Lucy Horsell: Leading the Way in Women’s Sportswear

Lucy Horsell is a woman on a mission to empower female athletes at all levels as the co-founder of PeBe Sports Bras, a company that is transforming the sports bra market. 

This episode tracks Lucy’s journey from losing her way in formal education at school to becoming a successful entrepreneur.

With a passion for education, science and product, Lucy's journey to merge these worlds into one innovative venture was kickstarted after seeing firsthand the challenges schoolgirls face when it comes to sports kits. 

Equipped with a background in product development, Lucy is driven by an ambition to establish the sports bra as a functional and critical piece of kit.

Lucy talks so articulately about the importance of body literacy and self-care, especially in relation to breast health, as we explore the often-overlooked importance of proper sports bras for young women, the impact of breast size on participation in sport, and the need for better representation and understanding of women's needs in sportswear. 

With a background in investment banking, Lucy understands the world of funding and growth and she shares the huge challenges still facing women-led businesses.

We also discuss the importance of collaboration amongst women entrepreneurs as they support each other in a competitive landscape.

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

Episode Transcript

Sue Anstiss (00:03):
Hello and welcome to The Game Changers.
I'm Sue Anstiss, and this isthe podcast where you'll hear
from trailblazing women in sportwho are knocking down barriers
and challenging the status quofor women and girls everywhere.
What can we learn from theirjourneys as we explore key
issues around equality in sportand beyond?
I'd like to start with a big,big thank you to our partners,

(00:25):
Sport England, who support TheGame Changers through a National
Lottery Award.
I'm excited to say that in this, the 18th series of The Game
Changers, I'll be talking tofounders and entrepreneurs the
women who have set uporganisations that help change
the landscape for all women andgirls in sport.

(00:47):
My guest today is Lucy Horsell,the co-founder of PEBE Sports
Bra, a company that istransforming the sports bra
market, with With a passion foreducation, science and product.
Lucy's journey to merge theseworlds into one innovative
venture was kick-started afterseeing first-hand the challenges
schoolgirls face when it comesto sports kits.

(01:07):
Equipped with a background inproduct development, Lucy is
driven by a mission to empowerfemale athletes at all levels
and establish the sports bra asa functional and critical piece
of kit.
So, Lucy, you shared a LinkedInpost recently about the

(01:29):
experience of heading back toyour old school.
You were there to talk aboutyour career path and also to do
some bra fitting, so I wonderwhat was that experience like,
going back to your school?

Lucy Horsell (01:39):
I felt old as a start, as I was fitting bras
onto girls who asked me whatyear I'd left school, which I
said was 2009.
And they said, oh, that's theyear we were born.
I was fitting them sports brasthat they absolutely needed and
I thought, wow, I feel ancient.
But you know what?
It was pretty wild because Isort of fell out of school.

(02:00):
If I'm honest with you, Ididn't have like, I loved school
, I loved sport and I had somewicked friends at school and up
until GCSEs I was pretty strongminded about my education and I
got really, really derailed sortof through my last few years of
school and left school with noability to go to university.
I didn't have any A-levels.
I really wanted to get into theworld of work and I kind of

(02:22):
wanted to get away, get awayfrom where I grew up so I had a

(02:53):
higgled-piggley journey,championing what I'm doing and
be super supportive of that.
It felt, honestly, it feltincredible.
I really it was really fun togo back.
I really enjoyed it and we werepresenting in a in the room
where I sat my A-levels.
So you know, it's always in thebig sports hall, isn't it?
And I swear to God, I stillfeel sick when I walk into those
rooms, I still remember thefeelings.
So, yeah, it was wonderful, Ireally enjoyed it.

Sue Anstiss (03:18):
And when you were at school did you ever envisage
you might become anentrepreneur or run your own
businesses?
Was that an ambition that youhad as a school girl, or was it
a university path you thoughtyou would follow?

Lucy Horsell (03:28):
Up until 16,.
Yes, like to be honest with you, I always wanted to be a doctor
and I, you know I was able todo it.
I, just, as I said, lost my waya bit in my A-levels and I
think I wasn't I wasn't thatmotivated by learning.
I think in my last couple ofyears at school I was heavily
motivated by business andearning money.
I loved it.
I think I've always been quitea passionate person and I think

(03:51):
I needed to find something I waspassionate about.
And when I was at school we hada program called Young
Enterprise.
I don't know if you've comeacross Young Enterprise.
I actually volunteer for YoungEnterprise now and I work as a
business mentor for them andYoung Enterprise gives sixth
formers the opportunity to setup and create their own business
and run it for a yearthroughout the school year.
I joined that program and it'sfunny because I look back on

(04:14):
doing that when I was sort of 17, 18.
And my role in our team was thesales director and I think I've
always been heavily driven bythe commercial side of business
and you know, winning customers,pitching, presenting and
getting people fired up aboutwhat we do, and we used to stand
on the stand at parents' daysflogging out what was a calendar

(04:34):
.
We created a calendar and Ithink that probably definitely
sparked something in me in termsof getting underneath the roots
of what business meant, and Iloved learning how businesses
breathe and grow and how theyare, this real entity that needs
so much thought around them,beyond just the idea.
I grew up with a dad who set uphis own business and he's a

(04:55):
proper entrepreneurial spiritand I still remember to this day
I was sitting around the tablewith dad and him telling us his
business idea and me thinkingthat is rubbish.
I had to keep my own hat thisyear because he sold the
business and he's donefantastically well and, funnily
enough, his business was ane-commerce business.
It was school uniform andselling school uniform on the
internet, which I thought wasrubbish at the time because back

(05:18):
then we didn't really use theinternet, it wasn't a thing.
And here I am running ane-commerce business and, yeah, I
said really having to eat myhat on that opinion of my dad's
company.
It shows just the power of rolemodels, doesn't it?
The power of what you see whenyou're growing up with your own
eyes.
It gives you the confidence tothink well, I could do that.

Sue Anstiss (05:36):
And what was that journey then?
So what inspired you to startPB Sports Bras?
Where did that come from?

Lucy Horsell (05:41):
So after school I went actually into corporate
corporate finance and I spentfive years in private equity,
which I was horrendous likehardest years of my life, and I
qualified at the same time.
So I did my exams in line withthat, which I think like
genuinely to this day, like Ilook back on and there's people
I worked for back then I'm stillin contact with now who
absolutely whipped me into shapeand there's not a day that goes

(06:03):
by with running this businesswhere I don't lean into that
qualification and myunderstanding of finance and
accounts and certainly like M&Aand private equity as we go
through the next couple of years, the business looking at things
like funding.
And I was very happily doingthat and I was glad I did my
exams because I am a bigbeliever in like building up
your personal confidence byreally owning your biggest

(06:24):
insecurities and and for me itwas always the fact that I never
got a levels.
I never went to uni.
I needed to earn my place in aroom and I think being able to
qualify properly in somethingthat was widely respected helped
me massively.
And then I joined my dad'scompany so he was doing what is
school blazer and his businesspartner contacted me to say they

(06:44):
wanted to expand over toAustralia and would I go and get
involved.
And I was sort of 24, 25.
I finished all my exams and oneof the things I loved most about
corporate finance was gettingto know the businesses we
represented and seeing themthrough the process of either a
management buyout or a sale, atrade sale or a private equity

(07:05):
sale.
And I used to watch these, youknow management teams that would
be part of this process andthey would be in the room when
everything got signed and they'dbe given, you know, equity in
the company or they'd get thishuge injection of cash and the
founder would leave.
And I used to look at them andthink I want to be you, I want
that really attractive balancesheet and I want to be given the
reign of the business and goyeah, go and grow it.

(07:26):
And so I was sort of fizzlingout, I think a bit in advisory
and when they contacted me andsaid they wanted to do Australia
and they sort of neededsomebody who, I guess,
understood the nuts and bolts ofthe company to be able to grow
it over there.
And I can sell and I'm notscared to put myself out there.
So I joined the company to goand do that and moved over to
Sydney, which was brilliant,albeit it coincided with Brexit,

(07:50):
which meant after about sixmonths we worked with a number
of organizations and schoolsover there we had to withdraw
and so I came back to the UK andstarted working for the UK
company, which initially startedwith me looking at their suite
of products and looking at thesports kit and going that is
pants.
That is the same stuff I usedto have to wear at school and I

(08:14):
remember when my dad started thebusiness and he was just doing
uniform, I was about 15, 16 whenI got selected to go on a
hockey tour with school and itwas wicked because I was one of
the youngest to go and the boysat the same time were going to
New Zealand on the rugby tourand the girls were going on the
hockey tour.
We were all sponsored and it waswild.
And obviously, aside from allof that adventure and all of
that kudos of getting to go,what does everyone care about?

(08:36):
It's the kit, it's the stash,and I was one of the last to go
and pick my kit up because I'dhad like an exam or something
that meant I was last to pick itup.
And you know when like a stashof kit arrives and it's all
wrong, sizing is all wrong andeverything comes up huge, so
everyone forgets what size theyordered and takes the size they
want.
And I went along to get mineand it was the biggest sizes and

(08:56):
everything.
And I was quite a scrawny oneand I was the youngest to go,
and I remember coming home withmy huge polo shirt and my
enormous tracksuit bottoms andshowing them to my dad and being
absolutely devastated becauseall we wanted to do was to come
back from tour and wear that kitthroughout the season because
everyone would be like oh she,she went on the Australia tour
and it was a real badge of honor.

(09:16):
And then when I rejoined thecompany was sort of 10 years
later I was like the kit isactually just kind of the same
and I don't want to go for a runaround London in a skort and I
don't want to wear a polo topand I don't believe these girls
want to either.
And so there was somethingreally interesting happening in
the school's world at the sametime, because the school's world
was shifting from you know,what are the Australian hockey

(09:38):
tour team doing in pre-seasonand how are they performing on
Saturdayss, to what percentageof the student body are
partaking in sports at school.
And there was this huge shiftin schools to participation and
I think it was coinciding withthe mental health crisis.
Everyone suddenly wants to talkabout mental wellness and how
the influence of sport has arole there.
Gender neutrality was comingalong the tracks, actually at a

(10:01):
pace where you know the ideathat girls were being forced to
wear skorts on the hockey Astrobut you know they were having a
debate about whether they shouldwear skirts was interesting.
So I did this big redevelopmentof the brand where I designed
things like leggings leggingsthat I would want to wear, that
mirrored my you know sweatyBettys, lululemons, nice running

(10:22):
shorts that fitted my bum andmy thighs because I'm a hockey
player, I've got thighs.
Nice t-shirts that weren't poloshirts and like polo shirts are
interesting because they're madeon a size chart that is like
the polo shirt size chart, whichmeans they're inherently boxy.
So the thing I used to see inschools all the time was girls
playing netball and they'd shootand the first thing they'd do
after they'd shoot would pulltheir top down.

(10:43):
They wouldn't see if the ballwent in they'd pull their top
down and I thought that'srubbish actually.
So we read about it to allthese nice bits of kit and just
I was really mindful of beingreally thoughtful about it, like
with the t-shirts, for example.
You know, one of the biggestcheats in the industry is to run
elastane through t-shirts andcall them ladies fit cap the
sleeves and run elastane through.
So it's all a bit clingier.

(11:03):
And actually teenage girls inparticular, and lots of women,
they don't want their sportswearto be clingy.
They're getting boobs, they'regetting hips, they've got a bit
of puppy fat.
They'll naturally carry morefat at that age.
They don't want something thatclings to them.
And it was through doing thedevelopment of that T-shirt I
saw with my own eyes girlsweren't wearing sports bras and

(11:24):
I distinctly remember being satat school in Cheltenham and it's
Cheltenham Ladies College,beautiful school and I did a
focus group with these girls.
It was like my favorite part ofthe job was going into schools,
sitting down with 20 odd girlsand saying guys, I'm designing
your sports kit, why don't youget involved?
And then you feel like you'rebeing heard, you can share your
thoughts with me, you can tellme what you love and what you

(11:44):
hate about your current kit andthen when we come to launch it,
they feel really part of thatprocess and it feels less of
this.
But I'm going to stand overhere and tell you what you
should wear.
And these girls sat in thisroom with me and half of them
just said oh, we don't like howthe t-shirts fit.
And I wear the t-shirts and I'mpretty critical of my own work

(12:07):
and I actually think they're allright.
And I could just see that halfof them were wearing push-up
bras, so they were kind ofspilling out the top.
You could see they were diggingin on their sides.
You could see they werestrapped into something that was
fully sausage boobing them.
I use the term sausage boobpretty loosely.
It was.
Sausage boobing is somethingmost women have done, if not
once, twice in their in theirlife, maybe their whole life.
And I spoke to one of thedirectors of sport at the time
and I said you know what's thedeal with the girls wearing

(12:29):
sports bras?
Because I really understandthat when you're 15, 16, and
everything's changing, and youput on a bra and it all feels
wrong, and then you put on at-shirt and it all feels wrong,
it's much easier to say we don'tlike the t-shirt than to go.
I it's much easier to say wedon't like the t-shirt than to
go.
I've got boobs and I don't knowhow to do anything with them
and my bra feels funny.
I'm just going to wear myhoodie and I'm going to tell you

(12:50):
I don't like the t-shirtBecause that doesn't open the
conversation into breastdevelopment that they just don't
really want to have,particularly with a head of
sport, maybe not even with aparent.
And this director of sports saidto me you know it is a problem,
they don't wear sports bras,but it's not really my place.
And I also really understandthat challenge because she was a
female head of sport and I canunderstand, even as a female

(13:14):
head of sport.
How do you tackle that with thegirls and beyond, just being in
a position where you might makesomebody feel embarrassed as a
woman, what's her solution?
She doesn't have one becauseall of us have our sports bra
war stories of how it's notworked.
So if you're going to open thecan of worms and you need to go
and get a sports bra and thegirl goes, okay, well, what do I

(13:35):
do about that?
Where do I go, and your answeris, oh, I don't know, that's not
very helpful either.
And then you have, you know,parents and I did a lot of focus
groups with parents at the timeto try and get underneath the
challenge and, like parents,fall into two camps.
You've either got like you knowwhat I grew up with, which was
my dad.
You know, I grew up with my dadin my teen years and and I said

(13:56):
we have a wonderfulrelationship and I never would
have gone to my dad and said,hey, dad, have you noticed I've
got boobs.
I need a sports bra Not in amillion years, I think up until
probably quite recently.
He refers to my underwear as mysmalls if I leave them in the
dryer, and he's pretty okay withthis stuff.
Or you get the mums, and you getthe really proactive mums that
go.
I know what I'll do.
I'm going to take her to Marksand Spencer's.

(14:17):
And then you just see thesegirls like I really don't want
to go there.
It's old, it's not sporty, it'snot for me.
So everyone just kind of stickstheir head in the sands and the
result of the challenge is thatthe girls don't feel good in
their kit and they don't knowwhat to do about it.
And then they grow into womenwho I meet now who are in their
50s, 60s, 70s, who will say, oh,I have no a sports bra, but it

(14:39):
rubs or it chafes or it'ssquishy, and so you can see how
this problem like compounds.
So my initial big business ideaand it was a bit different was
to buy a number of bras that Iloved and go out into schools,
and when I did these focusgroups be able to like
wholeheartedly recommend a greatsports bra for each girl and it
was only when I shopped themarket I realized the kind of

(15:02):
the depth of the problem and I'mnot very full busted, so I was
kind of somebody that got awaywith it and I just looked at
what was out there and I sawthat A none of it was suitable
for a teenage girl becausethey're growing, which meant
actually none of the productsout there was really thinking
about the fact that women'sbreasts evolve anyway,
regardless of puberty.
Like we all have a menstrualcycle and we might choose to

(15:22):
have babies or we go through themenopause.
Like our breasts changeconstantly, as do our needs.
Like I'm a runner but I go tothe gym.
So I was somebody that haddifferent sports bras for
different things and there wasno regulation, so there was no
product that I could put infront of these you know
impressionable young girls withthe school's, you know, blessing
behind me and say anythingother than well.
I think that one was tested,but this one's my favorite and

(15:44):
this one won this award withthis magazine.
You know, it all starts tobecome very brand led and I feel
really strongly you can't do iskeep pushing brands onto
vulnerable girls and womenbecause of how it looks or
because of how the advert looks.
So I designed my first sportsbra while I was working for them
, which is still for sale tothis day.
It's called the limitless Braand it's a real kick in the
teeth, because my only realcompetition in schools is a bra

(16:06):
that I bought a patentcertificate for.
It still sits in a sole bicycleblazer, as is our bras.
By the time I launched it, Ihad this feeling in my heart
that it wasn't enough to have itsat on a website.
You needed to go to people andyou needed to give them the
opportunity to get fitted andyou needed to be able to do that
from a space of education andreally get women and girls to

(16:28):
understand that this is aboutinvesting in themselves and it's
about self-care and it's notembarrassing and it's a part of
their sports kit that we're justgoing to help them get right.
So I bravely left the comfysalary and the posh job and
decided I was going to go at iton my own and set up on my own
this bra company which coincidedwith COVID.

(16:49):
That was a complete nightmare.

Sue Anstiss (16:53):
So when did PB start?
Is it 2020?

Lucy Horsell (16:56):
We've been trading for just shy of three years now
, but there's a bit of acrossover story in here.
With my co-founder, charlotte,who, at the same time that I was
stepping away from this job anddecided to set up this bra
business and very quickly, bythe way realized that
operationally I was rubbish andfactories was not my strength,
and neither was critical pathsor attention to detail my

(17:19):
business partner, charlotte, wasover in another part of London
starting her business, which wasalways called PB, my business
was called Bounce, and so wewere running these concurrent
processes before the starsaligned and we met each other.

Sue Anstiss (17:32):
How interesting A lot of women are working with
co-founders, partners that bringsomething else to the.
And when I set up my agency along long time ago, 25 years ago
, I did it all on my own.
I was a whole no, I think.
Someone told me they were inbusiness with three other guys
and no one could decide who didthe work, and I'm honest to it.
So I then, when I did my ownthing, I thought I'd do it on my
own, but actually now, havingFearless Women with Kate and her

(17:56):
having all the bits that Idon't have into that, it's just
it's so much better to be doingit with somebody else and you
see that so much I think infemale businesses.

Lucy Horsell (18:05):
I can honestly say hand on heart that the day
Charlotte and I sat downtogether we were both I
certainly was at white flagterritory.
I was like I'm done.
It's too hard.
I think having the decisionfatigue of having to take all of
it on on your own is soexhausting.
You have nobody really to talkto.
I had a fabulous dad who had hisown venture.

(18:27):
I have a wonderful boyfriendwho's wildly supportive, and I
met wonderful people like Kellyyou know lovely Kelly at Nixie,
who was like cheerleading mefrom Croydon and we would chat
regularly and be like, oh, Ican't do this.
And she'd be like, yes, you can, but even even so, nobody has
skin in the game in the same way, and nobody is there on those
dark nights when you're satthere going, I don't know how to

(18:48):
do this.
That goes.
I think I do.
I think I've got a differentidea over here, and when we sat
down together, I had by thenbeen working for the well for a
couple of months and you know,when Emma rang me from the well
and asked me about working withthem to deliver more, more of
their education, it was likedream job moment.
I was like this is like what Iwas born to do.

(19:09):
I love doing this stuff.
I couldn't shake the sense thatthe sports bra company idea.
But there was a big part of methat thought you know what,
maybe, maybe this isn't what I'mmeant to do.
Maybe what I'm meant to do isgo out and share everything I
know and upskill myself on thescience and research and put
myself in that education space,and then somebody else is going
to have to come along and fixthis product challenge, because
I just don't think I'm meant todo that.

(19:30):
I think it's too bloody hard.
And then when I sat down withCharlotte, she was in a not
dissimilar position and I saidto her you know, I've got all of
these potential sales.
I'm really good at selling.
I've got loads of schools thatare keen to work with me.
I've got loads of clubs thathave got in touch with me.
I've got this great job withthe well and I can deliver this
fantastic education.
And Charlotte was sat theregoing well, I've got this
brilliant business with thissingle product.

(19:52):
We both had our single product.
Mine was for like the A to Dcup, charlotte's was for the
business.
I've got this greatrelationship with my factory.
I've got all of this happeningand I don't know where my sales
are coming from.
And I was like, well, funny,you should say that, charlotte,
because I think you and I couldbe quite powerful together.

(20:13):
And honestly, from that day,I've only cried once, and before
that I cried every single dayfor about a year.
I would sit on my boyfriend'sbed at the end of the day and I
would just cry and I'd be like Ijust don't know if I can do
this, but I'm not ready to letit go, because I think it's so
valuable what we're potentiallyable to offer.
And then, the only other timeI've cried since meeting

(20:34):
Charlotte is when Charlotte hadher baby last year and she went
off on maternity leave.
I was about five days intobeing on my own again and I was
like, oh god, this is what lifewas like before Charlotte and
it's not right and I don't likeit.
But honestly, since that day,like just like the weights are
all gone.
We just go from strength tostrength.
We're a powerful dynamicbetween the two of us and it was

(20:55):
.
It was a game changer, but Ireally was on my last legs.
If I'm honest, I think doing italone is incredibly hard.
It it's so lonely, it's sofatiguing and you don't get to
celebrate any of the highs.

Sue Anstiss (21:08):
Yeah, it's so true, it's so true and it's been
lovely to see that from thewomen I've spoken to.
So it wasn't a theme I thought,but actually having seen women
and heard from women, itcertainly does feel that is the
case, I guess.
Just going back to thepracticality of a kind of sports
bra and that sports bra space,one of my questions I'm now
interested in why did you gothat sports bra route and not

(21:31):
sports wear?
Because actually there's somany issues across all of sports
wear.
You mentioned the skorts versusthe t-shirts and the polo
shirts.
So why was the sports wearmarket not your kind of focus?

Lucy Horsell (21:43):
Honestly, when I designed my first bra, it was
the first piece of kit that Idesigned myself.
That was new and, as I said, Ijust saw so much room for
improvement beyond a lot ofsports kits.
It's pretty good.
It's just the sizing's crap.
And the reason that sizing ishorrible is because that's
usually dictated bymerchandisers and factories.
It's actually not usually theperson who's designed it who's

(22:05):
decided to only run it in threesizes.
There's a lot of like politicalreasons why that's a challenge,
but when I saw that I genuinelyevery single sports bra I came
across was not good enough and Ijust thought I just think we
can do this better with theright amount of diligence and
care it sort of became the realproblem I wanted to solve.
I guess I think you know, as abusiness, I'm really keen that

(22:27):
if you're going to do something,do one thing brilliantly, do
that brilliantly and don't comeout with 25 okay products, 24 of
which are like anything else.
That's out there.
Go and perfect.
The one big challenge and I saythis to women all the time that
, like for any female athleteand I define an athlete as any
woman that wants to move herbody and has breast tissue

(22:50):
whether that is running for thebus, running a marathon
representing this country.
Her most important bits of kitare her sports bra and her
trainers, because those twothings have an impact on your
genuine mechanics and yourinjury risk as well, as you know
the incremental gains that comeon performance, whereas the
other pieces of kit are reallyabout preference and what you
like and how it fits and how itfeels, and, yeah, there's loads

(23:12):
of room for that stuff to bebetter.
But actually on like a baselinelevel, it me and kelly have
this chat a lot with.
You know her knickers, that it'syour sports bra and your
knickers and those bits ofunderwear should just be bang on
for women.
That that shouldn't be.
When a woman's running alongbright and singing front, she
shouldn't be predominantlythinking, god, I can't wait to
get this sports bra off, or thisactually feels really

(23:34):
uncomfortable, because all thatis creating is a world where,
because anatomically we havebreasts, that is a problem that
we have to solve and and I hate,I hate referring to it as a
barrier, hate even the fact thatit's never been labeled as a
barrier, because it's actuallyvery solvable and I think,
whilst women's kit can be better, I don't think it necessarily
stands in the way of a womanmoving in the way a bra might.

(23:56):
I think it'll bug her and it'snot good enough but she'll still
, probably it'll be all right.
But but not having a goodsports bra, it will drive women
out of moving their body and itmakes them feel rubbish.

Sue Anstiss (24:08):
I was going to move on to ask you about that in
terms of, I guess, how much thebreast size contributes to girls
dropping out of sport, and it'ssomething we don't really talk
about that much.
But I remember reading somereally shocking statistics a
couple of years ago about thenumber of girls that drop out of
sport because they're in painor they're embarrassed about
their breast size, and I guessI've never had massive boobs, so
it's almost like something youhaven't experienced and you

(24:30):
haven't lived in that world.
And then, when I think I readthe research and I thought about
the women and girls that I knowand thought, oh, that's
probably true, isn't it thatthey're probably not as active,
not as sporty as the women thatI've played with in teams or
have done triathlons with orwhat have you.
So how much is that an issuefor young girls and changing
bodies that it stops themplaying sport?

Lucy Horsell (24:50):
Well, I mean the reported stat is 64% of girls
drop out of sport because ofchanges through puberty and
breasts, and that's two thirds ahuge number.
I think I always have a bit ofa view on reported stats versus
the reality and it's a bit likethe reported stat of 80% of
women are in the wrong bra size.
Like I would love to find the20% that are, because I don't

(25:12):
find them very often.
And you know, when we work withyounger girls and even older
women actually women who we meet, even like the marathon show
who will tell us oh, I'm notsporty.
That label of I'm not sportylike what does I'm not sporty
mean?
I'm not sporty usually means Idon't believe I belong in sport,

(25:36):
I don't believe I have the bodyfor sport.
Like I was only at a runningclub the other day and somebody
said, oh, I'm not an actualrunner, I've got short legs and
I have short legs as well.
Women are so quick to giveourselves these negative labels
around movement because we'realmost shy about the things to
do with our anatomy.
That doesn't mean we look likewe belong on the cover of
Women's Fitness Magazine and bigboobs are a really good example

(25:59):
of that.
But when we deal with youngergirls, it really isn't just the
size of the breast.
It's not the girls with bigboobs that come to us that we
make the biggest impact on.
Don't get me wrong Whateverenvironment we are in, we have
tears.
We have the girls who are fullbusted, and particularly those
who are like narrow in the backand full busted.
They're lean, but they've gotbig boobs.
It's a game changer for thembecause it will genuinely stop

(26:20):
them wanting to move their body.
But we also get the other endof the spectrum, which is where
I spend a lot of my time, whichis the girls that are early on
in their development up to thatC and D cup, and they are the
ones that I think you can makeas much impact on that.
They're the forgotten ones.
And actually when we work withelite athletes, the challenge

(26:40):
with elite athletes is up thereas well, because I think people
assume that elite athletes don'thave breasts because they're so
elite, they're so up and downflat or that they've got it
solved, obviously becausethey're elite athletes.
But actually the women who sitin kind of the c cup and below,
or the d cup and below, they arethe sausage boobers, they're
the me's, they are the ones thatwear the squish them down, pull
over the head, the tighter thebetter, and they are the women
who get stuck in their sportsbras routinely.

(27:02):
But that is not how life shouldbe.
But most women I meet if I say,have you ever got stuck in your
sports bra?
They'll go yep, definitely haveHot, sweaty session, done some
arm work and I'm sort of stucklike this in the changing rooms.
They are the ones who will behaving their breath most
impacted because they arewearing something that is so
tight, because it has to pullover their head and it's just
going to be clinging to them ontheir rib cage, which means

(27:23):
their breathing economy is goingto be impacted in a really
negative way and they are waymore likely to be the ones that
get on with it.
And they just get on with it.
But actually, when you look atthe impacts on performance, the
impacts on injury, yes, there'sa sliding scale.
The woman who's a 28 double Gis going to have more impact on
her movement than the womanwho's a 30C, for example.
But it's still there, it'sstill a real thing and when we

(27:47):
go into any environment, wealways do education.
That the education is toeverybody, because I don't mind
how little breast tissuesomebody has and I don't mind
how sporty they think they are,they have breast tissue.
They are a woman in sport andthere is stuff that we talk
about that they need to knowabout, and that is about body

(28:08):
literacy and self-care.
We cover things like breastinjury and just having a bit of
a relationship with theirbreasts.
That isn't so negative.
It's like breasts in this spaceof a problem unless it's in a
sexual environment, and thenit's glorified and there's
nothing in between of that.
It's like our bodies areincredible and our breasts are
wonderful and the amount ofwomen I measure and fit and
girls who I don't even thinkthey want to look down, they
don't want to look down and foryounger girls that's new, it's

(28:28):
newness and for a lot of themit's, you know, budding or it's
asymmetry.
It's growing unevenly that thethe early moment of the day you
start to get boobs for mostwomen is oh my God, this is a
problem, I need to do somethingabout this and I need to hide it
and that manifests over ourlives forever and we try and row
these women back later in life,when they come to us later and

(28:51):
we'll say like you know, don'tapologize to me.
Every woman I fitted,particularly older women, they
all apologize to me and we havea rule when we do our fittings.
You know one rule when you getfitted with us, and that is no
apologies.
I don't want to hear them.
I don't want to hear I'm reallysorry, I've not shaved my
armpits.
I don't want to hear that, ohGod, I'm wearing the ugliest bra
.
I wasn't expected to get fittedtoday.

(29:12):
Please.
I'm like I am not here to judge, but for the next five minutes
should we just forgive you forhaving breasts and should we
just make this about doingsomething lovely for you and you
can shout at yourself later, ifyou want to, about something
else, but for the next fiveminutes I'm here for you to look
after your breasts, becausethat is what you deserve,
regardless of your size, yoursportiness, your age.
You deserve that because yourbody's wonderful.

(29:34):
It just needs a little bit morelove.
And we're pretty mean to ourboobs.
I always say to people like,just be a bit nicer to them.
We're pretty horrible to themmost of the time.
We expect them to stand forattention when we want them to
look fabulous, and the rest ofthe time we're like go away and
don't get in my way and talk tome and actually like they're
there.
We just should probably acceptthat they're there.

Sue Anstiss (29:51):
I love that I've got so many different ways.
I want to take thisconversation now, but you
recently fitted me with a sportsbra at an event at Sherbourne
School and I have to say it hasbeen remarkable.
I mean, just I kind of thoughtit would have an impact, but
just the impact I had.
In fact, after you fitted me, Iwent off to deliver two
workshops and when I saw youlater I said I think they might

(30:12):
be the best two sessions I'veever delivered in that
environment.
I felt really confident andpositive and I think so much
about my posture and how I feltsupported and it's definitely
helped me.
I feel like I'm like a littlecase study for you here, but
it's helped massively my back.
I've had upper back pain for thelast year and that has gone.
I'm wearing it now.
As you can see on the podcast.

(30:33):
It's really gone, so it's beenamazing.
So what is the response thatyou have from women?
Because I do think it's similar.
I've, I've been, I've been allthose things you've described
over the years in terms oftrying to find the right sports
bar.
But what response do you getfrom women and girls when, when
you fit them for the first timeand it and it does feel so
different.

Lucy Horsell (30:49):
It feels, you know , right and and comfortable it's
always the oh my god, like thisfeels amazing and whenever we
fit women that I go through acouple of when I fit.
But the first thing we do whenwe've got the fist is say, jump
around.
You have to jump around, you'vegot to feel this for yourself.
And they jump around and theygo oh my God.
And I say, right, this is howyou deserve to feel.

(31:12):
And frankly and I don't getwrong, I love men, not here to
push men out of the conversation, but this is how men get to
feel Like can you imagine aworld where, if you decide to
get up to go for a run, allyou've got to do is you pull on
your shorts, you pull on yourt-shirt, you pull on your
trainers and you're out the door?
Us women.
Well, what knickers am I goingto wear?
What am I going to do with myhair?
Like if I put it up?
And I grew up with a brotherand I've watched them and I

(31:48):
think for women it's that momentof feeling what it feels like
to not have breasts when youwant to move your body is
extraordinary.
It is a massive moment andyou'll remember from when I
fitted you, sue, like when we gothrough our fitting process.
There's lots of thought in ourbra that's well beyond just the
motion of breasts.
That is the positioning of thebreasts on the body, the
anchoring of the breast weightbetween the shoulder blades to
alleviate any posture concernsand help you stand better, which
is going to help you breathebetter.

(32:09):
And I do believe that takingthat time with women to explain
that to them A it's a fewmoments where somebody's just
thinking about them, which Ithink for women doesn't happen
very often, particularly when itcomes to their bodies.
And for me, it's really aboutgetting women to reconnect with
their body, because their bodyknows how their body wants to
feel, like our bodies know.
When I fist you straight away,I said to you you'll know where

(32:30):
to fit this bra, because whenthe weight of your breasts taken
off your shoulders and intothis fabric, you're gonna feel
good, your brain is gonna.
That feels amazing.
So it's like getting us to likedial back in with knowing
what's right for us, as opposedto what a website says or what a
label says or what somebody onInstagram says.
You know what's right for yourbody.
And there's lots of thought inthat fitting process where we

(32:52):
get women to really re-engagewith that and even if they don't
wear our bra, even if theydon't buy our bra, I always am
really conscious of giving themthe best advice we can so that
when they go out to shop, theyare not going to be subjected to
the marketing noise that isgoing to drive them into buying
more and more product that isn'tgoing to work for them.
Because I really believe this.
Whenever a woman puts on an itemof clothing that doesn't fit

(33:15):
her, our narrative is always mybody's the problem.
I work in what I do and I spendall day, every day, trying to
make women feel good about theirbodies, and I am not immune to
the H&M changing rooms.
We've all had that moment whereyou go into H&M or Zara and you
pull out a pair of jeans that'sthe same size as the ones you
bought not long ago, and you gointo the changing rooms and

(33:36):
you're trying to get them on andyou can't pull them up, and
they've got those awful likemirrors behind you as well,
which I just don't think anyoneshould see themselves from that
angle and you're like this isawful, and all any of us do is
go.
I must have put on weight, mybody's changed.
We never go.
That's done on a different sizechart, a different factory, and
that's crap and needs to bebetter.
Like none of us are resilientenough for that.

(33:57):
So showing women how to getstuff to work for them as
opposed to going oh actually,you know, you're sort of in
between sizes, so you need towear that size in this style and
that size in this style andthis one in this, it just starts
to become this real massivecomplexity that I think makes us
just blame ourselves all thetime and it's negative.
It's the negative.
Relationship that's therealready is something I really
take pride in unraveling alittle bit.

(34:18):
Relationship that's therealready is something I really
take pride in unraveling alittle bit.
Or in a younger girl stoppingfrom happening, get them early
and stop that from becoming athing, setting them up for a
much better approach to theirbody, sort of in other areas
that are more you know, morechallenging for them.

Sue Anstiss (34:34):
Perhaps it's so important, isn't it?
And I think the thing for me isprobably about breath.
I think when you were talkingthere and I was thinking,
probably that is the thing, isnit?
It's about breathing, which iskind of important, isn't it?
Breathing and speaking?
But I think that's how it makes, when it makes me feel tall and
able to breathe.
I guess what would you say?
Clearly, your bras are amazing.
I would definitely vouch forthat, but they're not cheap
either, and nor should they be.
But is there an issue forfamilies generally?

(34:58):
I've got three daughters, soactually to have equipped all of
those in great sports braswould be an expense.
I guess what would you say topeople that are either reticent
to buy a high quality sports bra, or how we address that to get
everybody in a great sports bra?

Lucy Horsell (35:13):
well, yeah, there's two, two sides of this
isn't there?
Because I think the first partis no, they're not cheap.
They're also not the mostexpensive.
You know the sports bra market.
You can spend seven pounds atPrimark and you can spend 110
pounds at Lululemon.
You know, we're sort of firmlyin the middle of that and we
price our bras to reflectgenuinely the cost to make them
and the cost to do what we'vedone and the quality of the

(35:35):
fabric.
And it's really important inbras is things like the
integrity of the fabric, becausewe hope that our bras would
last a good year for somebodywho's pretty active.
So, actually, really about thevalue of that, it's like, you
know, one bra that lasts you ayear, that you get really good
wear out of, versus what I usedto have, which was 15 different
sports bras, all of which lastedabout three washes and then

(35:56):
felt completely different, and,yes, they were all maybe less
expensive probably 20, 25, 30quid.
The value of my sports bradrawer once upon a time was
quite, you know, punchy and it'sreally, you know, actually
buying something and investingin something that is quality and
is going to give you thatamount of wear is where it
really comes into play and, inparticular, things like the
adjustment.

(36:17):
So then you're saying tosomebody you know you can wear
this bra up here for running anddown here for the gym.
If you're somebody who is, youknow, going through her
pregnancy, like Charlotte was,this is going to last you, you
know, hopefully about twotrimesters really.
So you're buying somethingthat's going to carry you
through like this period of yourlife or a girl going through
puberty.
You know, if you had threedaughters that were under 18,

(36:41):
you might go bloody hell.
Lucy, your bra's 65 quid.
I've got, you know, six pairsof boobs I've got to look after
in my house.
But I'm sure that one of yourbiggest challenges as a parent
is buying something and thennext week it doesn't fit her.
So actually buying somethingthat you can see is going to
capture two cup sizes offluctuation, which for most

(37:04):
girls.
I've done a lot of researchinto looking at the bell curve
of puberty and the changesacross breast sizes in a teenage
girl.
That should cater for a goodyear of a girl.
It's also going to allow her towear it all day, from school to
sport, and I think you know Inever want to celebrate parents
that they're going to find inthe bottom of a drawer at the
end of term and go, great, thatwas a good use of money because
it's just sat in their games bagall term.
Like having something thatactually going to get use out of
is where you bring that valuein.
And for us as a brand, you knowour value add is where we
really want to shine, which isthere's a lot of time and

(37:25):
knowledge that's gone into ourfitting experience, our
education and, yes, our product.
But actually having that, youknow, an Instagram page where
you can message with yourquestions, somebody who can help
you do your fitting, somebodywho can give you some advice
around asymmetry or signpost youtowards fantastic women like
you know, baz at the well, ifthey're actually, I really do
struggle with my breath and I'vegot a nightmare with my pelvic

(37:46):
floor.
Okay, well, let's unpack that alittle bit.
Let's see how we can maybesolve some of these problems and
work out what's really going onfor you, and so I it's
genuinely not push back.
We get is on the prize, and Ithink when we go into schools,
for example, you know the schoolwill get us in to deliver this
service for parents.
And it's all good news forparents because we're removing
potentially something that theyworry about more than maybe they

(38:09):
would care to admit, which is Isort of don't ever want her to
fall out of love with sportbecause she's growing into a
woman like that's such a sadthing, I think, as a parent, to
see happen.
And we offer a discount inthose environments to schools,
you know, to parents, so thatthey can, you know, if they've
got three daughters in theschool, we can help them get
them all kitted out, becausethat's what we want.
I want girls wearing our brasand running around them and

(38:30):
loving them.
And coming back to us in a yearand it is knackered and they're
like, wow, I need another braand I'm like, good, you've worn
it to death.
That is great news.
And then I think, kind of on abigger scale than that, you know
, finding funding that'savailable to help with this is
something I'm very keen on and Iknow it's out there because we
find it.
One of my probably biggestfrustrations at the moment is

(38:52):
around funding and aroundsponsors in sport, and it's
really hard because I'm a verystubborn person.
I'm very stubborn when it comesto what we stand for as a brand
in particular and I've hadnumerous conversations where I
go on to calls with you know bigorganizations that champion
women's sport and their answerto me is well, if you gift us 25

(39:15):
bras for our top team, uh,we'll do a really nice photo
shoot with those ladies for youand it's great pr and you'll get
loads of noise and loads ofrecognition for that.
And I'm like are you reallysuggesting that we do this?
Like you're asking us to useyour female athletes, who have
worked enormously hard toperform at the level they are
performing and the sacrificethey have made, we are going to

(39:35):
use their body as a pawn in ourcommercial game so that I feel
good and I get loads ofmarketing and you feel clever
because you've supported yourfemale athletes.
Like that is not the world Iwant to live in.
That is not a world I want toadvocate and I'm pretty firm on
that and we just won't do itlike we can't afford to give
bras away anyway.
If I had 25 bras to give away,I'd rather go down to a run club

(39:57):
in Brighton and gift those brasout to the hardworking mums
that pull two jobs and the girlsthat are in a local state
school that don't have sport intheir timetable but go running
in an evening with their dad.
Like I, would rather those brasgo to those communities, but
it's a challenge because,obviously, where we are as a
business, as you know, we'restill in our infancy it's very

(40:18):
easy to have these carrotsdangled and they look very, very
tempting, and they know this.
They know that they can do thatto us and I refuse to do it.
I think there's cleverer waysof funding access, and it
doesn't have to be access to ourproduct, but access to the
education.
Like a sports bra should not bea privileged piece of kit.

(40:38):
Every woman has breasts andevery woman should be able to
look after them well and havethe shopping hacks, which is
something that we champion.
Doing is like if you're goingto go into Decathlon, this is
how you do it and this is howyou find good product without
being a sucker for a tag thatshouldn't be privileged for
girls or women.
That should be stuff that weshould know about and I always

(41:01):
use the analogy.
You know again not to not tryand shame men, our wonderful
counterparts that are men.
But you know, if there was anissue with boys, balls bouncing
around and little boys didn'twant to play football because
their balls bouncing and it wasreally embarrassing and everyone
could see.
And you know we had professionalfootballers or rugby players
dropping out of sport becausetheir balls were massive, Like.
I promise you the big brandswould have solved that problem.

(41:21):
It would be solved and theywould be accessible, they would
be free.
You know, harry kane would berunning around with his ball bra
on, looking awesome and makingthem look really cool and boys
would talk about it in schoolsand everyone would have to hear
about their balls all the time.
And and for us girls and aswomen, we're so quick to just
shy away and go oh, it's myproblem, I'll solve it over here
quietly on my own and I don'treally want to talk.
Shy away and go.
Oh, it's my problem, I'll solveit over here quietly on my own

(41:42):
and I don't really want to talkabout it.
And I just think there's waysof using funding really cleverly
to really shift that wholenarrative in a different
direction for women.

Sue Anstiss (41:49):
I love that.
I love that.
So are you seeking investmentfor the business at the moment?
I've been talking to differententrepreneurs on this series.
Some are looking at differentforms of funding.
Is that something you're in thejourney for?
You're obviously quite new,relatively new, in terms of the
business.

Lucy Horsell (42:04):
Yeah, we are.
We're still fully self-funded.
Myself and Charlotte fullyfunded the business ourselves.
We've been very fortunate.
We've applied for a couple ofgrants which we've been gifted
by Innovate UK, which has beenwonderful.
So I don't know if you've everdone anything with Innovate UK,
but we've been so proud to winthose grants because they're
really hard to get and, um, andI'm not even going to take
credit for it, because Charlotteis just a fantastic application

(42:27):
writer for grants, she nailsthem and that's really off the
back of.
Like.
You know, we champion as abrand that our product is driven
by science and we obsess aboutthe research and we always want
to invest that back into theresearch, which is what we did
and we love.
We love that and I love workingin that space.
So that's carried, as I'd say,on.
Like so far, we've had a coupleof times where we've sat down a

(42:47):
bit like, right, we need someinvestment, let's go and find it
, and we've got very close to it, and then every time we get
pretty close, we sort of lookagain and think we've actually
had a really good couple ofmonths.
I'm not sure we have to takethis yet and and I said my
background and what I do and youknow Charlotte's background is
also with Barclays, and it islike the golden rule is like you
hang on to your equity untilyou absolutely have to give it

(43:09):
away.
And we are fierce about thatbecause we don't.
We know what business we havebuilt and we know how special it
is and we know how special thatis going to be as it grows and
I don't want somebody elsetaking a part of that away.
And we love that autonomybecause it means we can be
nimble, it means we can evolve,it means we can change how we do
things.
If it means the world needssomething different, we can run

(43:29):
after that and do it differently.
And I know that the change aninvestor would make to that it
would have to be the rightinvestor with the right heart
and all the values aligned withus.
And I think we'll be in thatposition.
You know where we're in sort ofour scaling time now and we're
scaling at pace.
But I said so far, every timewe think we're sort of cutting
it a bit, fine, we sort of getthrough, and so we hang on for a

(43:51):
little bit longer.
So I think it's coming down thetracks don't get me wrong, like
we'll be definitely on thatpath, probably in sort of six to
12 months, I would say, becausewe have big ambitions and we do
.
Our ambitions are huge.
So, yeah, we'll probably beopening that can of worms again.

Sue Anstiss (44:10):
And going back to the people we were speaking to
previously, and without givingaway any trade secrets, but can
you share any of those ambitionsfor kind of where you go to in
terms of products or programs orthe, the pb entity in itself?

Lucy Horsell (44:24):
I mean we as a brand.
What we stand for is, you know,we're called pb because we were
initially the acronym pbpersonal best and our goal is to
help women perform and train attheir best.
I see us going well beyond bras.
I think we've done somethingreally special with our bras.
We always wanted to be able tostand up and say we are the best

(44:46):
bra on the market as per thebiomechanical testing, not as
per someone's opinion, a poll, asurvey, a this, a star rating.
All of that stuff matters, Iget it, but the independent
people who test biomechanics ofwomen and test sports bras
globally have ranked us as thebest, and that is what we wanted
to get to and we've done that,which is amazing and who is that

(45:07):
?

Sue Anstiss (45:07):
Sorry, who does those tests?
Portsmouth University?
It is Portsmouth, I was goingto ask you.

Lucy Horsell (45:12):
Portsmouth are fantastic because they have
they've done it for the longestthey have the most amount of
testing, testing, research.
So they've tested just shy of400 sports bras, which in itself
tells you how, why we're soconfused as women, because
that's only the tested ones somany sports bras out there and
so they have the yeah, the mostdata of the market.
They have the facilities test.
There are other organizationsthat have the facilities test,

(45:35):
but portsmouth like I genuinelymean this on live, so like on a
global scale are leading the waywith how they manage that
research and the amount of datathey've collected over the years
by testing so many products ina controlled environment.
So we feel like we've nailedthe bra, which is wonderful, and
I feel like there's a hugeamount of work to do with
getting that out there and, as Isaid, even just the education

(45:56):
and the help, and but I reallybelieve that I know I have a lot
of other ideas, as youmentioned at the start, like
other areas of kit that justneed to be better and and I
don't think any of that stuff isespecially hard and I think I
know how to do it it's bandwidththat will hold us back and it's
cash flow because we we have 54sizes in our bra and we only
have um.
You know, we have the ice bluein both styles.

(46:17):
We have black in the gravitybra.
We'd have, you know, we havethe ice blue in both styles.
We have black in the gravitybra.
We'd like to, you know, bringout another color, but that's
not the priority, because theice blue is just great, because
it works fine white and itsolves the problem.
I don't want to have 15 colorsand just be another.
We churn it through with theseasons, you know.
Yes, fashion is important andwe're allowed to care that we
look nice, but fashion isn'tgoing to drive our merchandising

(46:44):
and it isn't going to drive ourproduct runway, because that's
not what women need.
So I think expanding into otherproduct areas is something
we're super excited to do.
It's again, it's just time andit's just being able to to
manage that effectively and comeat it quite differently.
As I said, we're we're militantabout our approach and that
means things don't happen quick,but I think that's okay.
I'm really comfortable withthat.
We just do things our way, wedo them right, we do them well
and I think for women, you know,one of my favorite books is

(47:05):
Shoe Dog.
It's, you know, the Nike, thestory of Nike.
You know.
Look what Nike did.
They nailed the trainer and Ithink if you've got a brand
where you go, do you know?
I love their bra.
It fits me really well.
I've met the team.
The fitting was excellent.
They've obviously put loads ofthought into this.
You then have built yourcredibility in the eyes of women
of we're going to now bring outthis product and it's going to
be equally thoughtful andequally we're going to care

(47:27):
about what you need, as opposedto go right now.
Here's our jumper and here'sour scrunchie, and here's our
socks and here's our leggingsand here's our.
Oh my God, just more product,more product being thrown at us
all the time.
So I think thoughtful expansionwithin product range is
something we're super keen on.
You know our team's grown.
We're now a team of seven,which is wild to say, like seven

(47:47):
people like, including me andcharlotte, which is amazing.
We don't want to spreadourselves too thin, but we are
in this constant tussle of like.
Yes, schools are brilliantlyimportant to us, and don't I?
Honestly, my heart, heart is inschools.
I love being in schools withgirls.
I think they're brilliant.
Our website bubbles along and itdoes really well.
We don't put a lot of energyinto it because we can't,
because we don't have thebandwidth.
And then we have our work withinElite Sport, which is

(48:12):
brilliantly exciting and we loveand I actually love the tussle
over things like sponsorship andnavigating those more
complicated conversations andbeing able to stand up in what
is usually quite amale-dominated room and go, no,
no, we're not going to do ityour way.
This is what we're going to dobecause this is what the women
in your care need.
And, yes, today she might be,you know, sarah who plays for

(48:33):
Scottish hockey, but next yearshe might not be, but she'll
still be Sarah who has breastsand needs a sports bra, and I
want her to buy into us and loveus as Sarah.
It's wonderful that she'sperforming at the level she is,
but we're here for her in abigger picture than that.
So I think growing out intothose channels is always, as

(48:55):
everything is, limited by cash,because you can't grow too quick
, and limited by how quickly youcan, you know, grow your team
to facilitate that.
So that's kind of uh yeah, whatI think the next 12 to 18
months looks like, which isbrilliant.

Sue Anstiss (49:08):
I can't wait very exciting, yeah, exciting times
ahead, and I did mention youwere my inspiration for this
series.
So we sat and talked and Ithought that's amazing story.
I want to share that and andfrom that I kind of asked you
and I built out from there toask other women working within
this space, and I love theunintentional crossover I've
been seeing from differentguests that are supporting each

(49:29):
other, and I know that, as yousaid, you've been working with
Baz and the Well HQ as well.
So can you tell us a bit moreabout, I guess, how women work
in that space and thatcollaboration, because I do feel
I've really witnessed that intalking to different women.
You know I was gonna say is itreal?
But clearly it is, becauseeveryone's telling me it is oh
it is.

Lucy Horsell (49:46):
It is like when I honestly, when I was on my knees
on my own, kelly was one of thefirst people I met Kelly from
Nixie, body and um and she'sjust one of the most
extraordinary people I thinkI've met.
She is so warm and such achampion of other women, and I
am too, and I really want toalways be that way, because I
think it was Baz or Emma at thewell who said to me you know, a

(50:07):
rising tide lifts all boats, andI think that's really true, and
I think one of the powers thatwomen have is that we are very
capable of collaborating andwe're not that quick to be
threatened, is that we are verycapable of collaborating and
we're not that quick to bethreatened.
And I love that, because Ithink the only way people like
us and people like Kelly andpeople like Baz and these

(50:27):
wonderful female-founded likeball-busting businesses are
going to survive is if we sticktogether, because if we stick
together, we can lock out thebig bad brands that are going to
make life hard for us and wecan genuinely elevate each
other's opportunities.
And I always want to be thatway towards other women, and
particularly other women whohave gone out alone, because
they will have felt the samepains.

(50:49):
We have a huge amount in common.
Even if they're a competitor,you know, even if they're in the
same spaces, we have loads ofcommon ground and there is space
for all of us to succeed.
And you know, one of my favoritesayings in life is calling
someone else fat doesn't makeyou thin.
Someone doesn't have to bewrong for you to be right.
We can all be right and we canall be right in a really
collaborative, supportive waywhere we just keep lifting each

(51:11):
other up, because that is whatwe stand for as a brand.
We're all about empoweringwomen, and whether that's a
woman who's in front of us withbig boobs and in tears, a girl
at school who's hit puberty andis having a meltdown, or another
woman that's out there sloggingaway to build her own business,
we are all here for each otherand it doesn't take a lot to
kind of go through life with anattitude of just support and

(51:33):
care and love people and lookafter them, because I don't want
to go to bed at night feelinglike, well, I'm really glad I
did that today, but I was a bitof a bitch to so-and-so.
That's not who I am and thatdoesn't sit right with me,
that's not our vibe at all.
So I think that what you've donewith the collective and the
network is extraordinary and Ithink network for women is

(51:54):
really, really key, becausebeing on your own is crap and
when I was on my own I hadallies like Kelly, like Baz and
Emma, and they were mycolleagues.
You know, they were my go-tosand that was a game changer for
me.
And you know, when we cometogether in a room with everyone
who's got their own story andtheir own frustration and their
own scene they're stressingabout.
I have never come away from oneof those events without another

(52:15):
good idea, a bit of a solution,a new contact, somebody that
can put me in front of somebodyelse.
And they've met me, so theyknow me and they know what I
need.
Like that is incredible and Ithink that's where women and men
are very different in theirattitude and it is our
superpower and we should embraceour superpowers of being able
to be open-minded and be able todo that.
You know we've got to lookafter each other.
We're still banging drums in amale space.

(52:37):
We are still doing and we willbe doing that for the rest of,
certainly, our lifetime.
Maybe the generation behind uswill have, you know, a different
landscape that they walk into,but we're going to be pushing
against closed doors forever, sowe should help each other push
how amazing is lucy.

Sue Anstiss (52:56):
I love her passion for the topic and we wish her
and PB well for the future.
If you'd like to hear from moretrailblazers like Lucy, there
are over 200 episodes of theGame Changers that are free to
listen to on all podcastplatforms or from our website at
fearlesswomencoukwellnesswomencouk.

(53:23):
Along with entrepreneurs, myother guests have included elite
athletes, coaches, broadcasters, scientists, journalists and
ceos all women who are changingthe game in sport.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
can also find out more about thewomen's sport collective, a
free, inclusive community forall women working in sport.
We now have over eight and ahalf thousand members, so please

(53:44):
do come and join us.
The whole of my book Game On theUnstoppable Rise of Women's
Sport is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Every episode of series 13 isme reading a chapter of the book
.
Thank you once again to sportengland for backing the game
changers and the women's sportcollective through a national

(54:04):
lottery award, and also to samwalker at what goes on media,
who does such a brilliant job asour executive producer.
Thank you also to my lovelycolleague at fearless women
Women, kate Hannon.
You can find the Game Changerson all podcast platforms, so
please do follow us now and youwon't miss out on future

(54:27):
episodes.
Come and say hello on socialmedia, where you'll find me on
LinkedIn and Instagram at SueAnstis, the Game Changers
fearless women in sport.