July 8, 2024 • 43 mins
What drives one of Britain's top rally drivers to push the limits on and off the track?
In today's episode of The Game Changers we hear from Catie Munnings one of Britain’s most successful racing talents, a rally driver, Red Bull sponsored athlete and TV presenter who now competes in Extreme E - a radical, all electric off-road racing series in the most remote corners of the planet impacted by climate change.
Catie she shares her remarkable journey from sporty teenager to a trailblazing figure in motorsport, along with her unique, motorsport-centric upbringing that set the stage for her rapid ascent in rally racing. From perfecting handbrake turns at just 13 to extraordinary achievements in rally driving and Extreme E racing, Catie’s story is a testament to passion and perseverance.
Catie shares the pivotal role her family has played in her career and the mental toughness required to excel in rally driving's high-stakes environment. We hear about the physical demands rally driving imposes and how motorsport legend Michèle Mouton provided inspired Catie as a young driver.
Catie and I explore the broader landscape for women across motorsport, discussing initiatives that are levelling the playing field, and Catie provides an insider's perspective on E Extreme’s commitment to gender equality, with mixed-gender teams racing in remote, environmentally affected locations.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sue Anstiss (00:02):
Hello and welcome to the Game Changers.
I'm Sue Anstiss, and this isthe podcast where you'll hear
from trailblazing women in sportwho are knocking down barriers
and challenging the status quofor women and girls everywhere.
What can we learn from theirjourneys as we explore key
issues around equality in sportand beyond?
I'd like to start with a bigthank you to our partner, sport
(00:25):
England, who support the gamechangers through a national
lottery award.
My guest today is one ofBritain's most successful racing
talents rally driver and RedBull sponsored Catie, Munnings.
Catie shot to fame in 2016after she became the first
(00:45):
Briton to win a European rallytitle for 49 years after winning
the FIA European RallyChampionships ladies trophy.
In addition to her racingexploits, Catie launched a
successful TV career as the hostof a CBB show, Catie's Amazing
Machines, which introduced youngchildren to some of the biggest
and fastest machines in theworld.
(01:06):
From traditional rally driving,Catie's moved on to compete in
an exciting new format Extreme E, a radical all-electric
off-road racing series in themost remote corners of the
planet impacted by climatechange.
Eight teams consisting of onemale and one female driver
racing to highlight globalissues and test new emerging .
(01:28):
C atie is widely regarded as oneof the fastest drivers in
Xtreme E.
In fact, her recent performancein Saudi Arabia saw her amongst
the quickest drivers overall.
Earlier this year, Catie alsobecame the first person to have
driven a Formula E and Extreme Ecar, as well as pilot an E-race
boat All championships underthe electric 360 umbrella.
(01:51):
So, Catie, we're obviouslygoing to talk a lot about
driving in a moment, but can westart with other sports?
I believe you were very good atathletics growing up, so
pentathlon and netball, so howwere those sports a part of your
life?
Catie Munnings (02:05):
Oh, I absolutely loved them.
I was just really competitiveas a personality.
You know anything.
I was used to be awful well, itstill is to play board games
with me.
But yeah, when I was growing up, I think sport at school was
one of my favourite things.
I was really into netball.
I think we came second innational champs when I was at
school.
So that was my first kind oftaste of strategy.
And when I was at school, sothat was my first kind of taste
(02:25):
of strategy and working towardsa bigger kind of championship
rather than just low level kindof sports.
That really gave me a taste forcompetition and for progress.
And then, when I was a bit older, I really got into athletics.
That was about the time whenJessica Ennis was doing the
London 2012 Olympics and she waslike my biggest idol when I was
growing up.
So I started doing thepentathlon, um, and I had a
(02:46):
coach.
And then, um, yeah, I rememberactually I didn't get a ticket
to go to the olympics but, um, Imanaged to sneak into the
olympic stadium.
I managed to get like a ticketfor handball and my sister was
in there with someone else, butthey weren't really interested
in the olympics, so they cameout and then I used their ticket
to go and I think crossing theline of the 200 or something
like that, and you know Iremember that moment forever.
Oh wow, that's amazing.
Sue Anstiss (03:07):
Amazing to hear.
And what position do you playin netball?
I always like to get thosenetball questions in oh, it's
goal shooter.
Oh, good, good, yeah.
And it was your home life andyour family life that really
initiated that love of driving.
So can you tell us how that allbegan?
Yeah, I had.
Catie Munnings (03:23):
To me it was quite normal as an upbringing,
but it definitely wasn't normallooking back on it now.
My parents ran like amotorsport entertainment company
so we used to have stag do's atthe house every Saturday and
they had some fields and a bitof woodland and so stuff like
quad biking and pilots, buggies,archery, all of that stuff
would be going on and I'd jumpon quad bikes and help.
My dad set up the fields at 6amevery Saturday morning when I
(03:46):
was probably about 10 until Iwas about 18.
So I just was always drivingthings and old cars in the
fields and my dad used to be arally driver as well, so he was
an instructor at some rallyschools, so I'd go to work with
him and sit in the passengerside of his car.
So yeah, it was veryunconventional but it was
completely normal to me and itwas never something that I
considered, you know, a careerin or thought that there would
(04:07):
be any opportunities.
It was just purely a completelove for it, you know.
Sue Anstiss (04:10):
I remember you did your first handbrake turn at
just 13.
So how did you then progressfrom having fun on quad bikes
and old cars and your family'sfarm to actually racing?
What was that transition?
Catie Munnings (04:22):
Well, when I was , I think, 14, I started
competing, so I was driving from, you know, as soon as I could
reach the pedals on my dad's lap, basically.
But, um, when I was 14, in ourlocal airfield the local motor
club ran grass auto testing,which is is perfect for anyone
wanting to get into motorsport,because it's kind of car control
skills, but a very grassrootslevel.
So I think you paid five poundsevery other week and you could
(04:43):
take any car, so.
So people would get cars fromscrapyards or whatever and it
could be a road car and you justgo to your local motor club.
For us it was at the airfieldand it was on grass.
Someone sets up a few differentslalom courses with poles and
then, yeah, it's stuff likereverse flicks, all the kind of
stunts you see in movies, sohandbrake town, but they run a
junior level.
So that was quite competitiveand I started doing that when I
(05:04):
was 14 and it was mainly becausewhere we lived was very remote
and the lanes used to get reallyicy and my dad was thinking
about us driving ourselves toschool when we turned 17 and he
basically said that he didn'twant us under steering into a
ditch because we didn't know howto handle it.
So that was why he wanted us toget a bit of car knowledge
behind our backs.
And yeah, I just I fell in lovewith that.
I was massively competitiveperson and my sister was doing
(05:27):
it at the same time.
It was really funny becauseshe's not competitive at all,
but she was really good at itand I always wonder what she
would have done if she'd havekept going in sport as well.
Sue Anstiss (05:34):
And when did you actually get behind the steering
wheel of a rally car itself?
Catie Munnings (05:39):
Well, that was quite a unique opportunity
because I'd been competing ingrass water testing for quite a
while and then we werespectating on a round of the
European Rally Championship inBelgium and I, just by chance,
we got speaking to some of theorganisers who were talking
about a lack of women in sportand especially in rally, and
they were trying to open up moredoors, and they said that there
was a kind of rookie test goingon with Peugeot later in the
(06:01):
year and I managed to get aninvite to it.
But I'd never driven a rallycar before and I turned up to
the test and it was like therewas the current European
champions there, the Frenchchampions, and it was in Mont
Blanc.
So it was a really steepmountainside, tiny, narrow
gravel track and it was bearingin mind I'm 17 at the time, so
I'm only just driving on theroad and this car was left-hand
drives, which already feelsreally alien.
It was a sequential gearbox andyou know it was a proper kind
(06:24):
of rally car that they run inthe junior level of the world
championship, and I rememberjust being like I don't even
know if I have got the clutchcontrol to pull away in this and
I ended up sitting next to theFrench champion at the time and
he was giving me some lessonsand I sat next to him while he
was driving me and I wasabsolutely blown away with what
he was doing.
And then he said, right, yourturn.
And I did a couple of laps onthe road and I was blown away
(06:45):
and he said, okay, that was inroad mode, we put it in rally
mode now.
I wasn't even in the full power.
So I just remember that momentit was.
It was I couldn't imaginemyself driving like how he was
driving, and it was thatchallenge of wondering if I
could do that.
That was what really gave methe bug, I think, because I was
so impressed with I just thoughtwe were crashing all the time
(07:05):
when I sat next to him.
So for me it was like justwanting to know if I could hone
my skills to be able to do that.
So I managed then to stay withPeugeot and get a bit of support
from Peugeot UK and some localsponsors.
I never had the budget to do itproperly, though, to be honest
with you, I'd always sort oftake the tires off my teammate's
car that were going in the binfor him.
They'd go on my car as new whenI was doing the championship.
(07:25):
But it was just about gettingthe experience for me and, yeah,
I then went into the EuropeanChampionship for about four
years, I think, with Persia.
Sue Anstiss (07:32):
That's amazing, isn't it?
And was it scary when you saythat, how you went up that next
into the next gears, as it were?
Were you scared the first timeyou were there?
Catie Munnings (07:44):
time you were there.
Was it just exhilaration?
Can you remember how you felt?
Yeah, and I think it was.
I think it was that naivety.
You know, I was 17.
I didn't really know the fearkind of side of stuff, so I
think for me it was probably abit of ignorance on what could
go wrong, but I was more justimpressed rather than I and I
had some massive crashes when Iwas starting out.
Everyone does in rally, you know, because you're learning and
it's not like a sport where youmake a mistake and there's a bit
of, you know, runoff room orwiggle weight.
(08:05):
You know, as you're learning,that the consequences are
massive in rally you'recompeting on such narrow roads
and I've hit and crashed intothe side of houses, I've hit
trees.
I've hit, you know, I took outan electricity pylon.
Um, I had some massive crashesin my early days but I never
felt fear with it.
I don't know why.
I think it's.
I think if I was a co-driver Iwould have done, but I think the
fact that I had the steeringwheel and the pedals in my
(08:26):
control, I always felt like Iwas in control, if you know what
I mean.
So I never thought I'd driveout of my limits, which
obviously I did all the time,because the red mist comes down
and you do, but it was neversomething that really helped me
back.
I don't think, and I love the.
It's just a fabulous story,isn't it For someone that is
this amazing driver and actuallyI think I told everyone for
(08:48):
about five years I did passfirst time because I'm so sorry
I hadn't.
Yeah, I think what actuallyhappened was I was sat with the
driving instructor.
He said, no, obviously you candrive, but I do think you did
pull out on a bus at theroundabout and I was like, well,
he didn't hit the bus, he wasgoing slowly.
(09:09):
I pulled out.
You know, to me it wasperfectly fine.
And he said look, I'm gonnahave to fail you, but obviously
I can tell you, but you candrive, but that is a big no-no
on my checklist.
So I had to go back and do itagain, but I was very nervous
doing that.
I think it is actually verystressful.
It's a driving test absolutely.
Sue Anstiss (09:18):
it's good to hear and it's good to share with
other young people that mightnot be passing too.
As I said in the introduction,you went on to win a rally
championship at just 19.
And you also placed fourth, Ithink, overall for men and women
.
The following year andthroughout your career, it seems
that you always talked aboutthis most promising young talent
from the UK, so did that bringadded pressure for you to
(09:40):
perform?
Do you think there's morepeople looking at you in that
way?
Catie Munnings (09:43):
I think, when I started I, we decided to go
straight into the European RallyChampionship because cost-wise,
compared to the BritishChampionship, it was pretty
similar but the exposure was somuch bigger in Europe.
Obviously I think the serieswas covered by Eurosport and I
saw it as an opportunity tocompete against the best in
Europe, you know, because it's ahigher standard.
So obviously I'm a beginner butI thought I would learn faster
against against the top drivers,which obviously came'm a
(10:03):
beginner but I thought I wouldlearn faster against the top
drivers, which obviously camewith a lot more pressure,
because I think I had a lot moreeyes on it.
You know, as a young girl thatnever done anything before going
straight into the EuropeanChampionship and I think the
first year, it was veryeye-opening to me to gain a
thick skin, you know, when youread the comments online.
And the difficulty was I wasone of the only females really
there was a few of us but,especially with no experience, I
(10:24):
was one of the only ones thathad gone straight into the
European Championship and allthe guys I guess because there
was more guys, there wasn't somany eyes on the guys that were
at the beginning that arelearning, whereas I feel like
when I came in I didn't reallyhave the space to learn and have
the beginner stage becausepeople were expecting to see
results instantly.
So that was quite you know.
(10:46):
It's important for me then tohave a lot of family support and
and my kind of squad around me.
That kept me positive, becauseI think the first year was quite
tough with that initiation.
And then when I learned to just, you know, feed back off my
co-driver and the people aroundme and my team and and judge my
progress off that rather thanwhat other people are saying I
kind of grew quite thick skin toit and wasn't bothered by it
anymore.
But I remember at the beginningit was a massive shock to me
(11:07):
because I was like no, I haven'tdone anything.
How can people expect me to begoing in and being the fastest
here?
But I think there wasdefinitely more eyes on because
I was one of the only femalesdoing it.
Sue Anstiss (11:17):
And you mentioned your family support there.
So how important have they been, have they been?
And I love on your Instagram,like your sister and your it's
almost like that people with youin the different venues and
things.
How important has that been tohave that support around you.
What part have they played.
Catie Munnings (11:31):
It's been massive for me.
I think I've always been in akind of family business, if you
know what I mean.
When I was helping my parentswith their company, it was
always very much a family affair, and I think when I started in
motorsport it was as well.
My mum and dad would come withme.
You know we'd take the trailerwith the rally car when I was
starting and it would be verymuch a joint effort and I
wouldn't have been able to evenstart without them.
(11:53):
So I really wanted to continuethat when I moved into different
championships as well.
So I think my dad's pretty muchbeen to all of my races that
I've ever done in differentdisciplines, and you know he
started off as a driver coach.
We now have arguments as to whois the coach and who's being
taught, but and yeah, he is amassive support to me and I
(12:14):
really value that.
I think, especially when you'retraveling in different
countries and touch wood,nothing goes wrong, but when it
does, you know, motorsport is adangerous sport, so it's really
important, I think, to have akind of support unit around you
as well that can be there andhelp you pick up the pieces.
Sue Anstiss (12:26):
And what is it that makes it a great rally driver?
So how much is it about yourskill as a driver which clearly
have versus physical fitness,and then the mental skills, the
ability to stay calm and makethose decisions under kind of
pressured moments?
Catie Munnings (12:40):
I think a lot of it is the mental side.
I I think that we're racing,especially with Extreme E we're
racing in locations that haven'tbeen raced before.
So we'll turn up to the middleof the Saudi Arabian desert and
it's a track that hasn't reallybeen tested.
It's not like circuit racing.
You know where they have a fullrunoff area and they've got all
of the different.
You know safety measures inplace.
(13:00):
Obviously we do in our own way,but it's very much more than to
drive a judgment.
You know massive jumps off sanddunes and over rock crawls in
Greenland and when you're goinginto practice for the first time
, often I sit on the start linethinking I have no idea how I'm
going to get around the coursein one piece.
I have no idea what speed totake that jump, I have no idea
how to get over those rocks andit's something that really
(13:22):
requires quite a lot of mentalstrength, I think, and obviously
a support unit around you.
I'm really good friends with myteammates, so we talk about
everything and we really go intoit together and I think that
makes a big difference to me.
But I think the mental side ofthat is really important and I
think also the resilience if youhave a crash.
But then you've got to be backon pace the next day and it's
very hard to do that.
I think there and it's very hardto do that, I think there's a
(13:43):
number of things that come intoit.
Obviously it's massivelyexpensive.
So if you're in motorsport whenI was starting out, obviously
finding my own sponsorship, mostof the time I'd be driving with
the thought that I can't make amistake because I can't afford
to pay the insurance payout or Iwon't be at the next race.
And nowadays, obviously withracing at a higher level, it is
very expensive.
So every time you have a crashit is mind-blowing numbers.
(14:04):
And then you've got to kind ofseparate that from your
performance.
Because if you go out the nextday thinking about that or have
the fear in your mind ofcrashing, then you're, you know,
way back at the end at the backof the pack.
So you have to have um, one ofthe rally drivers.
After I had a big crash when Iwas younger, he told me to have
a goldfish memory.
So that always um, kind of issomething that I try to take
with me if I've had a bad day ina rally or race.
(14:26):
Then to come back the next dayand and you have to kind of just
shut it off completely, and Ithink that that's the hardest,
one of the hardest thingsmentally, that it takes some
time to get your head around.
Um, the physical side is alsoquite a lot.
It's not the same as when youthink of racing like formula one
, because we're in an enclosedcockpit, so we don't have the
same sort of G-forces that theyhave.
(14:46):
But we have our own problems,as it were.
We've got massive jumps,massive impacts to take,
especially our backs.
We have to do a lot of trainingaround our posture to make sure
that we're strong enough totake it and also to prevent
injury.
But also in terms of theconcentration side, we have to
be very fit to be able to keepthat going at a level where
(15:06):
we're competing in cockpits thatare 60 degrees and um, with,
you know, long days in the sun,and then we've got to have the
stamina to be sharp when we needto be and one of my favorite
sports documentaries from recentyears is queen of speed, okay,
the extraordinary story ofmichelle mutant, and I've just
blown away by all she achievedand despite the sexism in the
(15:26):
sport at the time, the lovelyarchive footage, and it is
extraordinary.
Sue Anstiss (15:30):
So can you tell us a little bit more about, I guess
, her and her story and whetherthat has inspired you personally
, seeing a woman that had suchsuccess?
Catie Munnings (15:38):
definitely, um, and she was.
When I was competing in theEuropean Championship she was
the safety delegate, so she'd begoing around in the start and
she'd be telling all in the carat the start and she'd be
telling all the fans they'restanding in dangerous places and
yeah, she's a real powerhouse.
Um, she definitely carved theway, I think, for women in
off-road motorsport and I thinkto some extent as well on track,
because there were so few womenthat were competing at the top
(16:00):
level.
So to have any kind of rolemodel in motorsport was huge and
to see what she did in thosecars in that era, with the
conditions that they raced in,is unbelievable and I love that.
She always just said that sheloved driving.
For her it wasn't necessarilyabout the competition, but she
just loved the feeling ofdriving and improving and that's
something that I can completelyrelate to, because there's so
much that's out of our control,you know, with our competitors
(16:22):
and the development, the speedof others, but if you keep that,
pure enjoyment I think.
But she really had the wholeway through her career.
That's what kind of powers youthrough.
So, yeah, I was, I was verystarstruck when I first met her,
but she was definitely, I think, the biggest inspiration that I
had when I was growing up inmotorsport.
Sue Anstiss (16:37):
I love it.
She's very cool, so I just kindof like her attitude very blase
and, yeah, fantastic.
You've been racing in Xtreme Efor the Andretti team since the
series began in 2021, alongsideSwedish rally driver Timmy
Hansen.
So for those that don'tnecessarily know, can you share
a little bit more about Xtreme Eand its ambitions?
Catie Munnings (17:01):
Yeah, absolutely so.
When I first heard about thechampionship it sounded like
something from a movie.
I never thought it would takeoff.
To be honest with you, it wasin lockdown that I heard about
it.
So I'm sort of sat at home andI got a call and they said we're
going to be creating anelectric off-road motorsport
championship where we're goingto race in places that are
hardly touched by humanity buthave had massive effects of
climate change.
So places like the Greenlandice sheet.
(17:21):
We've raced Saudi Arabian desert, some of the beaches in Senegal
, so it's basically racing withthe purpose of raising awareness
about each location that we goto.
So we have an amazingscientific committee.
It's made up some by some ofthe the professors from Oxford
and Cambridge and some of thetop marine biologists in the
world, and we go to locationsthat have been affected by
(17:42):
climate change and I think theorganizers take on boards from
the scientists some of theissues that the areas are facing
and then we create legacyprograms.
So it's not a normal race weekfor us.
We'll go a week before and twoor three days we'll probably
spend with the scientists andlocal charities, organizations,
places that are giving back, Iguess, and some of the
sponsorship from thechampionship then goes into
(18:04):
those programs and has kind oflong lasting, you know,
multi-year programs.
So it was really nice for me tosee that that actually happened
when I first started racing,because it was quite a selfish
sport before then.
You know, it was something thatI did just for myself but
didn't necessarily feel like itwas giving that much back.
And then suddenly we're racingin places where it's changing
the landscape of the beaches inSaudi Arabia for the Red Sea
(18:26):
Turf population and planting amillion mangroves off the coast
of Senegal, in Africa.
And when you go to those placesand then you speak to the local
people and you hear thedifferences actually making to
their livelihoods, you know interms of income, in terms of
better living conditions, andyou hear, for the scientists as
well, how important it is tohave a broader voice, because
they say they publish researchpapers and it only gets however
(18:49):
many views.
And then suddenly, when it'sput into the voice that sport
has on itv or wherever it'splayed, people that were not
looking for that informationsuddenly learn a lot as well as
watching the motorsport.
So it was the perfectcombination really, um, for
something different, and I thinkthat it had to be really high
level racing in order to keepthe fans and have that
attraction and the viewers inthe first place.
(19:10):
But when I switch to thescientists and find out the
difference that it's actuallymaking for them and their
research papers and opening updoors for them, it really, you
know, you feel like you'reactually achieving something
pretty big there that'sfantastic, isn't it a real
win-win?
Sue Anstiss (19:22):
and how different is it for you as a driver of the
extreme the electric car versusa traditional combustion engine
of a rally car?
What's the difference like as adriver?
Catie Munnings (19:33):
it's not as much as I thought it would be.
So when I first saw the cars inreal life, I'd actually already
signed with Andretti and wewent to our first test and I
remember seeing how big it looksin the garage and I thought how
am I going to drive that?
You know it looks like a tank,absolutely massive.
But when you start to drive itit felt very similar to a rally
car that I've driven beforequite heavy, so you obviously
(19:56):
have to bear that in mind.
It's quite top heavy so theyhave a tendency to tip and roll.
So a lot of the driving stylewas around trying to set it up,
to keep it planted so that youdon't have the the kind of that
roll rate that you have um inoff-road conditions.
You know, if you catch a rut oran angle at a wrong um
direction then it's very easy toflip and I think you probably
have seen some of the bigcrashes we've had in the past.
So for us it was also from theelectric side.
(20:19):
It was obviously an instanttorque.
It was very fast off the offthe start line.
There's no gears, so it's kindof easier to drive in a way,
because we have less to do.
We don't have a clutch, wedon't have gears to worry about,
the power's there instantlywhere we want it.
But we had to readjust how wefeel the car.
I think because you know in thepast, when you lock wheels,
when you're braking hard is youcan hear it because there's
(20:40):
something going on in thegearbox and you get different
sensations, whereas now, withthe powertrain that we had, you
had to feel a lot more throughthe seat because some of those
tools and sensors had kind ofgone away when we switched to
electric.
So after after a couple ofraces, I think you're up to.
But I think for anyone cominginto a new car like that,
there's obviously an adjustmentperiod.
And yeah it was.
(21:00):
But for the first season nobodyknew what was going to happen.
You know we were racing inplaces with big drops, with
water splashes, with all of thisdifferent stuff and we were
testing this brand newtechnology.
Obviously the heat as well.
We're trying to keep thebatteries cool between sessions.
So we had different coolingtechniques and we have to adjust
the power levels based on howmuch we thought the battery
would degrade during the day.
(21:22):
So there was a lot from anengineering side that went into
the first seasons and developingthat with the championship.
But, yeah, it's very exciting.
I think it's now up to a levelwhich is, you know, it's
incredibly competitive acrossthe paddock now and it's
increased so much over the lastfew years, which I think is
amazing for women in motorsport,because when we first started
out and it still is that eachteam has a male and a female
(21:42):
driver in the team.
But obviously when the teamswere selecting their drivers,
it's very easy to find eightreally high level male drivers
in the world because there'sbeen so many more men in
motorsport in the past.
So we had Sebastian Loeb, who'showever many time world rally
champion Jenson Button was onthe grid, and then suddenly they
had to find eight female ornine female drivers and there
(22:04):
was women that hadn't beencompeting for a few years that
they brought back, and half ofthe grid I don't think would
have been competing that year ifthey didn't have that
opportunity.
So it was a very steep learningcurve, I think, for us, because
we hadn't had the amount ofexposure and testing time and
everything else that these guyshave had in their professional
careers, and so actually itbecame the difference in the
(22:26):
results was more down to thefemales than the males, and a
lot of the development then waspushed into making the females
fast, because if you had a quickgirl then you know you're doing
really, really well, becauseall the guys were already on a
very similar level.
So it was really interesting.
Actually they did a study toshow the progress of the females
from the first season to nowand I think it's it's almost
flipped.
I think there's some from ourlast race in Saudi Arabia.
(22:47):
We kind of do off this sectorin in the race course, where we
have a very special super sectorwhere we get extra championship
points for being the fastest,and I think now some of the
females are actually faster thanmales for the first time.
So it's really yeah.
In the last few years it'sincreased massively and that's
literally just down to havingthe same access to engineers, to
testing, to the racingconditions, all of the things
(23:10):
that you think might be takenfor granted.
But actually in motorsport,where it's so expensive to do
any testing and progress and andtraining as you're coming up
through the rankings isdefinitely something that you
know is not equal across thepaddock.
So to have that opportunity nowon a professional level has
really made a difference it isfantastic to see, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss (23:28):
and I it does feel like, as I watch from the
outside, almost that approach togender equality is really at
the core of everything.
And we see some sports, don'twe, where they put a woman or
two women in a team, or, butactually because it is
absolutely equal male, female,that that feels so very
different.
And then I think that researchyou said I was reading into it
but there's a like a 26%improvement, I think, in women's
(23:50):
performance from that firstseries to now because, as you
said, they have had that sameopportunity, same seat time,
access to engineers.
So do you think would that bethe same in other motorsports if
women had that same opportunityaccess?
Is it that clearly feels thatthat's what's being demonstrated
here?
Catie Munnings (24:07):
I definitely think so and I think it's.
It's something where I'mmassively for females and males
being able to compete next toeach other in motorsport,
especially in off-road.
Where we're talking about thephysical side is really it's not
that hard to drive the cars.
As long as your power steeringis working and everything, then
it's not a massive physicalelement.
It's more an experience level.
(24:27):
It's a mental game of judgingthe speed and having that edge,
but it's definitely notsomething where I get out of the
car and feel like I've had amassive workout and I'm
suffering compared to myteammate.
I think the women aredefinitely capable of it and I'm
massively for keeping it thatway, that we compete against the
men.
I've always done it the wholeway.
Even when I was in the EuropeanChampionship and there was
(24:48):
ladies' trophies, I'd alwayswanted to be compared to the
fastest driver, whether that isa male or a female, because I
never saw a reason of why Icouldn't be there.
And I think in other forms ofmotorsport as well, that's
really starting to come through,and I think opportunities where
yes, okay, there's things likethe F1 Academy where there's
seats for females, and I thinkthere's a big argument for if
(25:09):
that championship wasn't there,then those females might not
have the support to be racing atall.
So, yes, we want to give themthe support to get them to a
level so that hopefully thenthey can go back into mixed
motorsport at the top level.
But I'd really love to see,when that happens, how far women
can go, because I think thatthese opportunities in the past
there has been someopportunities, but there's never
(25:30):
been okay.
Here's a drive for a reallyfast female.
We've got everything all thetesting you need, all the budget
, you need everything that youneed that's going to be the same
as the guy that's doing it thebest in motorsport.
I don't think there's ever beensomething like that and it's not
necessarily a gender thing.
I think it's because you've gotto look right back to grassroots
levels.
I mean, I worked with SusieWolfe when she started her there
(25:51):
To Be Different campaign onthis and then now with girls on
track, and we used to go aroundto schools and we'd say put your
hands up if you want to be aracing driver, and most of them
would say what?
I didn't think you could be,because when I watch Formula One
, it's only men.
So when you're limiting it fromthat early on.
I think that you don't haveenough girls coming into karting
or from the engineering side,whatever it might be in
motorsport, and then of course,you know, not all the guys that
(26:13):
start end up filtering throughto the top.
So of course, if you've gotfewer levels of females, it's
even harder to make it to thetop.
So I think it has to reallystart from quite a low level and
it will take a long time tofilter through all the way up to
the top, to have the women riseto the top of Formula One as
well.
Sue Anstiss (26:28):
Can you imagine if you had an F1, every team had to
have a male and female driver?
How extraordinary that would be?
There you are, I've solved it.
There you go.
We'll just make that happenExactly.
We are seeing much more.
I mean, you mentioned the F1Academy and obviously Girls on
Track, and those initiatives aremore than equal, evolving as an
entity as well.
So these new initiatives, itfeels like people are suddenly
(26:51):
waking up to the disparitythat's there, although obviously
we have been talking about itfor years and years.
So do you feel like in the lastfew years there is this big
shift and if so why do you feelnow that we're talking about it
more definitely?
Catie Munnings (27:05):
there has been.
I think it's an amazing time tobe a female in motorsport,
especially for the nextgeneration that are coming in.
You know the opportunities withthe F1 academy and and brands
like Charlotte Tilbury andpeople like that coming on board
.
I remember when I first startedin rally and I tried to get
female brand sponsorship.
It was so hard because you'dspeak to them and they'd say,
yeah, but there's no femalefollowing in motorsports.
So who are we selling to?
And I kind of saw it as theopposite.
(27:26):
I was thinking this is a realopportunity, yeah, and now it
seems to be that it's comearound that way.
So I think that the future islooking really bright.
But I think, from a championshipside and what Extreme E did was
very clever, because it has tobe from a sporting side that you
have to have an incentive tohave a female in the team,
because they're, all you know,massive companies.
You know, when you look atFormula One, they're not just
(27:46):
there to run around, they wantto win.
And so I think, with Extreme Eputting it so that there was no
male result and there was nofemale result.
It completely took out theelement of having a female in
the team just for the media andto say, oh, you know, I'm a
woman in motorsport, I'll do allthe media interviews and my
teammate can do all the hot lap.
It suddenly became actually wereally need to make these
females fast, because then wecan win races.
(28:07):
So I think they were veryclever the way that they did it.
And I actually speak todifferent championships now in
off-road that are wanting tohave more women involved and
saying how do we do it?
How do we incentivize teams tohave women?
And I'm thinking well, you'vegot to.
You know you've got to fit itinto the sporting program
somehow as a team, becauseotherwise I think you know it
will just happen too slowly.
You've got to put pressure onthem to to make a change that
(28:29):
will benefit their results.
Sue Anstiss (28:31):
It's a fantastic example, isn't it?
For other, for othermotorsports, for other sports
too, of changing the ecosystemof the sport itself to truly
make it equal, rather thanrelying on people to do what
they might know to be right.
But over time, as you say, itwill just take too long to
change.
Catie Munnings (28:46):
And the nice thing about it is I never just
want to be a token female in arace.
What I actually love and Ithink it's proven since the last
kind of four years is that thefemales are there because
they're now the top drivers.
You know there's femaleswinning races outright over the
men that have got so much moreexperience in motorsport.
But because we've all got thesame experience in this car and
(29:07):
on this surface it highlightsthem as profiles.
And now there's actually beenother opportunities and other
championships that have openedup to the women that are at the
top of their game because theysee actually, no, that's a
really fast driver.
So there's been differentdrives open up for for some of
us in in other areas that haveno incentives for females in
motorsport, but because we'vebeen recognized and our kind of
(29:28):
performances have beenhighlighted on a big stage
against, you know, top driversin the world and I mentioned in
the introduction that you'vealso become the first person to
drive uh E and Extreme E andPilot and E1 race boats.
Sue Anstiss (29:39):
So once you're a brilliant driver, what is that
crossover for drivers indifferent formats?
Is it not just jumping a boatand that's easy, but obviously
you've got that skill set andthat ability to drive.
Catie Munnings (29:52):
It is, and I think it's, as I said earlier,
quite a mental thing when you,when you know how to get the
edge out of a vehicle and amachine and you know what what
takes, what it takes to becompetitive at a high level in
one discipline.
It's actually very similar indifferent disciplines, although
I will say I've literally justcome off the back of an e1 race
this weekend in a boat.
We were in porto benudes and itwas so rough.
So me and timmy are actuallyteammates in e1 as well.
(30:14):
It was really funny becausewhen the the program came about,
we had to do some training on alake and and I at first we were
offered it because it was kindof the same team, um as extreme
e, that were running thechampionship and they said does
anyone want to be a pilot inthis series?
And I said well, no, becauseI'm not a powerboat racer.
It'll be really embarrassing.
I'll just run around at theback.
I don't know what I'm doing.
But Timmy said I'll come andhave a go um, and when he came
(30:36):
back from his training he saidCatie, you've got to go and do
it.
It's so similar.
As soon as you can feel thewater and the grip of the water,
it's the same.
We've got a steering wheel,we've got a throttle pedal.
He said then you're racing.
And I thought, okay, I'll goand give it a go and it's all,
and the waves and everythinglike that, because it's
definitely not that similar.
(30:57):
So, yeah, it's a new challengefor us at the minute to be
racing on water, but I thinkit's.
I do genuinely believe thatmotorsport is so advanced the
way that we study data, the waythat we analyze our performance
together and the stuff that wesay with the engineers is so
transferable into a differentdiscipline that we come at it
with a really analytical eye, Ithink, compared to probably most
powerboat racing championships,where it's a lot more on
(31:20):
feeling.
So it's really interesting tonow combine those two worlds and
work with them and learn theirexperience of the water, because
we're bringing tools and kindof data that they don't normally
use in in the water world andthey're giving us a lot more
insight into how to read thewaves and how to actually react
to them.
So that's a new challenge forme at the minute, but it's
definitely something where Ithink if I just looked at it on
(31:41):
paper, I would never think I wasqualified to do it.
And here we are.
We're on the back of twopodiums against some of the best
powerboat races in the world,so I think it's definitely
achievable if you put yourselfout there no-transcript very
(32:06):
different really.
It's kind of, I guess, likesaying to like a dressage rider,
would you go and do the grandnational, if you know what I
mean.
I think on paper, yes, theyprobably look the same, but when
you get into motorsport yourealize that if you want to have
done formula one, you've got tobe karting from when you're
eight years old and going upthrough the ranks.
I've probably been karting fourtimes in my life, so I think
I'm the best qualified.
There's some amazing girls thatare coming up through the ranks
(32:29):
that will have a go at that,but for me it's not something.
I mean, I've done track daysand with cars and I've been on
circuits.
For me it's not where my passionis, because I just love.
I love the feeling of beingoff-road and having the
challenges that we have withjumps, with the conditions
changing all the time, slidingon gravel, those sorts of things
.
I don't think you get fromcircuit racing.
(32:49):
It's a lot more down to the youknow, perfect laps, every
single lap, it's all exactly thesame.
Conditions are the same and Ithink it's a lot more about the
technical kind of data side withyour engineers, which we still
have a lot in off-road.
But in off-road, I think it's alot more spontaneous and it's a
lot more relying on yourinstincts as a driver, which is
where my sort of passion is.
Sue Anstiss (33:08):
So so yeah, maybe in another lifetime, but I think
for now no, and motorsport issuch an expensive sport to be
involved in as well, andespecially in that Formula One.
There's that kind of idea thatmoney buys talent and I, you
know, I'm a Drive to Survive fan.
So the kind of Lawrence Strollstory of a son coming through
(33:28):
because his dad bought the team.
So how much do you feel that isthat?
Is that the case acrossmotorsport and is that one of
the reasons that we haven't seenwomen coming through?
That it hasn't been thatinvestment and that opportunity
to get seat time?
Catie Munnings (33:42):
100.
You know it's one of my biggestfrustrations in the sport and
it has been since I very firststarted, and it's a lesson I
think you and something you haveto get over and deal with very
early on in your career, becauseit doesn't matter what level
you're competing at.
When I was in the EuropeanChampionship, there was
competitors who's you know dad'sowned oil companies or whatever
, and and they're testing everysingle day of the year and
(34:02):
they're able to have unlimitedbudgets, tires, you know, pay
the best coaches in the worldand and from from the driving
side, even in the low levels,when you're trying to do a
training day, you're talkingtens of thousands, because in
rallying you've got to shutpublic roads, you've got to get
permission from the council,you've got to have fire brigade,
police engineers, ambulancesthere.
(34:22):
It's a really expensive sportand it's not something where you
can just go and pick up atennis racket and get to a level
where you think you'recompetitive and then go for it
yourself.
It's very frustrating from thatside and I've worked with
mental coaches actually when Ifirst started, who would say to
me that you have to think of itlike what's in your control is
in your control, what's notisn't.
So they said A plus B equalsresults.
(34:44):
You know A is everything thatyou can do, so you train as much
as you can with your budget andyou give your everything and
know that you go to the race asprepared as you can be.
B is your competitors that havegot all the budget in the world
and you're never going to beable to affect that.
So those two combined is whatequals results.
So just do your best and thenyou'll see where that gets you.
And I think you have to separateyourself from the fact that
(35:04):
it's not a fair sport, and thathappens very early on in your
career from a grassroots level.
And I think what I've lovedabout Extremely the most is the
fact that it has given ninewomen out there.
Exactly the same.
We have exactly the sametesting days as CAT, and the
teams are pretty much equalacross the board in terms of how
they use those days andtraining.
And that's what I love is thatnow I feel like when I line up
(35:26):
on the start line OK, this isequal with the competitors that
we've got here, and I think theresults have spoken for
themselves of what that's donefor the drivers, but I think it
is one.
Going back to the broaderpicture, I think it is one of my
biggest frustrations.
I would love to see moreinitiatives open up with real
opportunities.
You know, more competitions andshootouts for talent that
doesn't have a family involved,involved in motorsport, or
(35:48):
doesn't have a route that theyknow how to get into, but is
talented, and I'd love to seemore opportunities where there's
an actual prize, that thatmeans something at the end of it
, not just kind of a one-offtest or something, but an actual
package that gives them a realchance to make it to the top
yeah, because there's no reasonthat a woman shouldn't compete
alongside a man.
Sue Anstiss (36:06):
in that you know physically, physically, mentally
, all those things, it's one ofthose few sports that truly
could be equal A hundred percentand you know it'll be.
Catie Munnings (36:17):
My teammate is the biggest believer in that,
because his mum was Europeanrallycross champion as well.
His dad was the most successfulrallycross driver ever what a
pedigree I know it is and hisbrother is also.
They run the factory Red BullWorld Rallycross team now, so
they're just the most crazyfamily, but he's he gets it from
that side.
So that's why I love workingwith him the most is because he
fully believes that I can befaster than him and then you
(36:38):
know when I am.
Then he sits there studying mydata and I sit there studying
his data, and when you have apackage like that, I think
that's what makes a reallysuccessful team.
So we've been together in thein Extreme E since the very
first race of the very firstseason now.
But I genuinely believe thatthey're in our sports.
In off-road I can't 100 speakfor formula one because I'm you
know I'm not exposed to the sameg forces that they have, but I
(37:00):
genuinely believe that in oursport it can be that that's the
case uh, you hosted a cbb showand you seem a complete natural
in front of the camera and mediaand so on, so is that something
that you'd like to do more ofin the future?
yeah, I really enjoyed it.
That show was incredible.
I've you know it was a tightand filming time frame so I
would try three differentamazing machines literally
(37:23):
through the day and I'd be likedoing a helicopter in the
morning, a submarine and then,you know, a fighter plane in the
afternoon afternoon.
It was ridiculous because I wascompeting full-time in the
European Championship at thesame time.
So the schedule was absolutelyhorrific and I got to the end of
it absolutely exhausted and itwas actually quite hard because
they commissioned another twoseasons straight away because it
(37:43):
was such a hit with the kidsand it was such a good time, I
think, for a female to beshowing young kids how to drive
diggers and things like that.
But I think for me it had takenaway a lot from my performance
in Raleigh and towards the endof it, also my performance in
the show, because I'd turn up tofilming and I couldn't remember
the lines, because I'm alsotrying to remember 500 different
(38:04):
roads in Latvia that I'm goingto go and compete on and it was
a real challenge from that side.
I wanted to give one thing 100%and and I got into motorsport
with a view of wanting to dothat, so I wanted to see that
through because I was on a realtrajectory and I was signing
with Red Bull and, and I didn'tknow where that could lead me
for the future, so it was reallyhard to say no to them.
(38:24):
Um, because it was something Ilove so much and something that
I hope to do more of in thefuture, one day maybe, because,
um, yeah, I really enjoy I doenjoy that kind of presenting
side as well, but I think fornow I just wanted to give myself
the chance to be the personthat is is at the top of racing
and what do you hope you mightcontribute?
Sue Anstiss (38:42):
what do you want your legacy to be from
motorsport through your career?
So obviously as a brilliantathlete and kind of breaking new
ground.
But what else would you like tohave?
Where would you like to haveimpact?
Catie Munnings (38:51):
I think it's for me.
I'd like to show young not justgirls, but young boys and girls
, the kind of underdogs comingthrough, because I'd never had
the support to do it properly,like I'd never.
Obviously my family helped asmuch as they could and I would
never be here without them, butI was never the one that had it
easy, and I think that that'swhat I'd love to show is how far
you can kind of come through,not just now in racing electric
(39:12):
cars, but here I am in boats andI don't know what the future
will hold from that side.
But I think someone said to methe other day that you just say
yes to everything, which isprobably quite true.
That's something that my dadtold me early on in my career.
He said you have to say youknow, take every opportunity
that you can, because it's it'sso short-lived in sport and you
know these opportunities are sorare.
So just say yes and and go forit, and I think that that's
(39:34):
something that I kind of tookthrough my career.
So I think I would love to showyoung children that you don't,
I guess.
I guess my main thing is thatyou don't feel qualified to do
it, but you do it and then youcan get quite good at it.
Is is um, fake it till you makeit, because I think that's a
big message that I've learnedthrough sport but I think
relates to the real world aswell, and business and
(39:55):
everything else.
I think nobody kind of feelslike they're qualified and at a
level where they are ready to gofor that promotion or whatever
it might be.
But I think if you're somebodythat puts yourself out there,
you realize you're actually justas well prepared as everybody
else and you can probably doquite a good job of it.
So I hope that that kind of sayyes attitude is something that
I leave behind.
Sue Anstiss (40:16):
So just finally, Catie, if a young woman was
inspired by you and wanted afuture in any form of motor
racing, what's the best way forthem to get started?
Catie Munnings (40:25):
I would get involved with the local motor
club.
So I think there you'll findpeople that are really
enthusiastic, that have got somecontacts, maybe in grassroots
level, with the local motor club.
So I think there you'll findpeople that are really
enthusiastic, that have got somecontacts, maybe in grassroots
level or volunteering wise.
I would probably just immersemyself in some local events
until you can kind of build alittle bit of a network, because
you never know somebody thatknows.
Somebody that knows somebodymight be able to help out.
(40:45):
And I think nowadays is the besttime to get involved into
motorsport, because there's somany young development programs
coming through, whether you wantto work in stem and the
engineering side, whether youwant to be a driver.
I think that there's that.
You know the industry isfeeling the pressure to create
opportunities and createacademies and space for it.
So I think that there's loadsof groups like girls on track
(41:06):
and and driver shootouts as well.
The fia are putting drivershootouts out there now.
So I would sign up foreverything that you can,
basically, and try to build alittle network of your own and
it's so important, isn't it aswell?
Sue Anstiss (41:18):
just taking on from that, it isn't just about
driving.
We're talking about driving andbeing a driver, but actually
it's everything within the worldof sport and motorsport and, as
you say, the engineer, theproduction side, the you know,
bringing your science, your math, all those different areas to a
magnificent sport.
Catie Munnings (41:32):
Yeah, and when you look into it, a lot of the
best kind of performances inmotorsport have actually been
females, behind the strategy inF1 or you know.
There's a load more roles outthere that I still don't even
know about that.
I meet incredible women throughGirls on Track is a great
example, because I'm a driverambassador, but they've got
ambassadors from differentFormula One teams in engineering
, the aerodynamics designers,they've got the Sky Sports
(41:55):
presenters, and so I think whenyou go to a community event like
that, you really learn what ispossible, because I think some
of the unsung heroes inmotorsport in the past have
definitely been women.
Sue Anstiss (42:11):
Well, you can certainly see why Catie's having
such success.
It's fascinating to learn moreabout extreme e and all Catie's
doing as a driver and beyond herracing, if you'd like to hear
more from trailblazers likeCatie.
There are over 180 episodes ofthe game changes podcast that
are free to listen to on allpodcast platforms or from our
(42:31):
website at www.
fearlesswomen.
co.
uk.
My guests include eliteathletes, coaches, entrepreneurs
, broadcasters, scientists,journalists and CEOs all women
who are driving change in sport.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
can also find out more about theWomen's Sport Collective, a
free, inclusive community forall women working in sport.
(42:54):
We now have over seven and ahalf thousand members across the
world, so please do come andjoin us again.
That's on the fearless womenwebsite.
The whole of my book Game On: The Unstoppable Rise of Women's (43:03):
undefined
Sport is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Every episode of Series 13 isme reading a chapter of the book
.
Thanks again to Sport Englandfor backing The Game Changers
Podcatst and the Women's SportCollective through the National
Lottery, and to Sam Walker atWhat Goes On Media, who does
(43:24):
such a brilliant job as ourexecutive producer.
Thank you also to my lovelycolleague at Fearless Women,
Kate Hannon.
You can find The Game Changerson all podcast platforms and do
follow us now so you don't missout on future episodes.
Come and say hello on socialmedia, where you'll find me at
(43:46):
Sue Anstiss, The Game ChangersFearless women in sport.
Hello and welcome to the Game Changers.
I'm Sue Anstiss, and this isthe podcast where you'll hear
from trailblazing women in sportwho are knocking down barriers
and challenging the status quofor women and girls everywhere.
What can we learn from theirjourneys as we explore key
issues around equality in sportand beyond?
I'd like to start with a bigthank you to our partner, sport
(00:25):
England, who support the gamechangers through a national
lottery award.
My guest today is one ofBritain's most successful racing
talents rally driver and RedBull sponsored Catie, Munnings.
Catie shot to fame in 2016after she became the first
(00:45):
Briton to win a European rallytitle for 49 years after winning
the FIA European RallyChampionships ladies trophy.
In addition to her racingexploits, Catie launched a
successful TV career as the hostof a CBB show, Catie's Amazing
Machines, which introduced youngchildren to some of the biggest
and fastest machines in theworld.
(01:06):
From traditional rally driving,Catie's moved on to compete in
an exciting new format Extreme E, a radical all-electric
off-road racing series in themost remote corners of the
planet impacted by climatechange.
Eight teams consisting of onemale and one female driver
racing to highlight globalissues and test new emerging .
(01:28):
C atie is widely regarded as oneof the fastest drivers in
Xtreme E.
In fact, her recent performancein Saudi Arabia saw her amongst
the quickest drivers overall.
Earlier this year, Catie alsobecame the first person to have
driven a Formula E and Extreme Ecar, as well as pilot an E-race
boat All championships underthe electric 360 umbrella.
(01:51):
So, Catie, we're obviouslygoing to talk a lot about
driving in a moment, but can westart with other sports?
I believe you were very good atathletics growing up, so
pentathlon and netball, so howwere those sports a part of your
life?
Catie Munnings (02:05):
Oh, I absolutely loved them.
I was just really competitiveas a personality.
You know anything.
I was used to be awful well, itstill is to play board games
with me.
But yeah, when I was growing up, I think sport at school was
one of my favourite things.
I was really into netball.
I think we came second innational champs when I was at
school.
So that was my first kind oftaste of strategy.
And when I was at school, sothat was my first kind of taste
(02:25):
of strategy and working towardsa bigger kind of championship
rather than just low level kindof sports.
That really gave me a taste forcompetition and for progress.
And then, when I was a bit older, I really got into athletics.
That was about the time whenJessica Ennis was doing the
London 2012 Olympics and she waslike my biggest idol when I was
growing up.
So I started doing thepentathlon, um, and I had a
(02:46):
coach.
And then, um, yeah, I rememberactually I didn't get a ticket
to go to the olympics but, um, Imanaged to sneak into the
olympic stadium.
I managed to get like a ticketfor handball and my sister was
in there with someone else, butthey weren't really interested
in the olympics, so they cameout and then I used their ticket
to go and I think crossing theline of the 200 or something
like that, and you know Iremember that moment forever.
Oh wow, that's amazing.
Sue Anstiss (03:07):
Amazing to hear.
And what position do you playin netball?
I always like to get thosenetball questions in oh, it's
goal shooter.
Oh, good, good, yeah.
And it was your home life andyour family life that really
initiated that love of driving.
So can you tell us how that allbegan?
Yeah, I had.
Catie Munnings (03:23):
To me it was quite normal as an upbringing,
but it definitely wasn't normallooking back on it now.
My parents ran like amotorsport entertainment company
so we used to have stag do's atthe house every Saturday and
they had some fields and a bitof woodland and so stuff like
quad biking and pilots, buggies,archery, all of that stuff
would be going on and I'd jumpon quad bikes and help.
My dad set up the fields at 6amevery Saturday morning when I
(03:46):
was probably about 10 until Iwas about 18.
So I just was always drivingthings and old cars in the
fields and my dad used to be arally driver as well, so he was
an instructor at some rallyschools, so I'd go to work with
him and sit in the passengerside of his car.
So yeah, it was veryunconventional but it was
completely normal to me and itwas never something that I
considered, you know, a careerin or thought that there would
(04:07):
be any opportunities.
It was just purely a completelove for it, you know.
Sue Anstiss (04:10):
I remember you did your first handbrake turn at
just 13.
So how did you then progressfrom having fun on quad bikes
and old cars and your family'sfarm to actually racing?
What was that transition?
Catie Munnings (04:22):
Well, when I was , I think, 14, I started
competing, so I was driving from, you know, as soon as I could
reach the pedals on my dad's lap, basically.
But, um, when I was 14, in ourlocal airfield the local motor
club ran grass auto testing,which is is perfect for anyone
wanting to get into motorsport,because it's kind of car control
skills, but a very grassrootslevel.
So I think you paid five poundsevery other week and you could
(04:43):
take any car, so.
So people would get cars fromscrapyards or whatever and it
could be a road car and you justgo to your local motor club.
For us it was at the airfieldand it was on grass.
Someone sets up a few differentslalom courses with poles and
then, yeah, it's stuff likereverse flicks, all the kind of
stunts you see in movies, sohandbrake town, but they run a
junior level.
So that was quite competitiveand I started doing that when I
(05:04):
was 14 and it was mainly becausewhere we lived was very remote
and the lanes used to get reallyicy and my dad was thinking
about us driving ourselves toschool when we turned 17 and he
basically said that he didn'twant us under steering into a
ditch because we didn't know howto handle it.
So that was why he wanted us toget a bit of car knowledge
behind our backs.
And yeah, I just I fell in lovewith that.
I was massively competitiveperson and my sister was doing
(05:27):
it at the same time.
It was really funny becauseshe's not competitive at all,
but she was really good at itand I always wonder what she
would have done if she'd havekept going in sport as well.
Sue Anstiss (05:34):
And when did you actually get behind the steering
wheel of a rally car itself?
Catie Munnings (05:39):
Well, that was quite a unique opportunity
because I'd been competing ingrass water testing for quite a
while and then we werespectating on a round of the
European Rally Championship inBelgium and I, just by chance,
we got speaking to some of theorganisers who were talking
about a lack of women in sportand especially in rally, and
they were trying to open up moredoors, and they said that there
was a kind of rookie test goingon with Peugeot later in the
(06:01):
year and I managed to get aninvite to it.
But I'd never driven a rallycar before and I turned up to
the test and it was like therewas the current European
champions there, the Frenchchampions, and it was in Mont
Blanc.
So it was a really steepmountainside, tiny, narrow
gravel track and it was bearingin mind I'm 17 at the time, so
I'm only just driving on theroad and this car was left-hand
drives, which already feelsreally alien.
It was a sequential gearbox andyou know it was a proper kind
(06:24):
of rally car that they run inthe junior level of the world
championship, and I rememberjust being like I don't even
know if I have got the clutchcontrol to pull away in this and
I ended up sitting next to theFrench champion at the time and
he was giving me some lessonsand I sat next to him while he
was driving me and I wasabsolutely blown away with what
he was doing.
And then he said, right, yourturn.
And I did a couple of laps onthe road and I was blown away
(06:45):
and he said, okay, that was inroad mode, we put it in rally
mode now.
I wasn't even in the full power.
So I just remember that momentit was.
It was I couldn't imaginemyself driving like how he was
driving, and it was thatchallenge of wondering if I
could do that.
That was what really gave methe bug, I think, because I was
so impressed with I just thoughtwe were crashing all the time
(07:05):
when I sat next to him.
So for me it was like justwanting to know if I could hone
my skills to be able to do that.
So I managed then to stay withPeugeot and get a bit of support
from Peugeot UK and some localsponsors.
I never had the budget to do itproperly, though, to be honest
with you, I'd always sort oftake the tires off my teammate's
car that were going in the binfor him.
They'd go on my car as new whenI was doing the championship.
(07:25):
But it was just about gettingthe experience for me and, yeah,
I then went into the EuropeanChampionship for about four
years, I think, with Persia.
Sue Anstiss (07:32):
That's amazing, isn't it?
And was it scary when you saythat, how you went up that next
into the next gears, as it were?
Were you scared the first timeyou were there?
Catie Munnings (07:44):
time you were there.
Was it just exhilaration?
Can you remember how you felt?
Yeah, and I think it was.
I think it was that naivety.
You know, I was 17.
I didn't really know the fearkind of side of stuff, so I
think for me it was probably abit of ignorance on what could
go wrong, but I was more justimpressed rather than I and I
had some massive crashes when Iwas starting out.
Everyone does in rally, you know, because you're learning and
it's not like a sport where youmake a mistake and there's a bit
of, you know, runoff room orwiggle weight.
(08:05):
You know, as you're learning,that the consequences are
massive in rally you'recompeting on such narrow roads
and I've hit and crashed intothe side of houses, I've hit
trees.
I've hit, you know, I took outan electricity pylon.
Um, I had some massive crashesin my early days but I never
felt fear with it.
I don't know why.
I think it's.
I think if I was a co-driver Iwould have done, but I think the
fact that I had the steeringwheel and the pedals in my
(08:26):
control, I always felt like Iwas in control, if you know what
I mean.
So I never thought I'd driveout of my limits, which
obviously I did all the time,because the red mist comes down
and you do, but it was neversomething that really helped me
back.
I don't think, and I love the.
It's just a fabulous story,isn't it For someone that is
this amazing driver and actuallyI think I told everyone for
(08:48):
about five years I did passfirst time because I'm so sorry
I hadn't.
Yeah, I think what actuallyhappened was I was sat with the
driving instructor.
He said, no, obviously you candrive, but I do think you did
pull out on a bus at theroundabout and I was like, well,
he didn't hit the bus, he wasgoing slowly.
(09:09):
I pulled out.
You know, to me it wasperfectly fine.
And he said look, I'm gonnahave to fail you, but obviously
I can tell you, but you candrive, but that is a big no-no
on my checklist.
So I had to go back and do itagain, but I was very nervous
doing that.
I think it is actually verystressful.
It's a driving test absolutely.
Sue Anstiss (09:18):
it's good to hear and it's good to share with
other young people that mightnot be passing too.
As I said in the introduction,you went on to win a rally
championship at just 19.
And you also placed fourth, Ithink, overall for men and women
.
The following year andthroughout your career, it seems
that you always talked aboutthis most promising young talent
from the UK, so did that bringadded pressure for you to
(09:40):
perform?
Do you think there's morepeople looking at you in that
way?
Catie Munnings (09:43):
I think, when I started I, we decided to go
straight into the European RallyChampionship because cost-wise,
compared to the BritishChampionship, it was pretty
similar but the exposure was somuch bigger in Europe.
Obviously I think the serieswas covered by Eurosport and I
saw it as an opportunity tocompete against the best in
Europe, you know, because it's ahigher standard.
So obviously I'm a beginner butI thought I would learn faster
against against the top drivers,which obviously came'm a
(10:03):
beginner but I thought I wouldlearn faster against the top
drivers, which obviously camewith a lot more pressure,
because I think I had a lot moreeyes on it.
You know, as a young girl thatnever done anything before going
straight into the EuropeanChampionship and I think the
first year, it was veryeye-opening to me to gain a
thick skin, you know, when youread the comments online.
And the difficulty was I wasone of the only females really
there was a few of us but,especially with no experience, I
(10:24):
was one of the only ones thathad gone straight into the
European Championship and allthe guys I guess because there
was more guys, there wasn't somany eyes on the guys that were
at the beginning that arelearning, whereas I feel like
when I came in I didn't reallyhave the space to learn and have
the beginner stage becausepeople were expecting to see
results instantly.
So that was quite you know.
(10:46):
It's important for me then tohave a lot of family support and
and my kind of squad around me.
That kept me positive, becauseI think the first year was quite
tough with that initiation.
And then when I learned to just, you know, feed back off my
co-driver and the people aroundme and my team and and judge my
progress off that rather thanwhat other people are saying I
kind of grew quite thick skin toit and wasn't bothered by it
anymore.
But I remember at the beginningit was a massive shock to me
(11:07):
because I was like no, I haven'tdone anything.
How can people expect me to begoing in and being the fastest
here?
But I think there wasdefinitely more eyes on because
I was one of the only femalesdoing it.
Sue Anstiss (11:17):
And you mentioned your family support there.
So how important have they been, have they been?
And I love on your Instagram,like your sister and your it's
almost like that people with youin the different venues and
things.
How important has that been tohave that support around you.
What part have they played.
Catie Munnings (11:31):
It's been massive for me.
I think I've always been in akind of family business, if you
know what I mean.
When I was helping my parentswith their company, it was
always very much a family affair, and I think when I started in
motorsport it was as well.
My mum and dad would come withme.
You know we'd take the trailerwith the rally car when I was
starting and it would be verymuch a joint effort and I
wouldn't have been able to evenstart without them.
(11:53):
So I really wanted to continuethat when I moved into different
championships as well.
So I think my dad's pretty muchbeen to all of my races that
I've ever done in differentdisciplines, and you know he
started off as a driver coach.
We now have arguments as to whois the coach and who's being
taught, but and yeah, he is amassive support to me and I
(12:14):
really value that.
I think, especially when you'retraveling in different
countries and touch wood,nothing goes wrong, but when it
does, you know, motorsport is adangerous sport, so it's really
important, I think, to have akind of support unit around you
as well that can be there andhelp you pick up the pieces.
Sue Anstiss (12:26):
And what is it that makes it a great rally driver?
So how much is it about yourskill as a driver which clearly
have versus physical fitness,and then the mental skills, the
ability to stay calm and makethose decisions under kind of
pressured moments?
Catie Munnings (12:40):
I think a lot of it is the mental side.
I I think that we're racing,especially with Extreme E we're
racing in locations that haven'tbeen raced before.
So we'll turn up to the middleof the Saudi Arabian desert and
it's a track that hasn't reallybeen tested.
It's not like circuit racing.
You know where they have a fullrunoff area and they've got all
of the different.
You know safety measures inplace.
(13:00):
Obviously we do in our own way,but it's very much more than to
drive a judgment.
You know massive jumps off sanddunes and over rock crawls in
Greenland and when you're goinginto practice for the first time
, often I sit on the start linethinking I have no idea how I'm
going to get around the coursein one piece.
I have no idea what speed totake that jump, I have no idea
how to get over those rocks andit's something that really
(13:22):
requires quite a lot of mentalstrength, I think, and obviously
a support unit around you.
I'm really good friends with myteammates, so we talk about
everything and we really go intoit together and I think that
makes a big difference to me.
But I think the mental side ofthat is really important and I
think also the resilience if youhave a crash.
But then you've got to be backon pace the next day and it's
very hard to do that.
I think there and it's very hardto do that, I think there's a
(13:43):
number of things that come intoit.
Obviously it's massivelyexpensive.
So if you're in motorsport whenI was starting out, obviously
finding my own sponsorship, mostof the time I'd be driving with
the thought that I can't make amistake because I can't afford
to pay the insurance payout or Iwon't be at the next race.
And nowadays, obviously withracing at a higher level, it is
very expensive.
So every time you have a crashit is mind-blowing numbers.
(14:04):
And then you've got to kind ofseparate that from your
performance.
Because if you go out the nextday thinking about that or have
the fear in your mind ofcrashing, then you're, you know,
way back at the end at the backof the pack.
So you have to have um, one ofthe rally drivers.
After I had a big crash when Iwas younger, he told me to have
a goldfish memory.
So that always um, kind of issomething that I try to take
with me if I've had a bad day ina rally or race.
(14:26):
Then to come back the next dayand and you have to kind of just
shut it off completely, and Ithink that that's the hardest,
one of the hardest thingsmentally, that it takes some
time to get your head around.
Um, the physical side is alsoquite a lot.
It's not the same as when youthink of racing like formula one
, because we're in an enclosedcockpit, so we don't have the
same sort of G-forces that theyhave.
(14:46):
But we have our own problems,as it were.
We've got massive jumps,massive impacts to take,
especially our backs.
We have to do a lot of trainingaround our posture to make sure
that we're strong enough totake it and also to prevent
injury.
But also in terms of theconcentration side, we have to
be very fit to be able to keepthat going at a level where
(15:06):
we're competing in cockpits thatare 60 degrees and um, with,
you know, long days in the sun,and then we've got to have the
stamina to be sharp when we needto be and one of my favorite
sports documentaries from recentyears is queen of speed, okay,
the extraordinary story ofmichelle mutant, and I've just
blown away by all she achievedand despite the sexism in the
(15:26):
sport at the time, the lovelyarchive footage, and it is
extraordinary.
Sue Anstiss (15:30):
So can you tell us a little bit more about, I guess
, her and her story and whetherthat has inspired you personally
, seeing a woman that had suchsuccess?
Catie Munnings (15:38):
definitely, um, and she was.
When I was competing in theEuropean Championship she was
the safety delegate, so she'd begoing around in the start and
she'd be telling all in the carat the start and she'd be
telling all the fans they'restanding in dangerous places and
yeah, she's a real powerhouse.
Um, she definitely carved theway, I think, for women in
off-road motorsport and I thinkto some extent as well on track,
because there were so few womenthat were competing at the top
(16:00):
level.
So to have any kind of rolemodel in motorsport was huge and
to see what she did in thosecars in that era, with the
conditions that they raced in,is unbelievable and I love that.
She always just said that sheloved driving.
For her it wasn't necessarilyabout the competition, but she
just loved the feeling ofdriving and improving and that's
something that I can completelyrelate to, because there's so
much that's out of our control,you know, with our competitors
(16:22):
and the development, the speedof others, but if you keep that,
pure enjoyment I think.
But she really had the wholeway through her career.
That's what kind of powers youthrough.
So, yeah, I was, I was verystarstruck when I first met her,
but she was definitely, I think, the biggest inspiration that I
had when I was growing up inmotorsport.
Sue Anstiss (16:37):
I love it.
She's very cool, so I just kindof like her attitude very blase
and, yeah, fantastic.
You've been racing in Xtreme Efor the Andretti team since the
series began in 2021, alongsideSwedish rally driver Timmy
Hansen.
So for those that don'tnecessarily know, can you share
a little bit more about Xtreme Eand its ambitions?
Catie Munnings (17:01):
Yeah, absolutely so.
When I first heard about thechampionship it sounded like
something from a movie.
I never thought it would takeoff.
To be honest with you, it wasin lockdown that I heard about
it.
So I'm sort of sat at home andI got a call and they said we're
going to be creating anelectric off-road motorsport
championship where we're goingto race in places that are
hardly touched by humanity buthave had massive effects of
climate change.
So places like the Greenlandice sheet.
(17:21):
We've raced Saudi Arabian desert, some of the beaches in Senegal
, so it's basically racing withthe purpose of raising awareness
about each location that we goto.
So we have an amazingscientific committee.
It's made up some by some ofthe the professors from Oxford
and Cambridge and some of thetop marine biologists in the
world, and we go to locationsthat have been affected by
(17:42):
climate change and I think theorganizers take on boards from
the scientists some of theissues that the areas are facing
and then we create legacyprograms.
So it's not a normal race weekfor us.
We'll go a week before and twoor three days we'll probably
spend with the scientists andlocal charities, organizations,
places that are giving back, Iguess, and some of the
sponsorship from thechampionship then goes into
(18:04):
those programs and has kind oflong lasting, you know,
multi-year programs.
So it was really nice for me tosee that that actually happened
when I first started racing,because it was quite a selfish
sport before then.
You know, it was something thatI did just for myself but
didn't necessarily feel like itwas giving that much back.
And then suddenly we're racingin places where it's changing
the landscape of the beaches inSaudi Arabia for the Red Sea
(18:26):
Turf population and planting amillion mangroves off the coast
of Senegal, in Africa.
And when you go to those placesand then you speak to the local
people and you hear thedifferences actually making to
their livelihoods, you know interms of income, in terms of
better living conditions, andyou hear, for the scientists as
well, how important it is tohave a broader voice, because
they say they publish researchpapers and it only gets however
(18:49):
many views.
And then suddenly, when it'sput into the voice that sport
has on itv or wherever it'splayed, people that were not
looking for that informationsuddenly learn a lot as well as
watching the motorsport.
So it was the perfectcombination really, um, for
something different, and I thinkthat it had to be really high
level racing in order to keepthe fans and have that
attraction and the viewers inthe first place.
(19:10):
But when I switch to thescientists and find out the
difference that it's actuallymaking for them and their
research papers and opening updoors for them, it really, you
know, you feel like you'reactually achieving something
pretty big there that'sfantastic, isn't it a real
win-win?
Sue Anstiss (19:22):
and how different is it for you as a driver of the
extreme the electric car versusa traditional combustion engine
of a rally car?
What's the difference like as adriver?
Catie Munnings (19:33):
it's not as much as I thought it would be.
So when I first saw the cars inreal life, I'd actually already
signed with Andretti and wewent to our first test and I
remember seeing how big it looksin the garage and I thought how
am I going to drive that?
You know it looks like a tank,absolutely massive.
But when you start to drive itit felt very similar to a rally
car that I've driven beforequite heavy, so you obviously
(19:56):
have to bear that in mind.
It's quite top heavy so theyhave a tendency to tip and roll.
So a lot of the driving stylewas around trying to set it up,
to keep it planted so that youdon't have the the kind of that
roll rate that you have um inoff-road conditions.
You know, if you catch a rut oran angle at a wrong um
direction then it's very easy toflip and I think you probably
have seen some of the bigcrashes we've had in the past.
So for us it was also from theelectric side.
(20:19):
It was obviously an instanttorque.
It was very fast off the offthe start line.
There's no gears, so it's kindof easier to drive in a way,
because we have less to do.
We don't have a clutch, wedon't have gears to worry about,
the power's there instantlywhere we want it.
But we had to readjust how wefeel the car.
I think because you know in thepast, when you lock wheels,
when you're braking hard is youcan hear it because there's
(20:40):
something going on in thegearbox and you get different
sensations, whereas now, withthe powertrain that we had, you
had to feel a lot more throughthe seat because some of those
tools and sensors had kind ofgone away when we switched to
electric.
So after after a couple ofraces, I think you're up to.
But I think for anyone cominginto a new car like that,
there's obviously an adjustmentperiod.
And yeah it was.
(21:00):
But for the first season nobodyknew what was going to happen.
You know we were racing inplaces with big drops, with
water splashes, with all of thisdifferent stuff and we were
testing this brand newtechnology.
Obviously the heat as well.
We're trying to keep thebatteries cool between sessions.
So we had different coolingtechniques and we have to adjust
the power levels based on howmuch we thought the battery
would degrade during the day.
(21:22):
So there was a lot from anengineering side that went into
the first seasons and developingthat with the championship.
But, yeah, it's very exciting.
I think it's now up to a levelwhich is, you know, it's
incredibly competitive acrossthe paddock now and it's
increased so much over the lastfew years, which I think is
amazing for women in motorsport,because when we first started
out and it still is that eachteam has a male and a female
(21:42):
driver in the team.
But obviously when the teamswere selecting their drivers,
it's very easy to find eightreally high level male drivers
in the world because there'sbeen so many more men in
motorsport in the past.
So we had Sebastian Loeb, who'showever many time world rally
champion Jenson Button was onthe grid, and then suddenly they
had to find eight female ornine female drivers and there
(22:04):
was women that hadn't beencompeting for a few years that
they brought back, and half ofthe grid I don't think would
have been competing that year ifthey didn't have that
opportunity.
So it was a very steep learningcurve, I think, for us, because
we hadn't had the amount ofexposure and testing time and
everything else that these guyshave had in their professional
careers, and so actually itbecame the difference in the
(22:26):
results was more down to thefemales than the males, and a
lot of the development then waspushed into making the females
fast, because if you had a quickgirl then you know you're doing
really, really well, becauseall the guys were already on a
very similar level.
So it was really interesting.
Actually they did a study toshow the progress of the females
from the first season to nowand I think it's it's almost
flipped.
I think there's some from ourlast race in Saudi Arabia.
(22:47):
We kind of do off this sectorin in the race course, where we
have a very special super sectorwhere we get extra championship
points for being the fastest,and I think now some of the
females are actually faster thanmales for the first time.
So it's really yeah.
In the last few years it'sincreased massively and that's
literally just down to havingthe same access to engineers, to
testing, to the racingconditions, all of the things
(23:10):
that you think might be takenfor granted.
But actually in motorsport,where it's so expensive to do
any testing and progress and andtraining as you're coming up
through the rankings isdefinitely something that you
know is not equal across thepaddock.
So to have that opportunity nowon a professional level has
really made a difference it isfantastic to see, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss (23:28):
and I it does feel like, as I watch from the
outside, almost that approach togender equality is really at
the core of everything.
And we see some sports, don'twe, where they put a woman or
two women in a team, or, butactually because it is
absolutely equal male, female,that that feels so very
different.
And then I think that researchyou said I was reading into it
but there's a like a 26%improvement, I think, in women's
(23:50):
performance from that firstseries to now because, as you
said, they have had that sameopportunity, same seat time,
access to engineers.
So do you think would that bethe same in other motorsports if
women had that same opportunityaccess?
Is it that clearly feels thatthat's what's being demonstrated
here?
Catie Munnings (24:07):
I definitely think so and I think it's.
It's something where I'mmassively for females and males
being able to compete next toeach other in motorsport,
especially in off-road.
Where we're talking about thephysical side is really it's not
that hard to drive the cars.
As long as your power steeringis working and everything, then
it's not a massive physicalelement.
It's more an experience level.
(24:27):
It's a mental game of judgingthe speed and having that edge,
but it's definitely notsomething where I get out of the
car and feel like I've had amassive workout and I'm
suffering compared to myteammate.
I think the women aredefinitely capable of it and I'm
massively for keeping it thatway, that we compete against the
men.
I've always done it the wholeway.
Even when I was in the EuropeanChampionship and there was
(24:48):
ladies' trophies, I'd alwayswanted to be compared to the
fastest driver, whether that isa male or a female, because I
never saw a reason of why Icouldn't be there.
And I think in other forms ofmotorsport as well, that's
really starting to come through,and I think opportunities where
yes, okay, there's things likethe F1 Academy where there's
seats for females, and I thinkthere's a big argument for if
(25:09):
that championship wasn't there,then those females might not
have the support to be racing atall.
So, yes, we want to give themthe support to get them to a
level so that hopefully thenthey can go back into mixed
motorsport at the top level.
But I'd really love to see,when that happens, how far women
can go, because I think thatthese opportunities in the past
there has been someopportunities, but there's never
(25:30):
been okay.
Here's a drive for a reallyfast female.
We've got everything all thetesting you need, all the budget
, you need everything that youneed that's going to be the same
as the guy that's doing it thebest in motorsport.
I don't think there's ever beensomething like that and it's not
necessarily a gender thing.
I think it's because you've gotto look right back to grassroots
levels.
I mean, I worked with SusieWolfe when she started her there
(25:51):
To Be Different campaign onthis and then now with girls on
track, and we used to go aroundto schools and we'd say put your
hands up if you want to be aracing driver, and most of them
would say what?
I didn't think you could be,because when I watch Formula One
, it's only men.
So when you're limiting it fromthat early on.
I think that you don't haveenough girls coming into karting
or from the engineering side,whatever it might be in
motorsport, and then of course,you know, not all the guys that
(26:13):
start end up filtering throughto the top.
So of course, if you've gotfewer levels of females, it's
even harder to make it to thetop.
So I think it has to reallystart from quite a low level and
it will take a long time tofilter through all the way up to
the top, to have the women riseto the top of Formula One as
well.
Sue Anstiss (26:28):
Can you imagine if you had an F1, every team had to
have a male and female driver?
How extraordinary that would be?
There you are, I've solved it.
There you go.
We'll just make that happenExactly.
We are seeing much more.
I mean, you mentioned the F1Academy and obviously Girls on
Track, and those initiatives aremore than equal, evolving as an
entity as well.
So these new initiatives, itfeels like people are suddenly
(26:51):
waking up to the disparitythat's there, although obviously
we have been talking about itfor years and years.
So do you feel like in the lastfew years there is this big
shift and if so why do you feelnow that we're talking about it
more definitely?
Catie Munnings (27:05):
there has been.
I think it's an amazing time tobe a female in motorsport,
especially for the nextgeneration that are coming in.
You know the opportunities withthe F1 academy and and brands
like Charlotte Tilbury andpeople like that coming on board
.
I remember when I first startedin rally and I tried to get
female brand sponsorship.
It was so hard because you'dspeak to them and they'd say,
yeah, but there's no femalefollowing in motorsports.
So who are we selling to?
And I kind of saw it as theopposite.
(27:26):
I was thinking this is a realopportunity, yeah, and now it
seems to be that it's comearound that way.
So I think that the future islooking really bright.
But I think, from a championshipside and what Extreme E did was
very clever, because it has tobe from a sporting side that you
have to have an incentive tohave a female in the team,
because they're, all you know,massive companies.
You know, when you look atFormula One, they're not just
(27:46):
there to run around, they wantto win.
And so I think, with Extreme Eputting it so that there was no
male result and there was nofemale result.
It completely took out theelement of having a female in
the team just for the media andto say, oh, you know, I'm a
woman in motorsport, I'll do allthe media interviews and my
teammate can do all the hot lap.
It suddenly became actually wereally need to make these
females fast, because then wecan win races.
(28:07):
So I think they were veryclever the way that they did it.
And I actually speak todifferent championships now in
off-road that are wanting tohave more women involved and
saying how do we do it?
How do we incentivize teams tohave women?
And I'm thinking well, you'vegot to.
You know you've got to fit itinto the sporting program
somehow as a team, becauseotherwise I think you know it
will just happen too slowly.
You've got to put pressure onthem to to make a change that
(28:29):
will benefit their results.
Sue Anstiss (28:31):
It's a fantastic example, isn't it?
For other, for othermotorsports, for other sports
too, of changing the ecosystemof the sport itself to truly
make it equal, rather thanrelying on people to do what
they might know to be right.
But over time, as you say, itwill just take too long to
change.
Catie Munnings (28:46):
And the nice thing about it is I never just
want to be a token female in arace.
What I actually love and Ithink it's proven since the last
kind of four years is that thefemales are there because
they're now the top drivers.
You know there's femaleswinning races outright over the
men that have got so much moreexperience in motorsport.
But because we've all got thesame experience in this car and
(29:07):
on this surface it highlightsthem as profiles.
And now there's actually beenother opportunities and other
championships that have openedup to the women that are at the
top of their game because theysee actually, no, that's a
really fast driver.
So there's been differentdrives open up for for some of
us in in other areas that haveno incentives for females in
motorsport, but because we'vebeen recognized and our kind of
(29:28):
performances have beenhighlighted on a big stage
against, you know, top driversin the world and I mentioned in
the introduction that you'vealso become the first person to
drive uh E and Extreme E andPilot and E1 race boats.
Sue Anstiss (29:39):
So once you're a brilliant driver, what is that
crossover for drivers indifferent formats?
Is it not just jumping a boatand that's easy, but obviously
you've got that skill set andthat ability to drive.
Catie Munnings (29:52):
It is, and I think it's, as I said earlier,
quite a mental thing when you,when you know how to get the
edge out of a vehicle and amachine and you know what what
takes, what it takes to becompetitive at a high level in
one discipline.
It's actually very similar indifferent disciplines, although
I will say I've literally justcome off the back of an e1 race
this weekend in a boat.
We were in porto benudes and itwas so rough.
So me and timmy are actuallyteammates in e1 as well.
(30:14):
It was really funny becausewhen the the program came about,
we had to do some training on alake and and I at first we were
offered it because it was kindof the same team, um as extreme
e, that were running thechampionship and they said does
anyone want to be a pilot inthis series?
And I said well, no, becauseI'm not a powerboat racer.
It'll be really embarrassing.
I'll just run around at theback.
I don't know what I'm doing.
But Timmy said I'll come andhave a go um, and when he came
(30:36):
back from his training he saidCatie, you've got to go and do
it.
It's so similar.
As soon as you can feel thewater and the grip of the water,
it's the same.
We've got a steering wheel,we've got a throttle pedal.
He said then you're racing.
And I thought, okay, I'll goand give it a go and it's all,
and the waves and everythinglike that, because it's
definitely not that similar.
(30:57):
So, yeah, it's a new challengefor us at the minute to be
racing on water, but I thinkit's.
I do genuinely believe thatmotorsport is so advanced the
way that we study data, the waythat we analyze our performance
together and the stuff that wesay with the engineers is so
transferable into a differentdiscipline that we come at it
with a really analytical eye, Ithink, compared to probably most
powerboat racing championships,where it's a lot more on
(31:20):
feeling.
So it's really interesting tonow combine those two worlds and
work with them and learn theirexperience of the water, because
we're bringing tools and kindof data that they don't normally
use in in the water world andthey're giving us a lot more
insight into how to read thewaves and how to actually react
to them.
So that's a new challenge forme at the minute, but it's
definitely something where Ithink if I just looked at it on
(31:41):
paper, I would never think I wasqualified to do it.
And here we are.
We're on the back of twopodiums against some of the best
powerboat races in the world,so I think it's definitely
achievable if you put yourselfout there no-transcript very
(32:06):
different really.
It's kind of, I guess, likesaying to like a dressage rider,
would you go and do the grandnational, if you know what I
mean.
I think on paper, yes, theyprobably look the same, but when
you get into motorsport yourealize that if you want to have
done formula one, you've got tobe karting from when you're
eight years old and going upthrough the ranks.
I've probably been karting fourtimes in my life, so I think
I'm the best qualified.
There's some amazing girls thatare coming up through the ranks
(32:29):
that will have a go at that,but for me it's not something.
I mean, I've done track daysand with cars and I've been on
circuits.
For me it's not where my passionis, because I just love.
I love the feeling of beingoff-road and having the
challenges that we have withjumps, with the conditions
changing all the time, slidingon gravel, those sorts of things
.
I don't think you get fromcircuit racing.
(32:49):
It's a lot more down to the youknow, perfect laps, every
single lap, it's all exactly thesame.
Conditions are the same and Ithink it's a lot more about the
technical kind of data side withyour engineers, which we still
have a lot in off-road.
But in off-road, I think it's alot more spontaneous and it's a
lot more relying on yourinstincts as a driver, which is
where my sort of passion is.
Sue Anstiss (33:08):
So so yeah, maybe in another lifetime, but I think
for now no, and motorsport issuch an expensive sport to be
involved in as well, andespecially in that Formula One.
There's that kind of idea thatmoney buys talent and I, you
know, I'm a Drive to Survive fan.
So the kind of Lawrence Strollstory of a son coming through
(33:28):
because his dad bought the team.
So how much do you feel that isthat?
Is that the case acrossmotorsport and is that one of
the reasons that we haven't seenwomen coming through?
That it hasn't been thatinvestment and that opportunity
to get seat time?
Catie Munnings (33:42):
100.
You know it's one of my biggestfrustrations in the sport and
it has been since I very firststarted, and it's a lesson I
think you and something you haveto get over and deal with very
early on in your career, becauseit doesn't matter what level
you're competing at.
When I was in the EuropeanChampionship, there was
competitors who's you know dad'sowned oil companies or whatever
, and and they're testing everysingle day of the year and
(34:02):
they're able to have unlimitedbudgets, tires, you know, pay
the best coaches in the worldand and from from the driving
side, even in the low levels,when you're trying to do a
training day, you're talkingtens of thousands, because in
rallying you've got to shutpublic roads, you've got to get
permission from the council,you've got to have fire brigade,
police engineers, ambulancesthere.
(34:22):
It's a really expensive sportand it's not something where you
can just go and pick up atennis racket and get to a level
where you think you'recompetitive and then go for it
yourself.
It's very frustrating from thatside and I've worked with
mental coaches actually when Ifirst started, who would say to
me that you have to think of itlike what's in your control is
in your control, what's notisn't.
So they said A plus B equalsresults.
(34:44):
You know A is everything thatyou can do, so you train as much
as you can with your budget andyou give your everything and
know that you go to the race asprepared as you can be.
B is your competitors that havegot all the budget in the world
and you're never going to beable to affect that.
So those two combined is whatequals results.
So just do your best and thenyou'll see where that gets you.
And I think you have to separateyourself from the fact that
(35:04):
it's not a fair sport, and thathappens very early on in your
career from a grassroots level.
And I think what I've lovedabout Extremely the most is the
fact that it has given ninewomen out there.
Exactly the same.
We have exactly the sametesting days as CAT, and the
teams are pretty much equalacross the board in terms of how
they use those days andtraining.
And that's what I love is thatnow I feel like when I line up
(35:26):
on the start line OK, this isequal with the competitors that
we've got here, and I think theresults have spoken for
themselves of what that's donefor the drivers, but I think it
is one.
Going back to the broaderpicture, I think it is one of my
biggest frustrations.
I would love to see moreinitiatives open up with real
opportunities.
You know, more competitions andshootouts for talent that
doesn't have a family involved,involved in motorsport, or
(35:48):
doesn't have a route that theyknow how to get into, but is
talented, and I'd love to seemore opportunities where there's
an actual prize, that thatmeans something at the end of it
, not just kind of a one-offtest or something, but an actual
package that gives them a realchance to make it to the top
yeah, because there's no reasonthat a woman shouldn't compete
alongside a man.
Sue Anstiss (36:06):
in that you know physically, physically, mentally
, all those things, it's one ofthose few sports that truly
could be equal A hundred percentand you know it'll be.
Catie Munnings (36:17):
My teammate is the biggest believer in that,
because his mum was Europeanrallycross champion as well.
His dad was the most successfulrallycross driver ever what a
pedigree I know it is and hisbrother is also.
They run the factory Red BullWorld Rallycross team now, so
they're just the most crazyfamily, but he's he gets it from
that side.
So that's why I love workingwith him the most is because he
fully believes that I can befaster than him and then you
(36:38):
know when I am.
Then he sits there studying mydata and I sit there studying
his data, and when you have apackage like that, I think
that's what makes a reallysuccessful team.
So we've been together in thein Extreme E since the very
first race of the very firstseason now.
But I genuinely believe thatthey're in our sports.
In off-road I can't 100 speakfor formula one because I'm you
know I'm not exposed to the sameg forces that they have, but I
(37:00):
genuinely believe that in oursport it can be that that's the
case uh, you hosted a cbb showand you seem a complete natural
in front of the camera and mediaand so on, so is that something
that you'd like to do more ofin the future?
yeah, I really enjoyed it.
That show was incredible.
I've you know it was a tightand filming time frame so I
would try three differentamazing machines literally
(37:23):
through the day and I'd be likedoing a helicopter in the
morning, a submarine and then,you know, a fighter plane in the
afternoon afternoon.
It was ridiculous because I wascompeting full-time in the
European Championship at thesame time.
So the schedule was absolutelyhorrific and I got to the end of
it absolutely exhausted and itwas actually quite hard because
they commissioned another twoseasons straight away because it
(37:43):
was such a hit with the kidsand it was such a good time, I
think, for a female to beshowing young kids how to drive
diggers and things like that.
But I think for me it had takenaway a lot from my performance
in Raleigh and towards the endof it, also my performance in
the show, because I'd turn up tofilming and I couldn't remember
the lines, because I'm alsotrying to remember 500 different
(38:04):
roads in Latvia that I'm goingto go and compete on and it was
a real challenge from that side.
I wanted to give one thing 100%and and I got into motorsport
with a view of wanting to dothat, so I wanted to see that
through because I was on a realtrajectory and I was signing
with Red Bull and, and I didn'tknow where that could lead me
for the future, so it was reallyhard to say no to them.
(38:24):
Um, because it was something Ilove so much and something that
I hope to do more of in thefuture, one day maybe, because,
um, yeah, I really enjoy I doenjoy that kind of presenting
side as well, but I think fornow I just wanted to give myself
the chance to be the personthat is is at the top of racing
and what do you hope you mightcontribute?
Sue Anstiss (38:42):
what do you want your legacy to be from
motorsport through your career?
So obviously as a brilliantathlete and kind of breaking new
ground.
But what else would you like tohave?
Where would you like to haveimpact?
Catie Munnings (38:51):
I think it's for me.
I'd like to show young not justgirls, but young boys and girls
, the kind of underdogs comingthrough, because I'd never had
the support to do it properly,like I'd never.
Obviously my family helped asmuch as they could and I would
never be here without them, butI was never the one that had it
easy, and I think that that'swhat I'd love to show is how far
you can kind of come through,not just now in racing electric
(39:12):
cars, but here I am in boats andI don't know what the future
will hold from that side.
But I think someone said to methe other day that you just say
yes to everything, which isprobably quite true.
That's something that my dadtold me early on in my career.
He said you have to say youknow, take every opportunity
that you can, because it's it'sso short-lived in sport and you
know these opportunities are sorare.
So just say yes and and go forit, and I think that that's
(39:34):
something that I kind of tookthrough my career.
So I think I would love to showyoung children that you don't,
I guess.
I guess my main thing is thatyou don't feel qualified to do
it, but you do it and then youcan get quite good at it.
Is is um, fake it till you makeit, because I think that's a
big message that I've learnedthrough sport but I think
relates to the real world aswell, and business and
(39:55):
everything else.
I think nobody kind of feelslike they're qualified and at a
level where they are ready to gofor that promotion or whatever
it might be.
But I think if you're somebodythat puts yourself out there,
you realize you're actually justas well prepared as everybody
else and you can probably doquite a good job of it.
So I hope that that kind of sayyes attitude is something that
I leave behind.
Sue Anstiss (40:16):
So just finally, Catie, if a young woman was
inspired by you and wanted afuture in any form of motor
racing, what's the best way forthem to get started?
Catie Munnings (40:25):
I would get involved with the local motor
club.
So I think there you'll findpeople that are really
enthusiastic, that have got somecontacts, maybe in grassroots
level, with the local motor club.
So I think there you'll findpeople that are really
enthusiastic, that have got somecontacts, maybe in grassroots
level or volunteering wise.
I would probably just immersemyself in some local events
until you can kind of build alittle bit of a network, because
you never know somebody thatknows.
Somebody that knows somebodymight be able to help out.
(40:45):
And I think nowadays is the besttime to get involved into
motorsport, because there's somany young development programs
coming through, whether you wantto work in stem and the
engineering side, whether youwant to be a driver.
I think that there's that.
You know the industry isfeeling the pressure to create
opportunities and createacademies and space for it.
So I think that there's loadsof groups like girls on track
(41:06):
and and driver shootouts as well.
The fia are putting drivershootouts out there now.
So I would sign up foreverything that you can,
basically, and try to build alittle network of your own and
it's so important, isn't it aswell?
Sue Anstiss (41:18):
just taking on from that, it isn't just about
driving.
We're talking about driving andbeing a driver, but actually
it's everything within the worldof sport and motorsport and, as
you say, the engineer, theproduction side, the you know,
bringing your science, your math, all those different areas to a
magnificent sport.
Catie Munnings (41:32):
Yeah, and when you look into it, a lot of the
best kind of performances inmotorsport have actually been
females, behind the strategy inF1 or you know.
There's a load more roles outthere that I still don't even
know about that.
I meet incredible women throughGirls on Track is a great
example, because I'm a driverambassador, but they've got
ambassadors from differentFormula One teams in engineering
, the aerodynamics designers,they've got the Sky Sports
(41:55):
presenters, and so I think whenyou go to a community event like
that, you really learn what ispossible, because I think some
of the unsung heroes inmotorsport in the past have
definitely been women.
Sue Anstiss (42:11):
Well, you can certainly see why Catie's having
such success.
It's fascinating to learn moreabout extreme e and all Catie's
doing as a driver and beyond herracing, if you'd like to hear
more from trailblazers likeCatie.
There are over 180 episodes ofthe game changes podcast that
are free to listen to on allpodcast platforms or from our
(42:31):
website at www.
fearlesswomen.
co.
uk.
My guests include eliteathletes, coaches, entrepreneurs
, broadcasters, scientists,journalists and CEOs all women
who are driving change in sport.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
can also find out more about theWomen's Sport Collective, a
free, inclusive community forall women working in sport.
(42:54):
We now have over seven and ahalf thousand members across the
world, so please do come andjoin us again.
That's on the fearless womenwebsite.
The whole of my book Game On: The Unstoppable Rise of Women's (43:03):
undefined
Sport is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Every episode of Series 13 isme reading a chapter of the book
.
Thanks again to Sport Englandfor backing The Game Changers
Podcatst and the Women's SportCollective through the National
Lottery, and to Sam Walker atWhat Goes On Media, who does
(43:24):
such a brilliant job as ourexecutive producer.
Thank you also to my lovelycolleague at Fearless Women,
Kate Hannon.
You can find The Game Changerson all podcast platforms and do
follow us now so you don't missout on future episodes.
Come and say hello on socialmedia, where you'll find me at
(43:46):
Sue Anstiss, The Game ChangersFearless women in sport.
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