February 20, 2024 • 41 mins
“The utopia of officiating should be that anybody, regardless of gender, can umpire any game”.
Sue Redfern is a much-celebrated cricket umpire and former England player. Sue became the youngest ever female to play cricket for England when she started her career at just 16 and went on to represent her country for the next five years, including playing in the 1997 World Cup in India. Having retired from the game and moved away from cricket, Sue came back to work at the ECB and, in 2012, decided to give umpiring a go.
Her impact over the following decade has been quite remarkable, and she's now a member of the professional umpire team for domestic cricket in England. She's also an international development panel umpire for the International Cricket Council and has umpired various international matches, including five World Cups.
In 2018, Sue was awarded an MBE for her services to women's cricket, and last year, she became the first female to umpire in a men's first-class cricket match in England.
I was fascinated to know what it’s like to be centre stage at some of the biggest cricket events in the world and how it’s possible to retain your focus in a sport that can last hours.
We discuss Sue’s playing career and where we’ve seen the biggest changes in the women’s game over the past two decades as she reflects on what it was like to umpire a Women’s World Cup in 2017, having played in a World Cup 20 years before.
Sue talks candidly about how she deals with nerves before the biggest games and shares her thoughts on the disparity in payment for elite female umpires and what needs to change.
It’s exciting to learn more about the huge growth in women’s cricket for those playing and officiating from a woman who’s been such a trailblazer in the sport.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sue Anstiss (00:03):
Hello and welcome to the Game Changers.
I'm Sue Anstiss, and this is apodcast where you'll hear from
trailblazing women in sport whoare knocking down barriers and
challenging the status quo forwomen and girls everywhere.
What can we learn from theirjourneys as we explore some of
the key issues around equalityin sport and beyond?
I'd like to start with a bigthank you to our partners, sport
(00:25):
England, who support the GameChangers podcast through a
national lottery award.
My guest today is cricketumpire and former England player
, Sue Redfern.
Sue became the youngest everfemale to play cricket for
England when she started hercareer at just 16 and went on to
(00:45):
represent her country for thenext five years, including
playing in the 1997 World Cup inIndia.
Being retired from the game andmoved away from cricket, sue
came back to work at the ECB and, in 2012, decided to give
umpiring a go.
Her impact over the followingdecade has been quite remarkable
(01:05):
and she's now a member of theprofessional umpire team for
domestic cricket in England.
She's also an internationaldevelopment panel umpire for the
International Cricket Counciland has umpired various
international matches, includingfive World Cups.
In 2018, she was awarded an MBEfor her services to women's
cricket and last year became thefirst female to umpire in a
(01:28):
men's first class cricket matchin England.
Sue, you're clearly now verywell known for breaking barriers
as a cricket umpire, but I'dlike to start, if I can, with
your playing career and how youinitially found cricket.
Sue Redfern (01:44):
Yeah, thanks Sue.
Yeah, I've been very lucky inmy umpiring career, but I first
got into cricket playing when Iwas a youngster.
My family my father was acricketer, played second 11
crickets and my brother, who'stwo years older than me, also
played cricket.
So it was inevitable I wasgoing to get pulled in, sucked
into it.
It wasn't actually my firstsport as a child, but eventually
(02:07):
I saw the light and, yeah, tookup cricket playing and it went
from there really.
Sue Anstiss (02:12):
And did you see other girls playing?
Sue Redfern (02:14):
At the time.
No, I didn't see other girlsplaying.
It was very much.
I played in my boys club in mybrother's club for a local club
in Nottingham shire calledEastwood Town and I went through
their age group boys teamsbefore there was a women's team
which Mum and Dad identifiedover in Derbyshire.
So I was very much playing boyscricket.
(02:35):
I was very lucky that I wasplaying representative county
cricket in the boys age groupsand then at 13 Mum and Dad found
a women's cricket club butthere was no junior girls
cricket.
So again there was a big agegroup for me so I was playing
alongside adults and there was abig age gap when I was playing
senior women's cricket.
Sue Anstiss (02:53):
And you mentioned that you've played other sports
as well.
I believe you were rather goodat badminton, so can I tell us
about that and that opportunitythat you had to play in the US?
Sue Redfern (03:03):
Yes, so I was very lucky that I played badminton
locally and I played a littlebit of county badminton and I
entered some tournaments and ata tournament which I won when I
was under 16 I was offered ascholarship to America to play
scholarship badminton and tryand progress badminton, but I
chose to stay at home.
(03:24):
I think I would have been alittle bit homesick at that
point.
I didn't want to leave Mum andDad and fly all the way to
America and be on my own inAmerica.
So that was the end of mybadminton.
But it was my main sportgrowing up and it's a fantastic
sport.
I love it still.
I enjoy watching it as well.
Sue Anstiss (03:40):
I sense a huge amount of humility here in
talking to you already in thewhole, I was just playing a
little bit of badminton and thenthey invited me off to have a
scholarship in the US.
Sue Redfern (03:50):
Yeah, I suppose.
So it was all a bit of asurprise to me, to be honest,
because I did enjoy my badminton.
I particularly enjoyed playingsingles and played a little bit
of doubles as well with a reallygreat partner.
But yeah, it all came as verymuch as a surprise.
Just very lucky really that Iwas sighted by a scout and they
(04:10):
offered that opportunity.
Sue Anstiss (04:12):
You then got your call up for England in terms of
cricket, when you were just 16,so how did that feel to be so
young in that squad.
Sue Redfern (04:21):
Yes, it was quite a surprise that I was called up
to the England winter trainingsquad.
The year before in 1993 I wasactually watching the Women's
World Cup final at Lords andwatching all my heroes play and
win that final against NewZealand and then the following
winter here I was just 16 yearsold and actually taking part in
(04:43):
the winter training alongsidethese amazing players who just
recently won the World Cup.
So, yeah, I couldn't believe it.
To be perfectly honest, sue,that I was selected.
Obviously I'd been alongsidesome of those players in my
county team and played againstall of the players in the county
championship, which was aweek-long tournament in those
(05:04):
days where we played likeYorkshire and the other strong
teams like the West Midlands aswell.
So, yeah, it was very much asurprise when I got into the
winter training and then I wenton my first tour to Ireland in
the European Championship.
So, yeah, I was very lucky.
Sue Anstiss (05:20):
Was that your first England debut?
Was then Ireland, or when wasyour first proper big tour?
Sue Redfern (05:25):
Yeah, so my first tour was Ireland in the European
Championship in 1995.
We went over and played that'swhere I made my debut for One
Day Internationals.
And then, when I came back fromthat in July August, there was
an opportunity for a winter tour, which was India, and I was
lucky to be selected.
I came back from Irelandinjured, so it was a race
(05:48):
against time to recover from aninjury and ankle injury I had,
but I managed to make the planeand have a seven week tour which
involved Test Match Cricketwhere I made my debut in Test
Matches and ODIs.
So yeah, that was my first.
I was just under 18 at thatpoint, so I was very young and
yeah, I was on tour for sevenweeks to India.
Sue Anstiss (06:09):
And that must have been the most incredible
experience just to be away fromhome, but in such a different
culture and with those women whoyou've kind of been watching
and, I imagine, not idealisingas England players in the past.
Sue Redfern (06:22):
Yeah, very much.
So I knew maybe four or five ofthe squad who played for my own
county.
So you know they were familiarwith me.
They'd know me since I wasabout 13 years old.
But for the large part this wasa new experience for me.
I hadn't been around themoverly socially.
But for seven weeks in Indiathey become your extended family
(06:44):
, which is one of the partsabout cricket is it takes so
long.
Sometimes you're away for along period of time and they are
your team, but they're also,they become your family when
you're on tour.
They're the people that youtrust, the people that you rely
on and the people that lookafter you.
So you know, we've all got ourown kind of like personalities
and we all kind of like levitatetowards people who we're more
(07:06):
friendly with.
But everybody was respectfuland looked after each other and
there were some laughs on tourand there were some you know
challenges on tour as well.
Seven weeks in India was adifficult tour back in the 1990s
and we worked together as ateam really.
Sue Anstiss (07:22):
And can you paint a bit of a picture of what it was
like to represent your countryas a woman playing cricket in
the 90s and how much that'schanged for today's players that
might be heading out on tour?
Sue Redfern (07:33):
Yeah, there's so much that's changed in women's
cricket over the last couple ofdecades.
I mean, you know, I played inthe 1990s.
We were mostly funded at thispoint.
Previously it would have beenfully funded by the player
themselves.
I mean, we were lucky that wewere.
Everything was covered with theexception of maybe a little bit
of clothing.
But we weren't professional, wewere amateur cricketers.
(07:53):
So we all had different jobs.
For me personally, I had threecasual jobs to try and get a bit
of an income outside of cricketplaying so I could take time
off to come and play.
But you know, we trainedregular, just like a
professional team would.
We trained as much as we could.
We didn't have that specialistsupport.
I think we had one coach withus, a manager and a
(08:17):
physiotherapist when we wentover in 1995.
Whereas now, obviously there'sa lot of specialisms, a lot of
different people who aresupporting the teams and
obviously for us we did playTest Match cricket and that was
the main bulk of the series.
So we were away for a longamount of time because of,
obviously, test Match crickettakes four days for each game.
So yeah, it looks verydifferent to us.
(08:38):
It was the selection side of it, the professionalism, the
individual support.
It's totally different to howit was, I suppose to when we
were touring in the 90s.
Sue Anstiss (08:49):
And there's obviously been much discussion
recently around women's sportsclothing.
Even in the last couple ofyears and I know last year,
finally, international hockeymade changes to allow players to
play in shorts as well assports and skirts.
Obviously, you started playingcricket in a skirt at that time,
so can you really sort of thinkback to how those changes were
received at the time?
Sue Redfern (09:10):
Yeah, so there was a big debate in the back in late
1990s about whether or not thegame should continue in skirts
or it would move to trousers.
There was a very big splitbetween the traditionalists and
obviously the practical side aswell, and for me personally, I
really enjoyed playing in askirt, but I saw the
(09:33):
practicality and the danger ofbeing able to be more dynamic
and more athletic sliding anddiving on surfaces.
It did make sense to move totrousers, but I enjoyed my skirt
playing days, I suppose.
Sue Anstiss (09:50):
And looking back on your cricketing career, your
playing career, what are some ofthose most memorable moments
for you?
Sue Redfern (09:57):
Yeah, I think making my ODI debut in Ireland
and also making my test debut inIndia are obviously big
highlights for me.
We had a challenging period inthe 1990s.
Australia very similar to nowreally are very strong, are very
dominant.
India had a very dominant,strong side.
(10:18):
So as a team after the WorldCup victory in 1993, it was
probably a rebuilding period.
There were a lot of games therewhich were quite challenging to
be part of.
It was quite a difficult period.
But for me personally I'm veryproud particularly of the 97
series where I was player of theseries, had a particularly good
(10:40):
year with the ball and in mylast year playing for England in
1999, I became quite dominantwith the bats as well and was
instrumental, I think, inhelping the team win an ODI at
Trent Bridge against India.
I came up the order, more upthe order than what I should
have to bat and, yeah, I kind ofhopefully changed the momentum
(11:00):
of the game.
So I'm particularly proud ofthose games.
Sue Anstiss (11:04):
Fantastic.
You stopped playing cricket forEngland in 2000 and stepped
away from the sport, but did youalways plan to return in some
way?
Sue Redfern (11:12):
No.
So when I finished playing forEngland I continued playing in
the domestic structure but Ineeded to really kind of think
about a career and think aboutfinancially trying to support
myself rather than rely on myparents.
So I kind of drifted away fromthe game.
I had no intent at that pointto ever make this a career or
(11:34):
think about it being a careerFor me personally.
There wasn't really anythingthere which you could make a
career from In those days.
There was a little bit ofcoaching, but not a huge amount,
and there weren't that manyopportunities for women in the
sport.
So you know, for me personallyI went off and pursued other
things and it was only throughchance that one of the clubs I
joined had somebody who wasworking for ECB at the time and,
(11:58):
yeah, kind of got me involvedand got me back involved in the
organisation.
Sue Anstiss (12:03):
And you then worked , as they say, at the ECB.
So what were you doing there?
What was your role day to day?
Sue Redfern (12:09):
Yeah, so when I first started working for ECB
back in 2005, my job was to lookafter women's and girls'
cricket in a particular regionso the East and West Midlands
trying to develop new clubs forgirls' cricket and look after
competitions and support thewomen's and girls' game and grow
the game as much as possible.
So that's where I startedwithin ECB.
Sue Anstiss (12:31):
And when did you decide to become an umpire or to
take that route?
Sue Redfern (12:36):
So I finished playing in 2012,.
I decided that cricket playingwas just too painful.
I'd spend about a weekrecovering from each game.
So I decided to hang up myboots and no longer play cricket
.
But I wanted to stay involvedin a recreational perspective.
I was obviously working incricket, but it was really
important to me that I wanted tostay involved from a volunteer
(12:58):
perspective.
So I thought about coaching butdidn't think that was really my
skill set, thought aboutscoring, but that didn't really
appeal.
So I was left with umpiring andit was something my dad had done
previously.
He umpired in the local leagues.
So I picked up the phone to mydad and just said you know, look
, I'm thinking about umpiring.
What do you think?
(13:18):
And he said give it a go.
So I went along to in thewinter of 2012, early 2013,.
I went along to my local countyassociation, warwickshire, and
did the 13 week course then,which taught me all the laws of
cricket, and I immediatelylearned that I actually didn't
understand cricket at all anddidn't know the laws as a player
(13:41):
.
And then, in the summer of 2013, I actually started umpiring,
which was one of the mostscariest experiences.
I was very nervous in my firstgame.
But yeah, took up umpiring fromthere and it's sort of
spiralled from there really andI've been given opportunities
from there.
Sue Anstiss (14:01):
It's interesting what you say, isn't it about the
whole not really understandingall the laws as a player?
So my daughters have all playednetball and I know one of the
things they do for young playersis to encourage them all to
officiate and to maybe thinkabout coaching and almost to get
a whistle in their hands sothat they both add value to the
game and also learn more aroundthe rules and regulations too.
(14:23):
I wonder if that's somethingcricket has done or might think
to do in the future for youngwomen playing the sport.
Sue Redfern (14:30):
Yeah, there's definitely more awareness now of
trying to get existing playersinto different roles, getting
them to give them a go,particularly at a young age.
So the Dynamo's cricket programthat ECB run I know that they
do alongside the actual play inhas introduced the scoring and
the umpiring element as well,and there are young officials as
(14:53):
well, which is fantastic.
I'm part of a program where I'msupporting the professional
women's teams in terms of just abit more of a laws awareness, a
regulations awareness.
So we're trying to worktogether and trying to develop
relationships as we move throughto the start of the season to
help build rapport, but to alsoraise awareness and
(15:13):
understanding of the laws,because it's something I feel
quite passionate about that ifI'd have known the laws better
as a player, I would have beenable to use those laws and
regulations better and I mighthave been a better cricketer,
and I do feel quite stronglyabout that.
Sue Anstiss (15:28):
And did you feel welcomed as a female coming into
that umpiring space when youfirst started out in 2012?
Sue Redfern (15:35):
Yeah, there was definitely a mixed reactions.
First of all, for a long timeand in some circles it's still
assumed that I'm there as ascorer.
Obviously there's a lot ofhistory associated with maybe
the perception of an officialand cricketer is a very male
dominated perception and that'ssomething that the more we're
(15:57):
visible, the more females arevisible in the role, the better
that becomes.
And yeah, certainly there weremixed emotions and there were
mixed reactions.
People often ask me if I wastreated any differently on the
field being a female and it'shard to tell really whether or
not actually I was being testedas a new umpire or I was being
tested because I was female.
(16:17):
But the one thing that I kindof do understand and I am aware
of is there's probably anassumed knowledge if you're male
, people just assume that youknow the game, whereas as a
female they probably don'tassume you know the game.
Obviously there's a little bitmore education and a little bit
more raising awareness to doreally within the game.
Sue Anstiss (16:38):
And do you think being a woman has helped you in
cases as an umpire, especiallyumpiring the men's game?
Sue Redfern (16:46):
Yeah, they're a very different umpire and men's
and women's cricket is verydifferent.
But in terms of being a femalein both environments, you know,
I think it's a real positivebecause it just changes.
You know, it changes thatperception on the field and it
changes the dynamics sometimeson the field.
Maybe it changes over time, butpeople are a little bit more
respectful and they're a littlebit more aware that there's a
(17:07):
female on the pitch when I'm inmen's cricket which you know I
don't really expect, but it's akind of like counter positive
almost in a way.
So it does feel like thebehaviour is a little bit better
sometimes.
So I do feel very fortunatethere.
But like I say, you know, theenvironments are very different
and the skill sets in some wayscan be different when you're
umpiring men's cricket andumpiring women's cricket.
(17:29):
So obviously for me personallyI want to continue to progress
umpiring in both formats, in themen's game and the women's game
and obviously, you know, for meit's important I keep
developing those skills, thesofter skills, not just the
technical skills as well.
So it's a really important kindof aspect of the game.
Sue Anstiss (17:47):
I was going to ask you that, in terms of that,
umpires and referees havingdifferent stars and the way they
interact with players, I thinkwe're both quite big fans of
Nigel Owens, the recent retiredrugby referee, so I wonder what
kind of umpire are you?
Would you describe yourself asan, and is your style changing
as you get more experience overtime?
Sue Redfern (18:07):
Yeah, I think you know every game is a learning
curve for me.
I'm relatively new.
In some environments,particularly in the men's
multi-day environment, I'mrelatively new and you learn a
lot about yourself, you learnabout the game, you learn about
the reactions of players and youknow just those softer skills
are the biggest things which youcontinue to learn and I hope
I'm learning and I hope I'madapting my style accordingly.
(18:29):
One of the big changes I made in2019 was somebody pointed out
to me a good colleague of minepointed out to me that I wasn't
bringing my personality into myofficiating.
I was trying to be somebodyelse and that was a really big
change for me in terms of justbeing able to be yourself on
field and back yourself and justbe your natural self and I
(18:49):
think then it kind of like takesout all of the pressure because
you're not having to overthinkcertain things.
So, you know, I like I'm anaturally talkative person, I'm
a naturally smiley person, Ilike to have a little bit of fun
and if I get that opportunityon the field and if I can smile
on the field, it makes me feelmore comfortable and hopefully
my style, you know, kind of likecomes across and you know,
(19:12):
hopefully I'm more approachableto the players and you know,
hopefully I can make betterdecisions because I'm more
relaxed.
Sue Anstiss (19:18):
I spoke to Sean Macielus, the professional
football referee for the podcast, and she talked about how her
job gives her the best seat inthe house at football games.
Is that how you feel?
Sue Redfern (19:30):
Yep, if only there was a seat I could sit on rather
than stand for eight hours.
But yeah, definitely,definitely, it's the best seat
in the house in terms ofwatching some amazing crickets,
some amazing cricketers, andjust watching a game which you
know, has shaped me throughoutmy whole life.
You know, I've been involved incricket since I was nine years
(19:51):
old, so you know, to see itadapt and to see it transform
and to see where the women'sgame is now in particular, for
me is a really special thing,and to see some young talent
coming through and some reallyexciting stuff.
You know things, I was verymuch when I was batting.
When I was a player, I was verymuch traditional, I was, I
liked to hit it in certain areas, whereas now, you know, players
(20:13):
hit it 360 and I'm not entirelysure how they get there, but
it's fascinating to watch and Ido have the best seat in the
house.
So, yeah, absolutely, it's anenjoyable place to be.
Sue Anstiss (20:23):
Talking of football , we do see officials,
especially female officials,that take quite a lot of abuse.
I wonder is that something thatyou've experienced at all, or
do we?
It's not really like that incricket.
Is it very different to othersports?
Sue Redfern (20:36):
Yeah, I think whenever you bring sport into it
, it's a passionate thing, isn'tit?
So you know, there's alwaysgoing to be emotions, there's
always going to be opinions onyour decisions, and I think it's
how you deal with that, how youreact to that and whether or
not escalates or not.
I have been unfortunate thatI've experienced some physical
(20:57):
abuse on a cricket pitch many,many years ago in the
recreational game.
I was fully supported by myleague at that point and it was
fully dealt with.
But it does remind you that youknow there needs to be more
work, more awareness done around, kind of like managing that and
dealing with the small minorityof people who unfortunately go
(21:17):
a little bit too far.
Sue Anstiss (21:19):
Yeah, that's awful, isn't it we don't think about.
It's funny how we have theseperceptions of different sports,
but you almost don't thinkabout that.
In cricket, don't you thinkthere's a lot of emotions very
lovely and charming, and not.
You know that aggression andvitriol.
Sue Redfern (21:31):
We do say some people definitely have white
line fever, so once they stepover the boundary they become
different personalities.
So we do say that exists withincricket sometimes.
Sue Anstiss (21:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
And how much has DRS changedthe way you umpire?
Has it made you better at yourrole, do you feel, and I wonder
also, how do you improve?
Is that helping you to kind ofimprove and develop your skills?
Sue Redfern (21:54):
Yeah.
So I consider myself to be in avery fortunate position that
most of my games are now onvideo.
A lot of my games are DRS,which recreational cricket
umpires don't have thatopportunity in some cases.
Video technology is brilliantbecause it means that we can
review and look through how we,how our body posture is, how our
(22:16):
decision making is.
We can look at some of ourdecisions, we can look at some
scenarios.
Drs gives you as best aspossible, you know, definitive
answer to whether or not you'remaking errors or you're not
making errors.
So you can identify trends, youcan identify areas where you
need to develop on.
So for me personally, it'sgreat.
In a game in particular, it'sgreat.
(22:37):
I like to know whether I'm rightor wrong with the technology,
even if it has or has not beenreviewed, simply because I can
use it as a marker and I canlearn things from the decision
making I've currently done inthe game and hopefully make my
decision making betterthroughout the game.
But then at the end of the gameas well, it's really important
to review that decision makingand, like I say, you can
(22:57):
identify those trends, the odddecision the reality is as
officials, the sooner you acceptthat you are going to make
errors and how you deal withthose errors is really important
.
We're just human, just like theplayers, make mistakes.
But if I'm making the samemistake time and time again,
that's something I can improveon.
There's something wrong there,so I have to change how I'm
(23:19):
doing things, and that's whereDRS can help me with that.
Video technology can help mewith that.
So for me personally, I thinkit's a really positive thing.
Sue Anstiss (23:28):
And what do you think it is that makes a great
umpire?
Sue Redfern (23:33):
When I look at the people who I look up to as
umpiring, I think I look at theability to be very calm in all
situations and to be able toreact in a positive but
consistent way.
So for me, a great umpire issomebody who's very composed,
very calm, who can deal with allsituations and who can
(23:56):
obviously diffuse situations, aswell as players.
So that player rapport, thatcommunication and also as well
that consistency, understandingof laws, regulations and being
able to apply it at the righttime.
For me, that's the people thatI look up to, who study the game
, who then actually deliver inthe game, as well as good
(24:16):
communicators with bothcolleagues and players.
So they're definitely thepeople that I look up to.
Sue Anstiss (24:23):
And I mentioned in the introduction about how
you've umpired so many big gamesand world cups, and one of them
was the 2017 Women's World Cupand how did that feel, having
played in it yourself 20 yearsearlier, in 1997?
I wonder what your reflectionswere around being back at a
women's world cup, but in suchdifferent circumstances.
Sue Redfern (24:44):
Yeah, I mean, I'm so lucky to be given that
opportunity second time round ina different role.
If I'm being blunt and honest,was I ready?
Was I experienced enough?
An umpire Possibly not.
It was a very steep learningcurve.
There were colleagues around inthat particular tournament who
were really supportive andhelpful.
It was a tournament where wedidn't have DRS and didn't have
(25:05):
video in each of the games, sothere was a lot of learning to
be done in there as well.
But, yeah, I feel immenselyproud that I've had the
opportunity and I know that thework I've been doing,
particularly since 2015 andbeyond.
I've worked hard to be giventhose opportunities and
hopefully I can learn from eachexperience.
(25:26):
But the 2017, obviously being afirst world cup as an umpire,
was a special thing.
It, being in England,incredibly special to be part of
that and, just like any fan atthe end of the tournament, when
my time was done at the end ofthe group stages, I become an
England fan again, you know, andto see England do what they did
in the final in 2017 was justincredible.
(25:50):
It was a very special.
I was in the stands watchingthe game just like any other
supporter of England really.
Sue Anstiss (25:55):
Fabulous, I was there.
It was amazing, amazingatmosphere, wasn't it?
Sue Redfern (25:59):
Unbelievable experience.
Unbelievable experience.
Sue Anstiss (26:03):
I mentioned Nigel Owens earlier because I know
I've heard you mentionedelsewhere that he admires his
kind of style and the way thathe deals with issues when he's
playing.
But I did interview him.
I was lucky to interview him atthe event once and he talked
about how he often feelsphysically sick before those big
games, like huge nerves, and Iimagine there's pressure for you
(26:24):
in the big games but also thatextra pressure of knowing you're
being watched often as thefirst woman to do something.
So I wonder first of all do youget nervous before big matches
and, if you do, how you dealwith that?
Sue Redfern (26:36):
Yeah, get very nervous on every game I do.
I do feel physically sick andthere are occasions where I
actually physically I'm shakingbefore a game and I like to just
get my voice heard.
So I like to call play or liketo say something in the game,
just to get into the game,because I just, you know, kind
of get so nervous and soabsorbed with you know those
(26:59):
nerves and I've worked with witha sports psychologist over the
last few years is to kind oflike put those nerves into a
positive way and how to dealwith them, how to recognise that
if I am under pressure in agame or I start to get nervous,
I can do things where basicallyit can calm me down and it can
distract me and it can bring meback into the moment, because
(27:20):
part of the officiating isreally not thinking about the
past or not thinking about thefuture.
You've got to be in the momentor you're going to continue to
make errors.
So one of the biggest thingsfor me is off field is to kind
of like, you know, work as hardas possible to get some
techniques to really stay in themoment and just really deal
with those nerves.
Sue Anstiss (27:39):
And it's hugely pressured, isn't it?
I was thinking, even inpreparing to talk to you, but
those kind of moments whenyou've got to make really quick
or what could be controversialdecisions on the field, what
that's going to techniques thento tune out what's around you,
and also that pressure to remainfocused for such a long time,
to remain in the moment, becauseI can imagine I'd be drifting
(28:01):
away and looking at what's goingon elsewhere within the game
itself.
Sue Redfern (28:05):
Yeah, so we talk a lot in cricket most of the
formats you do have a lot oftime to overthink things, so you
do have to stay in the momentand you do have to do things
that keep you in the moment.
But, at the same time as well,you can't concentrate for eight
hours just full on concentration, so you have to learn to switch
up, switch down.
So we talk a lot, like players,about switching up and
(28:26):
switching down, when to dointense focus, when not to focus
and when to look.
And what you're looking at andyou know part of that is about
just you know, as I mentionedearlier is about being me.
It's just about bringing my ownpersonality onto the field,
because you can't fake eighthours of a personality, because
at some point there's going tobe some breaking points.
So you've got to be yourselfand you've got to behave in your
(28:49):
way to hopefully be the bestyou can be on the field.
And, yeah, eight hours is along time, concentration wise.
So, and then, obviously, if youmake errors, even if it's
perceived or known errors,what's important is you stay in
that moment and you get yourselfback to the next ball, because
that's the most important thing,what's happening right now.
So it is important that youpractice that and you have
(29:12):
techniques to do that.
Sue Anstiss (29:14):
Does it frustrate you when you're being celebrated
as the first woman forunparrying what might be lower
level men's games, say in thecounty championship, when you've
already un-pired women's WorldCups, international World Cups
and so on?
Sue Redfern (29:29):
Yeah, it's a really interesting kind of like debate
really and thought process frommy perspective.
What I've achieved in thewomen's game I'm immensely proud
of and you know the level andthe standard international
cricket I've been very fortunateto be involved in a
Commonwealth Games final andalso World Cup final.
Now is TV Empire andsemi-finals on field for
(29:53):
different tournaments.
So you know that's massive andthe crowds are massive and the
women's game is ever developingand you know, in terms of the
skill sets, in terms of thequalities and the empire, it's
exactly the same as un-piringany other game.
But you know that's a reallybig achievement which I'm
immensely proud of.
In relation to the men's game, Ithink what's really important
(30:16):
and it's understanding what myrole is in that game, because it
is something that you know thepopulation isn't used to seeing
female umpires, female officialsin those environments and is
getting better now with therugby and the football and other
sports that are moving intothis area faster sometimes than
cricket.
And what's really important is Iknow I've got a role that you
(30:38):
know I'm very fortunate to begiven this position, very
privileged, and it's reallyimportant that that visibility
is there in the men's game.
So I get that.
You know, for the largeproportion of sports fans
they've not seen this before andit's maybe a big thing.
But for me personally it isbecause it's a new environment
and it's an elite environment,just like the women's game.
(31:00):
But for me personally it hasits own different priority.
For me and it is important thatyou know, I get that there's
that awareness around, kind oflike in that visibility.
But in terms of the skill sets,you know, like I said earlier,
umpiring the women's game insome ways is harder than
umpiring in men's environments.
(31:21):
They have their own challengesin the men's game in terms of
how to umpire those environments, but for me personally, for
different reasons, they'reequally as challenging.
Sue Anstiss (31:32):
And I was going to say how lovely it was that
Billie Jean King celebrated yourgroundbreaking role in men's
county cricket in a post onTwitter last September.
So how did that feel?
I remember being thinking, ohmy God, that's fabulous.
Sue Redfern (31:43):
at the time, yeah, it's not very often so I'm
speechless, but what a legendshe is.
And for her to pick upsomething I'm doing, yeah, just
speechless, just blown away, tobe honest.
Sue Anstiss (31:56):
A couple of years ago you became a full time
umpire, so one of the 34employed by the CB, which is
fantastic news but also slightlydisappointing that you are the
only woman amongst thoseindividuals.
So I just wonder what thenumbers are generally female
umpires across cricket right nowand do you feel it is kind of
(32:17):
changing and we're moving in theright direction?
Sue Redfern (32:19):
Yeah, you know I would like to see the growth of
more female officials.
More I would like more in thegame.
I think what I've seen over thelast five or six years in
particular accelerated over thelast few years with the
introduction of the women'sprofessional game, having a
women's pathway that is tryingto support the growth of more
(32:40):
female officials.
Your likes of Anna Harriscoming through that program,
jasmine Naim and Sophie McKellenmaking a test debut as well.
You know that's great and whatI am seeing is there is
definitely a raised awarenessand there are more females
umpiring.
But we need to accelerate that.
We need more opportunities andI know that the ECB have
(33:02):
implemented a new umpiringcourse which looks at
introduction to umpiring whichhopefully is more appealing for
different sections of thecommunity who don't have as much
experience of cricket playingas maybe historically what was
probably people perceived theywould need before they took up
umpiring.
So hopefully we can make iteasier and more accessible for
(33:23):
more females and more umpires,just in general, to take up
umpiring.
But I've definitely seen theopportunities changing the
International Cricket Council aswell.
They're really positive withwomen's growth in both match
referee roles and umpiring rolesand they've been incredibly
supportive as to have the ECBwith the women's pathway, like I
(33:44):
say, over those last three orfour years.
Sue Anstiss (33:46):
It's good to see and good to hear, as you say,
similar conversations going onin rugby and cricket and other
such sports and whether there'sa need for a female-only pathway
and whether you can havesuccess in that route or
actually you can keep gettingpushed back into the men's
pathway to have success beforeyou succeed in the female sector
too.
But I guess we need more ofthose female games taking place
(34:08):
to umpire.
Sue Redfern (34:09):
Yeah, I think we absolutely the utopia of
officiating should be thatanybody, regardless of gender,
can on fire any game.
That's the end goal and I thinkthat's really important that you
know we look at that and itbecomes normal that men on fire
women, women on fire men.
It becomes normal thing.
But in the interim, you know,maybe we need to be a bit more
(34:30):
positive action to try andencourage as many females as
possible, particularly in thefemale women's environment, and
then transfer into the men'senvironment as well.
So you know, for me personally,when I was on firing in the
recreational game, it was agiven that I to progress, I had
to on fire men's cricket,whereas now that's not the case
(34:54):
and that's a really importantchange to encourage more females
to get involved in the game.
Definitely, definitely theutopia would be to have it's
regardless of the gender.
You just on fire, the levelwhich you're capable of on
firing out and the skillsets arethere that you on fire.
You've got the right skill setsfor the men's game, you've got
the right skill sets for thewomen's game and if you, if you
(35:14):
good enough, then you shouldjust do whichever game is suited
.
Sue Anstiss (35:17):
Nothing surprises me much in women's sport these
days, but I was genuinelyshocked last year when I read
that the umpires were paid threetimes more for the men's
hundred games than the women's,and the umpire three I think for
the women's final was athousand pound where the men's
was two thousand five hundred,and obviously this impacts women
far more than the men because,as you've said, we talked about
(35:39):
those contracts and more ofthose men are on the full time
contracts to what we are seeingsimilar issues I know in in
sports that will be in cricket.
So I do wonder, without puttingyou on the spot on that
specific issue, but if you werein charge of the entire program,
what changes could we be making?
Do you think they've obviouslygot a pathway, but Are there any
things you'd love to come havegiven you the opportunity?
(36:00):
What any?
Any things you particularlylike to change?
Sue Redfern (36:04):
Yeah, I think what's important is we recognize
how quickly women's cricket isgrowing and how fast pace that
growth is and what opportunitythat you know exist with the
commercial side of the women'sgame.
For me personally, like I sayyou know, there's no difference
in my opinion.
It's just my personal opinion.
You know I'm an umpire that thegame is different, slightly
(36:27):
different in terms of the skillsets needed, but it's still
elite, professional sport.
So the utopia is absolutelythere shouldn't be any
difference in that Parity andit's important that we move
towards that and the ICCrecently have announced that
that's exactly what they'regoing to do.
They're going to move towardsthat pay parity, which is
(36:47):
fantastic and it's recognizedthat.
Ultimately, you know, as anumpire I have certain roles that
I have to do and they'reexactly the same in the men's
game and in the women's game.
There's no difference there andthat's really important that we
we continue to move forward asthe games progress and the
elitism progresses within thegames itself.
Sue Anstiss (37:08):
If a young woman told you today that she'd like
to be a cricket umpire in thefuture, what sort of advice
would you be giving to her?
Sue Redfern (37:15):
Yep, probably three pieces of advice.
I might get this wrong I'm notvery good at counting, which is
not great for cricket umpiring,but my three pieces of ice would
be first of all, find yourselfpeople who will help you and
will, you know, show you how toumpire and learn from those
people.
It's also, then, about enjoyingyourself.
You know that that's thebiggest thing really is just
(37:38):
enjoy it.
Things will happen if you enjoyit and you surround yourself
with the right people and,ultimately then, if you work on
the right skills.
So you know, for me personallyas an as an official, one thing
that's an absolute given that'sexpected of you as an official
is that you know the regulationsand the laws, you know their
things that you can do, whicharen't relevant on the on field
(38:00):
at the time, you can do in thewinter and you can work towards
in the winter.
So you know if you work hardand study and train and
understand your field craft, ifyou enjoy it and if you also
learn from others.
Because ultimately, as acricket umpire, I've not I've
not introduced anythingdifferent to what previous
(38:20):
umpires have done.
I've just used what previousumpires of use, what are right
for me and my style.
So that's all through learningfrom my colleagues.
Sue Anstiss (38:30):
Lovely and finally, why your goals and aspirations
looking ahead, is there stillmuch more that you want to go on
to achieve in your career as anumpire?
Sue Redfern (38:40):
Yeah, absolutely I want to.
Being full time now as aprofessional umpire gives me the
opportunity to be the bestversion of me I can be.
I can really focus my time oneither recovering, resting or
preparing to be a better umpire.
So, you know, for me,absolutely my aspiration is to
(39:02):
consolidate what, what I'veachieved so far, to recognize
and you know I should reallycelebrate what I've achieved but
, you know, to consolidate thatand to keep performing in those
environments but ultimately tobe given the opportunity to, to
work in new environments.
So in new, you know, obviouslyin different pathways and in
higher level matches in terms ofthe men's game, obviously the
(39:24):
women's game.
It's consolidation at thehighest level and making sure I
can be the best version of me Ican be.
So I'm always going to haveaspirations.
For me personally, I want toplay and officiate multi-day
cricket more.
For me, that's my most likedversion of cricket.
I love test match cricket, Ilove multi-day cricket.
(39:45):
It's just a different dynamic.
I'm very traditional in thatoutlook.
So, yeah, for me, that's myaspiration is to do that
consolidation, but that learningin new environments as well.
Sue Anstiss (40:02):
I followed Sue's career for a long time.
What a pleasure it was tofinally speak to her in person.
If you enjoyed the podcast,there are over 160 episodes
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(40:25):
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At Sue and Stis, the gamechanges.
Fearless women in sport.
Hello and welcome to the Game Changers.
I'm Sue Anstiss, and this is apodcast where you'll hear from
trailblazing women in sport whoare knocking down barriers and
challenging the status quo forwomen and girls everywhere.
What can we learn from theirjourneys as we explore some of
the key issues around equalityin sport and beyond?
I'd like to start with a bigthank you to our partners, sport
(00:25):
England, who support the GameChangers podcast through a
national lottery award.
My guest today is cricketumpire and former England player
, Sue Redfern.
Sue became the youngest everfemale to play cricket for
England when she started hercareer at just 16 and went on to
(00:45):
represent her country for thenext five years, including
playing in the 1997 World Cup inIndia.
Being retired from the game andmoved away from cricket, sue
came back to work at the ECB and, in 2012, decided to give
umpiring a go.
Her impact over the followingdecade has been quite remarkable
(01:05):
and she's now a member of theprofessional umpire team for
domestic cricket in England.
She's also an internationaldevelopment panel umpire for the
International Cricket Counciland has umpired various
international matches, includingfive World Cups.
In 2018, she was awarded an MBEfor her services to women's
cricket and last year became thefirst female to umpire in a
(01:28):
men's first class cricket matchin England.
Sue, you're clearly now verywell known for breaking barriers
as a cricket umpire, but I'dlike to start, if I can, with
your playing career and how youinitially found cricket.
Sue Redfern (01:44):
Yeah, thanks Sue.
Yeah, I've been very lucky inmy umpiring career, but I first
got into cricket playing when Iwas a youngster.
My family my father was acricketer, played second 11
crickets and my brother, who'stwo years older than me, also
played cricket.
So it was inevitable I wasgoing to get pulled in, sucked
into it.
It wasn't actually my firstsport as a child, but eventually
(02:07):
I saw the light and, yeah, tookup cricket playing and it went
from there really.
Sue Anstiss (02:12):
And did you see other girls playing?
Sue Redfern (02:14):
At the time.
No, I didn't see other girlsplaying.
It was very much.
I played in my boys club in mybrother's club for a local club
in Nottingham shire calledEastwood Town and I went through
their age group boys teamsbefore there was a women's team
which Mum and Dad identifiedover in Derbyshire.
So I was very much playing boyscricket.
(02:35):
I was very lucky that I wasplaying representative county
cricket in the boys age groupsand then at 13 Mum and Dad found
a women's cricket club butthere was no junior girls
cricket.
So again there was a big agegroup for me so I was playing
alongside adults and there was abig age gap when I was playing
senior women's cricket.
Sue Anstiss (02:53):
And you mentioned that you've played other sports
as well.
I believe you were rather goodat badminton, so can I tell us
about that and that opportunitythat you had to play in the US?
Sue Redfern (03:03):
Yes, so I was very lucky that I played badminton
locally and I played a littlebit of county badminton and I
entered some tournaments and ata tournament which I won when I
was under 16 I was offered ascholarship to America to play
scholarship badminton and tryand progress badminton, but I
chose to stay at home.
(03:24):
I think I would have been alittle bit homesick at that
point.
I didn't want to leave Mum andDad and fly all the way to
America and be on my own inAmerica.
So that was the end of mybadminton.
But it was my main sportgrowing up and it's a fantastic
sport.
I love it still.
I enjoy watching it as well.
Sue Anstiss (03:40):
I sense a huge amount of humility here in
talking to you already in thewhole, I was just playing a
little bit of badminton and thenthey invited me off to have a
scholarship in the US.
Sue Redfern (03:50):
Yeah, I suppose.
So it was all a bit of asurprise to me, to be honest,
because I did enjoy my badminton.
I particularly enjoyed playingsingles and played a little bit
of doubles as well with a reallygreat partner.
But yeah, it all came as verymuch as a surprise.
Just very lucky really that Iwas sighted by a scout and they
(04:10):
offered that opportunity.
Sue Anstiss (04:12):
You then got your call up for England in terms of
cricket, when you were just 16,so how did that feel to be so
young in that squad.
Sue Redfern (04:21):
Yes, it was quite a surprise that I was called up
to the England winter trainingsquad.
The year before in 1993 I wasactually watching the Women's
World Cup final at Lords andwatching all my heroes play and
win that final against NewZealand and then the following
winter here I was just 16 yearsold and actually taking part in
(04:43):
the winter training alongsidethese amazing players who just
recently won the World Cup.
So, yeah, I couldn't believe it.
To be perfectly honest, sue,that I was selected.
Obviously I'd been alongsidesome of those players in my
county team and played againstall of the players in the county
championship, which was aweek-long tournament in those
(05:04):
days where we played likeYorkshire and the other strong
teams like the West Midlands aswell.
So, yeah, it was very much asurprise when I got into the
winter training and then I wenton my first tour to Ireland in
the European Championship.
So, yeah, I was very lucky.
Sue Anstiss (05:20):
Was that your first England debut?
Was then Ireland, or when wasyour first proper big tour?
Sue Redfern (05:25):
Yeah, so my first tour was Ireland in the European
Championship in 1995.
We went over and played that'swhere I made my debut for One
Day Internationals.
And then, when I came back fromthat in July August, there was
an opportunity for a winter tour, which was India, and I was
lucky to be selected.
I came back from Irelandinjured, so it was a race
(05:48):
against time to recover from aninjury and ankle injury I had,
but I managed to make the planeand have a seven week tour which
involved Test Match Cricketwhere I made my debut in Test
Matches and ODIs.
So yeah, that was my first.
I was just under 18 at thatpoint, so I was very young and
yeah, I was on tour for sevenweeks to India.
Sue Anstiss (06:09):
And that must have been the most incredible
experience just to be away fromhome, but in such a different
culture and with those women whoyou've kind of been watching
and, I imagine, not idealisingas England players in the past.
Sue Redfern (06:22):
Yeah, very much.
So I knew maybe four or five ofthe squad who played for my own
county.
So you know they were familiarwith me.
They'd know me since I wasabout 13 years old.
But for the large part this wasa new experience for me.
I hadn't been around themoverly socially.
But for seven weeks in Indiathey become your extended family
(06:44):
, which is one of the partsabout cricket is it takes so
long.
Sometimes you're away for along period of time and they are
your team, but they're also,they become your family when
you're on tour.
They're the people that youtrust, the people that you rely
on and the people that lookafter you.
So you know, we've all got ourown kind of like personalities
and we all kind of like levitatetowards people who we're more
(07:06):
friendly with.
But everybody was respectfuland looked after each other and
there were some laughs on tourand there were some you know
challenges on tour as well.
Seven weeks in India was adifficult tour back in the 1990s
and we worked together as ateam really.
Sue Anstiss (07:22):
And can you paint a bit of a picture of what it was
like to represent your countryas a woman playing cricket in
the 90s and how much that'schanged for today's players that
might be heading out on tour?
Sue Redfern (07:33):
Yeah, there's so much that's changed in women's
cricket over the last couple ofdecades.
I mean, you know, I played inthe 1990s.
We were mostly funded at thispoint.
Previously it would have beenfully funded by the player
themselves.
I mean, we were lucky that wewere.
Everything was covered with theexception of maybe a little bit
of clothing.
But we weren't professional, wewere amateur cricketers.
(07:53):
So we all had different jobs.
For me personally, I had threecasual jobs to try and get a bit
of an income outside of cricketplaying so I could take time
off to come and play.
But you know, we trainedregular, just like a
professional team would.
We trained as much as we could.
We didn't have that specialistsupport.
I think we had one coach withus, a manager and a
(08:17):
physiotherapist when we wentover in 1995.
Whereas now, obviously there'sa lot of specialisms, a lot of
different people who aresupporting the teams and
obviously for us we did playTest Match cricket and that was
the main bulk of the series.
So we were away for a longamount of time because of,
obviously, test Match crickettakes four days for each game.
So yeah, it looks verydifferent to us.
(08:38):
It was the selection side of it, the professionalism, the
individual support.
It's totally different to howit was, I suppose to when we
were touring in the 90s.
Sue Anstiss (08:49):
And there's obviously been much discussion
recently around women's sportsclothing.
Even in the last couple ofyears and I know last year,
finally, international hockeymade changes to allow players to
play in shorts as well assports and skirts.
Obviously, you started playingcricket in a skirt at that time,
so can you really sort of thinkback to how those changes were
received at the time?
Sue Redfern (09:10):
Yeah, so there was a big debate in the back in late
1990s about whether or not thegame should continue in skirts
or it would move to trousers.
There was a very big splitbetween the traditionalists and
obviously the practical side aswell, and for me personally, I
really enjoyed playing in askirt, but I saw the
(09:33):
practicality and the danger ofbeing able to be more dynamic
and more athletic sliding anddiving on surfaces.
It did make sense to move totrousers, but I enjoyed my skirt
playing days, I suppose.
Sue Anstiss (09:50):
And looking back on your cricketing career, your
playing career, what are some ofthose most memorable moments
for you?
Sue Redfern (09:57):
Yeah, I think making my ODI debut in Ireland
and also making my test debut inIndia are obviously big
highlights for me.
We had a challenging period inthe 1990s.
Australia very similar to nowreally are very strong, are very
dominant.
India had a very dominant,strong side.
(10:18):
So as a team after the WorldCup victory in 1993, it was
probably a rebuilding period.
There were a lot of games therewhich were quite challenging to
be part of.
It was quite a difficult period.
But for me personally I'm veryproud particularly of the 97
series where I was player of theseries, had a particularly good
(10:40):
year with the ball and in mylast year playing for England in
1999, I became quite dominantwith the bats as well and was
instrumental, I think, inhelping the team win an ODI at
Trent Bridge against India.
I came up the order, more upthe order than what I should
have to bat and, yeah, I kind ofhopefully changed the momentum
(11:00):
of the game.
So I'm particularly proud ofthose games.
Sue Anstiss (11:04):
Fantastic.
You stopped playing cricket forEngland in 2000 and stepped
away from the sport, but did youalways plan to return in some
way?
Sue Redfern (11:12):
No.
So when I finished playing forEngland I continued playing in
the domestic structure but Ineeded to really kind of think
about a career and think aboutfinancially trying to support
myself rather than rely on myparents.
So I kind of drifted away fromthe game.
I had no intent at that pointto ever make this a career or
(11:34):
think about it being a careerFor me personally.
There wasn't really anythingthere which you could make a
career from In those days.
There was a little bit ofcoaching, but not a huge amount,
and there weren't that manyopportunities for women in the
sport.
So you know, for me personallyI went off and pursued other
things and it was only throughchance that one of the clubs I
joined had somebody who wasworking for ECB at the time and,
(11:58):
yeah, kind of got me involvedand got me back involved in the
organisation.
Sue Anstiss (12:03):
And you then worked , as they say, at the ECB.
So what were you doing there?
What was your role day to day?
Sue Redfern (12:09):
Yeah, so when I first started working for ECB
back in 2005, my job was to lookafter women's and girls'
cricket in a particular regionso the East and West Midlands
trying to develop new clubs forgirls' cricket and look after
competitions and support thewomen's and girls' game and grow
the game as much as possible.
So that's where I startedwithin ECB.
Sue Anstiss (12:31):
And when did you decide to become an umpire or to
take that route?
Sue Redfern (12:36):
So I finished playing in 2012,.
I decided that cricket playingwas just too painful.
I'd spend about a weekrecovering from each game.
So I decided to hang up myboots and no longer play cricket
.
But I wanted to stay involvedin a recreational perspective.
I was obviously working incricket, but it was really
important to me that I wanted tostay involved from a volunteer
(12:58):
perspective.
So I thought about coaching butdidn't think that was really my
skill set, thought aboutscoring, but that didn't really
appeal.
So I was left with umpiring andit was something my dad had done
previously.
He umpired in the local leagues.
So I picked up the phone to mydad and just said you know, look
, I'm thinking about umpiring.
What do you think?
(13:18):
And he said give it a go.
So I went along to in thewinter of 2012, early 2013,.
I went along to my local countyassociation, warwickshire, and
did the 13 week course then,which taught me all the laws of
cricket, and I immediatelylearned that I actually didn't
understand cricket at all anddidn't know the laws as a player
(13:41):
.
And then, in the summer of 2013, I actually started umpiring,
which was one of the mostscariest experiences.
I was very nervous in my firstgame.
But yeah, took up umpiring fromthere and it's sort of
spiralled from there really andI've been given opportunities
from there.
Sue Anstiss (14:01):
It's interesting what you say, isn't it about the
whole not really understandingall the laws as a player?
So my daughters have all playednetball and I know one of the
things they do for young playersis to encourage them all to
officiate and to maybe thinkabout coaching and almost to get
a whistle in their hands sothat they both add value to the
game and also learn more aroundthe rules and regulations too.
(14:23):
I wonder if that's somethingcricket has done or might think
to do in the future for youngwomen playing the sport.
Sue Redfern (14:30):
Yeah, there's definitely more awareness now of
trying to get existing playersinto different roles, getting
them to give them a go,particularly at a young age.
So the Dynamo's cricket programthat ECB run I know that they
do alongside the actual play inhas introduced the scoring and
the umpiring element as well,and there are young officials as
(14:53):
well, which is fantastic.
I'm part of a program where I'msupporting the professional
women's teams in terms of just abit more of a laws awareness, a
regulations awareness.
So we're trying to worktogether and trying to develop
relationships as we move throughto the start of the season to
help build rapport, but to alsoraise awareness and
(15:13):
understanding of the laws,because it's something I feel
quite passionate about that ifI'd have known the laws better
as a player, I would have beenable to use those laws and
regulations better and I mighthave been a better cricketer,
and I do feel quite stronglyabout that.
Sue Anstiss (15:28):
And did you feel welcomed as a female coming into
that umpiring space when youfirst started out in 2012?
Sue Redfern (15:35):
Yeah, there was definitely a mixed reactions.
First of all, for a long timeand in some circles it's still
assumed that I'm there as ascorer.
Obviously there's a lot ofhistory associated with maybe
the perception of an officialand cricketer is a very male
dominated perception and that'ssomething that the more we're
(15:57):
visible, the more females arevisible in the role, the better
that becomes.
And yeah, certainly there weremixed emotions and there were
mixed reactions.
People often ask me if I wastreated any differently on the
field being a female and it'shard to tell really whether or
not actually I was being testedas a new umpire or I was being
tested because I was female.
(16:17):
But the one thing that I kindof do understand and I am aware
of is there's probably anassumed knowledge if you're male
, people just assume that youknow the game, whereas as a
female they probably don'tassume you know the game.
Obviously there's a little bitmore education and a little bit
more raising awareness to doreally within the game.
Sue Anstiss (16:38):
And do you think being a woman has helped you in
cases as an umpire, especiallyumpiring the men's game?
Sue Redfern (16:46):
Yeah, they're a very different umpire and men's
and women's cricket is verydifferent.
But in terms of being a femalein both environments, you know,
I think it's a real positivebecause it just changes.
You know, it changes thatperception on the field and it
changes the dynamics sometimeson the field.
Maybe it changes over time, butpeople are a little bit more
respectful and they're a littlebit more aware that there's a
(17:07):
female on the pitch when I'm inmen's cricket which you know I
don't really expect, but it's akind of like counter positive
almost in a way.
So it does feel like thebehaviour is a little bit better
sometimes.
So I do feel very fortunatethere.
But like I say, you know, theenvironments are very different
and the skill sets in some wayscan be different when you're
umpiring men's cricket andumpiring women's cricket.
(17:29):
So obviously for me personallyI want to continue to progress
umpiring in both formats, in themen's game and the women's game
and obviously, you know, for meit's important I keep
developing those skills, thesofter skills, not just the
technical skills as well.
So it's a really important kindof aspect of the game.
Sue Anstiss (17:47):
I was going to ask you that, in terms of that,
umpires and referees havingdifferent stars and the way they
interact with players, I thinkwe're both quite big fans of
Nigel Owens, the recent retiredrugby referee, so I wonder what
kind of umpire are you?
Would you describe yourself asan, and is your style changing
as you get more experience overtime?
Sue Redfern (18:07):
Yeah, I think you know every game is a learning
curve for me.
I'm relatively new.
In some environments,particularly in the men's
multi-day environment, I'mrelatively new and you learn a
lot about yourself, you learnabout the game, you learn about
the reactions of players and youknow just those softer skills
are the biggest things which youcontinue to learn and I hope
I'm learning and I hope I'madapting my style accordingly.
(18:29):
One of the big changes I made in2019 was somebody pointed out
to me a good colleague of minepointed out to me that I wasn't
bringing my personality into myofficiating.
I was trying to be somebodyelse and that was a really big
change for me in terms of justbeing able to be yourself on
field and back yourself and justbe your natural self and I
(18:49):
think then it kind of like takesout all of the pressure because
you're not having to overthinkcertain things.
So, you know, I like I'm anaturally talkative person, I'm
a naturally smiley person, Ilike to have a little bit of fun
and if I get that opportunityon the field and if I can smile
on the field, it makes me feelmore comfortable and hopefully
my style, you know, kind of likecomes across and you know,
(19:12):
hopefully I'm more approachableto the players and you know,
hopefully I can make betterdecisions because I'm more
relaxed.
Sue Anstiss (19:18):
I spoke to Sean Macielus, the professional
football referee for the podcast, and she talked about how her
job gives her the best seat inthe house at football games.
Is that how you feel?
Sue Redfern (19:30):
Yep, if only there was a seat I could sit on rather
than stand for eight hours.
But yeah, definitely,definitely, it's the best seat
in the house in terms ofwatching some amazing crickets,
some amazing cricketers, andjust watching a game which you
know, has shaped me throughoutmy whole life.
You know, I've been involved incricket since I was nine years
(19:51):
old, so you know, to see itadapt and to see it transform
and to see where the women'sgame is now in particular, for
me is a really special thing,and to see some young talent
coming through and some reallyexciting stuff.
You know things, I was verymuch when I was batting.
When I was a player, I was verymuch traditional, I was, I
liked to hit it in certain areas, whereas now, you know, players
(20:13):
hit it 360 and I'm not entirelysure how they get there, but
it's fascinating to watch and Ido have the best seat in the
house.
So, yeah, absolutely, it's anenjoyable place to be.
Sue Anstiss (20:23):
Talking of football , we do see officials,
especially female officials,that take quite a lot of abuse.
I wonder is that something thatyou've experienced at all, or
do we?
It's not really like that incricket.
Is it very different to othersports?
Sue Redfern (20:36):
Yeah, I think whenever you bring sport into it
, it's a passionate thing, isn'tit?
So you know, there's alwaysgoing to be emotions, there's
always going to be opinions onyour decisions, and I think it's
how you deal with that, how youreact to that and whether or
not escalates or not.
I have been unfortunate thatI've experienced some physical
(20:57):
abuse on a cricket pitch many,many years ago in the
recreational game.
I was fully supported by myleague at that point and it was
fully dealt with.
But it does remind you that youknow there needs to be more
work, more awareness done around, kind of like managing that and
dealing with the small minorityof people who unfortunately go
(21:17):
a little bit too far.
Sue Anstiss (21:19):
Yeah, that's awful, isn't it we don't think about.
It's funny how we have theseperceptions of different sports,
but you almost don't thinkabout that.
In cricket, don't you thinkthere's a lot of emotions very
lovely and charming, and not.
You know that aggression andvitriol.
Sue Redfern (21:31):
We do say some people definitely have white
line fever, so once they stepover the boundary they become
different personalities.
So we do say that exists withincricket sometimes.
Sue Anstiss (21:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
And how much has DRS changedthe way you umpire?
Has it made you better at yourrole, do you feel, and I wonder
also, how do you improve?
Is that helping you to kind ofimprove and develop your skills?
Sue Redfern (21:54):
Yeah.
So I consider myself to be in avery fortunate position that
most of my games are now onvideo.
A lot of my games are DRS,which recreational cricket
umpires don't have thatopportunity in some cases.
Video technology is brilliantbecause it means that we can
review and look through how we,how our body posture is, how our
(22:16):
decision making is.
We can look at some of ourdecisions, we can look at some
scenarios.
Drs gives you as best aspossible, you know, definitive
answer to whether or not you'remaking errors or you're not
making errors.
So you can identify trends, youcan identify areas where you
need to develop on.
So for me personally, it'sgreat.
In a game in particular, it'sgreat.
(22:37):
I like to know whether I'm rightor wrong with the technology,
even if it has or has not beenreviewed, simply because I can
use it as a marker and I canlearn things from the decision
making I've currently done inthe game and hopefully make my
decision making betterthroughout the game.
But then at the end of the gameas well, it's really important
to review that decision makingand, like I say, you can
(22:57):
identify those trends, the odddecision the reality is as
officials, the sooner you acceptthat you are going to make
errors and how you deal withthose errors is really important
.
We're just human, just like theplayers, make mistakes.
But if I'm making the samemistake time and time again,
that's something I can improveon.
There's something wrong there,so I have to change how I'm
(23:19):
doing things, and that's whereDRS can help me with that.
Video technology can help mewith that.
So for me personally, I thinkit's a really positive thing.
Sue Anstiss (23:28):
And what do you think it is that makes a great
umpire?
Sue Redfern (23:33):
When I look at the people who I look up to as
umpiring, I think I look at theability to be very calm in all
situations and to be able toreact in a positive but
consistent way.
So for me, a great umpire issomebody who's very composed,
very calm, who can deal with allsituations and who can
(23:56):
obviously diffuse situations, aswell as players.
So that player rapport, thatcommunication and also as well
that consistency, understandingof laws, regulations and being
able to apply it at the righttime.
For me, that's the people thatI look up to, who study the game
, who then actually deliver inthe game, as well as good
(24:16):
communicators with bothcolleagues and players.
So they're definitely thepeople that I look up to.
Sue Anstiss (24:23):
And I mentioned in the introduction about how
you've umpired so many big gamesand world cups, and one of them
was the 2017 Women's World Cupand how did that feel, having
played in it yourself 20 yearsearlier, in 1997?
I wonder what your reflectionswere around being back at a
women's world cup, but in suchdifferent circumstances.
Sue Redfern (24:44):
Yeah, I mean, I'm so lucky to be given that
opportunity second time round ina different role.
If I'm being blunt and honest,was I ready?
Was I experienced enough?
An umpire Possibly not.
It was a very steep learningcurve.
There were colleagues around inthat particular tournament who
were really supportive andhelpful.
It was a tournament where wedidn't have DRS and didn't have
(25:05):
video in each of the games, sothere was a lot of learning to
be done in there as well.
But, yeah, I feel immenselyproud that I've had the
opportunity and I know that thework I've been doing,
particularly since 2015 andbeyond.
I've worked hard to be giventhose opportunities and
hopefully I can learn from eachexperience.
(25:26):
But the 2017, obviously being afirst world cup as an umpire,
was a special thing.
It, being in England,incredibly special to be part of
that and, just like any fan atthe end of the tournament, when
my time was done at the end ofthe group stages, I become an
England fan again, you know, andto see England do what they did
in the final in 2017 was justincredible.
(25:50):
It was a very special.
I was in the stands watchingthe game just like any other
supporter of England really.
Sue Anstiss (25:55):
Fabulous, I was there.
It was amazing, amazingatmosphere, wasn't it?
Sue Redfern (25:59):
Unbelievable experience.
Unbelievable experience.
Sue Anstiss (26:03):
I mentioned Nigel Owens earlier because I know
I've heard you mentionedelsewhere that he admires his
kind of style and the way thathe deals with issues when he's
playing.
But I did interview him.
I was lucky to interview him atthe event once and he talked
about how he often feelsphysically sick before those big
games, like huge nerves, and Iimagine there's pressure for you
(26:24):
in the big games but also thatextra pressure of knowing you're
being watched often as thefirst woman to do something.
So I wonder first of all do youget nervous before big matches
and, if you do, how you dealwith that?
Sue Redfern (26:36):
Yeah, get very nervous on every game I do.
I do feel physically sick andthere are occasions where I
actually physically I'm shakingbefore a game and I like to just
get my voice heard.
So I like to call play or liketo say something in the game,
just to get into the game,because I just, you know, kind
of get so nervous and soabsorbed with you know those
(26:59):
nerves and I've worked with witha sports psychologist over the
last few years is to kind oflike put those nerves into a
positive way and how to dealwith them, how to recognise that
if I am under pressure in agame or I start to get nervous,
I can do things where basicallyit can calm me down and it can
distract me and it can bring meback into the moment, because
(27:20):
part of the officiating isreally not thinking about the
past or not thinking about thefuture.
You've got to be in the momentor you're going to continue to
make errors.
So one of the biggest thingsfor me is off field is to kind
of like, you know, work as hardas possible to get some
techniques to really stay in themoment and just really deal
with those nerves.
Sue Anstiss (27:39):
And it's hugely pressured, isn't it?
I was thinking, even inpreparing to talk to you, but
those kind of moments whenyou've got to make really quick
or what could be controversialdecisions on the field, what
that's going to techniques thento tune out what's around you,
and also that pressure to remainfocused for such a long time,
to remain in the moment, becauseI can imagine I'd be drifting
(28:01):
away and looking at what's goingon elsewhere within the game
itself.
Sue Redfern (28:05):
Yeah, so we talk a lot in cricket most of the
formats you do have a lot oftime to overthink things, so you
do have to stay in the momentand you do have to do things
that keep you in the moment.
But, at the same time as well,you can't concentrate for eight
hours just full on concentration, so you have to learn to switch
up, switch down.
So we talk a lot, like players,about switching up and
(28:26):
switching down, when to dointense focus, when not to focus
and when to look.
And what you're looking at andyou know part of that is about
just you know, as I mentionedearlier is about being me.
It's just about bringing my ownpersonality onto the field,
because you can't fake eighthours of a personality, because
at some point there's going tobe some breaking points.
So you've got to be yourselfand you've got to behave in your
(28:49):
way to hopefully be the bestyou can be on the field.
And, yeah, eight hours is along time, concentration wise.
So, and then, obviously, if youmake errors, even if it's
perceived or known errors,what's important is you stay in
that moment and you get yourselfback to the next ball, because
that's the most important thing,what's happening right now.
So it is important that youpractice that and you have
(29:12):
techniques to do that.
Sue Anstiss (29:14):
Does it frustrate you when you're being celebrated
as the first woman forunparrying what might be lower
level men's games, say in thecounty championship, when you've
already un-pired women's WorldCups, international World Cups
and so on?
Sue Redfern (29:29):
Yeah, it's a really interesting kind of like debate
really and thought process frommy perspective.
What I've achieved in thewomen's game I'm immensely proud
of and you know the level andthe standard international
cricket I've been very fortunateto be involved in a
Commonwealth Games final andalso World Cup final.
Now is TV Empire andsemi-finals on field for
(29:53):
different tournaments.
So you know that's massive andthe crowds are massive and the
women's game is ever developingand you know, in terms of the
skill sets, in terms of thequalities and the empire, it's
exactly the same as un-piringany other game.
But you know that's a reallybig achievement which I'm
immensely proud of.
In relation to the men's game, Ithink what's really important
(30:16):
and it's understanding what myrole is in that game, because it
is something that you know thepopulation isn't used to seeing
female umpires, female officialsin those environments and is
getting better now with therugby and the football and other
sports that are moving intothis area faster sometimes than
cricket.
And what's really important is Iknow I've got a role that you
(30:38):
know I'm very fortunate to begiven this position, very
privileged, and it's reallyimportant that that visibility
is there in the men's game.
So I get that.
You know, for the largeproportion of sports fans
they've not seen this before andit's maybe a big thing.
But for me personally it isbecause it's a new environment
and it's an elite environment,just like the women's game.
(31:00):
But for me personally it hasits own different priority.
For me and it is important thatyou know, I get that there's
that awareness around, kind oflike in that visibility.
But in terms of the skill sets,you know, like I said earlier,
umpiring the women's game insome ways is harder than
umpiring in men's environments.
(31:21):
They have their own challengesin the men's game in terms of
how to umpire those environments, but for me personally, for
different reasons, they'reequally as challenging.
Sue Anstiss (31:32):
And I was going to say how lovely it was that
Billie Jean King celebrated yourgroundbreaking role in men's
county cricket in a post onTwitter last September.
So how did that feel?
I remember being thinking, ohmy God, that's fabulous.
Sue Redfern (31:43):
at the time, yeah, it's not very often so I'm
speechless, but what a legendshe is.
And for her to pick upsomething I'm doing, yeah, just
speechless, just blown away, tobe honest.
Sue Anstiss (31:56):
A couple of years ago you became a full time
umpire, so one of the 34employed by the CB, which is
fantastic news but also slightlydisappointing that you are the
only woman amongst thoseindividuals.
So I just wonder what thenumbers are generally female
umpires across cricket right nowand do you feel it is kind of
(32:17):
changing and we're moving in theright direction?
Sue Redfern (32:19):
Yeah, you know I would like to see the growth of
more female officials.
More I would like more in thegame.
I think what I've seen over thelast five or six years in
particular accelerated over thelast few years with the
introduction of the women'sprofessional game, having a
women's pathway that is tryingto support the growth of more
(32:40):
female officials.
Your likes of Anna Harriscoming through that program,
jasmine Naim and Sophie McKellenmaking a test debut as well.
You know that's great and whatI am seeing is there is
definitely a raised awarenessand there are more females
umpiring.
But we need to accelerate that.
We need more opportunities andI know that the ECB have
(33:02):
implemented a new umpiringcourse which looks at
introduction to umpiring whichhopefully is more appealing for
different sections of thecommunity who don't have as much
experience of cricket playingas maybe historically what was
probably people perceived theywould need before they took up
umpiring.
So hopefully we can make iteasier and more accessible for
(33:23):
more females and more umpires,just in general, to take up
umpiring.
But I've definitely seen theopportunities changing the
International Cricket Council aswell.
They're really positive withwomen's growth in both match
referee roles and umpiring rolesand they've been incredibly
supportive as to have the ECBwith the women's pathway, like I
(33:44):
say, over those last three orfour years.
Sue Anstiss (33:46):
It's good to see and good to hear, as you say,
similar conversations going onin rugby and cricket and other
such sports and whether there'sa need for a female-only pathway
and whether you can havesuccess in that route or
actually you can keep gettingpushed back into the men's
pathway to have success beforeyou succeed in the female sector
too.
But I guess we need more ofthose female games taking place
(34:08):
to umpire.
Sue Redfern (34:09):
Yeah, I think we absolutely the utopia of
officiating should be thatanybody, regardless of gender,
can on fire any game.
That's the end goal and I thinkthat's really important that you
know we look at that and itbecomes normal that men on fire
women, women on fire men.
It becomes normal thing.
But in the interim, you know,maybe we need to be a bit more
(34:30):
positive action to try andencourage as many females as
possible, particularly in thefemale women's environment, and
then transfer into the men'senvironment as well.
So you know, for me personally,when I was on firing in the
recreational game, it was agiven that I to progress, I had
to on fire men's cricket,whereas now that's not the case
(34:54):
and that's a really importantchange to encourage more females
to get involved in the game.
Definitely, definitely theutopia would be to have it's
regardless of the gender.
You just on fire, the levelwhich you're capable of on
firing out and the skillsets arethere that you on fire.
You've got the right skill setsfor the men's game, you've got
the right skill sets for thewomen's game and if you, if you
(35:14):
good enough, then you shouldjust do whichever game is suited
.
Sue Anstiss (35:17):
Nothing surprises me much in women's sport these
days, but I was genuinelyshocked last year when I read
that the umpires were paid threetimes more for the men's
hundred games than the women's,and the umpire three I think for
the women's final was athousand pound where the men's
was two thousand five hundred,and obviously this impacts women
far more than the men because,as you've said, we talked about
(35:39):
those contracts and more ofthose men are on the full time
contracts to what we are seeingsimilar issues I know in in
sports that will be in cricket.
So I do wonder, without puttingyou on the spot on that
specific issue, but if you werein charge of the entire program,
what changes could we be making?
Do you think they've obviouslygot a pathway, but Are there any
things you'd love to come havegiven you the opportunity?
(36:00):
What any?
Any things you particularlylike to change?
Sue Redfern (36:04):
Yeah, I think what's important is we recognize
how quickly women's cricket isgrowing and how fast pace that
growth is and what opportunitythat you know exist with the
commercial side of the women'sgame.
For me personally, like I sayyou know, there's no difference
in my opinion.
It's just my personal opinion.
You know I'm an umpire that thegame is different, slightly
(36:27):
different in terms of the skillsets needed, but it's still
elite, professional sport.
So the utopia is absolutelythere shouldn't be any
difference in that Parity andit's important that we move
towards that and the ICCrecently have announced that
that's exactly what they'regoing to do.
They're going to move towardsthat pay parity, which is
(36:47):
fantastic and it's recognizedthat.
Ultimately, you know, as anumpire I have certain roles that
I have to do and they'reexactly the same in the men's
game and in the women's game.
There's no difference there andthat's really important that we
we continue to move forward asthe games progress and the
elitism progresses within thegames itself.
Sue Anstiss (37:08):
If a young woman told you today that she'd like
to be a cricket umpire in thefuture, what sort of advice
would you be giving to her?
Sue Redfern (37:15):
Yep, probably three pieces of advice.
I might get this wrong I'm notvery good at counting, which is
not great for cricket umpiring,but my three pieces of ice would
be first of all, find yourselfpeople who will help you and
will, you know, show you how toumpire and learn from those
people.
It's also, then, about enjoyingyourself.
You know that that's thebiggest thing really is just
(37:38):
enjoy it.
Things will happen if you enjoyit and you surround yourself
with the right people and,ultimately then, if you work on
the right skills.
So you know, for me personallyas an as an official, one thing
that's an absolute given that'sexpected of you as an official
is that you know the regulationsand the laws, you know their
things that you can do, whicharen't relevant on the on field
(38:00):
at the time, you can do in thewinter and you can work towards
in the winter.
So you know if you work hardand study and train and
understand your field craft, ifyou enjoy it and if you also
learn from others.
Because ultimately, as acricket umpire, I've not I've
not introduced anythingdifferent to what previous
(38:20):
umpires have done.
I've just used what previousumpires of use, what are right
for me and my style.
So that's all through learningfrom my colleagues.
Sue Anstiss (38:30):
Lovely and finally, why your goals and aspirations
looking ahead, is there stillmuch more that you want to go on
to achieve in your career as anumpire?
Sue Redfern (38:40):
Yeah, absolutely I want to.
Being full time now as aprofessional umpire gives me the
opportunity to be the bestversion of me I can be.
I can really focus my time oneither recovering, resting or
preparing to be a better umpire.
So, you know, for me,absolutely my aspiration is to
(39:02):
consolidate what, what I'veachieved so far, to recognize
and you know I should reallycelebrate what I've achieved but
, you know, to consolidate thatand to keep performing in those
environments but ultimately tobe given the opportunity to, to
work in new environments.
So in new, you know, obviouslyin different pathways and in
higher level matches in terms ofthe men's game, obviously the
(39:24):
women's game.
It's consolidation at thehighest level and making sure I
can be the best version of me Ican be.
So I'm always going to haveaspirations.
For me personally, I want toplay and officiate multi-day
cricket more.
For me, that's my most likedversion of cricket.
I love test match cricket, Ilove multi-day cricket.
(39:45):
It's just a different dynamic.
I'm very traditional in thatoutlook.
So, yeah, for me, that's myaspiration is to do that
consolidation, but that learningin new environments as well.
Sue Anstiss (40:02):
I followed Sue's career for a long time.
What a pleasure it was tofinally speak to her in person.
If you enjoyed the podcast,there are over 160 episodes
featuring trailblazing women insport and they're all free to
listen to on most podcastplatforms or on our website at
fearless women.
Dot co dot UK.
Previous cricketing guestsinclude Claire Connor and Ebony
(40:25):
Rainford Brent.
The whole of my book game on theunstoppable rise of women's
sport is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Every episode of series 13 isme reading a chapter of the book
.
The website is also where youcan find out more about the
women's sport collective, whichis our free, inclusive community
(40:47):
for all women working in sport.
We now have over six and a halfthousand members from 89
countries who meet online and inperson events and benefit from
a very engaged LinkedIn group,regular newsletters, regional
hubs and opportunities to attendkey industry events.
(41:08):
Thank you once again to sportEngland, who back the game
changes through a nationallottery award, and to Sam Walker
at what goes on media, who doessuch a great job as our
executive producer.
Thank you also to my brilliantcolleague at fearless women,
kate Cannon.
Do follow us so you don't missout on future episodes and if
(41:32):
you have a moment to leave alovely five star rating or
review, that would be great, asit really does help us to reach
new audiences.
Come and say hello on socialmedia, where you'll find me on
LinkedIn, instagram and Twitter.
At Sue and Stis, the gamechanges.
Fearless women in sport.
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