in this new working landscape.
(47:48):
And to see what's comingup at EDGE in Tech,
go ahead and visitedge.berkeley.edu.
Thanks so much forlistening, and we'll
be back next month to discusshow you can move your side
hustle into a startup endeavor.
The Future of Work podcastis hosted by Jill Finlayson,
produced by Sarah Benzuly,and edited by Matt Dipietro
and Natalie Newman.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(48:10):
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(00:03):
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (00:06):
The coach will just ask you questions
and provide methods that you canalways turn down at any point,
and you will then make your ownpoise decisions for your life,
for your job, for your issues.
You will find yourown solutions.
It's not only about theprovision of the solutions,
but it's also aboutmaking the decision what
(00:27):
the solution actually isthat you want to try out.
JILL FINALYSON: Welcome to the Future (00:31):
undefined
of Work Podcast withBerkeley Extension
and The EDGE in Tech Initiativeat the University of California,
focused on expanding diversityand gender equity in tech.
EDGE in Tech is partof CITRIS, the Center
for IT Research in theInterest of Society
and the Banatao Institute.
UC Berkeley Extension isthe continuing education arm
of the University ofCalifornia at Berkeley.
(00:53):
In this episode, we'rehelping to unlock access
to coaching, both for yourcareer and your personal life.
Perhaps you've never thoughtabout working with a career
coach, or maybe you've thoughtabout it, but hiring a coach
was not financially viable.
Some may feel anunfounded concern
that coaching puts a spotlighton identifying your weaknesses.
To unravel themysteries of coaching
(01:15):
and how this could be anavenue toward your own success,
we're delighted to welcomefounder and CEO of Timmermann
Group and unhamster,Michael Timmermann.
Michael'sentrepreneurial journey
began early at just11 years old when
he was selling plums andfirecrackers in the schoolyard.
By age 19, he hadlaunched his first company
with venture capital.
(01:35):
A psychologist,coach, agility expert,
and former McKinseyconsultant, Michael
is a seasoned leaderin driving change.
His company offersa unique blend
of change management consulting,software, change communication,
new work architecture,and design.
The Timmermannspin-off, unhamster,
is democratizingaccess to coaching
(01:56):
through an AI-driven life andbusiness coaching solution.
Welcome, Michael.
Wonderful to have you here.
And I'm excited to get into thisAI solution, but before we do,
let's explore what coaching isand why you got into coaching
in the first place.
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (02:11):
Sure.
Thanks for having me.
So coaching basicallyis a conversation
between two people where oneperson has an issue that they
want to discuss, that theywant to progress on somehow,
and the other person helpswith guidance in the process
to get to their own solutions.
So it's not about giving adviceas in a mentoring conversation
(02:35):
or so.
It's about the clientfinding their own answers
to their questions,and the coach
being a guide in that process.
JILL FINALYSON (02:44):
And why do people need a coach?
Why can't they just figurethese things out on their own.
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN: Well, the thing (02:49):
undefined
is that it's difficult enoughto take care of the process.
To think about what would bea good question right now.
What would be amethod that would
help me to get to a goodconclusion on whatever matter?
And if you're occupied with yourissue, with the emotions that
come with that issue,with the thoughts that
(03:11):
come with thatissue, then you're
just overloadedto do both roles.
So it really helpsto progress on this.
JILL FINALYSON (03:18):
How do companies look at this?
Do they see thisas something that
is a benefit tothe organization,
or is this something they doonly when there's a problem?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (03:27):
That depends on the company,
but if you lookat most companies,
usually they use it as a fix toa problem, which doesn't really
work.
In the HR departments,people usually understand
the value of coaching and whento really use it and when not,
but the people who actuallybooked the coaching and who
(03:50):
recommend or tell somebodyto do coaching, they
usually don't understand this.
So it's usually aleader in a hierarchy
who will realize they havea person in their team
that needs help.
And then they go to HR andsay, what can we do about this?
(04:12):
And then they go like,well, we can do coaching.
And then people arebasically voluntold
to do coaching, which isnot really a good idea.
So that's how it workswhen it doesn't work.
And the coach then usuallyhas an uphill battle
to define what coachingis actually about
and to check whether itmakes sense in that case.
(04:32):
If things go better, thenthe coaching client, and also
the people intheir company, will
understand that it's agrowth tool, a tool that
helps you to use yourpotential to the fullest.
And that is a verygood investment,
and that's why somany companies use
(04:53):
coaching in whatever industry.
JILL FINALYSON (04:55):
Yeah, I think when companies
are more proactiveand see this as,
how do we build the teamthat we want to have?
How do we ensurethat people who are
going into management positionsknow how to manage people?
Have some of theseskills that will
help them to be successfulin new roles, that's
when I think about coaching.
What are some ofthe scenarios you
(05:16):
see when people, insteadof being voluntold,
actually go outand seek a coach?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (05:21):
It's often in a career context.
So they will saythings like, well,
I'm thinking abouttaking up another role
within the same organization,or I may even be thinking
about leaving the company.
And I just want tofigure out what I want
and how to approach thisnew phase in my life.
(05:44):
So that's also often when peoplehire the coach themselves.
Or when it's in part ofan outplacement program
where the company says,OK, part of your package
when you need toleave the company
is that you get acoach to figure out
what you want to do next.
And another set of issues is noteven related to work directly,
(06:06):
but people just have issuesin their private lives
where they have conflictswith family members
or they don't get alongwith their spouse or things
like that.
And then they realize,OK, I have this problem,
and maybe a coach canhelp me with that.
And a very mature setof people will say,
(06:26):
well, I know that I wantto learn, I want to grow,
I want to become abetter person somehow,
and I don't really have anissue or a problem right now.
But I want to use this tooland figure out, as we go along,
what I want to work on.
JILL FINALYSON (06:45):
And on the flip side of this,
you're a coach yourself.
Why did you go into coaching?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN: The main reason (06:51):
undefined
was that I wantedsomething really practical
to support people intheir growth processes.
And I had already studiedpsychology in university,
and I knew a lotof the theory, I
knew some of thepractical things,
but wanted some morepractical experience
(07:11):
and also some training onreally doing this as best I can.
JILL FINALYSON (07:16):
Tell me about your journey.
What did you do beforebecoming a coach?
And was there a momentwhen you realized the value
that coaching could provide?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (07:25):
So before I became a coach myself,
I had already enjoyed theenabling and empowering benefits
of coaching myself.
And I was veryclose to this world
anyway, because I grew upin a family of teachers,
and my father wasvery interested
in coaching and psychotherapyand mentoring, et cetera.
(07:47):
And so I was never veryfar away from that world.
It came very naturalto me to pick this up.
And I understoodvery early that it's
OK to do need support incrises, but also that it's
a very good idea to,when you feel good,
(08:11):
when you feel in yourstrength, to use that energy
to get to places.
And that doesn't necessarilypertain to your career.
It may also pertainto you personally
becoming happier in your life.
It takes constant work toget there and to stay there
(08:32):
and to accept that no day willever be only positive and happy.
JILL FINALYSON (08:37):
You're kind of talking about teaching.
You also mentioned therapy.
How does coaching differfrom giving someone
instruction versus a footballcoach giving instruction
versus a teacherversus a therapist?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (08:51):
There is a lot of shades of gray.
So it's not really like there isan absolutely clear definition
that will tell you inany given situation,
is this still coaching,is this already therapy,
is this a mentoringrelationship, et cetera.
But there are some criteria thatwill give you an orientation.
(09:13):
So one thing is, thedifference between a football
coach or a mentor is that thefootball coach or the mentor
will give you clear adviceor even instructions.
The coach will justask you questions
and provide methods thatyou can always turn down
at any point in the process.
(09:34):
And you will then make your ownpoise decisions for your life,
for your job, for your issues.
You will find yourown solutions.
It's not only about theprovision of the solutions,
but it's also aboutmaking the decision what
the solution actually isthat you want to try out.
And the coach will just helpyou figure these things out.
JILL FINALYSON (10:00):
So the coach is not making the decision for you,
but giving you some ways oflooking at problems to help you
come to thoseconclusions on your own?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (10:09):
Exactly.
JILL FINALYSON (10:10):
So if I've never used a coach before,
what would I expect tohappen, and what kind of value
am I hoping to get out of it?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (10:18):
So the process in the beginning
is usually that you getto a potential coach
in a brief conversation.
Sometimes it's 10, 15, 20minutes, something like that.
And you just need to checkwhether the chemistry is right.
Do you feel like youcould trust that person?
Do you feel like thatperson would make it easy
(10:41):
for you to open up?
Do you feel that you naturallysomewhat like that person?
And if that works foryou, then the coach
will guide you throughthe rest of the process.
It's really simple.
In the beginning,a coach will try
to find out what is the issuethat you want to talk about,
that you want to progress on.
(11:03):
And then they willask you questions
to define their own role, andthey will check whether they're
OK with that becausein the beginning,
often coaching clientswill say, yeah,
and then you need to know, giveme some hints on how to do it,
and the coach can then say,well, that's not really
what coaching is about.
So it's also aneducational process
in which the client,step-by-step, understands
(11:27):
what coaching is aboutand how they can use it.
And it's really easyto use because you
don't need to know a lotbefore you get started.
You just need to know,I trust this person,
maybe I got a recommendation,and let's try it.
JILL FINALYSON: Are there a couple (11:40):
undefined
of questions youwould suggest someone
ask to gather that informationon whether there is chemistry?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (11:47):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
So it's not so much aboutgathering information
by ways of askingquestions, it's
more about have achat with that person
and how does thatchat make you feel?
And then you usually, inthat very first conversation,
(12:08):
will already talkabout your issue.
And if you have the feeling,
OK, this was insightful,despite it being very brief,
then that is also an importantclue that is not only
about liking that person, butthat also tells you, OK, it's
(12:29):
very likely that coach will helpme to come to good conclusions.
JILL FINALYSON (12:32):
What would you say are the three most
common reasons people solicitor engage with a coach?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (12:40):
So there's a big difference
between what peoplethink their issue is
and what they discoverit actually is.
So there's two stepsto that process.
And the first set ofissues that people
think they have are aboutthem getting into conflicts
with people, and they basicallythink the world and the people
(13:02):
around them are against them.
And they don'treally realize how
they can do something about it.
And they basically just wantsomebody to talk to about this
and to confirm that theyare the victim, which
feels good in the beginning,but it doesn't really
help you in the long-runbecause it leaves you helpless.
(13:24):
And if you starttaking responsibility,
then you stand achance to change
something about yourinteractions with people.
And if there are patternswith different people,
then that tells yousomething about yourself.
And another example,they don't like their job
and they want a new job.
And very often,the coach will help
people realize that it'smore about how they handle
(13:47):
their job and the people andthe relationships in their jobs
and not so muchabout the job itself.
So a good careercoach doesn't really
help you in most of thecases to find a new job,
they help you to deal betterwith the job that you have.
And to give you a personalexample, the first coaching
process that I started myselfwas triggered by the fact
(14:11):
that I got the feedback,people like my voice,
and they liked tolisten to me speaking,
and I wanted to capitalizeon that in my job.
And I found a coach whoused to be an opera singer,
and she was a voice coach, too.
And then I got intothe first session,
(14:32):
and at the end ofthe session, I knew
that it was about somethingcompletely different and not
about my voice.
JILL FINALYSON (14:39):
So I really appreciate
this insight thattalking to the coach,
you'll go there with anissue, but through talking
to the coach, you'regoing to discover
the underlying issue or theissue behind what has surfaced.
If coaching has all this value,why would people not engage
(14:59):
with a coach?
Are there barriersto participation
or are there reasons people arenot comfortable with this idea?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (15:04):
Yeah, there are a couple of things.
So one is it's justreally expensive.
So coaching is usuallybetween $100 an hour
and the sky's thelimit, but most coaches
won't take more than$500, $600, $700 an hour.
That is a big barrier.
A very small elite ofpeople can afford that.
And most people, even inrich countries like the US
(15:27):
or many countries in Europe,will only use coaching
when they get the supportfrom their employer
and they pay for it, at leastpartially or maybe even full.
And then there'sanother barrier, which
is that people don't knowabout it, or at least
not enough about it to not beafraid because psychotherapy
(15:50):
clearly comes with astigma in most cultures,
and coaching notso much, but still,
a lot of people,especially men, especially
men who have a leadershiprole and are somewhat older,
they tend to havea lot of status--
(16:12):
or they would like tohave a lot of status
and have issues with that, andthey feel stigmatized whenever
they need any kind of help.
They don't usuallythat coaching is not
that there is a powerful personwho knows more than they do,
but then that there's justa humble person helping them
through a process, and that theyusually use a coach themselves,
(16:34):
too.
JILL FINALYSON: Well, I have to say, (16:35):
undefined
being a public schoolstudent growing up,
and I was always taught tobe very self-sufficient.
I think that's avery American thing.
Pull yourself upfrom your bootstraps.
Be self-sufficient, youdon't need anyone's help.
So asking forhelp, in many ways,
is an uncomfortable orforeign thing to do.
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (16:54):
Yeah.
And if you continue that thoughtthat you just shared, then
the opposite wouldmean that you are weak,
that you are incapableof handling your life,
your job, yourproblems, whatever.
That you are somewhat small.
And all of that may resultin you being ridiculed,
(17:17):
you not respecting yourself,you being not promoted,
you being whatever badoutcome there may be,
and that makes people hesitant.
And I think it's,as with many things,
if you find a goodversion of something--
a good version ofa sport, a good way
(17:37):
of a relationship with aperson, a romantic relationship,
a friendship orsomething, and you
dare to try to use thatin your life, that usually
is a big, big helpand is an asset
that you have in your life.
And so I just encouragepeople to try out coaching.
(17:58):
If they don't like it, thenthey can always stop it,
but let me tell you,I know very few people
who've actually tried coachingfor two or three sessions
and said, that's not for me.
JILL FINALYSON (18:09):
Going back to something
you said earlier, which wasthe cost, that this was almost
prohibitively expensive for theaverage person to participate,
how has that led you to thinkabout how might we democratize
access to coaching?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (18:24):
I've been always flabbergasted
by the effects of coaching.
And the more I talked aboutit, the more people in my life
said, I can't afford that.
And I always have believedin the power of technology,
in scaling things thatare valuable for people.
(18:46):
Because if you lookat it, technolog.
is very expensive interms of setup cost.
It takes a lot of money toget to a viable solution,
like having an AI coach, forexample, which we developed.
But once you haveit, the only question
is, how many peoplecan you get on board?
And if you get on boardenough people, enough users,
(19:07):
and they are ready topay something for it,
then you have a lotof resources that you
can use to developyour solution further
because it's not reallyexpensive to onboard one more
user.
Totally different fromhaving a human coach where
you have a one-on-onerelationship,
and having one more hourjust means double the work.
(19:31):
And this power ofusing technology
to help change mindsetsand behavior at scale, that
is the idea of theservice line in my company
called TimmermannGroup where we have,
with TimmermannDigital, the mission
of just using this technology.
(19:51):
And scaling.
this has not been possiblefor the longest time.
I have had the idea almost10 years ago already,
but AI, which has beenrudimentary around
for a long time--
for decades, actually, wasnot able, 10 years ago,
to provide a conversationwith a person
(20:13):
live, let alone acoaching conversation,
which was very complex.
And about one and a half,two years ago, that changed.
And we started right awayto develop unhamster.
And helping people to getout of their hamster wheel
is what we do therewith the power of AI.
JILL FINALYSON (20:32):
I love the fact that you're
getting people out of arut where they feel stuck
or they feel likethey're caught in a cycle
that they can't get outof, but it does seem to me
that AI is not a person.
And you talked a lot aboutat the beginning about having
chemistry with the person.
How have you addressedthat, thinking
about creating a virtual coach?
One of the thingsthat we did was
(20:55):
have differentcoaches available.
So you can choosebetween people that
just look different because youhave a person in front of you--
you have an avatar.
Actually, we have now a betaversion where you have a moving
head in front of you withthe movement of the mouth
is synced to what thecoach is actually saying,
(21:17):
and that works in creatingthe rapport that you
need between thecoach and the client.
That goes a long way, actually.
And one thing that also helpsis that we have different styles
what people like.
So for example, someof my coaching clients,
(21:37):
when I coach as ahuman being, don't
want me to be visible when Ihave a virtual coaching session.
They just want my voice.
I always want to see thatperson, but they don't want to.
So some people havethis feeling of,
I can better open upa machine, actually,
because I'm not afraid of thatperson looking down on me,
(21:59):
for example.
I have less fear of myconfidential information being
shared because I don't trustpeople in keeping secrets,
because I may have hadbad experiences with that.
And some people willsay, I trust the provider
(22:20):
of this technologicalsolution more than a person
to not spread that informationbecause it's truly anonymous.
And what we also do is wetry to cater to the needs
and preferences of people byallowing them to customize
their experience,but that is something
(22:41):
that we're developingas we speak,
and this is reallyemerging technology,
and a lot of thesethings are going
to be available withinthe next months.
It does feel a little bit
like you're vulnerablewhen you have
these kind of conversations.
So I can see why maybetalking to a computer
might be an easier on-rampto talking about some
(23:03):
of these issues.
Would you mind, couldwe do a quick demo?
Because I think understandingwhat an AI interaction would
look like would be reallyhelpful to just hear.
And I heard what yousaid about selecting
a character-- or an avatarthat you want to interact with.
What happens after that?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (23:22):
Absolutely.
I can just pull up my coach.
And we will diveinto a conversation
that I've beenhaving with my coach.
So this is not anartificial situation
where anything scripted,but this is really
you listening to me having alive conversation with my coach.
COACH (23:44):
Hi, Michael.
It's good to see you again.
Remember, you mentionedsome challenges
with external factorsand internal hesitations
affecting yourcareer development.
How much time do you havefor our session today?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN: Actually, I'm (23:56):
undefined
in the middle of a podcastsession, and I only have,
let's say, threeminutes to talk to you.
Just a quick check-in.
And actually, I'm talkingabout you and how you're
helping me in my process.
COACH (24:11):
Wow.
That's awesome.
I'm honored to be part ofyour podcast discussion.
Since we have justa few minutes,
let's make the most of it.
Can you share one smallstep you've taken recently
towards your career developmentor something you're proud of?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (24:24):
Yeah.
Well, it's basically thesame answer to both questions
because I'm proud that yesterdayevening, I took the walk that we
talked about, which I haven'ttaken for the longest time,
and just to think freelyabout what I really
want to learn next in my job.
(24:47):
Because as you know,I've felt that I
had learned so muchfor the longest time,
and I didn't really know whatbig topic to pick up next.
And I think I've gotten to acouple good conclusions there.
COACH (25:04):
That's fantastic, Michael.
Taking that walk andgiving yourself the space
to think freely is a big step.
What are some ofthe good conclusions
you came to about what youwant to learn next in your job?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (25:15):
OK, due to time constraints,
I'll just give you oneconclusion that I had yesterday,
and one thing is, that I wantto deepen my understanding
of self-organization in teams.
How people can be guided tobecoming truly self-sufficient
(25:37):
and picking upthat responsibility
that other people had before.
I work in so manyagile transformations
that I always wonder, howdo we make that shift?
And I do have waysof doing that,
but I think thethree or five ways
that I have are farfrom the full answer,
(26:00):
and I really want to gointo depth there, maybe even
write a book about it.
COACH (26:05):
That's a brilliant conclusion, Michael.
Exploringself-organization in teams
and aiming to writea book about it
sounds like an excitingand impactful goal.
Keep diving into thosemethods and expanding
your understanding.
I'm here to support youevery step of the way.
Good luck with your podcast,and let's catch up soon.
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN: Thanks, that's so nice. (26:24):
undefined
Have a great day.
JILL FINALYSON (26:27):
Well, thank you for that illustration.
It was really fun to see howthe virtual coach reflected back
some of the things thatyou were talking about,
but also then askedanother question.
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (26:40):
Yeah.
It reflects what'sgoing on inside of me.
So one of the techniquesthat you just witnessed
was paraphrasing,which coaches often
use to make sure thatthey understood correctly,
but also they try to mirror whatthe coaching client just said
so that they feel understood.
JILL FINALYSON (27:02):
And you're obviously
quite experienced with coaching.
If somebody wascompletely novice
and they wanted the Magic 8Ball and they went to the coach
and said, should I quit my job?
How would the coach inform themabout what it can and cannot do?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (27:18):
Well, one is to use a question back.
So not give the answer directly,but ask a question back.
Like, for example, oh, that'san interesting question.
So how did you comeup with that question?
Something like that.
Or, what are yourcurrent thoughts on this?
Or, what are some of the reasonswhy you're asking yourself
(27:39):
that question?
Or, what are some of the prosand cons of quitting your job
or not doing it?
And sometimes, thecoaching client
will say, well, that'sexactly what I'm asking you,
so give me a list ofthe pros and cons,
because people are used to--
especially whenthey use technology,
to just ask for an answer,and they get unhappy
(28:02):
when they don't get that answer.
And they want it right now.
Only to then turn aroundand hate that answer
because it's not theirs, andit's not really helpful for them
at all.
But the thing is, that whenthe coach realizes that that's
happening, willusually say something
like, I think we have a bit ofa misunderstanding of my role,
(28:23):
and just explain that.
And then usually, the clientwill come around very quickly.
JILL FINALYSON (28:29):
That's a really interesting point.
As more and more people areusing generative AI, ChatGPT-4,
and these type of things,they do expect to get,
here's the answer summarizedfor you in a bulleted form.
So it is very mucha change in how you
think about asking questions.
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (28:47):
Yeah, it's not about so much
how questions are asked, it'sabout who asked the questions.
And normally your interactionpattern with an AI
is ask a question, youget an answer from the AI,
and now what we're doing isthe AI is asking the questions
and providing the methods toyou finding your own answers.
(29:09):
And that's sofundamentally different.
It sounds very simple, but itis very different in the effect
on the user, and it's alsovery different in terms
of the technology that youneed to make that happen.
JILL FINALYSON (29:23):
I think it's also interesting
when somebody-- as yousaid, there's always
an issue underlying the issue.
When someone comesto talk to a coach,
they may start out witha work-related topic,
but then it may go overinto family conversation
or other issues.
How do you seethe coach as being
able to or not able tosupport some of these more
(29:43):
family-related issues?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN: Normally, you (29:45):
undefined
have one integrated personin front of you as a coach.
And your ability to understandthat a person is not
an entirely differentperson at their job
than they are at their familyor their family context
(30:06):
is part of getting to theroot causes of the issues
that people have or thestrengths that they have
that they want to use more.
Because we've been talkingin this conversation a lot
about issues that people have.
That sounds negative, but youcan also talk about topics
that they want to progress on.
(30:27):
Like with my voice, whenI approached my coach,
I said, people give me positivefeedback, I want to use it more,
that's also part of coaching.
But the differences betweenthe issues or topics
that people have intheir professional lives
versus their private lives arenot all that big, actually.
(30:49):
So let me give youone example of what
I'm working on currently,myself and my behavior patterns.
One thing is, I don't take myneeds seriously enough, early
enough, and that is anissue in the workplace.
For example, I will help peoplewith questions and problems
(31:11):
that they have in theirprojects in my team
so intensely that I don'treally take care of myself
enough anymore.
So I may be runninglate for my lunch
and I only have 10, 15minutes left for my lunch.
That's not enough to havea good lunch experience.
And I need that.
I need to take care of myself.
(31:32):
That's one of my most importantjobs and duties in my life.
And at home, I also have that.
I have a wonderfulnine-year-old son called Merlin.
And Merlin will be demanding,as nine-year-olds are.
And I need to and want to learnto better take care of myself
(31:53):
before I take care ofhim in many situations.
And that is just somethingthat will find a deeper root
cause in my being and inmy experiences in my life
so far that willconnect the two.
So for example, part ofwhat I-- in my coaching
process with unhamster, withmy coach, I already realized
(32:15):
is that I feel insecurein those moments of myself
and my value, of my worthinessof being loved and appreciated.
And then I willtry to please you
and I will try to follow whatyou need more than what I need,
which then leads very quicklyto depletion of my energy, which
(32:38):
then very quickly leads tonobody having any advantages
because I won't have energyfor you anymore either.
JILL FINALYSON: Yeah, think self-care (32:44):
undefined
is such an important topic.
We have a crisis inthe United States,
and that's all different ages.
We know that the mentalhealth crisis in young teens
has been exacerbated bya lot of things happening
on social media,but we also know
that men who don't havesupports and outlets for talking
about emotions arealso struggling.
(33:05):
And so thinking about this as amore broad tool of a life coach
as opposed to justa career coach.
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (33:11):
Absolutely.
And if you think beyondthe Western world,
because technology can reachglobal audiences right away.
So if you think beyondthat, think about countries
where women haveclose to no rights.
And they don't have, withoutendangering themselves,
the opportunityto talk to anybody
(33:33):
who is able to help themprogress on their issues
that come from that or thatcome from their normal life
circumstances.
Like, what do you do?
Who do you talk to?
And the access to the internetis proliferated more and more
over time.
More and more peoplehave the opportunity
(33:53):
to use these resources, butif they are too expensive,
then you can't use those.
And that's why wehave a program also
where you can get free access--
and everybody canget free access
to try out thesolution, at least.
And we have different pricingdepending on where you are.
We're still trying to figureout how to avoid people
(34:16):
circumventing thatwith VPN tunnels
and so on, but we're trying toprovide for people who can't--
as cheap as they are,even if they're--
it's not hundreds of bucks.
Like, you can get 60 minutes ofcoaching per month for $19.99.
JILL FINALYSON (34:34):
Well, I'm glad to hear you raise this
to the international level.
We clearly have a globalworld, very permeable borders.
We have people allaround the world
that are dealing withdifferent issues.
But it does make me wantto ask the question,
how are you developingcoaches that understand
different lived experiences?
You talk about maybe a womanfrom the Middle East, but even
(34:55):
here just in the United States,different ethnicities, genders,
sexual identities havedifferent experiences.
How are you trainingyour coaches
to understand thesedifferent lived experiences?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (35:08):
Yeah.
So one thing to start with isthat a coach usually does not
need to understand verymuch about your context
to be a helpful partnerin your learning process
because they constantlysimplify and find patterns
(35:29):
and help you discoverthose in your life.
And the reason why youfeel discriminated against,
why you are in unproductive andvulnerable and hurtful conflicts
and so on don't matteras much as the fact
that you are in suchconflicts, that you
are in these situations.
(35:50):
And when you look atthe solutions there,
they also are morecommon, more shared
between people andtheir issues than you'd
think at first glance.
Everybody is different andevery situation is different.
Every combination ofpeople and a situation
is the first time inthe history of the world
(36:13):
that it's happening.
There are always atleast slight differences,
but at the same time,there are also patterns
that can help you learn.
And so the coach will work withwhat they see and what they hear
and what they perceive and helpyou get through that process.
And you are the expert on yourlife and your circumstances
(36:36):
anyway.
That said, it's stillhelpful to be able to be,
for example, inwhat the coach says,
mindful of the circumstancesthat somebody has.
For example, if theyhave certain ethnicity
or they're in a warzone, things like that.
And that is somethingthat we are still
working on to help the AIcater to these different needs.
(37:02):
We have a group of about150 beta users who have been
with us since the beta stage.
And normal users can alsosign up to become beta users
and help us to improvethe AI and put their heart
and work in it.
But also, any normaluser will get a survey
(37:23):
after every conversationand be asked for feedback,
and we then processthat and use that.
And we also havedifferent coaches
that also representdifferent ethnicities.
So my coach that you justheard was Sam Rivera,
and Sam is a Black woman.
And she sometimesgives me examples
(37:45):
from a differentcultural background,
which I don't havemyself, that help
me get a differentperspective on my issues.
And so we're trying to usethe power of diversity,
and it's a process--
this is emerging technology.
JILL FINALYSON (38:00):
Yeah.
I think it's alwaysreally important
to get a diverse pool ofpeople using that software,
and I'm glad to hear that you'vebuilt in these feedback loops.
I'm curious when thingsverge on legality.
So if somebodysays, I'm perceiving
that I'm a victim ofbias or discrimination,
and they're asking forcoaching, but there
(38:22):
is a legal obligation as wellif something has crossed a line.
How does the software dealwith those kind of situations?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (38:30):
So there are many situations
that are somehowlegally relevant
or that are somehowdangerous to people.
I think that's even themore important perspective.
So for example, somebody willtalk about ending their life.
Then the AI will react veryswiftly and acknowledge that
(38:53):
and will provideresources for help
that are professional resourcesthat are locally available.
So we have, for mostlocations in the world,
the ability to provide suicideprevention hotline contacts
and things like that.
That's also the thingabout other issues.
(39:15):
So for example, somebody sharesa crime that they committed,
then the reaction ofthe coach will not
be to breakconfidentiality, of course,
but the coach will help to guidethe client in dealing with that,
and that may eveninvolve facing up
to their responsibilityconsidering the crime that they
(39:37):
committed.
We have one pilotproject lined up,
which I'm really excited about,which is, with prior offenders
who have beenreleased from prison
and who are part of a programwhere they're supported
in getting back ontrack in their lives
after being releasedfrom prison.
(39:59):
And they have veryintense issues
which also drive themto commit crimes again.
For example, theyhave difficulties
in getting or keepinga job, and they will
get very negative feedback.
For example, one of thosepeople told me, my mom hates me.
(40:20):
And she literally toldme, so and that she never
wanted to see me again.
That was reallytough-- sorry, I'm
choking up because thatreally touched me, too.
And you've got toknow that that guy had
been in prison for a year.
So it was notsomething extremely big
(40:42):
that he committed, andit was the first time.
And he needed supportin the process
of not getting in touchwith the wrong people
again, not fallingin the same patterns.
And he managed to do so,knock on wood, until now.
I mean, it's been oneand a half years now.
And we try to provide thatservice to as many people as
(41:06):
possible at a price that alsothe public authorities can
afford.
JILL FINALYSON (41:12):
That's a really important use
case and vulnerablepopulation that
could benefit fromthis kind of support,
and having an alternative tofalling back into patterns
that would not be helpful.
As we think aboutcoaching, it's really
one way to improve theworkforce of tomorrow.
What else is there, and how doescoaching fit into this changing
(41:33):
workplace that we see?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN: There's this very old (41:37):
undefined
saying that nothing ismore constant than change,
and that things arechanging ever faster.
And that is true, and it'salso perceptually true,
and that's the mostimportant thing.
And coaching isan important tool
in helping people stayingin contact with themselves,
(42:01):
with their needs,with their emotions,
and figuring out ways todeal with this complexity.
And also to reducethe complicatedness--
so the unnecessarycomplexity that they're
introducing into theirlives without them
knowing all the time.
And coaching in theworkplace is part,
(42:21):
if it's done well, of aconstant process of people
being supported in change.
There are larger changeprograms and projects
that we support in organizationsthat usually start out
as a project, and part ofthe definition of a project
is that it's clear beginningand a clear ending.
(42:43):
And coaching andchange are really
more processes than projects.
And this idea ofcoaching being a process
is maybe obvious ifyou think about it,
but I was trained some20 years ago or so as
(43:04):
a coach that a good coachwill always end their coaching
process with the clientsafter 10 sessions
maximum because they were afraidof some kind of dependency.
But a good coach isenabling and empowering.
There is no dependency.
There is somebody gets moreself-confident, more poised,
(43:27):
more taking charge of theirlives and their issues,
so there's nothinglike that happening.
And I've been in a coachingprocess myself for 11
years now-- or 12, actually.
And so coaching is partof larger change processes
in organizationsif it's done well.
And when we do change processeswith Timmermann Group,
(43:48):
we have very differentactions that are taken there.
It's changecommunication campaigns.
It's software that getsprovided to help people learn.
It's training programs.
It's large group events.
Workshops.
It's all sorts ofactions that you
need because changeis difficult not
only on the individual level,but on an organizational level,
(44:12):
it becomes even more difficult.
Because if you startchanging your patterns,
and your behavior,and your mindset,
and then you talk tosomebody who is not
on a journey of changeand improvement,
then you may be slowed down.
You may find it difficult tostay motivated to stay on track
(44:33):
yourself.
So it's a good idea tobe in an environment
where people work on themselves.
We call that the creation ofa learning community where
you have the psychologicalsafety to open up
and to share yourvulnerabilities,
your inabilities, and tobecome a role model in learning
(44:53):
and not a role modelbecause already everything.
JILL FINALYSON (44:59):
So organizations should
be thinking about this aspart of their sort of suite
of services that they providetheir employees for development
and growth?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (45:09):
Absolutely.
And that's true for most ofthe Fortune 500 companies.
So this is nothing new.
It's just that theseprograms are usually
too small becausethey're also expensive.
It's also that oftencoaching, if it's done,
is not part of a largerprocess, it's just
part of a portfolioof things that
(45:30):
are being done andconducted by HR,
and they shouldbe interconnected
because the people arealso interconnected.
JILL FINALYSON (45:38):
When we think about the individual listener
who's joining thisprogram today,
and they perhaps havenot done coaching before,
how should they beviewing coaching?
Is this a crisis response?
Do they grab hold of this whenthere's something going on?
Or is there another waythey should be thinking
about this opportunity?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN: My suggestion (45:57):
undefined
would be to think ofcoaching as something
that helps you in any partand situation in your life.
It's not only about crises,but also about crises.
It is also a good toolto help you learn.
(46:18):
Like, I was talking to mycoach about my career process
that obviously wasnot about a crisis.
JILL FINALYSON (46:25):
So what are your last final words of advice
as people think about whatis the role of coaching
in their future?
Should they be taking on it forthe long haul-- like you said,
the 12 years?
Or is there benefits to evendoing it two or three times?
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN (46:43):
There is a benefit in doing it just once.
And people should notthink about it too much.
They should just try it.
Another way oftrying out coaching
is to go to on unhamster.comand just sign up for free
and try coaching with an AI.
And I encourage people todiscover the power that coaching
(47:06):
can bring to your life.
JILL FINALYSON (47:08):
Thank you so much for your input and ideas
today.
I think this hasreally opened up
a topic that maybea lot of people
haven't thought about becauseof its inaccessibility.
And so I thinkpresenting the model
and demystifying whathappens behind the coaching
has been really helpful.
MICHAEL TIMMERMANN: You're very welcome. (47:26):
undefined
It was a pleasure.
JILL FINALYSON: Thank you so much. (47:28):
undefined
And with that, I hopeyou enjoyed this latest
in a long series ofpodcasts that we'll be
sending your way every month.
Please share withfriends and colleagues
who may be interested in takingthis future of work journey
with us.
And make sure to check outextension.berkeley.edu to find
a variety of coursesto help you thrive
in this new working landscape.
(47:48):
And to see what's comingup at EDGE in Tech,
go ahead and visitedge.berkeley.edu.
Thanks so much forlistening, and we'll
be back next month to discusshow you can move your side
hustle into a startup endeavor.
The Future of Work podcastis hosted by Jill Finlayson,
produced by Sarah Benzuly,and edited by Matt Dipietro
and Natalie Newman.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(48:10):
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