August 17, 2025 • 44 mins
"Women in sport shouldn’t have to choose between motherhood and their career. We need real investment, policies and understanding to make both possible."
England netball legend Eboni Usoro-Brown (formerly Beckford-Chambers) wore the red dress 117 times across an extraordinary 15-year career, including that unforgettable Commonwealth Games gold in 2018.
A trailblazer on and off the court, Eboni has combined elite sport with a career in law, championed dual careers, and inspired so many through her return to professional netball after becoming a mother.
In this episode of The Game Changers podcast, Eboni shares her remarkable journey as we go behind the scenes of England’s dramatic 2018 Commonwealth Games Gold and explore the resilience and mental toughness needed to stay at the top for over a decade.
Eboni talks why every athlete needs a “Plan B”, the reality of returning to professional sport after pregnancy and her thoughts on the future of the Netball Super League.
Having been a massive fan of Eboni's for many years, Sue loved this powerful and inspiring conversation about chasing your dreams, overcoming challenges and leaving a legacy that opens doors for others.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sue Anstiss (00:02):
Hello and welcome to the Game Changers the podcast
, where I speak to trailblazingwomen in sport, the leaders,
pioneers and rule breakers whoare reshaping the world of sport
for future generations.
A big, big thank you to ourpartners, sport England, who
support the Game Changerspodcast with a National Lottery
Award.
Cast with a National LotteryAward.
(00:30):
My guest today is anextraordinary woman whose career
spans both elite sport and thelegal world.
Ebony Asura-Brown, formerlyknown as Ebony Beckford-Chambers
, is a former England netballinternational who earned over
100 caps across a phenomenal15-year career.
She was part of thatunforgettable Commonwealth Games
squad that made history in 2018, securing gold for England in
(00:51):
one of the most dramatic netballfinals ever.
But Eben's story goes farbeyond the court.
Alongside competing at thehighest level, she's also
trained and qualified as asolicitor, balancing the intense
demands of sport with herpassion for law and justice.
Ebony is a mother, a leader anda fierce advocate for women in
sport, especially around dualcareers and the challenges of
(01:13):
returning to elite performanceafter pregnancy.
So, ebony, I wonder if I canstart on the Gold Coast and that
extraordinary CommonwealthGames gold medal.
But as you look back today,what are your overriding
memories from that final game inAustralia?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (01:31):
I look back and I think it's just pure joy.
It was one of those momentswhere I jumped about as a little
girl.
I was one of those girls whosat at Wembley Arena and watched
England played.
As a youngster and just dreamedabout wearing that dress and
representing my country, and Ithink back then England were
losing by 30 to Australia andNew Zealand.
(01:53):
So to be at that pivotal momentfor our sport against the
world's best in Australia and toget across the line in the
fashion that we did with theteam that we had, it was just
one of those moments you canreally dream about.
So I'm just grateful for theopportunity to have been part of
that team.
Sue Anstiss (02:12):
And when you went into the game that morning, did
you personally feel that youcould win?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (02:17):
Definitely.
I think, jeeva and I we weresharing at the time and we
probably only had about fourhours sleep because we were so
excited all night we were justlike we've got to go to sleep,
but just the the fact that we'dmade the final and I think, even
if we beat Jamaica in thesemi-final by one.
So I think in our mindsanything would be possible and I
(02:38):
think for us, when we have acoach like Tracy Neville, with
her belief, her passion, justher knowledge of the game, it's
in her we trusted and I think,in terms of executing the game
plan, understanding our roles,at the time we said if we could
stick to it, we could come outwith a great result and luckily
we did.
Sue Anstiss (02:55):
I love the thought of you and Jeeva like naughty
little girls in your room, likechatting and not going to sleep.
Yeah, no, it was was.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (03:03):
I just remember just lying there and
just like, can you believe weactually did it?
And I think it's thatexcitement that you, just you
just realize in the momentyou're on the, you're on the
cusp of something really special, um, not only for yourselves,
but all the the years, the hardwork of the team behind the team
, your family, your friends havebeen on that journey with you.
So, regardless of what theresult was going to be, we knew
(03:24):
we were going to go home with amedal and I think it was really
nice just to sit and live inthat moment at that time.
Sue Anstiss (03:30):
And what was it like when you came back to the
UK?
Because the time I was up withmy family middle of the night
watching, but I think that thattime difference did mean you
perhaps didn't feel as connectedto home and the netball
community.
So what was that like when youreturned?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (03:43):
it was absolutely pandemonium because,
um, we, as you say, we hadn'trealized being, I guess, one
step away about how the countryhad gone netball mad, but also
how many fans and new fans thatcome on the journey with us.
It was only when we we landedback home on that british
airways flight and the captainsaid, can the netball team stay
behind?
We were like what happened?
(04:04):
So everyone else had left theplane and we got escorted
through immigration, got ourbags, we came out and it was
through those doors in thearrival hall where we just saw
that wall of paparazzi camerasabsolutely flashing and we kind
of then got an understanding asto how big that moment had
actually been.
So I think my only one regretwas that only six of us out the
(04:26):
12 came home, because the othersix were still playing in the
Australian New Zealand, thoughit was only any of those
athletes playing in the SuperLeague over here that returned.
So we really kind of shoulderedthe excitement and the the buzz
and around it.
But it was a phenomenal timefor the sport and yeah, I look
back on it really fondly.
Sue Anstiss (04:44):
And, as I mentioned in the introduction, you put on
that red dress over a hundredtimes for your country.
So what did it mean to youevery time you, you ran out and
did that change and evolve overtime as you matured and played
more?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (04:58):
Putting on the red dress for me I think, as
I mentioned, I was that girl atWembley, I think 12 years old,
and mum took me there and thatdream of playing in that
environment in front of theEnglish fans, just to do my
family proud, myself proud, Ithink it's one of those things,
like I said, I used to dreamabout through all the training
sessions that were indoors oroutdoors, in the rain, the snow.
(05:18):
So I think, getting thatopportunity in 2008, debuting
against Malawi, having been theEngland under-21 captain, it
really was that full circlemoment in terms of working hard,
setting a goal and not makingexcuses.
Actually, what can come aboutif you kind of restate, stay the
course?
So to never mind getting theopportunity to wear the England
(05:39):
dress only once, but well, 117times.
In the end, each and everysingle occasion was such a
privilege and such an honour.
I remember it was one of theone of my first coaches, lynn
Gunton, and her words alwaysstick my mind like it's easy
getting into the England team.
The hardest part is actuallystaying there, and especially in
part, as like starting seven.
So I never took it for grantedand, as you say, sue, it did
(06:02):
evolve as I, as I went throughranks.
I started off as a young woman,ended up going to play in
Australia, new Zealand, and findmy trade there, professionally,
coming back and obviously beingpart of the squad but also
becoming a mother.
During my time I was in theEngland Roses dress, so my goals
and my values definitelyevolved personally in amongst
that team setting.
But I couldn't be prouder ofhow I left the dress and
(06:27):
hopefully inspired a few ofthose athletes coming behind me
and you said that you alluded tothat.
Sue Anstiss (06:30):
you played for a very long time and it does take
time to, I guess, to stay in theteam, to be able to stay in the
team, but the resilience thatit takes to stay, both mentally
and physically, able to bemaking that squad over time, how
demanding was it, do you think,for you personally, as you look
back over all those years, tostay at the top of your game for
so long.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (06:51):
I think it was hugely demanding and, I
think, probably my greatestblessing now as I look back in
terms of the mental resilienceand toughness that the sport
allowed me to build each andevery single day.
You had to have a level ofself-belief that was unwavering
compared to anything else.
You had to believe in yourself.
You had to make sure you putyour best foot forward and you
were giving 110% every singletime because the competition was
(07:14):
so fierce.
But I think the lessons that Ilearned from that high
performance or elite environmentreally did equip me with life
skills now that I'vetransitioned out the sport, or
even whilst I was in it and Iwas trying to forge my way in
the legal sector.
So I really put it down to onehaving the best support network
(07:35):
around me friends, family,mentors, even backroom staff.
So on those days where you'requestioning, questioning if
you're going to make it, I thinkthey really kind of reinforce
what your whys are and reallykind of prior to that kind of
nurturing and guiding handthroughout my journey in an
England dress to allow me to goon to achieve what I did.
Sue Anstiss (07:56):
And were there moments when you thought you
might step away from it all Were?
You took that seriously and youthought actually this might be
either too much or I've giventoo much of myself to it all.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (08:06):
A hundred percent, I think.
After we won gold in 2018 onthe Gold Coast, we followed up
that appearance with the WorldCup in Liverpool in 2019 and it
was a long slog over that fouryears and I got married at the
end of 2018 and for me it wasvery much JK and I knew that we
wanted to start a family.
So I remember just beingexhausted with a whistle blue in
(08:29):
Liverpool We'd won a bronzemedal, having beaten South
Africa in the bronze medalplayoff, and I actually thought
that was my time over and done.
And at the end of that 2019year we wanted to start our
family and luckily I fellpregnant before going into the
2020 season and I guess,unfortunately, obviously, covid
then ensued and I was granted anenforced break.
(08:51):
But I think that time away tobecome a mother, to obviously
navigate the pandemic but alsohave the opportunity to return
at the end of 2020 to apre-season with my domestic team
, team Bark, at the time wasprobably a real blessing in
disguise.
Sue Anstiss (09:07):
And I want to talk to you more about motherhood and
come on to that, but I wouldlike to take you back to your
younger years, if I can do justnow, in terms of the beginning
of your netball journey.
So you've talked about beingthat 12-year-old at Wembley and
watching the England team play,but what was the first club you
played for?
England team play, but whatfirst?
What was the first club youplayed for?
Where did you grow up and howdid netball start out as part of
(09:27):
your life.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (09:27):
Oh so at school I was one of those kids
who played absolutely everything.
I guessed that I thought thatmight be the case, yeah like you
could throw me in anywhere andI would just give it a go.
As to whether I was good at itor not was a different question.
But, um, netball's probablywhere I found my passion,
because most of my friendsplayed the sport and I think it
all goes back to having reallygreat enthusiastic, passionate
(09:49):
teachers, because that's whereyou kind of really learn and
start to embed the, that feeling, that competitive spirit that
sport really like gives to you.
So from there, from playing atschool, I joined a club called
epsom downs I'm a Surrey basedgirl, locally so and it was a
great coach called Eunice Smithwho was an ex-England player who
probably pushed me to my limits, probably recognized something
(10:12):
or saw something in me that Iprobably didn't see myself at
the time.
And luckily I then went on toplay for Surrey County and it
was a Surrey County match that Iwas scouted for the England
junior squad.
So I know the pathway is verydifferent now within netball
itself, but I really put it downto the school teachers that I
had really kind of advocatingeach of the sports and why to
(10:34):
get involved and the benefitsthat could accrue from it.
Sue Anstiss (10:37):
Do you ever reflect on what other sports you might
have done if you'd have taken adifferent path?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (10:42):
Oh, I'd love to say I would have been a
gymnast.
Now that I'm six foot one, Ithink I would have been a
football player on even bars, ora tennis player, but I think
Serena Williams has definitelygot that covered.
So, yeah, I'm glad that levelended up being for me.
Sue Anstiss (10:56):
And you're known for your defensive brilliance,
that kind of unique style ofplay.
So how did that develop acrossyour career?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (11:05):
Were you always a defender?
Um, I wasn't always a defender.
So when I first got intoEngland at the end of 17 ranks,
um, they spent a year actuallytrying to make me a shooter.
But I was trialled as adefender.
So, um, I had one-on-onecoaching with Lynn Carpenter, an
ex-England international goalattack, putting up shots week in
, week out.
And I remember going to theEuropean competition and I think
I played the first quarter as agoal shooter and I think I got
(11:27):
seven out of seven.
The second quarter I got twoout of nine and then, ever since
that I was a defender.
Because we the inaccuracy, um,they're like we can use you, but
I don't think it'll be in thatattacking it.
And why?
Why was that, do you think?
Um, I, I think they obviouslysaw my height.
I thought.
I thought, in terms of thenature of how I played, I was
quite a, I guess, had a realgood presence inside the circle
(11:50):
and I really could hold my own.
So I thought they probablyneeded that kind of prowess or
that kind of characteristics inthat attacking circle.
So I'm grateful for theexperience, but also I'm also
glad that they thought I couldstay as a defender and that I
could still play a part on theteam.
I think my ability as adefender really developed over
the coaches that I had whilst Iwas in that England set-up and
(12:10):
it's just more understanding thegame and also growing into, I
guess, as puberty hits and as Ideveloped, matured as a female
athlete, understanding how mybody moved and how I could
utilise it to best effect.
Sue Anstiss (12:22):
And I play goalkeeper.
Goal defence has been myposition over all those years
that I've played, and nowwalking netball, but what do you
think makes a truly greatdefender?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (12:32):
as you look across women playing in those
positions, A truly greatdefender, I would have to say,
has presence, is intimidating,has great communication skills,
because as a defensive pairing,you you're very much leaving,
also leaving the attack from theback.
But I would say that the bestthing I love about being a
(12:52):
defender is the game smarts youhave to have, like I think
you're one step behind,obviously, the attack.
Sue Anstiss (12:57):
So, in terms of strategizing and breaking it
down in the moment, makingreally quick decisions and
acting upon them and trustingyour instinct, I think those all
qualities of a goal defensegoalkeeper and in order to kind
of really contribute to thatteam effort and you joined team
bath in 2006 and part of anincredible squads that won the
super league, I think, fourtimes while you were there, and
(13:19):
you also, as you mentioned, hadsince playing in Australia, in
Perth and Adelaide, and thenlater returned to play in
Queensland.
But if you could look back andrelive one match from across
your career, club or country,what would it be?
What holds the greatestmemories?
I might take the CommonwealthGames gold out of there, that's
fine, I know, I think it's aninteresting.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (13:39):
You always ask me those couple of questions
.
I think the very first SuperLeague title I ever won at Team
Bath, those couple of questions,I think the very first super
league title I ever won at teambath I think I owe lynn gunson
university bath and team bath agreat deal because, um, that's
the really where the foundationfor my skill set and who I am, I
guess, was really built.
I think they they had aphilosophy is that you have to
build the person off the courtin order to affect the
(14:00):
performance on it.
And in the fact that I was ableto study at the University of
Bristol and also develop my, Iguess, netball technical skills
at Bath in a really supportivelike an academy environment
where there was about 20 girlsat the time all searching for
that same goal of wearing thatEngland dress one day, I think I
learnt the foundation of whatit means to train consistently
(14:21):
and to the standard required,through the strength and
conditioning on court craft, thevideo analysis, the nutrition,
the sport psychology of netballand how to prepare myself.
So, um, that environment wasone of the most enriching ones
I've ever been in.
I say in terms of one of thegreatest games.
(14:41):
I think it was winning withthat franchise, because I think
that's where I first learned interms of how hard work and
commitment to a program and avision and a mission really pays
off.
So that first taste, reallywinning at elite level, was
probably really significant tome, and then, as you say,
commonwealth Games, gold, butalso probably when I won my
100th cap in Liverpool.
(15:02):
So, as I say, being that kidwanting to wear the dress once
and then getting to a century infront of a home crowd at a Home
World Cup will live for meforever.
Sue Anstiss (15:13):
And to have family there.
I imagine family and friends.
It's lovely on home soil thatyou could have everyone there
too.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (15:19):
Yeah, I think , if you ask any athlete, a home
games or a home tournament isalways the most rewarding,
fulfilling emotional event,because they live and breathe
the journey with you.
My mum's, one of my greatestrole models in my life, and to
have her there just to witnessmy journey from the very start
to the very end, even when I wasretiring at Commonwealth Games
(15:40):
in 2022, to have my husband andmy daughter there, you know how
much it means to them becausethey've lived the laughter,
they've lived the tears, they'velived the injuries, so it just
becomes one of those things inlife that again, you just
understand how strong thatcommunity is.
Sue Anstiss (15:55):
Yeah, so important.
Takes a village and all that.
And Netball is often consideredto be more diverse and
inclusive, I think, than otherwomen's team sports.
Did you feel that sense ofinclusion as a player?
Was Netball always a welcomingspace for you as a woman of
colour?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (16:12):
Yeah, very much.
So I think I had great again,great models within the team,
the likes of Sonia McClover,amanda Newton, who was the
captain at the time.
So there was, as you say, goodrepresentation of women of
colour within my sport, and Ialways say that if you want to
achieve it, you've got to see it, to believe it, to achieve it.
And I was able to see thestrong, independent, athletic,
(16:33):
intelligent women in the teamand I could.
I allowed me to not only aspirebut understand that.
That's where I could be and bethe best person that I could be,
regardless of my race or mygender or anything else.
Sue Anstiss (16:45):
And is there more the sport can do?
Do you think in terms ofgrowing itself in diversity and
making sure all girls feel thatnetball is a place they can be?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (16:55):
There's always more all sport can do.
I think it's one of thosethings that England and netball
in particular.
We've obviously got eight clubsin different areas around the
country at the moment whosupport the elite game.
However, there's lots of innercommunities in London or up
north that there's probablyprobably untouched resource and
girls who probably don't havethe access or the means in which
(17:18):
to travel the distance in orderto access, probably, elite
training, although those leakstraining environments.
So I think there's always moreinvestment that can come into
the sport to allow for thoseopportunities, because we've
seen how impactful sport can bewhen you have the opportunity to
access it and get the qualitycoaching that we all really have
the right to and deserve toaccess.
Sue Anstiss (17:39):
Absolutely.
You mentioned earlier, in termsof motherhood, when you had
your daughter Savannah andreturned to Elite Netball.
It really kind of madeheadlines at the time.
So was returning to the sportalways in your plan?
You talked about that end of2019 and then COVID, but in your
mind did you feel you wouldcome back?
If I be?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (17:57):
honest no, I didn't.
I think after 2019, it was.
I didn't announce my retirement,but I was just remember just
feeling exhausted and I justironically, if I reflect now I
was potentially starting afamily at that time a bit more
of a oh.
It's going to give me the breakthat I want, not really
(18:17):
realizing what pregnancy andthere's a toll that it takes in
the body really entailed.
But after getting pregnant withSavannah and having the
conversation with Dr AnnaStembridge, who was my coach at
the time, and but also justseeing the support that the
University of Bath and Team Bathpoured out to me at the time,
it really kind of allowed me tokind of feel like, ok, I can do
this and perhaps when I have thebaby I could return.
(18:42):
And the more that I went on,especially in those early months
, that first trimester, it didthen become a goal.
I think there was no rusharound it which allowed me the
time, the space, the freedom toenjoy this new chapter and
around it which allowed me thetime, the space, the freedom to
enjoy this new chapter, but alsoknow that a community and
something that had been part ofmy identity so long there's
(19:02):
still a door open.
Sue Anstiss (19:03):
It didn't mean the signal, the end of my career, if
I didn't want it to be.
And I think just to clarify forthose that might not be as big
a netball fan, but AnnaStenbridge is Anna Mays as was
so you'd worked with as anEngland national coach, kind of
in prior existence, almostbefore her then being in the
Bath role.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (19:17):
Yeah, so Anna and I she was my coach under
21s, I'd played with Ella atBath and then she had been my
coach for a number of seasons,so we'd had a really strong
relationship.
To be honest, I think again I'mreally grateful, probably, that
she was the head coach at thattime, because the level of
understanding as to who I wasaway from the court I think was
really impactful and critical interms of my decision as to
(19:41):
return thereafter.
Sue Anstiss (19:42):
I was going to ask you about mentors and other
teammates and so on that havehad a big impact on your career
and I feel I mean, she's anamazing woman, isn't she?
But clearly Jess Thelby wasthere at Bath too, so I guess
that whole importance of havingthat team around to enable your
return it's huge.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (20:00):
It's huge, and I think we talk about the
relationship between the athleteand the coach and how important
that is, how trusted that is.
But I couldn't have done what Idid without their support and
the importance of mentors, theimportance of having women who
are supporting other women inall those spaces not just in
terms of that output on thecourt is so necessary.
(20:24):
I think at the time I was alsodoing my training contracts or
I'd just finished my trainingcontract contract, so I had a
really supportive partner at mylaw firm at the time who really
understood what my aspirationswere, what my ambitions were,
and provided a space where theywere.
They were more solution focusedrather than seeing it as a
hindrance or a problem.
So it's about being, I guess,as an individual, just
(20:47):
committing to what it is youwant to do, or articulating what
it is you want to do,committing to the, the steps or
the boundaries or markers thatare placed in front of you, but
also working with those aroundyou to try and make sure that
you can achieve them and do themto the best of your ability.
Sue Anstiss (21:01):
And what was the reality of that comeback like in
terms of how you feltemotionally and physically too,
because I think we are talkingmore about it, but it is good to
understand the reality of thesituation.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (21:13):
It was hell on earth, and I don't say that
lightly because I think I wassuch sorry, very much in the
dark, as to how much pregnancywould change my body, my
understanding of my body imageat the time.
I always knew that my bodylooked a certain way and just in
terms of allowing to sit inthat space where I'm a lot
(21:36):
softer, I'm not as muscular, I'm, I guess, more tired than
normal and I think once, havinghad Savannah I had a natural
birth with Savannah and I justremember that first time
stepping into the gym and howweak I felt and just in
comparing myself, I guess, tothe other girls in the room and
just questioning like, why am Idoing this, why am I here, was a
(21:58):
real shock and, I think, a realmental challenge.
And I say it to anyone as aissue considering, obviously,
motherhood whilst they're in themiddle of their elite career.
It is possible.
I've obviously shown that it is, but don't underestimate that
that's first time stepping inthe gym.
It's going to be a real shockto the system.
But I think, again, without thesupport from the strength
(22:19):
conditioning coach, rickyMessiah, who was really gentle
in his approach, we really builta timeline of short, medium and
long-term goals and the markersthat I would have to hit.
I worked together with a pelvicfloor Emma Brockwell, the
pelvic floor health consultant.
So, again, not looking just torush me back to that sporting
(22:46):
environment, but to make surethat when I did return, I'd
return in the safest and bestway for me as a woman as well as
an athlete.
So it really was about justtaking one day at a time,
putting each of the weekstogether, putting all the months
together, putting each of theweeks together, putting all the
months together and then finally, I think it was only probably
about a year, a year and a bitafter I returned to the court,
but I probably say I was.
I felt like my true self, as Iwas before I was pregnant.
Sue Anstiss (23:00):
Are you pleased that you came back?
Was it the right decision tocome back?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (23:04):
Definitely.
I'm pleased that I came backbecause I think I proved to
myself more than anything that Ican do it.
I talked about the mentalresilience and toughness that I
built over my time in Bath andoverseas, and I think this was
another challenge that I kind ofproved to myself.
That you put your mind tosomething, you can achieve
absolutely anything.
I think we just saw VenusWilliams the other day just win
(23:25):
a tennis match at 45 years oldand I thought her interview was
right, hit the nail on the head.
She was so inspiring because youhave to commit, you have to
tell yourself every single daythat you can do it.
You have to set the goals andyou you can't have any excuses.
And I think at the time mybiggest inspiration not only was
proving to myself I could do it, but my daughter and I wanted
(23:48):
her to see that I didn't give upmy dreams when I had her, but
she really kind of fueled thatfire for me to go after it again
.
So I'm grateful because, havingreturned, I ended up back in an
England dress, getting a callfrom the Queens and the
Firebirds to go to Australia andplay in what's considered the
best league in the world, againable to take her with me for
(24:08):
that cultural experience, and Ialso was able to get selected
for the Commonwealth Games in2022.
So from that, I guess, snapdecision as to, okay, I'm going
to commit to this.
Actually, the opportunity thatcame from it was tenfold.
Sue Anstiss (24:23):
And I know you are so much around motherhood I was
thinking is there anything moreabout that experience that you
feel people should know aboutand talk about?
I think it's great that youtalked about how tough it is,
because sometimes we we paint apicture of it.
It's easy to come back in ashort time.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (24:37):
I think no one really asked me about okay.
So the feeding journey duringthat I think I remember like
having to pump before a trainingsession, secure my milk in in a
carrier, get to training over atwo-hour training session, do
what I need to do on the court,come out from the court, see
your ice bath but pump again inthe car before actually getting
home.
And it's one of those sasas ofdemand to say, oh, you're
(24:59):
breastfeeding your baby, ratherthan how are you feeding your
baby is the question.
So I remember just feeling alot of pressure around that
during the time that I did haveSavannah.
I was fortunate because I founda way with pumping and was able
to do it for nearly eight tonine months before I stopped and
did combi feeding.
But I think it's one of thosethings that people never ask you
what's the practical nature ofit in terms of getting to
(25:22):
training, organising child care,pumping, looking after your
body and your health checks, andit's the nitty-gritty behind
just getting to training, doingthe training, coming home and
the time that's doing that whichprobably people don't talk
about or really understand.
Sue Anstiss (25:36):
Yeah, that's good.
I think we you very kindly tookpart in the abby war
documentary and talked to abbyabout it and I think that was an
important part for us on a bumpin the road is that we showed
her with the breast pumps andputting the milk in the fridge
during training, and you knowthat was the reality of it and I
but you're absolutely rightSometimes not we skirt over it,
but it's almost the trulypractical side of motherhood
(25:58):
that isn't always talked about.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (25:59):
Yeah, I think , as you say, suze, as Abby
showed, as I've done, as manyother mothers have done, it is
all possible and it's all aboutorganisation planning, and I
think, as an athlete, it's oneof those things you've never had
to think about this, you, and Ithink, as an athlete, it's one
(26:21):
of those things you've never hadto think about this.
You just had to focus onyourself.
So how you develop the abilityto multitask and really be as
efficient in your organizationas possible.
I think, again, it's a lifeskill that's has allowed me to
continue to thrive, even aftermy life in sport.
Sue Anstiss (26:30):
And I have spoken to a number of mothers, both in
team sports but also ultradistance runners and other
athletes, and how motherhoodactually changed their
perspective in a positive wayand that it took some of the
pressure off of just thinkingabout themselves and the sport
and competition.
Did you find that that kind ofbalance came to after motherhood
?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (26:50):
A hundred percent, I think, can you say?
I think as an elite athlete,sometimes you have to be really
quite selfish in order toachieve the real pinnacle, the
echelons or the heights that youwant to achieve.
I think what motherhood taughtme was, in one sense, to be less
selfish, because when I camehome at the end of the day,
savannah didn't care if I won orlost.
All she cared about was theunconditional love that I was
(27:11):
going to show her.
And I think I would sometimes,given the ultimate compasso that
I was, if we'd lost the game,I'd be real salty for a couple
of days because I knew I couldhave done better or what more
could I have done.
I would have analysed the gameto the nth degree If we'd won a
game, probably in the same.
But when I came home toSavannah at the end of the day
and my family and my husband, itwas like they just wanted Ebony
(27:33):
, they don't really care aboutthe result.
They really changed myperspective in that regard.
So when I was in thatenvironment it was all about
110% Ebony putting her best footforward, working relentlessly.
But when I was at home, thatsofter side about how I kind of
reprioritized my priorities, myvalues and around that
environment is what changed.
Sue Anstiss (27:54):
And we're seeing, as you alluded to, more and more
female athletes now returningto professional sport as mothers
.
But how can netball and othersports more broadly better
support those mothers who wantto continue in their athletic
charisma?
And again, I realise thatyou've become a bit of a
spokesperson for this, buttalking in different
environments about it.
But if there were two or threethings that you think that
(28:17):
sports could be doing betterfrom your experience, what would
you highlight?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (28:21):
Yeah, I'm really passionate about this
because I think I spoke toShauna Brown and she was just
saying the comparisons inwomen's rugby and some other
sports.
It is very varied in terms ofsupport that athletes get to
considering motherhood duringtheir elite playing careers and
what I would love to see is thatit was more standardized all
(28:44):
women's sports in terms of thepackage that is provided to them
in terms of support.
So a pelvic health floorconsultant should be absolute
standard for every singleathlete who falls pregnant
during their elite career Guideand specialist sport and
strength and conditioning tohelp with prenatal and postnatal
support.
(29:04):
I think further research intofemale athletes in particular
whilst they're training how to,I guess, take care of their
bodies, and also educationaround fertility issues or in
terms of pregnancy or theoptions in around that, and the
statistics in around the agerange of when it's most optimal
to fall pregnant and theconsiderations as to whether you
(29:25):
want to take career breaking orto explore motherhood needs to
be spoken about more.
So I do think what I would loveto see, like I said,
standardised across all sportsmore investment into the
research in around fertility,motherhood as an elite athlete
and what's the best for thatathlete during the prenatal and
(29:45):
postnatal phase and generallyjust allow athletes to make the
choice rather than fall into aperiod where they've had a
playing career.
They might retire at 34 to 36and then they're considering
motherhood and then theyunderstand the challenges.
So just more education-basedworkshops for all female
athletes in around this topic ata young from, not in grassroots
(30:06):
, but as they're coming throughthe ranks, so they can make
informed choices and it feelswe're in a better space.
Sue Anstiss (30:11):
Isn, isn't it, I feel, even the last five years?
So much more conversationsbeing had and people talking
about it.
I guess it's the action that wenow want to see in place, with
policies and the behaviour ofthose sporting bodies and teams
and leagues.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (30:25):
Yeah, hugely so.
I think we are in a betterplace, but there's so much more
that could be done.
I think we should be screamingloudly about this on all fronts
in all clubs, in all sportingorganisations, in all national
governing bodies.
It's a welfare point of view,it's a responsibility that we
have to the athletes.
It's not something that can bepushed by the waist or side or a
box ticking exercise.
(30:47):
So it's great to see that theconversation has now been
unearthed, but I think thereneeds to be more real action, as
you say, more investment aroundit, to really kind of push this
agenda forward.
Sue Anstiss (30:58):
Excellent.
You've managed to balance yourelite sport career with your
legal career too.
So does it worry you nowlooking at some of those young
professional players comingthrough who might not have a
plan for a career beyond sporthugely?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (31:11):
so I talk about it quite a lot with the
england netball roses actually,and I think I'm a big advocate
for it and, I guess, an exampleof the fact that, unfortunately,
we are still not at the stagewhere we're getting paid the
same as our male counterpartsand that's just the reality of
where we are.
But and we also there's theaspirations for the future that
there'll be a more of an equalpay level between the two sexes.
(31:33):
However, whilst we are in theface that we are, it's really
important that you have a plan b, because you're one move away
from a career-ending injury oreven deselection, and you
shouldn't be left wanting tothink okay, who am I outside of
this dress or this kit, or onthe picture on the court?
I think there should be a realemphasis and a push just okay,
(31:55):
what are the skills andcharacteristics and qualities
that I've developed within thisteam environment or within this
sporting environment that reallycan allow me to function in the
real world?
So I think, yes, there's greatthat athletes, and female
athletes in particular, arepassionate about sport, but we
also have to allow them to andequip them in those environments
to really be able to contributeto society and impact society
(32:18):
outside of that jersey, so theyjust don't have that loss of
identity which was so common weso commonly talk about.
So I know when I've hadconversations with some of the
younger netballers coming up andsaying it's great to be in
these environments, but makesure you get your a levels, make
sure you get your gcscs.
Have you considered highperformance environments at
universities where you can stillplay, still earn your degree?
(32:39):
Because actually when you comeout of it and you go to an
employer, I think the firstquestion I asked got asked was
great that you've been in theroses, great that you've been
representing your country, butactually how you're going to
contribute to our business?
So when I asked the girls thathow you're going to contribute
to, I know, the IT sector, howyou're going to contribute to
the, the medical, the IT sector,how are you going to contribute
to the medical sector?
What are you doing at themoment in terms of work
(33:00):
experience or developing yourskills and qualification outside
of the environment?
That's really going to equipyou later on.
They sometimes scratch theirheads but it's great to be able
to ask those questions becauseit gets them thinking about
being proactive in those spacesright now so that they're not
left wanting.
Sue Anstiss (33:16):
And are the sports doing enough?
Because it's interesting thatyou say it's almost like pushing
the girls, the young women, tothink about that.
But do you think the sports,not just in netball but across
sports are doing enough?
Or, as we become moreprofessional, are they too
concerned about the athletes onthe pitch and performance?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (33:32):
I think it's a really hard one.
I don't think the sports aredoing enough.
But I think it's also a reallyfine balance because the sports
agenda and in terms of sometimescommercial funding, is in terms
of performance and results.
So it's a balance between whywould we be pushing our athletes
to consider careers outside ofthis environment because that's
going to distract from theirperformance and their input
(33:55):
inside our high performancesporting environment.
But I think hopefully I'm anexample.
Dr Leila Guscoff is another onefrom Netball, pamela Cookie is
another one who can really primeexamples of women who've had
careers outside of the sport buthave also thrived on the court
because of that additionalstimulus that they had.
So I think it's not somethingto fear.
(34:15):
I think it's more in terms offinding and navigating a way in
which we can do both you quickthe individual off the court and
actually you never knowactually it might push in my
life their on-court performanceor on-field performance to
actually thrive.
Sue Anstiss (34:29):
And I should say both Pamela and Leila are lovely
guests on the Game Changerspodcast in the past as well,
brilliant, you've seen netballevolve massively across your
career, playing in the UK andplaying in Australia, but what
do you think was the biggestturning point?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (34:48):
do you think for the sport in terms of where
we see it today?
I think in the UK in particular.
I think us winning the gold in2018 was a huge turning point
for us.
I think in terms of thesponsors that came on board Nike
, the increased investment fromthe Lux Fatality it was huge.
And I think in terms of theprofile, sky and the BBC in
(35:08):
particular, really putting moneybehind the sport to create more
visibility for us wasabsolutely huge.
So for netball in the uk, Ithink 2018 was probably the
pivotal turning point.
Um, the development of thefull-time program to allow 24
athletes each year to reallytrain full-time and hone their
skills in that netballenvironment at loughborough
(35:29):
university, I think has paiddividends in terms of the
consistency of the performancesthat we now see with the
englandoses on the internationalstage, but overseas as well.
And I think the emergingnations like Zimbabwe and South
Africa, who are really startingto challenge the top teams
Australia, new Zealand, jamaica,england on that international
(35:50):
stage, has created a much betterinternational competition and I
think as we continue to evolveand network continues to evolve
around the netball continues toevolve around the world outside
of the Commonwealth, I can onlysee the sport go from strength
to strength.
Sue Anstiss (36:02):
It's so important, isn't it?
And I was going to just alludequite similar on the rugby story
too, isn't it?
It's making sure that allnations are developing and
thriving and that it becomescompetitive, because nobody
wants just two or three teams tobe winning everything all the
time.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (36:16):
Yeah, no, you definitely don't want a
monopoly and I think, if you, ifyou actually watch the netball
from zimbabwe and botswana, it'sexciting.
The style, their interpretationof the game, I think is what
every fan wants to see, becauseit really opens your mind as to,
I guess, how the game can beplayed, the adaptations that and
how the game's being viewed.
So I still think again, itwould be really interesting if
(36:44):
there was more investment forthose particular teams on the
international stage, or if wehad a team from America or China
, different territories, givenwe know the prowess in the
basketball arena or theirdominance at the Olympics.
I think it really wouldtranscend the sport and and
again allow the competitionreally to thrive.
Sue Anstiss (36:58):
You're now working as a voice of the game in
commentary with Sky.
So how has stepping into themedia changed how you view the
game or the athletes playing ittoo?
Do you feel you've got a verydifferent perspective now from
the other side?
It's a less tiring perspective,should I?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (37:15):
say In the nicest possible way.
I think it's a real privilegeto be a pundit with Sky Sports
and with the BBC to cover theNetball Super League.
I think, to be able to tell thestories and really tell the
story from a perspective I'vebeen there, I've done it I
understand that feeling, thatemotion, but also to witness how
(37:36):
, like you say say, the sportsevolved and the kind of
professional era that we've kindof we've really stepped into,
is a real honor and privilege.
I think working for Sky andtheir passion about developing
women's sport and creatingvisibility around it obviously
still a long way to go, but Ithink there's a real privilege
for netball in particular whenit doesn't necessarily have a
(37:57):
really stable male counterpartto kind of support.
It has been a really good avenuefor in which for the sports to
travel.
So, um, yeah, it's a lot of fungetting to go to the game.
I don't really see it as work.
I see it as me able to kind ofof every weekend go and lean
into my passion and what was myhobby and just see how this
(38:20):
great game is reallytranscending the lies and also
this year, you'll know, beinginvolved with London Mavericks
playing in big arenas just thespectacle of the game, with more
spectators in there, moreviewership.
It's been really, reallyfascinating to see.
Sue Anstiss (38:35):
And what's been your take on Netball Super
League 2.0 and the newregulations?
You know the new rules andopportunities to score points.
How do you feel it's gone as aseason as we look back now?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (38:46):
I think the second half of the season really
showed where this new NetballSuper League is going to go.
I think the first half of theseason with the super shot
whether you love it or hate it,it's a bit like Marmite I love
it.
I love it.
Good, good, good.
I think fans are a bitundecided, but I also think
teams are really trying to workout how to utilise it as a
tactic within the game.
(39:06):
However, I think the closerresults in the second half of
the season really showed why itis a fantastic addition to the
normal game.
I thought the tendencies at thegames in the visual on the TV
nearly every single game,averaging over 3,500 to 5,000
people in the arena games wasphenomenal to see actually how
(39:28):
people are getting their bums inthe seats in the arena to
support their team and buildtheir affiliations.
And again, I think theviewerships went over because
the games were closer towardsthe end of the season.
So I think it was brilliant.
Credit and kudos to ClaireNelson.
I think she's had to weigh alot of it on her shoulders in
terms of this brand new era, ofwhat it was going to look like,
(39:48):
how it was going to play out.
I'd love to see love to seenetball return to the southwest
in the netball super league atsome point in time, but great to
see the additions of BirminghamPanthers, nottingham Forest and
obviously, the newly rebrandedLondon Mavericks really putting
their stamp on what will be thecompetition that will continue
to really evolve and thrive inthe next couple of years to come
.
Sue Anstiss (40:08):
Yeah, it's exciting to see where it goes.
I mean, obviously, as I'm also,just as a general fan, really
excited to see what happens asteams now announcing their
squads for next season.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (40:18):
Best bit about it because you get to
gossip.
Can you believe she went there?
I didn't think she was leaving.
I love the conversations andthe intrigue that really comes
out of it.
So just never mind if you'rejust a normal fan.
I think even us within theSwatch are saying oh wow, that's
an interesting move.
It's great to see.
Sue Anstiss (40:37):
And that's the bit, isn't it, that builds the
player profile and the following.
You know, fans following.
That's a bit that will thentake us through to the next
season, too.
What's your vision?
Where do you think it might bein five years?
Where would you love it to bein five years time, do you think
?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (40:58):
I'd love it to be with every game being
played in an arena.
I would love it that if everygame was not only streamed but
shown live on one of themainstream broadcast channels.
I'd love to see packed outevery game, with over 5 000
people at every single gameacross the league.
I'd love to see thereintroduction of bigger squads
so 12 people, so to allow moretalent to be able to take to the
court.
Um, I'd love to see a franchiseback in the southwest yes,
because it's a region thatproduced bigger squad so 12
people, so to allow more talentto be able to take the court.
(41:19):
I'd love to see a franchiseback in the Southwest yes,
because it's a region thatproduced so many England players
and has such a history and alegacy.
So, as we talked about earlier,I just wouldn't want younger
players to be able to miss outbecause of travel, access to
elite netball and a franchisewithin this region.
I'd love to see also morefemale leaders at the table, so
more female leaders who areowning and investing in these
(41:39):
clubs and really us takingcharge, but also, yeah, building
more allies from commercialsponsorship and and then an
investment to really propel thesport forward just finally.
Sue Anstiss (41:51):
I'm interested, I guess, when you think about to
young Ebony, what do you thinkyoung Ebony would think now if
she saw you and all you'veachieved and what you're doing
today?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (42:01):
I hope young Ebony would just be proud.
I think it's one of thosethings sometimes like I sit here
now and I've got my dress onthe back of the wall in my
office and the news clippingsfrom 2018.
And I think it doesn'tsometimes feel real.
It feels like that was a wholelife that I wasn't necessarily
(42:22):
involved in.
It feels like such a differentchapter.
But I think young Ebony wouldbe proud that she had a dream
and she went after itwholeheartedly, unreservedly,
and came out of it the otherside, not battered and bruised,
but just grateful for theopportunity and the learnings I
got from it.
So I think I'm at the stage nowwhere I'm really wanting to
(42:43):
give back to sport.
It doesn't have to be netball,but give back in a way that I
can really hope another youngEbony or another individual
who's trying to make their namein their own right can continue
to thrive in this environmentand really reap the rewards in
the same way that I have.
Sue Anstiss (43:02):
How delightful to talk to Ebony and to relive some
of those truly memorablemoments in netball.
She's having such a powerfulimpact for athletes across sport
, sharing her learnings and herwisdom.
If you'd like to hear fromother trailblazers in netball,
as mentioned on the podcast, myprevious guests have included
players like Pamela Cookie andLeila Guscoff, along with Serena
(43:22):
Guthrie and those women leadingthe sport like Liz Nicholl, sue
Campbell and Jo Adams.
There are over 200 episodes ofthe Game Changers that are all
free to listen to on podcastplatforms or from our website at
fearlesswomencouk.
Guests include elite athletes,along with coaches,
entrepreneurs, broadcasters,scientists, journalists and CEOs
(43:44):
all women who are changing thegame in sport.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you can
also find out more about theWomen's Sport Collective, a free
, inclusive community for allwomen working in sport.
We now have over 13,000 membersacross the world, so please do
come and join us.
The whole of my book Game Onthe Unstoppable Rise of Women's
(44:06):
Sport is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Every episode of Series 13 isme reading a chapter of the book
.
Thank you once again to SportEngland for backing the Game
Changers and the Women's SportCollective with the National
Lottery Award, and to Sam Walkerat what Goes On Media, who does
such an excellent job as ourexecutive producer.
Thank you also to my brilliantcolleague at Fearless Women,
(44:29):
kate Hannan.
You can find the Game Changerson all podcast platforms, so
please do follow us now toensure you don't miss out on
future episodes.
Do come and say hello on socialmedia, where you'll find me on
LinkedIn and Instagram at SueAnstis.
The Game Changers Fearlesswomen in sport.
Hello and welcome to the Game Changers the podcast
, where I speak to trailblazingwomen in sport, the leaders,
pioneers and rule breakers whoare reshaping the world of sport
for future generations.
A big, big thank you to ourpartners, sport England, who
support the Game Changerspodcast with a National Lottery
Award.
Cast with a National LotteryAward.
(00:30):
My guest today is anextraordinary woman whose career
spans both elite sport and thelegal world.
Ebony Asura-Brown, formerlyknown as Ebony Beckford-Chambers
, is a former England netballinternational who earned over
100 caps across a phenomenal15-year career.
She was part of thatunforgettable Commonwealth Games
squad that made history in 2018, securing gold for England in
(00:51):
one of the most dramatic netballfinals ever.
But Eben's story goes farbeyond the court.
Alongside competing at thehighest level, she's also
trained and qualified as asolicitor, balancing the intense
demands of sport with herpassion for law and justice.
Ebony is a mother, a leader anda fierce advocate for women in
sport, especially around dualcareers and the challenges of
(01:13):
returning to elite performanceafter pregnancy.
So, ebony, I wonder if I canstart on the Gold Coast and that
extraordinary CommonwealthGames gold medal.
But as you look back today,what are your overriding
memories from that final game inAustralia?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (01:31):
I look back and I think it's just pure joy.
It was one of those momentswhere I jumped about as a little
girl.
I was one of those girls whosat at Wembley Arena and watched
England played.
As a youngster and just dreamedabout wearing that dress and
representing my country, and Ithink back then England were
losing by 30 to Australia andNew Zealand.
(01:53):
So to be at that pivotal momentfor our sport against the
world's best in Australia and toget across the line in the
fashion that we did with theteam that we had, it was just
one of those moments you canreally dream about.
So I'm just grateful for theopportunity to have been part of
that team.
Sue Anstiss (02:12):
And when you went into the game that morning, did
you personally feel that youcould win?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (02:17):
Definitely.
I think, jeeva and I we weresharing at the time and we
probably only had about fourhours sleep because we were so
excited all night we were justlike we've got to go to sleep,
but just the the fact that we'dmade the final and I think, even
if we beat Jamaica in thesemi-final by one.
So I think in our mindsanything would be possible and I
(02:38):
think for us, when we have acoach like Tracy Neville, with
her belief, her passion, justher knowledge of the game, it's
in her we trusted and I think,in terms of executing the game
plan, understanding our roles,at the time we said if we could
stick to it, we could come outwith a great result and luckily
we did.
Sue Anstiss (02:55):
I love the thought of you and Jeeva like naughty
little girls in your room, likechatting and not going to sleep.
Yeah, no, it was was.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (03:03):
I just remember just lying there and
just like, can you believe weactually did it?
And I think it's thatexcitement that you, just you
just realize in the momentyou're on the, you're on the
cusp of something really special, um, not only for yourselves,
but all the the years, the hardwork of the team behind the team
, your family, your friends havebeen on that journey with you.
So, regardless of what theresult was going to be, we knew
(03:24):
we were going to go home with amedal and I think it was really
nice just to sit and live inthat moment at that time.
Sue Anstiss (03:30):
And what was it like when you came back to the
UK?
Because the time I was up withmy family middle of the night
watching, but I think that thattime difference did mean you
perhaps didn't feel as connectedto home and the netball
community.
So what was that like when youreturned?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (03:43):
it was absolutely pandemonium because,
um, we, as you say, we hadn'trealized being, I guess, one
step away about how the countryhad gone netball mad, but also
how many fans and new fans thatcome on the journey with us.
It was only when we we landedback home on that british
airways flight and the captainsaid, can the netball team stay
behind?
We were like what happened?
(04:04):
So everyone else had left theplane and we got escorted
through immigration, got ourbags, we came out and it was
through those doors in thearrival hall where we just saw
that wall of paparazzi camerasabsolutely flashing and we kind
of then got an understanding asto how big that moment had
actually been.
So I think my only one regretwas that only six of us out the
(04:26):
12 came home, because the othersix were still playing in the
Australian New Zealand, thoughit was only any of those
athletes playing in the SuperLeague over here that returned.
So we really kind of shoulderedthe excitement and the the buzz
and around it.
But it was a phenomenal timefor the sport and yeah, I look
back on it really fondly.
Sue Anstiss (04:44):
And, as I mentioned in the introduction, you put on
that red dress over a hundredtimes for your country.
So what did it mean to youevery time you, you ran out and
did that change and evolve overtime as you matured and played
more?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (04:58):
Putting on the red dress for me I think, as
I mentioned, I was that girl atWembley, I think 12 years old,
and mum took me there and thatdream of playing in that
environment in front of theEnglish fans, just to do my
family proud, myself proud, Ithink it's one of those things,
like I said, I used to dreamabout through all the training
sessions that were indoors oroutdoors, in the rain, the snow.
(05:18):
So I think, getting thatopportunity in 2008, debuting
against Malawi, having been theEngland under-21 captain, it
really was that full circlemoment in terms of working hard,
setting a goal and not makingexcuses.
Actually, what can come aboutif you kind of restate, stay the
course?
So to never mind getting theopportunity to wear the England
(05:39):
dress only once, but well, 117times.
In the end, each and everysingle occasion was such a
privilege and such an honour.
I remember it was one of theone of my first coaches, lynn
Gunton, and her words alwaysstick my mind like it's easy
getting into the England team.
The hardest part is actuallystaying there, and especially in
part, as like starting seven.
So I never took it for grantedand, as you say, sue, it did
(06:02):
evolve as I, as I went throughranks.
I started off as a young woman,ended up going to play in
Australia, new Zealand, and findmy trade there, professionally,
coming back and obviously beingpart of the squad but also
becoming a mother.
During my time I was in theEngland Roses dress, so my goals
and my values definitelyevolved personally in amongst
that team setting.
But I couldn't be prouder ofhow I left the dress and
(06:27):
hopefully inspired a few ofthose athletes coming behind me
and you said that you alluded tothat.
Sue Anstiss (06:30):
you played for a very long time and it does take
time to, I guess, to stay in theteam, to be able to stay in the
team, but the resilience thatit takes to stay, both mentally
and physically, able to bemaking that squad over time, how
demanding was it, do you think,for you personally, as you look
back over all those years, tostay at the top of your game for
so long.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (06:51):
I think it was hugely demanding and, I
think, probably my greatestblessing now as I look back in
terms of the mental resilienceand toughness that the sport
allowed me to build each andevery single day.
You had to have a level ofself-belief that was unwavering
compared to anything else.
You had to believe in yourself.
You had to make sure you putyour best foot forward and you
were giving 110% every singletime because the competition was
(07:14):
so fierce.
But I think the lessons that Ilearned from that high
performance or elite environmentreally did equip me with life
skills now that I'vetransitioned out the sport, or
even whilst I was in it and Iwas trying to forge my way in
the legal sector.
So I really put it down to onehaving the best support network
(07:35):
around me friends, family,mentors, even backroom staff.
So on those days where you'requestioning, questioning if
you're going to make it, I thinkthey really kind of reinforce
what your whys are and reallykind of prior to that kind of
nurturing and guiding handthroughout my journey in an
England dress to allow me to goon to achieve what I did.
Sue Anstiss (07:56):
And were there moments when you thought you
might step away from it all Were?
You took that seriously and youthought actually this might be
either too much or I've giventoo much of myself to it all.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (08:06):
A hundred percent, I think.
After we won gold in 2018 onthe Gold Coast, we followed up
that appearance with the WorldCup in Liverpool in 2019 and it
was a long slog over that fouryears and I got married at the
end of 2018 and for me it wasvery much JK and I knew that we
wanted to start a family.
So I remember just beingexhausted with a whistle blue in
(08:29):
Liverpool We'd won a bronzemedal, having beaten South
Africa in the bronze medalplayoff, and I actually thought
that was my time over and done.
And at the end of that 2019year we wanted to start our
family and luckily I fellpregnant before going into the
2020 season and I guess,unfortunately, obviously, covid
then ensued and I was granted anenforced break.
(08:51):
But I think that time away tobecome a mother, to obviously
navigate the pandemic but alsohave the opportunity to return
at the end of 2020 to apre-season with my domestic team
, team Bark, at the time wasprobably a real blessing in
disguise.
Sue Anstiss (09:07):
And I want to talk to you more about motherhood and
come on to that, but I wouldlike to take you back to your
younger years, if I can do justnow, in terms of the beginning
of your netball journey.
So you've talked about beingthat 12-year-old at Wembley and
watching the England team play,but what was the first club you
played for?
England team play, but whatfirst?
What was the first club youplayed for?
Where did you grow up and howdid netball start out as part of
(09:27):
your life.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (09:27):
Oh so at school I was one of those kids
who played absolutely everything.
I guessed that I thought thatmight be the case, yeah like you
could throw me in anywhere andI would just give it a go.
As to whether I was good at itor not was a different question.
But, um, netball's probablywhere I found my passion,
because most of my friendsplayed the sport and I think it
all goes back to having reallygreat enthusiastic, passionate
(09:49):
teachers, because that's whereyou kind of really learn and
start to embed the, that feeling, that competitive spirit that
sport really like gives to you.
So from there, from playing atschool, I joined a club called
epsom downs I'm a Surrey basedgirl, locally so and it was a
great coach called Eunice Smithwho was an ex-England player who
probably pushed me to my limits, probably recognized something
(10:12):
or saw something in me that Iprobably didn't see myself at
the time.
And luckily I then went on toplay for Surrey County and it
was a Surrey County match that Iwas scouted for the England
junior squad.
So I know the pathway is verydifferent now within netball
itself, but I really put it downto the school teachers that I
had really kind of advocatingeach of the sports and why to
(10:34):
get involved and the benefitsthat could accrue from it.
Sue Anstiss (10:37):
Do you ever reflect on what other sports you might
have done if you'd have taken adifferent path?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (10:42):
Oh, I'd love to say I would have been a
gymnast.
Now that I'm six foot one, Ithink I would have been a
football player on even bars, ora tennis player, but I think
Serena Williams has definitelygot that covered.
So, yeah, I'm glad that levelended up being for me.
Sue Anstiss (10:56):
And you're known for your defensive brilliance,
that kind of unique style ofplay.
So how did that develop acrossyour career?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (11:05):
Were you always a defender?
Um, I wasn't always a defender.
So when I first got intoEngland at the end of 17 ranks,
um, they spent a year actuallytrying to make me a shooter.
But I was trialled as adefender.
So, um, I had one-on-onecoaching with Lynn Carpenter, an
ex-England international goalattack, putting up shots week in
, week out.
And I remember going to theEuropean competition and I think
I played the first quarter as agoal shooter and I think I got
(11:27):
seven out of seven.
The second quarter I got twoout of nine and then, ever since
that I was a defender.
Because we the inaccuracy, um,they're like we can use you, but
I don't think it'll be in thatattacking it.
And why?
Why was that, do you think?
Um, I, I think they obviouslysaw my height.
I thought.
I thought, in terms of thenature of how I played, I was
quite a, I guess, had a realgood presence inside the circle
(11:50):
and I really could hold my own.
So I thought they probablyneeded that kind of prowess or
that kind of characteristics inthat attacking circle.
So I'm grateful for theexperience, but also I'm also
glad that they thought I couldstay as a defender and that I
could still play a part on theteam.
I think my ability as adefender really developed over
the coaches that I had whilst Iwas in that England set-up and
(12:10):
it's just more understanding thegame and also growing into, I
guess, as puberty hits and as Ideveloped, matured as a female
athlete, understanding how mybody moved and how I could
utilise it to best effect.
Sue Anstiss (12:22):
And I play goalkeeper.
Goal defence has been myposition over all those years
that I've played, and nowwalking netball, but what do you
think makes a truly greatdefender?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (12:32):
as you look across women playing in those
positions, A truly greatdefender, I would have to say,
has presence, is intimidating,has great communication skills,
because as a defensive pairing,you you're very much leaving,
also leaving the attack from theback.
But I would say that the bestthing I love about being a
(12:52):
defender is the game smarts youhave to have, like I think
you're one step behind,obviously, the attack.
Sue Anstiss (12:57):
So, in terms of strategizing and breaking it
down in the moment, makingreally quick decisions and
acting upon them and trustingyour instinct, I think those all
qualities of a goal defensegoalkeeper and in order to kind
of really contribute to thatteam effort and you joined team
bath in 2006 and part of anincredible squads that won the
super league, I think, fourtimes while you were there, and
(13:19):
you also, as you mentioned, hadsince playing in Australia, in
Perth and Adelaide, and thenlater returned to play in
Queensland.
But if you could look back andrelive one match from across
your career, club or country,what would it be?
What holds the greatestmemories?
I might take the CommonwealthGames gold out of there, that's
fine, I know, I think it's aninteresting.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (13:39):
You always ask me those couple of questions
.
I think the very first SuperLeague title I ever won at Team
Bath, those couple of questions,I think the very first super
league title I ever won at teambath I think I owe lynn gunson
university bath and team bath agreat deal because, um, that's
the really where the foundationfor my skill set and who I am, I
guess, was really built.
I think they they had aphilosophy is that you have to
build the person off the courtin order to affect the
(14:00):
performance on it.
And in the fact that I was ableto study at the University of
Bristol and also develop my, Iguess, netball technical skills
at Bath in a really supportivelike an academy environment
where there was about 20 girlsat the time all searching for
that same goal of wearing thatEngland dress one day, I think I
learnt the foundation of whatit means to train consistently
(14:21):
and to the standard required,through the strength and
conditioning on court craft, thevideo analysis, the nutrition,
the sport psychology of netballand how to prepare myself.
So, um, that environment wasone of the most enriching ones
I've ever been in.
I say in terms of one of thegreatest games.
(14:41):
I think it was winning withthat franchise, because I think
that's where I first learned interms of how hard work and
commitment to a program and avision and a mission really pays
off.
So that first taste, reallywinning at elite level, was
probably really significant tome, and then, as you say,
commonwealth Games, gold, butalso probably when I won my
100th cap in Liverpool.
(15:02):
So, as I say, being that kidwanting to wear the dress once
and then getting to a century infront of a home crowd at a Home
World Cup will live for meforever.
Sue Anstiss (15:13):
And to have family there.
I imagine family and friends.
It's lovely on home soil thatyou could have everyone there
too.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (15:19):
Yeah, I think , if you ask any athlete, a home
games or a home tournament isalways the most rewarding,
fulfilling emotional event,because they live and breathe
the journey with you.
My mum's, one of my greatestrole models in my life, and to
have her there just to witnessmy journey from the very start
to the very end, even when I wasretiring at Commonwealth Games
(15:40):
in 2022, to have my husband andmy daughter there, you know how
much it means to them becausethey've lived the laughter,
they've lived the tears, they'velived the injuries, so it just
becomes one of those things inlife that again, you just
understand how strong thatcommunity is.
Sue Anstiss (15:55):
Yeah, so important.
Takes a village and all that.
And Netball is often consideredto be more diverse and
inclusive, I think, than otherwomen's team sports.
Did you feel that sense ofinclusion as a player?
Was Netball always a welcomingspace for you as a woman of
colour?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (16:12):
Yeah, very much.
So I think I had great again,great models within the team,
the likes of Sonia McClover,amanda Newton, who was the
captain at the time.
So there was, as you say, goodrepresentation of women of
colour within my sport, and Ialways say that if you want to
achieve it, you've got to see it, to believe it, to achieve it.
And I was able to see thestrong, independent, athletic,
(16:33):
intelligent women in the teamand I could.
I allowed me to not only aspirebut understand that.
That's where I could be and bethe best person that I could be,
regardless of my race or mygender or anything else.
Sue Anstiss (16:45):
And is there more the sport can do?
Do you think in terms ofgrowing itself in diversity and
making sure all girls feel thatnetball is a place they can be?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (16:55):
There's always more all sport can do.
I think it's one of thosethings that England and netball
in particular.
We've obviously got eight clubsin different areas around the
country at the moment whosupport the elite game.
However, there's lots of innercommunities in London or up
north that there's probablyprobably untouched resource and
girls who probably don't havethe access or the means in which
(17:18):
to travel the distance in orderto access, probably, elite
training, although those leakstraining environments.
So I think there's always moreinvestment that can come into
the sport to allow for thoseopportunities, because we've
seen how impactful sport can bewhen you have the opportunity to
access it and get the qualitycoaching that we all really have
the right to and deserve toaccess.
Sue Anstiss (17:39):
Absolutely.
You mentioned earlier, in termsof motherhood, when you had
your daughter Savannah andreturned to Elite Netball.
It really kind of madeheadlines at the time.
So was returning to the sportalways in your plan?
You talked about that end of2019 and then COVID, but in your
mind did you feel you wouldcome back?
If I be?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (17:57):
honest no, I didn't.
I think after 2019, it was.
I didn't announce my retirement,but I was just remember just
feeling exhausted and I justironically, if I reflect now I
was potentially starting afamily at that time a bit more
of a oh.
It's going to give me the breakthat I want, not really
(18:17):
realizing what pregnancy andthere's a toll that it takes in
the body really entailed.
But after getting pregnant withSavannah and having the
conversation with Dr AnnaStembridge, who was my coach at
the time, and but also justseeing the support that the
University of Bath and Team Bathpoured out to me at the time,
it really kind of allowed me tokind of feel like, ok, I can do
this and perhaps when I have thebaby I could return.
(18:42):
And the more that I went on,especially in those early months
, that first trimester, it didthen become a goal.
I think there was no rusharound it which allowed me the
time, the space, the freedom toenjoy this new chapter and
around it which allowed me thetime, the space, the freedom to
enjoy this new chapter, but alsoknow that a community and
something that had been part ofmy identity so long there's
(19:02):
still a door open.
Sue Anstiss (19:03):
It didn't mean the signal, the end of my career, if
I didn't want it to be.
And I think just to clarify forthose that might not be as big
a netball fan, but AnnaStenbridge is Anna Mays as was
so you'd worked with as anEngland national coach, kind of
in prior existence, almostbefore her then being in the
Bath role.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (19:17):
Yeah, so Anna and I she was my coach under
21s, I'd played with Ella atBath and then she had been my
coach for a number of seasons,so we'd had a really strong
relationship.
To be honest, I think again I'mreally grateful, probably, that
she was the head coach at thattime, because the level of
understanding as to who I wasaway from the court I think was
really impactful and critical interms of my decision as to
(19:41):
return thereafter.
Sue Anstiss (19:42):
I was going to ask you about mentors and other
teammates and so on that havehad a big impact on your career
and I feel I mean, she's anamazing woman, isn't she?
But clearly Jess Thelby wasthere at Bath too, so I guess
that whole importance of havingthat team around to enable your
return it's huge.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (20:00):
It's huge, and I think we talk about the
relationship between the athleteand the coach and how important
that is, how trusted that is.
But I couldn't have done what Idid without their support and
the importance of mentors, theimportance of having women who
are supporting other women inall those spaces not just in
terms of that output on thecourt is so necessary.
(20:24):
I think at the time I was alsodoing my training contracts or
I'd just finished my trainingcontract contract, so I had a
really supportive partner at mylaw firm at the time who really
understood what my aspirationswere, what my ambitions were,
and provided a space where theywere.
They were more solution focusedrather than seeing it as a
hindrance or a problem.
So it's about being, I guess,as an individual, just
(20:47):
committing to what it is youwant to do, or articulating what
it is you want to do,committing to the, the steps or
the boundaries or markers thatare placed in front of you, but
also working with those aroundyou to try and make sure that
you can achieve them and do themto the best of your ability.
Sue Anstiss (21:01):
And what was the reality of that comeback like in
terms of how you feltemotionally and physically too,
because I think we are talkingmore about it, but it is good to
understand the reality of thesituation.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (21:13):
It was hell on earth, and I don't say that
lightly because I think I wassuch sorry, very much in the
dark, as to how much pregnancywould change my body, my
understanding of my body imageat the time.
I always knew that my bodylooked a certain way and just in
terms of allowing to sit inthat space where I'm a lot
(21:36):
softer, I'm not as muscular, I'm, I guess, more tired than
normal and I think once, havinghad Savannah I had a natural
birth with Savannah and I justremember that first time
stepping into the gym and howweak I felt and just in
comparing myself, I guess, tothe other girls in the room and
just questioning like, why am Idoing this, why am I here, was a
(21:58):
real shock and, I think, a realmental challenge.
And I say it to anyone as aissue considering, obviously,
motherhood whilst they're in themiddle of their elite career.
It is possible.
I've obviously shown that it is, but don't underestimate that
that's first time stepping inthe gym.
It's going to be a real shockto the system.
But I think, again, without thesupport from the strength
(22:19):
conditioning coach, rickyMessiah, who was really gentle
in his approach, we really builta timeline of short, medium and
long-term goals and the markersthat I would have to hit.
I worked together with a pelvicfloor Emma Brockwell, the
pelvic floor health consultant.
So, again, not looking just torush me back to that sporting
(22:46):
environment, but to make surethat when I did return, I'd
return in the safest and bestway for me as a woman as well as
an athlete.
So it really was about justtaking one day at a time,
putting each of the weekstogether, putting all the months
together, putting each of theweeks together, putting all the
months together and then finally, I think it was only probably
about a year, a year and a bitafter I returned to the court,
but I probably say I was.
I felt like my true self, as Iwas before I was pregnant.
Sue Anstiss (23:00):
Are you pleased that you came back?
Was it the right decision tocome back?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (23:04):
Definitely.
I'm pleased that I came backbecause I think I proved to
myself more than anything that Ican do it.
I talked about the mentalresilience and toughness that I
built over my time in Bath andoverseas, and I think this was
another challenge that I kind ofproved to myself.
That you put your mind tosomething, you can achieve
absolutely anything.
I think we just saw VenusWilliams the other day just win
(23:25):
a tennis match at 45 years oldand I thought her interview was
right, hit the nail on the head.
She was so inspiring because youhave to commit, you have to
tell yourself every single daythat you can do it.
You have to set the goals andyou you can't have any excuses.
And I think at the time mybiggest inspiration not only was
proving to myself I could do it, but my daughter and I wanted
(23:48):
her to see that I didn't give upmy dreams when I had her, but
she really kind of fueled thatfire for me to go after it again
.
So I'm grateful because, havingreturned, I ended up back in an
England dress, getting a callfrom the Queens and the
Firebirds to go to Australia andplay in what's considered the
best league in the world, againable to take her with me for
(24:08):
that cultural experience, and Ialso was able to get selected
for the Commonwealth Games in2022.
So from that, I guess, snapdecision as to, okay, I'm going
to commit to this.
Actually, the opportunity thatcame from it was tenfold.
Sue Anstiss (24:23):
And I know you are so much around motherhood I was
thinking is there anything moreabout that experience that you
feel people should know aboutand talk about?
I think it's great that youtalked about how tough it is,
because sometimes we we paint apicture of it.
It's easy to come back in ashort time.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (24:37):
I think no one really asked me about okay.
So the feeding journey duringthat I think I remember like
having to pump before a trainingsession, secure my milk in in a
carrier, get to training over atwo-hour training session, do
what I need to do on the court,come out from the court, see
your ice bath but pump again inthe car before actually getting
home.
And it's one of those sasas ofdemand to say, oh, you're
(24:59):
breastfeeding your baby, ratherthan how are you feeding your
baby is the question.
So I remember just feeling alot of pressure around that
during the time that I did haveSavannah.
I was fortunate because I founda way with pumping and was able
to do it for nearly eight tonine months before I stopped and
did combi feeding.
But I think it's one of thosethings that people never ask you
what's the practical nature ofit in terms of getting to
(25:22):
training, organising child care,pumping, looking after your
body and your health checks, andit's the nitty-gritty behind
just getting to training, doingthe training, coming home and
the time that's doing that whichprobably people don't talk
about or really understand.
Sue Anstiss (25:36):
Yeah, that's good.
I think we you very kindly tookpart in the abby war
documentary and talked to abbyabout it and I think that was an
important part for us on a bumpin the road is that we showed
her with the breast pumps andputting the milk in the fridge
during training, and you knowthat was the reality of it and I
but you're absolutely rightSometimes not we skirt over it,
but it's almost the trulypractical side of motherhood
(25:58):
that isn't always talked about.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (25:59):
Yeah, I think , as you say, suze, as Abby
showed, as I've done, as manyother mothers have done, it is
all possible and it's all aboutorganisation planning, and I
think, as an athlete, it's oneof those things you've never had
to think about this, you, and Ithink, as an athlete, it's one
(26:21):
of those things you've never hadto think about this.
You just had to focus onyourself.
So how you develop the abilityto multitask and really be as
efficient in your organizationas possible.
I think, again, it's a lifeskill that's has allowed me to
continue to thrive, even aftermy life in sport.
Sue Anstiss (26:30):
And I have spoken to a number of mothers, both in
team sports but also ultradistance runners and other
athletes, and how motherhoodactually changed their
perspective in a positive wayand that it took some of the
pressure off of just thinkingabout themselves and the sport
and competition.
Did you find that that kind ofbalance came to after motherhood
?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (26:50):
A hundred percent, I think, can you say?
I think as an elite athlete,sometimes you have to be really
quite selfish in order toachieve the real pinnacle, the
echelons or the heights that youwant to achieve.
I think what motherhood taughtme was, in one sense, to be less
selfish, because when I camehome at the end of the day,
savannah didn't care if I won orlost.
All she cared about was theunconditional love that I was
(27:11):
going to show her.
And I think I would sometimes,given the ultimate compasso that
I was, if we'd lost the game,I'd be real salty for a couple
of days because I knew I couldhave done better or what more
could I have done.
I would have analysed the gameto the nth degree If we'd won a
game, probably in the same.
But when I came home toSavannah at the end of the day
and my family and my husband, itwas like they just wanted Ebony
(27:33):
, they don't really care aboutthe result.
They really changed myperspective in that regard.
So when I was in thatenvironment it was all about
110% Ebony putting her best footforward, working relentlessly.
But when I was at home, thatsofter side about how I kind of
reprioritized my priorities, myvalues and around that
environment is what changed.
Sue Anstiss (27:54):
And we're seeing, as you alluded to, more and more
female athletes now returningto professional sport as mothers
.
But how can netball and othersports more broadly better
support those mothers who wantto continue in their athletic
charisma?
And again, I realise thatyou've become a bit of a
spokesperson for this, buttalking in different
environments about it.
But if there were two or threethings that you think that
(28:17):
sports could be doing betterfrom your experience, what would
you highlight?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (28:21):
Yeah, I'm really passionate about this
because I think I spoke toShauna Brown and she was just
saying the comparisons inwomen's rugby and some other
sports.
It is very varied in terms ofsupport that athletes get to
considering motherhood duringtheir elite playing careers and
what I would love to see is thatit was more standardized all
(28:44):
women's sports in terms of thepackage that is provided to them
in terms of support.
So a pelvic health floorconsultant should be absolute
standard for every singleathlete who falls pregnant
during their elite career Guideand specialist sport and
strength and conditioning tohelp with prenatal and postnatal
support.
(29:04):
I think further research intofemale athletes in particular
whilst they're training how to,I guess, take care of their
bodies, and also educationaround fertility issues or in
terms of pregnancy or theoptions in around that, and the
statistics in around the agerange of when it's most optimal
to fall pregnant and theconsiderations as to whether you
(29:25):
want to take career breaking orto explore motherhood needs to
be spoken about more.
So I do think what I would loveto see, like I said,
standardised across all sportsmore investment into the
research in around fertility,motherhood as an elite athlete
and what's the best for thatathlete during the prenatal and
(29:45):
postnatal phase and generallyjust allow athletes to make the
choice rather than fall into aperiod where they've had a
playing career.
They might retire at 34 to 36and then they're considering
motherhood and then theyunderstand the challenges.
So just more education-basedworkshops for all female
athletes in around this topic ata young from, not in grassroots
(30:06):
, but as they're coming throughthe ranks, so they can make
informed choices and it feelswe're in a better space.
Sue Anstiss (30:11):
Isn, isn't it, I feel, even the last five years?
So much more conversationsbeing had and people talking
about it.
I guess it's the action that wenow want to see in place, with
policies and the behaviour ofthose sporting bodies and teams
and leagues.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (30:25):
Yeah, hugely so.
I think we are in a betterplace, but there's so much more
that could be done.
I think we should be screamingloudly about this on all fronts
in all clubs, in all sportingorganisations, in all national
governing bodies.
It's a welfare point of view,it's a responsibility that we
have to the athletes.
It's not something that can bepushed by the waist or side or a
box ticking exercise.
(30:47):
So it's great to see that theconversation has now been
unearthed, but I think thereneeds to be more real action, as
you say, more investment aroundit, to really kind of push this
agenda forward.
Sue Anstiss (30:58):
Excellent.
You've managed to balance yourelite sport career with your
legal career too.
So does it worry you nowlooking at some of those young
professional players comingthrough who might not have a
plan for a career beyond sporthugely?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (31:11):
so I talk about it quite a lot with the
england netball roses actually,and I think I'm a big advocate
for it and, I guess, an exampleof the fact that, unfortunately,
we are still not at the stagewhere we're getting paid the
same as our male counterpartsand that's just the reality of
where we are.
But and we also there's theaspirations for the future that
there'll be a more of an equalpay level between the two sexes.
(31:33):
However, whilst we are in theface that we are, it's really
important that you have a plan b, because you're one move away
from a career-ending injury oreven deselection, and you
shouldn't be left wanting tothink okay, who am I outside of
this dress or this kit, or onthe picture on the court?
I think there should be a realemphasis and a push just okay,
(31:55):
what are the skills andcharacteristics and qualities
that I've developed within thisteam environment or within this
sporting environment that reallycan allow me to function in the
real world?
So I think, yes, there's greatthat athletes, and female
athletes in particular, arepassionate about sport, but we
also have to allow them to andequip them in those environments
to really be able to contributeto society and impact society
(32:18):
outside of that jersey, so theyjust don't have that loss of
identity which was so common weso commonly talk about.
So I know when I've hadconversations with some of the
younger netballers coming up andsaying it's great to be in
these environments, but makesure you get your a levels, make
sure you get your gcscs.
Have you considered highperformance environments at
universities where you can stillplay, still earn your degree?
(32:39):
Because actually when you comeout of it and you go to an
employer, I think the firstquestion I asked got asked was
great that you've been in theroses, great that you've been
representing your country, butactually how you're going to
contribute to our business?
So when I asked the girls thathow you're going to contribute
to, I know, the IT sector, howyou're going to contribute to
the, the medical, the IT sector,how are you going to contribute
to the medical sector?
What are you doing at themoment in terms of work
(33:00):
experience or developing yourskills and qualification outside
of the environment?
That's really going to equipyou later on.
They sometimes scratch theirheads but it's great to be able
to ask those questions becauseit gets them thinking about
being proactive in those spacesright now so that they're not
left wanting.
Sue Anstiss (33:16):
And are the sports doing enough?
Because it's interesting thatyou say it's almost like pushing
the girls, the young women, tothink about that.
But do you think the sports,not just in netball but across
sports are doing enough?
Or, as we become moreprofessional, are they too
concerned about the athletes onthe pitch and performance?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (33:32):
I think it's a really hard one.
I don't think the sports aredoing enough.
But I think it's also a reallyfine balance because the sports
agenda and in terms of sometimescommercial funding, is in terms
of performance and results.
So it's a balance between whywould we be pushing our athletes
to consider careers outside ofthis environment because that's
going to distract from theirperformance and their input
(33:55):
inside our high performancesporting environment.
But I think hopefully I'm anexample.
Dr Leila Guscoff is another onefrom Netball, pamela Cookie is
another one who can really primeexamples of women who've had
careers outside of the sport buthave also thrived on the court
because of that additionalstimulus that they had.
So I think it's not somethingto fear.
(34:15):
I think it's more in terms offinding and navigating a way in
which we can do both you quickthe individual off the court and
actually you never knowactually it might push in my
life their on-court performanceor on-field performance to
actually thrive.
Sue Anstiss (34:29):
And I should say both Pamela and Leila are lovely
guests on the Game Changerspodcast in the past as well,
brilliant, you've seen netballevolve massively across your
career, playing in the UK andplaying in Australia, but what
do you think was the biggestturning point?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (34:48):
do you think for the sport in terms of where
we see it today?
I think in the UK in particular.
I think us winning the gold in2018 was a huge turning point
for us.
I think in terms of thesponsors that came on board Nike
, the increased investment fromthe Lux Fatality it was huge.
And I think in terms of theprofile, sky and the BBC in
(35:08):
particular, really putting moneybehind the sport to create more
visibility for us wasabsolutely huge.
So for netball in the uk, Ithink 2018 was probably the
pivotal turning point.
Um, the development of thefull-time program to allow 24
athletes each year to reallytrain full-time and hone their
skills in that netballenvironment at loughborough
(35:29):
university, I think has paiddividends in terms of the
consistency of the performancesthat we now see with the
englandoses on the internationalstage, but overseas as well.
And I think the emergingnations like Zimbabwe and South
Africa, who are really startingto challenge the top teams
Australia, new Zealand, jamaica,england on that international
(35:50):
stage, has created a much betterinternational competition and I
think as we continue to evolveand network continues to evolve
around the netball continues toevolve around the world outside
of the Commonwealth, I can onlysee the sport go from strength
to strength.
Sue Anstiss (36:02):
It's so important, isn't it?
And I was going to just alludequite similar on the rugby story
too, isn't it?
It's making sure that allnations are developing and
thriving and that it becomescompetitive, because nobody
wants just two or three teams tobe winning everything all the
time.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (36:16):
Yeah, no, you definitely don't want a
monopoly and I think, if you, ifyou actually watch the netball
from zimbabwe and botswana, it'sexciting.
The style, their interpretationof the game, I think is what
every fan wants to see, becauseit really opens your mind as to,
I guess, how the game can beplayed, the adaptations that and
how the game's being viewed.
So I still think again, itwould be really interesting if
(36:44):
there was more investment forthose particular teams on the
international stage, or if wehad a team from America or China
, different territories, givenwe know the prowess in the
basketball arena or theirdominance at the Olympics.
I think it really wouldtranscend the sport and and
again allow the competitionreally to thrive.
Sue Anstiss (36:58):
You're now working as a voice of the game in
commentary with Sky.
So how has stepping into themedia changed how you view the
game or the athletes playing ittoo?
Do you feel you've got a verydifferent perspective now from
the other side?
It's a less tiring perspective,should I?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (37:15):
say In the nicest possible way.
I think it's a real privilegeto be a pundit with Sky Sports
and with the BBC to cover theNetball Super League.
I think, to be able to tell thestories and really tell the
story from a perspective I'vebeen there, I've done it I
understand that feeling, thatemotion, but also to witness how
(37:36):
, like you say say, the sportsevolved and the kind of
professional era that we've kindof we've really stepped into,
is a real honor and privilege.
I think working for Sky andtheir passion about developing
women's sport and creatingvisibility around it obviously
still a long way to go, but Ithink there's a real privilege
for netball in particular whenit doesn't necessarily have a
(37:57):
really stable male counterpartto kind of support.
It has been a really good avenuefor in which for the sports to
travel.
So, um, yeah, it's a lot of fungetting to go to the game.
I don't really see it as work.
I see it as me able to kind ofof every weekend go and lean
into my passion and what was myhobby and just see how this
(38:20):
great game is reallytranscending the lies and also
this year, you'll know, beinginvolved with London Mavericks
playing in big arenas just thespectacle of the game, with more
spectators in there, moreviewership.
It's been really, reallyfascinating to see.
Sue Anstiss (38:35):
And what's been your take on Netball Super
League 2.0 and the newregulations?
You know the new rules andopportunities to score points.
How do you feel it's gone as aseason as we look back now?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (38:46):
I think the second half of the season really
showed where this new NetballSuper League is going to go.
I think the first half of theseason with the super shot
whether you love it or hate it,it's a bit like Marmite I love
it.
I love it.
Good, good, good.
I think fans are a bitundecided, but I also think
teams are really trying to workout how to utilise it as a
tactic within the game.
(39:06):
However, I think the closerresults in the second half of
the season really showed why itis a fantastic addition to the
normal game.
I thought the tendencies at thegames in the visual on the TV
nearly every single game,averaging over 3,500 to 5,000
people in the arena games wasphenomenal to see actually how
(39:28):
people are getting their bums inthe seats in the arena to
support their team and buildtheir affiliations.
And again, I think theviewerships went over because
the games were closer towardsthe end of the season.
So I think it was brilliant.
Credit and kudos to ClaireNelson.
I think she's had to weigh alot of it on her shoulders in
terms of this brand new era, ofwhat it was going to look like,
(39:48):
how it was going to play out.
I'd love to see love to seenetball return to the southwest
in the netball super league atsome point in time, but great to
see the additions of BirminghamPanthers, nottingham Forest and
obviously, the newly rebrandedLondon Mavericks really putting
their stamp on what will be thecompetition that will continue
to really evolve and thrive inthe next couple of years to come
.
Sue Anstiss (40:08):
Yeah, it's exciting to see where it goes.
I mean, obviously, as I'm also,just as a general fan, really
excited to see what happens asteams now announcing their
squads for next season.
Eboni Osoro-Brown (40:18):
Best bit about it because you get to
gossip.
Can you believe she went there?
I didn't think she was leaving.
I love the conversations andthe intrigue that really comes
out of it.
So just never mind if you'rejust a normal fan.
I think even us within theSwatch are saying oh wow, that's
an interesting move.
It's great to see.
Sue Anstiss (40:37):
And that's the bit, isn't it, that builds the
player profile and the following.
You know, fans following.
That's a bit that will thentake us through to the next
season, too.
What's your vision?
Where do you think it might bein five years?
Where would you love it to bein five years time, do you think
?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (40:58):
I'd love it to be with every game being
played in an arena.
I would love it that if everygame was not only streamed but
shown live on one of themainstream broadcast channels.
I'd love to see packed outevery game, with over 5 000
people at every single gameacross the league.
I'd love to see thereintroduction of bigger squads
so 12 people, so to allow moretalent to be able to take to the
court.
Um, I'd love to see a franchiseback in the southwest yes,
because it's a region thatproduced bigger squad so 12
people, so to allow more talentto be able to take the court.
(41:19):
I'd love to see a franchiseback in the Southwest yes,
because it's a region thatproduced so many England players
and has such a history and alegacy.
So, as we talked about earlier,I just wouldn't want younger
players to be able to miss outbecause of travel, access to
elite netball and a franchisewithin this region.
I'd love to see also morefemale leaders at the table, so
more female leaders who areowning and investing in these
(41:39):
clubs and really us takingcharge, but also, yeah, building
more allies from commercialsponsorship and and then an
investment to really propel thesport forward just finally.
Sue Anstiss (41:51):
I'm interested, I guess, when you think about to
young Ebony, what do you thinkyoung Ebony would think now if
she saw you and all you'veachieved and what you're doing
today?
Eboni Osoro-Brown (42:01):
I hope young Ebony would just be proud.
I think it's one of thosethings sometimes like I sit here
now and I've got my dress onthe back of the wall in my
office and the news clippingsfrom 2018.
And I think it doesn'tsometimes feel real.
It feels like that was a wholelife that I wasn't necessarily
(42:22):
involved in.
It feels like such a differentchapter.
But I think young Ebony wouldbe proud that she had a dream
and she went after itwholeheartedly, unreservedly,
and came out of it the otherside, not battered and bruised,
but just grateful for theopportunity and the learnings I
got from it.
So I think I'm at the stage nowwhere I'm really wanting to
(42:43):
give back to sport.
It doesn't have to be netball,but give back in a way that I
can really hope another youngEbony or another individual
who's trying to make their namein their own right can continue
to thrive in this environmentand really reap the rewards in
the same way that I have.
Sue Anstiss (43:02):
How delightful to talk to Ebony and to relive some
of those truly memorablemoments in netball.
She's having such a powerfulimpact for athletes across sport
, sharing her learnings and herwisdom.
If you'd like to hear fromother trailblazers in netball,
as mentioned on the podcast, myprevious guests have included
players like Pamela Cookie andLeila Guscoff, along with Serena
(43:22):
Guthrie and those women leadingthe sport like Liz Nicholl, sue
Campbell and Jo Adams.
There are over 200 episodes ofthe Game Changers that are all
free to listen to on podcastplatforms or from our website at
fearlesswomencouk.
Guests include elite athletes,along with coaches,
entrepreneurs, broadcasters,scientists, journalists and CEOs
(43:44):
all women who are changing thegame in sport.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you can
also find out more about theWomen's Sport Collective, a free
, inclusive community for allwomen working in sport.
We now have over 13,000 membersacross the world, so please do
come and join us.
The whole of my book Game Onthe Unstoppable Rise of Women's
(44:06):
Sport is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Every episode of Series 13 isme reading a chapter of the book
.
Thank you once again to SportEngland for backing the Game
Changers and the Women's SportCollective with the National
Lottery Award, and to Sam Walkerat what Goes On Media, who does
such an excellent job as ourexecutive producer.
Thank you also to my brilliantcolleague at Fearless Women,
(44:29):
kate Hannan.
You can find the Game Changerson all podcast platforms, so
please do follow us now toensure you don't miss out on
future episodes.
Do come and say hello on socialmedia, where you'll find me on
LinkedIn and Instagram at SueAnstis.
The Game Changers Fearlesswomen in sport.
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