March 31, 2025 • 61 mins
“When the world forgets Afghanistan, we keep speaking. We are the voices of the women who can no longer be heard.”
What would you risk for the right to play sport? For Khalida Popal, the answer is everything.
This powerful episode of The Game Changers tells the extraordinary story of a woman who defied the Taliban, challenged a corrupt sporting system and used football to fight for the lives and freedoms of women and girls across the world.
Khalida Popal was just a child when her family fled Taliban rule in Afghanistan. In the harsh reality of a refugee camp, she discovered football – a game that gave her joy, freedom, and purpose. Returning to Afghanistan as a teenager, she dared to play in public, formed the country’s first women’s national team and proudly captained her side in the face of threats, abuse and constant danger.
But her leadership didn’t stop on the pitch. Khalida spoke out about the abuse of female players by senior figures in Afghan football and uncovered horrific corruption at the highest levels. It was these actions that meant she was eventually forced to flee for her life.
Now living in Denmark, Khalida continues her relentless activism through the Girl Power Organisation, while leading a global campaign to get FIFA to recognise Afghan women footballers in exile – players stripped of their national identity simply because they are women.
In this gripping and deeply moving conversation, Khalida shares how she helped evacuate over 600 women and girls from Afghanistan when the Taliban returned to power in 2021, what it means to lose your identity as a refugee, and why she refuses to stay silent – even when her own life is at risk.
Raw, emotional and deeply inspiring, this is not just a story about sport. It’s about power, oppression, survival and hope. Khalida Popal is a true game changer.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sue Anstiss (00:03):
Hello and welcome to The Game Changers.
I'm Sue Anstiss, and this isthe podcast where you'll hear
from trailblazing women in sportwho are knocking down barriers
and challenging the status quofor women and girls everywhere.
What can we learn from theirjourneys as we explore key
issues around equality in sportand beyond?
I'd like to start with a verybig thank you to our partners,
(00:24):
Sport England, who support TheGame Changers podcast through a
National Lottery award.
My guest today is Khalida Popal, former captain of the
Afghanistan women's nationalfootball team and a pioneering
activist who has dedicated herlife to empowering women through
sports, advocating for genderequality and using football as a
(00:47):
tool for social change.
Khalida was born in Afghanistanand fled Taliban rule with her
family as a young child.
She grew up in a refugee campin Pakistan, where she began
playing football.
When Khalida returned toAfghanistan, she co-founded the
women's football team and becameits first captain.
(01:08):
Sadly, Khalida's advocacy forwomen's rights in sport put her
own life in danger and she wasagain forced to flee Afghanistan
.
Still supporting the women'steam remotely, Khalida settled
in Denmark, where she uncoveredthe sexual abuse of players by
the former President of theAfghanistan Football Federation.
(01:28):
When Kabul fell to the Talibanin 2021, Khalida organised an
international evacuation to saveher teammates and her story is
shared in the stunning newmemoir my Beautiful Sisters.
Today, Khalida is the founderand director of the Girl Power
(01:50):
organisation, a programmemanager for Right to Dream and a
member of the UNHCR Sport forRefugees Coalition.
It's a real privilege to talk toyou, Khalida.
I know I was saying earlierwe've been in many rooms
together but never really satdown and had a proper
(02:11):
conversation, so I'm so lookingforward to this and and kind of
digging more into your storyhaving read your fantastic book.
So, if I can start with thekind of your history and
background, you were born inAfghanistan in an incredibly
progressive and well-educatedextended family.
So your grandfather, I think,was a university professor.
Your grandmother was one of thefirst girls to graduate from
(02:34):
school in Kabul.
Can you tell us more aboutfamily life as you remember it
as a very young child?
Khalida Popal (02:41):
First of all, thank you so much for having me.
It's such a privilege and honor.
It's one of my favoritepodcasts and I love every
episode and I'm still followingwhen I'm in a car driving.
I love to hear that it's aprivilege.
I'm so excited about this.
Back to the question.
I grew up in a male-dominatedcountry, in a war-torn country I
(03:04):
always say that where war hasaffected lives of so many people
, especially when it comes towomen and girls, and it has also
affected my life.
But I always also call myselfas one of the privileged people
because I had a family supportin that country where patriarchy
is dominant.
(03:24):
In a country where patriarchyis dominant where my father and
my grandfather always calledthemselves as feminists it was
the first time I heard from themthe term that they used.
I am a feminist, so they wereminorities with that mindset in
the country.
We have the responsibility inour life.
(03:44):
We have to stand for somethingbigger than ourselves.
Our privilege is our power andwe need to use it for our
community, for the people, andto stand up for each other.
So that's how I learned growingup from my parents and
grandparents.
The country was very difficultwhen it comes to women and girls
(04:05):
, where girl child marriages wasvery famous and popular.
Honor killing was one of partof the culture in giving birth
to girls.
People perceived us assomething bad and taboo and
parents were seen as weak peoplewhen they give birth to a girl
(04:28):
child and a boy child.
Sue Anstiss (04:30):
Why do you feel your grandfather and your father
had such a different attitudeto the other kind of men around
you in society?
Khalida Popal (04:39):
I think it's because of our culture has never
been like that, and so it's thewar that has affected and my
father and grandfather.
They are well-educated people,they are people from the time
that women and men were seen asequal, because the culture in
(04:59):
Afghanistan, the history ofAfghanistan, it wasn't always
like male dominated, it wasn'twar-torn country.
So our core, our foundation,our history was not very
different from the Western world.
If you see the old pictures ofAfghanistan, women and men were
contributing and were active inthe society, equally active in
(05:20):
the society.
But unfortunately, war hastaken everything from us and has
destroyed our culture.
Sue Anstiss (05:29):
It is quite shocking, isn't it?
I think I saw some photosrecently I think it might have
been Iran of women in the 60sand 70s like, dressed as we
would expect Western women to bedressed equally, working and
sharing within community, and Ithink I hadn't.
You almost assume that that'show it has always been, but that
isn't the case.
Khalida Popal (05:48):
No, it's not the case in Afghanistan.
Also, before the war,afghanistan was different, and
when I see the photos from mygrandparents and hear their
stories, they are talking abouta country that I never
recognized because my generationgrew up in war.
So I lost the first year of myschool because of civil war and
(06:13):
I still remember how much I waslooking forward to start my
school.
I was counting my days as youngkids who have the new uniform,
new school bag and they'relooking so much forward to go to
school and start school andhave friends.
But then there was a delay oneyear delay in my education,
because the civil war happenedand our school was used for
(06:35):
internal displaced people, andso we were counting the days
that the war was over and we cango to school.
Sue Anstiss (06:43):
And it was 1996, I think that you and your family
fled the Taliban rule and movedinto a refugee camp in Pakistan.
You were there for four years,so that must have been such a
shocking experience for you as ayoung girl, but also for your
whole family.
So what are your kind ofmemories of that time?
Khalida Popal (07:03):
Our family was in a great danger and the time Our
family was in great danger, thelife of our family was in great
danger because they were veryactive in the previous
government, before the Taliban,and so they were targeted and we
had to leave overnight our homeand flee to Pakistan and to
start from zero.
We couldn't take anything withus.
(07:25):
The only thing that we tookwith us was a blanket, because
it was winter.
And we went to Pakistan and weended up in refugee camp, which
was very difficult.
We lost everything and we lostour childhood in war.
I was on the end of the secondgrade at school that the Taliban
(07:48):
took over, so we were refugeesand so since then I started, I
had to work equally with myeverybody in the family, so I
was taking care of my brotherswhen my parents were out trying
to work and find food for us,were out trying to work and find
food for us, and so orsometimes I was in the shop with
(08:08):
my father and I was working.
So I don't remember my time asa child or as a teenager having
like a normal teenager life.
I don't remember, because thatwar has taken that away from me
and we had to grow up as adults.
We had to be an adult in a veryyoung age and take the
(08:29):
responsibility Losing anidentity and losing community,
losing friends, losing peoplearound you.
That is the case of refugees inso many places around the world
.
Sue Anstiss (08:43):
And was that where your passion and your interest
in football was first sparked,within the refugee camp.
Khalida Popal (08:50):
Yes, our family was always a good supporter of
sports and there was alwayssport around us.
So my mum and dad I used togrow up seeing them playing
badminton with other people, soit was like a social gathering.
Was badminton that was kind ofa game that they used to play or
(09:10):
volleyball, so I used to seethem, but for me it was football
, because football was one ofthe first and very popular game
in Afghanistan.
That's how we used to seestreet sports.
Street football was the main,and when we went to pakistan,
the best thing about footballthat I love so much is is the
(09:33):
game for for all, likeregardless of where you in the
society you are, what status youhave, it's for everybody.
It's the the game for poor andrich, um, and it's just.
All you need to do is.
You don't need a fancyequipment, all you need to do is
, like put stones as goalpoststhat's what how we did and just
(09:54):
have something like even abottle as kind of like a ball,
and then you have a team andthen you play and this it
becomes competitive.
That's how we started usingfootball in the streets in
Pakistan and we found acommunity and it wasn't girls
playing football, it was onlyboys and I was playing with the
(10:14):
boys.
Sue Anstiss (10:15):
And when you returned to Afghanistan, the
Taliban were no longer in power.
But what were the culturalattitudes then to women playing
football, playing sport?
Khalida Popal (10:26):
For eight years.
Women were not allowed to getout of their home during the
Taliban without a company by amale member of the family.
They were not allowed to go toschool, watch TV and be without
burqa.
So they were all from top totoe.
They were covered.
(10:46):
So when the Taliban lost thepower and international allies
came to Afghanistan, still therewas the fear amongst people
that the Taliban returned andyou could still feel the kind of
the smell of the war andoppression in the society.
And eight years is a long timefor a country, a society where
(11:12):
the development was stopped,school was stopped, people
didn't go to school, people wereeven not allowed to and were
punished for watching TV orlistening to radios.
So it affected the culture.
So young girls like myself,when we returned back, we were
teenagers and we grew up in adifferent culture which was a
(11:35):
little bit open than the Afghanculture.
And that's where for us it wasdifficult to be active in the
community because we wereconstantly receiving warnings,
we were harassed because of notwearing hijabs and burqas.
We were part of that countrybut we were not seen as kind of
(11:57):
like the women from that countrybecause of our upbringing,
because the way we were thinkingand because of our education
that we had from being outsideAfghanistan.
But still, all I wanted to dowas to have some in a kind of in
a very negative and toughenvironment.
(12:18):
I wanted to have fun, I wantedto find joy, I wanted to feel
belong to a place, and that wasfootball, because that's what I
knew from playing in a refugeecenter, refugee camps where I
felt the freedom Freedom meaningfreedom of thinking, freedom of
(12:39):
mentally feeling free, becauseit's a lot of pressure when
you're a refugee, when you're ina country where you're
oppressed and everybody isdeciding for you, just based on
your gender, how to walk, how toclean, how to do things, how to
even talk.
(13:01):
As a woman, as a girl, childeverybody is deciding and having
actually a decision over yourlife.
That's part of the culture, andso, for me, football was the,
was creating moments of freedomwhere I was not talking,
thinking about what, how to kindof like walk, how to run, how
to laugh, how to kind of likewalk, how to run, how to laugh,
(13:23):
how to scream, how to yell andhow to lead.
And that was the freedom thatmade me feel, fall in love with
the game, and I found my passionbecause of the freedom I felt
through football, and footballbecome my passion and I was
playing with boys streetfootball again, but this time
(13:47):
was different because I was ateenager.
My body shape changed and ofcourse, there was more pressure
from the society.
People were noticing me and sothe neighbors were putting so
much pressure on my brothers.
They were bullying the boys inmy team for allowing me to play
with them, and I still I wantedto continue.
(14:08):
I didn't want them to win andstop me, but there was a time
that I had to to find a solution, to continue playing football,
but not with the boys.
Sue Anstiss (14:20):
It's incredible, isn't it, that you continued on
in way, despite all that goingon around society and family.
When you think back, why is itthat you think you overcame
those societal pressures?
Because you could easily havejust I'm sure there were many
girls that would have stopped atthat point.
Khalida Popal (14:38):
For me it was.
I keep questioning that.
Why a boy or like my brother,can play sport any sport that
they want, and I can't becauseof being a girl or being a young
woman?
Why I can't?
Why is this?
The society is deciding for me.
(15:00):
It should be my decision aswell.
's what I keep saying.
If I allow my neighbor to takedecision for me, they will
continue doing that over my allmy life, and I'm not a slave and
I'm I'm part of the society Iam.
I have equal rights to mybrother or the boys in the team.
If they take the decision toplay and continue playing
(15:22):
football, I should have the samerights and I will not allow the
people to decide for me.
I will fight for it and I willfight for my right.
And that was in the beginning.
It was about me.
It was about my right and Ididn't think about the whole
picture, about the women in thesociety.
It was about my right and thepassion was threatened to be
(15:44):
taken away, the freedom that Iwas feeling.
So I continued.
One of the funny things I didwas like giving up is not an
option for me and I never wantthat option.
So I continued finding a teamand I went undercover and I
played in a boys team pretendingthat I'm a boy and only the
(16:05):
coach knew.
So, coach, he was such afantastic person he was he told
me that I will allow you untiluntil, like, they recognize and
discover that you are a girl,and the minute that they do that
, then you will stop coming tomy team, because then it we will
face the challenge.
And I went undercover.
I went, I wore extrasizedjerseys, I had the hat on me and
(16:31):
then a cup, so I was hiding myhair and I was playing and I was
also pretending that I am deafand I can't talk and hear.
Difficult for me.
I'm so loud, I love to take alead, I want to show myself and
I want to ask for a ball.
(16:51):
But to be able to continueplaying football, I had to.
For a while I had to be silentand I play silent football.
But it didn't take a long timethat some of the boys were
curious about who I am and theystarted following me.
They found out that I'm goingto girls' school and they
discovered that I'm a girl.
So I stopped playing with theboys and then I said okay, what
(17:15):
is it that I can do.
Maybe there are more girls likeme who love to play football
and because of these culturalbarriers, I will go and find my
own team and that's how Istarted going to my own school
and started recruiting girls.
Find my own team and that's howI started going to my own
school and started a campaign,started recruiting girls from my
own school, from differentclasses, and in here my mom was
(17:37):
my biggest supporter because shewas my PE teacher and she had
access to the equipment to thestudents.
I started recruiting girls intofootball and for me that time
was that okay.
Now I have a team.
We started from only two peopleand then it continued having
more girls into football and Iwanted the girls to enjoy the
(18:01):
freedom, the freedom that I feltand experienced.
I wanted them to experiencethat.
So it was nothing fancyfootball, it was putting our
school bags having somethinground like a ball.
And then later on, we found amagic ball.
We call it a magic ball.
The black and white color,beautiful football that we
(18:25):
played.
We called that as a magic ball.
The reason we call that as amagic ball.
The reason we call that as amagic ball because of the, the
fun and the joy that footballbrings.
The minute the ball startsrolling, you have the joy and
yeah, and it brings a smile inyour face and that's the.
That's what we love so muchabout football.
And so the number of the girlsgrew in our team, so we had two
(18:47):
teams in in one school.
For me in that time it was moreof like okay, we found, we
found our team, we have ourspace and and and that's it, we
will play until like um, it wasa turning moment that for us,
that it changed from passion topurpose when our team was
(19:09):
attacked by a group of men fromoutside the school and they had
the knife and destroyed thatmagic ball and told us that
women cannot walk properly, howthey can play football.
Football is man's game.
Women belong to the kitchen.
You have to learn how to cookand clean and serve your future
(19:33):
husband and you should not playsport.
It's against the honor of thefamily, it's against the honor
of the country.
And they started yelling at usand insulting us.
And that was a turning momentfor me where I felt and I
(19:53):
experienced there is a biggerchallenge for us waiting there
in the society than just ustrying to play football and for
me, it was that moment that Isaid football is going to be my
tool and my voice is going to bemy strong tool to be the voice
for our sisters and I willcontinue the campaign.
(20:14):
And that is the movementthrough.
Football started in Afghanistanand it went from my school to
different schools.
We had an official league andthen later on, we really managed
to get some.
We tried so hard to get afootball federation on board.
It sounds like easy, but it wasdifficult to get the
(20:36):
afghanistan football federationon board to recognize our league
and and and help us to to finda and establish our first
women's national team and makehistory, which we did.
Sue Anstiss (20:51):
It was fantastic, and how did that feel at that
time to be representing yourcountry on the field, hearing
the national anthem.
I mean especially havingovercome all you had to get to
be in that place.
Khalida Popal (21:05):
When the entire country tells you you can't and
and you face so many barriers,so many challenges and it's
constant and continuous umpressure, insults and and danger
and risks that you're you face.
And then you prove it and youstand together as a team and you
(21:26):
make history.
When everybody said you can't,and you made it there and the
jerseys that we wore it was notgiven.
We really earned that, wereally fought for that, and so
the badge on our chest was thevictory.
Already, even we were standingon the pitch, it wasn't like the
(21:48):
game wasn't even started.
We felt some sort of victoryand it was beyond football.
It was nothing about football,it was beyond football and it
was a group of women who proventhat we can when we become as a
unit and we believe in ourpurpose and our journey.
(22:10):
And when the national anthemwas played for the first time,
that was so emotional moment forus we started crying.
We started crying because itwas a confirmation of our
victory, that we made the firststep, and of course, there is
(22:30):
still challenges, but we won.
It was daring, the youngergirls, the generation, the new
generation that we made it, it'spossible and you can continue,
and that was the best andbeautiful moment for us.
Sue Anstiss (22:45):
And was the support for you then, as this team came
together, in terms of fans, butalso financial support from the
Federation.
Khalida Popal (22:55):
It was so difficult Like this story.
Maybe so many people around theworld who play women's football
.
They resonate with this,because you get little support
and you have to just keep quietand you appreciate and you just
don't complain because, yes,because you will not complain
and be always grateful.
Yes, just be grateful.
So when our women's nationalteam was founded and we were
(23:20):
practicing for a tournament toum to represent afghanistan
abroad, we were given thetainest cord, half of the
tainest cord.
Even they didn't bother to takeaway the nets and they were not
allowing us to take the tainestnets away and that is a full
(23:41):
squat training on half of thetainest cord.
This is how it shows that, how,when we reflect back, it was
actually we were set to failbecause we were told by the
Afghanistan Football Federationthat you will bring
embarrassment to the country.
How dare you thought that womencan actually represent
Afghanistan.
So it took us a long time inthe whole negotiation but we
(24:04):
were like not complaining, evenhaving that half of the tennis
court.
We were like not complaining,even having that half of the
tennis court.
We were not complaining, wewere grateful.
We were trying to stay quietand just kind of be grateful for
what we have and and reallythink about our bigger purpose
and and our mission and ourwhole movement for our sisters
in af.
(24:25):
So there was no budget.
Our jerseys that were given wasso bad that when we started our
first game it was ripped apartor the numbers were kind of
fading.
Uniform is so much actuallyaffecting on your
self-confidence as an athleteand sometimes people
(24:48):
underestimate that when you havea good uniform and it looks
more professional, you look moreprofessional.
It actually affects yourself-confidence.
The football boots that weregiven to us they didn't give us
that football boots before inthe training, just before the
game starts, they give us thefootball boots and they said,
(25:11):
like you need to fit your yourfeet in the boot.
So it's not that we, we don'thave other options, so you need
to just fit your shoe, your feetand that.
So I remember I had my toesjust kind of like really it was
one size smaller and I had mytoes like really in right, I was
really trying to fit my feet inthat and that destroyed us and
(25:34):
it was like we all had bruisesall over and we still we were
saying nothing, we were gratefuland we were not complaining
because we didn't want that tobecome a barrier for Football
Federation to stop us fromplaying football and we played
several games.
It was an unofficial tournamentin Pakistan and we had to figure
(25:57):
out how to actually play in abig, standard size pitch.
And it was funny the goalpostwas too big for us and we were
saying, oh my God, is it goingto be the standard size of the
goal?
And the whole football stadiumwas standard.
It was a beautiful stadium,beautiful football pitch and
(26:18):
real football pitch.
Everything felt real and so bigand scary.
But we as a team had to figureout how to really work together
to learn how to play, how toactually run on that football
pitch and how to actually saveour goal.
It was nothing professional,honestly nothing professional.
(26:41):
We had to figure out becausethe coach that was given to us,
he was worried for a whole listthat his wife and his
mother-in-law give him to doshopping from Pakistan and he
was all the time talking aboutthe shopping list of all the
(27:01):
things that he had to buy and hewas worried and he was stressed
about it and he was not talkingabout football game, about our
formation, about anything.
And we had to figure outourselves, how to actually stand
together, how to form our team,where to actually which post we
should stand.
That's how we have actuallytried to come together as a team
(27:23):
.
But then we managed to, tolearn how to win and score the
goals and in we had fans therewatching us and and that's where
, first time, we had one of thenational tvs broadcasted our
game and some of the familiesthat were not aware that we are
(27:45):
playing football, they found outfrom TV the national TVs that
there is a women's teamrepresenting Afghanistan and
some of their daughters wereplaying, because some of our
players went undercover and theydidn't tell their families and
it was secret.
But it was no more secret forthe nation that there is a
(28:06):
national team, there's a women'steam representing Afghanistan.
Sue Anstiss (28:10):
And you went on, didn't you?
To work at the AfghanistanFootball Federation.
You're the first woman to workthere, so firstly in a finance
role and then as head of theWomen's Football Committee and
Director of Women's Football,and things, I think started well
, so there were moreopportunities for other women
too.
Were you hopeful at that timethat there might be real change
(28:31):
at the top of the sport?
Khalida Popal (28:32):
um, it's funny the way kind of like the whole
negotiations happened, like my,my role in Afghanistan Football
Federation, but also even the,the fact that Football
Federation got on boardrecognizing women's football and
allowing.
So the first negotiation, withrecognizing our league and
allowing us to have a nationalteam, was my negotiation with
(28:56):
Afghanistan Football Federationand that was it wasn't about
women empowerment.
It doesn't work in thecountries like Afghanistan when
you it's the whole negotiation,the whole, like the whole
conversation.
When it's about women,inclusion of women, if you go as
a feminist activist mindset,you will lose.
(29:16):
So you have to figure out thelanguage of how they can
actually allow you to get onboard.
And that was the money.
So we say that you get thebudget, you get the money, you
get all the recognition, all thecredit, we will work, we'll
find out our budget, we'll findall the kind of the funds,
(29:37):
everything from outside.
You, as Football Federation,get all the credit, all the
budget, and that is how we wonthe first negotiation that
Football Federation was on board.
And that is how we won thefirst negotiation that Football
Federation was on board.
The second negotiation, thesecond part, that they allowed,
(29:59):
they accepted me to work as thefirst woman in their history was
the fact that AfghanistanFootball Federation and it's a
funny story, no-transcript hecame up with an idea that it
(30:22):
should be a woman and it shouldbe a young woman who will not
have the courage that's hisdefinition will not have the
courage and guts to steal themoney and end up in corruption.
And for me, because I wasreally fighting for a long time
to have the voice of women indecision making and the
(30:43):
federation where they takedecision for us, so it was a
great opportunity.
I was like I don't care what isthe definition, what is the
kind of the whole idea abouthaving a woman in Afghanistan
Football Federation.
This is the best time for me,because I know what is my goal,
what is my purpose and I will gofor it.
And so I really went there andI had the negotiation.
(31:06):
I was, like having theconversation there, like with
the Afghanistan FootballFederation's president, that I
don't have the guts, I don'thave the courage to steal money,
I don't have the power to evenlike, do anything and skip from
the country.
So don don't worry, your moneyis going to be saved and I'll
assure that, like, everythingwill be according to what you're
(31:27):
kind of trying to plan and whatthe finances to get him on
board.
And that is how I entered theAfghanistan Football Federation
and then I was fighting so hardto get into Afghanistan Football
Federation's women's footballdepartment and to lead the
women's football, and so then Igot two positions head of
(31:52):
women's football and the head offinance.
And then I was elected in theboard, where I was the only
woman in the board and of courseI faced insults and they were
bullying.
They were yeah, they weremocking me, but I knew what is
(32:12):
my purpose and why I am there,and it was because of our women,
our team, our future and thevoices of us.
Sue Anstiss (32:23):
And just to be clear, because it did surprise
me, I think, as I kind ofdiscovered more, the people
leading sports organisations inAfghanistan aren't just general
sports administrators like wemight see in the UK or elsewhere
in the world, but they're oftengovernors or generals in the
military or men working with theTaliban who were given these
additional positions in sport asas part of their job roles.
(32:46):
And I think it was as you beganto talk more openly about the
misuse of power and and how itwas impacting women and girls is
.
Is that where it became anissue for you in terms of your
questioning that corruption andauthority within sport?
Khalida Popal (33:00):
yeah, it's unfortunate because the most
powerful men in the in thecountry who are very much
involved in in government, inmilitary or in war, some of the
warlords, that's how it's calledthey have the position and they
are the, the people with highinfluence that have these
(33:21):
positions in sport.
So when you, for example, go toa federation in the Western
world, what you see is moresports, kids, anything related
to sport.
But in Afghanistan and severalcountries like Afghanistan, the
first thing you see entering thesports arena is the gun, the
bodyguards and all the militaryequipments and that is scary.
(33:44):
That is scary and that'sdangerous.
And so you can see that howdifficult and dangerous and
brave was for women to decide towork there.
But for me, playing forAfghanistan Women's National
Team, making history and kind oflike working in Afghanistan
Football Federation, was notenough.
I wanted to use my platformbecause as an athlete, when you
(34:08):
get in like certain status andit comes with power, it is a
responsibility.
With power, you haveresponsibility.
How do you use that?
So my power was my platform,because I was more recognized in
the country.
I got the platform, I got thepower and I felt responsible
(34:30):
towards my community, towardsthe people, and my platform was
strong calling the governmentand calling people to question
the leadership in sport and whois leading sport and how the
corruption and abuse of poweraffects the participation of
(34:52):
women in the society and insport.
So I started questioning those.
I started openly talking aboutthose, which was direct call to
people in a sport that wasinvolved, and that's where I
received that threat.
I was threatened directly froma very powerful man in the
(35:13):
government.
Unfortunately, my family wasattacked several times and
physically attacked.
It came to a time that was toodangerous for me to stay in the
country because several timesthere were attempts towards my
life.
It became too political, so myvoice became stronger.
(35:38):
The stronger my voice was, themore I was losing the freedom,
so I was not able to go aloneoutside.
I continuously had the threatsin my family.
I was losing the freedom.
I didn't have really time totake a decision, but there was
(35:59):
one question in my head that ifthey shot me?
But there was one question inmy head that if they shot me,
there won't be any girl who willdream and dare to actually
continue.
If, in one way or another way,I inspired them to take the lead
and to stand for themselves.
I want to save my voice forthat girl to continue.
So that was the moment that Ihad to skip to survive.
Sue Anstiss (36:26):
And it was incredibly moving in the book to
hear about that journey in yoursearch for asylum into Pakistan
, to India, then on toScandinavia, as you kind of
sought that, a safe place to be,as you say, and retain your
voice too.
How did you deal with that fearand the uncertainty of that
journey and losing your sense ofidentity as a refugee?
Khalida Popal (36:48):
It was so difficult.
It was never an idea of likethe whole movement I started.
My idea was never to leave mycountry, never leave the people
to seek asylum or go abroad.
But that happened and I didn'teven have the time to say
goodbye to my loved ones.
I left the country to be alive,and it's a natural human act,
(37:14):
kind of like going through astressful situation, anxiety,
living underground.
How stressed I was that I hadnightmares.
There was time that I couldn'tsleep.
I had to turn on all the lightsto make sure there is not even
a dark spot in the room, becauseI had the nightmares that there
is a man standing there tryingto shot me with or kill me with
(37:37):
a knife, or standing with aknife.
Those were the things that Iwas dreaming about and I stopped
like there was a time that Iwas too scared to fall asleep
because of those nightmares.
So I was going through that andso, like I ended up in refugee
centers in Scandinavia, norwayand Denmark.
Life was so different anddifficult.
(37:58):
Yes, I had the safety.
I had the shelter to live.
I had food on the table, whichI'm grateful for.
I never complained about that,of course.
I had the safety and theshelter to continue life.
But as a refugee, as people thatyou leave your country, your
home, you lose the identity andthat is one of the horrible
(38:20):
things that happened to humanbeings.
You were someone and all of asudden you're nobody.
The identity, and that is oneof the horrible things that
happen to human being.
You are someone and all of asudden you're nobody.
And there is an id card and atthe refugee center that they
give you what?
The number, and you areidentified by a number, even not
your name, and then you'rewaiting for unknown situation,
unknown decision for someone totake a decision about you, for
(38:40):
you and for your future.
And you have to go through asystem that re-traumatizing you
continuously.
Because this is the process andyou are investigated.
You are kind of sitting as acriminal and there is an
immigration officer or policecontinuously asking you several
questions why you?
Why you left your country, whyyou?
(39:01):
What will happen?
That if you return back, it'skind of re-traumatizing you,
re-traumatizing you, and evenliving in the refugee center
which is close to a militaryoperations, like you see all the
the war, kind of like it's oldcompound of military and army,
(39:22):
so you're actually living intrauma that they will not allow
you to get out.
But then also the narrative isthreatened by some not so well
and good responsible media,right.
So it's the politician isfighting, and that's the
different thing that Iexperienced the politicians to
win the vote, it's the moreweight on immigration, how to
(39:46):
make the immigration difficultfor people, for immigrants, and
they become popular Just forwinning the votes.
They're writing narratives aboutour life without even us having
the opportunity to actuallytell our story from our side of
story, and that is also verydifficult when you're seeing
(40:09):
everything against you.
You are escaping from thesituation in your country that
you didn't want to, and nowyou're in a country that
everything is against and youhave to prove and prove yourself
, and there is no time for youto take a pause and reflect what
happened to your life, who youlost in.
You don't have the time.
You have to prove yourself thatyou're not stealing someone's
(40:30):
job, you're not stealingsomeone's money, you're.
You're a good immigrant, you'reintegrated, and integration is
most of the time on us.
It's like so much weight thatwe have to find a way to
integrate and that is for ahuman being.
It's too much to go through andthat's what I experienced
(40:52):
living as a refugee in refugeecentres.
But one thing that helped mewas football.
Sue Anstiss (40:58):
And how is life in Denmark today?
So have you been able to findthat community?
Khalida Popal (41:06):
What helped me was coaching football to women
in the refugee centers, becauseall I knew was they took away
everything from me inAfghanistan.
But what I didn't lose was mypurpose in life, and that is to
empower others to help andsupport others.
And that is my purpose in life,and that is to empower others
to help and support others.
And that is my purpose in lifeand that helped me and and keep
(41:28):
me alive and moving andmotivated me.
So I started coaching andrefugee centers, women to
overcome together, to overcomethe stressful situation, the
trauma and in anxiety anddepression that we were going
through.
When I got permission to stayin Denmark, I founded Girl Power
Organization and I startedbuilding community of women and
(41:51):
girls, especially with a specialfocus on marginalized community
, creating education andsporting opportunity, but also
building bridges between twocommunities and taking actually
the leadership in changing thenarrative.
For me, the way my mindset works, the way I function in life, is
(42:14):
that when I see challenge, Ithink about solution.
If we are part of the challengeand we are seen as our
community is seen as challenge,it's also a responsibility as a
community to find solutions, tosay that this is also possible
and you can see how we arecontributing positively in the
society as refugee people mark.
(42:45):
We started um, providingactivities and connecting women
and girls into sport, but alsocreating uh.
We started creating pathways tojob and and also sports for
women and also what our mainfocus was to help women to
actually tell their stories andown their narratives and then
expanded to around uh europe andin the UK.
We have recently it's a yearnow that we are expanded our
(43:10):
activities in the UK, in SouthYorkshire, providing sporting
and education activities forwomen and girls there, and we
have been outside Europe, inAfrica and Middle East, and we
have been connecting women fromaround the world and that's how
I expanded my community.
Sue Anstiss (43:26):
Brilliant, is that the mainstay of activity that
you're doing day to day nowwithin the organization?
Khalida Popal (43:31):
Yes, it's like it's my full time now.
Focus and beside that, I'm alsoworking with Write a Dream,
which one of the programs I'mleading is purpose
entrepreneurship.
Sue Anstiss (43:44):
it's social entrepreneurship program and
you've still been connected withthe afghanistan women's team
since you left the country.
So, yeah, you work with suzyrag from the guardian, who was
obviously another extraordinaryguest on the podcast who exposed
the sexual abuse by the formerpresident of the af Football
Federation which led to thisglobal impact across the sport,
(44:07):
and I know you've been such avery vocal activist around the
safety for women there.
Do you worry about your ownsafety now still, as you're
talking out on these issues?
Khalida Popal (44:17):
No, I don't want that kind of like to take away
from my motivation to do more.
I never stopped when I leftAfghanistan, never stopped
giving back and supporting thewomen of Afghanistan.
I never stopped, even living inthe refugee camp.
I continued supporting andcontinued being in contact with
Afghanistan Football Federation,with Afghanistan Women's
(44:39):
National Team and the grassrootsfootball through my
organization in Afghanistan.
And so one of the major casesin football was against sexual
abuse and harassment that wasled by the former president of
Afghanistan Football Federation.
They sent some people outsidemy door in Denmark to just show
(45:01):
their power, outside my door inDenmark, to just show their
power to threaten me to kind ofstop me for what I'm doing.
I feel safe in Denmark.
I don't want to think about mylife being taken away and I
remember from what KayleighLindsay, one of the greatest
(45:23):
people and one of the greatestleaders that I admire so much
and I see as my role model whatshe said that someone has to
take the bullet, and that's theextreme way I'm saying it.
Someone has to take the leadand sacrifice, so then the
others can benefit in thesociety.
And someone did for me, and thereason I'm here is because
(45:46):
someone else was before me andthat took that fight and I'm
grateful for all those amazingwomen and girls and men who
believed in the equity andequality.
He really fought hard and thereason I'm here because of them
I'm not the first one and I'mnot the first one and I'm not
going to be the last one isbecause of all those women,
(46:08):
amazing women that I admire andthey started, they opened the
doors of opportunity, they toldus this is possible and because
of them I'm here and I amcontinuing that.
I'm sure that there will benext generations who will see it
through my journey and continuethis, the good fight for
inclusion and equity, and I willcontinue doing that.
(46:30):
And if, in this fight,something happens to me, I
wouldn't regret and I wouldn'tworry because it's worth it.
It's everything I've done in mylife and things that I lost.
It was worth all worth for thisfight you mentioned the
magnificent kelly lindsey.
Sue Anstiss (46:52):
I completely agree with you.
You know that kind of wildpraise for her and and she was
part of that group of her andkat craig and organizations like
fif, fifa Pro that cametogether to help you to get some
of the players out whenAfghanistan fell to the Taliban
again in 2021.
And those female footballerswere in danger for their lives
(47:15):
and so it was necessary to helpthem escape the country.
Were you surprised at the timehow people did unite together to
make that happen?
Khalida Popal (47:24):
This is the beauty of football and beauty of
a sport the amazing network ofhow a sport and football can
actually impact lives of people,and great network and richness
and resources that it has.
I remember writing on socialmedia of asking people I didn't
(47:44):
know, like I have, of course, Ihave a great network of people.
Sometimes, when you have agreat network, you don't know
who to reach to.
I remember the post that I madeand and also the people who
reached out um Jonas from FIFPro, for example, the first one who
reached out to, and, and myfriends and everybody from my
network reached out and said howcan we help you to get the
(48:05):
girls out?
And that was kind of like thecall to action, call to save the
players' lives, because thefoundation of Afghanistan
Women's National Team was builton activism and these players
were recognized and they werejust by themselves.
They called Taliban as theirenemies and they stood up
against the ideology of Talibanand amazing individuals from
(48:28):
around the world, from Australiato Canada to the US, from UK to
(48:49):
Europe.
Everybody joined a collectivegroup where we were working
constantly, like without a stop.
We were working to lobby thegovernments, to get the
governments on board, to savethe players and their lives and,
of course, they saved theirlives.
We were playing our role tofacilitate that journey, that
(49:12):
escape for them and, as a resultof like a collective action, by
now more than 600 women andgirls with their families are
saved and they're outsideAfghanistan.
They are playing football,they're advocating, they're
studying, and every time Itravel to these areas for
(49:33):
example, the senior women'snational team is evacuated in
Australia, the junior women'steam is in Germany and Portugal,
in the UK and also in the USand some other countries.
Whenever I travel and meet themand we do programs together and
I see them kicking the ball,chasing their dreams and having
(49:56):
the freedom, chasing theirdreams and having the freedom.
We couldn't save all the womenfrom the country, but the women
who managed to get out andescape and they are chasing
their dreams.
That is the most beautiful andpowerful thing and I am so
grateful for every individualwho listened, who joined and who
saved these lives and have theybeen able to play for
(50:19):
Afghanistan as refugees, as arefugee team?
Unfortunately, since theevacuation, they lost their
status.
Based on the FIFA rules, it'sonly the member association who
can recognize a team, but themember association is now
governed and controlled byTaliban.
(50:41):
And Taliban put ban oneducation and sport, full ban
for women and girls.
Women are not even allowed togo in only women gym.
So sport is not seen assomething good for women
according to Taliban.
So we cannot wait for a memberassociation who is controlled by
(51:04):
Taliban to recognize a women'snational team and give a list to
FIFA.
So what we have been doing fromit's three and a half years now.
We have been advocating, we havebeen campaigning and I've been
leading this campaign to get therecognition, get FIFA on board
to find solution and worktogether with us by excluding
(51:27):
the Federation of Afghanistan,who is run and led by Taliban,
and work together with us tofind solution, to give our women
the right to represent thewomen of Afghanistan, Because
this team was built on thisfoundation of activism, being
the voice for our sisters.
(51:48):
Today we need our platform tobe the voice for our sisters who
lost the right.
They are an open present by thename of Afghanistan, so we want
to represent that and ourplayers are being active, they
are advocating and they arecontinuously playing football
and I'm sure, and I'm certainthat FIFA will get on board and
(52:12):
I'm hoping that Sarai Bahman,who is head of women's football,
who knows the struggle of women, Sarai Bahman, who is head of
women's football, who know thestruggle of women, who will gate
on board and who will worktogether with us to find
solutions where our women canrepresent the women of
Afghanistan.
Sue Anstiss (52:27):
And we've seen the same in cricket as well.
At the moment, haven't we Withthe women that left Afghanistan,
the cricketers who are not ableto play for the country, still
not recognised because the ICCdon't allow it?
Anyway, it just frustrates me,I guess, as an outsider watching
it happen, it seems likenothing is changing.
It's not changing fast enough.
(52:47):
But is it around the powerimbalance?
Is it around funding?
Why do you think these thingsthat feel like it's such an
obvious distribution of funding?
Because in some cases, themoney is still going into the
Football Federation for thefemale team, but it's not
reaching anybody, it's not beingutilised.
Khalida Popal (53:04):
Yeah, there is no confirmation where actually the
fund is going and it's actuallyany fund gone for the women's,
because 2021, since then, thewomen's football department is
dismissed, so we don't have anyconfirmation yet if there is any
fund win there, because that isalso a question.
The other thing is that thereis a violation of human right in
(53:27):
sport.
It's a gender discrimination,it's a black and white gender
discrimination in a sport, andthat's where we need governing
bodies of sport to take a standand stand by their own status,
because that is what theirstatus say, right.
So, and they haven't beenactive and fast enough to react
(53:47):
to that and I understand thecomplex situation of Afghanistan
we are not actually, especiallyin regards to our football team
.
They're not actually advocatingto remove the men's team.
What we want to say is it'syour problem If you want to kind
of stop men's football, it'syour problem.
What we want is to findsolutions for us that we have
the right to represent, becausethe whole movement started by
(54:10):
women for women in Afghanistan.
We sacrificed our lives.
We have lost so many lives inour families, in our team, to
gain that platform.
It shouldn't be shut down by agroup of men who thinks that
women belong to the kitchen andwomen should be servant.
We want the sport governingbodies to stand there and show
(54:32):
the leadership and say womenbelong to everywhere.
That's what we have beenadvocating, that's what we have
been pushing, and I will notgive up.
I'll continue pushing thegoverning bodies of sport to
stand by their own status and totake decision, to show where
they are standing.
Are they standing by beingsilent, supporting Taliban, or
(54:55):
they are standing with the women?
Who wants to take the lead, whowants to, who have sacrificed
so much?
They should stand by everythingthat.
What they are putting in theirbooks, it's gender
discrimination is three and ahalf year, almost four years,
and we don't, we haven't seenany action by the, by sporting
uh bodies.
That's what we are trying toadvocate for and hopefully we
(55:18):
will get somewhere.
Sue Anstiss (55:22):
And it's hard to comprehend, isn't it what's
happening to women inAfghanistan right now in terms
of their being completelyremoved from society, in terms
of they can't study or work orbe heard in any way.
I mean, it's heartbreaking frompeople that aren't even in the
country, don't have a historywith the country, but it must be
so heartbreaking for you,especially after all you've done
(55:43):
in the last 20 years.
So how do you manage to retainthat hope for the future?
Because clearly you have thatin talking to you, you do have
that, but how do you maintainthat?
Khalida Popal (55:54):
It is just being honest.
It is tough.
It is difficult, it's tiring.
This is not my full-time job.
I don't get for my bills to bepaid.
It's just a pure advocacy baseand I have not given up.
Since the day I started playingfootball I've not given up.
And in the case of Afghanistanwomen's national team, in every
(56:16):
campaign that we have had it hasbeen a tough one mentally,
physically, emotionally.
It's tiring in so many levels.
But what keeps me motivated isthe young girls.
When I meet them it'scontinuous that I am mentoring
and supporting them through myorganization or through personal
(56:37):
support.
When I still see the hope, thenit makes me feel motivated to
continue the advocacy.
But at the same time, there areso many girls in Afghanistan.
I am continuously receivingmessages from young girls in
Afghanistan to help them, tofind a way to get them out of
(57:00):
that prison.
And it's tiring, it's so toughone.
So what we are trying to do aswomen of Afghanistan from
outside is to show them that wehave not given up on you.
Do not lose hope.
We are sending, we are tryingto kind of use any opportunity
we have to tell them that we arethere, we see you, we hear you.
(57:23):
We are here, your voices, andwe feel responsible because the
world has forgotten aboutAfghanistan.
It's kind of like yesterday'snews.
The world moved on to so manyother conflicts, many other
conflicts, but we arecontinuously supporting the
women of Afghanistan to not giveup.
We are the voices.
We are using our platform asfootball.
(57:44):
We are using football tocontinue that advocacy, but, at
the same time, we are trying toalso tell the sporting world,
and, in our case, football, thatwhat is happening in the world
is crazy.
The conflicts and, afterconflicts, the climate changes,
will have so many challenges andit's unfortunate, but this is
(58:04):
real.
It will come more challenges.
Where is the solution?
Are they prepared or not?
Why take four years, five years, for them to take a decision?
They need to act fast.
Afghanistan is one of theexample, and it was the example
back then, in 2018, when westarted the sexual abuse case.
There was no system in place toactually find solutions for the
(58:27):
victims and survivors of sexualabuse, and now it has changed.
Of course, more people gotinvolved.
The policies change, thesystems change, but they need to
act because they have power,they have resources.
Sue Anstiss (58:40):
And finally, what can we all do to help support
those ongoing efforts to empowerwomen in Afghanistan through
sport?
And you've talked so eloquentlyabout the power of sport, but
what would your call be for usto do?
Khalida Popal (58:56):
Help us to push the governing bodies of sport to
recognise the teams, the womenwho had the title, who had the
status, and they want to takethe lead.
All we need is to get theplatform.
We are the messengers, thevoices.
All we need is the support ofthe people around in sport to
(59:18):
help us to gain that platformagain, that recognition again
and meaningful recognition.
Not allow any group likeTaliban, to say that women
belong to service or to thekitchen if you'd like to hear
(59:47):
from more extraordinary womenlike Lida.
Sue Anstiss (59:48):
There are over 200 episodes of the game changers
that are free to listen to onall podcast platforms or from
our website at fearlesswomencouk.
My other trailblazing guestshave included elite athletes,
coaches, entrepreneurs,broadcasters, scientists,
journalists and CEOs All womenwho are changing the game in
sport and beyond.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
(01:00:10):
can also find out more about theWomen's Sport Collective, a
free, inclusive community forall women working in sport.
We now have over 10,000 membersacross the world, so please do
come and join us.
The whole of my book Game Onthe Unstoppable Rise of Women's
Sport is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Every episode of Series 13 is mereading a chapter of the book.
(01:00:34):
Thank you once again to SportEngland for backing the Game
Changers and the Women's SportCollective through a National
Lottery Award, and to Sam Walkerat what Goes On Media, who does
such a fabulous job as ourexecutive producer.
Thank you also to my lovelycolleague at Fearless Women,
kate Hannan.
You can find me on social mediaat Sue Anstis and follow the
(01:01:01):
game changers on all podcastplatforms so you don't miss out
on future episodes.
The game changers.
Fearless women in sport.
Hello and welcome to The Game Changers.
I'm Sue Anstiss, and this isthe podcast where you'll hear
from trailblazing women in sportwho are knocking down barriers
and challenging the status quofor women and girls everywhere.
What can we learn from theirjourneys as we explore key
issues around equality in sportand beyond?
I'd like to start with a verybig thank you to our partners,
(00:24):
Sport England, who support TheGame Changers podcast through a
National Lottery award.
My guest today is Khalida Popal, former captain of the
Afghanistan women's nationalfootball team and a pioneering
activist who has dedicated herlife to empowering women through
sports, advocating for genderequality and using football as a
(00:47):
tool for social change.
Khalida was born in Afghanistanand fled Taliban rule with her
family as a young child.
She grew up in a refugee campin Pakistan, where she began
playing football.
When Khalida returned toAfghanistan, she co-founded the
women's football team and becameits first captain.
(01:08):
Sadly, Khalida's advocacy forwomen's rights in sport put her
own life in danger and she wasagain forced to flee Afghanistan
.
Still supporting the women'steam remotely, Khalida settled
in Denmark, where she uncoveredthe sexual abuse of players by
the former President of theAfghanistan Football Federation.
(01:28):
When Kabul fell to the Talibanin 2021, Khalida organised an
international evacuation to saveher teammates and her story is
shared in the stunning newmemoir my Beautiful Sisters.
Today, Khalida is the founderand director of the Girl Power
(01:50):
organisation, a programmemanager for Right to Dream and a
member of the UNHCR Sport forRefugees Coalition.
It's a real privilege to talk toyou, Khalida.
I know I was saying earlierwe've been in many rooms
together but never really satdown and had a proper
(02:11):
conversation, so I'm so lookingforward to this and and kind of
digging more into your storyhaving read your fantastic book.
So, if I can start with thekind of your history and
background, you were born inAfghanistan in an incredibly
progressive and well-educatedextended family.
So your grandfather, I think,was a university professor.
Your grandmother was one of thefirst girls to graduate from
(02:34):
school in Kabul.
Can you tell us more aboutfamily life as you remember it
as a very young child?
Khalida Popal (02:41):
First of all, thank you so much for having me.
It's such a privilege and honor.
It's one of my favoritepodcasts and I love every
episode and I'm still followingwhen I'm in a car driving.
I love to hear that it's aprivilege.
I'm so excited about this.
Back to the question.
I grew up in a male-dominatedcountry, in a war-torn country I
(03:04):
always say that where war hasaffected lives of so many people
, especially when it comes towomen and girls, and it has also
affected my life.
But I always also call myselfas one of the privileged people
because I had a family supportin that country where patriarchy
is dominant.
(03:24):
In a country where patriarchyis dominant where my father and
my grandfather always calledthemselves as feminists it was
the first time I heard from themthe term that they used.
I am a feminist, so they wereminorities with that mindset in
the country.
We have the responsibility inour life.
(03:44):
We have to stand for somethingbigger than ourselves.
Our privilege is our power andwe need to use it for our
community, for the people, andto stand up for each other.
So that's how I learned growingup from my parents and
grandparents.
The country was very difficultwhen it comes to women and girls
(04:05):
, where girl child marriages wasvery famous and popular.
Honor killing was one of partof the culture in giving birth
to girls.
People perceived us assomething bad and taboo and
parents were seen as weak peoplewhen they give birth to a girl
(04:28):
child and a boy child.
Sue Anstiss (04:30):
Why do you feel your grandfather and your father
had such a different attitudeto the other kind of men around
you in society?
Khalida Popal (04:39):
I think it's because of our culture has never
been like that, and so it's thewar that has affected and my
father and grandfather.
They are well-educated people,they are people from the time
that women and men were seen asequal, because the culture in
(04:59):
Afghanistan, the history ofAfghanistan, it wasn't always
like male dominated, it wasn'twar-torn country.
So our core, our foundation,our history was not very
different from the Western world.
If you see the old pictures ofAfghanistan, women and men were
contributing and were active inthe society, equally active in
(05:20):
the society.
But unfortunately, war hastaken everything from us and has
destroyed our culture.
Sue Anstiss (05:29):
It is quite shocking, isn't it?
I think I saw some photosrecently I think it might have
been Iran of women in the 60sand 70s like, dressed as we
would expect Western women to bedressed equally, working and
sharing within community, and Ithink I hadn't.
You almost assume that that'show it has always been, but that
isn't the case.
Khalida Popal (05:48):
No, it's not the case in Afghanistan.
Also, before the war,afghanistan was different, and
when I see the photos from mygrandparents and hear their
stories, they are talking abouta country that I never
recognized because my generationgrew up in war.
So I lost the first year of myschool because of civil war and
(06:13):
I still remember how much I waslooking forward to start my
school.
I was counting my days as youngkids who have the new uniform,
new school bag and they'relooking so much forward to go to
school and start school andhave friends.
But then there was a delay oneyear delay in my education,
because the civil war happenedand our school was used for
(06:35):
internal displaced people, andso we were counting the days
that the war was over and we cango to school.
Sue Anstiss (06:43):
And it was 1996, I think that you and your family
fled the Taliban rule and movedinto a refugee camp in Pakistan.
You were there for four years,so that must have been such a
shocking experience for you as ayoung girl, but also for your
whole family.
So what are your kind ofmemories of that time?
Khalida Popal (07:03):
Our family was in a great danger and the time Our
family was in great danger, thelife of our family was in great
danger because they were veryactive in the previous
government, before the Taliban,and so they were targeted and we
had to leave overnight our homeand flee to Pakistan and to
start from zero.
We couldn't take anything withus.
(07:25):
The only thing that we tookwith us was a blanket, because
it was winter.
And we went to Pakistan and weended up in refugee camp, which
was very difficult.
We lost everything and we lostour childhood in war.
I was on the end of the secondgrade at school that the Taliban
(07:48):
took over, so we were refugeesand so since then I started, I
had to work equally with myeverybody in the family, so I
was taking care of my brotherswhen my parents were out trying
to work and find food for us,were out trying to work and find
food for us, and so orsometimes I was in the shop with
(08:08):
my father and I was working.
So I don't remember my time asa child or as a teenager having
like a normal teenager life.
I don't remember, because thatwar has taken that away from me
and we had to grow up as adults.
We had to be an adult in a veryyoung age and take the
(08:29):
responsibility Losing anidentity and losing community,
losing friends, losing peoplearound you.
That is the case of refugees inso many places around the world
.
Sue Anstiss (08:43):
And was that where your passion and your interest
in football was first sparked,within the refugee camp.
Khalida Popal (08:50):
Yes, our family was always a good supporter of
sports and there was alwayssport around us.
So my mum and dad I used togrow up seeing them playing
badminton with other people, soit was like a social gathering.
Was badminton that was kind ofa game that they used to play or
(09:10):
volleyball, so I used to seethem, but for me it was football
, because football was one ofthe first and very popular game
in Afghanistan.
That's how we used to seestreet sports.
Street football was the main,and when we went to pakistan,
the best thing about footballthat I love so much is is the
(09:33):
game for for all, likeregardless of where you in the
society you are, what status youhave, it's for everybody.
It's the the game for poor andrich, um, and it's just.
All you need to do is.
You don't need a fancyequipment, all you need to do is
, like put stones as goalpoststhat's what how we did and just
(09:54):
have something like even abottle as kind of like a ball,
and then you have a team andthen you play and this it
becomes competitive.
That's how we started usingfootball in the streets in
Pakistan and we found acommunity and it wasn't girls
playing football, it was onlyboys and I was playing with the
(10:14):
boys.
Sue Anstiss (10:15):
And when you returned to Afghanistan, the
Taliban were no longer in power.
But what were the culturalattitudes then to women playing
football, playing sport?
Khalida Popal (10:26):
For eight years.
Women were not allowed to getout of their home during the
Taliban without a company by amale member of the family.
They were not allowed to go toschool, watch TV and be without
burqa.
So they were all from top totoe.
They were covered.
(10:46):
So when the Taliban lost thepower and international allies
came to Afghanistan, still therewas the fear amongst people
that the Taliban returned andyou could still feel the kind of
the smell of the war andoppression in the society.
And eight years is a long timefor a country, a society where
(11:12):
the development was stopped,school was stopped, people
didn't go to school, people wereeven not allowed to and were
punished for watching TV orlistening to radios.
So it affected the culture.
So young girls like myself,when we returned back, we were
teenagers and we grew up in adifferent culture which was a
(11:35):
little bit open than the Afghanculture.
And that's where for us it wasdifficult to be active in the
community because we wereconstantly receiving warnings,
we were harassed because of notwearing hijabs and burqas.
We were part of that countrybut we were not seen as kind of
(11:57):
like the women from that countrybecause of our upbringing,
because the way we were thinkingand because of our education
that we had from being outsideAfghanistan.
But still, all I wanted to dowas to have some in a kind of in
a very negative and toughenvironment.
(12:18):
I wanted to have fun, I wantedto find joy, I wanted to feel
belong to a place, and that wasfootball, because that's what I
knew from playing in a refugeecenter, refugee camps where I
felt the freedom Freedom meaningfreedom of thinking, freedom of
(12:39):
mentally feeling free, becauseit's a lot of pressure when
you're a refugee, when you're ina country where you're
oppressed and everybody isdeciding for you, just based on
your gender, how to walk, how toclean, how to do things, how to
even talk.
(13:01):
As a woman, as a girl, childeverybody is deciding and having
actually a decision over yourlife.
That's part of the culture, andso, for me, football was the,
was creating moments of freedomwhere I was not talking,
thinking about what, how to kindof like walk, how to run, how
to laugh, how to kind of likewalk, how to run, how to laugh,
(13:23):
how to scream, how to yell andhow to lead.
And that was the freedom thatmade me feel, fall in love with
the game, and I found my passionbecause of the freedom I felt
through football, and footballbecome my passion and I was
playing with boys streetfootball again, but this time
(13:47):
was different because I was ateenager.
My body shape changed and ofcourse, there was more pressure
from the society.
People were noticing me and sothe neighbors were putting so
much pressure on my brothers.
They were bullying the boys inmy team for allowing me to play
with them, and I still I wantedto continue.
(14:08):
I didn't want them to win andstop me, but there was a time
that I had to to find a solution, to continue playing football,
but not with the boys.
Sue Anstiss (14:20):
It's incredible, isn't it, that you continued on
in way, despite all that goingon around society and family.
When you think back, why is itthat you think you overcame
those societal pressures?
Because you could easily havejust I'm sure there were many
girls that would have stopped atthat point.
Khalida Popal (14:38):
For me it was.
I keep questioning that.
Why a boy or like my brother,can play sport any sport that
they want, and I can't becauseof being a girl or being a young
woman?
Why I can't?
Why is this?
The society is deciding for me.
(15:00):
It should be my decision aswell.
's what I keep saying.
If I allow my neighbor to takedecision for me, they will
continue doing that over my allmy life, and I'm not a slave and
I'm I'm part of the society Iam.
I have equal rights to mybrother or the boys in the team.
If they take the decision toplay and continue playing
(15:22):
football, I should have the samerights and I will not allow the
people to decide for me.
I will fight for it and I willfight for my right.
And that was in the beginning.
It was about me.
It was about my right and Ididn't think about the whole
picture, about the women in thesociety.
It was about my right and thepassion was threatened to be
(15:44):
taken away, the freedom that Iwas feeling.
So I continued.
One of the funny things I didwas like giving up is not an
option for me and I never wantthat option.
So I continued finding a teamand I went undercover and I
played in a boys team pretendingthat I'm a boy and only the
(16:05):
coach knew.
So, coach, he was such afantastic person he was he told
me that I will allow you untiluntil, like, they recognize and
discover that you are a girl,and the minute that they do that
, then you will stop coming tomy team, because then it we will
face the challenge.
And I went undercover.
I went, I wore extrasizedjerseys, I had the hat on me and
(16:31):
then a cup, so I was hiding myhair and I was playing and I was
also pretending that I am deafand I can't talk and hear.
Difficult for me.
I'm so loud, I love to take alead, I want to show myself and
I want to ask for a ball.
(16:51):
But to be able to continueplaying football, I had to.
For a while I had to be silentand I play silent football.
But it didn't take a long timethat some of the boys were
curious about who I am and theystarted following me.
They found out that I'm goingto girls' school and they
discovered that I'm a girl.
So I stopped playing with theboys and then I said okay, what
(17:15):
is it that I can do.
Maybe there are more girls likeme who love to play football
and because of these culturalbarriers, I will go and find my
own team and that's how Istarted going to my own school
and started recruiting girls.
Find my own team and that's howI started going to my own
school and started a campaign,started recruiting girls from my
own school, from differentclasses, and in here my mom was
(17:37):
my biggest supporter because shewas my PE teacher and she had
access to the equipment to thestudents.
I started recruiting girls intofootball and for me that time
was that okay.
Now I have a team.
We started from only two peopleand then it continued having
more girls into football and Iwanted the girls to enjoy the
(18:01):
freedom, the freedom that I feltand experienced.
I wanted them to experiencethat.
So it was nothing fancyfootball, it was putting our
school bags having somethinground like a ball.
And then later on, we found amagic ball.
We call it a magic ball.
The black and white color,beautiful football that we
(18:25):
played.
We called that as a magic ball.
The reason we call that as amagic ball.
The reason we call that as amagic ball because of the, the
fun and the joy that footballbrings.
The minute the ball startsrolling, you have the joy and
yeah, and it brings a smile inyour face and that's the.
That's what we love so muchabout football.
And so the number of the girlsgrew in our team, so we had two
(18:47):
teams in in one school.
For me in that time it was moreof like okay, we found, we
found our team, we have ourspace and and and that's it, we
will play until like um, it wasa turning moment that for us,
that it changed from passion topurpose when our team was
(19:09):
attacked by a group of men fromoutside the school and they had
the knife and destroyed thatmagic ball and told us that
women cannot walk properly, howthey can play football.
Football is man's game.
Women belong to the kitchen.
You have to learn how to cookand clean and serve your future
(19:33):
husband and you should not playsport.
It's against the honor of thefamily, it's against the honor
of the country.
And they started yelling at usand insulting us.
And that was a turning momentfor me where I felt and I
(19:53):
experienced there is a biggerchallenge for us waiting there
in the society than just ustrying to play football and for
me, it was that moment that Isaid football is going to be my
tool and my voice is going to bemy strong tool to be the voice
for our sisters and I willcontinue the campaign.
(20:14):
And that is the movementthrough.
Football started in Afghanistanand it went from my school to
different schools.
We had an official league andthen later on, we really managed
to get some.
We tried so hard to get afootball federation on board.
It sounds like easy, but it wasdifficult to get the
(20:36):
afghanistan football federationon board to recognize our league
and and and help us to to finda and establish our first
women's national team and makehistory, which we did.
Sue Anstiss (20:51):
It was fantastic, and how did that feel at that
time to be representing yourcountry on the field, hearing
the national anthem.
I mean especially havingovercome all you had to get to
be in that place.
Khalida Popal (21:05):
When the entire country tells you you can't and
and you face so many barriers,so many challenges and it's
constant and continuous umpressure, insults and and danger
and risks that you're you face.
And then you prove it and youstand together as a team and you
(21:26):
make history.
When everybody said you can't,and you made it there and the
jerseys that we wore it was notgiven.
We really earned that, wereally fought for that, and so
the badge on our chest was thevictory.
Already, even we were standingon the pitch, it wasn't like the
(21:48):
game wasn't even started.
We felt some sort of victoryand it was beyond football.
It was nothing about football,it was beyond football and it
was a group of women who proventhat we can when we become as a
unit and we believe in ourpurpose and our journey.
(22:10):
And when the national anthemwas played for the first time,
that was so emotional moment forus we started crying.
We started crying because itwas a confirmation of our
victory, that we made the firststep, and of course, there is
(22:30):
still challenges, but we won.
It was daring, the youngergirls, the generation, the new
generation that we made it, it'spossible and you can continue,
and that was the best andbeautiful moment for us.
Sue Anstiss (22:45):
And was the support for you then, as this team came
together, in terms of fans, butalso financial support from the
Federation.
Khalida Popal (22:55):
It was so difficult Like this story.
Maybe so many people around theworld who play women's football
.
They resonate with this,because you get little support
and you have to just keep quietand you appreciate and you just
don't complain because, yes,because you will not complain
and be always grateful.
Yes, just be grateful.
So when our women's nationalteam was founded and we were
(23:20):
practicing for a tournament toum to represent afghanistan
abroad, we were given thetainest cord, half of the
tainest cord.
Even they didn't bother to takeaway the nets and they were not
allowing us to take the tainestnets away and that is a full
(23:41):
squat training on half of thetainest cord.
This is how it shows that, how,when we reflect back, it was
actually we were set to failbecause we were told by the
Afghanistan Football Federationthat you will bring
embarrassment to the country.
How dare you thought that womencan actually represent
Afghanistan.
So it took us a long time inthe whole negotiation but we
(24:04):
were like not complaining, evenhaving that half of the tennis
court.
We were like not complaining,even having that half of the
tennis court.
We were not complaining, wewere grateful.
We were trying to stay quietand just kind of be grateful for
what we have and and reallythink about our bigger purpose
and and our mission and ourwhole movement for our sisters
in af.
(24:25):
So there was no budget.
Our jerseys that were given wasso bad that when we started our
first game it was ripped apartor the numbers were kind of
fading.
Uniform is so much actuallyaffecting on your
self-confidence as an athleteand sometimes people
(24:48):
underestimate that when you havea good uniform and it looks
more professional, you look moreprofessional.
It actually affects yourself-confidence.
The football boots that weregiven to us they didn't give us
that football boots before inthe training, just before the
game starts, they give us thefootball boots and they said,
(25:11):
like you need to fit your yourfeet in the boot.
So it's not that we, we don'thave other options, so you need
to just fit your shoe, your feetand that.
So I remember I had my toesjust kind of like really it was
one size smaller and I had mytoes like really in right, I was
really trying to fit my feet inthat and that destroyed us and
(25:34):
it was like we all had bruisesall over and we still we were
saying nothing, we were gratefuland we were not complaining
because we didn't want that tobecome a barrier for Football
Federation to stop us fromplaying football and we played
several games.
It was an unofficial tournamentin Pakistan and we had to figure
(25:57):
out how to actually play in abig, standard size pitch.
And it was funny the goalpostwas too big for us and we were
saying, oh my God, is it goingto be the standard size of the
goal?
And the whole football stadiumwas standard.
It was a beautiful stadium,beautiful football pitch and
(26:18):
real football pitch.
Everything felt real and so bigand scary.
But we as a team had to figureout how to really work together
to learn how to play, how toactually run on that football
pitch and how to actually saveour goal.
It was nothing professional,honestly nothing professional.
(26:41):
We had to figure out becausethe coach that was given to us,
he was worried for a whole listthat his wife and his
mother-in-law give him to doshopping from Pakistan and he
was all the time talking aboutthe shopping list of all the
(27:01):
things that he had to buy and hewas worried and he was stressed
about it and he was not talkingabout football game, about our
formation, about anything.
And we had to figure outourselves, how to actually stand
together, how to form our team,where to actually which post we
should stand.
That's how we have actuallytried to come together as a team
(27:23):
.
But then we managed to, tolearn how to win and score the
goals and in we had fans therewatching us and and that's where
, first time, we had one of thenational tvs broadcasted our
game and some of the familiesthat were not aware that we are
(27:45):
playing football, they found outfrom TV the national TVs that
there is a women's teamrepresenting Afghanistan and
some of their daughters wereplaying, because some of our
players went undercover and theydidn't tell their families and
it was secret.
But it was no more secret forthe nation that there is a
(28:06):
national team, there's a women'steam representing Afghanistan.
Sue Anstiss (28:10):
And you went on, didn't you?
To work at the AfghanistanFootball Federation.
You're the first woman to workthere, so firstly in a finance
role and then as head of theWomen's Football Committee and
Director of Women's Football,and things, I think started well
, so there were moreopportunities for other women
too.
Were you hopeful at that timethat there might be real change
(28:31):
at the top of the sport?
Khalida Popal (28:32):
um, it's funny the way kind of like the whole
negotiations happened, like my,my role in Afghanistan Football
Federation, but also even the,the fact that Football
Federation got on boardrecognizing women's football and
allowing.
So the first negotiation, withrecognizing our league and
allowing us to have a nationalteam, was my negotiation with
(28:56):
Afghanistan Football Federationand that was it wasn't about
women empowerment.
It doesn't work in thecountries like Afghanistan when
you it's the whole negotiation,the whole, like the whole
conversation.
When it's about women,inclusion of women, if you go as
a feminist activist mindset,you will lose.
(29:16):
So you have to figure out thelanguage of how they can
actually allow you to get onboard.
And that was the money.
So we say that you get thebudget, you get the money, you
get all the recognition, all thecredit, we will work, we'll
find out our budget, we'll findall the kind of the funds,
(29:37):
everything from outside.
You, as Football Federation,get all the credit, all the
budget, and that is how we wonthe first negotiation that
Football Federation was on board.
And that is how we won thefirst negotiation that Football
Federation was on board.
The second negotiation, thesecond part, that they allowed,
(29:59):
they accepted me to work as thefirst woman in their history was
the fact that AfghanistanFootball Federation and it's a
funny story, no-transcript hecame up with an idea that it
(30:22):
should be a woman and it shouldbe a young woman who will not
have the courage that's hisdefinition will not have the
courage and guts to steal themoney and end up in corruption.
And for me, because I wasreally fighting for a long time
to have the voice of women indecision making and the
(30:43):
federation where they takedecision for us, so it was a
great opportunity.
I was like I don't care what isthe definition, what is the
kind of the whole idea abouthaving a woman in Afghanistan
Football Federation.
This is the best time for me,because I know what is my goal,
what is my purpose and I will gofor it.
And so I really went there andI had the negotiation.
(31:06):
I was, like having theconversation there, like with
the Afghanistan FootballFederation's president, that I
don't have the guts, I don'thave the courage to steal money,
I don't have the power to evenlike, do anything and skip from
the country.
So don don't worry, your moneyis going to be saved and I'll
assure that, like, everythingwill be according to what you're
(31:27):
kind of trying to plan and whatthe finances to get him on
board.
And that is how I entered theAfghanistan Football Federation
and then I was fighting so hardto get into Afghanistan Football
Federation's women's footballdepartment and to lead the
women's football, and so then Igot two positions head of
(31:52):
women's football and the head offinance.
And then I was elected in theboard, where I was the only
woman in the board and of courseI faced insults and they were
bullying.
They were yeah, they weremocking me, but I knew what is
(32:12):
my purpose and why I am there,and it was because of our women,
our team, our future and thevoices of us.
Sue Anstiss (32:23):
And just to be clear, because it did surprise
me, I think, as I kind ofdiscovered more, the people
leading sports organisations inAfghanistan aren't just general
sports administrators like wemight see in the UK or elsewhere
in the world, but they're oftengovernors or generals in the
military or men working with theTaliban who were given these
additional positions in sport asas part of their job roles.
(32:46):
And I think it was as you beganto talk more openly about the
misuse of power and and how itwas impacting women and girls is
.
Is that where it became anissue for you in terms of your
questioning that corruption andauthority within sport?
Khalida Popal (33:00):
yeah, it's unfortunate because the most
powerful men in the in thecountry who are very much
involved in in government, inmilitary or in war, some of the
warlords, that's how it's calledthey have the position and they
are the, the people with highinfluence that have these
(33:21):
positions in sport.
So when you, for example, go toa federation in the Western
world, what you see is moresports, kids, anything related
to sport.
But in Afghanistan and severalcountries like Afghanistan, the
first thing you see entering thesports arena is the gun, the
bodyguards and all the militaryequipments and that is scary.
(33:44):
That is scary and that'sdangerous.
And so you can see that howdifficult and dangerous and
brave was for women to decide towork there.
But for me, playing forAfghanistan Women's National
Team, making history and kind oflike working in Afghanistan
Football Federation, was notenough.
I wanted to use my platformbecause as an athlete, when you
(34:08):
get in like certain status andit comes with power, it is a
responsibility.
With power, you haveresponsibility.
How do you use that?
So my power was my platform,because I was more recognized in
the country.
I got the platform, I got thepower and I felt responsible
(34:30):
towards my community, towardsthe people, and my platform was
strong calling the governmentand calling people to question
the leadership in sport and whois leading sport and how the
corruption and abuse of poweraffects the participation of
(34:52):
women in the society and insport.
So I started questioning those.
I started openly talking aboutthose, which was direct call to
people in a sport that wasinvolved, and that's where I
received that threat.
I was threatened directly froma very powerful man in the
(35:13):
government.
Unfortunately, my family wasattacked several times and
physically attacked.
It came to a time that was toodangerous for me to stay in the
country because several timesthere were attempts towards my
life.
It became too political, so myvoice became stronger.
(35:38):
The stronger my voice was, themore I was losing the freedom,
so I was not able to go aloneoutside.
I continuously had the threatsin my family.
I was losing the freedom.
I didn't have really time totake a decision, but there was
(35:59):
one question in my head that ifthey shot me?
But there was one question inmy head that if they shot me,
there won't be any girl who willdream and dare to actually
continue.
If, in one way or another way,I inspired them to take the lead
and to stand for themselves.
I want to save my voice forthat girl to continue.
So that was the moment that Ihad to skip to survive.
Sue Anstiss (36:26):
And it was incredibly moving in the book to
hear about that journey in yoursearch for asylum into Pakistan
, to India, then on toScandinavia, as you kind of
sought that, a safe place to be,as you say, and retain your
voice too.
How did you deal with that fearand the uncertainty of that
journey and losing your sense ofidentity as a refugee?
Khalida Popal (36:48):
It was so difficult.
It was never an idea of likethe whole movement I started.
My idea was never to leave mycountry, never leave the people
to seek asylum or go abroad.
But that happened and I didn'teven have the time to say
goodbye to my loved ones.
I left the country to be alive,and it's a natural human act,
(37:14):
kind of like going through astressful situation, anxiety,
living underground.
How stressed I was that I hadnightmares.
There was time that I couldn'tsleep.
I had to turn on all the lightsto make sure there is not even
a dark spot in the room, becauseI had the nightmares that there
is a man standing there tryingto shot me with or kill me with
(37:37):
a knife, or standing with aknife.
Those were the things that Iwas dreaming about and I stopped
like there was a time that Iwas too scared to fall asleep
because of those nightmares.
So I was going through that andso, like I ended up in refugee
centers in Scandinavia, norwayand Denmark.
Life was so different anddifficult.
(37:58):
Yes, I had the safety.
I had the shelter to live.
I had food on the table, whichI'm grateful for.
I never complained about that,of course.
I had the safety and theshelter to continue life.
But as a refugee, as people thatyou leave your country, your
home, you lose the identity andthat is one of the horrible
(38:20):
things that happened to humanbeings.
You were someone and all of asudden you're nobody.
The identity, and that is oneof the horrible things that
happen to human being.
You are someone and all of asudden you're nobody.
And there is an id card and atthe refugee center that they
give you what?
The number, and you areidentified by a number, even not
your name, and then you'rewaiting for unknown situation,
unknown decision for someone totake a decision about you, for
(38:40):
you and for your future.
And you have to go through asystem that re-traumatizing you
continuously.
Because this is the process andyou are investigated.
You are kind of sitting as acriminal and there is an
immigration officer or policecontinuously asking you several
questions why you?
Why you left your country, whyyou?
(39:01):
What will happen?
That if you return back, it'skind of re-traumatizing you,
re-traumatizing you, and evenliving in the refugee center
which is close to a militaryoperations, like you see all the
the war, kind of like it's oldcompound of military and army,
(39:22):
so you're actually living intrauma that they will not allow
you to get out.
But then also the narrative isthreatened by some not so well
and good responsible media,right.
So it's the politician isfighting, and that's the
different thing that Iexperienced the politicians to
win the vote, it's the moreweight on immigration, how to
(39:46):
make the immigration difficultfor people, for immigrants, and
they become popular Just forwinning the votes.
They're writing narratives aboutour life without even us having
the opportunity to actuallytell our story from our side of
story, and that is also verydifficult when you're seeing
(40:09):
everything against you.
You are escaping from thesituation in your country that
you didn't want to, and nowyou're in a country that
everything is against and youhave to prove and prove yourself
, and there is no time for youto take a pause and reflect what
happened to your life, who youlost in.
You don't have the time.
You have to prove yourself thatyou're not stealing someone's
(40:30):
job, you're not stealingsomeone's money, you're.
You're a good immigrant, you'reintegrated, and integration is
most of the time on us.
It's like so much weight thatwe have to find a way to
integrate and that is for ahuman being.
It's too much to go through andthat's what I experienced
(40:52):
living as a refugee in refugeecentres.
But one thing that helped mewas football.
Sue Anstiss (40:58):
And how is life in Denmark today?
So have you been able to findthat community?
Khalida Popal (41:06):
What helped me was coaching football to women
in the refugee centers, becauseall I knew was they took away
everything from me inAfghanistan.
But what I didn't lose was mypurpose in life, and that is to
empower others to help andsupport others.
And that is my purpose in life,and that is to empower others
to help and support others.
And that is my purpose in lifeand that helped me and and keep
(41:28):
me alive and moving andmotivated me.
So I started coaching andrefugee centers, women to
overcome together, to overcomethe stressful situation, the
trauma and in anxiety anddepression that we were going
through.
When I got permission to stayin Denmark, I founded Girl Power
Organization and I startedbuilding community of women and
(41:51):
girls, especially with a specialfocus on marginalized community
, creating education andsporting opportunity, but also
building bridges between twocommunities and taking actually
the leadership in changing thenarrative.
For me, the way my mindset works, the way I function in life, is
(42:14):
that when I see challenge, Ithink about solution.
If we are part of the challengeand we are seen as our
community is seen as challenge,it's also a responsibility as a
community to find solutions, tosay that this is also possible
and you can see how we arecontributing positively in the
society as refugee people mark.
(42:45):
We started um, providingactivities and connecting women
and girls into sport, but alsocreating uh.
We started creating pathways tojob and and also sports for
women and also what our mainfocus was to help women to
actually tell their stories andown their narratives and then
expanded to around uh europe andin the UK.
We have recently it's a yearnow that we are expanded our
(43:10):
activities in the UK, in SouthYorkshire, providing sporting
and education activities forwomen and girls there, and we
have been outside Europe, inAfrica and Middle East, and we
have been connecting women fromaround the world and that's how
I expanded my community.
Sue Anstiss (43:26):
Brilliant, is that the mainstay of activity that
you're doing day to day nowwithin the organization?
Khalida Popal (43:31):
Yes, it's like it's my full time now.
Focus and beside that, I'm alsoworking with Write a Dream,
which one of the programs I'mleading is purpose
entrepreneurship.
Sue Anstiss (43:44):
it's social entrepreneurship program and
you've still been connected withthe afghanistan women's team
since you left the country.
So, yeah, you work with suzyrag from the guardian, who was
obviously another extraordinaryguest on the podcast who exposed
the sexual abuse by the formerpresident of the af Football
Federation which led to thisglobal impact across the sport,
(44:07):
and I know you've been such avery vocal activist around the
safety for women there.
Do you worry about your ownsafety now still, as you're
talking out on these issues?
Khalida Popal (44:17):
No, I don't want that kind of like to take away
from my motivation to do more.
I never stopped when I leftAfghanistan, never stopped
giving back and supporting thewomen of Afghanistan.
I never stopped, even living inthe refugee camp.
I continued supporting andcontinued being in contact with
Afghanistan Football Federation,with Afghanistan Women's
(44:39):
National Team and the grassrootsfootball through my
organization in Afghanistan.
And so one of the major casesin football was against sexual
abuse and harassment that wasled by the former president of
Afghanistan Football Federation.
They sent some people outsidemy door in Denmark to just show
(45:01):
their power, outside my door inDenmark, to just show their
power to threaten me to kind ofstop me for what I'm doing.
I feel safe in Denmark.
I don't want to think about mylife being taken away and I
remember from what KayleighLindsay, one of the greatest
(45:23):
people and one of the greatestleaders that I admire so much
and I see as my role model whatshe said that someone has to
take the bullet, and that's theextreme way I'm saying it.
Someone has to take the leadand sacrifice, so then the
others can benefit in thesociety.
And someone did for me, and thereason I'm here is because
(45:46):
someone else was before me andthat took that fight and I'm
grateful for all those amazingwomen and girls and men who
believed in the equity andequality.
He really fought hard and thereason I'm here because of them
I'm not the first one and I'mnot the first one and I'm not
going to be the last one isbecause of all those women,
(46:08):
amazing women that I admire andthey started, they opened the
doors of opportunity, they toldus this is possible and because
of them I'm here and I amcontinuing that.
I'm sure that there will benext generations who will see it
through my journey and continuethis, the good fight for
inclusion and equity, and I willcontinue doing that.
(46:30):
And if, in this fight,something happens to me, I
wouldn't regret and I wouldn'tworry because it's worth it.
It's everything I've done in mylife and things that I lost.
It was worth all worth for thisfight you mentioned the
magnificent kelly lindsey.
Sue Anstiss (46:52):
I completely agree with you.
You know that kind of wildpraise for her and and she was
part of that group of her andkat craig and organizations like
fif, fifa Pro that cametogether to help you to get some
of the players out whenAfghanistan fell to the Taliban
again in 2021.
And those female footballerswere in danger for their lives
(47:15):
and so it was necessary to helpthem escape the country.
Were you surprised at the timehow people did unite together to
make that happen?
Khalida Popal (47:24):
This is the beauty of football and beauty of
a sport the amazing network ofhow a sport and football can
actually impact lives of people,and great network and richness
and resources that it has.
I remember writing on socialmedia of asking people I didn't
(47:44):
know, like I have, of course, Ihave a great network of people.
Sometimes, when you have agreat network, you don't know
who to reach to.
I remember the post that I madeand and also the people who
reached out um Jonas from FIFPro, for example, the first one who
reached out to, and, and myfriends and everybody from my
network reached out and said howcan we help you to get the
(48:05):
girls out?
And that was kind of like thecall to action, call to save the
players' lives, because thefoundation of Afghanistan
Women's National Team was builton activism and these players
were recognized and they werejust by themselves.
They called Taliban as theirenemies and they stood up
against the ideology of Talibanand amazing individuals from
(48:28):
around the world, from Australiato Canada to the US, from UK to
(48:49):
Europe.
Everybody joined a collectivegroup where we were working
constantly, like without a stop.
We were working to lobby thegovernments, to get the
governments on board, to savethe players and their lives and,
of course, they saved theirlives.
We were playing our role tofacilitate that journey, that
(49:12):
escape for them and, as a resultof like a collective action, by
now more than 600 women andgirls with their families are
saved and they're outsideAfghanistan.
They are playing football,they're advocating, they're
studying, and every time Itravel to these areas for
(49:33):
example, the senior women'snational team is evacuated in
Australia, the junior women'steam is in Germany and Portugal,
in the UK and also in the USand some other countries.
Whenever I travel and meet themand we do programs together and
I see them kicking the ball,chasing their dreams and having
(49:56):
the freedom, chasing theirdreams and having the freedom.
We couldn't save all the womenfrom the country, but the women
who managed to get out andescape and they are chasing
their dreams.
That is the most beautiful andpowerful thing and I am so
grateful for every individualwho listened, who joined and who
saved these lives and have theybeen able to play for
(50:19):
Afghanistan as refugees, as arefugee team?
Unfortunately, since theevacuation, they lost their
status.
Based on the FIFA rules, it'sonly the member association who
can recognize a team, but themember association is now
governed and controlled byTaliban.
(50:41):
And Taliban put ban oneducation and sport, full ban
for women and girls.
Women are not even allowed togo in only women gym.
So sport is not seen assomething good for women
according to Taliban.
So we cannot wait for a memberassociation who is controlled by
(51:04):
Taliban to recognize a women'snational team and give a list to
FIFA.
So what we have been doing fromit's three and a half years now.
We have been advocating, we havebeen campaigning and I've been
leading this campaign to get therecognition, get FIFA on board
to find solution and worktogether with us by excluding
(51:27):
the Federation of Afghanistan,who is run and led by Taliban,
and work together with us tofind solution, to give our women
the right to represent thewomen of Afghanistan, Because
this team was built on thisfoundation of activism, being
the voice for our sisters.
(51:48):
Today we need our platform tobe the voice for our sisters who
lost the right.
They are an open present by thename of Afghanistan, so we want
to represent that and ourplayers are being active, they
are advocating and they arecontinuously playing football
and I'm sure, and I'm certainthat FIFA will get on board and
(52:12):
I'm hoping that Sarai Bahman,who is head of women's football,
who knows the struggle of women, Sarai Bahman, who is head of
women's football, who know thestruggle of women, who will gate
on board and who will worktogether with us to find
solutions where our women canrepresent the women of
Afghanistan.
Sue Anstiss (52:27):
And we've seen the same in cricket as well.
At the moment, haven't we Withthe women that left Afghanistan,
the cricketers who are not ableto play for the country, still
not recognised because the ICCdon't allow it?
Anyway, it just frustrates me,I guess, as an outsider watching
it happen, it seems likenothing is changing.
It's not changing fast enough.
(52:47):
But is it around the powerimbalance?
Is it around funding?
Why do you think these thingsthat feel like it's such an
obvious distribution of funding?
Because in some cases, themoney is still going into the
Football Federation for thefemale team, but it's not
reaching anybody, it's not beingutilised.
Khalida Popal (53:04):
Yeah, there is no confirmation where actually the
fund is going and it's actuallyany fund gone for the women's,
because 2021, since then, thewomen's football department is
dismissed, so we don't have anyconfirmation yet if there is any
fund win there, because that isalso a question.
The other thing is that thereis a violation of human right in
(53:27):
sport.
It's a gender discrimination,it's a black and white gender
discrimination in a sport, andthat's where we need governing
bodies of sport to take a standand stand by their own status,
because that is what theirstatus say, right.
So, and they haven't beenactive and fast enough to react
(53:47):
to that and I understand thecomplex situation of Afghanistan
we are not actually, especiallyin regards to our football team
.
They're not actually advocatingto remove the men's team.
What we want to say is it'syour problem If you want to kind
of stop men's football, it'syour problem.
What we want is to findsolutions for us that we have
the right to represent, becausethe whole movement started by
(54:10):
women for women in Afghanistan.
We sacrificed our lives.
We have lost so many lives inour families, in our team, to
gain that platform.
It shouldn't be shut down by agroup of men who thinks that
women belong to the kitchen andwomen should be servant.
We want the sport governingbodies to stand there and show
(54:32):
the leadership and say womenbelong to everywhere.
That's what we have beenadvocating, that's what we have
been pushing, and I will notgive up.
I'll continue pushing thegoverning bodies of sport to
stand by their own status and totake decision, to show where
they are standing.
Are they standing by beingsilent, supporting Taliban, or
(54:55):
they are standing with the women?
Who wants to take the lead, whowants to, who have sacrificed
so much?
They should stand by everythingthat.
What they are putting in theirbooks, it's gender
discrimination is three and ahalf year, almost four years,
and we don't, we haven't seenany action by the, by sporting
uh bodies.
That's what we are trying toadvocate for and hopefully we
(55:18):
will get somewhere.
Sue Anstiss (55:22):
And it's hard to comprehend, isn't it what's
happening to women inAfghanistan right now in terms
of their being completelyremoved from society, in terms
of they can't study or work orbe heard in any way.
I mean, it's heartbreaking frompeople that aren't even in the
country, don't have a historywith the country, but it must be
so heartbreaking for you,especially after all you've done
(55:43):
in the last 20 years.
So how do you manage to retainthat hope for the future?
Because clearly you have thatin talking to you, you do have
that, but how do you maintainthat?
Khalida Popal (55:54):
It is just being honest.
It is tough.
It is difficult, it's tiring.
This is not my full-time job.
I don't get for my bills to bepaid.
It's just a pure advocacy baseand I have not given up.
Since the day I started playingfootball I've not given up.
And in the case of Afghanistanwomen's national team, in every
(56:16):
campaign that we have had it hasbeen a tough one mentally,
physically, emotionally.
It's tiring in so many levels.
But what keeps me motivated isthe young girls.
When I meet them it'scontinuous that I am mentoring
and supporting them through myorganization or through personal
(56:37):
support.
When I still see the hope, thenit makes me feel motivated to
continue the advocacy.
But at the same time, there areso many girls in Afghanistan.
I am continuously receivingmessages from young girls in
Afghanistan to help them, tofind a way to get them out of
(57:00):
that prison.
And it's tiring, it's so toughone.
So what we are trying to do aswomen of Afghanistan from
outside is to show them that wehave not given up on you.
Do not lose hope.
We are sending, we are tryingto kind of use any opportunity
we have to tell them that we arethere, we see you, we hear you.
(57:23):
We are here, your voices, andwe feel responsible because the
world has forgotten aboutAfghanistan.
It's kind of like yesterday'snews.
The world moved on to so manyother conflicts, many other
conflicts, but we arecontinuously supporting the
women of Afghanistan to not giveup.
We are the voices.
We are using our platform asfootball.
(57:44):
We are using football tocontinue that advocacy, but, at
the same time, we are trying toalso tell the sporting world,
and, in our case, football, thatwhat is happening in the world
is crazy.
The conflicts and, afterconflicts, the climate changes,
will have so many challenges andit's unfortunate, but this is
(58:04):
real.
It will come more challenges.
Where is the solution?
Are they prepared or not?
Why take four years, five years, for them to take a decision?
They need to act fast.
Afghanistan is one of theexample, and it was the example
back then, in 2018, when westarted the sexual abuse case.
There was no system in place toactually find solutions for the
(58:27):
victims and survivors of sexualabuse, and now it has changed.
Of course, more people gotinvolved.
The policies change, thesystems change, but they need to
act because they have power,they have resources.
Sue Anstiss (58:40):
And finally, what can we all do to help support
those ongoing efforts to empowerwomen in Afghanistan through
sport?
And you've talked so eloquentlyabout the power of sport, but
what would your call be for usto do?
Khalida Popal (58:56):
Help us to push the governing bodies of sport to
recognise the teams, the womenwho had the title, who had the
status, and they want to takethe lead.
All we need is to get theplatform.
We are the messengers, thevoices.
All we need is the support ofthe people around in sport to
(59:18):
help us to gain that platformagain, that recognition again
and meaningful recognition.
Not allow any group likeTaliban, to say that women
belong to service or to thekitchen if you'd like to hear
(59:47):
from more extraordinary womenlike Lida.
Sue Anstiss (59:48):
There are over 200 episodes of the game changers
that are free to listen to onall podcast platforms or from
our website at fearlesswomencouk.
My other trailblazing guestshave included elite athletes,
coaches, entrepreneurs,broadcasters, scientists,
journalists and CEOs All womenwho are changing the game in
sport and beyond.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
(01:00:10):
can also find out more about theWomen's Sport Collective, a
free, inclusive community forall women working in sport.
We now have over 10,000 membersacross the world, so please do
come and join us.
The whole of my book Game Onthe Unstoppable Rise of Women's
Sport is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Every episode of Series 13 is mereading a chapter of the book.
(01:00:34):
Thank you once again to SportEngland for backing the Game
Changers and the Women's SportCollective through a National
Lottery Award, and to Sam Walkerat what Goes On Media, who does
such a fabulous job as ourexecutive producer.
Thank you also to my lovelycolleague at Fearless Women,
kate Hannan.
You can find me on social mediaat Sue Anstis and follow the
(01:01:01):
game changers on all podcastplatforms so you don't miss out
on future episodes.
The game changers.
Fearless women in sport.
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