December 1, 2025 • 51 mins
“We’re at an inflection point - fans, sponsors and the next generation are demanding better. Sport has to decide what future it wants.”
On today’s must listen episode of The Game Changers podcast, pioneering human rights lawyer and Athlead CEO Kat Craig explores how sport can change the world, yet why it too often simply replicates its worst injustices.
Kat offers a compelling blueprint from a world-leading voice: how to move from statements to structure and build safer, fairer sport for everyone.
Driven by what she calls an “allergic reaction to injustice”, Kat charts her path from frontline human rights legal work to a decade inside the sports system, and explains why she founded AthLead, to turn athlete voice, sport-for-good strategy and rights-based governance into meaningful, lasting culture change.
Kat doesn’t shy away from hard truths. Sport’s centralised power and insularity, she argues, create blind spots that silence those most harmed by discrimination and abuse.
We also dive into athlete activism in a polarised era where authenticity matters more than ever, and why better gender balance has the potential to transform sport at every level.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kat Craig (00:04):
I think we're at a really complicated time
societally.
That pushback, that researchthat came out recently, that
young men even in the UK, asignificant percentage thought
gender equality had gone toofar.
I don't even know what thatmeans, and it's terrifying.
Sue Anstiss (00:25):
My guest today on the Game Changers is Kat Craig,
a pioneering human rights lawyerand CEO of Athlete, a
consultancy helping to drivesystemic, transformative change
across sport.
Passionate about sport as aplatform for change, Kat works
with athletes and organisationsacross the globe, helping them
to use their voices to challengeinjustice and inspire progress.
(00:48):
A much respected thought leaderfor safeguarding in sport, Kat
co-authored the UN WomenHandbook Tackling Violence
Against Women and Girls inSport, and has been recognised
by her peers for hertransformative work, receiving
the Sport, Industry, Integrityand Impact Award and the Celia
Brackenbridge Award for Servicesto Safe Sport.
(01:08):
So, Kat, what first drew youinto human rights law and how
does sport become a part of thatjourney?
Kat Craig (01:17):
Hi, Sue, and thank you so much for having me today.
I'm delighted.
I'm an avid listener, and it'sa real privilege to be here with
you today.
And we always have suchwonderful conversations.
It's nice to do it in thiscontext.
I think I was blessed fromquite a young age with a really
diverse friendship group.
I grew up in Rotterdam in theNetherlands, actually, which is
(01:38):
a really multicultural city.
And from a young age, thatmeant I was exposed to quite a
lot of the social inequitiesthat that diverse community
faced.
I remember at school, one of myteachers said I seemed to have
an allergic reaction toinjustice.
I don't think it was acompliment at the time.
And now I'm a little bit olderwith the benefit of hindsight.
(02:00):
It was a crowded state school,so I do feel for them.
But I think that was alwayssort of in me, and I'm really
pleased about that.
And I then contemplated lots ofdifferent careers, came to
sport in quite a roundabout way.
I've been working in sport for10 years, but I did a degree in
social anthropology anddevelopment studies, which is
kind of internationalrelationsy.
(02:20):
And I think that gave me a lotof time to reflect on the
historical and global context,how the world works, how we
organize ourselves and society.
And that's always beensomething I'm really interested
in.
I remember taking a course ingender and culture and looking
at how other societies organizein a matriarchal or a
(02:41):
matrilineal way and how thatimpacted how power was
distributed.
So I think I've always had areal interest in social
injustice as a whole.
And then eventually I did apostgrad in law and became a
human rights lawyer in privatepractice.
And I think, in terms of sport,I played sport from a young
(03:03):
age, poorly, on all accounts.
Lots of different sports, teamsports, individual sports.
Was never brilliant at it, butalways loved it.
Overall had a pretty positiveexperience in sport.
And about 10 years ago, at thetime I was working for an
international human rightscharity as the legal director,
(03:23):
and it just felt that the worldwas increasingly divided.
It was just pre-Trump roundone, pre-Brexit.
And when you want to createpositive social change, you have
to always look at the context.
What's the world around youdoing and saying?
What's the direction of travel?
And it felt at the time prettyclear to me that kind of
(03:46):
adversarial litigation was notgoing to bring this increasingly
fragmented community together.
And so I looked to the placewhere I'd always found community
in commonalities and sharedexperiences, and that was sport.
So I came into the sport sectorreally quite optimistic, hoping
to be able to tell positivestories or challenge injustices
(04:08):
in a really constructive way.
And probably quite naively,actually.
I really didn't understand thesector at the time terribly
well.
But I was fortunate to findsome fellow travellers early on.
And, you know, here we are 10years later, I think very
pleased with having made thatdecision.
Sue Anstiss (04:24):
I was going to say, has it enabled you to do those
things you felt it would do as aplace where you had found
community?
Yes and no.
Kat Craig (04:32):
I think the way that we as people in sport perceive
the sector is very much based onour own paradigm experiences.
It's one of the key challenges,actually, I think, in making
change.
So as a sector, for better orworse, it's quite insular,
right?
We um recruit from within ourown ranks, former athletes, then
(04:54):
start working in sportsgovernance.
I love that.
I think that's a great thing.
But the reality is that thosewho persevere or stay in sport
tend to be the ones who've hadpositive experiences, who devote
leadership and community andand were able to thrive.
And that by its very natureexcludes others who fall by the
(05:16):
wayside side, who had negativeexperiences, who were
discriminated against, whoexperienced abuse.
And so coming into sport andunderstanding across those
different stakeholders a littlebit better how people come to be
in sport, the love that theyhave, the pride they have in
their sport, and sometimes theblind spots that that creates
(05:39):
has meant that yes, I do think Ifound a space where I've had
the opportunity to work withunbelievable people in a way
that I'd never imagined andcreate a change that I'm really
proud to have been a small partof.
But I think there's quite along way to go.
(05:59):
And I think it is a challengingsector to work in, certainly as
a woman.
And as I say, I think I was alittle naive coming into the
sector as a kind of respectedhuman rights lawyer who'd had
all these accolades, and reallyabsolutely nobody cared because
it's a very relational sector,right?
Unless three different peoplewill vouch for you, nobody will
give you the time of day.
(06:20):
And lawyers are quiteunderstandably distrusted.
But you know, I always feelthat being a human rights lawyer
is a bit different.
It's not a big paycheck kind ofjob.
And so, yeah, there was a bitof learning on my side for sure,
in terms of how I positioned itand yeah, finding good people,
finding your tribe, finding youryour group who of fellow
(06:42):
travellers, ultimately I'm verypleased with the decision.
I wouldn't wouldn't change itfor the world.
Sue Anstiss (06:47):
That's good to hear.
And you I have heard you say inthe past of sport being such a
driver of social change, asyou've alluded to there, but
also a reflection of deepinequality.
So what do you mean by that?
Kat Craig (07:00):
Sport is a mirror of society.
If you look at it from justthrough the gender lens, I work
on a range of different humanrights issues, but let's look at
it through the lens of gender.
We've had this incredible fewweeks of women's sport where we
can challenge stereotypes.
We've seen research coming uprecently, again reiterating that
girls who play sport have agreater chance of taking up
(07:25):
leadership roles.
But because it's a microcosm ofsociety, it also mirrors all
the social issues likeinequality and discrimination.
And similar, but not the same,the struggle for equality and
inclusion and all of thebacklash and the tensions that
come from that.
So I think it it can be a hugeforce for change.
(07:45):
I think we still have some wayto go in understanding that
sports governance structures arevery centralized.
It's a centralized power base.
And in every single area ofhuman rights I've ever worked
for 30 years, when you havecentralized power bases with a
(08:07):
lack of diversity in leadershipand a lack of voice and counter
movements, there's always goingto be an exploitation of
vulnerable members in thecommunity, right?
So I think there are intrinsicrisk factors connected to how
sport operates that we're stillcoming to terms with.
And again, you look at thoseparadigm experiences, there's a
(08:29):
bit of unconscious resistancesometimes for those in sport
because, and I share that,right?
There are sports that I loveand that I'm really proud of,
and you have those blind spotsbecause you don't want your
memories of watching games orplaying sports to be tarnished
by these quite dark sides ofsport.
(08:50):
So there's a little bit ofcognitive dissonance that I
think we're still workingthrough as a sector.
But there are many, many peoplewho are challenging that and
changing that.
Sue Anstiss (09:00):
I love that.
You're only I love always lovetalking to you because it opens
my mind to things.
But uh, yeah, there's so muchtrue isn't that whole slightly
slightly defensive of the thingsthat we love and not wishing
someone else to to shine a lightperhaps on that.
And I do want to talk to youmore around uh the governance
piece and organizations, but butfirst of all, I'd like to take
a little bit to chat aboutAthlete and and the kind of
(09:21):
story behind your founding thatas an organization.
So back in 2016, I think itwas.
What what gap did you see inthe landscape that no one else
was filling that that requiredthat?
Kat Craig (09:32):
Yeah, I I was always really interested in this
intersection between sport andsociety.
Frankly, I'd been working atthe front line of human rights
in conflict zones, some of themost horrible things that people
can do to each other.
And I was pretty close toburnout.
And uh, having had a broadlypositive experience in sport and
(09:56):
seen how it can really buildcommunities, I was keen to
create a space where we couldreally lead with that.
And in the US, there was thismovement forming around athletes
speaking out on key socialissues.
(10:17):
Colin Kaepernick, rememberSerena Williams read that
beautiful poem, um, Still IRise, the Maya Angelou one.
And I went over to the US, Idid a postgrad in sports
philanthropy at GeorgeWashington, and saw that there
were these, you know, everyrookie MBA player would set up a
(10:37):
foundation, for better or forworse, frankly.
And social change making is anart.
There's a talent to it, thereare pitfalls and opportunities.
And I saw a real gap to try andhelp athletes be really
thoughtful about what theirpower, privilege, opportunities
(11:01):
were, well beyond theircheckbook, and to speak
authentically about issues thatthey cared about.
And so that's how we started.
That's not how we finished.
We did some amazing work andand still work with individual
athletes on a range of issues,but as is often the case, kind
of life got in the way a littlebit, and within weeks, I think,
(11:26):
of formally setting up athlete,I got a phone call, funnily
enough, from an actor calledDavid Morrissey.
He used to be in variousthings.
Uh, and I'd worked with him inthe previous charity I worked
with, and he said, Have you seenthis stuff in the news of all
of the men speaking out aboutabuse in football?
And it was the group of menthat ultimately founded the
(11:47):
Offside Trust and various otherorganizations, and he said, They
really need some advice on howto tackle this.
It's a tricky issue, they'restruggling.
Can you help?
So, um, one of the early piecesof work that that we did,
alongside perhaps some of theeasier social issues around kind
of, you know, children's rightsor how you grow potential in
(12:11):
young people, was working withthe offside trust, who are the
very, very courageous men whofinally broke the silence after
decades of abuse.
So that's where it where itstarted.
And I'm I'm very grateful forthat opportunity.
I learned an awful lot.
And over time that justtransformed into gaining better
(12:31):
insights into the working sport.
Like I say, I came into itnaive.
I think it's really importantwhen we do social change work
that we're agile and that we'reconstantly reflecting on
opportunities where thechange-making opportunities lie.
And so now Athlete haseffectively three pillars of its
work.
One is around athlete voice,and we've worked with amazing
athletes, Johnny Wilkinson,Giovanni van Bronckhorst,
(12:54):
Vanessa Wallace, who's anamazing Paralympian, who really
early on in my career was verykind in bringing me along to
things.
Molly McCann, the UFC fighternow boxer.
Um, but that's part of ourwork.
We have a team that worksspecifically around sport for
good, so sport for developmentand how we strategically use
(13:16):
resources to challenge socialissues.
And then the third pillar isreally around helping sports
bodies to think about theirhuman rights obligations, think
about environmental, social,good governance issues, and how
they can bake that into thestructure of sport to try and
build a new generation ofgovernance and sports bodies
(13:39):
that don't do this as a sideproject, where you just kind of
have a charitable foundation,but really do a body scan of the
whole organization.
How do we think and feel aboutourselves?
How do we want others to speakabout that?
Who are all of the differentstakeholders in our environment?
How do we bring them along inthat conversation?
So it's been it's been quitethe journey, so it does it's
(14:01):
really interesting, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss (14:02):
Because I still often think of you as that early
iteration.
And I imagine the working, andyeah, I of course I also know
the work that you're doing withthe organizations, but I feel
the the organizational work, themore the infrastructure, feels
like it'll have far more impactpotentially long term than
working with individual athletesas a business.
Is that how do you measure thekind of impact of that different
(14:24):
work you're having in thosedifferent pillars?
Kat Craig (14:27):
Yeah, I hear you on that.
I've always struggled a littlebit with this micro-macro.
Because if you look at howsocial change has happened
historically across differentcountries, cultures, issues,
timelines, the voices of thosewho were impacted are really the
(14:47):
lightning rod for change.
And it's very difficult assomeone who has experienced a
human rights abuse to then alsoadvocate for it.
So allyship, I think, is reallyimportant, and working with
athlete allies is a reallyinteresting part of our work.
But I think it has to startthere, and I think you have to a
little bit be at the coalfaceto have a really deep
(15:10):
understanding of what the issuesare.
It has to start with theexperience of people and
understanding where things havegone wrong.
It's a diagnostic approach.
And without doing that part ofthe work, it's very difficult to
understand how to createsystems change.
(15:31):
So it's a bit of a kind ofcontraction and expansion
exercise.
You have to zoom in and zoomout, and that can be quite
challenging.
And I think in sport, which isquite a hierarchical structure,
you know, there's a lot ofgoverning bodies who just
because of the nature of thework aren't always haven't got
their ear to the ground.
(15:52):
I think the two seem at quiteopposite ends, but in practice
they're really interconnected ina way that we can't we can't
unpick and we don't want tounpick.
So the two feed into each otheractually in a quite a nice
complementary way.
Sue Anstiss (16:08):
Do you think that activism of athletes is is a bit
of an expectation, especiallywhen they have that high profile
now, or does it still takegreat courage for them to stand
up and you know speak outpublicly?
Kat Craig (16:21):
Well, I think that was one of our big learnings is
that perhaps firstly, not alltrends in sport that start in
America translate to the rest ofthe world.
And we work globally, so we'veseen it's really a
country-by-country basis.
The way that people respond toathlete activism or athlete
(16:43):
advocacy or athlete philanthropyis different.
I think in the UK it is reallychallenging.
I think it does require a lotof courage and a lot of thought.
The best example I have of thisis Marcus Rashford.
And I didn't have anything todo with the work that he did,
but I can't fault it.
(17:04):
I think it was a flawlesscampaign.
He had an authentic connectionto the issue.
He spoke about it in verymanageable, palatable ways.
Also, it was child poverty.
I mean, you know, how you cantake issue with someone trying
to feed children who are goinghungry.
(17:24):
And he was really thoughtfulabout his advocacy.
It's also wrong to expectMarcus Rashford to solve child
hunger, right?
So it was right that he wasengaging with public bodies and
institutions.
And he got slated for it onvarious occasions.
Now, that's partly the Britishpress and the racism in the
British press and our love of,you know, really building people
(17:46):
up and tearing them down.
But I think that's a real casein point around doing everything
right as an athlete and stillfacing really serious blowback.
So I think it is complicated.
It doesn't mean that athletesshouldn't do it, it doesn't mean
that athletes don't want to doit, it doesn't mean that
athletes can't do it, but it isa matter of really considering
(18:11):
carefully those key factors,right?
Is there an authenticconnection?
What is the scope of anathlete's change-making power?
One of the things that we seeall the time is there not being
enough scope.
I always say to athletes,strategy is about what you say
no to, not what you say yes to.
(18:32):
And then thinking about therisks and the storytelling
around it.
So no, I think it requiresgreat courage.
I strongly resist thisnarrative that athletes have a
an obligation to give back.
I'm really not convinced aboutthat at all.
But I think for those who dowant to advocate and stand in
solidarity or offer theirallyship, there are lots of
(18:53):
small acts that we see fromdifferent athletes that make a
massive difference.
So there's still a space forit.
But we live in an increasinglypolarized society where we've
slightly lost the ability tohold multiple truths and to have
constructive disagreement.
And I think it would be wrongto suggest that athletes, you
know, can't fall victim to that.
(19:13):
So it's a it's a tricky space,but an important one.
Sue Anstiss (19:17):
And looking more broadly across sport, what are
some of the biggest human rightschallenges that the the sector
and sport generally is facingtoday, would you say?
Kat Craig (19:26):
I mean, gosh, all of them, right?
I mean, all of the kind ofthematic issues.
Again, sport's a mirror ofsociety.
I think gender is a big piece,um, because I think it's a big
part of the solution.
I think if you can creategender equity, then things will
significantly improve in societyand in sport.
There's endless research thatshows if you have women making
(19:48):
sensible decisions, or if youhave women, they'll make
sensible decisions.
Women and men together workingcollaboratively, you'll have
sensible decisions.
But again, I think there's alot of value to be added in
terms of thinking about all ofthe unintended consequences of
sport that go beyond those blindspots that we have, right?
Everything from trafficking ofworkers and athletes as workers,
(20:13):
gender, race, mental healthissues, all of those things,
freedom of expression, I thinkare still all issues that we're
trying to tackle sensitively andappropriately in sport.
I would come back again to kindof powers and systems.
It's it's valuable to tacklethose individual issues, but we
(20:35):
don't operate in a microcosm.
Um, we're connected to society.
I saw Comic Relief launched abrilliant fund recently around
violence against women andgirls.
Mary Arps was the face of thecampaign, and there's been real
pushback uh for her as well,which I was really surprised
(20:57):
about.
But, you know, that's the worldthat we live in now.
So I think connecting all ofthose things is really
important.
Trying to understand the powerbase in the systems and how
sport operates is reallyimportant.
And I think that can feel veryoverwhelming, which is giving
you a very vague big pictureanswer.
Uh, and that's partly becauseit's a big picture problem.
(21:19):
But I think where thechallenges sit in
operationalizing that is havinga good grasp of all of those
issues and how they're allinterconnected, right?
Both with each other and withinand outside of sport, and then
kind of breaking it down inmanageable steps.
I think that's something thatI've learned over time that's
(21:40):
really helpful is you have tohave this big picture view, but
just like individual athletetraining goals, or over the
course of a season, you know, Icoach a team and sometimes we
break it down into six-gamechunks, or sometimes you're in
the middle of the game andyou've conceded and you just
need to stabilize for five orten minutes.
So finding a cadence within allof these big issues of when we
(22:03):
push, when we consolidate, andhow we have a big picture view
of all of the differentcomponent parts that need to be
resolved, but don't becomeoverwhelmed by the magnitude of
it, I think is really important.
And I'm not sure if that'sanswered your question, Sue,
because I think there are thereare these endless issues in
society and in sports.
So I can't, I don't, I'm not abig fan of kind of attributing a
(22:26):
hierarchy of suffering, partlybecause I think it's quite
personal, but also because Ithink these issues are all
interconnected and ultimately itis the unequal distribution of
power when you have people withpower who don't understand, it
doesn't even have to benefarious, right?
Some people in power just don'tunderstand the experiences of
those who aren't in power andthen build systems and
(22:46):
structures that are unwelcomingor unsafe.
And so until we start tacklingthat, all of these other
societal issues are a symptom ofthat.
Sue Anstiss (22:56):
And how do you begin?
I feel we're trying to might betrying to solve everything on a
one-hour podcast, but how doyou begin to solve some of
those?
That the I mean you've got thekind of major systemic working
with maybe major events at theOlympics and World Cups and
international federations.
So how can they be madeaccountable for human rights?
Is it about the actions theytake?
(23:17):
Is it about governmentsimposing?
Is it the involvement of thevoice of sponsors and fans?
What what what's your approachin that space?
Kat Craig (23:25):
I think big problems need big solutions and everybody
needs to be part of it.
So I think there's a role foreveryone to play in that
context.
And I think we are seeingprogress.
So I think we're seeing ashift.
Take safeguarding again as akind of paradigm topic or a
theme to look through.
So lots of people working onsafeguarding.
(23:48):
There were very there werebrilliant academics and
researchers and sports governingpeople working on this for
decades.
But we've seen a real change inthe last 10 years, right, with
the Sport2 movement, the Me Toomovement.
So I think it starts with anawareness.
And again, that's why workingwith athletes is so important
and working with people who'veexperienced abuse, you know,
(24:10):
whether it's officials or fans,is so critical.
And from awareness, there's akind of correlated step which is
different, which isrecognition.
I think that's sort of where weare at the moment in a lot of
change-making processes in sportwhen it comes to human rights.
So there's an acknowledgementand a recognition in sports
bodies that there is a problem.
(24:31):
Whether that's a deepunderstanding differs.
It's really not a homogenoussector, right?
There's so many, it's onlysports, big ones, small ones,
rich ones, poor ones, well-runones, poorly run ones.
And then it's the kind ofgetting past that little bit of
defensiveness that we've touchedon.
Those are the phases that we'rein, that kind of understanding,
(24:54):
listening, trying to find waysof working together and gelling
as a team.
And then it's when you canreally start building solutions.
And that that's an iterativeprocess.
I think we've got a slighttendency in sport as well, is to
see things as a one and done.
And it's not, right?
It's a it's just you have tobake it into the day-to-day work
that you do.
And that's actually inpractice.
(25:17):
There's a couple of sportsbodies I've worked with that
I've really loved working with,who really lent into it.
You can mainstream it in a waythat's really quite manageable.
I'm not saying there's no costassociated.
I'm not saying that you don'thave to create change in
culture, but it's definitelydoable.
So it's that kind of transitionfrom awareness to recognition.
(25:39):
We're seeing policies andprocesses coming in.
Where I think we're reallystill falling short is that
wholesale cultural change.
That's a big, a big challengethat I think many listeners will
also recognize and have comeacross in different guises
working as women in sports.
But there are there are sportsbodies trying to do the right
(26:02):
thing.
I'm also a big fan when you'relooking at change of kind of
segmenting your audience, right?
So you'll have early adopters,champions, allies, the people
who, and I saw that withathlete.
I've seen that every stage ofmy work.
Someone will hear about what wedo and go, this is amazing.
This is exactly what we need.
Gosh, we really need thisspecific expertise.
(26:22):
Then on the other end of thescale, there's people who want
to preserve the status quo atwhatever cost.
The worst versions of that aresports administrators in senior
positions who are themselvesabusive, right?
But there's a whole fragmentthere that wouldn't be abusive,
wouldn't be discriminatory, butcategorically refuse to create
(26:44):
the change necessary to fix it.
So that's the other extreme.
And then there's the big chunkin the middle, and that's the
really interesting chunk, right?
So the people who are kind ofundecided or who perhaps haven't
had the opportunity tounderstand that they are
inadvertently part of a systemthat excludes people, that is
unsafe for people.
I mean, I'm I'm not a big fanof dealing with the ones all the
(27:07):
way on one side of thespectrum.
I think that's a little wasteof time, right?
There's the kind of return oninvestment there is pretty slim.
But that middle chunk, I'vereally learnt over time to
engage differently with them.
I was quite judgmental.
You know, the passage of timehelps with these things and you
see more context.
And so I was really good atdealing with the people who were
all aligned with me, as many ofus are, right?
(27:30):
Those are my my people, andthat was really easy, and we
could work really well togetherand create incredible change.
But it's actually that middlechunk that's really, really
important, who are perhapsundecided, but willing to listen
if the message is conveyed inthe right way and willing to
reflect.
And we need to be a bit kind ofcompassionate and kind and
(27:51):
patient with how we then gothrough that process.
And understanding that has madeit much easier to work with
sports bodies who show a genuineintention.
I mean, that's my that's oneline I don't cross.
I don't work with people unlessI really test to see whether
they want to create changerather than it be something
performative, because my time isprecious to me.
(28:13):
And, you know, I don't want tobe a fig leaf.
I don't want to be part of asystem where they're just trying
to kind of go through themotions.
And I think some people arestill in that space, but there
are increasingly people who whoare approaching this in a really
thoughtful way, and that's thatgives me incredible hope.
Sue Anstiss (28:32):
And I don't I won didn't want you to name specific
organizations where you haveseen that change.
But I just wonder from thosethat have engaged and are
willing to listen and act, arethere specific traits or what
are the traits could youidentify?
Is it about the havingabsolutely the right people at
the very top?
Is it a historical, cultural,what's the what's is it about
having women around the table insenior roles?
(28:54):
What can you identify some ofthose elements?
Kat Craig (28:57):
That's so interesting.
Yeah, I think I can.
And they're different.
If I think of I won't nameindividual organizations,
although I'm sure some of themwouldn't mind, but the ones
where I've seen success, Idefinitely think lived
experience is key in differentforms.
So if you have people inorganizations who have
persevered in sport, despitethose negative paradigm
(29:19):
experiences, they bring a reallyimportant perspective.
Generally, diversity ofthought, identity is key.
Almost all of the organizationswhere I've seen real change,
there have been women with adegree of power.
I think one of the green flagsfor me is organizations that are
willing to be a little bit moretransparent.
(29:41):
That's a big piece, right?
Honest and show a bit ofhumility around where things
have gone wrong.
I think it's interesting insport because you have this.
And I'm going to butcher it,and I'm really sorry to all of
the listeners who know this.
Quote better than me, but it'ssomething like plant the seeds
(30:02):
of the tree under whose shadeyou'll never sit, something
along those lines.
Yeah.
And there's a short-termistnature of sport, sport
leadership, everything from kindof coaches and managers and
players, short kind of eliteperformance careers to kind of
short tenure in positions ofpower.
That means that there is ashort-termis nature in sports
(30:25):
bodies.
And at the same time, there's areal fragility in recognizing
things that predecessors havedone wrong.
So things can have gone wrongin your organization when you
were not in charge of it.
But you still have toacknowledge that people were
harmed by the institution andthat you're now part of the
(30:45):
institution, the associatedpayroll and status and all and
security.
And so I think organizationsand individuals within
organizations that show awillingness and ability to hold
those two things and to benuanced, right?
Yes, it wasn't me, but at thesame time, I realize that the
organization I represent hascaused harm or has or has done
things suboptimally.
(31:06):
Let's put it that way, right?
We can do better.
So recognizing that we can dobetter, being transparent about
progress that is being made.
And there are severalorganizations I've worked I work
with now who I had very longconversations with.
I mean years, where peoplesaid, Can you come in and do a
workshop?
And I'm like, well, let's havea let's rewind a little.
(31:28):
Tell me about some of thethings that you're seeing in the
organization that you don'tlike or that you want to
address.
And then just having to go backto them and go, Yeah,
workshop's not going to changethis.
If you can find someone andthey're like, we'll pay you.
And I was like, No, no, I know,but the workshop's not going to
fix it.
And then we'd go back andthere'd be another kind of
short-termist solution.
And I go, well, that's also notgoing to fix it.
(31:49):
Because I think these are theunderlying causes.
And then eventually they willcome back and go, actually,
we've tried all of those things.
They didn't work.
Can we now have this kind ofreflection process around how
the culture of the organizationfacilitates some of these
problematic aspects?
But I think, yeah, awillingness to learn, a bit of
humility while also being proudof the change that's happening.
(32:12):
I think that's reallyimportant.
We should really commendpeople.
It's quite difficult withinsome organizations to champion
change.
I think we have to show empathyand support for that.
And then a transparency in thesteps that they're taking are
pretty key.
I think if you don't have that,trying to think if there's an
organization that didn't do thatand still had made lasting
(32:34):
sustainable change.
And I can't think of any.
I don't know if you can.
Sue Anstiss (32:37):
Yeah, no, and I wouldn't want to.
But no, no, I can't actually.
You and I have talked kind ofaway from here in the past
around some of that worryingpushback we're seeing in society
post-the-me Too era.
And I wonder if your thoughtsof that, you know, how that
translates into sport,especially when you've already
(32:58):
mentioned the importance of morewomen in those senior roles and
that opportunity.
So both how how women can havemore impact, but also then how
that abuse is seen in sport too.
Kat Craig (33:10):
Yeah, I think we're at a really complicated time
societally.
And I think that inevitablyreflects in sport as well.
Again, I think there are risksand opportunities.
And I like to think about theopportunities more than the
risks, but no, it's undoubtedlytrue.
There's so much research, it'sso clear that that pushback,
(33:31):
that research that came outrecently, that young men, even
in the UK, a significantpercentage thought gender
equality had gone too far.
I don't even know what thatmeans, frankly.
Um, it's not like anyway, Idon't know what that means, and
it's terrifying.
And and it's really terrifyingto see it in in young men.
But I think we've becomeaccustomed to seeing kind of
(33:54):
people you pejoratively refer toas dinosaurs.
I don't love the term, but youknow what I mean.
People with outdated views,people for whom a lot of the
kind of language that's moreinclusive is really quite
uncomfortable or alien.
But I think when you see it inyounger generations, it's very
worrying.
And and the kind of trad wifeside side of it as well, right?
The the women who are beingco-opted or adopting that.
(34:18):
And I think gender equity isone of those key points.
Someone once told me that whenit comes to gender equity, you
need to have one eye forward andone eye back.
And I think we definitely needone eye back at the moment
because we are at risk of losingsome of the progress and
traction that we've had.
As always, I am the eternaloptimist.
You kind of have to be in myline of work, but I do think
(34:38):
that sport also offers theantidote.
In my spare time, I run acommunity-owned football club
called Camden and IslingtonUnited.
And really from the outset, webaked in gender equity.
So equal number, actually,majority of women on the board,
women and men coaches, equalnumber of teams.
And it's something that we wehave always spoken about really
(34:59):
explicitly with all of theplayers and the coaches, etc.
And about a year or so ago, oneof our teams, one of the Sunday
teams, so a casual team, wasplaying in a cup, and it
transpired that the oppositionthat they were due to face not
only had a really derogatorymisogynist name, but also had
(35:22):
been posting really upsettingcontent, derogatory misogynist,
verging on criminal content ofyoung women when they were out
and about, and had tagged ourInsta handle in it.
And the process that flowed waslong and quite arduous.
(35:43):
But the really pleasing part ofit was having spent so much
time with young men, it was theyoung men who alerted us to it.
They, of their own volition,said, we are unwilling to play
against a team that speaks aboutwomen this way.
There are women running ourclub, there are women coaching
our teams, we have, you know,equal number of male and female
players in the in the club.
(36:04):
They play together on kind ofvibe sessions, and they said,
This is not what we stand for.
This is not how our communityholds itself, and we refuse to
play against this team.
So they boycotted the match.
The league was awful,absolutely pointless.
League was awful.
We lodged a complaint with theamateur FA.
(36:26):
We boycotted the match, and wewere actually in two different
cups against the same team.
So it was really disappointingbecause it was kind of the big
culmination of building up thisteam and playing well.
And the boys and young men, andthey were all in their late
teens, early 20s, they werebrilliant.
Susie Rack wrote an amazingarticle about it.
I don't know how, but it kindof got top news globally on The
(36:48):
Guardian.
It was the number one footballstory globally on The Guardian
for about 24 or 48 hours, kindof above Messi and various other
transfer news.
So there's an appetite forthese stories.
The men were willing to speakout.
What was really interestingabout it, so they boycotted the
games.
Eventually the amateur FAintervened.
(37:10):
They disciplined the team andthen forced the games to be
replayed.
We won both of them, which wasobviously a joyous moment.
But what was really interestingis when the story came out, I
got contacted by lots and lotsof people saying, I can't
believe this still happens,which I thought was a little
naive, but good that at leastthe story brought it to their
attention.
How is this able to happen infootball?
(37:32):
This is awful.
Gosh, I'm so sorry.
What was really interesting wasthat after that there was a
second wave, which was when LadBible and various other accounts
got hold of it.
Because we made national news,we were on the television, etc.
Our players were beinginterviewed about it, and then
came the backlash.
(37:52):
This is what happens when youlet women run football.
I bet they were all justeffing, ugly women who were
complaining about it.
The game's gone.
All of this stuff.
When we had been dragged into asituation, and there were
photographs of intoxicated womenbeing upskirted, in
compromising positions, sayingthat they'd slept with these
(38:14):
women, they're kind of on apublic Instagram page, all of
these women being outed.
It was absolutely vile.
And that was the backlash.
And even a year later, sometroll on Instagram, the women
who'd commented on it, going,Thank you for standing in
solidarity with us.
This is why we play for Camdenand Islington United.
This is what football should belike, all of these things.
(38:36):
And he was making derogatorycomments.
So I think it's a perfectlittle story of where we as an
industry in a sector seeourselves, where these things
are allowed to happen.
If you work hard and buildclubs and environments where
everybody takes theirresponsibilities seriously, you
can build allyship, but theinstitutions and those in power
(38:59):
are a little out of touch,right?
So that first wave ofreactions, which is this is
appalling, how can this stillhappen in football?
And then the counter-reaction,which was very much on the side
of those who are beingdisrespectful, misogynists
towards women.
So it's a bit of a kind of aparable, I think, for where we
are.
(39:20):
And I think part of it, it's avery long way of saying, I think
it's really important that weengage with young men and boys
from a really early age, thatthey see women in leadership
roles, that they see their roleas allies, and that we bake this
(39:40):
into the way that football andother sports are managed.
I'm sure it happens everywhere.
Sue Anstiss (39:44):
And for those working in this space, and
especially those young women,what advice would you give to
them for kind of balancing whatis understandable indignation or
where the especially where theworld's going right now, against
almost being more practical andsolutions-based in their
actions?
Because sometimes you just feellike you want to th throw your
hands up and not walk away fromit all, but I it the the kind of
(40:08):
frustration of of where we are,where we see the world going
today.
Kat Craig (40:12):
I think it's a really good question.
And I don't ever throw my handsup and walk away, but I do
sometimes kind of want to kicksomething quite hard.
And look, that that righteousindignation, as you, as you
rightly called it, I think is areally important motivator.
I think it gives us an energyto really kind of keep going.
(40:36):
Personally, what I've realizedis particularly around issues of
violence against women andgirls and gender equity, you
know, the stats are clear.
Discrimination, harassment,abuse, those are all things that
we'll either have experiencedor we know people and love
people who've experienced them.
So I think we have to recognisethis is part of the work I do
around kind of trauma-informedcoaching and trauma-informed
(40:58):
responses from institutions, isreally recognize what that does
to us physically when we engagein that space.
And there's a lot of work thatI think we can do where we care
for ourselves and each other.
I think that's really, reallyimportant.
I know that when I engage inthese issues, I have a kind of a
triggered response, right?
(41:19):
Talked all the way at thebeginning about that allergic
reaction to injustice, and thatis what it is, right?
It's an involuntary, acutereaction that I feel in my body
when I see or or hear aboutthings happening.
Actually, being a coach hasreally helped me with this, and
just really understanding whatthat does to me, and that if I'm
(41:44):
in that triggered responsemode, part of my brain just
doesn't function in the way thatit usually does.
So I think in the moment,before we can build solutions,
we have to understand that, youknow, if I go into an
organization and we're talkingabout cultural change, how do we
make this organization morethoughtful, more inclusive, more
purpose-driven, frankly, morecommercially ready for the next
(42:07):
generation, which is verydifferent than what it looked
like 20 years ago, where we havefans and consumers who want
different things.
I'll go into theseorganizations and sometimes
someone will say something thatI find really unpalatable,
right?
I think for us to be able tobuild solutions, we have to
(42:27):
understand that allergicreaction that we have.
We have to manage our ownemotions.
So that's on a veryinterparation, like on a
personal level, on a veryindividual level.
Make sure that you've done thatwork, whether it's healing or
self-actualizing, so that youcan you enable yourself to shift
from a reactive kind of brainto a thinking brain.
(42:51):
And that's when you can alsostart empathizing with people
and understanding where they'recoming from.
And look, there are certainpeople that I have absolutely no
time to empathize with.
But when we talk about thosethree categories of our
audiences, the kind of earlyadopters, the strong detractors,
and that middle ground, if weare going to make change, we
have to be able to haveconstructive dialogue with each
(43:14):
other.
That is the only way that we'regoing to get forward.
Now, there's lots thatinstitutions have to do, there's
lots that individuals have todo, but for us as women, I think
we will be more impactful if wegive ourselves the best chance
at success to switch from thatallergic reaction to a
(43:35):
thoughtful, intentional,constructive reaction.
I for me, I had to do a lot ofpersonal work around that.
And that really only came, Iwant to say last 10 years,
possibly the last five years.
I'm just able to navigate thosesituations a little bit more
thoughtfully, really trying tounderstand where other people
are coming from.
Again, I think we haven'ttalked a lot other than kind of
(43:58):
the pushback to the Me Toomovement about what the
political environment is thatwe're operating in.
I keep coming back to thispiece where we're so polarized,
there has to be an antidote tothat.
And I think being compassionatewith ourselves and within
reason with others is part ofthat.
(44:19):
Without compromising our ethicsand our morals, but just not
being too judgmental, I think,is is critical while also being
judicious in how you spend yourtime and energy.
Sue Anstiss (44:30):
Also true.
Will you run for a primeminister or something at some
point, please, Kat?
And you talk positively.
I'm I'm a bit like you.
I'd like to look on the thepositive of, but but the last
decade and that we've seen somepositive shifts in different
areas around sport and humanrights.
So where do you see thingsevolving in in the next decade?
Are there areas that thatspecifically need more attention
(44:52):
that we're not paying attentionto right now?
Kat Craig (44:55):
Yeah, I think we're absolutely at an inflection
point.
The good news is I'm really,really confident that there is a
movement of people, many ofthem women, that can influence
that inflection point.
It it feels like a moment intime for me.
And the benefit of age meansthat I've seen these ups and
(45:15):
downs at various stages.
But I feel that there is thisopportunity, there is a
willingness among some leadersto be a little bit more
courageous.
I think that's a criticalpiece.
There's lots of evidence nowthat shows that you can, again,
look at it from the safeguardingperspective.
You can have great policies,you can have education, you can
(45:37):
put really great safeguardingofficers in place.
But unless there's buy-in fromleadership, it's really
difficult to change.
So I think it's reallyimportant that leaders step up
and are courageous andconsciously depart from that
short-termist view.
I think we are holding thefuture of sport in our hands at
the moment, and it can really goone of two ways.
(45:58):
I'm really optimistic about thenext generation, I have to say,
it gives me such joy and hope,particularly working with young
women, but there are someamazing young men out there as
well, who have all of thepassion and energy, and you and
I have spoken about this in thepast as well, kind of are better
at putting boundaries in placeand have higher expectations of
(46:21):
everyone around them.
And that's just so wonderful tosee.
And I think there's a lot to behopeful about when you look at,
as I said, younger consumers,younger fans.
There's a direction we're goingin.
That inflection point I thinkis also commercially relevant.
So we've seen changes, right?
If you look at the Yorkshirecricket racism scandal, their
(46:44):
major sponsor left because notjust because it happened, but
because they handled it sobadly.
There was such a lack oftransparency and process, et
cetera, in responding to that.
And I think there was a studypublished just this week from
Amnesty International andsomeone else, where they looked
at 10,000 people in 10 Europeancountries, 75% of whom said they
(47:06):
wanted companies held toaccount for human rights
violations, for environmentaldegradation.
That may not feel like it toleaders in sport, but that is
the direction of travel.
And I'm really not convincedthat that's going to go away,
even though we're in turbulentpolitical times.
I think there is a nextgeneration coming up and through
that will make those demands.
(47:27):
So we're at an inflectionpoint.
I'm not saying it's a dead certthat we're going in the right
direction, because I don't thinkthat's how progress works.
I think that'd be very naivelooking at some of the trends.
But I absolutely think thatthere is an opportunity to seize
on that for courageous leadersand that we as a movement of
women in sport have a criticalrole to play together to change
(47:52):
that.
And one of my favorite studiesfrom outside of sport that I
always reflect back on,particularly on gender equity,
there's a, I think it was a 2012study around combating violence
against women.
And it was a 30-year studyacross 70 different countries
around which factors wouldpredict strong and effective
(48:14):
policies on violence againstwomen.
And they looked at everything,all the things that I think
would matter, right?
What's the political leaning ofyour government, how many women
there are in legislatures, whatthe GDP of the country is.
And none of those things wereas important as one single
factor.
And it was autonomous feministmovements.
(48:36):
So when we as women, and Idon't really mind if you call
yourself a feminist or not, Ithink if we as women understand
that women face particular risksand have a seat at the table,
and that if we have that seat atthe table and we support and
uplift each other, positivechange will happen.
That is the key factor forsocial change and gender equity
(48:58):
across countries and acrosstime.
So there's an inflection point,if we stick together, I am
eternally optimistic that we caninfluence that tipping point
and build a collective future ofsport that is inclusive not
just of women, but other groupsthat have been excluded and
(49:21):
disenfranchised and harmed.
I think that is absolutelypossible.
I don't think it's inevitable,but I think it's possible.
Sue Anstiss (49:34):
I'm really thinking I might have to do a part two
episode with Kat Craig.
What an extraordinary woman sheis.
If you'd like to hear fromother trailblazers like Kat,
there are over 200 episodes ofthe Game Changers that are free
to listen to on all podcastplatforms or from our website at
fearlesswomen.co.uk.
Guests include elite athletes,entrepreneurs, broadcasters,
(49:58):
coaches, scientists, journalistsand CEOs, all women who are
changing the game in sport.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
can also find out more about theWomen's Sport Collective, a
free, inclusive community forall women working in sport.
We now have over 14,000 membersacross the world, so please do
(50:19):
come and join us.
The whole of my book, Game On,The Unstoppable Rise of Women's
Sport, is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Every episode of series 13 isme reading a chapter of the
book.
Huge thanks to Sport England,who support the Game Changers
and the Women's Sport Collectivewith a National Lottery Award.
(50:40):
Thank you also to Sam Walker atWhat Goes On Media, who does
such an excellent job as ourexecutive producer, and thank
you to my brilliant colleague atFearless Women, Kate Hannon.
The Game Changers is availableon all podcast platforms, so
please do follow us now and youwon't miss out on future
episodes.
(51:00):
Do come and say hello on socialmedia, but you'll find me on
LinkedIn and Instagram at SueAnstis.
The Game Changers.
Fearless Women in Sport.
I think we're at a really complicated time
societally.
That pushback, that researchthat came out recently, that
young men even in the UK, asignificant percentage thought
gender equality had gone toofar.
I don't even know what thatmeans, and it's terrifying.
Sue Anstiss (00:25):
My guest today on the Game Changers is Kat Craig,
a pioneering human rights lawyerand CEO of Athlete, a
consultancy helping to drivesystemic, transformative change
across sport.
Passionate about sport as aplatform for change, Kat works
with athletes and organisationsacross the globe, helping them
to use their voices to challengeinjustice and inspire progress.
(00:48):
A much respected thought leaderfor safeguarding in sport, Kat
co-authored the UN WomenHandbook Tackling Violence
Against Women and Girls inSport, and has been recognised
by her peers for hertransformative work, receiving
the Sport, Industry, Integrityand Impact Award and the Celia
Brackenbridge Award for Servicesto Safe Sport.
(01:08):
So, Kat, what first drew youinto human rights law and how
does sport become a part of thatjourney?
Kat Craig (01:17):
Hi, Sue, and thank you so much for having me today.
I'm delighted.
I'm an avid listener, and it'sa real privilege to be here with
you today.
And we always have suchwonderful conversations.
It's nice to do it in thiscontext.
I think I was blessed fromquite a young age with a really
diverse friendship group.
I grew up in Rotterdam in theNetherlands, actually, which is
(01:38):
a really multicultural city.
And from a young age, thatmeant I was exposed to quite a
lot of the social inequitiesthat that diverse community
faced.
I remember at school, one of myteachers said I seemed to have
an allergic reaction toinjustice.
I don't think it was acompliment at the time.
And now I'm a little bit olderwith the benefit of hindsight.
(02:00):
It was a crowded state school,so I do feel for them.
But I think that was alwayssort of in me, and I'm really
pleased about that.
And I then contemplated lots ofdifferent careers, came to
sport in quite a roundabout way.
I've been working in sport for10 years, but I did a degree in
social anthropology anddevelopment studies, which is
kind of internationalrelationsy.
(02:20):
And I think that gave me a lotof time to reflect on the
historical and global context,how the world works, how we
organize ourselves and society.
And that's always beensomething I'm really interested
in.
I remember taking a course ingender and culture and looking
at how other societies organizein a matriarchal or a
(02:41):
matrilineal way and how thatimpacted how power was
distributed.
So I think I've always had areal interest in social
injustice as a whole.
And then eventually I did apostgrad in law and became a
human rights lawyer in privatepractice.
And I think, in terms of sport,I played sport from a young
(03:03):
age, poorly, on all accounts.
Lots of different sports, teamsports, individual sports.
Was never brilliant at it, butalways loved it.
Overall had a pretty positiveexperience in sport.
And about 10 years ago, at thetime I was working for an
international human rightscharity as the legal director,
(03:23):
and it just felt that the worldwas increasingly divided.
It was just pre-Trump roundone, pre-Brexit.
And when you want to createpositive social change, you have
to always look at the context.
What's the world around youdoing and saying?
What's the direction of travel?
And it felt at the time prettyclear to me that kind of
(03:46):
adversarial litigation was notgoing to bring this increasingly
fragmented community together.
And so I looked to the placewhere I'd always found community
in commonalities and sharedexperiences, and that was sport.
So I came into the sport sectorreally quite optimistic, hoping
to be able to tell positivestories or challenge injustices
(04:08):
in a really constructive way.
And probably quite naively,actually.
I really didn't understand thesector at the time terribly
well.
But I was fortunate to findsome fellow travellers early on.
And, you know, here we are 10years later, I think very
pleased with having made thatdecision.
Sue Anstiss (04:24):
I was going to say, has it enabled you to do those
things you felt it would do as aplace where you had found
community?
Yes and no.
Kat Craig (04:32):
I think the way that we as people in sport perceive
the sector is very much based onour own paradigm experiences.
It's one of the key challenges,actually, I think, in making
change.
So as a sector, for better orworse, it's quite insular,
right?
We um recruit from within ourown ranks, former athletes, then
(04:54):
start working in sportsgovernance.
I love that.
I think that's a great thing.
But the reality is that thosewho persevere or stay in sport
tend to be the ones who've hadpositive experiences, who devote
leadership and community andand were able to thrive.
And that by its very natureexcludes others who fall by the
(05:16):
wayside side, who had negativeexperiences, who were
discriminated against, whoexperienced abuse.
And so coming into sport andunderstanding across those
different stakeholders a littlebit better how people come to be
in sport, the love that theyhave, the pride they have in
their sport, and sometimes theblind spots that that creates
(05:39):
has meant that yes, I do think Ifound a space where I've had
the opportunity to work withunbelievable people in a way
that I'd never imagined andcreate a change that I'm really
proud to have been a small partof.
But I think there's quite along way to go.
(05:59):
And I think it is a challengingsector to work in, certainly as
a woman.
And as I say, I think I was alittle naive coming into the
sector as a kind of respectedhuman rights lawyer who'd had
all these accolades, and reallyabsolutely nobody cared because
it's a very relational sector,right?
Unless three different peoplewill vouch for you, nobody will
give you the time of day.
(06:20):
And lawyers are quiteunderstandably distrusted.
But you know, I always feelthat being a human rights lawyer
is a bit different.
It's not a big paycheck kind ofjob.
And so, yeah, there was a bitof learning on my side for sure,
in terms of how I positioned itand yeah, finding good people,
finding your tribe, finding youryour group who of fellow
(06:42):
travellers, ultimately I'm verypleased with the decision.
I wouldn't wouldn't change itfor the world.
Sue Anstiss (06:47):
That's good to hear.
And you I have heard you say inthe past of sport being such a
driver of social change, asyou've alluded to there, but
also a reflection of deepinequality.
So what do you mean by that?
Kat Craig (07:00):
Sport is a mirror of society.
If you look at it from justthrough the gender lens, I work
on a range of different humanrights issues, but let's look at
it through the lens of gender.
We've had this incredible fewweeks of women's sport where we
can challenge stereotypes.
We've seen research coming uprecently, again reiterating that
girls who play sport have agreater chance of taking up
(07:25):
leadership roles.
But because it's a microcosm ofsociety, it also mirrors all
the social issues likeinequality and discrimination.
And similar, but not the same,the struggle for equality and
inclusion and all of thebacklash and the tensions that
come from that.
So I think it it can be a hugeforce for change.
(07:45):
I think we still have some wayto go in understanding that
sports governance structures arevery centralized.
It's a centralized power base.
And in every single area ofhuman rights I've ever worked
for 30 years, when you havecentralized power bases with a
(08:07):
lack of diversity in leadershipand a lack of voice and counter
movements, there's always goingto be an exploitation of
vulnerable members in thecommunity, right?
So I think there are intrinsicrisk factors connected to how
sport operates that we're stillcoming to terms with.
And again, you look at thoseparadigm experiences, there's a
(08:29):
bit of unconscious resistancesometimes for those in sport
because, and I share that,right?
There are sports that I loveand that I'm really proud of,
and you have those blind spotsbecause you don't want your
memories of watching games orplaying sports to be tarnished
by these quite dark sides ofsport.
(08:50):
So there's a little bit ofcognitive dissonance that I
think we're still workingthrough as a sector.
But there are many, many peoplewho are challenging that and
changing that.
Sue Anstiss (09:00):
I love that.
You're only I love always lovetalking to you because it opens
my mind to things.
But uh, yeah, there's so muchtrue isn't that whole slightly
slightly defensive of the thingsthat we love and not wishing
someone else to to shine a lightperhaps on that.
And I do want to talk to youmore around uh the governance
piece and organizations, but butfirst of all, I'd like to take
a little bit to chat aboutAthlete and and the kind of
(09:21):
story behind your founding thatas an organization.
So back in 2016, I think itwas.
What what gap did you see inthe landscape that no one else
was filling that that requiredthat?
Kat Craig (09:32):
Yeah, I I was always really interested in this
intersection between sport andsociety.
Frankly, I'd been working atthe front line of human rights
in conflict zones, some of themost horrible things that people
can do to each other.
And I was pretty close toburnout.
And uh, having had a broadlypositive experience in sport and
(09:56):
seen how it can really buildcommunities, I was keen to
create a space where we couldreally lead with that.
And in the US, there was thismovement forming around athletes
speaking out on key socialissues.
(10:17):
Colin Kaepernick, rememberSerena Williams read that
beautiful poem, um, Still IRise, the Maya Angelou one.
And I went over to the US, Idid a postgrad in sports
philanthropy at GeorgeWashington, and saw that there
were these, you know, everyrookie MBA player would set up a
(10:37):
foundation, for better or forworse, frankly.
And social change making is anart.
There's a talent to it, thereare pitfalls and opportunities.
And I saw a real gap to try andhelp athletes be really
thoughtful about what theirpower, privilege, opportunities
(11:01):
were, well beyond theircheckbook, and to speak
authentically about issues thatthey cared about.
And so that's how we started.
That's not how we finished.
We did some amazing work andand still work with individual
athletes on a range of issues,but as is often the case, kind
of life got in the way a littlebit, and within weeks, I think,
(11:26):
of formally setting up athlete,I got a phone call, funnily
enough, from an actor calledDavid Morrissey.
He used to be in variousthings.
Uh, and I'd worked with him inthe previous charity I worked
with, and he said, Have you seenthis stuff in the news of all
of the men speaking out aboutabuse in football?
And it was the group of menthat ultimately founded the
(11:47):
Offside Trust and various otherorganizations, and he said, They
really need some advice on howto tackle this.
It's a tricky issue, they'restruggling.
Can you help?
So, um, one of the early piecesof work that that we did,
alongside perhaps some of theeasier social issues around kind
of, you know, children's rightsor how you grow potential in
(12:11):
young people, was working withthe offside trust, who are the
very, very courageous men whofinally broke the silence after
decades of abuse.
So that's where it where itstarted.
And I'm I'm very grateful forthat opportunity.
I learned an awful lot.
And over time that justtransformed into gaining better
(12:31):
insights into the working sport.
Like I say, I came into itnaive.
I think it's really importantwhen we do social change work
that we're agile and that we'reconstantly reflecting on
opportunities where thechange-making opportunities lie.
And so now Athlete haseffectively three pillars of its
work.
One is around athlete voice,and we've worked with amazing
athletes, Johnny Wilkinson,Giovanni van Bronckhorst,
(12:54):
Vanessa Wallace, who's anamazing Paralympian, who really
early on in my career was verykind in bringing me along to
things.
Molly McCann, the UFC fighternow boxer.
Um, but that's part of ourwork.
We have a team that worksspecifically around sport for
good, so sport for developmentand how we strategically use
(13:16):
resources to challenge socialissues.
And then the third pillar isreally around helping sports
bodies to think about theirhuman rights obligations, think
about environmental, social,good governance issues, and how
they can bake that into thestructure of sport to try and
build a new generation ofgovernance and sports bodies
(13:39):
that don't do this as a sideproject, where you just kind of
have a charitable foundation,but really do a body scan of the
whole organization.
How do we think and feel aboutourselves?
How do we want others to speakabout that?
Who are all of the differentstakeholders in our environment?
How do we bring them along inthat conversation?
So it's been it's been quitethe journey, so it does it's
(14:01):
really interesting, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss (14:02):
Because I still often think of you as that early
iteration.
And I imagine the working, andyeah, I of course I also know
the work that you're doing withthe organizations, but I feel
the the organizational work, themore the infrastructure, feels
like it'll have far more impactpotentially long term than
working with individual athletesas a business.
Is that how do you measure thekind of impact of that different
(14:24):
work you're having in thosedifferent pillars?
Kat Craig (14:27):
Yeah, I hear you on that.
I've always struggled a littlebit with this micro-macro.
Because if you look at howsocial change has happened
historically across differentcountries, cultures, issues,
timelines, the voices of thosewho were impacted are really the
(14:47):
lightning rod for change.
And it's very difficult assomeone who has experienced a
human rights abuse to then alsoadvocate for it.
So allyship, I think, is reallyimportant, and working with
athlete allies is a reallyinteresting part of our work.
But I think it has to startthere, and I think you have to a
little bit be at the coalfaceto have a really deep
(15:10):
understanding of what the issuesare.
It has to start with theexperience of people and
understanding where things havegone wrong.
It's a diagnostic approach.
And without doing that part ofthe work, it's very difficult to
understand how to createsystems change.
(15:31):
So it's a bit of a kind ofcontraction and expansion
exercise.
You have to zoom in and zoomout, and that can be quite
challenging.
And I think in sport, which isquite a hierarchical structure,
you know, there's a lot ofgoverning bodies who just
because of the nature of thework aren't always haven't got
their ear to the ground.
(15:52):
I think the two seem at quiteopposite ends, but in practice
they're really interconnected ina way that we can't we can't
unpick and we don't want tounpick.
So the two feed into each otheractually in a quite a nice
complementary way.
Sue Anstiss (16:08):
Do you think that activism of athletes is is a bit
of an expectation, especiallywhen they have that high profile
now, or does it still takegreat courage for them to stand
up and you know speak outpublicly?
Kat Craig (16:21):
Well, I think that was one of our big learnings is
that perhaps firstly, not alltrends in sport that start in
America translate to the rest ofthe world.
And we work globally, so we'veseen it's really a
country-by-country basis.
The way that people respond toathlete activism or athlete
(16:43):
advocacy or athlete philanthropyis different.
I think in the UK it is reallychallenging.
I think it does require a lotof courage and a lot of thought.
The best example I have of thisis Marcus Rashford.
And I didn't have anything todo with the work that he did,
but I can't fault it.
(17:04):
I think it was a flawlesscampaign.
He had an authentic connectionto the issue.
He spoke about it in verymanageable, palatable ways.
Also, it was child poverty.
I mean, you know, how you cantake issue with someone trying
to feed children who are goinghungry.
(17:24):
And he was really thoughtfulabout his advocacy.
It's also wrong to expectMarcus Rashford to solve child
hunger, right?
So it was right that he wasengaging with public bodies and
institutions.
And he got slated for it onvarious occasions.
Now, that's partly the Britishpress and the racism in the
British press and our love of,you know, really building people
(17:46):
up and tearing them down.
But I think that's a real casein point around doing everything
right as an athlete and stillfacing really serious blowback.
So I think it is complicated.
It doesn't mean that athletesshouldn't do it, it doesn't mean
that athletes don't want to doit, it doesn't mean that
athletes can't do it, but it isa matter of really considering
(18:11):
carefully those key factors,right?
Is there an authenticconnection?
What is the scope of anathlete's change-making power?
One of the things that we seeall the time is there not being
enough scope.
I always say to athletes,strategy is about what you say
no to, not what you say yes to.
(18:32):
And then thinking about therisks and the storytelling
around it.
So no, I think it requiresgreat courage.
I strongly resist thisnarrative that athletes have a
an obligation to give back.
I'm really not convinced aboutthat at all.
But I think for those who dowant to advocate and stand in
solidarity or offer theirallyship, there are lots of
(18:53):
small acts that we see fromdifferent athletes that make a
massive difference.
So there's still a space forit.
But we live in an increasinglypolarized society where we've
slightly lost the ability tohold multiple truths and to have
constructive disagreement.
And I think it would be wrongto suggest that athletes, you
know, can't fall victim to that.
(19:13):
So it's a it's a tricky space,but an important one.
Sue Anstiss (19:17):
And looking more broadly across sport, what are
some of the biggest human rightschallenges that the the sector
and sport generally is facingtoday, would you say?
Kat Craig (19:26):
I mean, gosh, all of them, right?
I mean, all of the kind ofthematic issues.
Again, sport's a mirror ofsociety.
I think gender is a big piece,um, because I think it's a big
part of the solution.
I think if you can creategender equity, then things will
significantly improve in societyand in sport.
There's endless research thatshows if you have women making
(19:48):
sensible decisions, or if youhave women, they'll make
sensible decisions.
Women and men together workingcollaboratively, you'll have
sensible decisions.
But again, I think there's alot of value to be added in
terms of thinking about all ofthe unintended consequences of
sport that go beyond those blindspots that we have, right?
Everything from trafficking ofworkers and athletes as workers,
(20:13):
gender, race, mental healthissues, all of those things,
freedom of expression, I thinkare still all issues that we're
trying to tackle sensitively andappropriately in sport.
I would come back again to kindof powers and systems.
It's it's valuable to tacklethose individual issues, but we
(20:35):
don't operate in a microcosm.
Um, we're connected to society.
I saw Comic Relief launched abrilliant fund recently around
violence against women andgirls.
Mary Arps was the face of thecampaign, and there's been real
pushback uh for her as well,which I was really surprised
(20:57):
about.
But, you know, that's the worldthat we live in now.
So I think connecting all ofthose things is really
important.
Trying to understand the powerbase in the systems and how
sport operates is reallyimportant.
And I think that can feel veryoverwhelming, which is giving
you a very vague big pictureanswer.
Uh, and that's partly becauseit's a big picture problem.
(21:19):
But I think where thechallenges sit in
operationalizing that is havinga good grasp of all of those
issues and how they're allinterconnected, right?
Both with each other and withinand outside of sport, and then
kind of breaking it down inmanageable steps.
I think that's something thatI've learned over time that's
(21:40):
really helpful is you have tohave this big picture view, but
just like individual athletetraining goals, or over the
course of a season, you know, Icoach a team and sometimes we
break it down into six-gamechunks, or sometimes you're in
the middle of the game andyou've conceded and you just
need to stabilize for five orten minutes.
So finding a cadence within allof these big issues of when we
(22:03):
push, when we consolidate, andhow we have a big picture view
of all of the differentcomponent parts that need to be
resolved, but don't becomeoverwhelmed by the magnitude of
it, I think is really important.
And I'm not sure if that'sanswered your question, Sue,
because I think there are thereare these endless issues in
society and in sports.
So I can't, I don't, I'm not abig fan of kind of attributing a
(22:26):
hierarchy of suffering, partlybecause I think it's quite
personal, but also because Ithink these issues are all
interconnected and ultimately itis the unequal distribution of
power when you have people withpower who don't understand, it
doesn't even have to benefarious, right?
Some people in power just don'tunderstand the experiences of
those who aren't in power andthen build systems and
(22:46):
structures that are unwelcomingor unsafe.
And so until we start tacklingthat, all of these other
societal issues are a symptom ofthat.
Sue Anstiss (22:56):
And how do you begin?
I feel we're trying to might betrying to solve everything on a
one-hour podcast, but how doyou begin to solve some of
those?
That the I mean you've got thekind of major systemic working
with maybe major events at theOlympics and World Cups and
international federations.
So how can they be madeaccountable for human rights?
Is it about the actions theytake?
(23:17):
Is it about governmentsimposing?
Is it the involvement of thevoice of sponsors and fans?
What what what's your approachin that space?
Kat Craig (23:25):
I think big problems need big solutions and everybody
needs to be part of it.
So I think there's a role foreveryone to play in that
context.
And I think we are seeingprogress.
So I think we're seeing ashift.
Take safeguarding again as akind of paradigm topic or a
theme to look through.
So lots of people working onsafeguarding.
(23:48):
There were very there werebrilliant academics and
researchers and sports governingpeople working on this for
decades.
But we've seen a real change inthe last 10 years, right, with
the Sport2 movement, the Me Toomovement.
So I think it starts with anawareness.
And again, that's why workingwith athletes is so important
and working with people who'veexperienced abuse, you know,
(24:10):
whether it's officials or fans,is so critical.
And from awareness, there's akind of correlated step which is
different, which isrecognition.
I think that's sort of where weare at the moment in a lot of
change-making processes in sportwhen it comes to human rights.
So there's an acknowledgementand a recognition in sports
bodies that there is a problem.
(24:31):
Whether that's a deepunderstanding differs.
It's really not a homogenoussector, right?
There's so many, it's onlysports, big ones, small ones,
rich ones, poor ones, well-runones, poorly run ones.
And then it's the kind ofgetting past that little bit of
defensiveness that we've touchedon.
Those are the phases that we'rein, that kind of understanding,
(24:54):
listening, trying to find waysof working together and gelling
as a team.
And then it's when you canreally start building solutions.
And that that's an iterativeprocess.
I think we've got a slighttendency in sport as well, is to
see things as a one and done.
And it's not, right?
It's a it's just you have tobake it into the day-to-day work
that you do.
And that's actually inpractice.
(25:17):
There's a couple of sportsbodies I've worked with that
I've really loved working with,who really lent into it.
You can mainstream it in a waythat's really quite manageable.
I'm not saying there's no costassociated.
I'm not saying that you don'thave to create change in
culture, but it's definitelydoable.
So it's that kind of transitionfrom awareness to recognition.
(25:39):
We're seeing policies andprocesses coming in.
Where I think we're reallystill falling short is that
wholesale cultural change.
That's a big, a big challengethat I think many listeners will
also recognize and have comeacross in different guises
working as women in sports.
But there are there are sportsbodies trying to do the right
(26:02):
thing.
I'm also a big fan when you'relooking at change of kind of
segmenting your audience, right?
So you'll have early adopters,champions, allies, the people
who, and I saw that withathlete.
I've seen that every stage ofmy work.
Someone will hear about what wedo and go, this is amazing.
This is exactly what we need.
Gosh, we really need thisspecific expertise.
(26:22):
Then on the other end of thescale, there's people who want
to preserve the status quo atwhatever cost.
The worst versions of that aresports administrators in senior
positions who are themselvesabusive, right?
But there's a whole fragmentthere that wouldn't be abusive,
wouldn't be discriminatory, butcategorically refuse to create
(26:44):
the change necessary to fix it.
So that's the other extreme.
And then there's the big chunkin the middle, and that's the
really interesting chunk, right?
So the people who are kind ofundecided or who perhaps haven't
had the opportunity tounderstand that they are
inadvertently part of a systemthat excludes people, that is
unsafe for people.
I mean, I'm I'm not a big fanof dealing with the ones all the
(27:07):
way on one side of thespectrum.
I think that's a little wasteof time, right?
There's the kind of return oninvestment there is pretty slim.
But that middle chunk, I'vereally learnt over time to
engage differently with them.
I was quite judgmental.
You know, the passage of timehelps with these things and you
see more context.
And so I was really good atdealing with the people who were
all aligned with me, as many ofus are, right?
(27:30):
Those are my my people, andthat was really easy, and we
could work really well togetherand create incredible change.
But it's actually that middlechunk that's really, really
important, who are perhapsundecided, but willing to listen
if the message is conveyed inthe right way and willing to
reflect.
And we need to be a bit kind ofcompassionate and kind and
(27:51):
patient with how we then gothrough that process.
And understanding that has madeit much easier to work with
sports bodies who show a genuineintention.
I mean, that's my that's oneline I don't cross.
I don't work with people unlessI really test to see whether
they want to create changerather than it be something
performative, because my time isprecious to me.
(28:13):
And, you know, I don't want tobe a fig leaf.
I don't want to be part of asystem where they're just trying
to kind of go through themotions.
And I think some people arestill in that space, but there
are increasingly people who whoare approaching this in a really
thoughtful way, and that's thatgives me incredible hope.
Sue Anstiss (28:32):
And I don't I won didn't want you to name specific
organizations where you haveseen that change.
But I just wonder from thosethat have engaged and are
willing to listen and act, arethere specific traits or what
are the traits could youidentify?
Is it about the havingabsolutely the right people at
the very top?
Is it a historical, cultural,what's the what's is it about
having women around the table insenior roles?
(28:54):
What can you identify some ofthose elements?
Kat Craig (28:57):
That's so interesting.
Yeah, I think I can.
And they're different.
If I think of I won't nameindividual organizations,
although I'm sure some of themwouldn't mind, but the ones
where I've seen success, Idefinitely think lived
experience is key in differentforms.
So if you have people inorganizations who have
persevered in sport, despitethose negative paradigm
(29:19):
experiences, they bring a reallyimportant perspective.
Generally, diversity ofthought, identity is key.
Almost all of the organizationswhere I've seen real change,
there have been women with adegree of power.
I think one of the green flagsfor me is organizations that are
willing to be a little bit moretransparent.
(29:41):
That's a big piece, right?
Honest and show a bit ofhumility around where things
have gone wrong.
I think it's interesting insport because you have this.
And I'm going to butcher it,and I'm really sorry to all of
the listeners who know this.
Quote better than me, but it'ssomething like plant the seeds
(30:02):
of the tree under whose shadeyou'll never sit, something
along those lines.
Yeah.
And there's a short-termistnature of sport, sport
leadership, everything from kindof coaches and managers and
players, short kind of eliteperformance careers to kind of
short tenure in positions ofpower.
That means that there is ashort-termis nature in sports
(30:25):
bodies.
And at the same time, there's areal fragility in recognizing
things that predecessors havedone wrong.
So things can have gone wrongin your organization when you
were not in charge of it.
But you still have toacknowledge that people were
harmed by the institution andthat you're now part of the
(30:45):
institution, the associatedpayroll and status and all and
security.
And so I think organizationsand individuals within
organizations that show awillingness and ability to hold
those two things and to benuanced, right?
Yes, it wasn't me, but at thesame time, I realize that the
organization I represent hascaused harm or has or has done
things suboptimally.
(31:06):
Let's put it that way, right?
We can do better.
So recognizing that we can dobetter, being transparent about
progress that is being made.
And there are severalorganizations I've worked I work
with now who I had very longconversations with.
I mean years, where peoplesaid, Can you come in and do a
workshop?
And I'm like, well, let's havea let's rewind a little.
(31:28):
Tell me about some of thethings that you're seeing in the
organization that you don'tlike or that you want to
address.
And then just having to go backto them and go, Yeah,
workshop's not going to changethis.
If you can find someone andthey're like, we'll pay you.
And I was like, No, no, I know,but the workshop's not going to
fix it.
And then we'd go back andthere'd be another kind of
short-termist solution.
And I go, well, that's also notgoing to fix it.
(31:49):
Because I think these are theunderlying causes.
And then eventually they willcome back and go, actually,
we've tried all of those things.
They didn't work.
Can we now have this kind ofreflection process around how
the culture of the organizationfacilitates some of these
problematic aspects?
But I think, yeah, awillingness to learn, a bit of
humility while also being proudof the change that's happening.
(32:12):
I think that's reallyimportant.
We should really commendpeople.
It's quite difficult withinsome organizations to champion
change.
I think we have to show empathyand support for that.
And then a transparency in thesteps that they're taking are
pretty key.
I think if you don't have that,trying to think if there's an
organization that didn't do thatand still had made lasting
(32:34):
sustainable change.
And I can't think of any.
I don't know if you can.
Sue Anstiss (32:37):
Yeah, no, and I wouldn't want to.
But no, no, I can't actually.
You and I have talked kind ofaway from here in the past
around some of that worryingpushback we're seeing in society
post-the-me Too era.
And I wonder if your thoughtsof that, you know, how that
translates into sport,especially when you've already
(32:58):
mentioned the importance of morewomen in those senior roles and
that opportunity.
So both how how women can havemore impact, but also then how
that abuse is seen in sport too.
Kat Craig (33:10):
Yeah, I think we're at a really complicated time
societally.
And I think that inevitablyreflects in sport as well.
Again, I think there are risksand opportunities.
And I like to think about theopportunities more than the
risks, but no, it's undoubtedlytrue.
There's so much research, it'sso clear that that pushback,
(33:31):
that research that came outrecently, that young men, even
in the UK, a significantpercentage thought gender
equality had gone too far.
I don't even know what thatmeans, frankly.
Um, it's not like anyway, Idon't know what that means, and
it's terrifying.
And and it's really terrifyingto see it in in young men.
But I think we've becomeaccustomed to seeing kind of
(33:54):
people you pejoratively refer toas dinosaurs.
I don't love the term, but youknow what I mean.
People with outdated views,people for whom a lot of the
kind of language that's moreinclusive is really quite
uncomfortable or alien.
But I think when you see it inyounger generations, it's very
worrying.
And and the kind of trad wifeside side of it as well, right?
The the women who are beingco-opted or adopting that.
(34:18):
And I think gender equity isone of those key points.
Someone once told me that whenit comes to gender equity, you
need to have one eye forward andone eye back.
And I think we definitely needone eye back at the moment
because we are at risk of losingsome of the progress and
traction that we've had.
As always, I am the eternaloptimist.
You kind of have to be in myline of work, but I do think
(34:38):
that sport also offers theantidote.
In my spare time, I run acommunity-owned football club
called Camden and IslingtonUnited.
And really from the outset, webaked in gender equity.
So equal number, actually,majority of women on the board,
women and men coaches, equalnumber of teams.
And it's something that we wehave always spoken about really
(34:59):
explicitly with all of theplayers and the coaches, etc.
And about a year or so ago, oneof our teams, one of the Sunday
teams, so a casual team, wasplaying in a cup, and it
transpired that the oppositionthat they were due to face not
only had a really derogatorymisogynist name, but also had
(35:22):
been posting really upsettingcontent, derogatory misogynist,
verging on criminal content ofyoung women when they were out
and about, and had tagged ourInsta handle in it.
And the process that flowed waslong and quite arduous.
(35:43):
But the really pleasing part ofit was having spent so much
time with young men, it was theyoung men who alerted us to it.
They, of their own volition,said, we are unwilling to play
against a team that speaks aboutwomen this way.
There are women running ourclub, there are women coaching
our teams, we have, you know,equal number of male and female
players in the in the club.
(36:04):
They play together on kind ofvibe sessions, and they said,
This is not what we stand for.
This is not how our communityholds itself, and we refuse to
play against this team.
So they boycotted the match.
The league was awful,absolutely pointless.
League was awful.
We lodged a complaint with theamateur FA.
(36:26):
We boycotted the match, and wewere actually in two different
cups against the same team.
So it was really disappointingbecause it was kind of the big
culmination of building up thisteam and playing well.
And the boys and young men, andthey were all in their late
teens, early 20s, they werebrilliant.
Susie Rack wrote an amazingarticle about it.
I don't know how, but it kindof got top news globally on The
(36:48):
Guardian.
It was the number one footballstory globally on The Guardian
for about 24 or 48 hours, kindof above Messi and various other
transfer news.
So there's an appetite forthese stories.
The men were willing to speakout.
What was really interestingabout it, so they boycotted the
games.
Eventually the amateur FAintervened.
(37:10):
They disciplined the team andthen forced the games to be
replayed.
We won both of them, which wasobviously a joyous moment.
But what was really interestingis when the story came out, I
got contacted by lots and lotsof people saying, I can't
believe this still happens,which I thought was a little
naive, but good that at leastthe story brought it to their
attention.
How is this able to happen infootball?
(37:32):
This is awful.
Gosh, I'm so sorry.
What was really interesting wasthat after that there was a
second wave, which was when LadBible and various other accounts
got hold of it.
Because we made national news,we were on the television, etc.
Our players were beinginterviewed about it, and then
came the backlash.
(37:52):
This is what happens when youlet women run football.
I bet they were all justeffing, ugly women who were
complaining about it.
The game's gone.
All of this stuff.
When we had been dragged into asituation, and there were
photographs of intoxicated womenbeing upskirted, in
compromising positions, sayingthat they'd slept with these
(38:14):
women, they're kind of on apublic Instagram page, all of
these women being outed.
It was absolutely vile.
And that was the backlash.
And even a year later, sometroll on Instagram, the women
who'd commented on it, going,Thank you for standing in
solidarity with us.
This is why we play for Camdenand Islington United.
This is what football should belike, all of these things.
(38:36):
And he was making derogatorycomments.
So I think it's a perfectlittle story of where we as an
industry in a sector seeourselves, where these things
are allowed to happen.
If you work hard and buildclubs and environments where
everybody takes theirresponsibilities seriously, you
can build allyship, but theinstitutions and those in power
(38:59):
are a little out of touch,right?
So that first wave ofreactions, which is this is
appalling, how can this stillhappen in football?
And then the counter-reaction,which was very much on the side
of those who are beingdisrespectful, misogynists
towards women.
So it's a bit of a kind of aparable, I think, for where we
are.
(39:20):
And I think part of it, it's avery long way of saying, I think
it's really important that weengage with young men and boys
from a really early age, thatthey see women in leadership
roles, that they see their roleas allies, and that we bake this
(39:40):
into the way that football andother sports are managed.
I'm sure it happens everywhere.
Sue Anstiss (39:44):
And for those working in this space, and
especially those young women,what advice would you give to
them for kind of balancing whatis understandable indignation or
where the especially where theworld's going right now, against
almost being more practical andsolutions-based in their
actions?
Because sometimes you just feellike you want to th throw your
hands up and not walk away fromit all, but I it the the kind of
(40:08):
frustration of of where we are,where we see the world going
today.
Kat Craig (40:12):
I think it's a really good question.
And I don't ever throw my handsup and walk away, but I do
sometimes kind of want to kicksomething quite hard.
And look, that that righteousindignation, as you, as you
rightly called it, I think is areally important motivator.
I think it gives us an energyto really kind of keep going.
(40:36):
Personally, what I've realizedis particularly around issues of
violence against women andgirls and gender equity, you
know, the stats are clear.
Discrimination, harassment,abuse, those are all things that
we'll either have experiencedor we know people and love
people who've experienced them.
So I think we have to recognisethis is part of the work I do
around kind of trauma-informedcoaching and trauma-informed
(40:58):
responses from institutions, isreally recognize what that does
to us physically when we engagein that space.
And there's a lot of work thatI think we can do where we care
for ourselves and each other.
I think that's really, reallyimportant.
I know that when I engage inthese issues, I have a kind of a
triggered response, right?
(41:19):
Talked all the way at thebeginning about that allergic
reaction to injustice, and thatis what it is, right?
It's an involuntary, acutereaction that I feel in my body
when I see or or hear aboutthings happening.
Actually, being a coach hasreally helped me with this, and
just really understanding whatthat does to me, and that if I'm
(41:44):
in that triggered responsemode, part of my brain just
doesn't function in the way thatit usually does.
So I think in the moment,before we can build solutions,
we have to understand that, youknow, if I go into an
organization and we're talkingabout cultural change, how do we
make this organization morethoughtful, more inclusive, more
purpose-driven, frankly, morecommercially ready for the next
(42:07):
generation, which is verydifferent than what it looked
like 20 years ago, where we havefans and consumers who want
different things.
I'll go into theseorganizations and sometimes
someone will say something thatI find really unpalatable,
right?
I think for us to be able tobuild solutions, we have to
(42:27):
understand that allergicreaction that we have.
We have to manage our ownemotions.
So that's on a veryinterparation, like on a
personal level, on a veryindividual level.
Make sure that you've done thatwork, whether it's healing or
self-actualizing, so that youcan you enable yourself to shift
from a reactive kind of brainto a thinking brain.
(42:51):
And that's when you can alsostart empathizing with people
and understanding where they'recoming from.
And look, there are certainpeople that I have absolutely no
time to empathize with.
But when we talk about thosethree categories of our
audiences, the kind of earlyadopters, the strong detractors,
and that middle ground, if weare going to make change, we
have to be able to haveconstructive dialogue with each
(43:14):
other.
That is the only way that we'regoing to get forward.
Now, there's lots thatinstitutions have to do, there's
lots that individuals have todo, but for us as women, I think
we will be more impactful if wegive ourselves the best chance
at success to switch from thatallergic reaction to a
(43:35):
thoughtful, intentional,constructive reaction.
I for me, I had to do a lot ofpersonal work around that.
And that really only came, Iwant to say last 10 years,
possibly the last five years.
I'm just able to navigate thosesituations a little bit more
thoughtfully, really trying tounderstand where other people
are coming from.
Again, I think we haven'ttalked a lot other than kind of
(43:58):
the pushback to the Me Toomovement about what the
political environment is thatwe're operating in.
I keep coming back to thispiece where we're so polarized,
there has to be an antidote tothat.
And I think being compassionatewith ourselves and within
reason with others is part ofthat.
(44:19):
Without compromising our ethicsand our morals, but just not
being too judgmental, I think,is is critical while also being
judicious in how you spend yourtime and energy.
Sue Anstiss (44:30):
Also true.
Will you run for a primeminister or something at some
point, please, Kat?
And you talk positively.
I'm I'm a bit like you.
I'd like to look on the thepositive of, but but the last
decade and that we've seen somepositive shifts in different
areas around sport and humanrights.
So where do you see thingsevolving in in the next decade?
Are there areas that thatspecifically need more attention
(44:52):
that we're not paying attentionto right now?
Kat Craig (44:55):
Yeah, I think we're absolutely at an inflection
point.
The good news is I'm really,really confident that there is a
movement of people, many ofthem women, that can influence
that inflection point.
It it feels like a moment intime for me.
And the benefit of age meansthat I've seen these ups and
(45:15):
downs at various stages.
But I feel that there is thisopportunity, there is a
willingness among some leadersto be a little bit more
courageous.
I think that's a criticalpiece.
There's lots of evidence nowthat shows that you can, again,
look at it from the safeguardingperspective.
You can have great policies,you can have education, you can
(45:37):
put really great safeguardingofficers in place.
But unless there's buy-in fromleadership, it's really
difficult to change.
So I think it's reallyimportant that leaders step up
and are courageous andconsciously depart from that
short-termist view.
I think we are holding thefuture of sport in our hands at
the moment, and it can really goone of two ways.
(45:58):
I'm really optimistic about thenext generation, I have to say,
it gives me such joy and hope,particularly working with young
women, but there are someamazing young men out there as
well, who have all of thepassion and energy, and you and
I have spoken about this in thepast as well, kind of are better
at putting boundaries in placeand have higher expectations of
(46:21):
everyone around them.
And that's just so wonderful tosee.
And I think there's a lot to behopeful about when you look at,
as I said, younger consumers,younger fans.
There's a direction we're goingin.
That inflection point I thinkis also commercially relevant.
So we've seen changes, right?
If you look at the Yorkshirecricket racism scandal, their
(46:44):
major sponsor left because notjust because it happened, but
because they handled it sobadly.
There was such a lack oftransparency and process, et
cetera, in responding to that.
And I think there was a studypublished just this week from
Amnesty International andsomeone else, where they looked
at 10,000 people in 10 Europeancountries, 75% of whom said they
(47:06):
wanted companies held toaccount for human rights
violations, for environmentaldegradation.
That may not feel like it toleaders in sport, but that is
the direction of travel.
And I'm really not convincedthat that's going to go away,
even though we're in turbulentpolitical times.
I think there is a nextgeneration coming up and through
that will make those demands.
(47:27):
So we're at an inflectionpoint.
I'm not saying it's a dead certthat we're going in the right
direction, because I don't thinkthat's how progress works.
I think that'd be very naivelooking at some of the trends.
But I absolutely think thatthere is an opportunity to seize
on that for courageous leadersand that we as a movement of
women in sport have a criticalrole to play together to change
(47:52):
that.
And one of my favorite studiesfrom outside of sport that I
always reflect back on,particularly on gender equity,
there's a, I think it was a 2012study around combating violence
against women.
And it was a 30-year studyacross 70 different countries
around which factors wouldpredict strong and effective
(48:14):
policies on violence againstwomen.
And they looked at everything,all the things that I think
would matter, right?
What's the political leaning ofyour government, how many women
there are in legislatures, whatthe GDP of the country is.
And none of those things wereas important as one single
factor.
And it was autonomous feministmovements.
(48:36):
So when we as women, and Idon't really mind if you call
yourself a feminist or not, Ithink if we as women understand
that women face particular risksand have a seat at the table,
and that if we have that seat atthe table and we support and
uplift each other, positivechange will happen.
That is the key factor forsocial change and gender equity
(48:58):
across countries and acrosstime.
So there's an inflection point,if we stick together, I am
eternally optimistic that we caninfluence that tipping point
and build a collective future ofsport that is inclusive not
just of women, but other groupsthat have been excluded and
(49:21):
disenfranchised and harmed.
I think that is absolutelypossible.
I don't think it's inevitable,but I think it's possible.
Sue Anstiss (49:34):
I'm really thinking I might have to do a part two
episode with Kat Craig.
What an extraordinary woman sheis.
If you'd like to hear fromother trailblazers like Kat,
there are over 200 episodes ofthe Game Changers that are free
to listen to on all podcastplatforms or from our website at
fearlesswomen.co.uk.
Guests include elite athletes,entrepreneurs, broadcasters,
(49:58):
coaches, scientists, journalistsand CEOs, all women who are
changing the game in sport.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
can also find out more about theWomen's Sport Collective, a
free, inclusive community forall women working in sport.
We now have over 14,000 membersacross the world, so please do
(50:19):
come and join us.
The whole of my book, Game On,The Unstoppable Rise of Women's
Sport, is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Every episode of series 13 isme reading a chapter of the
book.
Huge thanks to Sport England,who support the Game Changers
and the Women's Sport Collectivewith a National Lottery Award.
(50:40):
Thank you also to Sam Walker atWhat Goes On Media, who does
such an excellent job as ourexecutive producer, and thank
you to my brilliant colleague atFearless Women, Kate Hannon.
The Game Changers is availableon all podcast platforms, so
please do follow us now and youwon't miss out on future
episodes.
(51:00):
Do come and say hello on socialmedia, but you'll find me on
LinkedIn and Instagram at SueAnstis.
The Game Changers.
Fearless Women in Sport.
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