April 7, 2025 • 46 mins
Lucy Wray: Building Culture, Driving Change and Backing Women’s Sport
"Sport is this incredible rollercoaster of winning, losing, learning and bonding — I don’t think anything else creates that kind of magic."
This week on The Game Changers, Sue Anstiss is joined by Lucy Wray – an inspiring and influential leader in sport whose journey spans elite performance, business innovation and transformative change.
A former Wales lacrosse captain with over 70 international caps, Lucy’s early experiences as an athlete have shaped her deep understanding of team culture and what it takes to succeed at the highest level.
As Group CEO of Saracens from 2020 to 2024, Lucy led the club through one of its most turbulent periods – navigating relegation, the salary cap scandal and a global pandemic, all while pregnant. Her reflections on resilience, leadership and staying true to your values in the face of crisis are both powerful and profoundly honest.
Now as an investor, co-owner of London Mavericks Netball and board member of the Netball Super League, Lucy shares her bold vision for the growth of professional women’s sport. With a rare mix of commercial acumen and heartfelt purpose, Lucy speaks about building sustainable business models, creating inclusive, player-first cultures and investing in women’s sport not just as a commercial opportunity – but as a force for social change.
Whether she’s talking about building businesses, empowering athletes or creating unforgettable matchday experiences, Lucy’s story is one of courage, creativity and an unshakeable belief in the power of sport to do good.
This is a must-listen for anyone passionate about the future of sport, the rise of women’s sport and what it truly means to lead with purpose.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sue Anstiss (00:04):
Hello and welcome to The Game Changers.
I'm Sue Anstiss, and this isthe podcast where you'll hear
from trailblazing women in sportwho are knocking down barriers
and challenging the status quofor women and girls everywhere.
What can we learn from theirjourneys as we explore key
issues around equality in sportand beyond?
A huge thank you to ourpartners, Sport England, who
(00:25):
support the game changersthrough a National Lottery Award
.
I'm so pleased to be talking toLucy Wray today.
Lucy is a much experiencedsports leader who is dedicated
to shaping the future of women'ssport.
Lucy was group CEO of Saracensfrom 2020 to 2024, steering the
(00:47):
organisation through the men'srelegation to the Championship,
covid and a capital raise, andbrought the club back to the
place where both the men's andwomen were champions of England.
In 2024, Lucy became theco-owner of London Mavericks
Netball, one of eight franchisesplaying in the new Netball
Super League.
This has also held an array ofboard positions across sport,
(01:10):
including the Saracens Group,Premiership Rugby, Premiership
Women's Rugby, the eSportsAwards, which she co-owns with
her husband, Benchmark Sports,and Netball Super League.
Lucy was also a very successfulfemale athlete who captained
the Wales lacrosse team, playingin three World Cups, and has
had over 70 international capsto her name.
(01:30):
So, Lucy, should we start withlacrosse?
That's something I didn't knowabout you until you're obviously
very humble because you haven'treally talked about that.
I wasn't aware of that, but wasthat always the sport for you,
and what did you love about it?
Lucy Wray (01:45):
Yeah, I think it started at school.
I went to a lacrosse playingschool.
There aren't actually that manylacrosse playing schools and I
guess it was.
I was at a pretty academicschool and I was never kind of
the top 25 academic, butactually sport I suddenly found
I could be not not the best, butin the top 25.
So when you kind of get thatslight recognition, you know,
(02:07):
like it really kind of instillsin you that kind of desire.
I think I've always been verycompetitive and very driven,
probably got that from my mamaand dad.
So, yes, I think there's.
I just love the game oflacrosse.
My body was very broken afterthree world cups so I had to
stop.
I ruptured my ACL and I had adisc bulge and all sorts of
(02:29):
things, but otherwise I'd keepplaying now but it's as close as
I got to playing professionalsport, although it was
completely amateur.
But going on tours to Americaand seeing you know American
sport, american college sport,is incredible.
So yeah, it just lit somethinginside me and I loved it and I
think my dad watched everysingle lacrosse match I ever
(02:50):
played in oh.
I went to Bristol Universityand he used to drive to Bristol
from London every Wednesdayafternoon to watch me play don't
let me tell my kids that,because they're at university
now and we don't always get downfor all of their games.
So, uh, he set a very high barthere, didn't he?
He has, and now we've got todeliver the same for our kids.
Sue Anstiss (03:09):
I'm What going to be on the road a lot, I think
and what other sports did youenjoy so obviously you found
lacrosse at school, but were youan athlete across many other
sports as well?
Lucy Wray (03:22):
of county tennis and I threw the javelin and I did a
bit of county cricket as well.
So I did multiple differentsports and my family sports mad.
My grandmother was the Danishjunior tennis champion and my
grandfather was a scratch golfer, played cricket and rugby when
(03:46):
I was young and so I kind ofgrew up around the teams and
always being a cricket club orthe rugby club on a Saturday or
Sunday throwing a ball aroundthe whole time.
I was a bit of a tomboy so Iwas like never in dresses.
I was always covered in muddoing something.
Sue Anstiss (03:55):
And do you think if rugby had been more prevalent
in your school at the time, doyou think rugby would have been
a sport that you would haveplayed?
Lucy Wray (04:06):
I definitely.
I tried rugby in my teenageyears when my dad first got
involved with Saracen.
I actually went to a fewwomen's sessions and when I went
to Bristol University I triedit again.
I think I was a bit I was so inlove with lacrosse that I was
always going to be the winner,but I definitely tried it.
I'm not sure I was brave enoughto take the hits, to be honest.
(04:26):
Yeah, I think it's a great game.
I loved it.
I always loved throwing a rugbyball around and learning how to
do a spin pass off both handsand all of that.
So maybe if it had been biggerand in schools it would have
been uh, it would have been anoption for me.
Sue Anstiss (04:39):
I do reflect on that myself, but as my kids keep
telling me I don't think I was,I wasn't brave enough.
It was just starting atLoughborough when I was there.
I think I wasn't brave enough.
I'm not sure I'm brave enough?
I don't know although youplayed lacrosse, and that's a
pretty scary physical sport attimes too, isn't it?
yeah, you do get bruised arms alot in lacrosse you mentioned
there that your family beeninvolved in Saracen since 1995
(05:02):
when your dad first invested inthe club and you were still in
school at the time.
So how much was the club andrugby a part of your life
growing up?
Lucy Wray (05:11):
It very quickly became a big part of our lives.
I remember as a little girlwell, actually I was a little
girl, I was about 15-16 but westarted kind of as a whole
family going to the Saracensgames every weekend.
And I know my granny when shewas alive, granny Ray, she kind
of became the universal GrannyRay for the whole Saracens team.
(05:34):
So we kind of it just becamepart of our extended family, so
all the players and theirfamilies and the staff.
Very, very quickly we becamelike this giant kind of family
and it was really special and atthe time it was exciting.
It was the dawn ofprofessionalism and you had
players like Francois Pienaar,philippe Seller and Michael
(05:55):
Liner, kieran Bracken, richardHill, like all of these, and you
were kind of, you know, ridingthis wave of excitement with
them because the game waschanging so quickly.
You know riding this wave ofexcitement with them because the
game was changing so quickly.
And I just remember being partof that.
You know 17, 18, it was just,yeah, I loved it.
It was like the best investmentmy dad had ever made, in my
opinion at that age.
Sue Anstiss (06:14):
I'm interested because you mentioned and I know
we'll talk a lot about your dadand his support, but in terms
of your mum's support and yourmum's involved in support of him
within Saracens and her kind ofimpact on you and your life,
then yeah, my mum's an amazingwoman.
Lucy Wray (06:30):
I think I get all my inner strength from her because
actually my dad tries to avoidconflict at all costs, whereas
my mum will hit it straight on.
So I think I kind of get a fairand she's also ultra
competitive.
So I definitely get a lot ofthat from her.
But she was like very much partof the journey.
She came to every game, lovedit as much as it was a very and
(06:54):
even now today going to theSaracens games is like a big
family thing, like we have a boxat Stonehenge Stadium, but it's
just full of kids, full offamily, cousins, like aunts,
uncles, friends.
It's never been a kind ofcorporate thing for us, it's
just a nice way every weekend tobe together.
Sue Anstiss (07:14):
Yeah, that's so true.
I was very lucky to come andjoin you before Christmas
actually for one of the gamesthere, and I absolutely felt
that I came away and said I'venever been in a box like it and
the fact that there was familyand kids and it just felt very
like you were a lovely familyparty and then we got to watch
amazing rugby as well too.
So, yeah, I definitely feltthat from being there.
Did seeing your dad involved atSaracens inspire you and your
(07:38):
brother to want to work in inthe sports sector when you were
young, or was it just a kind offelt like a natural part of life
?
Lucy Wray (07:44):
Both my mum and dad have both taught us the
importance of kind of caring forpeople, putting people first,
investing in great people, andthat's what he's brilliant at.
He's brilliant at finding greatpeople and backing them for the
long term to create successfulbusinesses.
So I remember he was likeSaracens was his sounds wrong,
but it was his hobby, it was hispassion, but it wasn't his
(08:07):
business.
His business was, you know,investing in Domino's Pizza and
properties and Telco and youknow all manner of different
things.
My brother and I have that kindof desire to build businesses
and run businesses, but we alsohave the passion of sport.
So we've both just been luckyenough to kind of combine the
(08:30):
two in terms of I think we lovethe performance side of force
but we equally love the businessside of sport and that's what
my particular passion is, thatreal business side of sport.
So obviously I absolutely lovethe performance environment.
I loved it when I playedlacrosse but I equally love
everything off the pitch, offthe court.
(08:51):
You know, building the brand,building a sustainable economic
model, bringing in sponsors.
You know how do you grow yoursocial platform, everything that
for me and I think you know,our parents kind of gave us both
, and then we were just so luckyto have grown up with all these
amazing sporting talents aroundus.
So when I was seven we had ayoung Australian cricketer come
(09:13):
and live with us, who was JustinLanger, who turned out to be
like one of the best Australiancricketers he lived with us for
he was like my big brother,because he lived with us for
three summers and then he cameback with his wife and then his
daughter worked for our eventsbusiness for a few years and
(09:41):
we've kind of followed hiscareer.
People who've, you know,reached the very top of their
careers and been so successfuland high performing has been, I
guess, an incredible privilegealong the way.
Sue Anstiss (09:52):
And you mentioned that you're at Bristol
University, but you studiedlanguages at university, so what
was your ambition when you wentthere?
Was that a vocational thingthat you thought you might do
more in in the space oflanguages?
Lucy Wray (10:03):
you're shaking your head um, I think I was.
I can't remember you told methis, but someone said to me
that you should just picksomething at university that you
love, and it doesn't reallymatter where it might lead.
You know, just do something youlove that.
And I just happen to have anincredibly good French teacher
(10:24):
at school, and you know, someteachers can really inspire you.
I just loved my French teacherand yeah, so I kind of went
through languages not thinkingI'd ever have a career in
languages.
It was just I, you know, wantedto go to Bristol University,
enjoy university life, and Ichose something I was really
loved and didn't really thinkabout career from it, though I
(10:44):
don't think that ever crossed mymind.
Sue Anstiss (10:46):
And what were your first roles out of university?
Where did you go to from there?
Lucy Wray (10:51):
So I went to an events business, mainly
corporate events.
I like that.
I'm quite bit of aperfectionist, I'm quite like
detailed and I want everythingdone a certain way.
So that kind of suited me interms of the organization.
I'm quite a people person sothat kind of came easy to me in
terms of building thoserelationships and being kind of,
(11:12):
you know, front of things andchatting away to people.
So that I kind of went down theevents route.
But I think at the time I hadthe opportunity to try and get
into the 2005 Lacrosse World Cupteam.
So I was really training prettyhard to get into that and so I
got into that.
(11:32):
And then the next four years Iwas kind of doing the events,
but part-time but training, andI obviously very privileged to
be able to do that and to beable to take my sport, because
there's obviously no funding inthose days.
You paid five or six thousandpounds for the privilege of
going to the lacrosse world cup.
(11:52):
But it was just amazing that Icould get to do that and I had I
ruptured my ACL at the time.
It was awful when I was 16 or17 actually I think that was the
kind of making of me because mydad had just got involved in
Saracen.
So he kind of asked theSaracen's team like where, where
(12:14):
should Lucy have her knee done?
And how rehab?
And there was a great strengthand conditioning trainer who
basically took me under his wingand I think I'd always been
good at sport because I've gotgood hand-eye coordination but
I'd never been like that fit orthat agile.
That never come that naturallyto me.
But through that rehab I becameI became a proper athlete
(12:34):
because I had someone who reallyknew and in those days, like
women's sport, you just didn'tget that level of expertise.
There was just nothing there.
So in terms of I was just solucky that my rehab and strength
and conditioning then was justso good that it made me into a.
I think I got the very best outmy capability as a lacrosse
(12:55):
player.
So, yes, I loved that the worldcup in 2005 and then 2009 and
2013 and then I stopped.
But so I was.
I think lacrosse was reallydominant in more than career for
that.
Until I was about kind of 28,lacrosse is everything.
And then I bought a smallevents company called nbn events
(13:17):
and which my brother now owns,so it's kind of passed through.
We did like rugby world cupdinners and rider cup lunches
and, uh, sporting speaker of theyear, things like that.
So all events using kind of allof our kind of corporate
relationships, but centeredaround sport.
Yeah, yeah, so we built thatand it's a.
(13:38):
It's a really good littlebusiness still today.
And um, and then I think youmentioned in the intro, my
husband and I founded theesports awards, which tom takes
all the credit for because he'sdone all the hard work.
But, um, we started it inlondon and now it's been to
texas, vegas, and um, now it'sin riad and all of these things
(13:59):
have kind of you learn so muchjust in different industries and
different things, how they work.
I mean, the esports world isincredible in terms of how
they've harnessed audiencegrowth and digital and social
and influences etc.
So how you learn that and applya bit of that to traditional
sport.
And yeah, I just, I think Ifind that I just find the whole
(14:21):
business world of sportfascinating for me that's really
interesting and we're going tocome on to talk about London
Mavericks in a minute.
Sue Anstiss (14:27):
But I know, having sat in board meetings with you
and here, that you're bringingin all that expertise and
awareness of what's happening atthe cutting edge of other
sports too, and that is anamazing place to be able to kind
of coalesce all that skills andknowledge, as you say, across
other sports and other sectorstoo.
Lucy Wray (14:44):
I think I'm really lucky that as a family and dad's
invested in.
You know like tens of tens 20s,30s, 40s, 50s of different
businesses, all from differentsectors.
So you know and you just learnfrom each one, whether they're
consumer, you knowpharmaceuticals, like you.
Just you're constantly andthat's where I think my dad's
(15:07):
been really good at kind of heprobably sends us both like 10
emails a day about differentbusinesses, just updates.
So like this is happening, thisis happening.
So you just you're kind of likeit's just an incredible
learning journey that constantly, the whole time.
Yeah, and he does sometimescheck that we're opening all the
emails, but we do.
Sue Anstiss (15:29):
So, from that work in the event space space, you
then took on a variety ofleadership roles at Saracens and
in 2020 you became CEO and, asI mentioned in the instruction,
it's quite a tough time for theclub.
It had just been found guiltyof breaching premiership salary
cap in the previous three yearsand the men's team would then be
relegated to the championshipthe following year.
(15:49):
So how did it feel to be takingover as CEO?
It was difficult time for theclub, yeah it was incredibly
difficult.
Lucy Wray (15:57):
I think I maybe assumed the role of CEO by
default because nobody elsewanted to do it at the time and
I'm not looking at I'm not sureanyone thought I could do it.
But actually one of the thingsI'm most motivated by is proving
people wrong.
So if someone says I can't doit, I really then go out of my
way to make sure I can do it.
(16:18):
But I mean it had been so thatthe club obviously still is.
But it was such a big, you know, part of our lives for so long
by that stage, and not just theclub but you know the Saracens
High School and the SaracensFoundation and like the whole
community and the fans and stuff, and obviously you know dad had
kind of poured his heart andsoul into it by then for two
(16:42):
decades.
So obviously I was highlymotivated to make sure we got
through it, we survived it, soso that was a kind of huge I
think.
If you have that level ofmotivation it's quite powerful.
I was six months pregnant atthe time, which added another
level of complication, but I hadfive or six people around me
(17:07):
who were just incredible, whoreally stepped up and kind of
really kind of put likerelentless hard work into it.
So it wasn't just me, it wasthis kind of trusted team of
like war room people who kind ofreally got together and then,
obviously, covid hit.
So we took this massive fine.
The club was in turmoil, we wererelegated and then covid hit.
(17:30):
So it was.
It was.
It was kind of strange, though,but because we'd been relegated
and we were in a massive crisisalready, we'd already planned
for COVID without knowing it.
So we were actually in probablya stronger place than a lot of
the other premiership clubs,because when it hit we'd already
done all the.
Do we cut costs?
(17:50):
How do we survive this year?
How do we then come out theother side?
And and I think for me, when Ibecame CEO, it's quite a unique.
I was in quite a uniqueposition because I already had
like decades of friendship andrelationships with the players
and coaches and staff, so wealready had quite a like deep
level of trust and at that time,when there was just so much
(18:14):
like literally there was a fireto put out every four days there
was another fire it was justrelentless and I think having,
you know, that depth ofrelationship with all the key
people was very powerful and I'mnot sure we would have got it,
got through it, if we hadn't hadsuch and we'd already been
through so much like success andfailure together that you kind
(18:36):
of that it's just another battleto get through together.
Sue Anstiss (18:39):
As you said, you almost weren't expected to be
taking that role.
Did you feel the pressure tobehave in a certain way when you
came in as CEO, or were youable to manage the club in your
own style?
Lucy Wray (18:51):
No, I didn't.
I think I mean it was a reallysteep learning curve.
You know you're dealing withcrisis comms.
We were like taking up twopages of the sports press every
single day really much for sixmonths.
So it was at the time.
You're just as a rugby club.
You're not equipped really todeal with that.
You just don't have theexpertise or the knowledge of
club.
You're not equipped really todeal with that.
(19:11):
You just don't have theexpertise or the knowledge of.
So it was, it was very, verydifficult to kind of navigate
through that and I think thethings I learned were you know,
just, you double down on your,on your values and your kind of
moral compass, and for us it waslike we've always been a people
first club, people's caring forour people.
So let's put our people first.
(19:32):
Let's try and we probablydidn't get this right all the
time but try and communicate asmuch as possible, even if it was
not good news.
So have really honestconversations, even if it was
kind of you're telling themstuff they really don't want to
hear, but just communicate,communicate, communicate and and
, yeah, just I think having thatwar room of trusted people to
(19:55):
get through it, it was reallyjust making sure we had people
at the core of every decisionmaking, like our people it was.
In some ways, we have to justput a little bubble around us
and just get through it togetherand just kind of shut out all
the noise from the outside world.
We made a lot of mistakesthrough that period, but I think
we learned pretty quickly aswell.
Sue Anstiss (20:16):
And I have met some of the team that might be the
team in the core war room, asyou mentioned that worked with
you when you were CEO atSaracens, and I've only heard
positive things about them,about the culture that you
created, not just at that level,that pervaded the whole club
really.
So for you personally, what'syour lead leadership style?
How would you go about creatinga culture that impacts the
(20:39):
whole organization?
Lucy Wray (20:41):
I think um culture for me is it's like a set of
behaviors, so it's a collectiveof individual behaviors, and and
so therefore, for me, cultureis people, and I think there's a
phrase, there's a quote that mydad's always liked a lot and
taught me, which is people don'tcare how much you know until
(21:02):
they know how much you care.
So I think we've been very goodat putting people first and
really really caring for themAlmost.
So you kind of a culture islike a family, so everyone can
be themselves.
You have that sense of you know, security, honesty, you have
each other's back.
I think great cultures arealways evolving.
They're always trying to getbetter.
(21:22):
We never wanted to becomplacent as well, so we'd kind
of experienced a lot of success, but we just we'd never wanted
to be complacent.
So it's like how do you getbetter?
How do you get better?
How do you improve?
I think, in terms of my style ofleadership, I would I'd say
(21:42):
it's definitely evolved and Iprobably have adapted quite a
lot.
But I think centrally to it, Ikind of I try to live my values
and how I behave like 24 7.
You can't ever have a bad dayreally, because you know you
speak to someone badly, or youdon't value someone's opinion or
(22:02):
you know, and that is just so.
It's so damaging to a culturejust to have one day, one bad
day.
So I think you've got to haveone day, one bad day.
So I think you've got to, as aleader, that the fish thinks
from the head, that everythingcomes down from the top.
So you can't have a greatculture if you don't have great
people at the top who are reallyliving and breathing those
(22:25):
values of putting people firstand caring for people.
But I think that doesn't meanyou have to be soft.
You've got to have honestconversations.
But sometimes thoseconversations are really tough,
like telling someone who's beenpart of the club for 15 years
that it's time to move on.
I mean, that's a really toughconversation but you've got to
have it.
I think you've got to be quitedisciplined in decision-making,
(22:46):
quite focused.
You've got to know exactly.
You've got to have very goodattention to detail At times.
You know you can't makedecisions by committee all the
time.
You've got to make the decision.
You know you've got to takeaccountability for those
decisions and I think I'velearned.
You know you've always got tohave your team's backs.
So you know I always I would.
(23:09):
I would like to think I alwayskind of took responsibility for
something that went wrong.
Ultimately, you're at the top.
So if someone has made amistake, a, it's a mistake.
They've not done it on purpose,so you ought to help them learn
from that mistake.
But b ultimately it's yourfault because they maybe then
weren't equipped to deal withthat situation on their own, or
(23:29):
so I.
I guess that's my, I don't know.
Sue Anstiss (23:32):
I haven't been very succinct, but around the house,
it's no, yeah, no, but all such, all such useful and important
stuff, isn't it?
And I, I think at the time, Ithink you were one of only two
female CEOs of premiership clubsat the time and and obviously
it was a very male environmentof professional rugby.
So was that a challenge for youas a woman, and not say a young
(23:53):
, relatively young woman in thatrole too?
How did you kind of navigatethose pressures, or did you feel
there were pressures?
Lucy Wray (23:59):
um, yeah, I mean it was definitely when I first
became CEO.
I was also joining the kind ofinvestor board calls which were
100% male.
I also.
I mean there were a few of themthat my mum and I used to
giggle because it was duringCOVID, so everything was on Zoom
, but obviously I'd had mycamera off, but quite a few of
them I was breastfeeding becauseI had a newborn baby, and we
(24:22):
always used to laugh thinkingGod, can you imagine if they
knew what was going on behindthis camera.
But it definitely took me quitea bit of time to build up the
confidence to have a voice.
I think it's quite intimidating, so you have to work really
hard to gain their respect.
But I think once you've gottheir respect, then it's a great
(24:45):
environment.
I didn't, you know, I think itwas.
I probably had to change mylanguage slightly.
I would be more of a kind ofcollaborative type language.
So, oh, what do we think ofthis and do you think we could
do it a different way, whereas Ifelt you had to be much more
direct and much more.
I think this, this is not theway I would go.
(25:07):
I would go this way.
There was definitely.
I learned to change my languagein certain situations and be
much more kind of forceful anddirect, and I think I I kind of,
whenever there was a investorboard call meeting or I'd always
get the agenda and basicallyrevise for it like an exam.
So I'd like just take every,every kind of point on the
(25:29):
agenda and made sure I spoke toa broadcast expert or someone on
there so I knew exactly whatwas it.
It's probably like my geekyeducation and being a good
student, but I think that thengave me confidence that actually
I knew a lot more.
I'd done a lot more homework, Iknew exactly what I was talking
(25:50):
about.
So then I kind of, you know,found my voice to say no, that's
not right.
You know, that's not what.
Like the market's saying that'snot what's happening in our
sports, this is where we shouldbe going.
So I think that that kind ofhelped me as well that's really
interesting.
Sue Anstiss (26:04):
I spoke to Jo Coates on the podcast um, yeah,
from when she was at netball,but she'd obviously worked a lot
in football before and wetalked about that and her piece
was exactly that overpreparation for board meetings
to go in and know you knowabsolutely everything, to give
you that confidence to find yourvoice, which is sad.
But if that helps other womenmoving forward to hear that and
(26:25):
know that enables them to gainthat confidence to um yeah, I.
Lucy Wray (26:30):
I would say, though, that, even once you gain their
respect, it's a very, it's agreat environment to be in.
I found it a great environmentto be in, yeah, you know, after
a year or so, or maybe it wastwo, but they, you know, they'd
be like oh Lucy, what do youthink?
And I was like oh yes, I've gotit, I've made it, I'm good,
someone values my opinion andyou're.
Sue Anstiss (26:50):
You've also been a huge supporter of women's rugby,
both at Saracens, but you'realso a director of the PWR, the
Women's Rugby Premiership, andit's initiated, and I'm
interested in your thoughts onrugby generally.
But with the Women's RugbyWorld Cup taking place this
autumn, how hopeful and excitedare you about the opportunities
across women's rugby right?
Lucy Wray (27:10):
now I think women's rugby, especially in England, is
riding the crest of a wave.
Especially, I mean, the RFUhave been exceptionally good at
being the first mover advantageand investing in the women's
team and the Red Roses andlikewise having the first
professional club league.
So you've kind of got thatadvantage over the rest of the
(27:32):
world to.
You know, hopefully, the redroses, you know their favorites
and there's it's very easy tosay your favorites and then
actually go on to win it.
But there could be thisincredible moment next September
if they go on and do that andyou have got some big stars of
the game more so really in thewomen's game that are really
coming through as bigpersonalities, like Ellie Kildan
(27:55):
and obviously Alona Meyer, andI think that's only brilliant
for the women's rugby.
And also I read actually in theTimes today that there's now a
black market for women's rugbyWorld Cup tickets where they're
trying to sell tickets at like10 times the value, and so the
world rugby are trying to selltickets at like 10 times the
value, and so the the worldrugby are trying to crack down
on it.
But that's actually brilliantbecause it's obviously not great
(28:17):
, but brilliant in a certain wayin that you only get that kind
of black market, somethingthat's actually valuable and in
demand and people want to go to.
So from that perspective it'sbrilliant.
I guess my only is rugby, clubrugby, international rugby.
I think there's just a lack ofinvestment in the game, and the
(28:40):
problem for women's rugby isthat the club level is the same,
owners it's the same clubs,it's the same people and whilst
there's pressure, there's bigpressure on the economic model
and the financial sustainabilityof it all.
It's therefore whether you havethe rightness is that there
aren't the right building blocksin place to really capitalize
(29:16):
on what could explode.
You know you've got to.
You've got to get women's rugbyin schools, playing in schools.
You know, all schools, stateprimary, it's a big, big
grassroots participation.
You have to utilize this momentand that that will be
absolutely key to get right.
Hopefully we will get it rightit's interesting, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss (29:40):
on that ownership piece.
I was listening today to maggiemurphy on unexpected goals
podcast.
I give them a plug, anotherpodcast plug on this podcast,
but talking about that, thatevery WSL club now is owned by a
premier league club and sothere isn't that independence,
that opportunity to do thingsand shape things that are solely
focused.
And obviously you've got theLionesses, london Lionesses, in
(30:02):
the championship.
That do have that, a couple ofother clubs too.
But how, in terms of the PWRand women's professional rugby,
how much do you think thoseclubs should be emulating what
we've seen in premiership rugbyon the men's side, or is there
an opportunity to do things verydifferently and create more
potential across the women'sgame?
Lucy Wray (30:20):
I think they've got to do things differently.
They can't follow the men'smodel because the men's model
doesn't work.
It's not an economic model thatis financially sustainable, and
I think that's one of thethings the men's game is
struggling with at the momentand wrestling with is how you
know, and also the the broadcastmarket's completely changing.
(30:41):
You're not gonna get big checksfrom broadcasters, you know.
Necessarily in the futureyou've got to tell a completely
different narrative.
I think you know women'srugby's rugby, has to really
think outside the box and thinkvery carefully about where they
go next and how they capitaliseon next year at club level, and
(31:02):
I strongly believe it needs tobe look and feel very, very
different to where the men'sgame's gone.
Sue Anstiss (31:09):
We could do a whole podcast on that.
We can come back and talk toyou again on that one.
We could yeah, we could.
So, along with rugby, you'realso doing a huge amount in
netball.
You're co-owner of the LondonMavericks and you also sit on
the board of the Netball SuperLeague and I'm, as mentioned
earlier, incredibly proud to beon your board at London
Mavericks.
But just going back, what wasit that inspired you and Olivia
(31:30):
Hall to invest in LondonMavericks?
Lucy Wray (31:32):
Firstly, I was incredibly lucky to meet Olivia,
or to be introduced to Olivia,and she was at the time
incredibly passionate about theperception of women and girls
and raising the standard andtreatment of women and girls
more generally, and she believespassionately that women's sport
can be a massive lever for that.
And so we were introducedbecause I kind of knew a bit
(31:55):
about women's sport and we justgot on.
So that was just a veryfortunate meeting for us both.
But in terms of Mavericks, Ithink we both looked at it.
We weren't we obviously wepassionate about sport.
We weren't actually passionatenetballers or netball fans or so
, which I think was actuallyquite good because we looked at
(32:18):
it through a very almostdispassionate like kind of angle
.
In terms of actually the rawmaterials of netball and the and
the foundations of netball as asport to turn professional are
really quite compelling becauseyou've got this massive
participation base.
You know it's.
It's bigger than men's andwomen's rugby put together.
(32:38):
I think it's still three orfour times bigger than girls
football.
It's huge.
It's played in every school.
Everyone you speak to has someconnection to netball.
Either they've played it or thedaughter plays it, or, and so
you know you've got this hugeuntapped potential which a lot
of sports don't have.
So that was a big kind of tick.
(32:59):
In terms of taking itprofessional, it's actually a
relatively low cost base becauseyou just have 10 players in
your netball super league squad.
So it's not like rugby orcricket or football where you
need much, much bigger squads,sometimes being able to pay
players, put a really goodperformance environment around
them.
It's a kind of lower cost entrypoint to other team sport.
(33:23):
It's quite unique in that it's afemale-led sport, so it's much
bigger than the men's game,although we'd love to see men's
netball get bigger because wekind of believe that's really
important for the sport as awhole.
So for all those things we feltactually women's sports going
on this massive growthtrajectory.
So you know it's growingexponentially.
(33:44):
Over the next 10 years it'sgoing to be the biggest growth
area for sport in general.
So women's sport great Netballyes, huge participation,
untapped, low-cost space, sportin general.
So women's sport great Netballyes, huge participation,
untapped, low cost space.
And London I think London wasimportant for us as well.
So for all of those reasons,and then you kind of actually,
so you're kind of using yourhead to make those investment
(34:05):
decisions and then very, veryquickly, your heart's completely
evolved as well.
Sue Anstiss (34:10):
And what surprised you most in terms of owning and
running a netball club incomparison to owning a rugby
club, and I know the obviouslythe difference in the history
and the size of.
But what have been some of thekey differences there you've
seen in this first year?
Lucy Wray (34:24):
I think you know the netball is very much like a like
any small startup business.
You know you've got verylimited resource, you've got
people who are having to wearseven different hats and be, you
know, spin about 10 differentplates and it's really fast
moving and I love all that.
So I love that environment.
(34:44):
In that respect it's notdifferent to any kind of startup
.
You know, small business whereyou're building a brand and
you're building an audience andyou're trying to're building a
brand and you're building anaudience and you're trying to
maximize your revenue growth andyou're putting in all the like,
foundations and pillars to dothat, whilst also you know
setting up your performanceenvironment.
But actually the performanceenvironment is big, not the easy
(35:04):
bit, but the bit that actually,if you've got the right people,
happens quite quickly and, as Isaid, if you put people and
player welfare at the center ofthat, can be really powerful.
So it's more the business sidewhich takes a bit of time.
But in terms of netball andrugby they're not hugely
dissimilar in terms of you knowthere's always more calls on
your capital than capitalavailable.
(35:26):
So it's always this difficultyof kind of weighing up your
decisions of where you spendmoney and where it's going to
kind of be best placed for kindof long-term future growth.
I think Olivia and I are verymuch focused on long-term.
We're not kind of trying tobuild something in 10 months
that wins one thing and thendisappears.
(35:47):
You know, we want to buildsomething that's successful on
and off the court for the verylong term, has a kind of long
lasting positive impact likefans, community players right at
the center of it, center of allour decision making.
We're trying to be asdisruptive as possible because
we'd love to kind of be able toprove a different model or a
(36:08):
different economic model of howyou can do women's sport, how
you can do it independently withlike dedicated resource, like
patient capital, stableownership over the long term and
what are you hoping?
Sue Anstiss (36:19):
you talk about that success and you know the
long-term building, but whatyou're hoping success might be
for this year, on and off thecourt, well, I I kind of don't
like to talk about outcomes, Ilike to talk about processes.
Lucy Wray (36:33):
So I kind of think if you get your processes right,
the outcomes will look afteritself.
So I look at ourselves and say,actually we've really looked
after the players as well as wecan.
(36:54):
We've looked after our staff aswell as we can.
We've tried to do the best bythe whole netball community, by
our fans, like we've got to havefun, like it's got to be a fun
journey.
It's obviously got to befocused and we're trying to.
Now, obviously, if we kind ofsee no progress, then we're
obviously we're doing somethingwrong and we are ultimately
(37:17):
we're very competitive.
You know, someone like TamsinGreenway and Cam and Nikki
Austin, your coaching team,they're definitely all going to
be wanting to win.
But you know, I think for usthat's not the be all and end
all.
It would be incredible if wegot any success and we got to
playoffs.
When you win a trophy, it'slike you're euphoric for 48
(37:41):
hours and then you feel the sameas you did the week before.
So it doesn't have that kind oflong lasting impact on people's
lives.
I think what does is creatingthe right culture, the right
environment and trying to, youknow, trying to prove, be
competitive on and off the court.
How can we be the best at foran experience?
How can we give the best matchday experience?
(38:02):
How can we get the mostsponsorship?
How can we drive our audiencegrows?
Sue Anstiss (38:06):
how can we deliver brilliant content like that's
how we're like, pushingourselves to constantly do
better and we talk a lot, don'twe, about social purpose and
obviously winning and winningtrophies does help with that
also, because you've got abigger voice and awareness of
what you're doing.
But how tough is it to balancethose commercial aspects that
you've mentioned?
They're running a sports teamand then also maintaining the
(38:29):
values and ensuring that you arehaving that wider social impact
yeah, I, I personally don'tthink they're two silos.
Lucy Wray (38:37):
I think you, you know they can sit hand in hand.
You mentioned I sat on theboard of benchmark sport.
One of their businesses isthink beyond, and they have a
great line which is basicallypurpose-driven growth, and I
think that's that's you canreally deliver, that you can
really deliver a lot of impactand purpose, but whilst also
(38:58):
growing your brand.
And I think they can sittogether and I think you know
brands really resonate with thatand your, your kind of fans and
your community 100% resonatethat.
I think their relationship witha club goes far beyond the
final whistle on the court.
You want them to feel proud ofsomething that your club stands
(39:19):
for, something more.
So I believe that they sit handin hand.
Yes, you can't be losing moreand more money year on year and
investing then more and more inyour impact because it just so,
like you said, the morecommercially successful you can
be, the more you can thendeliver on the impact side as
well.
So I really believe they sitvery much hand in hand and work
(39:43):
together.
Sue Anstiss (39:44):
And it's obviously great news that this year all
the games within the netballsuper league will be broadcast
on Sky or the BBC, which isfantastic.
And we've mentioned the successof pwr, with elona mayer across
and the increase in terms of uhattendances at some of those
games, but sadly neither thenetball super league or the pwr
have title sponsors right now.
(40:05):
I was going to say to you whydo you think?
That is what you know.
I really I'm really interestedin your thoughts of despite that
success and the growth ofwomen's sport and all we're
talking about andprofessionalism, but you know we
haven't seen sponsors flockingto those leagues I think you
know success isn't builtovernight and and so neither of
(40:25):
these leagues you know they'restill in their infancy.
Lucy Wray (40:28):
You know that, yes, they're putting in it's a steep
growth rate and they're puttingin all the time and all of that
but and the right foundations,but it's just going to take time
.
You've got to again likesponsors aren't just going to do
it because, oh, it's nice andit's women's sport.
You know they need ajustification, so you've got to
give them that justification.
That takes time to build andit's definitely there.
(40:51):
But I do think the those rightsneed to be sold completely
differently, with a differentnarrative and very differently
to men's sport.
I think there are very differentlevers to pull when you're
selling that sponsorship.
But I think it will come.
It's just you're fighting inthat kind of squeezed middle
market where everyone's goingafter that you know, half a
(41:13):
million plus to a million ofsponsorship where you're
fighting with all the men'smen's rugby clubs, men's leagues
, men's football clubs at acertain level are all in that
market together.
You're all fighting for thatspend.
So I think it's it's a tougharea to be, but I think it will
come.
I think it just it needs theright level investment and it
needs really patient capital,but it will come.
Sue Anstiss (41:35):
Fabulous to hear, and I know that you're looking
at investing in more women'ssports properties right now.
I know you've been exploringsports beyond netball and rugby,
so where do you find thatbalance between finding those
properties that will beprofitable commercially and that
can have that significantsocial impact as well, too?
Are there specific sports orteams or leagues?
(41:56):
What are the drivers for youthere?
Lucy Wray (41:58):
um, I think a bit like we looked at the, the
netball opportunity it's youknow you do a bit of a market
analysis and your due diligenceand then you kind of get a gut
feel of the people you'reinvesting in and you know
essentially you're investing inand you know essentially you're
investing in people, the peoplewho are running it, the people
who are at the top, and I thinkwe're at the moment just
(42:20):
spending a lot of time justunderstanding, talking to as
many people as we can,understanding what the
opportunities are.
Olivia and I have slightlydifferent kind of, I guess,
investment criteria, which isgood.
It's a good balance, like we'reboth looking at it from a
slightly different lens, and shesometimes makes her own
investments and likewise we doour own investments.
(42:40):
So, yeah, I think it's justwe're kind of in that learning
phase at the moment, seeingwhere the opportunities are, and
I think you've got to have abit of a passion for whatever
you invest in.
So I think there are somethings we've kind of not looked
at, just because we're morepassionate about team sport, for
example, than individual sport.
So there's certain criteria wewould look at.
Sue Anstiss (43:04):
And just finally, obviously there is more money
coming into women's sports.
We've said lots of investors inthis space, but if we were to
encourage other brands andinvestors to come and look at
women's sport right now, whatwould you say?
What would your recommendationbe as to to why that is a good
commercial option?
Lucy Wray (43:21):
well, I think I'll need to fact check or you might
need to fact check myself on meon this, but you know, I think
they're saying that the women'ssports industry is going to go
from 3 billion to 23 billion inthe next 10 years.
So, like massive, massivegrowth.
It's going to outstrip growthof any other sport and, yes,
you're starting from a very lowlevel, but that's a huge
(43:44):
opportunity.
I think if I was investor, Iwould say you've got to be
patient.
You've got to look at this overthe long term.
You're not going to do anythingin 12 months, 24 months.
You've got to look at it.
Okay, what can we achieve overthe next 10 years, 15 years?
So I think you need to look atit with that lens on.
You need to be patient, butit's a huge growth potential and
(44:06):
I think obviously there's somewomen's sports will do better
than others.
So you've got to look at itlike you would weigh up any
business opportunity.
But I think, beyond the actualinvestment itself, sport is an
amazing thing to invest inbecause you learn so much.
You meet incredible people likethese peak performance people
who don't really understand whatmediocre means, and you kind of
(44:29):
go on this like passionateroller coaster journey of
winning, losing and like magicmoments with people, even in the
like depths of despair, whenyou like lost everything, you
still learn something throughthat and you get these
incredible bonds.
I just don't think that happensin in many things other than
sport.
In many things other than sport.
Sue Anstiss (44:55):
It was great to catch up with Lucy and I'm so
impressed with all she's doingin sport and excited to see the
impact of the London Maverickson and off the court.
If you'd like to hear from moretrailblazers, there are over
200 episodes of the GameChangers that are all free to
listen to on podcast platformsor on our website at
fearlesswomencouk.
(45:15):
My other guests have includedelite athletes, coaches,
entrepreneurs, broadcasters,scientists, journalists and CEOs
all women who are changing thegame in sport.
If netball is your thing, thenother guests have included
Pamela Cookie, jo Coates, leilaGusketh, sue Campbell, liz Nicol
and Serena Guthrie.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
(45:38):
can also find out more about theWomen's Sport Collective, a
free, inclusive community forall women working in sport.
We now have over 10,000 membersacross the world, so please do
come and join us or tell otherwomen working in sport about us.
The whole of my book game on theunstoppable rise of women's
sport is also free to listen toon the podcast.
(45:58):
Every episode of series 13 isme reading a chapter of the book
.
A huge thank you again to sportengland for backing the game
changers and the women's sportcollective with a national
lottery award, and to sam Walkerat what Goes On Media, who does
such an excellent job as ourexecutive producer.
Thank you also to my lovelycolleague at Fearless Women,
(46:20):
kate Hannan.
You can find the Game Changerson all podcast platforms, so do
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Come and say hello on socialmedia, where you'll find me.
At sue anstis, the game changes.
Fearless women in sport.
Hello and welcome to The Game Changers.
I'm Sue Anstiss, and this isthe podcast where you'll hear
from trailblazing women in sportwho are knocking down barriers
and challenging the status quofor women and girls everywhere.
What can we learn from theirjourneys as we explore key
issues around equality in sportand beyond?
A huge thank you to ourpartners, Sport England, who
(00:25):
support the game changersthrough a National Lottery Award
.
I'm so pleased to be talking toLucy Wray today.
Lucy is a much experiencedsports leader who is dedicated
to shaping the future of women'ssport.
Lucy was group CEO of Saracensfrom 2020 to 2024, steering the
(00:47):
organisation through the men'srelegation to the Championship,
covid and a capital raise, andbrought the club back to the
place where both the men's andwomen were champions of England.
In 2024, Lucy became theco-owner of London Mavericks
Netball, one of eight franchisesplaying in the new Netball
Super League.
This has also held an array ofboard positions across sport,
(01:10):
including the Saracens Group,Premiership Rugby, Premiership
Women's Rugby, the eSportsAwards, which she co-owns with
her husband, Benchmark Sports,and Netball Super League.
Lucy was also a very successfulfemale athlete who captained
the Wales lacrosse team, playingin three World Cups, and has
had over 70 international capsto her name.
(01:30):
So, Lucy, should we start withlacrosse?
That's something I didn't knowabout you until you're obviously
very humble because you haven'treally talked about that.
I wasn't aware of that, but wasthat always the sport for you,
and what did you love about it?
Lucy Wray (01:45):
Yeah, I think it started at school.
I went to a lacrosse playingschool.
There aren't actually that manylacrosse playing schools and I
guess it was.
I was at a pretty academicschool and I was never kind of
the top 25 academic, butactually sport I suddenly found
I could be not not the best, butin the top 25.
So when you kind of get thatslight recognition, you know,
(02:07):
like it really kind of instillsin you that kind of desire.
I think I've always been verycompetitive and very driven,
probably got that from my mamaand dad.
So, yes, I think there's.
I just love the game oflacrosse.
My body was very broken afterthree world cups so I had to
stop.
I ruptured my ACL and I had adisc bulge and all sorts of
(02:29):
things, but otherwise I'd keepplaying now but it's as close as
I got to playing professionalsport, although it was
completely amateur.
But going on tours to Americaand seeing you know American
sport, american college sport,is incredible.
So yeah, it just lit somethinginside me and I loved it and I
think my dad watched everysingle lacrosse match I ever
(02:50):
played in oh.
I went to Bristol Universityand he used to drive to Bristol
from London every Wednesdayafternoon to watch me play don't
let me tell my kids that,because they're at university
now and we don't always get downfor all of their games.
So, uh, he set a very high barthere, didn't he?
He has, and now we've got todeliver the same for our kids.
Sue Anstiss (03:09):
I'm What going to be on the road a lot, I think
and what other sports did youenjoy so obviously you found
lacrosse at school, but were youan athlete across many other
sports as well?
Lucy Wray (03:22):
of county tennis and I threw the javelin and I did a
bit of county cricket as well.
So I did multiple differentsports and my family sports mad.
My grandmother was the Danishjunior tennis champion and my
grandfather was a scratch golfer, played cricket and rugby when
(03:46):
I was young and so I kind ofgrew up around the teams and
always being a cricket club orthe rugby club on a Saturday or
Sunday throwing a ball aroundthe whole time.
I was a bit of a tomboy so Iwas like never in dresses.
I was always covered in muddoing something.
Sue Anstiss (03:55):
And do you think if rugby had been more prevalent
in your school at the time, doyou think rugby would have been
a sport that you would haveplayed?
Lucy Wray (04:06):
I definitely.
I tried rugby in my teenageyears when my dad first got
involved with Saracen.
I actually went to a fewwomen's sessions and when I went
to Bristol University I triedit again.
I think I was a bit I was so inlove with lacrosse that I was
always going to be the winner,but I definitely tried it.
I'm not sure I was brave enoughto take the hits, to be honest.
(04:26):
Yeah, I think it's a great game.
I loved it.
I always loved throwing a rugbyball around and learning how to
do a spin pass off both handsand all of that.
So maybe if it had been biggerand in schools it would have
been uh, it would have been anoption for me.
Sue Anstiss (04:39):
I do reflect on that myself, but as my kids keep
telling me I don't think I was,I wasn't brave enough.
It was just starting atLoughborough when I was there.
I think I wasn't brave enough.
I'm not sure I'm brave enough?
I don't know although youplayed lacrosse, and that's a
pretty scary physical sport attimes too, isn't it?
yeah, you do get bruised arms alot in lacrosse you mentioned
there that your family beeninvolved in Saracen since 1995
(05:02):
when your dad first invested inthe club and you were still in
school at the time.
So how much was the club andrugby a part of your life
growing up?
Lucy Wray (05:11):
It very quickly became a big part of our lives.
I remember as a little girlwell, actually I was a little
girl, I was about 15-16 but westarted kind of as a whole
family going to the Saracensgames every weekend.
And I know my granny when shewas alive, granny Ray, she kind
of became the universal GrannyRay for the whole Saracens team.
(05:34):
So we kind of it just becamepart of our extended family, so
all the players and theirfamilies and the staff.
Very, very quickly we becamelike this giant kind of family
and it was really special and atthe time it was exciting.
It was the dawn ofprofessionalism and you had
players like Francois Pienaar,philippe Seller and Michael
(05:55):
Liner, kieran Bracken, richardHill, like all of these, and you
were kind of, you know, ridingthis wave of excitement with
them because the game waschanging so quickly.
You know riding this wave ofexcitement with them because the
game was changing so quickly.
And I just remember being partof that.
You know 17, 18, it was just,yeah, I loved it.
It was like the best investmentmy dad had ever made, in my
opinion at that age.
Sue Anstiss (06:14):
I'm interested because you mentioned and I know
we'll talk a lot about your dadand his support, but in terms
of your mum's support and yourmum's involved in support of him
within Saracens and her kind ofimpact on you and your life,
then yeah, my mum's an amazingwoman.
Lucy Wray (06:30):
I think I get all my inner strength from her because
actually my dad tries to avoidconflict at all costs, whereas
my mum will hit it straight on.
So I think I kind of get a fairand she's also ultra
competitive.
So I definitely get a lot ofthat from her.
But she was like very much partof the journey.
She came to every game, lovedit as much as it was a very and
(06:54):
even now today going to theSaracens games is like a big
family thing, like we have a boxat Stonehenge Stadium, but it's
just full of kids, full offamily, cousins, like aunts,
uncles, friends.
It's never been a kind ofcorporate thing for us, it's
just a nice way every weekend tobe together.
Sue Anstiss (07:14):
Yeah, that's so true.
I was very lucky to come andjoin you before Christmas
actually for one of the gamesthere, and I absolutely felt
that I came away and said I'venever been in a box like it and
the fact that there was familyand kids and it just felt very
like you were a lovely familyparty and then we got to watch
amazing rugby as well too.
So, yeah, I definitely feltthat from being there.
Did seeing your dad involved atSaracens inspire you and your
(07:38):
brother to want to work in inthe sports sector when you were
young, or was it just a kind offelt like a natural part of life
?
Lucy Wray (07:44):
Both my mum and dad have both taught us the
importance of kind of caring forpeople, putting people first,
investing in great people, andthat's what he's brilliant at.
He's brilliant at finding greatpeople and backing them for the
long term to create successfulbusinesses.
So I remember he was likeSaracens was his sounds wrong,
but it was his hobby, it was hispassion, but it wasn't his
(08:07):
business.
His business was, you know,investing in Domino's Pizza and
properties and Telco and youknow all manner of different
things.
My brother and I have that kindof desire to build businesses
and run businesses, but we alsohave the passion of sport.
So we've both just been luckyenough to kind of combine the
(08:30):
two in terms of I think we lovethe performance side of force
but we equally love the businessside of sport and that's what
my particular passion is, thatreal business side of sport.
So obviously I absolutely lovethe performance environment.
I loved it when I playedlacrosse but I equally love
everything off the pitch, offthe court.
(08:51):
You know, building the brand,building a sustainable economic
model, bringing in sponsors.
You know how do you grow yoursocial platform, everything that
for me and I think you know,our parents kind of gave us both
, and then we were just so luckyto have grown up with all these
amazing sporting talents aroundus.
So when I was seven we had ayoung Australian cricketer come
(09:13):
and live with us, who was JustinLanger, who turned out to be
like one of the best Australiancricketers he lived with us for
he was like my big brother,because he lived with us for
three summers and then he cameback with his wife and then his
daughter worked for our eventsbusiness for a few years and
(09:41):
we've kind of followed hiscareer.
People who've, you know,reached the very top of their
careers and been so successfuland high performing has been, I
guess, an incredible privilegealong the way.
Sue Anstiss (09:52):
And you mentioned that you're at Bristol
University, but you studiedlanguages at university, so what
was your ambition when you wentthere?
Was that a vocational thingthat you thought you might do
more in in the space oflanguages?
Lucy Wray (10:03):
you're shaking your head um, I think I was.
I can't remember you told methis, but someone said to me
that you should just picksomething at university that you
love, and it doesn't reallymatter where it might lead.
You know, just do something youlove that.
And I just happen to have anincredibly good French teacher
(10:24):
at school, and you know, someteachers can really inspire you.
I just loved my French teacherand yeah, so I kind of went
through languages not thinkingI'd ever have a career in
languages.
It was just I, you know, wantedto go to Bristol University,
enjoy university life, and Ichose something I was really
loved and didn't really thinkabout career from it, though I
(10:44):
don't think that ever crossed mymind.
Sue Anstiss (10:46):
And what were your first roles out of university?
Where did you go to from there?
Lucy Wray (10:51):
So I went to an events business, mainly
corporate events.
I like that.
I'm quite bit of aperfectionist, I'm quite like
detailed and I want everythingdone a certain way.
So that kind of suited me interms of the organization.
I'm quite a people person sothat kind of came easy to me in
terms of building thoserelationships and being kind of,
(11:12):
you know, front of things andchatting away to people.
So that I kind of went down theevents route.
But I think at the time I hadthe opportunity to try and get
into the 2005 Lacrosse World Cupteam.
So I was really training prettyhard to get into that and so I
got into that.
(11:32):
And then the next four years Iwas kind of doing the events,
but part-time but training, andI obviously very privileged to
be able to do that and to beable to take my sport, because
there's obviously no funding inthose days.
You paid five or six thousandpounds for the privilege of
going to the lacrosse world cup.
(11:52):
But it was just amazing that Icould get to do that and I had I
ruptured my ACL at the time.
It was awful when I was 16 or17 actually I think that was the
kind of making of me because mydad had just got involved in
Saracen.
So he kind of asked theSaracen's team like where, where
(12:14):
should Lucy have her knee done?
And how rehab?
And there was a great strengthand conditioning trainer who
basically took me under his wingand I think I'd always been
good at sport because I've gotgood hand-eye coordination but
I'd never been like that fit orthat agile.
That never come that naturallyto me.
But through that rehab I becameI became a proper athlete
(12:34):
because I had someone who reallyknew and in those days, like
women's sport, you just didn'tget that level of expertise.
There was just nothing there.
So in terms of I was just solucky that my rehab and strength
and conditioning then was justso good that it made me into a.
I think I got the very best outmy capability as a lacrosse
(12:55):
player.
So, yes, I loved that the worldcup in 2005 and then 2009 and
2013 and then I stopped.
But so I was.
I think lacrosse was reallydominant in more than career for
that.
Until I was about kind of 28,lacrosse is everything.
And then I bought a smallevents company called nbn events
(13:17):
and which my brother now owns,so it's kind of passed through.
We did like rugby world cupdinners and rider cup lunches
and, uh, sporting speaker of theyear, things like that.
So all events using kind of allof our kind of corporate
relationships, but centeredaround sport.
Yeah, yeah, so we built thatand it's a.
(13:38):
It's a really good littlebusiness still today.
And um, and then I think youmentioned in the intro, my
husband and I founded theesports awards, which tom takes
all the credit for because he'sdone all the hard work.
But, um, we started it inlondon and now it's been to
texas, vegas, and um, now it'sin riad and all of these things
(13:59):
have kind of you learn so muchjust in different industries and
different things, how they work.
I mean, the esports world isincredible in terms of how
they've harnessed audiencegrowth and digital and social
and influences etc.
So how you learn that and applya bit of that to traditional
sport.
And yeah, I just, I think Ifind that I just find the whole
(14:21):
business world of sportfascinating for me that's really
interesting and we're going tocome on to talk about London
Mavericks in a minute.
Sue Anstiss (14:27):
But I know, having sat in board meetings with you
and here, that you're bringingin all that expertise and
awareness of what's happening atthe cutting edge of other
sports too, and that is anamazing place to be able to kind
of coalesce all that skills andknowledge, as you say, across
other sports and other sectorstoo.
Lucy Wray (14:44):
I think I'm really lucky that as a family and dad's
invested in.
You know like tens of tens 20s,30s, 40s, 50s of different
businesses, all from differentsectors.
So you know and you just learnfrom each one, whether they're
consumer, you knowpharmaceuticals, like you.
Just you're constantly andthat's where I think my dad's
(15:07):
been really good at kind of heprobably sends us both like 10
emails a day about differentbusinesses, just updates.
So like this is happening, thisis happening.
So you just you're kind of likeit's just an incredible
learning journey that constantly, the whole time.
Yeah, and he does sometimescheck that we're opening all the
emails, but we do.
Sue Anstiss (15:29):
So, from that work in the event space space, you
then took on a variety ofleadership roles at Saracens and
in 2020 you became CEO and, asI mentioned in the instruction,
it's quite a tough time for theclub.
It had just been found guiltyof breaching premiership salary
cap in the previous three yearsand the men's team would then be
relegated to the championshipthe following year.
(15:49):
So how did it feel to be takingover as CEO?
It was difficult time for theclub, yeah it was incredibly
difficult.
Lucy Wray (15:57):
I think I maybe assumed the role of CEO by
default because nobody elsewanted to do it at the time and
I'm not looking at I'm not sureanyone thought I could do it.
But actually one of the thingsI'm most motivated by is proving
people wrong.
So if someone says I can't doit, I really then go out of my
way to make sure I can do it.
(16:18):
But I mean it had been so thatthe club obviously still is.
But it was such a big, you know, part of our lives for so long
by that stage, and not just theclub but you know the Saracens
High School and the SaracensFoundation and like the whole
community and the fans and stuff, and obviously you know dad had
kind of poured his heart andsoul into it by then for two
(16:42):
decades.
So obviously I was highlymotivated to make sure we got
through it, we survived it, soso that was a kind of huge I
think.
If you have that level ofmotivation it's quite powerful.
I was six months pregnant atthe time, which added another
level of complication, but I hadfive or six people around me
(17:07):
who were just incredible, whoreally stepped up and kind of
really kind of put likerelentless hard work into it.
So it wasn't just me, it wasthis kind of trusted team of
like war room people who kind ofreally got together and then,
obviously, covid hit.
So we took this massive fine.
The club was in turmoil, we wererelegated and then covid hit.
(17:30):
So it was.
It was.
It was kind of strange, though,but because we'd been relegated
and we were in a massive crisisalready, we'd already planned
for COVID without knowing it.
So we were actually in probablya stronger place than a lot of
the other premiership clubs,because when it hit we'd already
done all the.
Do we cut costs?
(17:50):
How do we survive this year?
How do we then come out theother side?
And and I think for me, when Ibecame CEO, it's quite a unique.
I was in quite a uniqueposition because I already had
like decades of friendship andrelationships with the players
and coaches and staff, so wealready had quite a like deep
level of trust and at that time,when there was just so much
(18:14):
like literally there was a fireto put out every four days there
was another fire it was justrelentless and I think having,
you know, that depth ofrelationship with all the key
people was very powerful and I'mnot sure we would have got it,
got through it, if we hadn't hadsuch and we'd already been
through so much like success andfailure together that you kind
(18:36):
of that it's just another battleto get through together.
Sue Anstiss (18:39):
As you said, you almost weren't expected to be
taking that role.
Did you feel the pressure tobehave in a certain way when you
came in as CEO, or were youable to manage the club in your
own style?
Lucy Wray (18:51):
No, I didn't.
I think I mean it was a reallysteep learning curve.
You know you're dealing withcrisis comms.
We were like taking up twopages of the sports press every
single day really much for sixmonths.
So it was at the time.
You're just as a rugby club.
You're not equipped really todeal with that.
You just don't have theexpertise or the knowledge of
club.
You're not equipped really todeal with that.
(19:11):
You just don't have theexpertise or the knowledge of.
So it was, it was very, verydifficult to kind of navigate
through that and I think thethings I learned were you know,
just, you double down on your,on your values and your kind of
moral compass, and for us it waslike we've always been a people
first club, people's caring forour people.
So let's put our people first.
(19:32):
Let's try and we probablydidn't get this right all the
time but try and communicate asmuch as possible, even if it was
not good news.
So have really honestconversations, even if it was
kind of you're telling themstuff they really don't want to
hear, but just communicate,communicate, communicate and and
, yeah, just I think having thatwar room of trusted people to
(19:55):
get through it, it was reallyjust making sure we had people
at the core of every decisionmaking, like our people it was.
In some ways, we have to justput a little bubble around us
and just get through it togetherand just kind of shut out all
the noise from the outside world.
We made a lot of mistakesthrough that period, but I think
we learned pretty quickly aswell.
Sue Anstiss (20:16):
And I have met some of the team that might be the
team in the core war room, asyou mentioned that worked with
you when you were CEO atSaracens, and I've only heard
positive things about them,about the culture that you
created, not just at that level,that pervaded the whole club
really.
So for you personally, what'syour lead leadership style?
How would you go about creatinga culture that impacts the
(20:39):
whole organization?
Lucy Wray (20:41):
I think um culture for me is it's like a set of
behaviors, so it's a collectiveof individual behaviors, and and
so therefore, for me, cultureis people, and I think there's a
phrase, there's a quote that mydad's always liked a lot and
taught me, which is people don'tcare how much you know until
(21:02):
they know how much you care.
So I think we've been very goodat putting people first and
really really caring for themAlmost.
So you kind of a culture islike a family, so everyone can
be themselves.
You have that sense of you know, security, honesty, you have
each other's back.
I think great cultures arealways evolving.
They're always trying to getbetter.
(21:22):
We never wanted to becomplacent as well, so we'd kind
of experienced a lot of success, but we just we'd never wanted
to be complacent.
So it's like how do you getbetter?
How do you get better?
How do you improve?
I think, in terms of my style ofleadership, I would I'd say
(21:42):
it's definitely evolved and Iprobably have adapted quite a
lot.
But I think centrally to it, Ikind of I try to live my values
and how I behave like 24 7.
You can't ever have a bad dayreally, because you know you
speak to someone badly, or youdon't value someone's opinion or
(22:02):
you know, and that is just so.
It's so damaging to a culturejust to have one day, one bad
day.
So I think you've got to haveone day, one bad day.
So I think you've got to, as aleader, that the fish thinks
from the head, that everythingcomes down from the top.
So you can't have a greatculture if you don't have great
people at the top who are reallyliving and breathing those
(22:25):
values of putting people firstand caring for people.
But I think that doesn't meanyou have to be soft.
You've got to have honestconversations.
But sometimes thoseconversations are really tough,
like telling someone who's beenpart of the club for 15 years
that it's time to move on.
I mean, that's a really toughconversation but you've got to
have it.
I think you've got to be quitedisciplined in decision-making,
(22:46):
quite focused.
You've got to know exactly.
You've got to have very goodattention to detail At times.
You know you can't makedecisions by committee all the
time.
You've got to make the decision.
You know you've got to takeaccountability for those
decisions and I think I'velearned.
You know you've always got tohave your team's backs.
So you know I always I would.
(23:09):
I would like to think I alwayskind of took responsibility for
something that went wrong.
Ultimately, you're at the top.
So if someone has made amistake, a, it's a mistake.
They've not done it on purpose,so you ought to help them learn
from that mistake.
But b ultimately it's yourfault because they maybe then
weren't equipped to deal withthat situation on their own, or
(23:29):
so I.
I guess that's my, I don't know.
Sue Anstiss (23:32):
I haven't been very succinct, but around the house,
it's no, yeah, no, but all such, all such useful and important
stuff, isn't it?
And I, I think at the time, Ithink you were one of only two
female CEOs of premiership clubsat the time and and obviously
it was a very male environmentof professional rugby.
So was that a challenge for youas a woman, and not say a young
(23:53):
, relatively young woman in thatrole too?
How did you kind of navigatethose pressures, or did you feel
there were pressures?
Lucy Wray (23:59):
um, yeah, I mean it was definitely when I first
became CEO.
I was also joining the kind ofinvestor board calls which were
100% male.
I also.
I mean there were a few of themthat my mum and I used to
giggle because it was duringCOVID, so everything was on Zoom
, but obviously I'd had mycamera off, but quite a few of
them I was breastfeeding becauseI had a newborn baby, and we
(24:22):
always used to laugh thinkingGod, can you imagine if they
knew what was going on behindthis camera.
But it definitely took me quitea bit of time to build up the
confidence to have a voice.
I think it's quite intimidating, so you have to work really
hard to gain their respect.
But I think once you've gottheir respect, then it's a great
(24:45):
environment.
I didn't, you know, I think itwas.
I probably had to change mylanguage slightly.
I would be more of a kind ofcollaborative type language.
So, oh, what do we think ofthis and do you think we could
do it a different way, whereas Ifelt you had to be much more
direct and much more.
I think this, this is not theway I would go.
(25:07):
I would go this way.
There was definitely.
I learned to change my languagein certain situations and be
much more kind of forceful anddirect, and I think I I kind of,
whenever there was a investorboard call meeting or I'd always
get the agenda and basicallyrevise for it like an exam.
So I'd like just take every,every kind of point on the
(25:29):
agenda and made sure I spoke toa broadcast expert or someone on
there so I knew exactly whatwas it.
It's probably like my geekyeducation and being a good
student, but I think that thengave me confidence that actually
I knew a lot more.
I'd done a lot more homework, Iknew exactly what I was talking
(25:50):
about.
So then I kind of, you know,found my voice to say no, that's
not right.
You know, that's not what.
Like the market's saying that'snot what's happening in our
sports, this is where we shouldbe going.
So I think that that kind ofhelped me as well that's really
interesting.
Sue Anstiss (26:04):
I spoke to Jo Coates on the podcast um, yeah,
from when she was at netball,but she'd obviously worked a lot
in football before and wetalked about that and her piece
was exactly that overpreparation for board meetings
to go in and know you knowabsolutely everything, to give
you that confidence to find yourvoice, which is sad.
But if that helps other womenmoving forward to hear that and
(26:25):
know that enables them to gainthat confidence to um yeah, I.
Lucy Wray (26:30):
I would say, though, that, even once you gain their
respect, it's a very, it's agreat environment to be in.
I found it a great environmentto be in, yeah, you know, after
a year or so, or maybe it wastwo, but they, you know, they'd
be like oh Lucy, what do youthink?
And I was like oh yes, I've gotit, I've made it, I'm good,
someone values my opinion andyou're.
Sue Anstiss (26:50):
You've also been a huge supporter of women's rugby,
both at Saracens, but you'realso a director of the PWR, the
Women's Rugby Premiership, andit's initiated, and I'm
interested in your thoughts onrugby generally.
But with the Women's RugbyWorld Cup taking place this
autumn, how hopeful and excitedare you about the opportunities
across women's rugby right?
Lucy Wray (27:10):
now I think women's rugby, especially in England, is
riding the crest of a wave.
Especially, I mean, the RFUhave been exceptionally good at
being the first mover advantageand investing in the women's
team and the Red Roses andlikewise having the first
professional club league.
So you've kind of got thatadvantage over the rest of the
(27:32):
world to.
You know, hopefully, the redroses, you know their favorites
and there's it's very easy tosay your favorites and then
actually go on to win it.
But there could be thisincredible moment next September
if they go on and do that andyou have got some big stars of
the game more so really in thewomen's game that are really
coming through as bigpersonalities, like Ellie Kildan
(27:55):
and obviously Alona Meyer, andI think that's only brilliant
for the women's rugby.
And also I read actually in theTimes today that there's now a
black market for women's rugbyWorld Cup tickets where they're
trying to sell tickets at like10 times the value, and so the
world rugby are trying to selltickets at like 10 times the
value, and so the the worldrugby are trying to crack down
on it.
But that's actually brilliantbecause it's obviously not great
(28:17):
, but brilliant in a certain wayin that you only get that kind
of black market, somethingthat's actually valuable and in
demand and people want to go to.
So from that perspective it'sbrilliant.
I guess my only is rugby, clubrugby, international rugby.
I think there's just a lack ofinvestment in the game, and the
(28:40):
problem for women's rugby isthat the club level is the same,
owners it's the same clubs,it's the same people and whilst
there's pressure, there's bigpressure on the economic model
and the financial sustainabilityof it all.
It's therefore whether you havethe rightness is that there
aren't the right building blocksin place to really capitalize
(29:16):
on what could explode.
You know you've got to.
You've got to get women's rugbyin schools, playing in schools.
You know, all schools, stateprimary, it's a big, big
grassroots participation.
You have to utilize this momentand that that will be
absolutely key to get right.
Hopefully we will get it rightit's interesting, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss (29:40):
on that ownership piece.
I was listening today to maggiemurphy on unexpected goals
podcast.
I give them a plug, anotherpodcast plug on this podcast,
but talking about that, thatevery WSL club now is owned by a
premier league club and sothere isn't that independence,
that opportunity to do thingsand shape things that are solely
focused.
And obviously you've got theLionesses, london Lionesses, in
(30:02):
the championship.
That do have that, a couple ofother clubs too.
But how, in terms of the PWRand women's professional rugby,
how much do you think thoseclubs should be emulating what
we've seen in premiership rugbyon the men's side, or is there
an opportunity to do things verydifferently and create more
potential across the women'sgame?
Lucy Wray (30:20):
I think they've got to do things differently.
They can't follow the men'smodel because the men's model
doesn't work.
It's not an economic model thatis financially sustainable, and
I think that's one of thethings the men's game is
struggling with at the momentand wrestling with is how you
know, and also the the broadcastmarket's completely changing.
(30:41):
You're not gonna get big checksfrom broadcasters, you know.
Necessarily in the futureyou've got to tell a completely
different narrative.
I think you know women'srugby's rugby, has to really
think outside the box and thinkvery carefully about where they
go next and how they capitaliseon next year at club level, and
(31:02):
I strongly believe it needs tobe look and feel very, very
different to where the men'sgame's gone.
Sue Anstiss (31:09):
We could do a whole podcast on that.
We can come back and talk toyou again on that one.
We could yeah, we could.
So, along with rugby, you'realso doing a huge amount in
netball.
You're co-owner of the LondonMavericks and you also sit on
the board of the Netball SuperLeague and I'm, as mentioned
earlier, incredibly proud to beon your board at London
Mavericks.
But just going back, what wasit that inspired you and Olivia
(31:30):
Hall to invest in LondonMavericks?
Lucy Wray (31:32):
Firstly, I was incredibly lucky to meet Olivia,
or to be introduced to Olivia,and she was at the time
incredibly passionate about theperception of women and girls
and raising the standard andtreatment of women and girls
more generally, and she believespassionately that women's sport
can be a massive lever for that.
And so we were introducedbecause I kind of knew a bit
(31:55):
about women's sport and we justgot on.
So that was just a veryfortunate meeting for us both.
But in terms of Mavericks, Ithink we both looked at it.
We weren't we obviously wepassionate about sport.
We weren't actually passionatenetballers or netball fans or so
, which I think was actuallyquite good because we looked at
(32:18):
it through a very almostdispassionate like kind of angle
.
In terms of actually the rawmaterials of netball and the and
the foundations of netball as asport to turn professional are
really quite compelling becauseyou've got this massive
participation base.
You know it's.
It's bigger than men's andwomen's rugby put together.
(32:38):
I think it's still three orfour times bigger than girls
football.
It's huge.
It's played in every school.
Everyone you speak to has someconnection to netball.
Either they've played it or thedaughter plays it, or, and so
you know you've got this hugeuntapped potential which a lot
of sports don't have.
So that was a big kind of tick.
(32:59):
In terms of taking itprofessional, it's actually a
relatively low cost base becauseyou just have 10 players in
your netball super league squad.
So it's not like rugby orcricket or football where you
need much, much bigger squads,sometimes being able to pay
players, put a really goodperformance environment around
them.
It's a kind of lower cost entrypoint to other team sport.
(33:23):
It's quite unique in that it's afemale-led sport, so it's much
bigger than the men's game,although we'd love to see men's
netball get bigger because wekind of believe that's really
important for the sport as awhole.
So for all those things we feltactually women's sports going
on this massive growthtrajectory.
So you know it's growingexponentially.
(33:44):
Over the next 10 years it'sgoing to be the biggest growth
area for sport in general.
So women's sport great Netballyes, huge participation,
untapped, low-cost space, sportin general.
So women's sport great Netballyes, huge participation,
untapped, low cost space.
And London I think London wasimportant for us as well.
So for all of those reasons,and then you kind of actually,
so you're kind of using yourhead to make those investment
(34:05):
decisions and then very, veryquickly, your heart's completely
evolved as well.
Sue Anstiss (34:10):
And what surprised you most in terms of owning and
running a netball club incomparison to owning a rugby
club, and I know the obviouslythe difference in the history
and the size of.
But what have been some of thekey differences there you've
seen in this first year?
Lucy Wray (34:24):
I think you know the netball is very much like a like
any small startup business.
You know you've got verylimited resource, you've got
people who are having to wearseven different hats and be, you
know, spin about 10 differentplates and it's really fast
moving and I love all that.
So I love that environment.
(34:44):
In that respect it's notdifferent to any kind of startup
.
You know, small business whereyou're building a brand and
you're building an audience andyou're trying to're building a
brand and you're building anaudience and you're trying to
maximize your revenue growth andyou're putting in all the like,
foundations and pillars to dothat, whilst also you know
setting up your performanceenvironment.
But actually the performanceenvironment is big, not the easy
(35:04):
bit, but the bit that actually,if you've got the right people,
happens quite quickly and, as Isaid, if you put people and
player welfare at the center ofthat, can be really powerful.
So it's more the business sidewhich takes a bit of time.
But in terms of netball andrugby they're not hugely
dissimilar in terms of you knowthere's always more calls on
your capital than capitalavailable.
(35:26):
So it's always this difficultyof kind of weighing up your
decisions of where you spendmoney and where it's going to
kind of be best placed for kindof long-term future growth.
I think Olivia and I are verymuch focused on long-term.
We're not kind of trying tobuild something in 10 months
that wins one thing and thendisappears.
(35:47):
You know, we want to buildsomething that's successful on
and off the court for the verylong term, has a kind of long
lasting positive impact likefans, community players right at
the center of it, center of allour decision making.
We're trying to be asdisruptive as possible because
we'd love to kind of be able toprove a different model or a
(36:08):
different economic model of howyou can do women's sport, how
you can do it independently withlike dedicated resource, like
patient capital, stableownership over the long term and
what are you hoping?
Sue Anstiss (36:19):
you talk about that success and you know the
long-term building, but whatyou're hoping success might be
for this year, on and off thecourt, well, I I kind of don't
like to talk about outcomes, Ilike to talk about processes.
Lucy Wray (36:33):
So I kind of think if you get your processes right,
the outcomes will look afteritself.
So I look at ourselves and say,actually we've really looked
after the players as well as wecan.
(36:54):
We've looked after our staff aswell as we can.
We've tried to do the best bythe whole netball community, by
our fans, like we've got to havefun, like it's got to be a fun
journey.
It's obviously got to befocused and we're trying to.
Now, obviously, if we kind ofsee no progress, then we're
obviously we're doing somethingwrong and we are ultimately
(37:17):
we're very competitive.
You know, someone like TamsinGreenway and Cam and Nikki
Austin, your coaching team,they're definitely all going to
be wanting to win.
But you know, I think for usthat's not the be all and end
all.
It would be incredible if wegot any success and we got to
playoffs.
When you win a trophy, it'slike you're euphoric for 48
(37:41):
hours and then you feel the sameas you did the week before.
So it doesn't have that kind oflong lasting impact on people's
lives.
I think what does is creatingthe right culture, the right
environment and trying to, youknow, trying to prove, be
competitive on and off the court.
How can we be the best at foran experience?
How can we give the best matchday experience?
(38:02):
How can we get the mostsponsorship?
How can we drive our audiencegrows?
Sue Anstiss (38:06):
how can we deliver brilliant content like that's
how we're like, pushingourselves to constantly do
better and we talk a lot, don'twe, about social purpose and
obviously winning and winningtrophies does help with that
also, because you've got abigger voice and awareness of
what you're doing.
But how tough is it to balancethose commercial aspects that
you've mentioned?
They're running a sports teamand then also maintaining the
(38:29):
values and ensuring that you arehaving that wider social impact
yeah, I, I personally don'tthink they're two silos.
Lucy Wray (38:37):
I think you, you know they can sit hand in hand.
You mentioned I sat on theboard of benchmark sport.
One of their businesses isthink beyond, and they have a
great line which is basicallypurpose-driven growth, and I
think that's that's you canreally deliver, that you can
really deliver a lot of impactand purpose, but whilst also
(38:58):
growing your brand.
And I think they can sittogether and I think you know
brands really resonate with thatand your, your kind of fans and
your community 100% resonatethat.
I think their relationship witha club goes far beyond the
final whistle on the court.
You want them to feel proud ofsomething that your club stands
(39:19):
for, something more.
So I believe that they sit handin hand.
Yes, you can't be losing moreand more money year on year and
investing then more and more inyour impact because it just so,
like you said, the morecommercially successful you can
be, the more you can thendeliver on the impact side as
well.
So I really believe they sitvery much hand in hand and work
(39:43):
together.
Sue Anstiss (39:44):
And it's obviously great news that this year all
the games within the netballsuper league will be broadcast
on Sky or the BBC, which isfantastic.
And we've mentioned the successof pwr, with elona mayer across
and the increase in terms of uhattendances at some of those
games, but sadly neither thenetball super league or the pwr
have title sponsors right now.
(40:05):
I was going to say to you whydo you think?
That is what you know.
I really I'm really interestedin your thoughts of despite that
success and the growth ofwomen's sport and all we're
talking about andprofessionalism, but you know we
haven't seen sponsors flockingto those leagues I think you
know success isn't builtovernight and and so neither of
(40:25):
these leagues you know they'restill in their infancy.
Lucy Wray (40:28):
You know that, yes, they're putting in it's a steep
growth rate and they're puttingin all the time and all of that
but and the right foundations,but it's just going to take time
.
You've got to again likesponsors aren't just going to do
it because, oh, it's nice andit's women's sport.
You know they need ajustification, so you've got to
give them that justification.
That takes time to build andit's definitely there.
(40:51):
But I do think the those rightsneed to be sold completely
differently, with a differentnarrative and very differently
to men's sport.
I think there are very differentlevers to pull when you're
selling that sponsorship.
But I think it will come.
It's just you're fighting inthat kind of squeezed middle
market where everyone's goingafter that you know, half a
(41:13):
million plus to a million ofsponsorship where you're
fighting with all the men'smen's rugby clubs, men's leagues
, men's football clubs at acertain level are all in that
market together.
You're all fighting for thatspend.
So I think it's it's a tougharea to be, but I think it will
come.
I think it just it needs theright level investment and it
needs really patient capital,but it will come.
Sue Anstiss (41:35):
Fabulous to hear, and I know that you're looking
at investing in more women'ssports properties right now.
I know you've been exploringsports beyond netball and rugby,
so where do you find thatbalance between finding those
properties that will beprofitable commercially and that
can have that significantsocial impact as well, too?
Are there specific sports orteams or leagues?
(41:56):
What are the drivers for youthere?
Lucy Wray (41:58):
um, I think a bit like we looked at the, the
netball opportunity it's youknow you do a bit of a market
analysis and your due diligenceand then you kind of get a gut
feel of the people you'reinvesting in and you know
essentially you're investing inand you know essentially you're
investing in people, the peoplewho are running it, the people
who are at the top, and I thinkwe're at the moment just
(42:20):
spending a lot of time justunderstanding, talking to as
many people as we can,understanding what the
opportunities are.
Olivia and I have slightlydifferent kind of, I guess,
investment criteria, which isgood.
It's a good balance, like we'reboth looking at it from a
slightly different lens, and shesometimes makes her own
investments and likewise we doour own investments.
(42:40):
So, yeah, I think it's justwe're kind of in that learning
phase at the moment, seeingwhere the opportunities are, and
I think you've got to have abit of a passion for whatever
you invest in.
So I think there are somethings we've kind of not looked
at, just because we're morepassionate about team sport, for
example, than individual sport.
So there's certain criteria wewould look at.
Sue Anstiss (43:04):
And just finally, obviously there is more money
coming into women's sports.
We've said lots of investors inthis space, but if we were to
encourage other brands andinvestors to come and look at
women's sport right now, whatwould you say?
What would your recommendationbe as to to why that is a good
commercial option?
Lucy Wray (43:21):
well, I think I'll need to fact check or you might
need to fact check myself on meon this, but you know, I think
they're saying that the women'ssports industry is going to go
from 3 billion to 23 billion inthe next 10 years.
So, like massive, massivegrowth.
It's going to outstrip growthof any other sport and, yes,
you're starting from a very lowlevel, but that's a huge
(43:44):
opportunity.
I think if I was investor, Iwould say you've got to be
patient.
You've got to look at this overthe long term.
You're not going to do anythingin 12 months, 24 months.
You've got to look at it.
Okay, what can we achieve overthe next 10 years, 15 years?
So I think you need to look atit with that lens on.
You need to be patient, butit's a huge growth potential and
(44:06):
I think obviously there's somewomen's sports will do better
than others.
So you've got to look at itlike you would weigh up any
business opportunity.
But I think, beyond the actualinvestment itself, sport is an
amazing thing to invest inbecause you learn so much.
You meet incredible people likethese peak performance people
who don't really understand whatmediocre means, and you kind of
(44:29):
go on this like passionateroller coaster journey of
winning, losing and like magicmoments with people, even in the
like depths of despair, whenyou like lost everything, you
still learn something throughthat and you get these
incredible bonds.
I just don't think that happensin in many things other than
sport.
In many things other than sport.
Sue Anstiss (44:55):
It was great to catch up with Lucy and I'm so
impressed with all she's doingin sport and excited to see the
impact of the London Maverickson and off the court.
If you'd like to hear from moretrailblazers, there are over
200 episodes of the GameChangers that are all free to
listen to on podcast platformsor on our website at
fearlesswomencouk.
(45:15):
My other guests have includedelite athletes, coaches,
entrepreneurs, broadcasters,scientists, journalists and CEOs
all women who are changing thegame in sport.
If netball is your thing, thenother guests have included
Pamela Cookie, jo Coates, leilaGusketh, sue Campbell, liz Nicol
and Serena Guthrie.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
(45:38):
can also find out more about theWomen's Sport Collective, a
free, inclusive community forall women working in sport.
We now have over 10,000 membersacross the world, so please do
come and join us or tell otherwomen working in sport about us.
The whole of my book game on theunstoppable rise of women's
sport is also free to listen toon the podcast.
(45:58):
Every episode of series 13 isme reading a chapter of the book
.
A huge thank you again to sportengland for backing the game
changers and the women's sportcollective with a national
lottery award, and to sam Walkerat what Goes On Media, who does
such an excellent job as ourexecutive producer.
Thank you also to my lovelycolleague at Fearless Women,
(46:20):
kate Hannan.
You can find the Game Changerson all podcast platforms, so do
follow us now and you won't missout on future episodes.
Come and say hello on socialmedia, where you'll find me.
At sue anstis, the game changes.
Fearless women in sport.
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