March 11, 2025 • 44 mins
What does it take to lead some of the biggest sporting events in the world?
In this episode, we sit down with Sarah Massey, Managing Director of the Women's Rugby World Cup 2025, to uncover the strategy, ambition and passion behind running global sports championships.
With over 30 years of experience, Sarah has played pivotal roles in organising major sporting events, including Olympic and Commonwealth Games and World Championships, as well as working at the very top of global sports including athletics, rugby, tennis and hockey.
Before taking this key role at World Rugby, Sarah was CEO of the World Athletics Championship Oregon22, having also worked at the International Hockey Federation (FIH) and the International Tennis Federation (ITF).
From her early days at Loughborough University to managing international sporting events, Sarah shares her journey through the world of sports leadership. She talks candidly about the challenges of organising major global events, the importance of building an inclusive and high-performing team, and the key to balancing multiple stakeholders in an ever-evolving sports landscape.
Sarah also reflects on the impact of gender equality in sport.
We explore how the Women’s Rugby World Cup 2025 is set to break records in attendance and visibility as Sarah offers a behind-the-scenes look at what fans can expect from the tournament, how cities and communities are embracing the event, and what legacy she hopes it will leave for women’s rugby worldwide.
If you’re passionate about sports management, leadership or the advancement of women's sports, this episode offers valuable perspectives from one of the industry's leading figures.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sue Anstiss (00:02):
Hello and welcome to the Game Changers.
I'm Sue Anstiss, and this isthe podcast where you'll hear
from trailblazing women in sportwho are knocking down the
barriers and challenging thestatus quo for women and girls
everywhere.
What can we learn from theirjourneys as we explore key
issues around equality in sportand beyond?
I'd like to start with a bigthank you to our partners, Sport
(00:24):
England, who support the GameChangers podcast through a
National Lottery Award.
My guest today is Sarah Massey,the Managing Director of the
Women's Rugby World Cup 2025,who's had a much celebrated
career leading majorinternational sporting events
for over 30 years.
(00:45):
Before taking the significantrole with world rugby, Sarah was
CEO of the World AthleticsChampionship, Oregon 22, where
she led an event that set newbenchmarks in broadcast reach,
digital engagement and fanexperience.
Sarah's extensive careerincludes senior roles at the
International Hockey Federationand the International Tennis
(01:06):
Federation, along withleadership at a wide range of
high-profile international andmulti-sports events and
organisations.
As Managing Director for theWomen's Rugby World Cup 2025,
Sarah aims to deliver atournament that not only
showcases brilliantinternational rugby showcases
brilliant international rugbybut also serves as a catalyst
(01:27):
for increasing the sport'srelevance and accessibility to
new audiences, particularlywomen and girls.
So, Sarah, let's start by goingback to Loughborough University
, which is where we first met.
What were you studying thereand, I guess, what were your
hopes at that time for what youmight do in the future?
Thanks, so yeah.
Sarah Massey (01:49):
Thanks, so yeah, I studied.
I actually did a straightmanagement degree at
Loughborough.
So management science.
I think I'd always longed to doa sports science degree.
So I decided after the firstyear that I might change.
But I think you realise that,actually changing courses and
then starting all over again.
So I was one of thoseLoughborough University students
who wasn't dressed in purpleviolet the entire time but
wished I probably had been.
But actually, looking back,just really pleased now I did a
(02:10):
straight management degree,majored in marketing and just
got a very good breadth of ofbusiness and commercial acumen
as a result.
So I think that stood me ingood stead.
I think I always knew I wantedto work in sport.
Always knew I wanted to work ineither the management or
marketing of sport.
So actually stayed on atLoughborough and did a master's
degree bizarrely in rugby,looking at how you could
(02:32):
translate some of the marketingand management tools and
practices from business intorugby union club.
So traveled the world doingthat project for a year's
master's, then wrote up a yeah,a big dissertation on that.
So yeah, very early step intorugby actually, as it as it
turns out.
Sue Anstiss (02:50):
I love that.
The first question, and Ididn't know that I should have
known that about you, but Ididn't.
I didn't realize that yourmaster's focused on that.
And what was your sport at thetime?
Did you?
Were you playing sport whileyou're at Loughborough?
Sarah Massey (03:00):
Yeah, so I was a hockey player and a squash
player, um, and also did lots ofrunning and actually that's
took up running actually moreseriously once I'd actually left
Loughborough, so wasn'tactually part of the track team
there, but yeah, very much, verymuch then got into running when
I, when I left and towards thelatter end of being at
Loughborough, and that's uh,yeah, that's where I focused my
time and energy.
(03:20):
Now in sport is, uh, is inrunning.
That's my, that's my passionand my love.
Sue Anstiss (03:24):
It's so good to hear, isn't it?
And you obviously have workedwe'll come on to talk about that
in a moment but you've workedin hockey and other elements of
those sports as well too.
But you've had this incrediblecareer, as I mentioned, in
instruction across multiplesports events and organisations.
But where did it all begin?
So, that kind of coming out ofuniversity, what was the first
role that you took?
Sarah Massey (03:41):
so I think because I'd done my master's project in
rugby, I'd obviously got toknow quite a few people that
worked in the sport and therewas an opportunity for a
marketing coordinator at therugby football union, say
bizarrely based at twickenham inan office just across the road
from where we are now, and did acouple of years with them in
the marketing department.
It was at the time where rugbywas literally just turning
(04:02):
professional, so still very muchan amateur sport at that point.
Um, but really looking aftermost, looking after the sponsors
and hospitality and some of thedebentures that were being sold
when they first sold thebenches for the first, the first
refurbishment of the stand thatthey had at Twickenham.
So yeah, sort of cut my teethin rugby right from the very
beginning in a in a marketingrole and loved it then when
(04:24):
actually carried on in rugby.
In the beginning part of mycareer I left there to work on
an agency that was dealing withor managing and implementing the
super 10 competition back thenI know that's now the super
series much, much more advancedand went out to South Africa,
worked out there, worked the1995 rugby world cup in South
Africa so pivotal, obviouslywith Nelson Mandela and Francois
(04:46):
Pienaar, one of the probably,even despite everything I've
done in my career still probablythe moment that still brings me
out in.
Yeah, just an incredible momentand one that very few people
have got the opportunity toexperience.
But, yeah, I was lucky enoughto be there at the final.
So, yeah, amazing.
Sue Anstiss (05:04):
That's incredible, isn't it?
And how does it feel being backat Twickenham?
Now, as you say, like 30 yearson, you've come back to
Twickenham.
I wonder how much has changedin the organisation in World
Rugby, especially, I guess, myinterest in terms of that gender
parity.
But does it feel like they'redifferent organisations to where
they were 30 years ago?
Sarah Massey (05:22):
Yeah, I mean very much so, and I don't think
there's actually anybody leftthere that I worked.
I worked with England rugby allthose all those years on.
Yeah, I mean very differentorganization.
I mean there was very few womenthat were working.
I mean no, no women really backthen in senior positions within
rugby, yeah, and very few of uswithin the organization as a
whole.
But I mean, again, it was itwas much smaller back then as
(05:43):
well.
We're talking 91 when I wasthere, so very much smaller in
terms of its commercialism.
As I said, it was very muchmore of a.
It was an amateur sport backthen, hadn't?
Sue Anstiss (05:53):
it was sort of the era that it was turning
professional, that's so excitingI guess incredible to see that
transition that you've seen andthen coming back into it.
You've obviously then gone onand we'll highlight some of
those as we go through, butyou've had this extraordinary
career working and leading theselarge scale international
events.
I wonder, when you come into anevent of that kind now, what's
the first thing you're planningand thinking about when you're
(06:15):
looking at a global sports eventas a CEO coming in, are there
key elements?
Sarah Massey (06:21):
I think the key for me has always been is what
your strategy is really,defining what you're trying to
achieve with the event.
I know lots of people talkabout, yeah, writing strategies,
leaving them on a shelf.
They all get dusty and you sortof dust them off every so often
and look what's in them.
It's always been really key forme to work out what that event
stands for, what the strategy is, what we're aiming to achieve,
and then setting a roadmap ofhow we go about doing it.
(06:42):
That's what I would always dogoing into a role like that.
I mean, obviously it's aboutgrowing audiences, it's about
increasing participation, butunless you have that hanging
together as one overarchingstrategy, then I think you don't
necessarily succeed as much asyou would do without one.
Sue Anstiss (07:00):
And obviously you keep coming back for more.
So you're clearly loving it andenjoying it, but what are the
elements of managing those majorevents that you most enjoy?
Sarah Massey (07:09):
I think when people say to me you know, what
do you bring?
What are you good at?
I think I have.
Yeah, I have become seeminglyexperienced quite a lot in
managing large, complex projectswith lots of different
stakeholders, with an immovabledeadline.
And I love that, becausethere's nothing better than
knowing you've got an end goalin sight, you've got fixed
(07:31):
deadline.
Everything has to be done tomeet that.
And just dealing with all of thecomplexity and the various
different stakeholders along theway and building a team I mean,
when I started at Rugby WorldCup back in May 2023, that was
just me.
Obviously there was a lot ofpeople at world rugby who'd been
progressing the tournament upuntil then, but it was then me
opportunity to then build yourteam, build your senior team,
(07:53):
and then obviously they've thenstarted recruiting people from
there.
But just seeing it all cometogether, you can.
You can define your own ownpathway as well.
You can define what you wantyour culture to be.
You can really build it againaccording to the strategy that
you've built.
But you then build around thatwith every single different
element.
You're not inheriting reallyanything at all when you go into
(08:14):
one of those projects.
Sue Anstiss (08:15):
So interesting, isn't it.
I was going to ask you aboutthe team, because you've
obviously got some prettyincredible people within that
top senior team.
You say they're now recruitingothers too.
Is there a key, would you say,to building a strong event team,
especially when you're workinginternationally, you're going
kind of into, perhaps, a countryor a place that you haven't
worked before.
Is there any advice that youwould give to how you go about
(08:37):
recruiting?
Because obviously they're thekey, aren't they the key
foundation that that senior team?
Sarah Massey (08:42):
yeah, I mean obviously very different between
doing it in a country where youare more familiar with people's
CVs and backgrounds and whatthey've done before, than doing
it internationally, where it'svery much more difficult.
But I think you get used toknowing exactly what you want
from the roles that you'reyou're hiring.
That's the same.
I mean it's pretty much thesame sort of role you're hiring.
(09:02):
In each role, obviously,different people are going to
fit it, but you get to knowexactly what you're looking for
and what experience you want andalso just how you want the team
to work together.
So, looking at differentpersonalities that each person
in the senior team is going tobring and making sure that
you've got a really good mix ofbackgrounds, experiences,
diversity, lived and people thatyou know that can meet that.
(09:26):
But yeah, we've got a greatsenior team at the moment.
So we've got there's five of us.
We're all female, which isreally important to us, I think,
to make sure that we areshowing we're being role models
and making sure that we areshowing walking exactly what
we're saying and people quiteoften ask me about.
Was it intentional?
No, we didn't go out andrecruit a full senior team of of
(09:48):
women.
We employed, the best peoplefor the job and the best people
for the job that fitted what wewere looking for, um happened to
be those four other women, sowe have rebecca leach, um jemma
wiggs, amy bywater luttman andashwini rao, who just joined us
as well.
So, yeah, really, really,really strong team.
We work really closely together.
I've built up a really goodtrust and relationship and
loyalty between us as well, andeverybody's very clear on what
(10:11):
their individual role andresponsibility is, what they
have to deliver according to thestrategy and, yeah, we, we make
sure we keep together very muchas a team.
Sue Anstiss (10:19):
You mentioned stakeholders there.
I had, uh was thinking I wasgoing to ask you about that.
And in researching I wasthinking who are those
stakeholders?
And I was thinking I was goingto ask you about that.
And in researching it I wasthinking who are those
stakeholders?
And I was thinking, oh my good,international teams and the
nations and the sponsors and theregional hosts for this event
too, but also the broadcastersand government and the Home
Union.
So how do you balance Becauseobviously they've all got
different calls on your time andwanting your input, etc.
(10:40):
Is that a real I mean I imagineit must be a real challenge to
balance those?
So what have you learned overtime of keeping them all happy
and engaged?
Sarah Massey (10:49):
I mean a lot of it's communication, making sure
you're constantly updating them,making sure they're part of the
journey with you.
So again, it comes back tobeing really clear about what
your strategy is, what you'retrying to achieve, what your
commitments are, what your KPIsare, what your metrics are are,
and asking people what theirobjectives are.
So when we did the initialstrategy development, we also
went out and talked to all ofthe different stakeholders about
(11:10):
their objectives, what theywanted to get out of the event.
And you know you're going tohave to compromise to a certain
extent because not everybody isgoing to be able to meet their
individual objectives.
But it's how you then put thatinto the framework, how you then
measure and evaluate whatyou're doing and making sure
that at each point in timeyou're speaking to the
stakeholders the whole time,taking them on the journey with
you I know that's a bit of acliche, but it's true and making
(11:36):
sure that if there's somethingthat is going, you know,
potentially in a differentdirection or you're having to
pivot slightly from what you'redoing, it's just making sure
that you're letting them knowevery part of the way.
We're very lucky that on ourboard, so our board has got a
really good setup.
So we have representation fromWorld Rugby, from England Rugby
and from UK Sport.
We're a part-funded UK Sportevent, so we have representation
(11:58):
from UK Sport and arepresentation from somebody
who's been appointed by DCMSonto that board, and then we
have four independents who arebrilliant people and some
amazing, powerful women asleaders that are on our board as
our independents our chair,jill Whitehead, who yeah huge CV
and credibility that she bringsand she's just really driven
(12:19):
forward that board as thechairperson, and then we have an
EDI advisor on our board aswell.
So Kunle has joined us as ourEDI advisor, making sure that
we're always looking atdiversity, inclusion and equity
in everything that we do.
Sue Anstiss (12:32):
Excellent, and you mentioned that immovable
deadline, which is somethingthat's fabulous about big events
, but I guess for many peoplethat might also be slightly
intimidating.
So do you think it needs acertain personality type to want
to work with that pressure, andis that something early in your
career you recognised, youloved and you had the kind of
personality and the style foryeah, and I think, yeah, the
(12:57):
event industry is not foreverybody.
Sarah Massey (12:58):
I mean, some people don't like the ambiguity
that we work in and some peopleget more anxious about the fact
that it's an immovable deadlineand along the way there's so
many different milestones tomeet and I think people really
thrive in it and some people,yeah, it's really not for them.
And I think you work that outpretty early on when people are
working for you and you learn torecognize that.
(13:20):
So some of the questions wewould ask in interviews around
working in ambiguity, working topressurize deadlines, you know
working outside of office hours,working at weekends on
different events, you knowobserving different events,
going to different meetings.
So, yeah, we pretty much stresstest our interviewing approach
to make sure that we are arefinding those people that really
(13:41):
thrive.
And then you find those peoplewho maybe haven't worked in
events before who, once they do,thrive in it as well because
they they, they really like it.
And it's interesting because somany different events talk
about how many days you've gotto go to the event.
So you know we have a countdownclock in the office which
probably now 188, 187 days to goto the event and that can bring
(14:02):
out a certain anxiousness inpeople to think about.
I've only got that many days togo and somebody had said to me
that dame katherine granger, sheuh went to talk to the
birmingham commonwealth gamesorganization back in 2022 and
talked about the fact that, asan elite athlete, she would be
counting up to when thecompetition was not down and she
would talk about the fact thatit was so many days of that you
(14:24):
can improve, that you can getbetter days of opportunity till
you get to your race or yourevent.
So we've adopted that.
Um.
Katherine granger came to speakto or we got her to do a little
video piece for us, um, justprior to our christmas party
last year, where she came on andtalked about the fact that you
can be a count-upper or acount-downer, but the
count-uppers are looking at daysof opportunity and improvement
(14:45):
to get there and count-downersare looking at how many days
we've got to go.
So it's quite a nice approachthat we adopted from her.
Sue Anstiss (14:52):
I love that.
I love that.
Yeah, just switching it, isn'tit Reframing it?
And it's suddenly so much morepowerful.
You're obviously managingglobal sports events requires
strong leadership.
So I wonder how you'd describeyour leadership style.
I feel like I've known youobviously known you for a long
time, as an individual, as awoman and a friend, but in terms
(15:12):
of your leadership style, howwould your team describe you?
How do you feel your leadershipstyle has evolved?
Sarah Massey (15:18):
Yeah, it's evolved a lot.
I mean, I would say that peoplewould talk about me as being
very driven.
I have a purpose, I knowexactly what we're trying to
achieve and I think that comeswith 30 years of experience of
doing it.
You, you know what's importantand you know what needs to be
done, and you also know thatwhen some things come across
your desk, it's okay.
You know, we know that's goingto play out, don't worry, it's
(15:39):
going to be okay.
So I think I think they wouldsay that I lead with a lot of
conviction, drive, purpose.
I'm also passionate about theEDI we have in our organisation.
So, from a cultural point ofview, making sure that we are
fostering that culture ofbelonging and of inclusivity and
, in particular, with what we'redoing at the moment, we are
being unapologetic about thefact that this is all about the
(16:02):
promotion of women and girls andproviding opportunities for
women and girls in everythingthat we're doing across the
board within the organization.
I also lead with um.
I'm very willing to get myhands dirty, so happy to dive in
and do as well as support andguide those around me.
So, yeah, that that would bewhere my I think people would
describe my focus in terms ofhow I'm leading this
(16:24):
organization.
Sue Anstiss (16:29):
Obviously, this is a very female focused event,
being that it's a women's rugbyworld cup too, but have you
faced any gender challenges,gender related challenges in
your career within sport overthe years?
Has that happened veryregularly or happened at all?
Sarah Massey (16:39):
I mean not really.
I think the challenge is and Ithink you know I've had this
conversation before we, when westarted out 30 years ago, there
were very few women in theindustry at all and as we sort
of moved up through theindustries, we just sort of
accepted that that's the way itwas.
So I have never overtly feltnecessarily any gender
(16:59):
inequality or discrimination,but I know it existed because we
know how it used to be backthen.
I just think that we acceptedit, got on, kept our heads down,
worked hard, took theopportunities that we were
granted and we were really luckythat we, you know, fortunate
that we rose through that andnow we're in senior leadership
positions, hopefully now beingrole models for others, coming
(17:21):
along and making sure that weare calling out things, that we
see back on, things that we see,which we, you know, which we do
on a constant basis, because wenow know how important it is to
do that.
So I always feel slightly badsaying no, I haven't really
experienced it in my career.
I know I probably did as I said, but not maybe maybe called it
(17:41):
out, so it didn't really affectme.
But I've no, I haven't really,and I think I've always been
fortunate that the people thatI've worked for have been
looking at gender equality,looking at diversity of gender
within their organizations andand there's certain people who,
I would say, absolutely went outof their way for me to make
sure that that was the case andthat probably helped me, from a
(18:03):
confidence and leadership pointof view, to to be able to then
know that I could go on and leadorganizations and and be role
model for others and before youtook on this role at World Rugby
, you were CEO of the WorldAthletics Championships, oregon
2022, so it was obviously ahugely successful event.
Sue Anstiss (18:21):
But what was the experience like for you as a
British woman, especiallyleading an event in the US,
albeit it was different in 22 towhere it is today, but but
still a very differentenvironment yeah, there's no
getting around the fact it was.
Sarah Massey (18:34):
It was tough.
We moved the family out there.
We were supposed to be therefor two years, which fitted
really well with our daughter'sschooling.
Obviously, because of Covid,the event got put back a year,
so it became three years and theorganization that was set up.
There was a very separateorganizing committee that was
funded by Oregon StateGovernment, as well as
(18:55):
commercial partnerships andothers, and essentially I was
solely responsible for makingsure that that event came in on
budget.
It came in on time and it was ahuge success and I really felt
that pressure every single day.
It was still the same.
You know, building a teamstarted from one or two people
when I first got there and wethen built the team up, worked
with lots of differentstakeholders out there, of which
(19:16):
I didn't have any knowledge orexperience of working with those
people before.
You know, and you work in thesports industry, you always come
across different people youmight have worked with or come
across before.
That was all totally, totallynew.
So, yeah, it was really tough,very stressful, very pressurized
.
Accountability was really high,but I approached it the same as
I did with anything else.
You know, we set a strategy, wehad a set of goals, we had a
(19:39):
board, we took everybody alongwith us, we made sure we were
communicating with people at allstages, but then COVID came
along and everything halted.
So that was also an interestingsituation to be in.
Again, as a female, as aforeigner, I think I felt the
whole way through that the buckstopped with me.
So if, if anything had happened, it really would have been on
(20:00):
my shoulders.
Thankfully, the event was, asyou had a really good, you know,
really big success.
We work really closely with theUSA track and field team and the
University of Oregon andeverybody was the whole
community in in that place in inEugene where it was held was
totally passionate about makingsure this was a great event and
and it and it clearly was anddid a lot about making sure this
was a great event and and itand it clearly was and did a lot
for US track and field acrossthe country and raised the
(20:22):
profile and brought in new fansand new followers.
But yeah, was it was a verydifficult three years and you
say I do this all the time, so Imust have got used to it.
When this role came along, itwas one of those roles I had to
think very carefully about.
Was it going to be the sameaccountability, same pressure?
And I looked at it and itreally within a couple of weeks
(20:45):
of interviewing and then beingoffered the job.
It was a bit of a no-brainer,really.
Who wouldn't want to work inone of the biggest women's
sports events across the globein 2025?
Sue Anstiss (20:54):
Yeah, in your home nation.
And did you ever feel that youmight leave the Oregon role?
Because it's interesting thatyou look across these many major
events of people that areleaving them, stepping aside,
stepping down, being moved on,et cetera, in mid-term as it
were, and it's almost like Iguess I look at you and all that
happened out there.
It wouldn't have beensurprising almost if you said
(21:16):
you know hands up.
Sarah Massey (21:24):
That's it enough.
Enough, almost so.
What was it that kept you goingto see the end of that contract
?
Uh, did cross my mind multipletimes, I'm sure I have to be
honest.
Yeah, um, I think that's justme sheer determination not to,
not to want to fail and not towant to see it through.
I felt responsibility to theteam that we'd recruited out
there, felt a responsibility tothe sport I'm passionate about.
I felt a responsibility toworld athletics, obviously as
(21:44):
the international federation,that that I could continue and
do that role.
So, yeah, did cross my mind,but I think dogged determination
and tenacity was, was probablywhat, what kept me there.
Uh, knowing that we couldsucceed in the end.
Sue Anstiss (21:58):
Yeah, and so you did.
And clearly the fans are suchan important consideration.
You mentioned that in terms ofOregon, but when it comes to
successful major events.
So, looking back, what are thegreat sort of fan experiences
that you've witnessed at theevents that you've worked?
Sarah Massey (22:14):
on, I think, ones that put the fans at the heart
of everything.
So events that have reallyresearched who's going to be
there and what they are actuallylooking for.
Knowing your audience I mean, Iknow that again, it's a bit of
a cliche, but people whounderstand their audience can
then provide exactly theexperience that is needed.
And obviously you're going toget a range of audiences at each
different event.
(22:34):
It's not one size fits all, butit is is really, really
important.
So we've just done a study now,um, of all our ticket purchases
I've already purchased for thefor the women's rugby world cup.
We've just gone out to themthis week to ask them a series
of questions to make sure thatwe can make sure that we are
interpreting what they want intoour fan experience across the
(22:55):
eight different venues.
So sports do it really wellwhere they understand their
audience and they provide what'sneeded for them.
Sue Anstiss (23:02):
You and I were both at the Stoop last Friday for
the Friday night game ofHarlequins versus Bristol Bears
in the PWR and it certainly feltfor me like a very different
experience to any men's rugbygames I've attended there in the
evenings.
It was the first Friday nightgame they had there, wasn't it?
Do you think that male andfemale fans do approach their
fandom differently?
Is that what you're findingfrom the research?
Sarah Massey (23:24):
Yeah, definitely the female fans are looking for
something very different.
They're looking for more of afamily day out.
They're looking for more of animmersive experience.
They're looking for more of anunderstanding of what the sport
they're watching is.
They're looking to to know theplayers.
I mean, that's that, that'sreally what it is.
They're really looking tounderstand who those stars are,
(23:45):
why they want to follow them.
I mean, you could see that onfriday night, even with the,
even with the cheers that werecoming out when the players were
being announced.
It's so important and obviouslyhaving alona there helped a
massive amount.
But I mean, you just saw at theend the crowds that waited
around the entire, the entirefour sides of the pitch waited
for her to extraordinary.
(24:06):
Go down and say and the otherplayers as well.
You're absolutely right.
Sue Anstiss (24:09):
so there's definitely that alona mara
effect, but absolutely thisgroup that I was with of of
young women just wanted to seesarah burn, wanted to see simi
pam.
There was just so many athletescoming by that they were
waiting for it was amazing, yeah.
Sarah Massey (24:21):
And they stayed there for ages.
I mean, they were there for along time afterwards.
And I think that's the beautyand we always talk about it,
don't we of the female athletesis they're willing to promote
their sums.
They've got great personalitiesand they've got great
storytelling, wasn't it afterthe Paris Olympics, all of the
research showed that the mostfollowers, social following, was
for female athletes, not maleathletes, because they want to
(24:43):
tell their stories and people,and females and males alike,
want to follow them and listento them and hear what they've
got to say.
Really important.
Sue Anstiss (24:50):
So, talking more about the Women's Rugby World
Cup, I mean what a year it'sgoing to be.
It just feels every week aswe're moving, we're building.
Now we're not counting down,we're building up to it, but can
you give us a bit of anoverview of where you are right
now with preparations?
Sarah Massey (25:04):
Yeah.
So obviously moving into theyear of operation gives it a
whole new focus, but we aretracking really well ahead on
our preparations I mean theticket sales have been
unprecedented.
Ahead on our preparations.
I mean the ticket sales havebeen unprecedented sold more
tickets over 220,000 ticketsthan any previous Women's Rugby
(25:27):
World Cup and more than prettymuch many major sports events on
the women's side and the men'sside.
So interest and momentum hasjust been incredible over the
last few months.
It really has.
I think we've really capturedthe nation in terms of what this
is going to be and how big it'sgoing to be.
And it's not that we weren'tambitious on our ticket sales to
begin with.
So when people say, oh, haveyou sold more than you thought
you would, it's not that we'vesold more than we thought we
(25:47):
would because we've had bigambitions to pack the stands.
That's been one of our mantrasfrom the very out the stands
from an atmosphere andperspective and making sure it
looks great on TV and makingsure the fans have got a
brilliant experience.
But we've probably sold moretickets than we expected to by
this stage.
I think women's eventstraditionally have been quite
late in terms of their salesprocess because there isn't an
(26:09):
appointment to view, becausepeople didn't probably know the
Rugby World Cup was coming upthis year in the UK.
So we expected the tickets tocome on, probably later than
they.
They did, but they haven't,which is great.
So we're now in a situation weknow people want to buy tickets,
we know we'll put more ticketsout and we know that they will
buy.
And I think what we've also doneis captured the hearts and
minds of the local hostlocations as well.
(26:32):
I mean the eight differentcities that we're going to put
massive amount of force behindwhat they're doing as well.
They're deeply passionate.
Their communities are gettingbehind it and the more that we
raise awareness and momentumaround each of those host
locations, the more people wantto be part of it's, kind of a
form of civic pride.
This is coming to their city.
They want to be part of it.
(26:52):
They want to showcase whattheir city has to offer.
And then, in terms ofoperational preparations, I mean
it's all around the eightdifferent host locations and
cities so busy with all of thehost venue operational planning
as well as the city planning.
So, as I said, we're bringingthose cities to life with fan
zones and other activities thatwill be going on.
So getting those communitiesbehind what we're doing is
(27:14):
really important.
Sue Anstiss (27:16):
And we hear so much , don't we, about the impact of
a Lionesses win with a homeEuros in 2022.
So do you feel we're going tosee a similar impact around the
Women's Rugby World Cup?
Sarah Massey (27:26):
Yes, we do, and I think it's our job is to put on
the most amazing, biggest RugbyWorld Cup that we can.
There's a global celebration ofwomen's rugby and one that is a
generational moment for thesport.
We only come around once everyfour years, so we know we have
to make the absolute most ofwhat we can do to promote the
(27:48):
event both on and off the pitch,because when we leave town as a
Rugby World Cup we want to makesure that we are leaving a
legacy and leaving the momentumfrom a domestic legacy point of
view and obviously from a pwrleague point of view as well.
So we need to try and do asmuch as we can to raise that
awareness and visibility, butmake sure that then there's
(28:09):
other things happening along theway, which obviously england
rugby and the pwr are alreadydoing to continue that impact
and legacy in England.
And then from a World Rugbypoint of view, they're obviously
looking at the legacy that thatwill then have globally.
So there's two sort of legacyprograms that are sitting
alongside each other one, theImpact 25 program, which is led
(28:30):
by the RFU.
So that's all about domesticlegacy increasing participation,
improving facilities, gettingmore officials and coaches, and
then, from a world rugbyperspective, it's an it's called
the impact beyond program.
So looking at how we can makesure we're maintaining that
legacy from a global perspectiveacross the world through
various different programs.
There's a new new participationprogram called rugby rising,
(28:53):
which is aimed at younger agegroup of girls getting involved
globally.
We work with Child Fund, oursocial impact partner.
They're looking at ways toimprove and enrich the lives of
girls across the globe throughtheir programs in community
rugby in many differentcountries that you would not
expect to necessarily find rugbyand they're doing amazing work.
So there's a whole host ofprograms and initiatives both
(29:17):
domestically and internationallyto continue the legacy of what
we're doing.
And then we obviously have alegacy that we are looking at
from a tournament perspective aswell, mainly based around
opportunities for women andgirls.
So by providing theopportunities that we are across
a whole load of differentprograms, then how can we make
sure that those women and girls,particularly from diverse
(29:38):
communities and underrepresentedgroups, have a place in the
sports industry in the future?
Sue Anstiss (29:43):
It's interesting, isn't it, that it's not that
working in partnership with theHome Nation, because I did see
some fantastic stuff I thinkAlex Teasdale shared last week
around the first tranche ofImpact 2025 and the work they
were doing in communities, andit's just so powerful, isn't it?
So you're not as involved, butdo you feel the clubs on the
ground will be ready, hopefully,for this influx of young women
(30:04):
that discover the game for thefirst time this autumn?
Sarah Massey (30:11):
So Impact 2025 programme, as you say, is driven
by the RFU.
It's separate funding throughSport England for them to
deliver against a set of metricswhich they've agreed with Sport
England aimed at participationand the increase of coaches and
officials around the country.
And that's one of the reasonsthat they're doing it is to make
sure that they're going intothose community clubs and making
sure that the facilities arethere, that they are a sense of,
they're instilling a sense ofbelonging and inclusivity within
those clubs so that when thewomen and girls do join that
(30:33):
they feel that's a place wherethey belong and they can find
their community within that clubexcellent we talk about funding
, and funding is obviously soimportant, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss (30:41):
so is this tournament funded to the same
level as the men's rugby worldcup?
Sarah Massey (30:46):
uh, I mean the budgets are very different
between the men's rugby worldcup and the women's rugby world
cup.
Yes, uh is that a no, they're.
They're very different.
It's a very different model.
I mean we're looking at thefact that we've had huge
investment by World Rugby intothis Women's Rugby World Cup.
So, as I said before, we're aUK sport funded event, so
(31:09):
there's funding coming that waythrough GCMS.
The rest of the money is raisedthrough revenue through
commercial sponsorships andpartnerships, media rights and
then the investment by WorldRugby directly into our pnl for
the women's rugby world cup.
So it it's certainly thebiggest investment made into a
men's rugby world cup so far.
Uh, world rugby totallyunderstand and know that that
(31:30):
the future of the women's gameis is by putting on these big,
huge pinnacle events that reallydrive visibility and awareness
for future fan growth and futureparticipation.
So it's part of the strategicplan at World Rugby.
It's one of the key pillarsdriving women's rugby and
driving Women's Rugby World Cupas a key part of the strategy.
So very much front of mind foreverybody within World Rugby to
(31:53):
push this and make sure we'reputting on the best event we can
.
Sue Anstiss (31:56):
And where do you see it going beyond this next 10
years, 20 years?
Where do you think the Women'sRugby World Cup could get to?
Sarah Massey (32:03):
So we always talk about this because we well,
world Rugby have obviously settheir Rugby World Cups for the
future.
So we know exactly where theRugby World Cup is going to be
in 29th for the women inAustralia, and then obviously on
to America four years later andwe've always talked about it
being a step change.
So we know that there's no.
You know it wasn't possible toput on a men's rugby world cup
(32:23):
sized rugby world cup in 2025.
But what we've done is bereally intentional about the
standards that we've increasedfor this event based on previous
world cups, and then what theteam will do in Australia is
they will then step on again thestandards to step up, and again
they'll be stepped up inamerica as well.
So we are hoping that withinthis cycle, we are getting to
(32:45):
the stage where we are reachingthe standards that are put on
for a men's rugby world cup, sothere can be can be equality, um
, and that that's the hope andthat's why the new model that
world rugby have implemented fortheir events.
So world rugby now own alltheir rugby world cups.
It's not bid out to a countryand they form their own LOC.
(33:06):
World Rugby are now in controlof the entire organisation and
operation of their Rugby WorldCups, which is why they then.
The LOC that I'm responsiblefor leading is part of World
Rugby.
I work for World Rugby andbecause of that they're in
control of their own destiny, socan do the the stepping up at
each stage into each particularrugby world cup.
Sue Anstiss (33:26):
And when you say improving standards, without
going into all detail, but butstandards of what?
What do you mean by improvingstandards?
Sarah Massey (33:33):
so one of the key things we've done for this rugby
world cup from a player's pointof view is, in previous world
cups, facilities have beenshared, so teams would have had
to have shared hotels, sharedteam bases, share facilities.
What we've done is every singleteam that comes to this event
will have their own team base.
So every team has a team hotel,an outdoor training pitch, an
(33:54):
indoor training pitch, a gym anda swimming pool that they can
have access to and they're nothaving to share it with other
teams, which, coming out of therugby world cup last time around
, was one of the key things thatthe teams knew that that was
that was going to be a massivecontributor to how they played
and their performance and howthey excel on the pitch.
So we have one of our key partsof our strategies about
(34:14):
delivering high standards, andit's very much driven around
what we're providing for theplayers so that they have the
best environment and the bestthe best conditions that they
can have, so that they have thebest environment and the best
the best conditions that theycan have so that they can thrive
on the pitch and play the bestcompelling action and matches
that they can.
Other areas up, uppingstandards for players,
particularly around our pitches.
So making sure that all ourpitches, the training pitches,
(34:35):
are of our really high standard,high standard, same same as the
men's would do, and again, it'sjust the facilities and
services that we'll be providingaround medical, around some of
the player welfare will all beup to the same standards as the
men's.
Sue Anstiss (34:49):
And in terms of that, broadcast and fans etc.
What might be different?
If you're talking to some fansnow and saying what they might
expect from this year'stournament, how different might
it look to what they've seen inthe past?
Sarah Massey (35:02):
So they'll see much bigger stadiums with many
more people in them, so crowdsare.
We've we've broken records interms of crowds and tickets sold
than previous rugby world cups.
I think fans will see a greatatmosphere.
They'll have a great fanexperience.
Um, it'll be very different towhat they might experience at a
twickenham or a bristol when's amen's match.
(35:22):
But that's obviously againtaking account of who our
audience and what we'reexpecting our audience to be and
what they are expecting to havethere.
I mean, one of our mantras rightfrom the beginning, as I said,
is to pack the stands.
That's going to create anincredible atmosphere.
For a start, we will have lotsof fan experience facing
experiences out on theconcourses.
(35:43):
There'll be fan zones withinthe cities and then fan plazas
within each individual venue aswell, and that'll have lots of
different interaction.
We're bringing in a whole newvision into our fan experience
and our whole fan experiencevision.
It's all about creating rockstars.
It's all about turning it up.
So making sure that music andentertainment really are are the
(36:04):
keystone of what we're doing.
So, yeah, you're going to seelots of loud and bold and proud
fan experience across all of ourvenues Fantastic.
Sue Anstiss (36:14):
I'm excited.
I was excited anyway.
I bought a lot of tickets, butI'm very excited now.
And if you could look back in afew years time and see one
major milestone that came from atournament, what would you like
that to be?
What might that be?
Sarah Massey (36:27):
I think that we have shown that rugby is a sport
for everybody, that the DNA ofrugby is inherently all about
all shapes and sizes.
Anybody can play.
You can find your place placein rugby, whether that's on the
field or off the field.
So I think this is going to bea real turning point for
(36:47):
promoting rugby as a sport, aplace of belonging for people to
be part of.
We will have created lots ofnew fans and I think that we
will really have shown thatthere really is incredible value
in women's sport.
I think that's one of the thingswe really want to show by going
across the country.
You know it's bold.
We're going to eight differentvenues.
We're in every region of thecountry.
(37:08):
We're trying to create thosepacked out stands and great
atmospheres in every single oneof them that's.
You know that's hard, there's alot to do there, but I think if
we do that and we do that inthe sport of rugby, we will have
shown that there is absolutetrue value in women's sport and
we will have done that throughthe DNA of rugby and showcasing
(37:28):
exactly what it has to offer forso many different types of
people.
Sue Anstiss (37:31):
I'd like to finish, if I can, by talking a bit more
about gender balance in sportsleadership.
While you're working at theInternational Federations in
Tennis and Hockey, I know youhelped create gender equality
campaigns, so can you perhapstell us a little bit more about
that work?
Sarah Massey (37:46):
Yeah, it was something that I and again
working in the InternationalFederation world, and it was
when, really, the IOC were alsocoming out with some of their
gender equality strategies andhow federations could put in and
improve governance aroundbringing more women,
particularly into theirleadership positions on their
executive boards, through thatside, but also how because the
(38:09):
International Federation isgenerally obviously a mixed
gender in terms of the sportsthey're promoting how could they
make sure that the mediacoverage was equal, that the
photographs that they wereputting out, anything they were
putting out in the media, wasvery balanced from a gender
point of view, even if it wasjust publications or articles
you'd see being produced, evenif it was just internal
documents and the pictures wouldall be of male athletes, it was
very much putting a campaign inplace.
(38:30):
I mean, I guess my marketingbackground probably brings that
through, but I always think thatif you have a campaign to hang
something on, it gives people aplatform to, to look to and to
reach to, and and it also justgives it a chance to then get it
out much more into the media,out on, out on social and talk
to it.
So so, within the hockeyfederation we had a campaign,
which was equally amazing.
(38:50):
I mean, we were really lucky inhockey because there are so
many nations in hockey thatactually in some countries like
argentina, the women's game isactually more popular than the
men's games.
Quite spread and same inholland is very similar male and
female exposure for both themale and female sports.
So hockey was one of those.
Yeah, we, we did a wholepromotion around equally amazing
.
And whilst we felt that it wasequally amazing from a
(39:12):
participation point of view, wealso need to be equally amazing
when it came to representationon boards, when it came to
representation and leadershipwithin nations, and that we were
constantly promoting and makingsure that that campaign ran.
And similarly with tennis, thecampaign is about advantage, all
so making sure that bothgenders and now they've expanded
(39:33):
that to look at all forms ofdiversity as well and advantage
to everybody that it needs to beconsidered equal.
And again, once you have acampaign around it and Billie
Jean King got very behind it andstarted to talk about it it
just gives a focal point.
I think I'm a big believer incampaigns and how you can then
drive that through a reallyfocused and singular message.
Sue Anstiss (39:54):
And what progress have you seen across?
As I look back across those 30years, what progress have you
seen, and not just on the boardroles, but in those senior roles
within sports management,across the organisations you've
worked within?
Sarah Massey (40:06):
Yeah, I mean we're seeing it.
I mean I wouldn't say thatwe've solved it.
We know still there's an awfullot of work to do with ensuring
that there are still womencoming through at all levels to
take senior positions inorganisations, but then senior
positions as well on on boards.
So I would say seeing massivestep forwards and the
(40:26):
conversations that we now havearound it are much more open.
There's way more people havingthose conversations.
I mean what you and kate haveachieved with the women's sport
collective is is massive andthat has massively helped so
many people in in the industry,both with information, guidance
and support, but also how tohave those conversations, how to
meet more people, and that hasmassively helped so many people
in the industry, both withinformation, guidance and
support, but also how to havethose conversations, how to meet
(40:46):
more people as role models andmentors to then go, okay, well,
I can do that as well.
How can I get there?
What's the best way to do it?
So I think that network that'sbeen created has made a huge
difference, particularly in thiscountry.
I suppose other countries youknow probably not quite as
advanced as here, but seenmassive changes here.
But, as I say, still quite abit of work to do to make sure
(41:09):
that continues, making sure thatwe're still having those
conversations and moving forward.
Sue Anstiss (41:14):
And just finally, if you could go back to when we
were both young graduatesleaving Loughborough University
and you could give your youngerself there some advice for
getting started out in the field, what kind of what would you
say to her today?
Sarah Massey (41:26):
I know, looking back, I probably would be
intimidated in going to askpeople for help or approaching
someone to be a mentor, or evenjust asking someone for a coffee
to to ask them how I mightprogress and the sorts of people
I might meet or might be ableto help me on my journey.
I think we just found our ownway.
I don't know how we quite didit.
I think it was particularlyintentional, but very fortunate
(41:47):
to have found the way through.
That we did.
I would say to anybody and backto my younger self is just take
all the opportunities that youcan.
I feel like that's what I did.
You know, don't let anyonestand in your way.
You have to be bold and youhave to be a bit tenacious to
get there.
But at the same time, otherpeople like people to reach out
to you and ask for help, ask forsupport, ask for guidance.
(42:09):
Be very clear about what you'relooking for and why you want it
.
But people are there willing tohelp, particularly women in
senior positions.
Do not in any way feelintimidated.
Just just reach out.
And and probably probablythroughout my career and it's an
and it's you know, we all sayit, but imposter syndrome is a
real thing, but it's trying tounderstand that we are all here
(42:30):
because we deserve to be here.
We're all here for a reason,and anything that we can do to
help that younger generationcome through then, then, then,
then that's what everybody isstriving to do.
We, our job is to now help theyounger generation come through
and have greater representation,particularly from
underrepresented groups, in thesports industry in the future.
Sue Anstiss (42:53):
I'm sure from that you can tell just how excited I
am about the Women's Rugby WorldCup this year and also what a
fan I am of the great work thatSarah is doing across sport.
If you'd like to hear from morefemale trailblazers from sport,
there are over 200 episodes ofthe Game Changers that are all
free to listen to on podcastplatforms or from our website at
(43:16):
fearlesswomencouk.
Other guests include eliteathletes, coaches, entrepreneurs
, sports scientists, academics,broadcasters, journalists and
CEOs all women who are changingthe game in sport.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
can also find out more about theWomen's Sport Collective, which
(43:37):
Sarah talked about at the endof our conversation.
It's a free, inclusivecommunity for all women working
in sport and we now have over10,000 members across the world,
so please do come and join us.
The whole of my book Game On theUnstoppable Rise of Women's
Sport is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Every episode of Series 11 isme reading a chapter of the book
(43:59):
.
Thanks again to Sport Englandfor backing the Game Changers
and the Women's Sport Collectivewith a National Lottery Award,
and also thanks to Sam Walker atwhat Goes On Media, who does
such a brilliant job as ourexecutive producer.
Thank you also to my lovelycolleague at Fearless Women,
Kate Hannan.
The Game Changers is availableon all podcast platforms, so
(44:24):
please do follow it now and youwon't miss out on future
episodes.
Come and say hello on socialmedia, where you'll find me on
LinkedIn and Instagram at SueAnstis, the Game Changers
fearless women in sport.
Hello and welcome to the Game Changers.
I'm Sue Anstiss, and this isthe podcast where you'll hear
from trailblazing women in sportwho are knocking down the
barriers and challenging thestatus quo for women and girls
everywhere.
What can we learn from theirjourneys as we explore key
issues around equality in sportand beyond?
I'd like to start with a bigthank you to our partners, Sport
(00:24):
England, who support the GameChangers podcast through a
National Lottery Award.
My guest today is Sarah Massey,the Managing Director of the
Women's Rugby World Cup 2025,who's had a much celebrated
career leading majorinternational sporting events
for over 30 years.
(00:45):
Before taking the significantrole with world rugby, Sarah was
CEO of the World AthleticsChampionship, Oregon 22, where
she led an event that set newbenchmarks in broadcast reach,
digital engagement and fanexperience.
Sarah's extensive careerincludes senior roles at the
International Hockey Federationand the International Tennis
(01:06):
Federation, along withleadership at a wide range of
high-profile international andmulti-sports events and
organisations.
As Managing Director for theWomen's Rugby World Cup 2025,
Sarah aims to deliver atournament that not only
showcases brilliantinternational rugby showcases
brilliant international rugbybut also serves as a catalyst
(01:27):
for increasing the sport'srelevance and accessibility to
new audiences, particularlywomen and girls.
So, Sarah, let's start by goingback to Loughborough University
, which is where we first met.
What were you studying thereand, I guess, what were your
hopes at that time for what youmight do in the future?
Thanks, so yeah.
Sarah Massey (01:49):
Thanks, so yeah, I studied.
I actually did a straightmanagement degree at
Loughborough.
So management science.
I think I'd always longed to doa sports science degree.
So I decided after the firstyear that I might change.
But I think you realise that,actually changing courses and
then starting all over again.
So I was one of thoseLoughborough University students
who wasn't dressed in purpleviolet the entire time but
wished I probably had been.
But actually, looking back,just really pleased now I did a
(02:10):
straight management degree,majored in marketing and just
got a very good breadth of ofbusiness and commercial acumen
as a result.
So I think that stood me ingood stead.
I think I always knew I wantedto work in sport.
Always knew I wanted to work ineither the management or
marketing of sport.
So actually stayed on atLoughborough and did a master's
degree bizarrely in rugby,looking at how you could
(02:32):
translate some of the marketingand management tools and
practices from business intorugby union club.
So traveled the world doingthat project for a year's
master's, then wrote up a yeah,a big dissertation on that.
So yeah, very early step intorugby actually, as it as it
turns out.
Sue Anstiss (02:50):
I love that.
The first question, and Ididn't know that I should have
known that about you, but Ididn't.
I didn't realize that yourmaster's focused on that.
And what was your sport at thetime?
Did you?
Were you playing sport whileyou're at Loughborough?
Sarah Massey (03:00):
Yeah, so I was a hockey player and a squash
player, um, and also did lots ofrunning and actually that's
took up running actually moreseriously once I'd actually left
Loughborough, so wasn'tactually part of the track team
there, but yeah, very much, verymuch then got into running when
I, when I left and towards thelatter end of being at
Loughborough, and that's uh,yeah, that's where I focused my
time and energy.
(03:20):
Now in sport is, uh, is inrunning.
That's my, that's my passionand my love.
Sue Anstiss (03:24):
It's so good to hear, isn't it?
And you obviously have workedwe'll come on to talk about that
in a moment but you've workedin hockey and other elements of
those sports as well too.
But you've had this incrediblecareer, as I mentioned, in
instruction across multiplesports events and organisations.
But where did it all begin?
So, that kind of coming out ofuniversity, what was the first
role that you took?
Sarah Massey (03:41):
so I think because I'd done my master's project in
rugby, I'd obviously got toknow quite a few people that
worked in the sport and therewas an opportunity for a
marketing coordinator at therugby football union, say
bizarrely based at twickenham inan office just across the road
from where we are now, and did acouple of years with them in
the marketing department.
It was at the time where rugbywas literally just turning
(04:02):
professional, so still very muchan amateur sport at that point.
Um, but really looking aftermost, looking after the sponsors
and hospitality and some of thedebentures that were being sold
when they first sold thebenches for the first, the first
refurbishment of the stand thatthey had at Twickenham.
So yeah, sort of cut my teethin rugby right from the very
beginning in a in a marketingrole and loved it then when
(04:24):
actually carried on in rugby.
In the beginning part of mycareer I left there to work on
an agency that was dealing withor managing and implementing the
super 10 competition back thenI know that's now the super
series much, much more advancedand went out to South Africa,
worked out there, worked the1995 rugby world cup in South
Africa so pivotal, obviouslywith Nelson Mandela and Francois
(04:46):
Pienaar, one of the probably,even despite everything I've
done in my career still probablythe moment that still brings me
out in.
Yeah, just an incredible momentand one that very few people
have got the opportunity toexperience.
But, yeah, I was lucky enoughto be there at the final.
So, yeah, amazing.
Sue Anstiss (05:04):
That's incredible, isn't it?
And how does it feel being backat Twickenham?
Now, as you say, like 30 yearson, you've come back to
Twickenham.
I wonder how much has changedin the organisation in World
Rugby, especially, I guess, myinterest in terms of that gender
parity.
But does it feel like they'redifferent organisations to where
they were 30 years ago?
Sarah Massey (05:22):
Yeah, I mean very much so, and I don't think
there's actually anybody leftthere that I worked.
I worked with England rugby allthose all those years on.
Yeah, I mean very differentorganization.
I mean there was very few womenthat were working.
I mean no, no women really backthen in senior positions within
rugby, yeah, and very few of uswithin the organization as a
whole.
But I mean, again, it was itwas much smaller back then as
(05:43):
well.
We're talking 91 when I wasthere, so very much smaller in
terms of its commercialism.
As I said, it was very muchmore of a.
It was an amateur sport backthen, hadn't?
Sue Anstiss (05:53):
it was sort of the era that it was turning
professional, that's so excitingI guess incredible to see that
transition that you've seen andthen coming back into it.
You've obviously then gone onand we'll highlight some of
those as we go through, butyou've had this extraordinary
career working and leading theselarge scale international
events.
I wonder, when you come into anevent of that kind now, what's
the first thing you're planningand thinking about when you're
(06:15):
looking at a global sports eventas a CEO coming in, are there
key elements?
Sarah Massey (06:21):
I think the key for me has always been is what
your strategy is really,defining what you're trying to
achieve with the event.
I know lots of people talkabout, yeah, writing strategies,
leaving them on a shelf.
They all get dusty and you sortof dust them off every so often
and look what's in them.
It's always been really key forme to work out what that event
stands for, what the strategy is, what we're aiming to achieve,
and then setting a roadmap ofhow we go about doing it.
(06:42):
That's what I would always dogoing into a role like that.
I mean, obviously it's aboutgrowing audiences, it's about
increasing participation, butunless you have that hanging
together as one overarchingstrategy, then I think you don't
necessarily succeed as much asyou would do without one.
Sue Anstiss (07:00):
And obviously you keep coming back for more.
So you're clearly loving it andenjoying it, but what are the
elements of managing those majorevents that you most enjoy?
Sarah Massey (07:09):
I think when people say to me you know, what
do you bring?
What are you good at?
I think I have.
Yeah, I have become seeminglyexperienced quite a lot in
managing large, complex projectswith lots of different
stakeholders, with an immovabledeadline.
And I love that, becausethere's nothing better than
knowing you've got an end goalin sight, you've got fixed
(07:31):
deadline.
Everything has to be done tomeet that.
And just dealing with all of thecomplexity and the various
different stakeholders along theway and building a team I mean,
when I started at Rugby WorldCup back in May 2023, that was
just me.
Obviously there was a lot ofpeople at world rugby who'd been
progressing the tournament upuntil then, but it was then me
opportunity to then build yourteam, build your senior team,
(07:53):
and then obviously they've thenstarted recruiting people from
there.
But just seeing it all cometogether, you can.
You can define your own ownpathway as well.
You can define what you wantyour culture to be.
You can really build it againaccording to the strategy that
you've built.
But you then build around thatwith every single different
element.
You're not inheriting reallyanything at all when you go into
(08:14):
one of those projects.
Sue Anstiss (08:15):
So interesting, isn't it.
I was going to ask you aboutthe team, because you've
obviously got some prettyincredible people within that
top senior team.
You say they're now recruitingothers too.
Is there a key, would you say,to building a strong event team,
especially when you're workinginternationally, you're going
kind of into, perhaps, a countryor a place that you haven't
worked before.
Is there any advice that youwould give to how you go about
(08:37):
recruiting?
Because obviously they're thekey, aren't they the key
foundation that that senior team?
Sarah Massey (08:42):
yeah, I mean obviously very different between
doing it in a country where youare more familiar with people's
CVs and backgrounds and whatthey've done before, than doing
it internationally, where it'svery much more difficult.
But I think you get used toknowing exactly what you want
from the roles that you'reyou're hiring.
That's the same.
I mean it's pretty much thesame sort of role you're hiring.
(09:02):
In each role, obviously,different people are going to
fit it, but you get to knowexactly what you're looking for
and what experience you want andalso just how you want the team
to work together.
So, looking at differentpersonalities that each person
in the senior team is going tobring and making sure that
you've got a really good mix ofbackgrounds, experiences,
diversity, lived and people thatyou know that can meet that.
(09:26):
But yeah, we've got a greatsenior team at the moment.
So we've got there's five of us.
We're all female, which isreally important to us, I think,
to make sure that we areshowing we're being role models
and making sure that we areshowing walking exactly what
we're saying and people quiteoften ask me about.
Was it intentional?
No, we didn't go out andrecruit a full senior team of of
(09:48):
women.
We employed, the best peoplefor the job and the best people
for the job that fitted what wewere looking for, um happened to
be those four other women, sowe have rebecca leach, um jemma
wiggs, amy bywater luttman andashwini rao, who just joined us
as well.
So, yeah, really, really,really strong team.
We work really closely together.
I've built up a really goodtrust and relationship and
loyalty between us as well, andeverybody's very clear on what
(10:11):
their individual role andresponsibility is, what they
have to deliver according to thestrategy and, yeah, we, we make
sure we keep together very muchas a team.
Sue Anstiss (10:19):
You mentioned stakeholders there.
I had, uh was thinking I wasgoing to ask you about that.
And in researching I wasthinking who are those
stakeholders?
And I was thinking I was goingto ask you about that.
And in researching it I wasthinking who are those
stakeholders?
And I was thinking, oh my good,international teams and the
nations and the sponsors and theregional hosts for this event
too, but also the broadcastersand government and the Home
Union.
So how do you balance Becauseobviously they've all got
different calls on your time andwanting your input, etc.
(10:40):
Is that a real I mean I imagineit must be a real challenge to
balance those?
So what have you learned overtime of keeping them all happy
and engaged?
Sarah Massey (10:49):
I mean a lot of it's communication, making sure
you're constantly updating them,making sure they're part of the
journey with you.
So again, it comes back tobeing really clear about what
your strategy is, what you'retrying to achieve, what your
commitments are, what your KPIsare, what your metrics are are,
and asking people what theirobjectives are.
So when we did the initialstrategy development, we also
went out and talked to all ofthe different stakeholders about
(11:10):
their objectives, what theywanted to get out of the event.
And you know you're going tohave to compromise to a certain
extent because not everybody isgoing to be able to meet their
individual objectives.
But it's how you then put thatinto the framework, how you then
measure and evaluate whatyou're doing and making sure
that at each point in timeyou're speaking to the
stakeholders the whole time,taking them on the journey with
you I know that's a bit of acliche, but it's true and making
(11:36):
sure that if there's somethingthat is going, you know,
potentially in a differentdirection or you're having to
pivot slightly from what you'redoing, it's just making sure
that you're letting them knowevery part of the way.
We're very lucky that on ourboard, so our board has got a
really good setup.
So we have representation fromWorld Rugby, from England Rugby
and from UK Sport.
We're a part-funded UK Sportevent, so we have representation
(11:58):
from UK Sport and arepresentation from somebody
who's been appointed by DCMSonto that board, and then we
have four independents who arebrilliant people and some
amazing, powerful women asleaders that are on our board as
our independents our chair,jill Whitehead, who yeah huge CV
and credibility that she bringsand she's just really driven
(12:19):
forward that board as thechairperson, and then we have an
EDI advisor on our board aswell.
So Kunle has joined us as ourEDI advisor, making sure that
we're always looking atdiversity, inclusion and equity
in everything that we do.
Sue Anstiss (12:32):
Excellent, and you mentioned that immovable
deadline, which is somethingthat's fabulous about big events
, but I guess for many peoplethat might also be slightly
intimidating.
So do you think it needs acertain personality type to want
to work with that pressure, andis that something early in your
career you recognised, youloved and you had the kind of
personality and the style foryeah, and I think, yeah, the
(12:57):
event industry is not foreverybody.
Sarah Massey (12:58):
I mean, some people don't like the ambiguity
that we work in and some peopleget more anxious about the fact
that it's an immovable deadlineand along the way there's so
many different milestones tomeet and I think people really
thrive in it and some people,yeah, it's really not for them.
And I think you work that outpretty early on when people are
working for you and you learn torecognize that.
(13:20):
So some of the questions wewould ask in interviews around
working in ambiguity, working topressurize deadlines, you know
working outside of office hours,working at weekends on
different events, you knowobserving different events,
going to different meetings.
So, yeah, we pretty much stresstest our interviewing approach
to make sure that we are arefinding those people that really
(13:41):
thrive.
And then you find those peoplewho maybe haven't worked in
events before who, once they do,thrive in it as well because
they they, they really like it.
And it's interesting because somany different events talk
about how many days you've gotto go to the event.
So you know we have a countdownclock in the office which
probably now 188, 187 days to goto the event and that can bring
(14:02):
out a certain anxiousness inpeople to think about.
I've only got that many days togo and somebody had said to me
that dame katherine granger, sheuh went to talk to the
birmingham commonwealth gamesorganization back in 2022 and
talked about the fact that, asan elite athlete, she would be
counting up to when thecompetition was not down and she
would talk about the fact thatit was so many days of that you
(14:24):
can improve, that you can getbetter days of opportunity till
you get to your race or yourevent.
So we've adopted that.
Um.
Katherine granger came to speakto or we got her to do a little
video piece for us, um, justprior to our christmas party
last year, where she came on andtalked about the fact that you
can be a count-upper or acount-downer, but the
count-uppers are looking at daysof opportunity and improvement
(14:45):
to get there and count-downersare looking at how many days
we've got to go.
So it's quite a nice approachthat we adopted from her.
Sue Anstiss (14:52):
I love that.
I love that.
Yeah, just switching it, isn'tit Reframing it?
And it's suddenly so much morepowerful.
You're obviously managingglobal sports events requires
strong leadership.
So I wonder how you'd describeyour leadership style.
I feel like I've known youobviously known you for a long
time, as an individual, as awoman and a friend, but in terms
(15:12):
of your leadership style, howwould your team describe you?
How do you feel your leadershipstyle has evolved?
Sarah Massey (15:18):
Yeah, it's evolved a lot.
I mean, I would say that peoplewould talk about me as being
very driven.
I have a purpose, I knowexactly what we're trying to
achieve and I think that comeswith 30 years of experience of
doing it.
You, you know what's importantand you know what needs to be
done, and you also know thatwhen some things come across
your desk, it's okay.
You know, we know that's goingto play out, don't worry, it's
(15:39):
going to be okay.
So I think I think they wouldsay that I lead with a lot of
conviction, drive, purpose.
I'm also passionate about theEDI we have in our organisation.
So, from a cultural point ofview, making sure that we are
fostering that culture ofbelonging and of inclusivity and
, in particular, with what we'redoing at the moment, we are
being unapologetic about thefact that this is all about the
(16:02):
promotion of women and girls andproviding opportunities for
women and girls in everythingthat we're doing across the
board within the organization.
I also lead with um.
I'm very willing to get myhands dirty, so happy to dive in
and do as well as support andguide those around me.
So, yeah, that that would bewhere my I think people would
describe my focus in terms ofhow I'm leading this
(16:24):
organization.
Sue Anstiss (16:29):
Obviously, this is a very female focused event,
being that it's a women's rugbyworld cup too, but have you
faced any gender challenges,gender related challenges in
your career within sport overthe years?
Has that happened veryregularly or happened at all?
Sarah Massey (16:39):
I mean not really.
I think the challenge is and Ithink you know I've had this
conversation before we, when westarted out 30 years ago, there
were very few women in theindustry at all and as we sort
of moved up through theindustries, we just sort of
accepted that that's the way itwas.
So I have never overtly feltnecessarily any gender
(16:59):
inequality or discrimination,but I know it existed because we
know how it used to be backthen.
I just think that we acceptedit, got on, kept our heads down,
worked hard, took theopportunities that we were
granted and we were really luckythat we, you know, fortunate
that we rose through that andnow we're in senior leadership
positions, hopefully now beingrole models for others, coming
(17:21):
along and making sure that weare calling out things, that we
see back on, things that we see,which we, you know, which we do
on a constant basis, because wenow know how important it is to
do that.
So I always feel slightly badsaying no, I haven't really
experienced it in my career.
I know I probably did as I said, but not maybe maybe called it
(17:41):
out, so it didn't really affectme.
But I've no, I haven't really,and I think I've always been
fortunate that the people thatI've worked for have been
looking at gender equality,looking at diversity of gender
within their organizations andand there's certain people who,
I would say, absolutely went outof their way for me to make
sure that that was the case andthat probably helped me, from a
(18:03):
confidence and leadership pointof view, to to be able to then
know that I could go on and leadorganizations and and be role
model for others and before youtook on this role at World Rugby
, you were CEO of the WorldAthletics Championships, oregon
2022, so it was obviously ahugely successful event.
Sue Anstiss (18:21):
But what was the experience like for you as a
British woman, especiallyleading an event in the US,
albeit it was different in 22 towhere it is today, but but
still a very differentenvironment yeah, there's no
getting around the fact it was.
Sarah Massey (18:34):
It was tough.
We moved the family out there.
We were supposed to be therefor two years, which fitted
really well with our daughter'sschooling.
Obviously, because of Covid,the event got put back a year,
so it became three years and theorganization that was set up.
There was a very separateorganizing committee that was
funded by Oregon StateGovernment, as well as
(18:55):
commercial partnerships andothers, and essentially I was
solely responsible for makingsure that that event came in on
budget.
It came in on time and it was ahuge success and I really felt
that pressure every single day.
It was still the same.
You know, building a teamstarted from one or two people
when I first got there and wethen built the team up, worked
with lots of differentstakeholders out there, of which
(19:16):
I didn't have any knowledge orexperience of working with those
people before.
You know, and you work in thesports industry, you always come
across different people youmight have worked with or come
across before.
That was all totally, totallynew.
So, yeah, it was really tough,very stressful, very pressurized
.
Accountability was really high,but I approached it the same as
I did with anything else.
You know, we set a strategy, wehad a set of goals, we had a
(19:39):
board, we took everybody alongwith us, we made sure we were
communicating with people at allstages, but then COVID came
along and everything halted.
So that was also an interestingsituation to be in.
Again, as a female, as aforeigner, I think I felt the
whole way through that the buckstopped with me.
So if, if anything had happened, it really would have been on
(20:00):
my shoulders.
Thankfully, the event was, asyou had a really good, you know,
really big success.
We work really closely with theUSA track and field team and the
University of Oregon andeverybody was the whole
community in in that place in inEugene where it was held was
totally passionate about makingsure this was a great event and
and it and it clearly was anddid a lot about making sure this
was a great event and and itand it clearly was and did a lot
for US track and field acrossthe country and raised the
(20:22):
profile and brought in new fansand new followers.
But yeah, was it was a verydifficult three years and you
say I do this all the time, so Imust have got used to it.
When this role came along, itwas one of those roles I had to
think very carefully about.
Was it going to be the sameaccountability, same pressure?
And I looked at it and itreally within a couple of weeks
(20:45):
of interviewing and then beingoffered the job.
It was a bit of a no-brainer,really.
Who wouldn't want to work inone of the biggest women's
sports events across the globein 2025?
Sue Anstiss (20:54):
Yeah, in your home nation.
And did you ever feel that youmight leave the Oregon role?
Because it's interesting thatyou look across these many major
events of people that areleaving them, stepping aside,
stepping down, being moved on,et cetera, in mid-term as it
were, and it's almost like Iguess I look at you and all that
happened out there.
It wouldn't have beensurprising almost if you said
(21:16):
you know hands up.
Sarah Massey (21:24):
That's it enough.
Enough, almost so.
What was it that kept you goingto see the end of that contract
?
Uh, did cross my mind multipletimes, I'm sure I have to be
honest.
Yeah, um, I think that's justme sheer determination not to,
not to want to fail and not towant to see it through.
I felt responsibility to theteam that we'd recruited out
there, felt a responsibility tothe sport I'm passionate about.
I felt a responsibility toworld athletics, obviously as
(21:44):
the international federation,that that I could continue and
do that role.
So, yeah, did cross my mind,but I think dogged determination
and tenacity was, was probablywhat, what kept me there.
Uh, knowing that we couldsucceed in the end.
Sue Anstiss (21:58):
Yeah, and so you did.
And clearly the fans are suchan important consideration.
You mentioned that in terms ofOregon, but when it comes to
successful major events.
So, looking back, what are thegreat sort of fan experiences
that you've witnessed at theevents that you've worked?
Sarah Massey (22:14):
on, I think, ones that put the fans at the heart
of everything.
So events that have reallyresearched who's going to be
there and what they are actuallylooking for.
Knowing your audience I mean, Iknow that again, it's a bit of
a cliche, but people whounderstand their audience can
then provide exactly theexperience that is needed.
And obviously you're going toget a range of audiences at each
different event.
(22:34):
It's not one size fits all, butit is is really, really
important.
So we've just done a study now,um, of all our ticket purchases
I've already purchased for thefor the women's rugby world cup.
We've just gone out to themthis week to ask them a series
of questions to make sure thatwe can make sure that we are
interpreting what they want intoour fan experience across the
(22:55):
eight different venues.
So sports do it really wellwhere they understand their
audience and they provide what'sneeded for them.
Sue Anstiss (23:02):
You and I were both at the Stoop last Friday for
the Friday night game ofHarlequins versus Bristol Bears
in the PWR and it certainly feltfor me like a very different
experience to any men's rugbygames I've attended there in the
evenings.
It was the first Friday nightgame they had there, wasn't it?
Do you think that male andfemale fans do approach their
fandom differently?
Is that what you're findingfrom the research?
Sarah Massey (23:24):
Yeah, definitely the female fans are looking for
something very different.
They're looking for more of afamily day out.
They're looking for more of animmersive experience.
They're looking for more of anunderstanding of what the sport
they're watching is.
They're looking to to know theplayers.
I mean, that's that, that'sreally what it is.
They're really looking tounderstand who those stars are,
(23:45):
why they want to follow them.
I mean, you could see that onfriday night, even with the,
even with the cheers that werecoming out when the players were
being announced.
It's so important and obviouslyhaving alona there helped a
massive amount.
But I mean, you just saw at theend the crowds that waited
around the entire, the entirefour sides of the pitch waited
for her to extraordinary.
(24:06):
Go down and say and the otherplayers as well.
You're absolutely right.
Sue Anstiss (24:09):
so there's definitely that alona mara
effect, but absolutely thisgroup that I was with of of
young women just wanted to seesarah burn, wanted to see simi
pam.
There was just so many athletescoming by that they were
waiting for it was amazing, yeah.
Sarah Massey (24:21):
And they stayed there for ages.
I mean, they were there for along time afterwards.
And I think that's the beautyand we always talk about it,
don't we of the female athletesis they're willing to promote
their sums.
They've got great personalitiesand they've got great
storytelling, wasn't it afterthe Paris Olympics, all of the
research showed that the mostfollowers, social following, was
for female athletes, not maleathletes, because they want to
(24:43):
tell their stories and people,and females and males alike,
want to follow them and listento them and hear what they've
got to say.
Really important.
Sue Anstiss (24:50):
So, talking more about the Women's Rugby World
Cup, I mean what a year it'sgoing to be.
It just feels every week aswe're moving, we're building.
Now we're not counting down,we're building up to it, but can
you give us a bit of anoverview of where you are right
now with preparations?
Sarah Massey (25:04):
Yeah.
So obviously moving into theyear of operation gives it a
whole new focus, but we aretracking really well ahead on
our preparations I mean theticket sales have been
unprecedented.
Ahead on our preparations.
I mean the ticket sales havebeen unprecedented sold more
tickets over 220,000 ticketsthan any previous Women's Rugby
(25:27):
World Cup and more than prettymuch many major sports events on
the women's side and the men'sside.
So interest and momentum hasjust been incredible over the
last few months.
It really has.
I think we've really capturedthe nation in terms of what this
is going to be and how big it'sgoing to be.
And it's not that we weren'tambitious on our ticket sales to
begin with.
So when people say, oh, haveyou sold more than you thought
you would, it's not that we'vesold more than we thought we
(25:47):
would because we've had bigambitions to pack the stands.
That's been one of our mantrasfrom the very out the stands
from an atmosphere andperspective and making sure it
looks great on TV and makingsure the fans have got a
brilliant experience.
But we've probably sold moretickets than we expected to by
this stage.
I think women's eventstraditionally have been quite
late in terms of their salesprocess because there isn't an
(26:09):
appointment to view, becausepeople didn't probably know the
Rugby World Cup was coming upthis year in the UK.
So we expected the tickets tocome on, probably later than
they.
They did, but they haven't,which is great.
So we're now in a situation weknow people want to buy tickets,
we know we'll put more ticketsout and we know that they will
buy.
And I think what we've also doneis captured the hearts and
minds of the local hostlocations as well.
(26:32):
I mean the eight differentcities that we're going to put
massive amount of force behindwhat they're doing as well.
They're deeply passionate.
Their communities are gettingbehind it and the more that we
raise awareness and momentumaround each of those host
locations, the more people wantto be part of it's, kind of a
form of civic pride.
This is coming to their city.
They want to be part of it.
(26:52):
They want to showcase whattheir city has to offer.
And then, in terms ofoperational preparations, I mean
it's all around the eightdifferent host locations and
cities so busy with all of thehost venue operational planning
as well as the city planning.
So, as I said, we're bringingthose cities to life with fan
zones and other activities thatwill be going on.
So getting those communitiesbehind what we're doing is
(27:14):
really important.
Sue Anstiss (27:16):
And we hear so much , don't we, about the impact of
a Lionesses win with a homeEuros in 2022.
So do you feel we're going tosee a similar impact around the
Women's Rugby World Cup?
Sarah Massey (27:26):
Yes, we do, and I think it's our job is to put on
the most amazing, biggest RugbyWorld Cup that we can.
There's a global celebration ofwomen's rugby and one that is a
generational moment for thesport.
We only come around once everyfour years, so we know we have
to make the absolute most ofwhat we can do to promote the
(27:48):
event both on and off the pitch,because when we leave town as a
Rugby World Cup we want to makesure that we are leaving a
legacy and leaving the momentumfrom a domestic legacy point of
view and obviously from a pwrleague point of view as well.
So we need to try and do asmuch as we can to raise that
awareness and visibility, butmake sure that then there's
(28:09):
other things happening along theway, which obviously england
rugby and the pwr are alreadydoing to continue that impact
and legacy in England.
And then from a World Rugbypoint of view, they're obviously
looking at the legacy that thatwill then have globally.
So there's two sort of legacyprograms that are sitting
alongside each other one, theImpact 25 program, which is led
(28:30):
by the RFU.
So that's all about domesticlegacy increasing participation,
improving facilities, gettingmore officials and coaches, and
then, from a world rugbyperspective, it's an it's called
the impact beyond program.
So looking at how we can makesure we're maintaining that
legacy from a global perspectiveacross the world through
various different programs.
There's a new new participationprogram called rugby rising,
(28:53):
which is aimed at younger agegroup of girls getting involved
globally.
We work with Child Fund, oursocial impact partner.
They're looking at ways toimprove and enrich the lives of
girls across the globe throughtheir programs in community
rugby in many differentcountries that you would not
expect to necessarily find rugbyand they're doing amazing work.
So there's a whole host ofprograms and initiatives both
(29:17):
domestically and internationallyto continue the legacy of what
we're doing.
And then we obviously have alegacy that we are looking at
from a tournament perspective aswell, mainly based around
opportunities for women andgirls.
So by providing theopportunities that we are across
a whole load of differentprograms, then how can we make
sure that those women and girls,particularly from diverse
(29:38):
communities and underrepresentedgroups, have a place in the
sports industry in the future?
Sue Anstiss (29:43):
It's interesting, isn't it, that it's not that
working in partnership with theHome Nation, because I did see
some fantastic stuff I thinkAlex Teasdale shared last week
around the first tranche ofImpact 2025 and the work they
were doing in communities, andit's just so powerful, isn't it?
So you're not as involved, butdo you feel the clubs on the
ground will be ready, hopefully,for this influx of young women
(30:04):
that discover the game for thefirst time this autumn?
Sarah Massey (30:11):
So Impact 2025 programme, as you say, is driven
by the RFU.
It's separate funding throughSport England for them to
deliver against a set of metricswhich they've agreed with Sport
England aimed at participationand the increase of coaches and
officials around the country.
And that's one of the reasonsthat they're doing it is to make
sure that they're going intothose community clubs and making
sure that the facilities arethere, that they are a sense of,
they're instilling a sense ofbelonging and inclusivity within
those clubs so that when thewomen and girls do join that
(30:33):
they feel that's a place wherethey belong and they can find
their community within that clubexcellent we talk about funding
, and funding is obviously soimportant, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss (30:41):
so is this tournament funded to the same
level as the men's rugby worldcup?
Sarah Massey (30:46):
uh, I mean the budgets are very different
between the men's rugby worldcup and the women's rugby world
cup.
Yes, uh is that a no, they're.
They're very different.
It's a very different model.
I mean we're looking at thefact that we've had huge
investment by World Rugby intothis Women's Rugby World Cup.
So, as I said before, we're aUK sport funded event, so
(31:09):
there's funding coming that waythrough GCMS.
The rest of the money is raisedthrough revenue through
commercial sponsorships andpartnerships, media rights and
then the investment by WorldRugby directly into our pnl for
the women's rugby world cup.
So it it's certainly thebiggest investment made into a
men's rugby world cup so far.
Uh, world rugby totallyunderstand and know that that
(31:30):
the future of the women's gameis is by putting on these big,
huge pinnacle events that reallydrive visibility and awareness
for future fan growth and futureparticipation.
So it's part of the strategicplan at World Rugby.
It's one of the key pillarsdriving women's rugby and
driving Women's Rugby World Cupas a key part of the strategy.
So very much front of mind foreverybody within World Rugby to
(31:53):
push this and make sure we'reputting on the best event we can
.
Sue Anstiss (31:56):
And where do you see it going beyond this next 10
years, 20 years?
Where do you think the Women'sRugby World Cup could get to?
Sarah Massey (32:03):
So we always talk about this because we well,
world Rugby have obviously settheir Rugby World Cups for the
future.
So we know exactly where theRugby World Cup is going to be
in 29th for the women inAustralia, and then obviously on
to America four years later andwe've always talked about it
being a step change.
So we know that there's no.
You know it wasn't possible toput on a men's rugby world cup
(32:23):
sized rugby world cup in 2025.
But what we've done is bereally intentional about the
standards that we've increasedfor this event based on previous
world cups, and then what theteam will do in Australia is
they will then step on again thestandards to step up, and again
they'll be stepped up inamerica as well.
So we are hoping that withinthis cycle, we are getting to
(32:45):
the stage where we are reachingthe standards that are put on
for a men's rugby world cup, sothere can be can be equality, um
, and that that's the hope andthat's why the new model that
world rugby have implemented fortheir events.
So world rugby now own alltheir rugby world cups.
It's not bid out to a countryand they form their own LOC.
(33:06):
World Rugby are now in controlof the entire organisation and
operation of their Rugby WorldCups, which is why they then.
The LOC that I'm responsiblefor leading is part of World
Rugby.
I work for World Rugby andbecause of that they're in
control of their own destiny, socan do the the stepping up at
each stage into each particularrugby world cup.
Sue Anstiss (33:26):
And when you say improving standards, without
going into all detail, but butstandards of what?
What do you mean by improvingstandards?
Sarah Massey (33:33):
so one of the key things we've done for this rugby
world cup from a player's pointof view is, in previous world
cups, facilities have beenshared, so teams would have had
to have shared hotels, sharedteam bases, share facilities.
What we've done is every singleteam that comes to this event
will have their own team base.
So every team has a team hotel,an outdoor training pitch, an
(33:54):
indoor training pitch, a gym anda swimming pool that they can
have access to and they're nothaving to share it with other
teams, which, coming out of therugby world cup last time around
, was one of the key things thatthe teams knew that that was
that was going to be a massivecontributor to how they played
and their performance and howthey excel on the pitch.
So we have one of our key partsof our strategies about
(34:14):
delivering high standards, andit's very much driven around
what we're providing for theplayers so that they have the
best environment and the bestthe best conditions that they
can have, so that they have thebest environment and the best
the best conditions that theycan have so that they can thrive
on the pitch and play the bestcompelling action and matches
that they can.
Other areas up, uppingstandards for players,
particularly around our pitches.
So making sure that all ourpitches, the training pitches,
(34:35):
are of our really high standard,high standard, same same as the
men's would do, and again, it'sjust the facilities and
services that we'll be providingaround medical, around some of
the player welfare will all beup to the same standards as the
men's.
Sue Anstiss (34:49):
And in terms of that, broadcast and fans etc.
What might be different?
If you're talking to some fansnow and saying what they might
expect from this year'stournament, how different might
it look to what they've seen inthe past?
Sarah Massey (35:02):
So they'll see much bigger stadiums with many
more people in them, so crowdsare.
We've we've broken records interms of crowds and tickets sold
than previous rugby world cups.
I think fans will see a greatatmosphere.
They'll have a great fanexperience.
Um, it'll be very different towhat they might experience at a
twickenham or a bristol when's amen's match.
(35:22):
But that's obviously againtaking account of who our
audience and what we'reexpecting our audience to be and
what they are expecting to havethere.
I mean, one of our mantras rightfrom the beginning, as I said,
is to pack the stands.
That's going to create anincredible atmosphere.
For a start, we will have lotsof fan experience facing
experiences out on theconcourses.
(35:43):
There'll be fan zones withinthe cities and then fan plazas
within each individual venue aswell, and that'll have lots of
different interaction.
We're bringing in a whole newvision into our fan experience
and our whole fan experiencevision.
It's all about creating rockstars.
It's all about turning it up.
So making sure that music andentertainment really are are the
(36:04):
keystone of what we're doing.
So, yeah, you're going to seelots of loud and bold and proud
fan experience across all of ourvenues Fantastic.
Sue Anstiss (36:14):
I'm excited.
I was excited anyway.
I bought a lot of tickets, butI'm very excited now.
And if you could look back in afew years time and see one
major milestone that came from atournament, what would you like
that to be?
What might that be?
Sarah Massey (36:27):
I think that we have shown that rugby is a sport
for everybody, that the DNA ofrugby is inherently all about
all shapes and sizes.
Anybody can play.
You can find your place placein rugby, whether that's on the
field or off the field.
So I think this is going to bea real turning point for
(36:47):
promoting rugby as a sport, aplace of belonging for people to
be part of.
We will have created lots ofnew fans and I think that we
will really have shown thatthere really is incredible value
in women's sport.
I think that's one of the thingswe really want to show by going
across the country.
You know it's bold.
We're going to eight differentvenues.
We're in every region of thecountry.
(37:08):
We're trying to create thosepacked out stands and great
atmospheres in every single oneof them that's.
You know that's hard, there's alot to do there, but I think if
we do that and we do that inthe sport of rugby, we will have
shown that there is absolutetrue value in women's sport and
we will have done that throughthe DNA of rugby and showcasing
(37:28):
exactly what it has to offer forso many different types of
people.
Sue Anstiss (37:31):
I'd like to finish, if I can, by talking a bit more
about gender balance in sportsleadership.
While you're working at theInternational Federations in
Tennis and Hockey, I know youhelped create gender equality
campaigns, so can you perhapstell us a little bit more about
that work?
Sarah Massey (37:46):
Yeah, it was something that I and again
working in the InternationalFederation world, and it was
when, really, the IOC were alsocoming out with some of their
gender equality strategies andhow federations could put in and
improve governance aroundbringing more women,
particularly into theirleadership positions on their
executive boards, through thatside, but also how because the
(38:09):
International Federation isgenerally obviously a mixed
gender in terms of the sportsthey're promoting how could they
make sure that the mediacoverage was equal, that the
photographs that they wereputting out, anything they were
putting out in the media, wasvery balanced from a gender
point of view, even if it wasjust publications or articles
you'd see being produced, evenif it was just internal
documents and the pictures wouldall be of male athletes, it was
very much putting a campaign inplace.
(38:30):
I mean, I guess my marketingbackground probably brings that
through, but I always think thatif you have a campaign to hang
something on, it gives people aplatform to, to look to and to
reach to, and and it also justgives it a chance to then get it
out much more into the media,out on, out on social and talk
to it.
So so, within the hockeyfederation we had a campaign,
which was equally amazing.
(38:50):
I mean, we were really lucky inhockey because there are so
many nations in hockey thatactually in some countries like
argentina, the women's game isactually more popular than the
men's games.
Quite spread and same inholland is very similar male and
female exposure for both themale and female sports.
So hockey was one of those.
Yeah, we, we did a wholepromotion around equally amazing
.
And whilst we felt that it wasequally amazing from a
(39:12):
participation point of view, wealso need to be equally amazing
when it came to representationon boards, when it came to
representation and leadershipwithin nations, and that we were
constantly promoting and makingsure that that campaign ran.
And similarly with tennis, thecampaign is about advantage, all
so making sure that bothgenders and now they've expanded
(39:33):
that to look at all forms ofdiversity as well and advantage
to everybody that it needs to beconsidered equal.
And again, once you have acampaign around it and Billie
Jean King got very behind it andstarted to talk about it it
just gives a focal point.
I think I'm a big believer incampaigns and how you can then
drive that through a reallyfocused and singular message.
Sue Anstiss (39:54):
And what progress have you seen across?
As I look back across those 30years, what progress have you
seen, and not just on the boardroles, but in those senior roles
within sports management,across the organisations you've
worked within?
Sarah Massey (40:06):
Yeah, I mean we're seeing it.
I mean I wouldn't say thatwe've solved it.
We know still there's an awfullot of work to do with ensuring
that there are still womencoming through at all levels to
take senior positions inorganisations, but then senior
positions as well on on boards.
So I would say seeing massivestep forwards and the
(40:26):
conversations that we now havearound it are much more open.
There's way more people havingthose conversations.
I mean what you and kate haveachieved with the women's sport
collective is is massive andthat has massively helped so
many people in in the industry,both with information, guidance
and support, but also how tohave those conversations, how to
meet more people, and that hasmassively helped so many people
in the industry, both withinformation, guidance and
support, but also how to havethose conversations, how to meet
(40:46):
more people as role models andmentors to then go, okay, well,
I can do that as well.
How can I get there?
What's the best way to do it?
So I think that network that'sbeen created has made a huge
difference, particularly in thiscountry.
I suppose other countries youknow probably not quite as
advanced as here, but seenmassive changes here.
But, as I say, still quite abit of work to do to make sure
(41:09):
that continues, making sure thatwe're still having those
conversations and moving forward.
Sue Anstiss (41:14):
And just finally, if you could go back to when we
were both young graduatesleaving Loughborough University
and you could give your youngerself there some advice for
getting started out in the field, what kind of what would you
say to her today?
Sarah Massey (41:26):
I know, looking back, I probably would be
intimidated in going to askpeople for help or approaching
someone to be a mentor, or evenjust asking someone for a coffee
to to ask them how I mightprogress and the sorts of people
I might meet or might be ableto help me on my journey.
I think we just found our ownway.
I don't know how we quite didit.
I think it was particularlyintentional, but very fortunate
(41:47):
to have found the way through.
That we did.
I would say to anybody and backto my younger self is just take
all the opportunities that youcan.
I feel like that's what I did.
You know, don't let anyonestand in your way.
You have to be bold and youhave to be a bit tenacious to
get there.
But at the same time, otherpeople like people to reach out
to you and ask for help, ask forsupport, ask for guidance.
(42:09):
Be very clear about what you'relooking for and why you want it
.
But people are there willing tohelp, particularly women in
senior positions.
Do not in any way feelintimidated.
Just just reach out.
And and probably probablythroughout my career and it's an
and it's you know, we all sayit, but imposter syndrome is a
real thing, but it's trying tounderstand that we are all here
(42:30):
because we deserve to be here.
We're all here for a reason,and anything that we can do to
help that younger generationcome through then, then, then,
then that's what everybody isstriving to do.
We, our job is to now help theyounger generation come through
and have greater representation,particularly from
underrepresented groups, in thesports industry in the future.
Sue Anstiss (42:53):
I'm sure from that you can tell just how excited I
am about the Women's Rugby WorldCup this year and also what a
fan I am of the great work thatSarah is doing across sport.
If you'd like to hear from morefemale trailblazers from sport,
there are over 200 episodes ofthe Game Changers that are all
free to listen to on podcastplatforms or from our website at
(43:16):
fearlesswomencouk.
Other guests include eliteathletes, coaches, entrepreneurs
, sports scientists, academics,broadcasters, journalists and
CEOs all women who are changingthe game in sport.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
can also find out more about theWomen's Sport Collective, which
(43:37):
Sarah talked about at the endof our conversation.
It's a free, inclusivecommunity for all women working
in sport and we now have over10,000 members across the world,
so please do come and join us.
The whole of my book Game On theUnstoppable Rise of Women's
Sport is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Every episode of Series 11 isme reading a chapter of the book
(43:59):
.
Thanks again to Sport Englandfor backing the Game Changers
and the Women's Sport Collectivewith a National Lottery Award,
and also thanks to Sam Walker atwhat Goes On Media, who does
such a brilliant job as ourexecutive producer.
Thank you also to my lovelycolleague at Fearless Women,
Kate Hannan.
The Game Changers is availableon all podcast platforms, so
(44:24):
please do follow it now and youwon't miss out on future
episodes.
Come and say hello on socialmedia, where you'll find me on
LinkedIn and Instagram at SueAnstis, the Game Changers
fearless women in sport.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.