August 24, 2025 • 49 mins
Diane Edwards (Modahl) was one of Britain’s brightest middle-distance stars, a Commonwealth gold medallist and four-time Olympian whose remarkable career was thrown into turmoil when she was wrongly accused of doping in 1994. What followed was a devastating two-year battle to clear her name – a fight that cost her financially, emotionally, and professionally – but could not break her spirit.
In this compelling and emotional conversation, Diane shares:
- Growing up in Manchester as the daughter of Jamaican parents and discovering her talent for athletics
- The golden years of her career, winning Commonwealth gold and setting a British record over 800m
- The traumatic moment her life changed forever when she was falsely accused of doping
- The brutal cost – financially, emotionally, and reputationally – of proving her innocence
- Why she still hasn’t received an apology from UK Athletics to this day
- Her remarkable resilience in returning to international competition and representing Great Britain again
- The powerful work she now leads to create opportunities for young people in sport
This is a story of extraordinary talent, unthinkable injustice, and relentless determination to fight for truth and fairness in sport.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sue Anstiss (00:03):
Hello and welcome to The Game Changers.
I'm Sue Anstiss and this is thepodcast where we meet the
fearless women driving change insport.
From breaking records tobreaking down barriers, these
trailblazers are challenging thestatus quo for women and girls
everywhere.
Each episode we dive intopowerful conversations that
explore not just theirincredible journeys but the
(00:24):
bigger issues shaping equalityin sport and far beyond.
A huge thank you to ourpartners at Sport England who
support The Game Changerspodcast through a national
lottery award.
My guest today is Diane Edwards(Modhal), a remarkable middle
distance runner who representedGreat Britain at four Olympics,
(00:47):
world Championships and EuropeanChampionships, while also
winning gold, silver and bronzemedals at the Commonwealth Games
.
A former British record holder,diane was one of our most
celebrated athletes in the 80sand early 90s, admired for her
grit, determination and tacticalbrilliance over 800 metres.
But at the height of her careerin 1994, Diane's life was
(01:10):
turned upside down when she waswrongly accused of doping.
Flown home from theCommonwealth Games on the very
day she was due to defend hertitle, Diane became front page
news for all the wrong reasons.
What followed was a harrowingand protracted battle to clear
her name and, despite beingexonerated two years later, the
(01:30):
cost, emotionally andfinancially was staggering.
Yet, remarkably, Diane returnedto international competition,
winning Commonwealth Bronze in98 and going on to represent
Team GB once again at the SydneyOlympics in 2000.
Today, diane channels herexperience using sport as a
(01:51):
catalyst to support young people, working with organisations
including Greater ManchesterSport England and the Diane
Maddow Foundation.
So, Diane, you grew up inManchester, a daughter of
Jamaican parents, so tell me alittle bit about your early
years, what family life was likefor you?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (02:12):
So I'm one of seven.
I'm the youngest of seven kids.
I've got two brothers and foursisters, and my parents left
everything behind, everythingthey knew in Jamaica to make a
better life for themselves andlanded in Mosside, Manchester,
which is where I grew up, wheremy family, a lot of my family,
(02:34):
still live.
It was a beautiful upbringing.
As much as I can remember, itwas a family that was full of
music, of love, of sport, greatfood, culture all the things
that I think is fairly typicalin a Caribbean household.
Sue Anstiss (02:52):
And what sort of young girl were you?
How would your school friendshave described you?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (02:59):
Boring.
.
..
Absolutely.
I was quite quiet because, youknow, I had six siblings ahead
of me.
So by the time I came around, Ithink I was sort of pretty much
left to my own devices.
I wasn't popular at all becausemy sisters and brothers, when
(03:19):
they were going out at night tonightclubs when they shouldn't
have been going out Mum and dadwould come to me and they'd say
where are the girls?
You know they should have beenin by now.
And I'd say, oh, they're at theWest Indian Centre or they're
out so-and-so partying, and theywould hate me.
But in my mind I was just doingwhat I was told, which was to
(03:40):
tell the truth, you know, but Iwas not popular.
So I was quite boring quiet,yeah, but actually that was okay
, that was fine with me.
Sue Anstiss (03:50):
And you mentioned kind of sport in family life.
So how did sport play a part?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (03:54):
Sport played a massive part in our
upbringing, and I always saythis when I sort of reflect on
my childhood.
There were three things thatwere really important growing up
Church, so we went to Sundayschool every Sunday.
Music Anytime you walked intoour house, there will be music
playing in every single room,including the bathroom.
(04:17):
And sport.
My only memories of sport waswatching it, and my dad would
really come alive when he waswatching sport and we'd all be
huddled around this black andwhite telly.
We'd be watching gianthaystacks wrestling, we'd be
watching the horse racing,boxing, athletics whatever was
(04:38):
on, we would be watching.
And so sport clearly sort ofwas an important part of the
culture that I was growing up in, and it really started from
there, just planted a seed ofexcitement, of energy, of drama,
and it was all there.
Sue Anstiss (04:55):
And how do you feel that upbringing shaped your
values and your ambitions as ayoung woman?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (05:08):
young woman, I would say the values
that my parents sort ofinstilled in us were almost lit
daily.
So I would see my fatherleaving for work half past four
every morning, taking two busesto go to the factory where my
dad was a laborer.
So he would roll pastry and ifhe were on this call Sue, he
would tell you and me everythingthere is to know about short
crisp pastry, sausage rolls,apple pies all this sort of
(05:31):
stuff.
He would roll pastry and he didthat job for 25 years and his
resilience, his commitment, histimekeeping was impeccable.
He would come home from work atfive o'clock at night, having
done the early shift, and getinto fixing the car or do
something around the home.
(05:52):
And the other thing that Iremember really well was my mom
being highly motivated.
She was a nurse.
She dedicated 25 years to theNHS and did the tough shifts.
Actually, she would workthrough the night, leave at
eight o'clock in the evening andcome back at eight o'clock in
the morning when we were gettingready for school.
(06:13):
And what I learned from thosetwo was hard work, diligence,
focus, commitment, enjoy whatyou do.
And so the impression it had onme, subconsciously.
I mean, I didn't automaticallygo out and say I must work hard,
I must work hard, but I thinkit sort of seeps in naturally
(06:34):
when you see how hard yourparents are working.
And I live by those values.
Now, I'm not the best timekeeper, don't hold me to that,
but I do try to be focused andhard working in everything I do.
Sue Anstiss (06:46):
Your incredible sporting talent was spotted by a
coach from Sale Harriers whenyou were just 11 years old.
So what do you remember aroundaround that time and why
athletics that was such amagical time for me.
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (06:59):
So I went to school in my side it was
then called Ducey High School,it's now Manchester Academy and
during a PE lesson thisvolunteer had been invited to
come and watch that lesson.
And at the end of that lesson Iremember we were running on a
marked out concrete car parkbasically it barely was 400
(07:22):
meters and there was a group ofus doing this PE lesson and at
the end of it Alan Robertshaw,this stranger who I didn't know.
He came over to to me and hesaid and I will always, always
remember this he said you've gotpotential.
Would you like to join arunning club?
And I'm 11 years old, it's myfirst year in high school, I'm
(07:48):
having fun, I'm enjoying myselfin this afterschool club.
But I wasn't clever.
I did not know what potentialwas, I did not know what a
running club was, but I said yesbecause I didn't want to be
embarrassed.
And then for seven years, twicea week, every week, alan picked
(08:09):
me up from our home, where welived in Longsight, and drove me
to Sail Harriers in Cheshire.
And that's where that journeystarted.
And I will forever be gratefulto Miss Whittaker, my PE teacher
, whose name I just learnedrecently because I just couldn't
remember her name.
(08:30):
And, ironically, I met herdaughter recently at a
networking event and, wow, itwas amazing.
And Alan Robertshaw indebtedfor life for that opportunity
that they gave me.
Sue Anstiss (08:42):
And what was it like at Sail Harriers in the
kind of 70s and 80s?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (08:47):
Well, what I remember about Sail
Harriers then was that it wasabsolutely fun but it was hard.
What I was being asked to dodidn't make sense.
So I remember turning up atCrossford Bridge where it was a
cinder track.
Um, I didn't know that, thetrack was 400 meters and the
(09:08):
coach would say, right, we'regoing to do 600s today and we're
going to run as hard as we can,and then you'll stop, and then
you'll do it again and I wouldsay to him so where do I start
and where do I finish?
Not having a clue.
And he he'd say you start overthere, which was a 200 meter
line.
You're going to run one fulllap, go past that line where you
(09:30):
started, and then do another200 meters.
And I think what I learned therewas just the ability of
compliance.
It sounds a bit strange,doesn't it?
But doing what I was was told.
And so Alan would just break itdown for me and help me to
understand what was being asked.
So it was fun, but it was hard,but I kept coming back.
(09:52):
So it actually it worked.
Sue Anstiss (09:55):
And 800 meters was your event, sort of a brutal
tactical race.
It was actually a distance Iran before I moved to Four
Hurdles and I realised, as Iresearched you, we're actually
exactly the same age, so wecould have been competing at
National League.
I competed for Feltham AthleticClub at the time and I never
made it to the English school,so I wasn't.
(10:15):
I think I'd have been abouthalf a lap.
221 was my PB.
I'd have been about half a lapbehind you.
But what do you think it wasabout the 800 metres?
What was it that made you sogood at that distance?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (10:25):
Yeah, as you say, the 800 meters is
brutal because you've got tohave the speed of a 400 meter
runner and the strength of amiler, which is why it's a
middle distance race.
And I think when I was littlewhere we used to live in
Longside my dad, every summer heused to take me, my brothers,
(10:47):
my sisters and eventually thelocal kids who lived in our
neighborhood for relay races onthis patch of grass behind our
house every summer, and I wouldalways come in last.
I never won anything, but itwas fun and he was possibly the
best coach I ever had, becausehe understood incentives and
(11:08):
there was always an ice creamvan waiting for us at the end of
the training.
It wasn't really training, wewere just having relay races.
But even though I wasn't winningand I was being consistently
beaten, I would always want todo it again and again and again,
because I enjoyed what I wasdoing.
And so by the time I sort ofunderstood what the distance was
(11:32):
as an 800 meter runner, I wouldjust recall the fact that I was
enjoying myself, and so if Ikept going, eventually I would
become better and I woulddevelop, and that's exactly what
happened.
So I do credit my dad for thoseearly years of just developing
(11:53):
resilience but also creating anenvironment, without even
knowing it, where I felt Ibelonged.
I could do something that I waspotentially good at and get a
nice scream at the end of it.
But you know, as I went through, it was about trying to win and
get better.
Sue Anstiss (12:11):
Jumping ahead from those early days, in 1990 you
won Commonwealth gold inAuckland and you also broke the
English record for the 800meters.
So obviously a big year.
But what did it mean to you andyour family as well, I guess,
your mum and dad in becomingthat, getting that British
record for you?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (12:29):
Oh, it was an incredible year.
Before winning that gold medal.
I remember sitting in thestadium listening to anthems of
other countries being knockedout in the semifinals, not
making it to the final and thennot even winning a medal.
So it was tough, and so, by thetime I won that gold medal in
(12:52):
Auckland, new Zealand, it was ahuge sense of relief initially
that finally, finally, thispotential that I'd been told I
had was realized.
But it was also a moment ofpride for my family mom, dad,
brothers, sisters, my coach atthat time, norman Poole.
(13:12):
It was an incredible feeling ofpride, but also emotion, that
the hard work, the many, manyyears of hard work, paid off and
it was just amazing.
Sue Anstiss (13:24):
And you went unbeaten by any British woman
for six seasons, which justfeels incredible to sustain that
level of performance.
So for you personally, where isthat balance between the
physical training and thatmental discipline, the two
combined, the balance for me waslearnt, I think, over the years
(13:48):
, because we often hear ofburnout, don't we?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (13:51):
and we tend to think burnout can be
physical.
Uh, you know, you're sofatigued you come to do a
session.
You've got absolutely nothingleft and you'll remember that
you, you know, you don't forgetwhere you go to set off and do a
session and you knowimmediately your body is saying
not today.
But I think there's also themental burnout of expectation,
(14:15):
of pressure, of being on thisroller coaster, of wanting to be
the very best that you can be,but actually there are barriers
that stop you from doing that,whether it's finance, whether
it's yourself doubting yourselfand a lack of confidence.
But I think, maturity andlearning over the years, that
(14:39):
balance of if you're tired andyou know you are, respect that,
listen to your body and justdon't go to train that day, but
mentally having and beingsurrounded by people who love
you, who give you that platformof foundation on which to build
these dreams, and being able tobe vulnerable around those
(15:01):
people who love you and justletting it go.
Just let go and, you know,prepare for the next day.
Sue Anstiss (15:08):
Oh, I feel like I've had a.
That's a wonderful coaching initself there.
Today we're seeing a little bitof a golden era again for
British middle-eastern women,with the likes of Georgia
Hunter-Bell, kee Hildreth Jensenand Laura Muir and others.
So why do you think that is?
Does it come in these kind ofphases of athletes inspiring
others?
What do you think has made thathappen now?
Diane Edwards (Modhal (15:29):
inspiring others, or what do you think's
made that happen?
Now I think it does go incycles.
You know, sue, because Iremember the generation that I
belonged was also a goldengeneration of athletics.
So I was part of the generationwhere we had Sally Gunnell,
colin Jackson, linford Christiewas our team captain, yvonne
Murray, niswa Colgan, chrisAkabusi, derek Redman I say
(15:52):
these names and for me at least,it just brings back those
golden memories of thatgeneration where Team GB in
England were powerhouse.
We were to be feared becauseevery time we touched the track
we were consistent in ourperformances.
And I think we have come ageneration again where we now
(16:13):
understand what it means to win,what it takes to win.
I think the support is therenow.
Athletes understand that.
You know they have potential,absolutely.
But it takes a lot of hard work, consistency, to get there.
But I also think athletes aresupported in a good way.
(16:35):
They there are run clubs nowthey can be supported
financially.
The technology's there, we'regoing to see faster times
athletes continuing theircareers for longer, and that's
good, that's positive yeah, sopositive, isn't you?
Sue Anstiss (16:50):
it's kind of remarkable when you reflect that
you went to four olympic gamesand I was wondering, as an
athlete, do they feel verydifferent?
Or once you're there and you'reon the track, or in the warmer
period, do they feel much thesame?
When you're there to perform,they never feel the same.
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (17:05):
Actually , they all feel very, very
different, and the first one forme was 1988 in Seoul, south
Korea, and undoubtedly that wasthe best one, because that was
the dream to get to an OlympicGames.
And so, when I did, nothing wasever going to top that and, to
(17:25):
be fair, I was probably in thebest shape of my Olympic cycle
that I was in for the latterthree and the second one, in
Barcelona, I had a stressfracture coming into.
That Didn't go very well at all.
96 was really a comeback yearafter what had been a very
difficult couple of years for me, and then Sydney again injured
(17:49):
hamstring issues.
So yeah, they're all verydifferent, but the meaning, the
commonality between all four isjust the ability to compete with
the best athletes in the worldand try and do your best whilst
I was there.
Sue Anstiss (18:06):
And you mentioned there a kind of difficult couple
of years.
If you're happy to talk aboutthat, and you mentioned there a
kind of difficult couple ofyears, if you're happy to talk
about that and I alluded to itin the introduction there that
(18:27):
1994, the have known what, whathappened there.
So can you kind of talk usthrough, tell us a little bit
about what happened on the?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (18:36):
24th of August 1994 was the day that my
life changed forever and stillimpacts on my life and forever
will.
I was Victoria, canada, todefend my Commonwealth title.
I had won gold four yearspreviously.
I was in the best shape of mylife, I was the favorite to win
(19:00):
and I was excited.
And I remember waking up thatmorning and it was a typical
morning in the sense of typicalmorning, in the sense of I would
start my morning by going for awarm-up, run through my warm-up
, do a couple of miles, somestretching, some drills, and put
myself in a space ofpreparedness to start the
(19:22):
competition.
And that's what I did.
The sun was shining, the skywas blue and everything was
aligned, beautiful day, perfectfor running fast times.
And I was on my way back intothe Commonwealth Games village
and before I got to my room Iwas stopped by a team official,
sue Deaves.
(19:43):
I've known Sue since I was 15,for as long as I've been
competing for England, and shesaid Diane, I need to have a
word with you, I need to have aconversation with you.
And I remember saying to Suenot now, I've just come back
from my warmup, I need toprepare for my competition.
(20:03):
And she said no, I actually doneed to speak to you, diane, but
at this time I had my focushead on.
I was in my tunnel vision.
I knew what my routine was.
I wanted to sort of stick tothat, but she was really
insistent, bizarrely, weirdly.
And I went into her roomunwillingly and she did
(20:27):
something really unexpected.
She held my hands and shelooked directly into my eyes and
she said Diane, a drug test yougave nine weeks ago has tested
positive.
And I remember looking back atSue and saying I've got to go,
(20:48):
I've got to prepare for my race.
You've got the wrong athlete.
And we went back and forth, meinsisting she's got the wrong
athlete, sue still holding myhand, saying Diane, you know
I've seen the information, butit wasn't until she said in the
sternest of voices, she said no,diane, I have to pull you out.
(21:11):
That I realized it wasn't amistake.
She was talking to me and Iremember just waking up on the
floor, sue looking over me,patting my face, saying breathe,
diane, breathe, you mustbreathe.
And I don't know what happenedin the meantime, but I remember
(21:34):
I was lying on the floor,somebody raised my legs onto the
bed, doctor came in and theywere having this conversation
above my head.
I couldn't even understand orcomprehend what was going on.
I was sedated with Valium andthe next thing I knew I was on
(21:55):
an aeroplane heading back toHeathrow.
I wasn't able to go back to myroom, I didn't pack my own
clothes, I was taken into anofficial's room, and that was
the start of a nightmare.
Sue Anstiss (22:12):
And you were sedated because of the shock and
the impact of it on your body.
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (22:18):
Of hearing that news, I believe I
was sedated because they wereseverely worried about how I was
reacting.
I fainted, I lost consciousnessa number of times and I think
they were trying to justmaintain a level of calm.
My blood pressure I wasdropping in and out of
(22:39):
consciousness and I think therewas a decision made in order to
get Diane home safely.
We need to do that, and I wassent home with a nurse who had
Valium with her in case I neededmore, and we sat.
I don't know how long thejourney is from Canada to
Heathrow, but we sat in silence.
(23:01):
I'd lost my ability to speak.
The nurse was very kind andcalming and we arrived home.
Sue Anstiss (23:12):
And the headlines at the time were completely
brutal.
I remember reading them andseeing it on TV, but the
pressure you must have beenunder it's just hard to even
conceive, isn't it?
I read your book in preparationfor talking to you the
Dime-a-Dile Story and I justhadn't realised what you'd been
through.
Anyway, for me it was not arevelation because you realise
(23:33):
how awful it must have been.
But I think just reading it andyou're kind of sharing the
other side of it almost, ratherthan the public seeing it.
So how did you even begin tokind of cope with that trauma
and that feeling of isolation?
I just can't even imagine wheneveryone turns against you in
the media and the sport, butknowing that you're innocent,
(23:55):
you know it is hard to even getyour head around that.
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (23:58):
Yeah, how do I cope with that?
I think with family and withlove, because, to be fair, I
wasn't a Diana I'm speaking tonow.
I was almost in a trance, in adaze, and my husband at the time
(24:22):
, vicente, was a powerhouse ofsupport, of strength, and it
came at a huge cost to him.
But I remember I just wanted tounderstand what was actually
happening because I knew Iwasn't a chief, I knew I hadn't
(24:44):
taken drugs and I was trying tounderstand what happened between
the lawyer and my husband, whowere having conversations and
trying to map out where do we gofrom here?
And I think the way I survivedit and continue to survive every
(25:06):
day is quite simple.
Really, it's through the loveof my family.
When we landed in Heathrow, Iwas taken straight away to a
hospital and they did a numberof checks to make sure I was
able to be stable.
And when I was able to leavethe hospital, we weren't able to
(25:29):
go home because the press hadlanded on our house.
They had set up cameras thereand my sister said look, you've
got to come and stay with me.
My sister Barbara, I think sheput up with me for a good month
or so.
(25:49):
We just couldn't go home andshe just looked after me and
took care of me and us.
But then, as my strength cameback and my voice started to
regain a little bit, I hadactually written notes.
I'd written everything that Icould remember about how I was
feeling and I allowed the lawyer, tony Morton Hooper, at
(26:12):
Mishkonderweire, to help me putinto a plan what needed to
happen.
So he was saying to me justtell us everything you remember
from that race in Portugal anddevise this witness statement.
And as we were piecing the bitstogether, we were then able to
understand exactly what happenedto that sample.
Sue Anstiss (26:34):
But it was with, I think, love and strength that I
was able to survive that time,because there were times when I
didn't think I would make it andyou mentioned there your lawyer
, but the lawyers and thescientists I'm excited again in
reading more about you andlooking back at the lawyers and
the scientists.
Like I say again, in readingmore about you and looking back
(26:56):
at the history of it all, justthe depth of investment that
they made into disproving thisand doing more research to kind
of overturn the initial decision, because it wasn't as if it was
just once and immediately itwas overturned.
It was a very long kind ofbattle that went on and I think
that for me that felt positivepiece from this hideous story
(27:19):
was how that commitment of thoseindividuals to support you and
to really get to the bottom ofit and uncover what had happened
.
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (27:27):
What we learned was, when I gave the
sample after that competition inPortugal, the alkalinity of the
sample was tested, which istypical, and the alkalinity or
the pH level of that sample wasmeasured at around about seven.
But then, when it was reopenedand tested in the laboratory, it
(27:48):
had risen tenfold, anincredible lift in alkalinity to
almost 10.
So if you're a non-scientist itdoesn't really mean anything.
But what the scientists wereable to understand was a sample
that has been degraded to thatlevel means that somehow
bacteria or another materialchange has happened to that
(28:12):
sample to give rise to thatlevel of alkalinity in the
sample.
And so we were able to thenbacktrack and understand what
actually happened to this sample, from the time I gave it to the
time it was opened and testedin the laboratory.
And what the scientists, withtheir diligence and real
(28:34):
patience and unwillingness notto give up, was to understand
that the sample was left on awindowsill in a laboratory in
Portugal in the middle of July,in the height of the summer, for
72 hours, and that meant thatthe sample had become materially
(28:55):
degraded with bacteria.
And so, armed with thatevidence and with scientific
evidence, we went to the initialhearing in December in 1994 and
what they said to us at thehearing was an unreliable sample
can give rise to an unreliableresult.
(29:17):
And we said yes, exactly.
And they said no, that'sunheard of.
Dope testing has been inexistence for 30 years.
We've never heard anything likeit.
Go away, go ahead and prove it.
Way, go ahead and prove it.
(29:38):
And whilst they said that I wasat that time found guilty of a
doping offence, banned for life,for ever, competing in an
Olympic Games they were theheadlines.
She took the mick out of us.
She knew exactly what she wasdoing and we were devastated.
It was just such a difficultperiod because we knew, and what
the scientists knew was thatthe evidence was on our side.
(30:01):
And that's exactly what we hadto do.
We had to go out and prove thatthis sample, any sample that's
left degraded, can give rise toa false positive, and in my case
it was testosterone.
So what the scientists did wasthey took a sample from me.
They took a sample from aprofessional marathon runner and
(30:24):
a professional tennis player.
They were able to degrade allthree samples to the same level
that my sample was degraded inthat Lisbon laboratory.
We trained to a level offatigue, so similar amounts of
training that I was doing in thebuildup to that race.
Tennis player did the same,marathon runner did the same.
(30:45):
We tried to replicateeverything that could give us a
sense of what could havehappened to that sample.
And guess what happened?
All three samples gave rise toa false positive test of
testosterone, and so it was ahollow victory.
But what it meant was I wasvindicated at the appeal and
(31:08):
received an apology from theInternational Athletic
Federation.
But still, to this day, I'venever received an apology from
British athletics, uk athletics,and it's devastating because
I've never recognized the damage, the hurt, the harm that they
have caused and put me in myfamily.
(31:44):
Do you think that will ever come?
Do you think in your lifetimethat will come?
Will take ownership, will takeresponsibility for the role they
played in devastating my career, my reputation, my finance?
Not necessarily the people whoare in position now, because
(32:07):
there's been a huge change, butthe organization is the same and
I think it's waiting forsomeone brave enough, honest
enough, with integrity, to saywhat we did was wrong.
And we recognize that Diane didher part as an ambassador, as
(32:31):
an advocate for this sport, forthis country, and we're going to
recognise that, certainly withan apology.
So I remain hopeful, sue, but Idon't wake up every day
thinking is today the day?
Because I don't know.
I don't know whether it willever come.
Sue Anstiss (32:50):
And do you think that doesn't happen?
Because they worry that it'sadmitting a financial liability?
If they say sorry, are theyadmitting they did it wrong
Because you lost so much money,didn't you, in terms of fighting
that battle.
And we've talked about theamazing scientists and lawyers,
but they don't come cheaply tohave that much time and
(33:10):
investment to really dig,because a lot of the research
you had to get out and have donebecause it hadn't been done in
the past.
So I think you lost your house.
You had to remortgage your home.
I mean personally, thefinancial impact of that must
still reverberate with you today.
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (33:28):
We lost everything.
The case over two years and ourfight for compensation cost us
half a million pounds.
Do I look like a millionaire toyou?
You know, in all honesty, itwas devastating.
It crippled us financially andwhilst emotionally it will
(33:50):
always be difficult for me toput into words the cost of that,
financially there was a cost toit and I think you're right.
I think there's two elements whyI may never get that apology.
One is fear of a compensationclaim and the other is a
recognition that they were wrongand they caused real harm.
(34:15):
But you know, when we talkabout being human, I think there
is a human response to this andthey would never, ever be
looked upon as inadequate orvulnerable if they were able to
do the right thing byrecognizing the wrong, the harm
(34:37):
that they caused, because that'sa human thing to do and it's
the right thing to do.
And it would make an enormousdifference to me as a human
being, as a woman, as a mom, tobe able to live my life knowing
that everything we said allalong, that I was not a drug
chief, but to have thatrecognition would be worth so
(35:00):
much to me.
Sue Anstiss (35:02):
And there was what really surprised me, I think, in
reading more into it, was thisonus on you as the athlete, to
go out and pay for the researchto find it, rather than that
presumption of innocence untilit is proven.
So do you feel that sportsgovernance and those anti-doping
systems are better today interms of protecting athletes?
Could what happened to youhappen to another athlete today?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (35:24):
I'm not convinced that what happened to
me couldn't happen to anotherathlete today.
I'm not that close to the dottesting system as I once was,
but I do know that actually, asa result of the fight and the
personal cost to me, dot testingwas forever changed.
So chain of custody became evenmore important.
(35:48):
So chain of custody is howsamples are collected, how
samples are collected, how theyare stored, where and when.
That changed, as did the waysamples were tested in terms of
the alkalinity and thereliability of that sample once
it's opened.
So I'm not saying that it wasworth going through all of what
(36:11):
myself and my family wentthrough to change a dope testing
system, but I don't knowwhether the World Anti-Doping
System and the organizationtruly understand the impact of
the decisions that they make onathletes.
Now I'm not saying that thereare not people who cheat, but
(36:35):
what I am saying is, if you areinnocent and you are caught in
this web of saving the system asopposed to recognizing justice,
then the dope testing systemdoesn't stand for anything,
because unless there isintegrity in the system, there's
(36:56):
no integrity at all, and I amliving proof that the system
will go out of its way to backitself rather than do what's
right.
Sue Anstiss (37:07):
And you mentioned you were pregnant through some
of the kind of darkest time ofthat ordeal.
So how did pregnancy and thenmotherhood impact your
perspective and also your, yourstrength?
I mean, I just feel so manyathletes might have walked away,
might have kind of throw theirhands up and said that's that,
even knowing that they wereinnocent, but to keep on
(37:29):
fighting.
So did motherhood and becominga mother impact that in a
positive way?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (37:34):
If I didn't become a mother.
I don't think I'll be talkingto you today.
Dimani, our daughter, was ourhope.
She kept me going and whilst Iwas pregnant, we were going to a
court battle with the highcourts trying to claim
(37:56):
compensation, and it was roughbeing embroiled in the court
system.
You're a commodity.
They don't care how you feel,how you think, what you're
fighting for, what your futurelooks like.
You are and I was a commodity.
And having this baby, this tinybaby growing inside me, where
(38:18):
listen?
Sometimes I would wake up and Ijust wouldn't leave the bedroom
, I wouldn't leave the house forweeks and weeks and weeks.
I wouldn't do any of the basicnecessity of things because I
was done and I just didn't wantto carry on.
(38:38):
But Imani was our hope andcontinues to be our hope.
She's an amazing daughter.
She's incredible.
I'm so proud of her.
How old is she now?
So Imani's 29 now and she isironically, she's going to kill
me for saying this, but she'shead of legal services at wrecks
(38:58):
and football club and doingwonderful things there for that
club.
And we have two of the childrenas well.
If I don't mention them,they'll kill me as well.
So georgia is the youngest andshe is 17 and at college and
gisela is the middle child at 18and, you know, got a job and
(39:18):
doing amazing things, but theyare my hope.
Sue Anstiss (39:22):
I'm so blessed to have these girls in my life and,
uh, yeah, yeah and what do theyknow about that kind of period
in your life and how that'simpacted you?
I'm and I don't imagine youhaven't shared everything with
them, but it must have impactedthem too to know, I think, about
my own kids and how they wouldfeel about an injustice done to
(39:42):
me or, you know, my husband theywere so young I mean, the
latter two were not even born.
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (39:49):
Georgia and Gisela were not even born
when we were enduring this,imani grew up with it so, even
though she was a tiny baby, Icame back to sport after Imani
was born, and so she grew uparound two potentially very
angry, angry, bitter, determinedparents, but also, I think, two
(40:19):
parents who were trying to getback on track and do what we
loved.
But they don't really, if theydo know anything, understand, I
think, the extent to which itshaped who we became and how
then it affected them.
But the reality is it didhappen.
It continues to impact and, tobe fair, the things that I had
(40:42):
to endure because of that shapewho I am today and help me in my
decision making today.
Sue Anstiss (40:48):
Have you forgiven the people that were involved?
I was interested from youryoung family life and the
importance of religion and Godand faith and how that was
impacted.
Actually, it's beautiful.
I've referred a lot to yourbook, haven't you?
I was very moved by your book,but at the end of your book,
almost that questioning of whyhas this been put in my path and
(41:11):
the fact that you have had toendure so much.
Yes, I guess, going back to myquestion, but in terms of
forgiveness and moving on, wheredo you feel for the people that
were involved?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (41:22):
I can't forgive them.
I can't, I can't.
I think they robbed so muchfrom me, from us, and I just
can't find it in myself toforgive them.
(41:45):
And that doesn't mean that Idon't live a positive, happy,
productive life, which I do.
But for me to forgive themwould mean I've given up on the
(42:07):
hope of them, recognizing theharm that they caused.
But it would also mean givingup part of me and the damage
that that caused, and I'm notgoing to do that.
Sue Anstiss (42:23):
And I'll move on to more positive feelings of life
and where we are today.
You've held some incredibleleadership roles with Sport
England, Commonwealth GamesEngland.
You do a lot of work withGreater Manchester and the Young
Persons Taskforce.
So what's driven your work inthose spaces and the impact
you're having there.
My purpose.
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (42:45):
I think I'm driven by wanting to provide
an opportunity where there isno opportunity, and that goes
all the way back to that11-year-old girl.
So a chance meeting with astranger, with this volunteer,
you gave me an opportunity toweave out something that I
(43:08):
didn't even know I had.
What was this thing calledpotential?
I was just having fun.
So I think what I know now andI didn't really know it until
recently really but when Ireflect on my career, every
decision or every role that I'vetaken on has been around
(43:30):
opportunity, and so my work withAndy Burnham in the Greater
Manchester Combined Authority isaround leadership.
It's about how do we createmore and better environment for
underrepresented groups, womencoming from an ethnic background
.
How do we create moreopportunities for them and us to
(43:54):
influence the agenda, to bepart of the decision-making
structure, which is great andthat's really good fun.
My role at Sport England againvery similar I'm head of
inclusion England Talent Pathway.
So that's about ensuring thatthe teams and the athletes that
represent England and GreatBritain are representative of
(44:15):
the nation.
Do we recognize ourselves, dowe recognize their stories?
Do we recognize ourcircumstances as we watch the
Lionesses or as we watch ourrelay teams or our boxers,
whatever it is.
So my role is again workingalongside national governing
bodies and organisations,charities, to provide
(44:38):
opportunities for people tothrive and to be the very best
that they can be, and I love it.
Sue Anstiss (44:44):
I had a lovely quote from you where you talked
about the fact that talent iseverywhere, but opportunities
aren't.
It just really resonated withme so clearly.
That does excite you to knowthat you're able to do that for
so many young people.
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (44:58):
Yeah, you're right.
I tend to think about and enterany opportunity that I go into
with, not what is the lack, butwhere is the opportunity.
Because you know, talent iseverywhere, potential is
everywhere.
But how do we create theopportunity for people to access
(45:22):
what they need in order tobecome the best that they can be
?
And you know we will have heardof that saying you can't see it
, you can't be it Absolutelyright, but you also need to tag
on to that statement.
How do you create anopportunity to be it, to become
it, to fulfill that dream?
And I feel that I have aresponsibility to do that.
(45:48):
My early coach, alan Robertshaw,who told me I had potential,
that's exactly what he was doing.
He was breaking down barriersfor myself and other young
athletes who he recognized andidentified to have an
opportunity to fulfill thatpotential.
If he had said to me, diane,you've got potential, full stop,
(46:10):
that doesn't take my potentialor others anywhere.
So it's about the opportunityand creating a pathway for that
opportunity to thrive, and Ifeel I have an opportunity and a
responsibility to do that.
Sue Anstiss (46:25):
And, looking back, what do you feel most proud of
as an athlete and, obviously,mentor and a leader?
And I might take the motherpart out because I think as
mothers, we can all be proud asmothers, can't we?
But from a career perspective,what brings you most pride?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (46:40):
I don't know if this is going to answer
your question, but I'll give ita go.
The thing that I feel mostproud about is having two
parents who came from Jamaicaand demonstrated to me with
their actions what trueleadership looks like.
They made tough decisions, theyfollowed through on their
(47:02):
commitment and they worked hard.
So anything that I say to youand everything that I've said to
you in this conversation isirrelevant without basing it on
that foundation, and what theytaught me was so much that drove
me to be the person I am, andso what I'm most proud of is
(47:25):
just being able to be surroundedby people who I continue to
learn from professionally withinmy family and to be inspired by
, and with those things, whetheryou're a leader or a runner or
a mom, whatever it is, you canachieve whatever it is you want,
just surrounded by energy thatis positive and allows you to be
(47:50):
a true self.
Sue Anstiss (47:56):
Thank you to Diane for being so open and sharing
her story, and what a privilegeit was for me to talk to her for
the podcast, especially as I'vebeen such a huge fan of her as
an athlete in the 80s and 90s.
If you'd like to hear fromother trailblazing Olympic
athletes, my previous guestshave included the likes of Jess
(48:17):
Ennis-Hill, denise Lewis,jeanette Kwache and Katerina
Johnson-Thompson.
In fact, there are over 200episodes of the Game Changers
that are all free to listen toon podcast platforms or from our
website at fearlesswomencouk.
Guests include elite athleteslike those, along with coaches,
(48:38):
entrepreneurs, broadcasters,scientists, journalists and CEOs
all women who are changing thegame in sport.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
can also find out more about theWomen's Sport Collective, a
free, inclusive community forall women working in sport.
We now have over 13,000 membersacross the world, so please do
(49:00):
come and join us.
The whole of my book Game On theUnstoppable Rise of Women's
Sport is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Every episode of Series 13 isme reading a chapter of the book
.
Thank you once again to SportEngland for backing the Game
Changers and the Women's SportCollective with a National
Lottery Award and to Sam Walkerat what Goes On Media, who does
(49:24):
such a brilliant job as ourExecutive Producer.
Thank you also to my fantasticcolleague at fearless women,
Kate Hannon.
You can find the game changerson all podcast platforms, so
please do follow us now and youwon't miss out on future
episodes.
Do come and say hello on socialmedia, where you'll find me on
(49:45):
linkedin and instagram at sueanstis, the the game changes
Fearless women in sport.
Hello and welcome to The Game Changers.
I'm Sue Anstiss and this is thepodcast where we meet the
fearless women driving change insport.
From breaking records tobreaking down barriers, these
trailblazers are challenging thestatus quo for women and girls
everywhere.
Each episode we dive intopowerful conversations that
explore not just theirincredible journeys but the
(00:24):
bigger issues shaping equalityin sport and far beyond.
A huge thank you to ourpartners at Sport England who
support The Game Changerspodcast through a national
lottery award.
My guest today is Diane Edwards(Modhal), a remarkable middle
distance runner who representedGreat Britain at four Olympics,
(00:47):
world Championships and EuropeanChampionships, while also
winning gold, silver and bronzemedals at the Commonwealth Games
.
A former British record holder,diane was one of our most
celebrated athletes in the 80sand early 90s, admired for her
grit, determination and tacticalbrilliance over 800 metres.
But at the height of her careerin 1994, Diane's life was
(01:10):
turned upside down when she waswrongly accused of doping.
Flown home from theCommonwealth Games on the very
day she was due to defend hertitle, Diane became front page
news for all the wrong reasons.
What followed was a harrowingand protracted battle to clear
her name and, despite beingexonerated two years later, the
(01:30):
cost, emotionally andfinancially was staggering.
Yet, remarkably, Diane returnedto international competition,
winning Commonwealth Bronze in98 and going on to represent
Team GB once again at the SydneyOlympics in 2000.
Today, diane channels herexperience using sport as a
(01:51):
catalyst to support young people, working with organisations
including Greater ManchesterSport England and the Diane
Maddow Foundation.
So, Diane, you grew up inManchester, a daughter of
Jamaican parents, so tell me alittle bit about your early
years, what family life was likefor you?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (02:12):
So I'm one of seven.
I'm the youngest of seven kids.
I've got two brothers and foursisters, and my parents left
everything behind, everythingthey knew in Jamaica to make a
better life for themselves andlanded in Mosside, Manchester,
which is where I grew up, wheremy family, a lot of my family,
(02:34):
still live.
It was a beautiful upbringing.
As much as I can remember, itwas a family that was full of
music, of love, of sport, greatfood, culture all the things
that I think is fairly typicalin a Caribbean household.
Sue Anstiss (02:52):
And what sort of young girl were you?
How would your school friendshave described you?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (02:59):
Boring.
.
..
Absolutely.
I was quite quiet because, youknow, I had six siblings ahead
of me.
So by the time I came around, Ithink I was sort of pretty much
left to my own devices.
I wasn't popular at all becausemy sisters and brothers, when
(03:19):
they were going out at night tonightclubs when they shouldn't
have been going out Mum and dadwould come to me and they'd say
where are the girls?
You know they should have beenin by now.
And I'd say, oh, they're at theWest Indian Centre or they're
out so-and-so partying, and theywould hate me.
But in my mind I was just doingwhat I was told, which was to
(03:40):
tell the truth, you know, but Iwas not popular.
So I was quite boring quiet,yeah, but actually that was okay
, that was fine with me.
Sue Anstiss (03:50):
And you mentioned kind of sport in family life.
So how did sport play a part?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (03:54):
Sport played a massive part in our
upbringing, and I always saythis when I sort of reflect on
my childhood.
There were three things thatwere really important growing up
Church, so we went to Sundayschool every Sunday.
Music Anytime you walked intoour house, there will be music
playing in every single room,including the bathroom.
(04:17):
And sport.
My only memories of sport waswatching it, and my dad would
really come alive when he waswatching sport and we'd all be
huddled around this black andwhite telly.
We'd be watching gianthaystacks wrestling, we'd be
watching the horse racing,boxing, athletics whatever was
(04:38):
on, we would be watching.
And so sport clearly sort ofwas an important part of the
culture that I was growing up in, and it really started from
there, just planted a seed ofexcitement, of energy, of drama,
and it was all there.
Sue Anstiss (04:55):
And how do you feel that upbringing shaped your
values and your ambitions as ayoung woman?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (05:08):
young woman, I would say the values
that my parents sort ofinstilled in us were almost lit
daily.
So I would see my fatherleaving for work half past four
every morning, taking two busesto go to the factory where my
dad was a laborer.
So he would roll pastry and ifhe were on this call Sue, he
would tell you and me everythingthere is to know about short
crisp pastry, sausage rolls,apple pies all this sort of
(05:31):
stuff.
He would roll pastry and he didthat job for 25 years and his
resilience, his commitment, histimekeeping was impeccable.
He would come home from work atfive o'clock at night, having
done the early shift, and getinto fixing the car or do
something around the home.
(05:52):
And the other thing that Iremember really well was my mom
being highly motivated.
She was a nurse.
She dedicated 25 years to theNHS and did the tough shifts.
Actually, she would workthrough the night, leave at
eight o'clock in the evening andcome back at eight o'clock in
the morning when we were gettingready for school.
(06:13):
And what I learned from thosetwo was hard work, diligence,
focus, commitment, enjoy whatyou do.
And so the impression it had onme, subconsciously.
I mean, I didn't automaticallygo out and say I must work hard,
I must work hard, but I thinkit sort of seeps in naturally
(06:34):
when you see how hard yourparents are working.
And I live by those values.
Now, I'm not the best timekeeper, don't hold me to that,
but I do try to be focused andhard working in everything I do.
Sue Anstiss (06:46):
Your incredible sporting talent was spotted by a
coach from Sale Harriers whenyou were just 11 years old.
So what do you remember aroundaround that time and why
athletics that was such amagical time for me.
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (06:59):
So I went to school in my side it was
then called Ducey High School,it's now Manchester Academy and
during a PE lesson thisvolunteer had been invited to
come and watch that lesson.
And at the end of that lesson Iremember we were running on a
marked out concrete car parkbasically it barely was 400
(07:22):
meters and there was a group ofus doing this PE lesson and at
the end of it Alan Robertshaw,this stranger who I didn't know.
He came over to to me and hesaid and I will always, always
remember this he said you've gotpotential.
Would you like to join arunning club?
And I'm 11 years old, it's myfirst year in high school, I'm
(07:48):
having fun, I'm enjoying myselfin this afterschool club.
But I wasn't clever.
I did not know what potentialwas, I did not know what a
running club was, but I said yesbecause I didn't want to be
embarrassed.
And then for seven years, twicea week, every week, alan picked
(08:09):
me up from our home, where welived in Longsight, and drove me
to Sail Harriers in Cheshire.
And that's where that journeystarted.
And I will forever be gratefulto Miss Whittaker, my PE teacher
, whose name I just learnedrecently because I just couldn't
remember her name.
(08:30):
And, ironically, I met herdaughter recently at a
networking event and, wow, itwas amazing.
And Alan Robertshaw indebtedfor life for that opportunity
that they gave me.
Sue Anstiss (08:42):
And what was it like at Sail Harriers in the
kind of 70s and 80s?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (08:47):
Well, what I remember about Sail
Harriers then was that it wasabsolutely fun but it was hard.
What I was being asked to dodidn't make sense.
So I remember turning up atCrossford Bridge where it was a
cinder track.
Um, I didn't know that, thetrack was 400 meters and the
(09:08):
coach would say, right, we'regoing to do 600s today and we're
going to run as hard as we can,and then you'll stop, and then
you'll do it again and I wouldsay to him so where do I start
and where do I finish?
Not having a clue.
And he he'd say you start overthere, which was a 200 meter
line.
You're going to run one fulllap, go past that line where you
(09:30):
started, and then do another200 meters.
And I think what I learned therewas just the ability of
compliance.
It sounds a bit strange,doesn't it?
But doing what I was was told.
And so Alan would just break itdown for me and help me to
understand what was being asked.
So it was fun, but it was hard,but I kept coming back.
(09:52):
So it actually it worked.
Sue Anstiss (09:55):
And 800 meters was your event, sort of a brutal
tactical race.
It was actually a distance Iran before I moved to Four
Hurdles and I realised, as Iresearched you, we're actually
exactly the same age, so wecould have been competing at
National League.
I competed for Feltham AthleticClub at the time and I never
made it to the English school,so I wasn't.
(10:15):
I think I'd have been abouthalf a lap.
221 was my PB.
I'd have been about half a lapbehind you.
But what do you think it wasabout the 800 metres?
What was it that made you sogood at that distance?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (10:25):
Yeah, as you say, the 800 meters is
brutal because you've got tohave the speed of a 400 meter
runner and the strength of amiler, which is why it's a
middle distance race.
And I think when I was littlewhere we used to live in
Longside my dad, every summer heused to take me, my brothers,
(10:47):
my sisters and eventually thelocal kids who lived in our
neighborhood for relay races onthis patch of grass behind our
house every summer, and I wouldalways come in last.
I never won anything, but itwas fun and he was possibly the
best coach I ever had, becausehe understood incentives and
(11:08):
there was always an ice creamvan waiting for us at the end of
the training.
It wasn't really training, wewere just having relay races.
But even though I wasn't winningand I was being consistently
beaten, I would always want todo it again and again and again,
because I enjoyed what I wasdoing.
And so by the time I sort ofunderstood what the distance was
(11:32):
as an 800 meter runner, I wouldjust recall the fact that I was
enjoying myself, and so if Ikept going, eventually I would
become better and I woulddevelop, and that's exactly what
happened.
So I do credit my dad for thoseearly years of just developing
(11:53):
resilience but also creating anenvironment, without even
knowing it, where I felt Ibelonged.
I could do something that I waspotentially good at and get a
nice scream at the end of it.
But you know, as I went through, it was about trying to win and
get better.
Sue Anstiss (12:11):
Jumping ahead from those early days, in 1990 you
won Commonwealth gold inAuckland and you also broke the
English record for the 800meters.
So obviously a big year.
But what did it mean to you andyour family as well, I guess,
your mum and dad in becomingthat, getting that British
record for you?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (12:29):
Oh, it was an incredible year.
Before winning that gold medal.
I remember sitting in thestadium listening to anthems of
other countries being knockedout in the semifinals, not
making it to the final and thennot even winning a medal.
So it was tough, and so, by thetime I won that gold medal in
(12:52):
Auckland, new Zealand, it was ahuge sense of relief initially
that finally, finally, thispotential that I'd been told I
had was realized.
But it was also a moment ofpride for my family mom, dad,
brothers, sisters, my coach atthat time, norman Poole.
(13:12):
It was an incredible feeling ofpride, but also emotion, that
the hard work, the many, manyyears of hard work, paid off and
it was just amazing.
Sue Anstiss (13:24):
And you went unbeaten by any British woman
for six seasons, which justfeels incredible to sustain that
level of performance.
So for you personally, where isthat balance between the
physical training and thatmental discipline, the two
combined, the balance for me waslearnt, I think, over the years
(13:48):
, because we often hear ofburnout, don't we?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (13:51):
and we tend to think burnout can be
physical.
Uh, you know, you're sofatigued you come to do a
session.
You've got absolutely nothingleft and you'll remember that
you, you know, you don't forgetwhere you go to set off and do a
session and you knowimmediately your body is saying
not today.
But I think there's also themental burnout of expectation,
(14:15):
of pressure, of being on thisroller coaster, of wanting to be
the very best that you can be,but actually there are barriers
that stop you from doing that,whether it's finance, whether
it's yourself doubting yourselfand a lack of confidence.
But I think, maturity andlearning over the years, that
(14:39):
balance of if you're tired andyou know you are, respect that,
listen to your body and justdon't go to train that day, but
mentally having and beingsurrounded by people who love
you, who give you that platformof foundation on which to build
these dreams, and being able tobe vulnerable around those
(15:01):
people who love you and justletting it go.
Just let go and, you know,prepare for the next day.
Sue Anstiss (15:08):
Oh, I feel like I've had a.
That's a wonderful coaching initself there.
Today we're seeing a little bitof a golden era again for
British middle-eastern women,with the likes of Georgia
Hunter-Bell, kee Hildreth Jensenand Laura Muir and others.
So why do you think that is?
Does it come in these kind ofphases of athletes inspiring
others?
What do you think has made thathappen now?
Diane Edwards (Modhal (15:29):
inspiring others, or what do you think's
made that happen?
Now I think it does go incycles.
You know, sue, because Iremember the generation that I
belonged was also a goldengeneration of athletics.
So I was part of the generationwhere we had Sally Gunnell,
colin Jackson, linford Christiewas our team captain, yvonne
Murray, niswa Colgan, chrisAkabusi, derek Redman I say
(15:52):
these names and for me at least,it just brings back those
golden memories of thatgeneration where Team GB in
England were powerhouse.
We were to be feared becauseevery time we touched the track
we were consistent in ourperformances.
And I think we have come ageneration again where we now
(16:13):
understand what it means to win,what it takes to win.
I think the support is therenow.
Athletes understand that.
You know they have potential,absolutely.
But it takes a lot of hard work, consistency, to get there.
But I also think athletes aresupported in a good way.
(16:35):
They there are run clubs nowthey can be supported
financially.
The technology's there, we'regoing to see faster times
athletes continuing theircareers for longer, and that's
good, that's positive yeah, sopositive, isn't you?
Sue Anstiss (16:50):
it's kind of remarkable when you reflect that
you went to four olympic gamesand I was wondering, as an
athlete, do they feel verydifferent?
Or once you're there and you'reon the track, or in the warmer
period, do they feel much thesame?
When you're there to perform,they never feel the same.
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (17:05):
Actually , they all feel very, very
different, and the first one forme was 1988 in Seoul, south
Korea, and undoubtedly that wasthe best one, because that was
the dream to get to an OlympicGames.
And so, when I did, nothing wasever going to top that and, to
(17:25):
be fair, I was probably in thebest shape of my Olympic cycle
that I was in for the latterthree and the second one, in
Barcelona, I had a stressfracture coming into.
That Didn't go very well at all.
96 was really a comeback yearafter what had been a very
difficult couple of years for me, and then Sydney again injured
(17:49):
hamstring issues.
So yeah, they're all verydifferent, but the meaning, the
commonality between all four isjust the ability to compete with
the best athletes in the worldand try and do your best whilst
I was there.
Sue Anstiss (18:06):
And you mentioned there a kind of difficult couple
of years.
If you're happy to talk aboutthat, and you mentioned there a
kind of difficult couple ofyears, if you're happy to talk
about that and I alluded to itin the introduction there that
(18:27):
1994, the have known what, whathappened there.
So can you kind of talk usthrough, tell us a little bit
about what happened on the?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (18:36):
24th of August 1994 was the day that my
life changed forever and stillimpacts on my life and forever
will.
I was Victoria, canada, todefend my Commonwealth title.
I had won gold four yearspreviously.
I was in the best shape of mylife, I was the favorite to win
(19:00):
and I was excited.
And I remember waking up thatmorning and it was a typical
morning in the sense of typicalmorning, in the sense of I would
start my morning by going for awarm-up, run through my warm-up
, do a couple of miles, somestretching, some drills, and put
myself in a space ofpreparedness to start the
(19:22):
competition.
And that's what I did.
The sun was shining, the skywas blue and everything was
aligned, beautiful day, perfectfor running fast times.
And I was on my way back intothe Commonwealth Games village
and before I got to my room Iwas stopped by a team official,
sue Deaves.
(19:43):
I've known Sue since I was 15,for as long as I've been
competing for England, and shesaid Diane, I need to have a
word with you, I need to have aconversation with you.
And I remember saying to Suenot now, I've just come back
from my warmup, I need toprepare for my competition.
(20:03):
And she said no, I actually doneed to speak to you, diane, but
at this time I had my focushead on.
I was in my tunnel vision.
I knew what my routine was.
I wanted to sort of stick tothat, but she was really
insistent, bizarrely, weirdly.
And I went into her roomunwillingly and she did
(20:27):
something really unexpected.
She held my hands and shelooked directly into my eyes and
she said Diane, a drug test yougave nine weeks ago has tested
positive.
And I remember looking back atSue and saying I've got to go,
(20:48):
I've got to prepare for my race.
You've got the wrong athlete.
And we went back and forth, meinsisting she's got the wrong
athlete, sue still holding myhand, saying Diane, you know
I've seen the information, butit wasn't until she said in the
sternest of voices, she said no,diane, I have to pull you out.
(21:11):
That I realized it wasn't amistake.
She was talking to me and Iremember just waking up on the
floor, sue looking over me,patting my face, saying breathe,
diane, breathe, you mustbreathe.
And I don't know what happenedin the meantime, but I remember
(21:34):
I was lying on the floor,somebody raised my legs onto the
bed, doctor came in and theywere having this conversation
above my head.
I couldn't even understand orcomprehend what was going on.
I was sedated with Valium andthe next thing I knew I was on
(21:55):
an aeroplane heading back toHeathrow.
I wasn't able to go back to myroom, I didn't pack my own
clothes, I was taken into anofficial's room, and that was
the start of a nightmare.
Sue Anstiss (22:12):
And you were sedated because of the shock and
the impact of it on your body.
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (22:18):
Of hearing that news, I believe I
was sedated because they wereseverely worried about how I was
reacting.
I fainted, I lost consciousnessa number of times and I think
they were trying to justmaintain a level of calm.
My blood pressure I wasdropping in and out of
(22:39):
consciousness and I think therewas a decision made in order to
get Diane home safely.
We need to do that, and I wassent home with a nurse who had
Valium with her in case I neededmore, and we sat.
I don't know how long thejourney is from Canada to
Heathrow, but we sat in silence.
(23:01):
I'd lost my ability to speak.
The nurse was very kind andcalming and we arrived home.
Sue Anstiss (23:12):
And the headlines at the time were completely
brutal.
I remember reading them andseeing it on TV, but the
pressure you must have beenunder it's just hard to even
conceive, isn't it?
I read your book in preparationfor talking to you the
Dime-a-Dile Story and I justhadn't realised what you'd been
through.
Anyway, for me it was not arevelation because you realise
(23:33):
how awful it must have been.
But I think just reading it andyou're kind of sharing the
other side of it almost, ratherthan the public seeing it.
So how did you even begin tokind of cope with that trauma
and that feeling of isolation?
I just can't even imagine wheneveryone turns against you in
the media and the sport, butknowing that you're innocent,
(23:55):
you know it is hard to even getyour head around that.
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (23:58):
Yeah, how do I cope with that?
I think with family and withlove, because, to be fair, I
wasn't a Diana I'm speaking tonow.
I was almost in a trance, in adaze, and my husband at the time
(24:22):
, vicente, was a powerhouse ofsupport, of strength, and it
came at a huge cost to him.
But I remember I just wanted tounderstand what was actually
happening because I knew Iwasn't a chief, I knew I hadn't
(24:44):
taken drugs and I was trying tounderstand what happened between
the lawyer and my husband, whowere having conversations and
trying to map out where do we gofrom here?
And I think the way I survivedit and continue to survive every
(25:06):
day is quite simple.
Really, it's through the loveof my family.
When we landed in Heathrow, Iwas taken straight away to a
hospital and they did a numberof checks to make sure I was
able to be stable.
And when I was able to leavethe hospital, we weren't able to
(25:29):
go home because the press hadlanded on our house.
They had set up cameras thereand my sister said look, you've
got to come and stay with me.
My sister Barbara, I think sheput up with me for a good month
or so.
(25:49):
We just couldn't go home andshe just looked after me and
took care of me and us.
But then, as my strength cameback and my voice started to
regain a little bit, I hadactually written notes.
I'd written everything that Icould remember about how I was
feeling and I allowed the lawyer, tony Morton Hooper, at
(26:12):
Mishkonderweire, to help me putinto a plan what needed to
happen.
So he was saying to me justtell us everything you remember
from that race in Portugal anddevise this witness statement.
And as we were piecing the bitstogether, we were then able to
understand exactly what happenedto that sample.
Sue Anstiss (26:34):
But it was with, I think, love and strength that I
was able to survive that time,because there were times when I
didn't think I would make it andyou mentioned there your lawyer
, but the lawyers and thescientists I'm excited again in
reading more about you andlooking back at the lawyers and
the scientists.
Like I say again, in readingmore about you and looking back
(26:56):
at the history of it all, justthe depth of investment that
they made into disproving thisand doing more research to kind
of overturn the initial decision, because it wasn't as if it was
just once and immediately itwas overturned.
It was a very long kind ofbattle that went on and I think
that for me that felt positivepiece from this hideous story
(27:19):
was how that commitment of thoseindividuals to support you and
to really get to the bottom ofit and uncover what had happened
.
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (27:27):
What we learned was, when I gave the
sample after that competition inPortugal, the alkalinity of the
sample was tested, which istypical, and the alkalinity or
the pH level of that sample wasmeasured at around about seven.
But then, when it was reopenedand tested in the laboratory, it
(27:48):
had risen tenfold, anincredible lift in alkalinity to
almost 10.
So if you're a non-scientist itdoesn't really mean anything.
But what the scientists wereable to understand was a sample
that has been degraded to thatlevel means that somehow
bacteria or another materialchange has happened to that
(28:12):
sample to give rise to thatlevel of alkalinity in the
sample.
And so we were able to thenbacktrack and understand what
actually happened to this sample, from the time I gave it to the
time it was opened and testedin the laboratory.
And what the scientists, withtheir diligence and real
(28:34):
patience and unwillingness notto give up, was to understand
that the sample was left on awindowsill in a laboratory in
Portugal in the middle of July,in the height of the summer, for
72 hours, and that meant thatthe sample had become materially
(28:55):
degraded with bacteria.
And so, armed with thatevidence and with scientific
evidence, we went to the initialhearing in December in 1994 and
what they said to us at thehearing was an unreliable sample
can give rise to an unreliableresult.
(29:17):
And we said yes, exactly.
And they said no, that'sunheard of.
Dope testing has been inexistence for 30 years.
We've never heard anything likeit.
Go away, go ahead and prove it.
Way, go ahead and prove it.
(29:38):
And whilst they said that I wasat that time found guilty of a
doping offence, banned for life,for ever, competing in an
Olympic Games they were theheadlines.
She took the mick out of us.
She knew exactly what she wasdoing and we were devastated.
It was just such a difficultperiod because we knew, and what
the scientists knew was thatthe evidence was on our side.
(30:01):
And that's exactly what we hadto do.
We had to go out and prove thatthis sample, any sample that's
left degraded, can give rise toa false positive, and in my case
it was testosterone.
So what the scientists did wasthey took a sample from me.
They took a sample from aprofessional marathon runner and
(30:24):
a professional tennis player.
They were able to degrade allthree samples to the same level
that my sample was degraded inthat Lisbon laboratory.
We trained to a level offatigue, so similar amounts of
training that I was doing in thebuildup to that race.
Tennis player did the same,marathon runner did the same.
(30:45):
We tried to replicateeverything that could give us a
sense of what could havehappened to that sample.
And guess what happened?
All three samples gave rise toa false positive test of
testosterone, and so it was ahollow victory.
But what it meant was I wasvindicated at the appeal and
(31:08):
received an apology from theInternational Athletic
Federation.
But still, to this day, I'venever received an apology from
British athletics, uk athletics,and it's devastating because
I've never recognized the damage, the hurt, the harm that they
have caused and put me in myfamily.
(31:44):
Do you think that will ever come?
Do you think in your lifetimethat will come?
Will take ownership, will takeresponsibility for the role they
played in devastating my career, my reputation, my finance?
Not necessarily the people whoare in position now, because
(32:07):
there's been a huge change, butthe organization is the same and
I think it's waiting forsomeone brave enough, honest
enough, with integrity, to saywhat we did was wrong.
And we recognize that Diane didher part as an ambassador, as
(32:31):
an advocate for this sport, forthis country, and we're going to
recognise that, certainly withan apology.
So I remain hopeful, sue, but Idon't wake up every day
thinking is today the day?
Because I don't know.
I don't know whether it willever come.
Sue Anstiss (32:50):
And do you think that doesn't happen?
Because they worry that it'sadmitting a financial liability?
If they say sorry, are theyadmitting they did it wrong
Because you lost so much money,didn't you, in terms of fighting
that battle.
And we've talked about theamazing scientists and lawyers,
but they don't come cheaply tohave that much time and
(33:10):
investment to really dig,because a lot of the research
you had to get out and have donebecause it hadn't been done in
the past.
So I think you lost your house.
You had to remortgage your home.
I mean personally, thefinancial impact of that must
still reverberate with you today.
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (33:28):
We lost everything.
The case over two years and ourfight for compensation cost us
half a million pounds.
Do I look like a millionaire toyou?
You know, in all honesty, itwas devastating.
It crippled us financially andwhilst emotionally it will
(33:50):
always be difficult for me toput into words the cost of that,
financially there was a cost toit and I think you're right.
I think there's two elements whyI may never get that apology.
One is fear of a compensationclaim and the other is a
recognition that they were wrongand they caused real harm.
(34:15):
But you know, when we talkabout being human, I think there
is a human response to this andthey would never, ever be
looked upon as inadequate orvulnerable if they were able to
do the right thing byrecognizing the wrong, the harm
(34:37):
that they caused, because that'sa human thing to do and it's
the right thing to do.
And it would make an enormousdifference to me as a human
being, as a woman, as a mom, tobe able to live my life knowing
that everything we said allalong, that I was not a drug
chief, but to have thatrecognition would be worth so
(35:00):
much to me.
Sue Anstiss (35:02):
And there was what really surprised me, I think, in
reading more into it, was thisonus on you as the athlete, to
go out and pay for the researchto find it, rather than that
presumption of innocence untilit is proven.
So do you feel that sportsgovernance and those anti-doping
systems are better today interms of protecting athletes?
Could what happened to youhappen to another athlete today?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (35:24):
I'm not convinced that what happened to
me couldn't happen to anotherathlete today.
I'm not that close to the dottesting system as I once was,
but I do know that actually, asa result of the fight and the
personal cost to me, dot testingwas forever changed.
So chain of custody became evenmore important.
(35:48):
So chain of custody is howsamples are collected, how
samples are collected, how theyare stored, where and when.
That changed, as did the waysamples were tested in terms of
the alkalinity and thereliability of that sample once
it's opened.
So I'm not saying that it wasworth going through all of what
(36:11):
myself and my family wentthrough to change a dope testing
system, but I don't knowwhether the World Anti-Doping
System and the organizationtruly understand the impact of
the decisions that they make onathletes.
Now I'm not saying that thereare not people who cheat, but
(36:35):
what I am saying is, if you areinnocent and you are caught in
this web of saving the system asopposed to recognizing justice,
then the dope testing systemdoesn't stand for anything,
because unless there isintegrity in the system, there's
(36:56):
no integrity at all, and I amliving proof that the system
will go out of its way to backitself rather than do what's
right.
Sue Anstiss (37:07):
And you mentioned you were pregnant through some
of the kind of darkest time ofthat ordeal.
So how did pregnancy and thenmotherhood impact your
perspective and also your, yourstrength?
I mean, I just feel so manyathletes might have walked away,
might have kind of throw theirhands up and said that's that,
even knowing that they wereinnocent, but to keep on
(37:29):
fighting.
So did motherhood and becominga mother impact that in a
positive way?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (37:34):
If I didn't become a mother.
I don't think I'll be talkingto you today.
Dimani, our daughter, was ourhope.
She kept me going and whilst Iwas pregnant, we were going to a
court battle with the highcourts trying to claim
(37:56):
compensation, and it was roughbeing embroiled in the court
system.
You're a commodity.
They don't care how you feel,how you think, what you're
fighting for, what your futurelooks like.
You are and I was a commodity.
And having this baby, this tinybaby growing inside me, where
(38:18):
listen?
Sometimes I would wake up and Ijust wouldn't leave the bedroom
, I wouldn't leave the house forweeks and weeks and weeks.
I wouldn't do any of the basicnecessity of things because I
was done and I just didn't wantto carry on.
(38:38):
But Imani was our hope andcontinues to be our hope.
She's an amazing daughter.
She's incredible.
I'm so proud of her.
How old is she now?
So Imani's 29 now and she isironically, she's going to kill
me for saying this, but she'shead of legal services at wrecks
(38:58):
and football club and doingwonderful things there for that
club.
And we have two of the childrenas well.
If I don't mention them,they'll kill me as well.
So georgia is the youngest andshe is 17 and at college and
gisela is the middle child at 18and, you know, got a job and
(39:18):
doing amazing things, but theyare my hope.
Sue Anstiss (39:22):
I'm so blessed to have these girls in my life and,
uh, yeah, yeah and what do theyknow about that kind of period
in your life and how that'simpacted you?
I'm and I don't imagine youhaven't shared everything with
them, but it must have impactedthem too to know, I think, about
my own kids and how they wouldfeel about an injustice done to
(39:42):
me or, you know, my husband theywere so young I mean, the
latter two were not even born.
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (39:49):
Georgia and Gisela were not even born
when we were enduring this,imani grew up with it so, even
though she was a tiny baby, Icame back to sport after Imani
was born, and so she grew uparound two potentially very
angry, angry, bitter, determinedparents, but also, I think, two
(40:19):
parents who were trying to getback on track and do what we
loved.
But they don't really, if theydo know anything, understand, I
think, the extent to which itshaped who we became and how
then it affected them.
But the reality is it didhappen.
It continues to impact and, tobe fair, the things that I had
(40:42):
to endure because of that shapewho I am today and help me in my
decision making today.
Sue Anstiss (40:48):
Have you forgiven the people that were involved?
I was interested from youryoung family life and the
importance of religion and Godand faith and how that was
impacted.
Actually, it's beautiful.
I've referred a lot to yourbook, haven't you?
I was very moved by your book,but at the end of your book,
almost that questioning of whyhas this been put in my path and
(41:11):
the fact that you have had toendure so much.
Yes, I guess, going back to myquestion, but in terms of
forgiveness and moving on, wheredo you feel for the people that
were involved?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (41:22):
I can't forgive them.
I can't, I can't.
I think they robbed so muchfrom me, from us, and I just
can't find it in myself toforgive them.
(41:45):
And that doesn't mean that Idon't live a positive, happy,
productive life, which I do.
But for me to forgive themwould mean I've given up on the
(42:07):
hope of them, recognizing theharm that they caused.
But it would also mean givingup part of me and the damage
that that caused, and I'm notgoing to do that.
Sue Anstiss (42:23):
And I'll move on to more positive feelings of life
and where we are today.
You've held some incredibleleadership roles with Sport
England, Commonwealth GamesEngland.
You do a lot of work withGreater Manchester and the Young
Persons Taskforce.
So what's driven your work inthose spaces and the impact
you're having there.
My purpose.
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (42:45):
I think I'm driven by wanting to provide
an opportunity where there isno opportunity, and that goes
all the way back to that11-year-old girl.
So a chance meeting with astranger, with this volunteer,
you gave me an opportunity toweave out something that I
(43:08):
didn't even know I had.
What was this thing calledpotential?
I was just having fun.
So I think what I know now andI didn't really know it until
recently really but when Ireflect on my career, every
decision or every role that I'vetaken on has been around
(43:30):
opportunity, and so my work withAndy Burnham in the Greater
Manchester Combined Authority isaround leadership.
It's about how do we createmore and better environment for
underrepresented groups, womencoming from an ethnic background
.
How do we create moreopportunities for them and us to
(43:54):
influence the agenda, to bepart of the decision-making
structure, which is great andthat's really good fun.
My role at Sport England againvery similar I'm head of
inclusion England Talent Pathway.
So that's about ensuring thatthe teams and the athletes that
represent England and GreatBritain are representative of
(44:15):
the nation.
Do we recognize ourselves, dowe recognize their stories?
Do we recognize ourcircumstances as we watch the
Lionesses or as we watch ourrelay teams or our boxers,
whatever it is.
So my role is again workingalongside national governing
bodies and organisations,charities, to provide
(44:38):
opportunities for people tothrive and to be the very best
that they can be, and I love it.
Sue Anstiss (44:44):
I had a lovely quote from you where you talked
about the fact that talent iseverywhere, but opportunities
aren't.
It just really resonated withme so clearly.
That does excite you to knowthat you're able to do that for
so many young people.
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (44:58):
Yeah, you're right.
I tend to think about and enterany opportunity that I go into
with, not what is the lack, butwhere is the opportunity.
Because you know, talent iseverywhere, potential is
everywhere.
But how do we create theopportunity for people to access
(45:22):
what they need in order tobecome the best that they can be
?
And you know we will have heardof that saying you can't see it
, you can't be it Absolutelyright, but you also need to tag
on to that statement.
How do you create anopportunity to be it, to become
it, to fulfill that dream?
And I feel that I have aresponsibility to do that.
(45:48):
My early coach, alan Robertshaw,who told me I had potential,
that's exactly what he was doing.
He was breaking down barriersfor myself and other young
athletes who he recognized andidentified to have an
opportunity to fulfill thatpotential.
If he had said to me, diane,you've got potential, full stop,
(46:10):
that doesn't take my potentialor others anywhere.
So it's about the opportunityand creating a pathway for that
opportunity to thrive, and Ifeel I have an opportunity and a
responsibility to do that.
Sue Anstiss (46:25):
And, looking back, what do you feel most proud of
as an athlete and, obviously,mentor and a leader?
And I might take the motherpart out because I think as
mothers, we can all be proud asmothers, can't we?
But from a career perspective,what brings you most pride?
Diane Edwards (Modhal) (46:40):
I don't know if this is going to answer
your question, but I'll give ita go.
The thing that I feel mostproud about is having two
parents who came from Jamaicaand demonstrated to me with
their actions what trueleadership looks like.
They made tough decisions, theyfollowed through on their
(47:02):
commitment and they worked hard.
So anything that I say to youand everything that I've said to
you in this conversation isirrelevant without basing it on
that foundation, and what theytaught me was so much that drove
me to be the person I am, andso what I'm most proud of is
(47:25):
just being able to be surroundedby people who I continue to
learn from professionally withinmy family and to be inspired by
, and with those things, whetheryou're a leader or a runner or
a mom, whatever it is, you canachieve whatever it is you want,
just surrounded by energy thatis positive and allows you to be
(47:50):
a true self.
Sue Anstiss (47:56):
Thank you to Diane for being so open and sharing
her story, and what a privilegeit was for me to talk to her for
the podcast, especially as I'vebeen such a huge fan of her as
an athlete in the 80s and 90s.
If you'd like to hear fromother trailblazing Olympic
athletes, my previous guestshave included the likes of Jess
(48:17):
Ennis-Hill, denise Lewis,jeanette Kwache and Katerina
Johnson-Thompson.
In fact, there are over 200episodes of the Game Changers
that are all free to listen toon podcast platforms or from our
website at fearlesswomencouk.
Guests include elite athleteslike those, along with coaches,
(48:38):
entrepreneurs, broadcasters,scientists, journalists and CEOs
all women who are changing thegame in sport.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
can also find out more about theWomen's Sport Collective, a
free, inclusive community forall women working in sport.
We now have over 13,000 membersacross the world, so please do
(49:00):
come and join us.
The whole of my book Game On theUnstoppable Rise of Women's
Sport is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Every episode of Series 13 isme reading a chapter of the book
.
Thank you once again to SportEngland for backing the Game
Changers and the Women's SportCollective with a National
Lottery Award and to Sam Walkerat what Goes On Media, who does
(49:24):
such a brilliant job as ourExecutive Producer.
Thank you also to my fantasticcolleague at fearless women,
Kate Hannon.
You can find the game changerson all podcast platforms, so
please do follow us now and youwon't miss out on future
episodes.
Do come and say hello on socialmedia, where you'll find me on
(49:45):
linkedin and instagram at sueanstis, the the game changes
Fearless women in sport.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.