March 25, 2025 • 51 mins
"I’ve become the person I needed when I was younger – and that’s the greatest gift I can offer the athletes I coach today."
Jenny Meadows is a former world-class middle-distance runner and now one of Britain’s most respected athletics coaches. Recently honoured – alongside her husband – as BBC Sports Personality Coach of the Year, Jenny is a European and World medallist whose success was forged through resilience, grit and a quiet determination to prove she belonged, even when she often felt like an outsider.
In this deeply honest and moving conversation, Jenny shares how sport transformed her from a shy young girl who let her brother speak for her, to someone who found her voice, her power and her purpose through athletics.
Affectionately known as the “pocket rocket”, Jenny speaks candidly about the mindset challenges she faced, and how it took her decades to believe she deserved her place at the top of the sport.
She discusses the devastating impact of doping in athletics, the heartbreak of missing out on podiums and finals, and how, ultimately, it was a broken heart that led her to retire.
Today, Jenny co-leads the M11 Track Club in Manchester with her husband and long-time coach, Trevor Painter, guiding a group of elite athletes including Olympic gold medallist Keely Hodgkinson.
She reflects on the joy of coaching, the role of empathy and the emotional intelligence needed to support high-performing athletes as whole people - not just performers.
A passionate advocate for greater gender diversity in coaching, Jenny also shares her hopes for the future and her commitment to creating more visibility, opportunity and community for women in the coaching space.
This is a powerful conversation about identity, belief, and finding meaning beyond medals.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sue Anstiss (00:03):
Hello and welcome to The Game Changers.
I'm Sue Anstiss, and this isthe podcast where you'll hear
from trailblazing women in sportwho are knocking down barriers
and challenging the status quofor women and girls everywhere.
What can we learn from theirjourneys as we explore key
issues around equality in sportand beyond?
I'd like to start with a verybig thank you to our partner,
(00:24):
Sport England, who supportT heGame Changers podcast through a
national lottery award.
Today, I'm joined by theincredible Jenny Meadows, a
world-class middle distancerunner who is now an
award-winning coach, recentlyhonoured, alongside her husband,
as BBC Sports Personality Coachof the Year.
(00:47):
Jenny's best known for herbrilliant career on the track,
representing Great Britain onthe world stage with a huge
tally of medals.
Her talent, grit and tacticalbrilliance made her a firm
favourite with the fans and oneof the most respected athletes
in the sport.
Jenny's huge impact onathletics extends beyond her
racing days.
Since stepping off the track in2016, jenny's been involved in
(01:09):
broadcasting and taking onseveral board positions within
the sport, and is now fullyimmersed in a coaching role
alongside her husband, trevor,as part of the M11 track club.
They enjoyed huge success atlast year's Paris Olympics, with
all three of their athletesbringing home medals, including
Keeley Hodgkinson's stunninggold.
So, jenny, let me take you backto the beginning.
(01:34):
I'd love to know've just said,Sue, you know especially the
broadcasting.
Jenny Meadows (01:47):
That is something that I absolutely would never
have been able to do withoutsports.
I am the youngest of twochildren, so my brother, andrew,
is three years older than me,and he used to do all the
speaking for me in our family.
Sue Anstiss (02:32):
Play other sports, but athletics was the one that
you really loved or kind of whatwas your introduction to the
sport?
Jenny Meadows (02:38):
Well, really strangely and I don't agree with
this I only ever did athletics.
So, yeah, you know, and, andathletics, like I say, it really
just made me come out of myshell almost so.
Uh, mum and dad were greatgrowing up with me and my
brother, but you know, I alwayssay I had a little bit of a
sheltered life.
(02:59):
Mum and dad weren't reallyconfident, neither of them even
drove.
And yeah, I think my parentswere really good.
They really pushed us to seewhat our skill set was.
But I really showed myself.
As you know, every school,primary school has a sports day
and of course it is running,isn't it?
It's running, it's jumping, etc.
(03:20):
And I was quick.
So it was a case of once Ieventually convinced my mum.
You know, let me see how quickam I, you know, am I just the
fastest in my school?
Is there a club I can join, etc.
And once I convinced my mum totake me along to the club.
Um, I was just a runner and youknow, obviously I do think that
(03:40):
was the sport that I was alwaysgoing to excel in, but it was
always just athletics for me,and you started at 400, didn't
you?
Sue Anstiss (03:48):
And then you moved to 800.
I went the other direction.
I was an 800-meter runner and Imoved to four and four hurdles.
So I wonder what was theprocess for you in deciding?
Was it just the one that youwere best at, or did you enjoy
one more than the other?
Jenny Meadows (04:00):
Well, the really good thing for me is in my club
it was great, you know you, youhad to try everything.
So I was never going to be goodat throwing.
You know, I'm only small, I'm156 centimeters, so five foot
one and a little bit.
So, yeah, I was never going tothrow, but I was quite explosive
.
Um, I was quite good at jumping, you know, high jump, long jump
(04:22):
, etc.
But I think it was.
You know, I had that kind offast twitch.
I was pretty good at 100 and200, pretty good at 400.
But I think that 800 was asweet spot.
You know, I wasn't the greatestat cross country and I just
think it's where all my skillscame together at that.
The shortest of the middledistance events.
Sue Anstiss (04:42):
It was interesting researching you because I hadn't
realised you were 5'1" and Imust have known that you weren't
extraordinarily tall.
But when I was at school therewas a girl I can remember her
name, it was a long time ago forme, but Sarah Marchant who was
not very tall but was super,super fast as a sprinter.
So was there ever an optionthat you might have done more?
100, 200, the heptathlon, didyou in the jumps, did you look
(05:05):
at all of those things and so,just over time, you found your
way to 800?
.
Jenny Meadows (05:10):
Yeah, I think I did.
I think I always knew I wasgoing to be restricted in a
sense of you know I was nevergoing to be good enough to do
the high jump, for example.
But you know, you look atJessica Ennis.
You know, absolutelyunbelievable.
You know it's like she's gotsprings in those legs.
You know the height that shecan clear.
Obviously the bar height versusthe actual height is incredible
(05:31):
.
But you know, reallyinteresting.
Talking about height, I actuallythink that really restricted my
mindset for quite a long timein my career and it wasn't until
somebody actually noticed whenI used to stand on the start
line I would actually go on mytiptoes.
It was almost like I was tryingto find a couple of extra
inches.
Like you know I belong here.
(05:52):
But when I did do the 400s Idefinitely came to a point in my
career where I would actuallyhave to look up to the other
competitors and I would be, likeyou know what, I am built, a
little bit different.
And when I looked over at the800 girls I was kind of like I
think if anyone kind of lookedat my body shape, they looked
(06:13):
how I looked they probablywouldn't have put me in that 400
meter category.
So I think I naturally justevolved that 800, because that's
where I thought it looked likeI fitted and and obviously it
matched my physiology as well.
Sue Anstiss (06:26):
It's interesting, isn't it?
I know broadcasters would callyou the pocket rocket, and do
you ever feel you areunderestimated?
Because I guess it's theinternal side of how you felt
about yourself.
But did you use that to youradvantage, almost as you're
lining up on the start line andyou're not as tall as some of
the other girls there, did youfeel that was a almost like a
secret advantage for you too?
Jenny Meadows (06:48):
I think it's worked both ways.
I think when I was younger.
You know we're all so confidentwhen we're younger.
Of course I'd love to meet theyounger version of myself.
You know, I started at my clubJanuary 1989, so it was a few
months before my eighth birthday, and my mum always tells the
tale of when I went along thatfirst evening.
The coach said to me what is itthat you want to do?
(07:10):
And you know, the fully grownversion of me is five foot one a
little bit, so I don't know howtall I was at just before age
eight.
But apparently my response wasI want to go to the Olympics now
.
Yeah, he just meant what youwant to do tonight.
What group am I supposed to putyou in?
You know what.
You want to go to the OlympicsNow.
He just meant what you want todo tonight.
What group am I supposed to putyou in?
You know, what do you want todo?
And I was there, the Olympics,you know I had that burning
(07:32):
ambition and I think he justthought are you sprinting, are
you doing endurance?
You know, etc.
And it really sat in his mind.
And he said to my mom you know,I can see she's talented, but
she's definitely got thatmindset because she wants to go
to the Olympics.
But I think at that age, if Ilook back in my career, if
someone would say at the end ofyour career, you'll win a
(07:52):
European championships, you'llget a bronze in the world
championships, I think Iprobably would have thought that
was quite a disappointment.
I'm going to win three of theseOlympics, surely, and I'm going
to the world record.
But you know, you wish youcould keep that mindset
throughout life.
And I do definitely think,coming from a very supportive
(08:12):
family I have to say I know mymum is going to listen to this
but a family that were very wehad to step out of our comfort
zone when I became a goodathlete and my mum and dad, you
know, didn't really know whatthat took.
Like I say, you know theydidn't drive, so we had to rely
on public transport and I dothink all of that gave me some
(08:35):
unbelievable resilience.
You know, when I turned up atthe track I wasn't there to mess
around for that hour.
My mum and dad had, you know,invested in me financially and
put their effort into it, and soI think I had all the
determination that pocket rocketas I was younger.
But then I think lifeexperiences, you know, teach you
things.
You fall into those traps offeeling you're not as good as
(08:57):
other people.
And I definitely think inBritish athletics at the time
you know as well as me, beingsmall males were so dominant.
So if I look back at it, therewas a competition called the
Europa Cup and the men and thewomen joined forces and the men,
you know, one competitor perevent, the same for the women,
(09:18):
and they would actually do aseparate league table and the
men were the best in Europe byfar and the women, you know, say
there were 12 nations.
They were kind of ninth ortenth so they would therefore
bring the overall score maybedown to Great Britain came third
.
So I think, because therewasn't the outstanding role
models, there was definitelysome role models.
You know, I know Sally Gunnellreally well now.
(09:40):
You know her husband coachesand you know Sally, barcelona
1992, I, I was 11, I rememberthat race.
She beat sandra farm patrickfrom america and you know I
definitely thought sally gunnell, you know she's gone and done
it denise lewis, kelly holmes,but there just wasn't the amount
of women, there wasn't thedepth, they were kind of
(10:01):
standouts where the men therewere so, so many.
So I do think the combinationof you know that kind of theme
that we had in Great Britain themen were dominant.
I was small.
It really did take somethingfor me much later in my athletic
career.
You know, I started it justbefore age eight.
I won my first global medal at28 and I really think yeah, I
(10:24):
think it was a mindset, I thinkI just thought it shouldn't
happen to me.
What makes me feel this?
You know, young girl who'ssmall and everybody else thinks
that she even has has a place inthis sport.
So, you know, really interestedin my career, I adopted that
attitude for so long.
But now, later in my coachingcareer, I feel like I've become
(10:48):
the version of someone that Ineeded earlier in my life and
that's something I think I'mable to to give to the athletes
now.
Did you work with a?
Sue Anstiss (10:57):
sports psychologist at all in the early stages of
your career, because that doesfeel like it's a almost a mental
, not a blocker, but that kindof not believing in what you
were clearly capable of no, Ididn't.
Jenny Meadows (11:10):
Um, you know, and sports science, and you know,
all these support services thatwe've got the the, you know,
widely used now, um, it actuallywasn't till the year 2002, so
August, when I won that worldchampionship bronze medal.
It wasn't till the March ofthat year where Trevor actually
said to me there's a hugeblocker here, jen, you know, I
(11:31):
see you do incredible things onthe track in training and it's
just not transcending tocompetition.
And I think I just reallyreached that low where I thought
I could just train so much moreand just keep going and in
training, the evidence is there,but there's just something
stopping me.
So, yeah, it was literallyMarch 2009.
(11:51):
I just, you know, invested in insports psychology.
I worked with an amazing lady,sarah Broadhead, who used to
work under Steve Peters, thechimp paradox, and I was just at
that stage in my life where Iwas like I need something else
and for me, sarah just made meunderstand how my brain was
(12:12):
working.
It was kind of like, oh mygoodness, like now I understand
what is stopping me fromreaching those performances and
it literally just changed myresults going forwards.
Sue Anstiss (12:23):
And if we go back to look at your career, who were
the biggest rivals on the trackat that time and how did they
shape your career too, becausethat also contributes to the
winning of medals and places infinals and so on.
Jenny Meadows (12:36):
Yeah, it does.
I mean at the time I alwaysused to think of it as a
negative, but it was a hugepositive that I had such a good
domestic rivalry.
So there was three Britishathletes there was Marilyn Okoru
, gemma Simpson and myself.
So, fascinatingly, I only everbecame the British champion once
.
Once, which a lot of peopleindoors, um, I was the British
(13:01):
champion, I think seven, seventimes.
But indoors, um, sorry,outdoors, I yeah, there was
something about thosechampionships to me again which
were a real, a real blocker.
So I went to many championshipsbut only actually won that one
british title.
But what I am proud about isonce I went to all the
championships.
I was always the best performerat the championships.
(13:21):
So trevor did a good job ofgetting making sure I best
performer at the championships.
So Trevor did a good job ofmaking sure I peaked at the
championships.
So that brilliant domesticrivalry was great.
I coach some athletes fromother nations at the moment and
they're the best in their nationand they almost haven't got
that kind of hunger.
They've not got that motivationwhen they go to the national
(13:43):
championships because they knowthey're going to win it and you
know it's it's, it's not anadrenaline-fueled weekend.
So I am grateful for it, eventhough at the time I thought it
was quite annoying.
And then again, on the women's800 meters, there were so many
brilliant women internationallyand there wasn't always a
standout athlete.
So you did know.
You know, if I get this right,if I get my tactics right, if I
(14:06):
get my strategy right, there's,there's medals up for grabs.
So I do look back now at that,you know, healthy competition
and think at the end of the dayit did get the best out of me.
Unfortunately, my career when Iwas at my very best was tainted
with, with a few issues with alot of people, doping.
Obviously, the Russian dopingscandal kind of broke just when
(14:30):
I was towards the end of mycareer and I've had subsequent
medal upgrades or not so whichhas been obviously quite
frustrating.
And then the whole differencesin sexual development, you know,
came around as well.
So I kind of thought, you know,at the top of my career I
probably didn't quite get theresults that maybe I deserved.
(14:52):
But the counter argument tothat is it did really challenge
me.
I can look myself in the mirrorand think there was nothing
that I could do that could haveprepared me any better.
So I did me as well as I coulddo me.
But yeah, there's probablysilvers and bronzes in my medal
cabinet and lots of bits wherethose results were quite tainted
(15:16):
and they should have been alittle bit better.
Sue Anstiss (15:18):
Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it?
I would say, in researching you, it kind of reminds you of
where we were at that time.
As you say, you were deniedmedals by athletes that you were
then subsequently received them, but not in terms of being on a
podium and having a nationalanthem, et cetera, but in some
cases they were upgraded, but Ihadn't even realised this.
(15:38):
But the World Championships in2011,.
You reached the semifinals, butall three Russian athletes that
denied you qualification forthe final were then disqualified
for doping, so you didn't evenget a chance to get to the final
.
How do you even begin to dealwith that as an athlete?
I mean, you're very mature theway you phrased how.
You did the best you could asan athlete, but where?
Jenny Meadows (16:03):
you phrased how you did the best you could as an
athlete, but did you everquestion the point of it or
think about stopping the sport?
You know, really thankfully, Ithink I was quite naive to it.
So again, maybe it is thatmindset of well, who do I think
I am to think I'm the best inthe world, so anyone who's
meeting me must be cheating.
You know, that definitely wasnever in my mindset.
But you know, I trained really,really, really hard.
(16:26):
I generally believe there wasno one who trained harder than
than I trained.
It was a huge, hugedisappointment for me not to
make that final in in the worldchampionships in Daegu and I had
a couple of sleepless nightsafter it and again, I didn't
presume people had cheated.
I really thought I failed somuch so sad, isn't it?
that's so sad, yeah, it's so sad.
I look back on myself and thisis what I'm saying I wish I
(16:47):
would have had the version thatI have now become for the other
athletes, because it was verytough with Trevor and I, you
know husband and wife and andcoached an athlete, and that's
not a situation that either ofus ever really wanted.
But I just think Trevor was thebest person for me in my career
because that other coach that Iwas looking for didn't exist.
(17:08):
So I guess Trevor saw me whereother people didn't see me and
they didn't see my value.
And coaching is aboutrelationships and understanding,
which he's great at doing.
But it literally was kind of anemergency situation.
After that world champs, youknow, we got all the team
together and we had a wholeright look in your area, what
(17:29):
did we miss?
What about your area?
What you know?
What could we have done better?
And we really after that weretrying to change things.
And you know we thought, ok,the bar has been risen and we've
not, you know, stepped up to it.
And then it was a couple ofyears later when it then was
emerging about, you know, notjust people cheating, but it was
(17:50):
systematic doping.
It was a whole country who youknow were behind that, a whole
national governing body, whichyou could never think that was
even possible, and I think itwas more.
Then, when it hit me that Iactually thought, oh my goodness
, you know.
After then I really pushed mybody and I was already training
(18:11):
enough and I thought I wasmissing something.
And then that led to a coupleof years of injuries and
heartache etc.
And I almost thought I was goodenough, I didn't need to change
anything.
It's just people chose to do itthe wrong way and thankfully,
social media was still in itsinfancy, when, when I was an
athlete, you know, I'd only heara few comments and it's that
(18:34):
old thing, isn't it?
There's 100 comments, there's99 positives and there was just
one comment.
I remember someone writing on aforum of oh, you know, jenny
Meadows, she's getting this, youknow, government money from the
national lottery.
She, she hasn't turned up.
She should give it back.
She should pay it back and it,you know, I felt a real
responsibility.
I, because I was getting paid tobe a full-time athlete, I I
(18:56):
took it seriously and I probablytook it too seriously.
Every hour of the day I wasthinking what should I be doing?
Is there something else I couldI could be doing?
I I would never relax and youknow, watch a movie on the couch
because I'd stretch and I'd be,you know, thinking what can I
do?
So I feel a little bit sad whenI look back at it and I kind of
think I didn't particularlyenjoy my journey in the sport.
(19:19):
I put a lot of pressure onmyself, I felt a huge
responsibility and you know, ifI think about mental health, I
probably wasn't in in the bestmental health, but my parents
had always just told me that youwork hard, and I think I just
worked hard, worked hard, workedhard, and no one ever told me
you know what Jenny have a relax.
I just worked hard and that'sworked hard, and no one ever
(19:39):
told me you know what Jenny havea relax.
Sue Anstiss (19:40):
I just worked hard and that's obviously something
you're bringing, as you said,bringing through to your
athletes.
Today we talk a lot about thesuccess in elite sport being
related to resilience and you,as you alluded, you certainly
had your fair share of injuriesand tough setbacks too.
So are you able to use that now?
(20:00):
I'm thinking about thisactually in the last couple of
weeks or so, with Keely's injury, ahead of the Keely Classic and
missing out on that worldrecord attempt, but has it
changed?
Has your experience of injuriesand dealing with injuries
helped how you're able tosupport your athletes today?
Jenny Meadows (20:12):
100%.
One of the first setbacks Keelyhad in her career it was the
World Indoor Championships.
It would have been three orfour years ago now and I can
really really remember it.
I was actually at the event andI was commentating and I had
kind of a 20 minute rest betweensessions and she phoned me and
she said OK, so I've got anissue with my quad.
(20:36):
What would you have done whenyou were an athlete?
And I said well, you know what?
It's a very different questionthat you're asking me, because
when I was an athlete I wouldhave ran.
But if you're asking me what Iwould recommend you to do is I
don't think you should run.
It's.
It's a huge risk.
If we look at this year and welook at the end of the year and
(20:58):
if we look back and we thinkwhat were the highlights, we
wouldn't be thinking about theworld indoor championships, we'd
be thinking about the outdoorequivalent.
That is the biggest goal.
And I think I've definitelybeen able to use experience and
remove emotion.
You know I give them a lot ofemotion when they need it, but
when it's decision making andit's, you know, strong
(21:20):
leadership, I can just be reallyunemotional.
And and the impressive thingabout Keely is you know she's
way less emotional than I waswhen I was an athlete the injury
she's got now, you know, um, wehelped her with it.
We went to her apartment and wespoke to her about it and you
know she cried.
(21:41):
She cried a lot and that's good, because I like to see that.
I like to see someonepassionate, I like it that
Keely's the Olympic champion andshe's not resting on a laurel,
she's looking to do the nextthing.
She wants to be one of the bestof all time and maybe that's
why she is going to be one ofthe best of all time.
And maybe that's why she isgoing to be one of the best of
all time because she has gotthat switch off where she can be
(22:05):
professional and then she knowsshe needs to listen to her team
and let them go away and do allthe work for her.
I kind of really didn't havethat, that team, and because it
was me and Trevor together, Ikind of lived in that team and I
couldn't really walk away fromit all the time.
So it was quite suffocating attimes.
But that wasn't Trevor, thatwas me, it was my hard work and
(22:27):
not being able to separate it.
But yeah, as a coach, I'mdefinitely a lot better at being
able to say to people no, dothat go away.
Be a human.
We want you to be happy.
Keely's gone off and done lotsof really exciting things in
london, but actually I think I'mstill the one with a bit of an
empty stomach and I'm thinking,oh, you know, it's such a shame
(22:50):
that she's injured and thisworld record was on and still
I'm watching her do all theseamazing things, you know, which
is great, but I think I'm theone who's still suffering from
the injury more than she is.
Sue Anstiss (23:02):
We hear a lot about sportswomen and men struggling
with that transition from beingan athlete into life after sport
.
So how was that experience foryou personally?
Did you know it was time toretire when you did?
Jenny Meadows (23:15):
Yeah, I did and I cope with it really well
actually, and you always want togo out of the sport, in your
own terms.
So, because I identified as anathlete you know I did it for 28
years I always used to think Ican't imagine not being an
athlete.
I literally cannot imaginewaking up and that's not what I
(23:37):
do.
And I felt like that for a longperiod of my life, probably 25
of the 28 years.
But I think age comes to all ofus, unfortunately.
So I retired quite late.
It was especially for 800meters.
I was 35.
But the next generation hadcome along and you know I could
(23:59):
see it.
Um, I'm really proud.
The last year of my career Istill get did get an Olympic
qualification time, but nobodyelse in the world did who were
my age.
So that's, that's prettyimpressive.
But I think it's when I had theV35 next to my name.
You know, veteran I thinkthat's a terrible term In a lot
(24:22):
of sports and in athletics theycall it master's athletics.
I think master is such a nicerterm for it.
But yeah, I think it was likeveteran, oh gosh, right, okay,
I'm a veteran now.
And my body did start finding ithard to recover between
training sessions did startfinding it hard to recover.
(24:42):
Between training sessions.
I picked up a few kind ofmuscular injuries which I'd
never had in my career, ever.
It was just like my body wastelling me.
But ultimately I do look back.
I think I did retire out ofheartbreak.
So the story about the Russiansdoping broke in 2014 and I
(25:03):
retired in 2016.
And I think as well as I copedwith it at the time, I think
there was something in my headjust stopping me from going that
extra mile in training.
It's like I lost the belief.
Extra mile in training.
It's like I lost the belief.
Some of the training sessionsthat you do are very tough and I
(25:24):
almost just couldn't pushmyself to that point where it
was really going to hurt mebecause I think I was protecting
a broken heart.
Sue Anstiss (25:31):
That's so interesting, isn't it?
And I can.
You can absolutely see that,can't you giving absolutely your
all for everything when it'snot quite as you always felt it
was?
Did you was coaching somethingyou always felt you might go
into?
Is it?
Was it something you're awareof?
I didn't realize you were 35 Ifeel like I have researched you,
I promise but I didn't realizeyou were 35 when you retired.
But had you thought aboutcoaching?
Jenny Meadows (25:53):
I mean, you've been a bit involved in coaching
anyway, yeah and strangely, itwas the last thing that I ever
thought I would do.
Oh, wow, yeah.
So I remember having aconversation with Trevor.
So in British athletics youhave your level one, level two
and level three awards.
So I did level one when I was21, straight off the back of
(26:15):
doing a university course, andthen the next year, at 22, I did
level two and then I think Iwas around about 28.
And I thought you know what?
I might as well finish this off.
I'm a perfectionist.
I'll do level three.
And it made me feel more securein myself.
If ever I was doing any kind ofmentoring or mentorship or any
(26:35):
master class of coaching, ifsomeone would ask me to go along
and just show them drills andtalk, I'd actually think, well,
I've got a coachingqualification.
You know, I'm not just turningup as an athlete, but living
with a coach.
You know, trevor, when Iretired I kind of thought we
were both retiring.
I don't know why I thought that.
And then he said to me thatsummer, obviously I'll still be
(26:58):
coaching and I thought, oh, oh,gosh, right, okay.
So it was the next year whereTrevor was still coaching and
then he was asking my advice alittle bit more, asking me to
mentor a few of the athletes.
British Athletics asked me tobe a team coach at some of the
junior championships, so workingwith the 18 and 19 year olds,
(27:21):
and I think it just reminds youthat actually, what you know is
the product of 30 years andsomething that you take for
granted is actually gold dust tosomebody else.
So I didn't know that otherpeople didn't know things you
know.
So for me, all of a sudden, Ithought, oh, I'm quite valuable
(27:43):
in this role.
People want to hear about it.
So a lot of what I did wasperiodic, probably joining the
(28:03):
group, which was in 2019, whichis a really nice way that she
joined the group, actually, andit shows a lot about Keely.
So we only live six to sevenmiles away from each other, so
it's always strong women.
Keely's mum, rachel, reached outto me I think we were friends
on Facebook or something likethat and she started asking me a
few questions and not a pushyparent at all.
(28:24):
I really liked her tone.
You know she didn't tell me oh,I've got this amazingly
talented daughter.
She was just asking me a fewquestions and I researched Keely
and I thought she what?
She wasn't a standout.
She was kind of fourths andfifths in the country and didn't
really get on the podium manytimes.
Or if she did, she might snatcha bronze.
(28:44):
And you know, she asked to jointhe group and as soon as I met
her I thought she has what ittakes.
She just had this lovelydemeanor about her, a
respectfulness, but she was justa winner.
Do you know, when you actuallyjust see somebody and think at
(29:04):
age 17, she's got all of theseattributes which I wouldn't have
had at 17.
And then she'd only justlearned to drive.
But her mom said to her right,if you want to change groups and
(29:29):
you want, you know, trevor tocoach you, you have to go and
have a word with your currentcoach.
And you know she drove to Joeand Margaret's house, who are
absolutely brilliant, and theywere in their 80s, and she drove
there ready to have this verydifficult conversation with them
, which at 17 must have beenvery tough.
But they're amazing.
And straight away they stoppedher and they actually said
(29:51):
actually keely, we're actuallythinking we can't take you to
that next level.
So we're thinking that maybeyou should ask jenny and trevor
could, could they help you?
Which is so, so wonderful thatthat happened, but just the very
fact that her mum didn't holdher hand and say, keely, you
need to go and do this and Keelywas prepared to do that.
I actually getting to knowKeely more.
(30:13):
It made me want to get more andmore involved in the coaching
and Trevor would ask my advice.
I've obviously walked thosesteps before that Keely was
going through.
So it really for me had been aslow burner to get involved, and
just because we've got niceathletes in the group it's made
me want to give more and more ofmy time.
Sue Anstiss (30:34):
And how has that relationship transitioned too?
Because obviously you havedifferent dynamics, don't you?
You're couple, you've got yourparents, and then also you've
gone from being that sort ofcoach athlete relationship to
now co-coaching.
So has that been easy totransition that through?
Jenny Meadows (30:54):
yeah, and I've got to say you know, trevor is
brilliant.
You know for for females tosucceed, you need really good
males who are prepared to, youknow, see the strengths in you
and see the qualities in you.
And Keely always says she can'tbe coached by a normal coach
and I would laugh and I thinkwhat does that mean?
(31:14):
But over the years, I think itmeans someone who's not just
talking about high performanceall the time, someone who
actually knows you talking abouthigh performance all the time,
someone who actually knows you,they know your strengths, they
know your weaknesses, they knowwhen to talk to you about
training and when to absolutelyleave it, and you know you're
not in that headspace today.
(31:35):
Also when to approach you aboutsomething, when to not approach
you and give you a call laterin the day, etc.
And I think it is.
You know, a lot of people saythose soft skills and I hate
that, because communication,emotional intelligence they are
not soft skills, they're reallyimportant skills and I think
(31:56):
that's the difference betweenreally strong coach-athlete
relationships and being able toput the human first.
So I do really thank Trevor andyou know, if he was listening
to this he'd be like don't,don't, thank me.
He's really grateful that I'vebecome more and more involved in
a journey and I guess the onething that I have probably done
(32:19):
and this has only been the last12 months is, you know, I've
kind of said to Trevor like wecan't keep saying this is Trevor
and Jen's group, we.
We almost need a name and anidentity and a brand.
And right at the end of myathletics career, the last two
years before I retired, I wasthinking you know what am I
going to do next?
And it absolutely was notcoaching in my head.
(32:42):
So I did a master's degree inum sports marketing and business
management.
Sue Anstiss (32:47):
Wow, like you do.
Yeah, just did a master's yeahand I did it.
Jenny Meadows (32:52):
I did it part-time, just like the last
two years in my career, so Ithink I've got that skill set.
So I've said to Trevor you know, we've decided to call
ourselves Emma Lubbin track club, which is the postcode of where
we're training in manchester atsports city, and keely herself
has, like, really got behindthat you know, and, and in fact
it was keely's dad, um dean, whowho came up with that name and
(33:16):
came up with a logo with, youknow, the worker bee which
manchester as a city of adopted,and and again, I guess it's my
values, which also, uh, the sameas the Hodgkinson values of
working hard.
You know everyone in Manchesteris busy as bees that's where it
comes from, and Keely herselfalways says nothing is given,
everything is is earned.
(33:36):
You know, you can have talentbut you've got to have the hard
work and, like we say, theresilience and the beliefs and
the values around you.
So I think it has just kind ofgrown quite organically that
I've just come more and moreinto the group.
Trevor is definitely the one whodoes all the plans and he
decides.
You know a monthly plan thatevery athlete gets, but he never
(33:58):
gives those out without mesense checking them, um, because
I guess I'm the one who's who'srun those sessions, or
sometimes he has new ideas andyou know, 99% of the time
they're absolutely brilliant.
But the odd time I look at themand I can kind of close my eyes
and I think, okay, if an athletedone that session Tuesday and
(34:19):
then you put that Thursday, oh,that's going to be quite, quite
tough to get yourself back upmentally and you know, then know
, then I'll just say, oh, couldwe spread that out a little bit?
You know, instead of two daysturnaround, like I think four
days turnaround will be a muchbetter result for that session
(34:46):
sound great.
And I also think he's reallygood because he also allows the
athletes almost to to have thatas well.
You never want an athleteobviously gaining full control
and then you know, picking thesessions that they should do.
But we definitely adopted thatkind of safe space.
So if an athlete does get theirtraining plan and they look at
something and it's somethingthat really worries them and
stands out and maybe they've hada bad experience on a session
(35:07):
previously, we're really proudthat they can come to us and say
, you know, I just want to checkthe understanding behind this
and we're very open to that,which is maybe why Keely doesn't
think we're normal coaches.
Sue Anstiss (35:21):
And how much do you think they've benefited the
athletes?
There are 25 athletes or so inyour group now the 25 yeah yes,
there is, and you're obviouslyhaving huge success and you've
we've mentioned keely, butgeorgia bell and sarah healy and
lewis davian was about half ofyour athletes last year had
international representation atsenior and junior.
How much do you think having amale and female coach leading
(35:43):
that group helps them as well?
And obviously we're doing a lotof work within the space of
female coaches and and promotingthat too, but that kind of
having both, do you think thathas a big impact for your
athletes?
Jenny Meadows (35:55):
yeah, absolutely I do, and I think part of the
reason that I never thought Iwould go into coaching and you
know, in athletics is therearen't a lot of female coaches,
especially not in the highperformance area.
We have a brilliant resourcecalled the Power of 10.
And you can go and you can lookat athletes in every discipline
(36:17):
in Great Britain, which isgreat and you do see, it's the
younger age groups, it's theunder 11, the under 13s, the
under 15s, and there's quite alot of athletes who have female
coaches.
But then you go up to thesenior team and at world
championship level.
If Great Britain would takemaybe 60 athletes to the world
championships, there's probablythree of them coached by females
(36:38):
, which is really poor and it'snot good enough.
In America, for example, in thecollegiate system, there's so
many female coaches and I wentout to Boston and New York
recently and just seeing thefemale coaches operate in that
area was so nice for me to see,because definitely the British
(37:01):
indoor championships that we'vehad recently I literally can see
.
Probably again, you know, lessthan five women in that space
versus 100 men.
It's so important.
Sue Anstiss (37:12):
It's so important that they're seen, isn't it Just
even being there?
I think it's like 10, 11% ofthe Olympic elite coaches are
female, and it hasn't changed inthe last 10, 15 years either,
has it?
Jenny Meadows (37:25):
it hasn't and there's some amazing women and
you know I've definitely hadconversations with, with some
women who have had athletes, youknow, coming on to some of the
junior teams, those under 20European or world junior teams,
and you know they've said to meoh, you know, I'm doing really
well, but I'll have to passthose athletes on soon and I've
literally grabbed them by thearm physically and be like, no,
(37:48):
you're doing such a great job,why, what are you missing?
Oh well, you know I knowthere's going to be a male come
over to me at some point and saythat I've never took anyone to
that level.
But it has to start somewhere.
Nobody has ever took anyone tothat next level before you have.
So it has to be like that.
So I think in our training group, um, there are some people,
(38:12):
naturally, who would come to mebefore Trevor and vice versa,
and I think it's just eitherpersonality or somebody who you,
you know, maybe just feel alittle bit more confident with.
I know Georgia Bell, forexample, georgia Hunter Bell.
Now she's got married, you knowshe calls us Jeff, jen and
(38:33):
Trevor.
She's kind of no matter who Igo to, they give me the same
answer, they're on the same page.
So she'll just.
We've got a little whatsappgroup with her and you know what
it's literally who's available,who's going to respond first,
and she goes with it.
She doesn't need to doublecheck, like, does the other one
think the same?
Like, whoever gives her theanswer, she's like you know I'll
, I'll go with it.
(38:54):
So I do think it is greatbecause there's lots of
different personalities.
Everyone's completely differentand if somebody just resonates
better with the other one, wedon't take offense.
Keely might FaceTime me aboutsomething that she's doing in
her life and it's nothing to dowith training.
And you know, sometimes I tellTrevor, sometimes I don't.
(39:15):
It's just a really niceenvironment.
But I've actually become reallypassionate about driving this
female coaching space becauseyou absolutely have to see it
and I was quite inspired when Iwent to America to see.
You know a lot of their teamsat collegiate level.
They'll have a male team and afemale team and it doesn't
(39:35):
necessarily have to be thefemale is the female coach, but
in every single collegiate teamin the US there's a female coach
and I think visibility is so,so important.
Sue Anstiss (39:47):
And we're so grateful to you for being a
patron of the Women's SportCollective, a new coaching hub
for female coaches.
I messaged you and you kind ofcame back the same day and said
yes, which was amazing, ofcourse.
And we have had an incredibleresponse from women across a
whole range of sports, which isbrilliant.
But, as we say, we've seen thatprogress, but we're not seeing
it necessarily in that genderequality at the top level of
(40:10):
coaches.
Really.
So, if you could, if you had amagic wand and you can do
anything and I realise it's areally complex question to ask
because it's about it's not justthe women, it is about the
ecosystem that exists.
It is about the ecosystem thatexists in this.
But but are there things thatyou've seen, especially within
athletics, that need to changeto enable us to see more of
those women retaining thoseathletes and that?
(40:30):
Sorry, I'm just jumping here,but that's really interesting,
isn't it?
That whole?
I hadn't even realized thatrecently until I've immersed
myself more in this space, but Ithink it's being poached by
others from you know theircoaches that they've had for a
long time, and then thoseathletes feeling that they,
they're not going to progress onthrough.
It was a lovely athlete, wasn'tit recently who came back to
his female coach in Wales andthen had huge success?
(40:50):
Jeremiah Azou yeah, I shouldknow his name, I don't and her
name but it was a fabulous thatwas celebrated like actually, of
course she could take you there, but actually being um kind of
sold, something that'sunattainable through a female
coach.
Jenny Meadows (41:04):
Yeah, I think it is that storytelling, because I
think it is.
There are so many positivestories but they are just not
really told.
And I am one, obviously.
You know I never feel like weshould push women up just for
the sake of it, but I do thinkthere has been some amazing
initiatives where we are tryingto empower people and we are
(41:26):
trying to give women women thatvoice.
So I do think pushing women'scoaching certificates, for
example, is is great.
I'm obviously willing to, toshare my experiences and maybe
even my experience of saying youknow, I've been accepted in
this space.
Well, I presume I've beenaccepted, I've just pushed
myself into this space.
Sue Anstiss (41:47):
You've just won the BBC Sports Personality Coach of
the Year.
I think you have been accepted.
Jenny Meadows (41:52):
And that in itself is so, so lovely, because
the last couple of weekendsI've been at championships and
so many parents, fans, coaches,officials the parents fans,
coaches, officials have said howamazing that was, one for the
sport of athletics to berecognized.
And look, there's no doubtcoaching in the sport of
athletics is not paid very well.
(42:13):
There's you're a volunteer andkeely's first olympic medal was
me and trevor were volunteers.
We found a couple of ways to beable to fund ourselves, but
we're not being paid money.
If you were, if you were in ina bigger sport.
So I think that's been amazingfor coaches, because so many
coaches have said that's givethem a real boost and really
(42:37):
helped.
You know, help them to think ohokay, if I do well in the sport
, it will be recognized, it willbe recognized nationally.
But I think, going back to thatfemale space, I think it is just
women empowering women, justthose informal conversations
where I say I physically grabpeople by the hand and go no,
stop it, don't adopt thatmindset.
(42:58):
You can, you can be absolutelyamazing.
And I think the Jeremiah Rizouwith his coach Helen is one of
those great stories and I'm gladthat it got to you, sue.
So that has obviously beenthere and that's publicized,
which is great, but I think itis just more women just being
prepared to be in that space and, just again, you know, what
(43:18):
this whole podcast is about isgetting those messages out to
people that women have got somany great skills and Trevor is
grateful that I am helping himbecause he cannot do this on his
own.
We've got a great number ofathletes and, like I say,
athletes differ through values,beliefs, things that they've
been through in life, and havingthat male and that female is
(43:41):
just a brilliant opportunity forpeople to gravitate towards
what they need to get the bestout of themselves.
Sue Anstiss (43:48):
And what's your ambition for the future, for you
personally as Jenny, in termsof your own development and
evolution and I know that you'realso a mother and you've got
the M11 track club and so on buthave you got ambition to get
more coaching qualifications andto do more in that space?
Jenny Meadows (44:03):
yeah, it's interesting because I think
sometimes you do forget yourselfand only a couple of weeks ago
I said to Trevor sometimes Ihave to remember that I'm Jenny,
so I used to be Jenny Meadowsthe athlete.
Then I was kind of Keely'scoach, trevor's wife, because
Trevor was getting all theplaudits at first before I was
fully engrossed in the coaching,and then Arabella's mum.
(44:24):
So I'm doing some.
I'm doing a little bit of workwith the BBC on some of the
athletics and it's somethingwhere I think you know what I
need this for myself.
People do remember me as anathlete and I think it's people
appreciate the whole full circlebecause I think they do know I
didn't always get the results Ideserved because of people
(44:47):
who've chose to cheat.
So now people think it's a.
You know, a few people havereached out and said it's just
so nice that I'm now involvedwith Keely and she's getting a
medal.
So the whole experience of meisn't being wasted and there is
some things that I would like todo.
So so I've been speaking toBritish Athletics recently.
We've just put together acoaching group.
(45:09):
We never had a coaching groupbefore and I think I was only
one of two women in the room.
There was about 50.
But you know I was one of thespokespeople who was talking to
the wider group.
So we're a group of ninecoaches.
There's two women on that groupmyself and another coach, kate
Rooney, who's a pole vault coach.
She's based at Loughborough andwe were speaking to the wider
(45:31):
group about what we would liketo do and one of the things that
I do really want to push isjust having more females in this
space.
I feel I'm definitely an all ornothing person, so I'm either in
it or I'm not.
So I fully integrated myselfinto coaching.
I even changed my bio onTwitter X and I put coach and my
(45:54):
brother even stopped me andsaid oh, you took things off
there.
You know you've not put thatyou're a commentator or that you
host events anymore, but Iguess it's because I'm really
just putting myself into thiscoaching space now.
So maybe it's a mindset changefor me that I have to say that's
what I'm doing, so then I canexcel at that.
But definitely getting morefemale coaches working together,
(46:18):
them feeling that they can moveup to that next level.
It's not going to notice, whichis great.
You know that BBC SportsPersonality Award is kind of
people in Europe know about itand I'm definitely getting
contacted.
Now.
Can I speak at a Europeanconference and can I go and talk
about this?
And obviously I'm giving asmuch as I can to my athletes,
(46:40):
but I am trying to find spacefor that Because athletes it's
their career and as much as I'mhelping them and I'm a coach, it
is about legacy and if I don'tdo my bit while I've got this
opportunity, then I'm not pavingthe way for others.
So, yeah, I'm desperatelytrying to make sure I find
enough time to to fuel thisagenda as well.
Sue Anstiss (47:02):
That's very exciting, isn't it?
And I do remember hearing youtalk about Keeley from Paris
last year.
I think they interviewed you anumber of times when they're
coming back and talking and soon and I was just wondering what
it was like being in Paris as acoach in comparison to how it
was as an athlete.
Is it as enjoyable, moreenjoyable?
Do you get more nervous?
Jenny Meadows (47:22):
More enjoyable because I did used to put a lot
of pressure on myself.
Um, with Keely I never getnervous because I just know
she's got that mindset.
And actually the day of theOlympic final we almost had a
little fallout because she wastelling me that she was really
(47:42):
going to go for it in the finaland try and run a PB.
She was trying to run oneminute 53.
And you never want to tell anathlete they don't think you can
do that.
But you know, I did put it toher that that was her third race
of the championships.
It wasn't a one-off race like aDiamond League.
She wasn't going to be pacedand the goal was to win that
(48:03):
gold medal.
And yeah, she kind of wasn'tentirely happy with what I said.
But then, warming up for therace, she was kind of like oh
yeah, I can feel that semi-finalin my legs, etc.
So it was definitely a case ofme meeting her family before the
race, her family and friends.
So many people came out and I,they were all nervous etc.
(48:26):
And I was like guys, look,she's gonna do it.
And they were like, oh, thankgoodness she've come and told us
.
I was like she's gonna do it,I'm not even bothered like.
I 100% know that she's gonna dothis and we've focused on it so
much.
Everything's in place, it'sgreat and to this day I have not
cried.
I just can't.
I've got no emotion, which isso sad because she just did what
(48:47):
I expected.
But Georgia, on the other hand,honestly, I acted in such an
unprofessional way that I didn'teven know I was possible.
I was stood on the seatscreaming and people behind me
were like why is that womandoing?
and I literally had to turnaround, go oh, I think, just won
the bronze medal.
She just won the bronze medaland I was way more excited about
(49:08):
that because it was exciting.
It was something that was ahope, but definitely not, you
know, um, absolutely pinning myhopes on it, and for me, that
was the sheer joy of being ableto, yeah, just enjoy something
and experience something, and Icould not have been more excited
if that was the sheer joy ofbeing able to, yeah, just enjoy
something and experiencesomething, and I could not have
been more excited if that was me.
(49:29):
So that shows me that I'm soexcited by this sport.
It's still got me, it stillgrabs me and that's why I want
to invest into it.
Sue Anstiss (49:43):
Thank you so much to jenny for sharing her story.
We look forward to working withher as we build the coaching
hub at the women's sportcollective.
You can find out more on ourwebsite at fearlesswomencouk if
you'd like to hear from moreextraordinary women like jenny.
There are over 200 episodes ofthe game changers podcast that
(50:04):
are all free to listen to onpodcast platforms or from our
website at fearlesswomencouk.
Guests have included femalecoaches from a range of sports,
including rugby, football,cricket, netball, hockey, tennis
, cycling and canoeing, alongwith elite athletes,
entrepreneurs, broadcasters,scientists, journalists, ceos
(50:25):
all women who are changing thegame in sport.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
can also find out more about theWomen's Sport Collective, a
free, inclusive community forall women working in sport.
We now have over 10,000 membersacross the world, so please do
come and join us.
The whole of my book Game On theUnstoppable Rise of Women's
(50:48):
Sport is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Every episode of Series 13 isme reading a chapter of the book
.
Thank you once again to SportEngland for backing the Game
Changers and the Women's SportCollective with a National
Lottery Award, and also to SamWalker at what Goes On Media,
who does such a brilliant job asour executive producer.
(51:08):
Thank you also to my lovelycolleague at Fearless Women,
kate Hannan.
You can find the Game Changerson all podcast platforms, so
please do follow us now and youwon't miss out on future
episodes.
Come and say hello on socialmedia, where you'll find me at
sue anstis.
(51:29):
The game changes.
Fearless women in sport.
Hello and welcome to The Game Changers.
I'm Sue Anstiss, and this isthe podcast where you'll hear
from trailblazing women in sportwho are knocking down barriers
and challenging the status quofor women and girls everywhere.
What can we learn from theirjourneys as we explore key
issues around equality in sportand beyond?
I'd like to start with a verybig thank you to our partner,
(00:24):
Sport England, who supportT heGame Changers podcast through a
national lottery award.
Today, I'm joined by theincredible Jenny Meadows, a
world-class middle distancerunner who is now an
award-winning coach, recentlyhonoured, alongside her husband,
as BBC Sports Personality Coachof the Year.
(00:47):
Jenny's best known for herbrilliant career on the track,
representing Great Britain onthe world stage with a huge
tally of medals.
Her talent, grit and tacticalbrilliance made her a firm
favourite with the fans and oneof the most respected athletes
in the sport.
Jenny's huge impact onathletics extends beyond her
racing days.
Since stepping off the track in2016, jenny's been involved in
(01:09):
broadcasting and taking onseveral board positions within
the sport, and is now fullyimmersed in a coaching role
alongside her husband, trevor,as part of the M11 track club.
They enjoyed huge success atlast year's Paris Olympics, with
all three of their athletesbringing home medals, including
Keeley Hodgkinson's stunninggold.
So, jenny, let me take you backto the beginning.
(01:34):
I'd love to know've just said,Sue, you know especially the
broadcasting.
Jenny Meadows (01:47):
That is something that I absolutely would never
have been able to do withoutsports.
I am the youngest of twochildren, so my brother, andrew,
is three years older than me,and he used to do all the
speaking for me in our family.
Sue Anstiss (02:32):
Play other sports, but athletics was the one that
you really loved or kind of whatwas your introduction to the
sport?
Jenny Meadows (02:38):
Well, really strangely and I don't agree with
this I only ever did athletics.
So, yeah, you know, and, andathletics, like I say, it really
just made me come out of myshell almost so.
Uh, mum and dad were greatgrowing up with me and my
brother, but you know, I alwayssay I had a little bit of a
sheltered life.
(02:59):
Mum and dad weren't reallyconfident, neither of them even
drove.
And yeah, I think my parentswere really good.
They really pushed us to seewhat our skill set was.
But I really showed myself.
As you know, every school,primary school has a sports day
and of course it is running,isn't it?
It's running, it's jumping, etc.
(03:20):
And I was quick.
So it was a case of once Ieventually convinced my mum.
You know, let me see how quickam I, you know, am I just the
fastest in my school?
Is there a club I can join, etc.
And once I convinced my mum totake me along to the club.
Um, I was just a runner and youknow, obviously I do think that
(03:40):
was the sport that I was alwaysgoing to excel in, but it was
always just athletics for me,and you started at 400, didn't
you?
Sue Anstiss (03:48):
And then you moved to 800.
I went the other direction.
I was an 800-meter runner and Imoved to four and four hurdles.
So I wonder what was theprocess for you in deciding?
Was it just the one that youwere best at, or did you enjoy
one more than the other?
Jenny Meadows (04:00):
Well, the really good thing for me is in my club
it was great, you know you, youhad to try everything.
So I was never going to be goodat throwing.
You know, I'm only small, I'm156 centimeters, so five foot
one and a little bit.
So, yeah, I was never going tothrow, but I was quite explosive
.
Um, I was quite good at jumping, you know, high jump, long jump
(04:22):
, etc.
But I think it was.
You know, I had that kind offast twitch.
I was pretty good at 100 and200, pretty good at 400.
But I think that 800 was asweet spot.
You know, I wasn't the greatestat cross country and I just
think it's where all my skillscame together at that.
The shortest of the middledistance events.
Sue Anstiss (04:42):
It was interesting researching you because I hadn't
realised you were 5'1" and Imust have known that you weren't
extraordinarily tall.
But when I was at school therewas a girl I can remember her
name, it was a long time ago forme, but Sarah Marchant who was
not very tall but was super,super fast as a sprinter.
So was there ever an optionthat you might have done more?
100, 200, the heptathlon, didyou in the jumps, did you look
(05:05):
at all of those things and so,just over time, you found your
way to 800?
.
Jenny Meadows (05:10):
Yeah, I think I did.
I think I always knew I wasgoing to be restricted in a
sense of you know I was nevergoing to be good enough to do
the high jump, for example.
But you know, you look atJessica Ennis.
You know, absolutelyunbelievable.
You know it's like she's gotsprings in those legs.
You know the height that shecan clear.
Obviously the bar height versusthe actual height is incredible
(05:31):
.
But you know, reallyinteresting.
Talking about height, I actuallythink that really restricted my
mindset for quite a long timein my career and it wasn't until
somebody actually noticed whenI used to stand on the start
line I would actually go on mytiptoes.
It was almost like I was tryingto find a couple of extra
inches.
Like you know I belong here.
(05:52):
But when I did do the 400s Idefinitely came to a point in my
career where I would actuallyhave to look up to the other
competitors and I would be, likeyou know what, I am built, a
little bit different.
And when I looked over at the800 girls I was kind of like I
think if anyone kind of lookedat my body shape, they looked
(06:13):
how I looked they probablywouldn't have put me in that 400
meter category.
So I think I naturally justevolved that 800, because that's
where I thought it looked likeI fitted and and obviously it
matched my physiology as well.
Sue Anstiss (06:26):
It's interesting, isn't it?
I know broadcasters would callyou the pocket rocket, and do
you ever feel you areunderestimated?
Because I guess it's theinternal side of how you felt
about yourself.
But did you use that to youradvantage, almost as you're
lining up on the start line andyou're not as tall as some of
the other girls there, did youfeel that was a almost like a
secret advantage for you too?
Jenny Meadows (06:48):
I think it's worked both ways.
I think when I was younger.
You know we're all so confidentwhen we're younger.
Of course I'd love to meet theyounger version of myself.
You know, I started at my clubJanuary 1989, so it was a few
months before my eighth birthday, and my mum always tells the
tale of when I went along thatfirst evening.
The coach said to me what is itthat you want to do?
(07:10):
And you know, the fully grownversion of me is five foot one a
little bit, so I don't know howtall I was at just before age
eight.
But apparently my response wasI want to go to the Olympics now
.
Yeah, he just meant what youwant to do tonight.
What group am I supposed to putyou in?
You know what.
You want to go to the OlympicsNow.
He just meant what you want todo tonight.
What group am I supposed to putyou in?
You know, what do you want todo?
And I was there, the Olympics,you know I had that burning
(07:32):
ambition and I think he justthought are you sprinting, are
you doing endurance?
You know, etc.
And it really sat in his mind.
And he said to my mom you know,I can see she's talented, but
she's definitely got thatmindset because she wants to go
to the Olympics.
But I think at that age, if Ilook back in my career, if
someone would say at the end ofyour career, you'll win a
(07:52):
European championships, you'llget a bronze in the world
championships, I think Iprobably would have thought that
was quite a disappointment.
I'm going to win three of theseOlympics, surely, and I'm going
to the world record.
But you know, you wish youcould keep that mindset
throughout life.
And I do definitely think,coming from a very supportive
(08:12):
family I have to say I know mymum is going to listen to this
but a family that were very wehad to step out of our comfort
zone when I became a goodathlete and my mum and dad, you
know, didn't really know whatthat took.
Like I say, you know theydidn't drive, so we had to rely
on public transport and I dothink all of that gave me some
(08:35):
unbelievable resilience.
You know, when I turned up atthe track I wasn't there to mess
around for that hour.
My mum and dad had, you know,invested in me financially and
put their effort into it, and soI think I had all the
determination that pocket rocketas I was younger.
But then I think lifeexperiences, you know, teach you
things.
You fall into those traps offeeling you're not as good as
(08:57):
other people.
And I definitely think inBritish athletics at the time
you know as well as me, beingsmall males were so dominant.
So if I look back at it, therewas a competition called the
Europa Cup and the men and thewomen joined forces and the men,
you know, one competitor perevent, the same for the women,
(09:18):
and they would actually do aseparate league table and the
men were the best in Europe byfar and the women, you know, say
there were 12 nations.
They were kind of ninth ortenth so they would therefore
bring the overall score maybedown to Great Britain came third
.
So I think, because therewasn't the outstanding role
models, there was definitelysome role models.
You know, I know Sally Gunnellreally well now.
(09:40):
You know her husband coachesand you know Sally, barcelona
1992, I, I was 11, I rememberthat race.
She beat sandra farm patrickfrom america and you know I
definitely thought sally gunnell, you know she's gone and done
it denise lewis, kelly holmes,but there just wasn't the amount
of women, there wasn't thedepth, they were kind of
(10:01):
standouts where the men therewere so, so many.
So I do think the combinationof you know that kind of theme
that we had in Great Britain themen were dominant.
I was small.
It really did take somethingfor me much later in my athletic
career.
You know, I started it justbefore age eight.
I won my first global medal at28 and I really think yeah, I
(10:24):
think it was a mindset, I thinkI just thought it shouldn't
happen to me.
What makes me feel this?
You know, young girl who'ssmall and everybody else thinks
that she even has has a place inthis sport.
So, you know, really interestedin my career, I adopted that
attitude for so long.
But now, later in my coachingcareer, I feel like I've become
(10:48):
the version of someone that Ineeded earlier in my life and
that's something I think I'mable to to give to the athletes
now.
Did you work with a?
Sue Anstiss (10:57):
sports psychologist at all in the early stages of
your career, because that doesfeel like it's a almost a mental
, not a blocker, but that kindof not believing in what you
were clearly capable of no, Ididn't.
Jenny Meadows (11:10):
Um, you know, and sports science, and you know,
all these support services thatwe've got the the, you know,
widely used now, um, it actuallywasn't till the year 2002, so
August, when I won that worldchampionship bronze medal.
It wasn't till the March ofthat year where Trevor actually
said to me there's a hugeblocker here, jen, you know, I
(11:31):
see you do incredible things onthe track in training and it's
just not transcending tocompetition.
And I think I just reallyreached that low where I thought
I could just train so much moreand just keep going and in
training, the evidence is there,but there's just something
stopping me.
So, yeah, it was literallyMarch 2009.
(11:51):
I just, you know, invested in insports psychology.
I worked with an amazing lady,sarah Broadhead, who used to
work under Steve Peters, thechimp paradox, and I was just at
that stage in my life where Iwas like I need something else
and for me, sarah just made meunderstand how my brain was
(12:12):
working.
It was kind of like, oh mygoodness, like now I understand
what is stopping me fromreaching those performances and
it literally just changed myresults going forwards.
Sue Anstiss (12:23):
And if we go back to look at your career, who were
the biggest rivals on the trackat that time and how did they
shape your career too, becausethat also contributes to the
winning of medals and places infinals and so on.
Jenny Meadows (12:36):
Yeah, it does.
I mean at the time I alwaysused to think of it as a
negative, but it was a hugepositive that I had such a good
domestic rivalry.
So there was three Britishathletes there was Marilyn Okoru
, gemma Simpson and myself.
So, fascinatingly, I only everbecame the British champion once
.
Once, which a lot of peopleindoors, um, I was the British
(13:01):
champion, I think seven, seventimes.
But indoors, um, sorry,outdoors, I yeah, there was
something about thosechampionships to me again which
were a real, a real blocker.
So I went to many championshipsbut only actually won that one
british title.
But what I am proud about isonce I went to all the
championships.
I was always the best performerat the championships.
(13:21):
So trevor did a good job ofgetting making sure I best
performer at the championships.
So Trevor did a good job ofmaking sure I peaked at the
championships.
So that brilliant domesticrivalry was great.
I coach some athletes fromother nations at the moment and
they're the best in their nationand they almost haven't got
that kind of hunger.
They've not got that motivationwhen they go to the national
(13:43):
championships because they knowthey're going to win it and you
know it's it's, it's not anadrenaline-fueled weekend.
So I am grateful for it, eventhough at the time I thought it
was quite annoying.
And then again, on the women's800 meters, there were so many
brilliant women internationallyand there wasn't always a
standout athlete.
So you did know.
You know, if I get this right,if I get my tactics right, if I
(14:06):
get my strategy right, there's,there's medals up for grabs.
So I do look back now at that,you know, healthy competition
and think at the end of the dayit did get the best out of me.
Unfortunately, my career when Iwas at my very best was tainted
with, with a few issues with alot of people, doping.
Obviously, the Russian dopingscandal kind of broke just when
(14:30):
I was towards the end of mycareer and I've had subsequent
medal upgrades or not so whichhas been obviously quite
frustrating.
And then the whole differencesin sexual development, you know,
came around as well.
So I kind of thought, you know,at the top of my career I
probably didn't quite get theresults that maybe I deserved.
(14:52):
But the counter argument tothat is it did really challenge
me.
I can look myself in the mirrorand think there was nothing
that I could do that could haveprepared me any better.
So I did me as well as I coulddo me.
But yeah, there's probablysilvers and bronzes in my medal
cabinet and lots of bits wherethose results were quite tainted
(15:16):
and they should have been alittle bit better.
Sue Anstiss (15:18):
Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it?
I would say, in researching you, it kind of reminds you of
where we were at that time.
As you say, you were deniedmedals by athletes that you were
then subsequently received them, but not in terms of being on a
podium and having a nationalanthem, et cetera, but in some
cases they were upgraded, but Ihadn't even realised this.
(15:38):
But the World Championships in2011,.
You reached the semifinals, butall three Russian athletes that
denied you qualification forthe final were then disqualified
for doping, so you didn't evenget a chance to get to the final
.
How do you even begin to dealwith that as an athlete?
I mean, you're very mature theway you phrased how.
You did the best you could asan athlete, but where?
Jenny Meadows (16:03):
you phrased how you did the best you could as an
athlete, but did you everquestion the point of it or
think about stopping the sport?
You know, really thankfully, Ithink I was quite naive to it.
So again, maybe it is thatmindset of well, who do I think
I am to think I'm the best inthe world, so anyone who's
meeting me must be cheating.
You know, that definitely wasnever in my mindset.
But you know, I trained really,really, really hard.
(16:26):
I generally believe there wasno one who trained harder than
than I trained.
It was a huge, hugedisappointment for me not to
make that final in in the worldchampionships in Daegu and I had
a couple of sleepless nightsafter it and again, I didn't
presume people had cheated.
I really thought I failed somuch so sad, isn't it?
that's so sad, yeah, it's so sad.
I look back on myself and thisis what I'm saying I wish I
(16:47):
would have had the version thatI have now become for the other
athletes, because it was verytough with Trevor and I, you
know husband and wife and andcoached an athlete, and that's
not a situation that either ofus ever really wanted.
But I just think Trevor was thebest person for me in my career
because that other coach that Iwas looking for didn't exist.
(17:08):
So I guess Trevor saw me whereother people didn't see me and
they didn't see my value.
And coaching is aboutrelationships and understanding,
which he's great at doing.
But it literally was kind of anemergency situation.
After that world champs, youknow, we got all the team
together and we had a wholeright look in your area, what
(17:29):
did we miss?
What about your area?
What you know?
What could we have done better?
And we really after that weretrying to change things.
And you know we thought, ok,the bar has been risen and we've
not, you know, stepped up to it.
And then it was a couple ofyears later when it then was
emerging about, you know, notjust people cheating, but it was
(17:50):
systematic doping.
It was a whole country who youknow were behind that, a whole
national governing body, whichyou could never think that was
even possible, and I think itwas more.
Then, when it hit me that Iactually thought, oh my goodness
, you know.
After then I really pushed mybody and I was already training
(18:11):
enough and I thought I wasmissing something.
And then that led to a coupleof years of injuries and
heartache etc.
And I almost thought I was goodenough, I didn't need to change
anything.
It's just people chose to do itthe wrong way and thankfully,
social media was still in itsinfancy, when, when I was an
athlete, you know, I'd only heara few comments and it's that
(18:34):
old thing, isn't it?
There's 100 comments, there's99 positives and there was just
one comment.
I remember someone writing on aforum of oh, you know, jenny
Meadows, she's getting this, youknow, government money from the
national lottery.
She, she hasn't turned up.
She should give it back.
She should pay it back and it,you know, I felt a real
responsibility.
I, because I was getting paid tobe a full-time athlete, I I
(18:56):
took it seriously and I probablytook it too seriously.
Every hour of the day I wasthinking what should I be doing?
Is there something else I couldI could be doing?
I I would never relax and youknow, watch a movie on the couch
because I'd stretch and I'd be,you know, thinking what can I
do?
So I feel a little bit sad whenI look back at it and I kind of
think I didn't particularlyenjoy my journey in the sport.
(19:19):
I put a lot of pressure onmyself, I felt a huge
responsibility and you know, ifI think about mental health, I
probably wasn't in in the bestmental health, but my parents
had always just told me that youwork hard, and I think I just
worked hard, worked hard, workedhard, and no one ever told me
you know what Jenny have a relax.
I just worked hard and that'sworked hard, and no one ever
(19:39):
told me you know what Jenny havea relax.
Sue Anstiss (19:40):
I just worked hard and that's obviously something
you're bringing, as you said,bringing through to your
athletes.
Today we talk a lot about thesuccess in elite sport being
related to resilience and you,as you alluded, you certainly
had your fair share of injuriesand tough setbacks too.
So are you able to use that now?
(20:00):
I'm thinking about thisactually in the last couple of
weeks or so, with Keely's injury, ahead of the Keely Classic and
missing out on that worldrecord attempt, but has it
changed?
Has your experience of injuriesand dealing with injuries
helped how you're able tosupport your athletes today?
Jenny Meadows (20:12):
100%.
One of the first setbacks Keelyhad in her career it was the
World Indoor Championships.
It would have been three orfour years ago now and I can
really really remember it.
I was actually at the event andI was commentating and I had
kind of a 20 minute rest betweensessions and she phoned me and
she said OK, so I've got anissue with my quad.
(20:36):
What would you have done whenyou were an athlete?
And I said well, you know what?
It's a very different questionthat you're asking me, because
when I was an athlete I wouldhave ran.
But if you're asking me what Iwould recommend you to do is I
don't think you should run.
It's.
It's a huge risk.
If we look at this year and welook at the end of the year and
(20:58):
if we look back and we thinkwhat were the highlights, we
wouldn't be thinking about theworld indoor championships, we'd
be thinking about the outdoorequivalent.
That is the biggest goal.
And I think I've definitelybeen able to use experience and
remove emotion.
You know I give them a lot ofemotion when they need it, but
when it's decision making andit's, you know, strong
(21:20):
leadership, I can just be reallyunemotional.
And and the impressive thingabout Keely is you know she's
way less emotional than I waswhen I was an athlete the injury
she's got now, you know, um, wehelped her with it.
We went to her apartment and wespoke to her about it and you
know she cried.
(21:41):
She cried a lot and that's good, because I like to see that.
I like to see someonepassionate, I like it that
Keely's the Olympic champion andshe's not resting on a laurel,
she's looking to do the nextthing.
She wants to be one of the bestof all time and maybe that's
why she is going to be one ofthe best of all time.
And maybe that's why she isgoing to be one of the best of
all time because she has gotthat switch off where she can be
(22:05):
professional and then she knowsshe needs to listen to her team
and let them go away and do allthe work for her.
I kind of really didn't havethat, that team, and because it
was me and Trevor together, Ikind of lived in that team and I
couldn't really walk away fromit all the time.
So it was quite suffocating attimes.
But that wasn't Trevor, thatwas me, it was my hard work and
(22:27):
not being able to separate it.
But yeah, as a coach, I'mdefinitely a lot better at being
able to say to people no, dothat go away.
Be a human.
We want you to be happy.
Keely's gone off and done lotsof really exciting things in
london, but actually I think I'mstill the one with a bit of an
empty stomach and I'm thinking,oh, you know, it's such a shame
(22:50):
that she's injured and thisworld record was on and still
I'm watching her do all theseamazing things, you know, which
is great, but I think I'm theone who's still suffering from
the injury more than she is.
Sue Anstiss (23:02):
We hear a lot about sportswomen and men struggling
with that transition from beingan athlete into life after sport
.
So how was that experience foryou personally?
Did you know it was time toretire when you did?
Jenny Meadows (23:15):
Yeah, I did and I cope with it really well
actually, and you always want togo out of the sport, in your
own terms.
So, because I identified as anathlete you know I did it for 28
years I always used to think Ican't imagine not being an
athlete.
I literally cannot imaginewaking up and that's not what I
(23:37):
do.
And I felt like that for a longperiod of my life, probably 25
of the 28 years.
But I think age comes to all ofus, unfortunately.
So I retired quite late.
It was especially for 800meters.
I was 35.
But the next generation hadcome along and you know I could
(23:59):
see it.
Um, I'm really proud.
The last year of my career Istill get did get an Olympic
qualification time, but nobodyelse in the world did who were
my age.
So that's, that's prettyimpressive.
But I think it's when I had theV35 next to my name.
You know, veteran I thinkthat's a terrible term In a lot
(24:22):
of sports and in athletics theycall it master's athletics.
I think master is such a nicerterm for it.
But yeah, I think it was likeveteran, oh gosh, right, okay,
I'm a veteran now.
And my body did start finding ithard to recover between
training sessions did startfinding it hard to recover.
(24:42):
Between training sessions.
I picked up a few kind ofmuscular injuries which I'd
never had in my career, ever.
It was just like my body wastelling me.
But ultimately I do look back.
I think I did retire out ofheartbreak.
So the story about the Russiansdoping broke in 2014 and I
(25:03):
retired in 2016.
And I think as well as I copedwith it at the time, I think
there was something in my headjust stopping me from going that
extra mile in training.
It's like I lost the belief.
Extra mile in training.
It's like I lost the belief.
Some of the training sessionsthat you do are very tough and I
(25:24):
almost just couldn't pushmyself to that point where it
was really going to hurt mebecause I think I was protecting
a broken heart.
Sue Anstiss (25:31):
That's so interesting, isn't it?
And I can.
You can absolutely see that,can't you giving absolutely your
all for everything when it'snot quite as you always felt it
was?
Did you was coaching somethingyou always felt you might go
into?
Is it?
Was it something you're awareof?
I didn't realize you were 35 Ifeel like I have researched you,
I promise but I didn't realizeyou were 35 when you retired.
But had you thought aboutcoaching?
Jenny Meadows (25:53):
I mean, you've been a bit involved in coaching
anyway, yeah and strangely, itwas the last thing that I ever
thought I would do.
Oh, wow, yeah.
So I remember having aconversation with Trevor.
So in British athletics youhave your level one, level two
and level three awards.
So I did level one when I was21, straight off the back of
(26:15):
doing a university course, andthen the next year, at 22, I did
level two and then I think Iwas around about 28.
And I thought you know what?
I might as well finish this off.
I'm a perfectionist.
I'll do level three.
And it made me feel more securein myself.
If ever I was doing any kind ofmentoring or mentorship or any
(26:35):
master class of coaching, ifsomeone would ask me to go along
and just show them drills andtalk, I'd actually think, well,
I've got a coachingqualification.
You know, I'm not just turningup as an athlete, but living
with a coach.
You know, trevor, when Iretired I kind of thought we
were both retiring.
I don't know why I thought that.
And then he said to me thatsummer, obviously I'll still be
(26:58):
coaching and I thought, oh, oh,gosh, right, okay.
So it was the next year whereTrevor was still coaching and
then he was asking my advice alittle bit more, asking me to
mentor a few of the athletes.
British Athletics asked me tobe a team coach at some of the
junior championships, so workingwith the 18 and 19 year olds,
(27:21):
and I think it just reminds youthat actually, what you know is
the product of 30 years andsomething that you take for
granted is actually gold dust tosomebody else.
So I didn't know that otherpeople didn't know things you
know.
So for me, all of a sudden, Ithought, oh, I'm quite valuable
(27:43):
in this role.
People want to hear about it.
So a lot of what I did wasperiodic, probably joining the
(28:03):
group, which was in 2019, whichis a really nice way that she
joined the group, actually, andit shows a lot about Keely.
So we only live six to sevenmiles away from each other, so
it's always strong women.
Keely's mum, rachel, reached outto me I think we were friends
on Facebook or something likethat and she started asking me a
few questions and not a pushyparent at all.
(28:24):
I really liked her tone.
You know she didn't tell me oh,I've got this amazingly
talented daughter.
She was just asking me a fewquestions and I researched Keely
and I thought she what?
She wasn't a standout.
She was kind of fourths andfifths in the country and didn't
really get on the podium manytimes.
Or if she did, she might snatcha bronze.
(28:44):
And you know, she asked to jointhe group and as soon as I met
her I thought she has what ittakes.
She just had this lovelydemeanor about her, a
respectfulness, but she was justa winner.
Do you know, when you actuallyjust see somebody and think at
(29:04):
age 17, she's got all of theseattributes which I wouldn't have
had at 17.
And then she'd only justlearned to drive.
But her mom said to her right,if you want to change groups and
(29:29):
you want, you know, trevor tocoach you, you have to go and
have a word with your currentcoach.
And you know she drove to Joeand Margaret's house, who are
absolutely brilliant, and theywere in their 80s, and she drove
there ready to have this verydifficult conversation with them
, which at 17 must have beenvery tough.
But they're amazing.
And straight away they stoppedher and they actually said
(29:51):
actually keely, we're actuallythinking we can't take you to
that next level.
So we're thinking that maybeyou should ask jenny and trevor
could, could they help you?
Which is so, so wonderful thatthat happened, but just the very
fact that her mum didn't holdher hand and say, keely, you
need to go and do this and Keelywas prepared to do that.
I actually getting to knowKeely more.
(30:13):
It made me want to get more andmore involved in the coaching
and Trevor would ask my advice.
I've obviously walked thosesteps before that Keely was
going through.
So it really for me had been aslow burner to get involved, and
just because we've got niceathletes in the group it's made
me want to give more and more ofmy time.
Sue Anstiss (30:34):
And how has that relationship transitioned too?
Because obviously you havedifferent dynamics, don't you?
You're couple, you've got yourparents, and then also you've
gone from being that sort ofcoach athlete relationship to
now co-coaching.
So has that been easy totransition that through?
Jenny Meadows (30:54):
yeah, and I've got to say you know, trevor is
brilliant.
You know for for females tosucceed, you need really good
males who are prepared to, youknow, see the strengths in you
and see the qualities in you.
And Keely always says she can'tbe coached by a normal coach
and I would laugh and I thinkwhat does that mean?
(31:14):
But over the years, I think itmeans someone who's not just
talking about high performanceall the time, someone who
actually knows you talking abouthigh performance all the time,
someone who actually knows you,they know your strengths, they
know your weaknesses, they knowwhen to talk to you about
training and when to absolutelyleave it, and you know you're
not in that headspace today.
(31:35):
Also when to approach you aboutsomething, when to not approach
you and give you a call laterin the day, etc.
And I think it is.
You know, a lot of people saythose soft skills and I hate
that, because communication,emotional intelligence they are
not soft skills, they're reallyimportant skills and I think
(31:56):
that's the difference betweenreally strong coach-athlete
relationships and being able toput the human first.
So I do really thank Trevor andyou know, if he was listening
to this he'd be like don't,don't, thank me.
He's really grateful that I'vebecome more and more involved in
a journey and I guess the onething that I have probably done
(32:19):
and this has only been the last12 months is, you know, I've
kind of said to Trevor like wecan't keep saying this is Trevor
and Jen's group, we.
We almost need a name and anidentity and a brand.
And right at the end of myathletics career, the last two
years before I retired, I wasthinking you know what am I
going to do next?
And it absolutely was notcoaching in my head.
(32:42):
So I did a master's degree inum sports marketing and business
management.
Sue Anstiss (32:47):
Wow, like you do.
Yeah, just did a master's yeahand I did it.
Jenny Meadows (32:52):
I did it part-time, just like the last
two years in my career, so Ithink I've got that skill set.
So I've said to Trevor you know, we've decided to call
ourselves Emma Lubbin track club, which is the postcode of where
we're training in manchester atsports city, and keely herself
has, like, really got behindthat you know, and, and in fact
it was keely's dad, um dean, whowho came up with that name and
(33:16):
came up with a logo with, youknow, the worker bee which
manchester as a city of adopted,and and again, I guess it's my
values, which also, uh, the sameas the Hodgkinson values of
working hard.
You know everyone in Manchesteris busy as bees that's where it
comes from, and Keely herselfalways says nothing is given,
everything is is earned.
(33:36):
You know, you can have talentbut you've got to have the hard
work and, like we say, theresilience and the beliefs and
the values around you.
So I think it has just kind ofgrown quite organically that
I've just come more and moreinto the group.
Trevor is definitely the one whodoes all the plans and he
decides.
You know a monthly plan thatevery athlete gets, but he never
(33:58):
gives those out without mesense checking them, um, because
I guess I'm the one who's who'srun those sessions, or
sometimes he has new ideas andyou know, 99% of the time
they're absolutely brilliant.
But the odd time I look at themand I can kind of close my eyes
and I think, okay, if an athletedone that session Tuesday and
(34:19):
then you put that Thursday, oh,that's going to be quite, quite
tough to get yourself back upmentally and you know, then know
, then I'll just say, oh, couldwe spread that out a little bit?
You know, instead of two daysturnaround, like I think four
days turnaround will be a muchbetter result for that session
(34:46):
sound great.
And I also think he's reallygood because he also allows the
athletes almost to to have thatas well.
You never want an athleteobviously gaining full control
and then you know, picking thesessions that they should do.
But we definitely adopted thatkind of safe space.
So if an athlete does get theirtraining plan and they look at
something and it's somethingthat really worries them and
stands out and maybe they've hada bad experience on a session
(35:07):
previously, we're really proudthat they can come to us and say
, you know, I just want to checkthe understanding behind this
and we're very open to that,which is maybe why Keely doesn't
think we're normal coaches.
Sue Anstiss (35:21):
And how much do you think they've benefited the
athletes?
There are 25 athletes or so inyour group now the 25 yeah yes,
there is, and you're obviouslyhaving huge success and you've
we've mentioned keely, butgeorgia bell and sarah healy and
lewis davian was about half ofyour athletes last year had
international representation atsenior and junior.
How much do you think having amale and female coach leading
(35:43):
that group helps them as well?
And obviously we're doing a lotof work within the space of
female coaches and and promotingthat too, but that kind of
having both, do you think thathas a big impact for your
athletes?
Jenny Meadows (35:55):
yeah, absolutely I do, and I think part of the
reason that I never thought Iwould go into coaching and you
know, in athletics is therearen't a lot of female coaches,
especially not in the highperformance area.
We have a brilliant resourcecalled the Power of 10.
And you can go and you can lookat athletes in every discipline
(36:17):
in Great Britain, which isgreat and you do see, it's the
younger age groups, it's theunder 11, the under 13s, the
under 15s, and there's quite alot of athletes who have female
coaches.
But then you go up to thesenior team and at world
championship level.
If Great Britain would takemaybe 60 athletes to the world
championships, there's probablythree of them coached by females
(36:38):
, which is really poor and it'snot good enough.
In America, for example, in thecollegiate system, there's so
many female coaches and I wentout to Boston and New York
recently and just seeing thefemale coaches operate in that
area was so nice for me to see,because definitely the British
(37:01):
indoor championships that we'vehad recently I literally can see
.
Probably again, you know, lessthan five women in that space
versus 100 men.
It's so important.
Sue Anstiss (37:12):
It's so important that they're seen, isn't it Just
even being there?
I think it's like 10, 11% ofthe Olympic elite coaches are
female, and it hasn't changed inthe last 10, 15 years either,
has it?
Jenny Meadows (37:25):
it hasn't and there's some amazing women and
you know I've definitely hadconversations with, with some
women who have had athletes, youknow, coming on to some of the
junior teams, those under 20European or world junior teams,
and you know they've said to meoh, you know, I'm doing really
well, but I'll have to passthose athletes on soon and I've
literally grabbed them by thearm physically and be like, no,
(37:48):
you're doing such a great job,why, what are you missing?
Oh well, you know I knowthere's going to be a male come
over to me at some point and saythat I've never took anyone to
that level.
But it has to start somewhere.
Nobody has ever took anyone tothat next level before you have.
So it has to be like that.
So I think in our training group, um, there are some people,
(38:12):
naturally, who would come to mebefore Trevor and vice versa,
and I think it's just eitherpersonality or somebody who you,
you know, maybe just feel alittle bit more confident with.
I know Georgia Bell, forexample, georgia Hunter Bell.
Now she's got married, you knowshe calls us Jeff, jen and
(38:33):
Trevor.
She's kind of no matter who Igo to, they give me the same
answer, they're on the same page.
So she'll just.
We've got a little whatsappgroup with her and you know what
it's literally who's available,who's going to respond first,
and she goes with it.
She doesn't need to doublecheck, like, does the other one
think the same?
Like, whoever gives her theanswer, she's like you know I'll
, I'll go with it.
(38:54):
So I do think it is greatbecause there's lots of
different personalities.
Everyone's completely differentand if somebody just resonates
better with the other one, wedon't take offense.
Keely might FaceTime me aboutsomething that she's doing in
her life and it's nothing to dowith training.
And you know, sometimes I tellTrevor, sometimes I don't.
(39:15):
It's just a really niceenvironment.
But I've actually become reallypassionate about driving this
female coaching space becauseyou absolutely have to see it
and I was quite inspired when Iwent to America to see.
You know a lot of their teamsat collegiate level.
They'll have a male team and afemale team and it doesn't
(39:35):
necessarily have to be thefemale is the female coach, but
in every single collegiate teamin the US there's a female coach
and I think visibility is so,so important.
Sue Anstiss (39:47):
And we're so grateful to you for being a
patron of the Women's SportCollective, a new coaching hub
for female coaches.
I messaged you and you kind ofcame back the same day and said
yes, which was amazing, ofcourse.
And we have had an incredibleresponse from women across a
whole range of sports, which isbrilliant.
But, as we say, we've seen thatprogress, but we're not seeing
it necessarily in that genderequality at the top level of
(40:10):
coaches.
Really.
So, if you could, if you had amagic wand and you can do
anything and I realise it's areally complex question to ask
because it's about it's not justthe women, it is about the
ecosystem that exists.
It is about the ecosystem thatexists in this.
But but are there things thatyou've seen, especially within
athletics, that need to changeto enable us to see more of
those women retaining thoseathletes and that?
(40:30):
Sorry, I'm just jumping here,but that's really interesting,
isn't it?
That whole?
I hadn't even realized thatrecently until I've immersed
myself more in this space, but Ithink it's being poached by
others from you know theircoaches that they've had for a
long time, and then thoseathletes feeling that they,
they're not going to progress onthrough.
It was a lovely athlete, wasn'tit recently who came back to
his female coach in Wales andthen had huge success?
(40:50):
Jeremiah Azou yeah, I shouldknow his name, I don't and her
name but it was a fabulous thatwas celebrated like actually, of
course she could take you there, but actually being um kind of
sold, something that'sunattainable through a female
coach.
Jenny Meadows (41:04):
Yeah, I think it is that storytelling, because I
think it is.
There are so many positivestories but they are just not
really told.
And I am one, obviously.
You know I never feel like weshould push women up just for
the sake of it, but I do thinkthere has been some amazing
initiatives where we are tryingto empower people and we are
(41:26):
trying to give women women thatvoice.
So I do think pushing women'scoaching certificates, for
example, is is great.
I'm obviously willing to, toshare my experiences and maybe
even my experience of saying youknow, I've been accepted in
this space.
Well, I presume I've beenaccepted, I've just pushed
myself into this space.
Sue Anstiss (41:47):
You've just won the BBC Sports Personality Coach of
the Year.
I think you have been accepted.
Jenny Meadows (41:52):
And that in itself is so, so lovely, because
the last couple of weekendsI've been at championships and
so many parents, fans, coaches,officials the parents fans,
coaches, officials have said howamazing that was, one for the
sport of athletics to berecognized.
And look, there's no doubtcoaching in the sport of
athletics is not paid very well.
(42:13):
There's you're a volunteer andkeely's first olympic medal was
me and trevor were volunteers.
We found a couple of ways to beable to fund ourselves, but
we're not being paid money.
If you were, if you were in ina bigger sport.
So I think that's been amazingfor coaches, because so many
coaches have said that's givethem a real boost and really
(42:37):
helped.
You know, help them to think ohokay, if I do well in the sport
, it will be recognized, it willbe recognized nationally.
But I think, going back to thatfemale space, I think it is just
women empowering women, justthose informal conversations
where I say I physically grabpeople by the hand and go no,
stop it, don't adopt thatmindset.
(42:58):
You can, you can be absolutelyamazing.
And I think the Jeremiah Rizouwith his coach Helen is one of
those great stories and I'm gladthat it got to you, sue.
So that has obviously beenthere and that's publicized,
which is great, but I think itis just more women just being
prepared to be in that space and, just again, you know, what
(43:18):
this whole podcast is about isgetting those messages out to
people that women have got somany great skills and Trevor is
grateful that I am helping himbecause he cannot do this on his
own.
We've got a great number ofathletes and, like I say,
athletes differ through values,beliefs, things that they've
been through in life, and havingthat male and that female is
(43:41):
just a brilliant opportunity forpeople to gravitate towards
what they need to get the bestout of themselves.
Sue Anstiss (43:48):
And what's your ambition for the future, for you
personally as Jenny, in termsof your own development and
evolution and I know that you'realso a mother and you've got
the M11 track club and so on buthave you got ambition to get
more coaching qualifications andto do more in that space?
Jenny Meadows (44:03):
yeah, it's interesting because I think
sometimes you do forget yourselfand only a couple of weeks ago
I said to Trevor sometimes Ihave to remember that I'm Jenny,
so I used to be Jenny Meadowsthe athlete.
Then I was kind of Keely'scoach, trevor's wife, because
Trevor was getting all theplaudits at first before I was
fully engrossed in the coaching,and then Arabella's mum.
(44:24):
So I'm doing some.
I'm doing a little bit of workwith the BBC on some of the
athletics and it's somethingwhere I think you know what I
need this for myself.
People do remember me as anathlete and I think it's people
appreciate the whole full circlebecause I think they do know I
didn't always get the results Ideserved because of people
(44:47):
who've chose to cheat.
So now people think it's a.
You know, a few people havereached out and said it's just
so nice that I'm now involvedwith Keely and she's getting a
medal.
So the whole experience of meisn't being wasted and there is
some things that I would like todo.
So so I've been speaking toBritish Athletics recently.
We've just put together acoaching group.
(45:09):
We never had a coaching groupbefore and I think I was only
one of two women in the room.
There was about 50.
But you know I was one of thespokespeople who was talking to
the wider group.
So we're a group of ninecoaches.
There's two women on that groupmyself and another coach, kate
Rooney, who's a pole vault coach.
She's based at Loughborough andwe were speaking to the wider
(45:31):
group about what we would liketo do and one of the things that
I do really want to push isjust having more females in this
space.
I feel I'm definitely an all ornothing person, so I'm either in
it or I'm not.
So I fully integrated myselfinto coaching.
I even changed my bio onTwitter X and I put coach and my
(45:54):
brother even stopped me andsaid oh, you took things off
there.
You know you've not put thatyou're a commentator or that you
host events anymore, but Iguess it's because I'm really
just putting myself into thiscoaching space now.
So maybe it's a mindset changefor me that I have to say that's
what I'm doing, so then I canexcel at that.
But definitely getting morefemale coaches working together,
(46:18):
them feeling that they can moveup to that next level.
It's not going to notice, whichis great.
You know that BBC SportsPersonality Award is kind of
people in Europe know about itand I'm definitely getting
contacted.
Now.
Can I speak at a Europeanconference and can I go and talk
about this?
And obviously I'm giving asmuch as I can to my athletes,
(46:40):
but I am trying to find spacefor that Because athletes it's
their career and as much as I'mhelping them and I'm a coach, it
is about legacy and if I don'tdo my bit while I've got this
opportunity, then I'm not pavingthe way for others.
So, yeah, I'm desperatelytrying to make sure I find
enough time to to fuel thisagenda as well.
Sue Anstiss (47:02):
That's very exciting, isn't it?
And I do remember hearing youtalk about Keeley from Paris
last year.
I think they interviewed you anumber of times when they're
coming back and talking and soon and I was just wondering what
it was like being in Paris as acoach in comparison to how it
was as an athlete.
Is it as enjoyable, moreenjoyable?
Do you get more nervous?
Jenny Meadows (47:22):
More enjoyable because I did used to put a lot
of pressure on myself.
Um, with Keely I never getnervous because I just know
she's got that mindset.
And actually the day of theOlympic final we almost had a
little fallout because she wastelling me that she was really
(47:42):
going to go for it in the finaland try and run a PB.
She was trying to run oneminute 53.
And you never want to tell anathlete they don't think you can
do that.
But you know, I did put it toher that that was her third race
of the championships.
It wasn't a one-off race like aDiamond League.
She wasn't going to be pacedand the goal was to win that
(48:03):
gold medal.
And yeah, she kind of wasn'tentirely happy with what I said.
But then, warming up for therace, she was kind of like oh
yeah, I can feel that semi-finalin my legs, etc.
So it was definitely a case ofme meeting her family before the
race, her family and friends.
So many people came out and I,they were all nervous etc.
(48:26):
And I was like guys, look,she's gonna do it.
And they were like, oh, thankgoodness she've come and told us
.
I was like she's gonna do it,I'm not even bothered like.
I 100% know that she's gonna dothis and we've focused on it so
much.
Everything's in place, it'sgreat and to this day I have not
cried.
I just can't.
I've got no emotion, which isso sad because she just did what
(48:47):
I expected.
But Georgia, on the other hand,honestly, I acted in such an
unprofessional way that I didn'teven know I was possible.
I was stood on the seatscreaming and people behind me
were like why is that womandoing?
and I literally had to turnaround, go oh, I think, just won
the bronze medal.
She just won the bronze medaland I was way more excited about
(49:08):
that because it was exciting.
It was something that was ahope, but definitely not, you
know, um, absolutely pinning myhopes on it, and for me, that
was the sheer joy of being ableto, yeah, just enjoy something
and experience something, and Icould not have been more excited
if that was the sheer joy ofbeing able to, yeah, just enjoy
something and experiencesomething, and I could not have
been more excited if that was me.
(49:29):
So that shows me that I'm soexcited by this sport.
It's still got me, it stillgrabs me and that's why I want
to invest into it.
Sue Anstiss (49:43):
Thank you so much to jenny for sharing her story.
We look forward to working withher as we build the coaching
hub at the women's sportcollective.
You can find out more on ourwebsite at fearlesswomencouk if
you'd like to hear from moreextraordinary women like jenny.
There are over 200 episodes ofthe game changers podcast that
(50:04):
are all free to listen to onpodcast platforms or from our
website at fearlesswomencouk.
Guests have included femalecoaches from a range of sports,
including rugby, football,cricket, netball, hockey, tennis
, cycling and canoeing, alongwith elite athletes,
entrepreneurs, broadcasters,scientists, journalists, ceos
(50:25):
all women who are changing thegame in sport.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
can also find out more about theWomen's Sport Collective, a
free, inclusive community forall women working in sport.
We now have over 10,000 membersacross the world, so please do
come and join us.
The whole of my book Game On theUnstoppable Rise of Women's
(50:48):
Sport is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Every episode of Series 13 isme reading a chapter of the book
.
Thank you once again to SportEngland for backing the Game
Changers and the Women's SportCollective with a National
Lottery Award, and also to SamWalker at what Goes On Media,
who does such a brilliant job asour executive producer.
(51:08):
Thank you also to my lovelycolleague at Fearless Women,
kate Hannan.
You can find the Game Changerson all podcast platforms, so
please do follow us now and youwon't miss out on future
episodes.
Come and say hello on socialmedia, where you'll find me at
sue anstis.
(51:29):
The game changes.
Fearless women in sport.
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