April 21, 2025 • 43 mins
"Great athletes aren’t just terrified of losing – they’re traumatised by it. That’s what drives them."
In this powerful and inspiring episode, Sue Anstiss is joined by one of the most influential figures in British sport, Mel Marshall.
A former Olympian turned world-renowned coach, Mel is best known for guiding Adam Peaty to Olympic gold and multiple world records – but her story is so much more than medals and podiums.
From her early days as a fiercely competitive swimmer to her current role leading an elite performance hub in Australia, Mel shares the highs, the heartbreaks and the lessons learned along the way. She speaks openly about the pressure of elite sport, the emotional cost of coaching and the values that have shaped her remarkable career.
Mel reflects on the extraordinary partnership with Adam Peaty, the importance of empathy in high performance and why we must do more to support and spotlight female coaches.
She also reveals what’s next in her journey – and why she believes her best days are still to come.
This is a powerful conversation about resilience, reinvention and the people who quietly shape greatness from the sidelines.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sue Anstiss (00:03):
Hello and welcome to The Game Changers.
I'm Sue Anstiss, and this isthe podcast where you'll hear
from trailblazing women in sportwho are knocking down barriers
and challenging the status quofor women and girls everywhere.
What can we learn from theirjourneys?
As we explore key issues aroundequality in sport and beyond,
we start, as always, with a bigthank you to our partners, Sport
(00:24):
England, who support the GameChangers podcast through a
national lottery award.
Today, I'm talking to someonewho has made a huge impact on
British sport, both in and outof the pool Mel Marshall.
Mel's a former Olympic swimmerwho's gone on to become one of
Britain's most respected coaches.
(00:45):
She's best known for coachingAdam Peaty to Olympic gold and
multiple world records, but herinfluence extends far beyond
just one athlete.
Through her work as lead coachat Aquatics GB, mel helped shape
the next generation of Britishswimmers, focusing on both their
performance and personaldevelopment.
As one of the most respectedfigures in high performance
(01:10):
sport, mel's coaching philosophyblends innovation, resilience
and an unwavering commitment toexcellence.
Her journey from competing atthe highest level to shaping the
next generation of champions issimply inspiring.
Mel was named British SwimCoach of the Year three times in
a row.
International Swim Coach of theYear in 2014 and in 2021, was
awarded an MBE in the Queen'sBirthday Honours.
(01:30):
So, Mel, can I start with whereyou are now?
Because last year, after theParis Olympics, you left your
role at Aquatics GB as leadcoach there to head to Australia
.
So what led to that decision?
Mel Marshall (01:45):
after three decades in British sport, I
think, what led to that decision.
There's a series of events anda series of things, but I think
it was that thing that you saidthere three decades in one place
.
I think there comes a time ineverybody's life that you have
to jump into new deep water andchallenge yourself and push
yourself.
And you know, an opportunitycame up here after Tokyo which I
(02:13):
didn't take and the opportunitykept presenting itself and
ultimately I thought it was theright time.
I thought it was the rightopportunity and I was 43 and I
wanted to just have a bit ofsunshine and a little bit of a
different kind of approach for acouple of years.
So that's the main reasonsreally.
Sue Anstiss (02:31):
And you're on the Gold Coast, so hopefully you
will get that sunshine.
But what is the new role thereand how does life compare to
being in Loughborough?
Mel Marshall (02:40):
Well, it's actually very similar to.
It's a posh skeg nest, that'show I would say.
So I feel like I'm a little bithome, but in terms of the role,
it's actually a very similarrole.
So I was the lead highperformance coach for GB
Aquatics in LoughboroughPerformance Centre and the role
here is very similar.
So I'm head of one of theAustralian hubs.
(03:01):
It's underpinned by GriffithUniversity one of the Australian
hubs.
It's underpinned by GriffithUniversity and ultimately it's
working with a high performanceteam, sports scientists and,
ultimately, great athletes.
And so you know, there's a lotof similarities to the role that
I did.
There's some things I'm reallycomfortable with and then
there's new things that I'mlearning and so, yeah, it kind
of sits in the same sort ofrealm as that, but different
(03:23):
group of humans and differentgroup of athletes.
Really.
Sue Anstiss (03:27):
And, as you say, you've not been there that long.
But have you seen anysignificant differences in this
sort of set up and approach toelite swimming in Australia
versus the GB?
Mel Marshall (03:37):
Yeah, there are some significant differences.
Actually, you know, if bothorganizations had a chat,
there'd be massive learningacross both.
There's cultural differenceshere.
What's quite evident here isthat, in terms of from a young
person perspective, you know,they're much more outdoorsy
While they are connected totheir phones.
They're not living throughtheir phones.
I think they're a bit tougherin terms of just athletes.
(04:00):
I just think that's justbecause they're outdoor
lifestyle and they're just quiterobust in that sense.
And I guess the system's quitesimilar in terms of you know
what was?
Uksi supports high performancesport, qas supports performance
sport.
So there's some similarities inthat.
The one thing I will say thatis very, very different here is
(04:20):
that the coach is much moreempowered yeah, massively so in
terms of decisions, makingdecisions, and there's a lot
more of a fluid transactionacross athletes and people move
from programs to programsbecause there's a bit more
talent, just there's a bit moredepth.
It doesn't mean to say, interms of where I've come from,
there wasn't quality, there wasabsolute quality, but just
(04:41):
there's a bit more of anabundance of it here.
Sue Anstiss (04:43):
And are you enjoying, then, that additional
opportunity to craft your ownkind of team and the work that
you're doing there?
Is that slightly different?
Mel Marshall (04:52):
Yeah, it is, and before you would be in a system
but you wouldn't be makingdecisions on staff or who's or
where's or how's and all thatkind of stuff.
And so, whereas here, very much, I was very much involved in
the process of, you know,picking my team and making sure
that you know the boardroom thatI have in front of me in terms
of my people is is my people.
So that's been, that was areally important part of the
(05:14):
move for me and ultimately, yeah, that was, that was a, that was
a big part of the move.
Sue Anstiss (05:21):
Excellent, and you're obviously an incredible
athlete yourself.
So, taking yourself back, whatdid draw you to swimming in the
first place?
And, I guess, what kept youhooked in a sport that can be so
brutal in terms of the traininghours in the pool and so on?
Mel Marshall (05:35):
Yeah, I mean it's quite a private story as to why
I came into swimming, but Ithink one of the things that
just I loved all sports and Ihad a very competitive dad who
basically we just competed ateverything.
So that was born in me and Ihad a very inspirational mum
that basically told me andtaught me, the big lesson in
(05:57):
life is if you're going to dosomething, you do it to the very
best of your ability.
And if you've got talent, youshould see that talent through.
So they were the kind of thingsthat were in my dna and they
continue to be in my dna andthat's kind of how I found
myself into sport really, andI've got to say like, um, you
know, I'm, I'm clever enoughacademically and in terms of you
see things now in terms ofsport and its role in society,
(06:20):
and it seems to me like it'splaying less and less of a role
in the community and less andless of a role in school.
And it seems to me like it'splaying less and less of a role
in the community and less andless of a role in school and
education.
And I just look and I'm justlike I would not be anything
that I've been, if I didn't havethat vehicle of sport, because
I was academic but I didn'tthrive academically and I just
had that outlet, physically andemotionally, where I could
(06:42):
express myself.
And I just think that, from apoint of view of what sport is
to people and in a world that isbecoming more and more
unhealthy, we need to get somuch sport into primary schools.
We need to get kids lovingbeing active and I think that
50% of the curriculum should bephysical, because at that age
(07:03):
they should build a relationshipwith physical activity so that
it's ingrained and imprinted, sothat they live through it.
You know you get, you know doit too late and it's too late.
But so, yeah, that's just alittle bit of a.
Sue Anstiss (07:16):
Is it very different what you're seeing in
australia?
Is that different in terms ofattitudes?
Mel Marshall (07:20):
yeah, yeah, totally like kids are outdoors.
I saw a brilliant thing theother day right five lads on a
bike, fishing rods in theirbackpacks, and they were just
biking just going to go fishing.
And kids are out on the beach,they're surfing, they're
swimming, they're bikingeverywhere.
And so here, definitely they,just they just live physical
activity, much, much, just just,it's evident, it's everywhere
(07:44):
um, I mentioned earlier, didndidn't I, how I guess tough that
swim training is and can be.
Sue Anstiss (07:48):
I was a swimmer myself not to any level that
you're coaching or doing, but Idid swim in the pool in those
early mornings and similarlyI've sat poolside with my own
kids as well as a parent.
You're brave, I don't knowwhich is harder, but how did you
kind of maintain that approachas a younger swimmer, so that
staying focused and motivated?
We do hear about athletes,don't we, sometimes losing their
(08:08):
focus as teenagers.
Kate Richardson-Morsh actuallywas a guest on one of the first
series of the game changers andtalked about, as a teenager,
kind of losing her way and andneeding a wake-up call almost to
get her back into the sportagain.
Was there ever a moment for you, around teenage years perhaps,
where you weren't as motivated?
Mel Marshall (08:25):
yeah, completely.
I mean, if you look at anyathlete or any athlete's story,
it's always like that, it'snever a straight line.
Um, and effectively when I wasabout 17 or 18, you know I'd
been really committed to mysport for a long time.
I'd kind of qualified for theworld championships as a 15 year
old and then it all went to myhead a little bit, to be honest,
and I got a little bitunfocused and kind of sort of
(08:48):
tried to wing it and then I, youknow, narrowly missed the
Olympics in Sydney.
They took five, for really Ithink I came sixth by something
like eight, one hundredths.
You know, what I'd been doingduring that time was I'd been
playing a lot of soccer football, been playing a lot of football
.
I discovered going out and thefootball team that I was playing
with at the time they were kindof like I wouldn't say it was
girls' pub football, but it waskind of like it was just social
(09:11):
and I'd just discovered a newlife and I was still swimming,
but I wasn't really swimming.
And then I went to Loughboroughactually with one of the girls
that I'd played football withand she was studying there and
we'd her up all that kind ofstuff in terms of you know, she
was still playing for the team.
We picked her up on the way.
Anyway, I kind of just went fora visit from the swim program
(09:31):
and I was just like if I want todo it, I have to move to here.
So, effectively, I packed up mybags and moved that term.
But there was like a periodfrom kind of 17 to 18 and just
learned to drive and you know,life felt a lot easier and a lot
more fun than 7,000 metres inthe pool.
But it was a wake-up call ofmissing Sydney Olympics and it
(09:52):
was like you know, my mum'svoice in the back of my head in
terms of if you're going to dosomething, you should do it
properly.
So yeah, I just went to abetter environment and it was
much more suited to me to kindof to move my career on.
Sue Anstiss (10:05):
So were you in the swim program?
Were you studying atLoughborough and in the swim
program?
That was a kind of move.
Mel Marshall (10:15):
So that was that I was actually.
I was actually doing a BTEC atmy school and I had one more
year to do, but I transferredacross to the Loughborough
College and they were awesome.
They were so accommodating formy needs and then I just
continued down that route interms of education at
Loughborough and they wereflexible learning and, you know,
I got my degree at the end ofit took me eight years but it
was complementary of my swimmingand ultimately that that
(10:35):
program allowed me to, you know,compete in high performance
sport and get an educationalongside it, which was really,
really important and for my nextstage in my career and my life.
Sue Anstiss (10:45):
And you said that sort of disappointment around
Sydney heading into the AthensOlympics.
You kind of got your head down,amazing, went in.
You were ranked number one inthe world, I think, as you were
going in.
But you've described theexperience as going in the
fastest and coming out with abroken heart.
I'm not sure how often that'squoted back to you, but what,
yeah, sorry, I'm saying thatslightly ironically.
I'm not sure how often that'squoted back to you.
But what, yeah, sorry, I'msaying that slightly ironically.
(11:06):
I'm sure it is sorry, but whathappened there?
What was that experience?
Mel Marshall (11:10):
I'm over it, by the way, so we can talk.
Sue Anstiss (11:12):
Sorry, just dig it in again yeah, no, no, it's all
good.
Mel Marshall (11:16):
I mean, there's a whole series of things that led
to that result and a lot ofthose things I'm really thankful
for because they've really theygive it.
You know, they opened up myskill set as a coach, really in
terms of certainly a peoplecoach, and the thing is a series
of things.
You know, I was a first timeOlympian.
There was a large amount ofpressure.
I actually did my dissertationon the relationship between
(11:39):
organizational stress andburnout and I actually felt I
don't want to be one of thosekind of whingy people at the
post, because I thinkeverybody's always just trying
their best, but there wascertainly some pressures and
stresses that were laid downupon athletes at that time
because pretty much the resultswere across the board, people
were really high ranked, but itdidn't come off.
So I think there was someconditions that could have been
(12:02):
more facilitative of that.
I was a first-time Olympian.
I was someone that probablyfought hard to get where I got
to.
But did I believe in myselfdeep down?
Maybe not, and I think when youget to that stage you really
need to believe in yourself andsome things were just timing and
fate.
I talked to my old coach now andit was interesting because we
(12:23):
were both at a conferencetogether.
We're really close now Notclose, but we've got a really
good relationship now and hebasically the title of his talk
was excuse, I'm not going toswear, but my biggest 10 fuck
ups in coaching and I was numberone.
But what was great about thatmoment because I don't think
he'd apologized at the time, butthat was almost his way of
(12:45):
saying it wasn't just you, itwas, it was, it was all of it
and it was no one's fault.
And I'm, you know, we're, we'rekind of like we've moved on now
massively, but I'm sorry and so, yeah, it was quite a poignant
moment in life, but yeah.
Sue Anstiss (12:59):
So there out came 16th and and how has that
affected and impacted and shapedthe way that you coach today in
terms of that pressure down you?
Mel Marshall (13:15):
you talked, that you experienced then well,
there's a couple of things forme around that time.
Just that, the experienceduring the and the before and
the experience after, which wasprobably the most harrowing part
of it all.
But from that moment I vowed,if I was going to be a coach on
athletes' darkest days, I wouldnever leave them.
I would find a way I'd bringsome lights to the, because I
(13:38):
actually wrote a journal throughthat time which is not like me
and I put in the journal entryand I put it.
I felt like I was in a darkroom.
I didn't know how to turn thelights on and no one was going
to turn the lights on for me.
It's like when you read it back.
When I read it back, becausewhen I did my dissertation I
used a lot of journal entriesand I was just like that sort of
(13:58):
moment made me, I guess, aguardian of what I wanted to be
as a coach for athletes.
Next, and so effectively, I'lltalk about the Adam situation.
You know, what am I proud of issilver?
Of course I am, and they weremy hardest years of coaching
with him.
But my vow to I'm never goingto leave an athlete on their
(14:18):
darkest day.
You know, we had that kind oflike bit of a mental breakdown
in that space.
I stuck true to my word on that, no matter how difficult it was
to me.
So that to me was a realsuccess and I was really proud
of my values and really proud ofmy integrity to stand withstand
what I did.
Withstand because I think somepeople still walked out, but I
(14:39):
didn't.
Sue Anstiss (14:41):
You retired from swimming after the Beijing
Olympics in 2008 and I know manyathletes struggle to find that
next transition into a careerafter retirement, but you seem
to go straight into coaching.
You took that love of sport.
Why do you think that was foryou?
Had you always known you wantedto coach as a younger athlete?
Mel Marshall (15:00):
Well, interestingly, yes and no.
So I always wanted to be a PEteacher.
So I'd kind of pursuedeverything to be a PE teacher.
You know I'd done my CSLA andHSLA and you know, done all the
courses to be a teacher.
At the end of my career, really,and then towards like when I
was an athlete, you used to getsent to these places where you
(15:20):
were the superstar athlete and Iremember getting sent to
Pembrokeshire and there was itwas a four-lane pool and 90.
And this would be a regularthing where you just get sent
somewhere and you'd have toentertain 90 children for two
and a half hours.
And I started to think I'mgoing to need something in my
back pocket here so that I cancoach them, give them an
(15:43):
experience, all that kind ofstuff.
And that's sort of where theblend of me being a PE teacher,
wanting to be a PE teacher andthen the coaching came in and
I'd kind of kind of masteredthis thing where you can just
turn up, coach 90 people andthen disappear.
And anyway, straight after theOlympics I was on holiday in the
Maldives thanks UK sport and umand effectively I was just
(16:06):
applying for coaching jobsbecause I had I had like my
dissertation left to write andone module left for university.
So I needed a job to kind ofsupport and I applied for two
coaching jobs, one that wouldn'tgive me an interview and then
one that was the small club ofCity of Derby, and ultimately
they learned.
I'll be forever thankful becausethey they sort of took a chance
on me and I took a chance onthem and from the moment I
(16:28):
started I was in love with it.
I was addicted to it from thestart.
So I was really lucky in thatsense and I actually used to get
more of a buzz from coachingthan I ever did from swimming.
And the beauty of that programwas because it was we started
here.
We won quite a lot of stuff andso you got this real kind of
buzz, like when we won the DiddyLeague, the under 12s, and then
when we got the arena leaguefinal, it was all like and the
(16:50):
club club had never been therefor a long time.
So it was just an amazing clubto be part of and we took it
from 12 regional qualifiers toadam winning the olympics, lewis
white winning a paralympicbronze medal and a whole host of
international.
So it was.
It was quite a rags to richesstory and it was um a great
eight years that I had there doyou think we do enough to
(17:12):
encourage athletes to thinkabout coaching post their sport?
Sue Anstiss (17:15):
because is it?
It's interesting you said whenyou said about that getting the
qualifications.
I know when I spoke to JennyMeadows she talked about as an
athlete rocking up to events andfeeling she needed to get her
level one, level two, levelthree so she could talk
confidently when she was atevents and so on, and then that
kind of led her into coaching.
But why do you think we don'tdo more of that as a entity,
(17:35):
almost to encourage all athletesto be thinking about coaching?
Mel Marshall (17:42):
Yeah, I think it is a real massive vehicle.
And I remember, and I'm goingto tell you a story.
So I'd just spent 20 years insport, I'd just spent at the
front line as an athlete, and Iwent to a coach's conference and
this particular person that satabove me I was trying to get
some kind of funding andunderstanding about how to
access a level three.
No, so I was trying to get someaccess, to access some
(18:03):
volunteers to come into theprogram.
And this particular person, whoI knew pretty well, said to me
he goes are you a level three?
And I went oh, not, yet I'mjust going through the process.
He goes well, I'm not going totalk to you until you've got a
level three.
And you know what was reallygood about that was I thought
right, I'm going to have mylevel three and in four years
time you're going to ask me tospeak at this conference.
And they did.
(18:33):
And it's so disappointing thatyou know that kind of behavior
is around from people that sitabove.
And I always used to say and Iactually sat in, it was actually
paul manning from cycling andwe were in one of those cohorts,
it was the elite coach cohortwith um uk sport and he was on
the course at the start and um,there was an argument with
someone was a little bit olderand it was a bit conflicted.
It was great space and he said avery poignant point because the
other person had said, oh,you're only 41.
(18:54):
He goes, but I've been on mybike for 25 years, so in my head
I'm older and that's the thingthat athletes have is.
Not every athlete will havethat, but if you can translate
that experience and get them tobe able to translate it back in
their head, the wisdom that's inthere, if you can unlock it, in
my humble opinion is somethingthat should be tapped into
(19:14):
because they've just spent 20years living it.
I actually feel felt morequalified to do what I do when
it came out of sport than I donow and I'm I've been out of it
a little bit because you've beenon the front line and you know
what it's about and what it'slike.
But the key to a good coach isbeing able to translate your
experience into usefulinformation for other people,
because you can't just sit thereand go well in my day, because
(19:35):
that me reliving my career in2008 is not going to help the
current world record holder thatI'm working with.
Sue Anstiss (19:41):
And how would your athletes today describe you as a
coach?
Do you think?
Mel Marshall (19:47):
I'd be an interesting one.
I think they would say that Iwas entertaining.
I think they would say that Iwas probably firm but fair, and
I think they would say that Iwas creative.
I'd like to hope that theywould say those things anyway.
Sue Anstiss (20:02):
And your relationship, your coaching
relationship with Adam Peaty hasbeen extraordinarily successful
, as I mentioned in the intro.
People obviously know thatanyway, but what do you think
has been the the key to thatrelationship?
Mel Marshall (20:15):
Well, a couple of things.
I think we've been able toreinvent ourselves.
It's always been trying to pushthe boundaries or make it fresh
or change it up or move itaround, or you know.
I think we've been able toreinvent ourselves year upon
year, and I think that's beenone of the key things.
I think another thing is thatwe're quite similar in our
desires for high performance,and so, you know, we're very
(20:37):
competitive, we want to achievegreat things, and we're kind of
both working class human beingsthat, I guess, want to work our
way to the top, and the otherone is just around.
How do you say it?
We think the same.
I think that was the one thingthat was.
(20:57):
That was really, that wasobvious, was like, we're wired
very similar, which is whysometimes we would clash and but
why sometimes, when it ran insynergy, it ran in synergy and I
think there was just.
I think, in terms of we neededeach other, you know, in terms
of there were so many times whenwe needed what it was that we
were to move through to the nextround and you've obviously
(21:20):
worked with many world-classathletes.
Sue Anstiss (21:22):
So what qualities do you think you need to see in
them as a coach, as you'remeeting for the first time, that
enables you to know they couldsucceed at the highest level.
Are there, are there attributesthat you see?
Mel Marshall (21:33):
yeah, competitive.
So you know there's people thatcan.
I, I would stand in front ofnine athletes and they would all
have a different why?
And I think that that's valiant, and I think that it's about
people going to their bestversion of themselves.
But those super greats are justtraumatized by losing.
(21:56):
But I don't think it's aboutthe winning, I actually think
it's they're terrorized by thethought of losing, and the more
they win, the more terrorizedthey get.
So therefore, the more theypush, they get addicted to it,
and I think that's probably thedifference between those ones
that are the goods, the greatsand the all-time greats.
It's just this insanecompetitiveness.
Sue Anstiss (22:16):
I'm smiling, but it doesn't really sound very
healthy, does it really?
Mel Marshall (22:19):
you know it's not, it's not and that's the thing
is in terms of it.
It does, it terrorizes them andit's a real, I feel in terms of
that space you do have to likeI remember some sessions with
Adam and if it wasn't moving, oh, he'd be traumatized, it'd be
like a full on grief, it'd bedevastating for him.
(22:40):
And you know, if you've gotlogic, it's kind of like, well,
actually it's only moved, it'sonly not moved a little bit, and
you've had plenty of other ones, but that's the thing that
keeps him awake at night alittle bit, and you've had
plenty of other ones, but that'sthe thing that keeps them awake
at night.
And it is.
It isn't healthy.
And it's about getting thatbalance of how they can, you
know, activate that superstrength that they've got, but
not send themselves kind of likedestabilize themselves with it.
(23:04):
And I always used to summarizeit with adam with I want you to
be fiercely competitive like thevery, very most you know most
competitive person in the world,but you don want you to be
fiercely competitive like thevery, very most you know most
competitive person in the world,but you don't need to be that
when you're in the supermarketand there's one loaf of bread
and the 85 year old grandma isalso going for it.
So just trying to help themcontextualize where you place
(23:24):
that super strength and what's apositive experience with it and
what can be a negativeexperience with it.
Sue Anstiss (23:30):
I love that.
You're obviously recognised atthe very being, at the very
highest level of coaching.
So how do you now keep learningand improving?
Who are you learning from?
Mel Marshall (23:40):
I just think I try and put people around me that
stimulate me in that space andchallenge me.
I think I know where my gapsare.
So, like, in terms of like,like I've really put a quest on
physiology being my thing tokind of just accelerate and just
get better at it.
So you know, in terms of people, I think I've got a language of
people I can talk day in, dayout and I can go anywhere in
(24:01):
that space.
But I've just tried to testmyself and challenge myself in
different areas to push myselfand knowing what my gaps are.
I think that's really importantand I just it's.
For me it's all about people.
Like I had a brilliant coachingmentor called Rosie Mays oh
sorry I was at Loughborough well, rosie was at Loughborough when
(24:21):
I was at Loughborough.
Sue Anstiss (24:22):
Sorry, that was a bit of an emotional reaction
there.
Mel Marshall (24:24):
I love Rosie yeah, so we worked together and we're
still in contact now, obviously, but we've worked together for
about 10 years and she knew thatmy style of learning was
through, you know, interactionswith people, and she encouraged
me to do kind of this leadershipproject where I went out and I
interviewed 24 leaders.
I sat down with people likeAlex Ferguson, gareth Southgate,
baroness Sue Campbell, eddieJones, adrian Morehouse and just
(24:48):
I just immersed myself amidstthem as leaders and like what
are you about?
What's your reason why?
What are the challenges youface?
That's where I learn.
I learn through being able toquestion people, interact with
people and just absorb thedetails that I need from from
them and where they're at, andthat's where I get my learning.
I seek out people that can helpme get better.
Sue Anstiss (25:10):
Excellent you obviously celebrate all the
highs as a coach, but how hardis it also to deal with
disappointments when thoseathletes that you care for and
supported don't succeed?
Mel Marshall (25:21):
Breaks my heart and I think I don't know whether
this is because I was anex-athlete or because I'm quite
an empathetic person.
Some people can go home and go.
It was X, y and Z.
I'll always take it home as ifit was my fault and that's
something I've got to get betterat.
I just always think that whatcould I have done better?
I always take and that's, Ithink, comes from that.
(25:41):
I was one and I'm gettingbetter at that because you can't
take them all home.
But, oh God, it breaks my heart, especially when you feel like
did I do enough?
Was I enough?
Was I thinking enough?
Was I challenged enough?
But I think the more timeyou're spending it and this was
the I loved working with Adam so, so much.
(26:02):
It was the best experience andyou know, but the hardest thing
about working with him wasbecause we'd worked together so
long.
Oh, I felt it.
I felt it so hard every time hedidn't get a session that he
wanted or, oh, it would, um, god, it would run through me and um
, you know, you need, you need,I need to get better at that.
But that was the thing that Iin terms of when that moved and
(26:24):
that changed that it won't bethe same kind of depth of that
experience the next time around.
So like, empathy is my compass,but with empathy you absorb
everybody else's emotions.
So when I finished, like bigmajor meets, I'm like John
Coffey on the green mile I'mtired now, boss, it's all
(26:46):
escapes from me.
Sue Anstiss (26:48):
It's really interesting, isn't it?
Well, it's good to hear thatyou're still evolving and
learning and developing thosethings.
I think people look at you andthink, not yet.
Well, she's there, you've doneit, you've, you know, you kind
of got to the highest heights,but it is interesting that you
are still driven to keepimproving and to be learning
more.
Mel Marshall (27:06):
Yeah, you've got to go to bed an expert, but wake
up a novice.
And I think that's where humblestarts, and I always think the
difference between arrogance andconfidence is respect for other
people.
And you know, I'm just going totry and stay humble, try and
get better, and I think my bestdays are ahead of me and I just
want to keep chasing that.
Sue Anstiss (27:23):
You obviously have competed and experienced
championships at both levels, asan athlete and a coach at those
big global championships andyou've talked about kind of how
you feel Paul's side.
But would you rather look at aretrospective, looking back?
Would you rather have won thosegoals yourself or to support
athletes to be winning?
Mel Marshall (27:43):
I'll tell you what .
The one thing that I would wantis to still have abs.
That is the thing I miss interms of.
You know, I've now got flabsinstead of abs.
That is the thing that I missin terms of.
You know, I've now got flapsinstead of abs.
So that's the only thing Ireally miss about being an
athlete.
But definitely the moments withcoaching.
They're just so spectacular.
I used to get kind of endorphinhighs off racing, but the
(28:06):
coaching journey is just so muchmore emotional and I used to
think when I was a swimmer, Ithought I could be a coach.
You know, there's just coach,go home in the day and come back
could be any further from thetruth and you, you work as hard
as them, like you absorb as muchas them, and they'd be like, oh
no, you don't.
I'm like you have no idea, youhave no idea.
So I would say the moments as acoach are yeah, they outweigh
(28:29):
the moments as a an athlete it'sinteresting, though, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss (28:32):
because, because the coaches I talk to do say
that, and yet why do we not seemore people?
Because it's bloody hard, isn'tit coaching, but you almost
think, as a driver, then, tohave that opportunity to enjoy
that success of athletes wouldattract more people yeah, I
think that the reason why itgives you so much euphoria when
(28:52):
it comes off is because of it.
Mel Marshall (28:55):
There's so many downs along the way, so you do
experience a lot of lows andthat's why, when adam won in rio
, so euphoric because the thebattles you'd had to fight for
seven years with him, you know Ican't even begin to tell you
the the battles we had to fightto just get high performance
where we were, and so, in termsof that, I think that's why it
(29:18):
gives you these highs, but it'snot for the faint-hearted.
You know, if I look at what Ihad to endure to get to those
first results in terms of Rio,it was brutal, it was absolutely
brutal and it was there's notin terms of there was so much
thrown at you and you're on yourown.
You're completely on your ownand as somebody that is as a as
a need to have people aroundthem, you know even your team
(29:41):
around you.
You know even how good yourteam are.
You're still on your ownbecause they need you, and so
that's the hardest part of itbeing it's got amazing highs,
but you endure so much, and Ithink coaches now as well.
They're almost dealing withproblems of CEOs without the
legal team to support them,without the parents backing
(30:01):
sometimes.
And you, I'm on low budgetsbecause you're just getting
thrown left, right and centerwith challenges all the time.
You know, particularly incommunity sport, and we've got
to keep hold of our coaches.
It's so important becausecompetition is the bread of life
and you know coaching is thatis.
It's a.
It unlocks human potential andI just think we're not
(30:23):
respecting our coaches enough,we're not valuing them and we're
not paying them enough,particularly at those community
levels, and we're not givinggiving them enough of a platform
to be a disciplinarian inpeople's lives.
And that's the problem.
No one wants no anymore andnobody wants.
Oh, that's not quite goodenough.
Everyone wants theparticipation medal and most
people who've not had that knowthat the biggest value in your
(30:45):
life is the one you don't winand the right education and
support around those challenges.
You become greater through itand also in life.
You know you have to have, knowand you have to come forth and
you have to not win stuff,because when you go to the job
interview, how on earth are yougoing to cope with the fact that
you're just used to it?
Everybody gets a go.
(31:06):
That's not true.
We're not preparing people forlife.
Sound like Piers Morgan, sorry.
Sue Anstiss (31:17):
I want to come and talk a little bit about female
coaches as well too.
So at the moment, uh, womenmake up only about 10 of olympic
level coaches.
That number hasn't reallyshifted in the last 20 years or
so.
So why do you think that is?
Why do you kind of personaltake?
Why do you feel that is?
Mel Marshall (31:32):
um, well, actually , you know, it's really
difficult to say.
I think I think the first thingis there needs to be a better
maternity package for femalecoaches.
I think that, unfortunately, incoaching, that you have to make
a choice.
You're either going to be aparent and take that time off or
you're not, and I think that'sthat's a real big challenge that
needs to be worked on in thesystem massively.
(31:54):
So I think that's the firstthing.
I think the second thing iswe're spending a lot of time.
Let's create a femaleempowerment movement, all that
kind of stuff.
I don't think the issue is withthe women.
I think the issue is the otherside of the fence, and I think
that I call it a continuum interms of coaching, and it's much
(32:14):
broader than this.
But there's feminine ways ofdoing things and there's
masculine ways of doing things.
You would class the moremasculine traits as setting
direction, leadership, givinghard feedback, embracing
conflict.
You'd express the more femaletraits as showing empathy,
showing emotion, showing care.
A great coach can do all ofthem.
(32:36):
And I think we shouldn't talkabout females and males.
We should talk about how do weimprove our workforce and our
coaches to be able to exhibitall of those tools along that
continuum, and I think that menshould be able to express
emotion and show empathy.
Men should be able to expressemotion and show empathy, and
(32:56):
and I think that women need tobe able to set direction and
embrace conflict and takefeedback.
And I don't think it's notabout men and women.
I think it's about what are thegreat traits of coaches and who
is living to those processes,and I actually think that more
opportunities need to be givenas well, but they have to be
earned I keep nodding my headand going excellent, excellent.
Sue Anstiss (33:17):
In some sports we do hear of female coaches who
then have their top athletespoached from them by more
experienced male coaches, orthey believe that actually they
should pass them across as theyreach a certain level.
Jenny Meadows spoke about thathappening quite a lot in
athletics.
Actually, is that somethingyou've experienced in swimming
or you've seen in swimming?
Mel Marshall (33:36):
Well, I think it's interesting because I probably
sit at both sides of the fenceon this because obviously I took
Adam from 15 all the waythrough to 30, effectively, and
if you'd asked me when he was 18, would I have passed him on?
One of the things that I wasn'tgoing to do was no way.
But I also wasn't selfish inthe way that I didn't ever do
(33:57):
anything that was going to holdhim back.
I worked 50 times harder tomake sure we had enough where we
were to keep him being able toget more and more and more.
So I challenged myself of he'sgreat, but I need to find the
very, very best for him.
And if I can't find the very,very best for him and give him
the very, very, then I have tolet him go.
But my focus was I'm going toget him the best.
(34:18):
So if I need a mentor for him,if I need long course, if I need
better gym coach, if I need, Iwent out and got it.
But there's some people thatwant to hold on to them.
They don't have that, and so Ijust think it's a case by case
scenario, but ultimately therecomes a point when, if you can't
provide it, you've got to letthem go.
(34:39):
And the other one is, you know,if they've been in the program
for seven, eight years, unlessyou can reinvent it and reinvent
it and change it, they need tofind something different.
And the other one is that youneed to be of the level to be
able to take them to that space.
I was lucky because I'd been toOlympic sport.
(35:00):
I knew what I was looking for.
And if you asked me what ittook, I was only able to do it
because I was under 30.
Because it took four in themorning until 10 at night and it
took nine weeks without daysoff.
And I wouldn't have been ableto do that when I was 40.
But when I was 20 to 34, Icould do it.
So I was headstrong andridiculous in a lot of ways to
(35:23):
keep hold of him, but I justwholeheartedly believed I could
give him the best and I foughttooth and nail and what I did
was I worked five jobs to makeit happen.
But I couldn't have done thatwhen I was 35.
But I was 26 and I'd just comeout of swimming and so I thought
, oh, 4am till 10pm, no big deal, like you do.
Sue Anstiss (35:47):
There's clearly a lack of female coaching role
models at that top level and I'mso grateful to you for coming
on board as one of the patronsfor the Women's Sport Collective
Coaching Hub.
Now, I'm so grateful to you forcoming on board as one of the
patrons for the Women's SportCollective Coaching Hub and it
is amazing to celebrate thosetop level female coaches.
But how important do you thinkit is that we have more of that
visibility and representation?
Mel Marshall (36:05):
Yeah, definitely.
I think there needs to beplatforms, female coaches, there
should be the face of Nike orthe face of Adidas or you know.
Those big sponsorship companiesneed to take hold of this and
brand somebody and put them onthat pedestal Because, you know,
if you see it and people see it, people want it.
I tell you what we see enoughof now, and I'm going to sound
like an old lady and a cynic,but we see enough of these
platforms that ruin great people, opinion after opinion after
(36:27):
opinion, and that's what we'reup against.
Actually, people now arefrightened to be good, to be
good, because look what comeswith it.
So I just think we need tocreate platforms, we need to
have visibility of greatcoaching, and also we just need
everybody to be talking about it.
We need partners in terms ofmale counterparts.
We need that to have a voice.
We need women to have a voice,and I just think we need to
(36:48):
create platforms to boot forvisibility, because there's
great things out there.
Sue Anstiss (36:52):
Do you feel pressure now as that high
profile that you're obviouslyone of those few female coaches
at the very top.
Do you enjoy that?
Is that something that justcomes with the role that you do?
Mel Marshall (37:02):
Listen, when you've grown up in Skegnesh,
nothing hurts you.
Do you know what I mean?
No, you know what.
I felt a lot of pressure withthe scenario with Adam and the
three-peat, because it felt likethe tide was against us and
I've learned a massive amountfrom that.
What kind of happened to me inthe last two years of my career?
(37:22):
Because it was so evident thatall of my eggs were in that
basket and we had to get thatdone and all the decisions that
I made were to protect thatperformance.
I sort of lost sight of why Istarted it, which is I love
coaching, the challenge ofhumans, and under pressure and
under stress I'd kind of lostsight of that.
So I've really that wholeprocess of trying to get the
(37:43):
three p and achieve that andthat's just taught me to.
You can only do what you can dolike as long as you hold
yourself accountable, as long asyou do the best that you can do
.
Sport is sport.
I hold myself accountable to myprocesses.
Am I doing a good job?
Am I communicating?
Am I writing good periodization?
Am I writing good sessions?
(38:04):
Am I taking care of myself?
And that's where I live andthat's what I made the decision
and that's what's been nice tobreak away, because that allows
me to just to just do that.
And there's pressure in whatI'm doing.
You know, I've got anincredible group, um, I've got
the, the double doubler.
So who's going to try and dothe double three-peat?
So who's that?
My name's Kaylee McEwan.
(38:25):
So she won the double in Tokyoand won the double in Paris.
But I got so wound up with itall last time.
It genuinely it just it took mysoul away and I'm just like,
just I don't want to do thatagain.
You know, I want to do itbecause I love it, and if I'm
not loving it, then I shouldn'tdo it.
Sue Anstiss (38:42):
And what's next for you?
Longer term, where do you seeyour career going in the future?
Will you stay in coaching that4am till 10pm?
But what would you like to dolong term?
Mel Marshall (38:51):
I mean, I really love it here and they've
obviously got a home olympics inbrisbane.
I I do a lot of leadershipstuff which I really enjoy.
I work for a really greatcompany called the leadership
high and, um, I do like thatspace.
So I feel like being inperformance sport and the things
that you learn.
I feel like, in terms of that,cross learning across businesses
(39:11):
is a good place.
I would love to be head ofperformance for something like
the Women's FA.
I would love that, but youprobably need a PhD.
But I've got a PhD in life.
I've actually got an honoraryone, which really annoys people
who have got a real one.
But yeah, I don't see myselfbeing on deck beyond Brisbane
and if an opportunity came onbeyond LA, I wouldn't be opposed
(39:32):
to that either.
I feel like I'm good atcoaching, but I feel like I'm
better at people.
I think the pool is just onething, but helping people lead
teams, helping people createwhat it is to be high
performance, having challengingconversations.
I feel like I can go into aroom and suss out what's going
on not quite quickly and I feellike I'd be a a room and suss
(39:53):
out what's going on not quitequickly and I feel like I'm a
I'd be a big asset for somepeople in that space.
Sue Anstiss (39:57):
So sort of giving you a CPD of what I want to do
next there, but yeah, but that,that kind of that's, that's my
passion and just finally, whatadvice would you give to younger
women, but those coming throughsport now that might be
thinking about coaching as acareer in the future?
Mel Marshall (40:20):
Right.
So I think that the thing isknowledge is power is the first
thing.
So you need to be the mostknowledgeable person in the room
and you need to have knowledgeon the things that you know that
other people will be talkingabout.
The second one is that my mumtold me before roller disco on a
Friday night right when I usedto get a bit nervous get in, get
stuck in, try your best, don'tthink about it too much and
enjoy yourself.
We spend in terms of I thinkit's a, I do think it's a female
(40:44):
trait, but we play it over andover in our head Just get stuck
in Like, don't think about ittoo much, get stuck in, yeah.
And the third one I would sayis that belief comes from inside
you.
So to get that inner beliefwhich will radiate wherever you
go, look at what you're good at,own that, look at where your
gaps are, own that and acceptthat and be the change that
(41:07):
you're looking for.
I think that's really important.
Sue Anstiss (41:33):
What an extraordinary and impressive
woman.
I think that's really important.
The game changes that are freeto listen to on all podcast
platforms or from our website atfearlesswomencouk.
My guests have includedOlympians, paralympians and
world champions, along withcoaches, entrepreneurs,
broadcasters, scientists,journalists and CEOs all women
who are changing the game insport.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
can also find out more about theWomen's Sport Collective, a
(41:54):
free, inclusive community forall women working in sport.
We now have over 10,500 membersacross the world, so please do
come and join us.
The whole of my book Game On theUnstoppable Rise of Women's
Sport is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Every episode of Series 13 isme reading a chapter of the book
.
Thank you once again to SportEngland for backing the Game
(42:18):
Changers and the Women's SportCollective through a National
Lottery Award, and to Sam Walkerat what Goes On Media, who does
such a brilliant job as ourexecutive producer.
Thank you also to my fantasticcolleague at Fearless Women,
kate Hannan.
You can find the Game Changerson all podcast platforms, so
(42:40):
please do follow us now and youwon't miss out on future
episodes.
Do come and say hello on socialmedia, where you'll find me at
Sue Anstis.
The Game Changers Fearlesswomen in sport.
Hello and welcome to The Game Changers.
I'm Sue Anstiss, and this isthe podcast where you'll hear
from trailblazing women in sportwho are knocking down barriers
and challenging the status quofor women and girls everywhere.
What can we learn from theirjourneys?
As we explore key issues aroundequality in sport and beyond,
we start, as always, with a bigthank you to our partners, Sport
(00:24):
England, who support the GameChangers podcast through a
national lottery award.
Today, I'm talking to someonewho has made a huge impact on
British sport, both in and outof the pool Mel Marshall.
Mel's a former Olympic swimmerwho's gone on to become one of
Britain's most respected coaches.
(00:45):
She's best known for coachingAdam Peaty to Olympic gold and
multiple world records, but herinfluence extends far beyond
just one athlete.
Through her work as lead coachat Aquatics GB, mel helped shape
the next generation of Britishswimmers, focusing on both their
performance and personaldevelopment.
As one of the most respectedfigures in high performance
(01:10):
sport, mel's coaching philosophyblends innovation, resilience
and an unwavering commitment toexcellence.
Her journey from competing atthe highest level to shaping the
next generation of champions issimply inspiring.
Mel was named British SwimCoach of the Year three times in
a row.
International Swim Coach of theYear in 2014 and in 2021, was
awarded an MBE in the Queen'sBirthday Honours.
(01:30):
So, Mel, can I start with whereyou are now?
Because last year, after theParis Olympics, you left your
role at Aquatics GB as leadcoach there to head to Australia
.
So what led to that decision?
Mel Marshall (01:45):
after three decades in British sport, I
think, what led to that decision.
There's a series of events anda series of things, but I think
it was that thing that you saidthere three decades in one place
.
I think there comes a time ineverybody's life that you have
to jump into new deep water andchallenge yourself and push
yourself.
And you know, an opportunitycame up here after Tokyo which I
(02:13):
didn't take and the opportunitykept presenting itself and
ultimately I thought it was theright time.
I thought it was the rightopportunity and I was 43 and I
wanted to just have a bit ofsunshine and a little bit of a
different kind of approach for acouple of years.
So that's the main reasonsreally.
Sue Anstiss (02:31):
And you're on the Gold Coast, so hopefully you
will get that sunshine.
But what is the new role thereand how does life compare to
being in Loughborough?
Mel Marshall (02:40):
Well, it's actually very similar to.
It's a posh skeg nest, that'show I would say.
So I feel like I'm a little bithome, but in terms of the role,
it's actually a very similarrole.
So I was the lead highperformance coach for GB
Aquatics in LoughboroughPerformance Centre and the role
here is very similar.
So I'm head of one of theAustralian hubs.
(03:01):
It's underpinned by GriffithUniversity one of the Australian
hubs.
It's underpinned by GriffithUniversity and ultimately it's
working with a high performanceteam, sports scientists and,
ultimately, great athletes.
And so you know, there's a lotof similarities to the role that
I did.
There's some things I'm reallycomfortable with and then
there's new things that I'mlearning and so, yeah, it kind
of sits in the same sort ofrealm as that, but different
(03:23):
group of humans and differentgroup of athletes.
Really.
Sue Anstiss (03:27):
And, as you say, you've not been there that long.
But have you seen anysignificant differences in this
sort of set up and approach toelite swimming in Australia
versus the GB?
Mel Marshall (03:37):
Yeah, there are some significant differences.
Actually, you know, if bothorganizations had a chat,
there'd be massive learningacross both.
There's cultural differenceshere.
What's quite evident here isthat, in terms of from a young
person perspective, you know,they're much more outdoorsy
While they are connected totheir phones.
They're not living throughtheir phones.
I think they're a bit tougherin terms of just athletes.
(04:00):
I just think that's justbecause they're outdoor
lifestyle and they're just quiterobust in that sense.
And I guess the system's quitesimilar in terms of you know
what was?
Uksi supports high performancesport, qas supports performance
sport.
So there's some similarities inthat.
The one thing I will say thatis very, very different here is
(04:20):
that the coach is much moreempowered yeah, massively so in
terms of decisions, makingdecisions, and there's a lot
more of a fluid transactionacross athletes and people move
from programs to programsbecause there's a bit more
talent, just there's a bit moredepth.
It doesn't mean to say, interms of where I've come from,
there wasn't quality, there wasabsolute quality, but just
(04:41):
there's a bit more of anabundance of it here.
Sue Anstiss (04:43):
And are you enjoying, then, that additional
opportunity to craft your ownkind of team and the work that
you're doing there?
Is that slightly different?
Mel Marshall (04:52):
Yeah, it is, and before you would be in a system
but you wouldn't be makingdecisions on staff or who's or
where's or how's and all thatkind of stuff.
And so, whereas here, very much, I was very much involved in
the process of, you know,picking my team and making sure
that you know the boardroom thatI have in front of me in terms
of my people is is my people.
So that's been, that was areally important part of the
(05:14):
move for me and ultimately, yeah, that was, that was a, that was
a big part of the move.
Sue Anstiss (05:21):
Excellent, and you're obviously an incredible
athlete yourself.
So, taking yourself back, whatdid draw you to swimming in the
first place?
And, I guess, what kept youhooked in a sport that can be so
brutal in terms of the traininghours in the pool and so on?
Mel Marshall (05:35):
Yeah, I mean it's quite a private story as to why
I came into swimming, but Ithink one of the things that
just I loved all sports and Ihad a very competitive dad who
basically we just competed ateverything.
So that was born in me and Ihad a very inspirational mum
that basically told me andtaught me, the big lesson in
(05:57):
life is if you're going to dosomething, you do it to the very
best of your ability.
And if you've got talent, youshould see that talent through.
So they were the kind of thingsthat were in my dna and they
continue to be in my dna andthat's kind of how I found
myself into sport really, andI've got to say like, um, you
know, I'm, I'm clever enoughacademically and in terms of you
see things now in terms ofsport and its role in society,
(06:20):
and it seems to me like it'splaying less and less of a role
in the community and less andless of a role in school.
And it seems to me like it'splaying less and less of a role
in the community and less andless of a role in school and
education.
And I just look and I'm justlike I would not be anything
that I've been, if I didn't havethat vehicle of sport, because
I was academic but I didn'tthrive academically and I just
had that outlet, physically andemotionally, where I could
(06:42):
express myself.
And I just think that, from apoint of view of what sport is
to people and in a world that isbecoming more and more
unhealthy, we need to get somuch sport into primary schools.
We need to get kids lovingbeing active and I think that
50% of the curriculum should bephysical, because at that age
(07:03):
they should build a relationshipwith physical activity so that
it's ingrained and imprinted, sothat they live through it.
You know you get, you know doit too late and it's too late.
But so, yeah, that's just alittle bit of a.
Sue Anstiss (07:16):
Is it very different what you're seeing in
australia?
Is that different in terms ofattitudes?
Mel Marshall (07:20):
yeah, yeah, totally like kids are outdoors.
I saw a brilliant thing theother day right five lads on a
bike, fishing rods in theirbackpacks, and they were just
biking just going to go fishing.
And kids are out on the beach,they're surfing, they're
swimming, they're bikingeverywhere.
And so here, definitely they,just they just live physical
activity, much, much, just just,it's evident, it's everywhere
(07:44):
um, I mentioned earlier, didndidn't I, how I guess tough that
swim training is and can be.
Sue Anstiss (07:48):
I was a swimmer myself not to any level that
you're coaching or doing, but Idid swim in the pool in those
early mornings and similarlyI've sat poolside with my own
kids as well as a parent.
You're brave, I don't knowwhich is harder, but how did you
kind of maintain that approachas a younger swimmer, so that
staying focused and motivated?
We do hear about athletes,don't we, sometimes losing their
(08:08):
focus as teenagers.
Kate Richardson-Morsh actuallywas a guest on one of the first
series of the game changers andtalked about, as a teenager,
kind of losing her way and andneeding a wake-up call almost to
get her back into the sportagain.
Was there ever a moment for you, around teenage years perhaps,
where you weren't as motivated?
Mel Marshall (08:25):
yeah, completely.
I mean, if you look at anyathlete or any athlete's story,
it's always like that, it'snever a straight line.
Um, and effectively when I wasabout 17 or 18, you know I'd
been really committed to mysport for a long time.
I'd kind of qualified for theworld championships as a 15 year
old and then it all went to myhead a little bit, to be honest,
and I got a little bitunfocused and kind of sort of
(08:48):
tried to wing it and then I, youknow, narrowly missed the
Olympics in Sydney.
They took five, for really Ithink I came sixth by something
like eight, one hundredths.
You know, what I'd been doingduring that time was I'd been
playing a lot of soccer football, been playing a lot of football
.
I discovered going out and thefootball team that I was playing
with at the time they were kindof like I wouldn't say it was
girls' pub football, but it waskind of like it was just social
(09:11):
and I'd just discovered a newlife and I was still swimming,
but I wasn't really swimming.
And then I went to Loughboroughactually with one of the girls
that I'd played football withand she was studying there and
we'd her up all that kind ofstuff in terms of you know, she
was still playing for the team.
We picked her up on the way.
Anyway, I kind of just went fora visit from the swim program
(09:31):
and I was just like if I want todo it, I have to move to here.
So, effectively, I packed up mybags and moved that term.
But there was like a periodfrom kind of 17 to 18 and just
learned to drive and you know,life felt a lot easier and a lot
more fun than 7,000 metres inthe pool.
But it was a wake-up call ofmissing Sydney Olympics and it
(09:52):
was like you know, my mum'svoice in the back of my head in
terms of if you're going to dosomething, you should do it
properly.
So yeah, I just went to abetter environment and it was
much more suited to me to kindof to move my career on.
Sue Anstiss (10:05):
So were you in the swim program?
Were you studying atLoughborough and in the swim
program?
That was a kind of move.
Mel Marshall (10:15):
So that was that I was actually.
I was actually doing a BTEC atmy school and I had one more
year to do, but I transferredacross to the Loughborough
College and they were awesome.
They were so accommodating formy needs and then I just
continued down that route interms of education at
Loughborough and they wereflexible learning and, you know,
I got my degree at the end ofit took me eight years but it
was complementary of my swimmingand ultimately that that
(10:35):
program allowed me to, you know,compete in high performance
sport and get an educationalongside it, which was really,
really important and for my nextstage in my career and my life.
Sue Anstiss (10:45):
And you said that sort of disappointment around
Sydney heading into the AthensOlympics.
You kind of got your head down,amazing, went in.
You were ranked number one inthe world, I think, as you were
going in.
But you've described theexperience as going in the
fastest and coming out with abroken heart.
I'm not sure how often that'squoted back to you, but what,
yeah, sorry, I'm saying thatslightly ironically.
I'm not sure how often that'squoted back to you.
But what, yeah, sorry, I'msaying that slightly ironically.
(11:06):
I'm sure it is sorry, but whathappened there?
What was that experience?
Mel Marshall (11:10):
I'm over it, by the way, so we can talk.
Sue Anstiss (11:12):
Sorry, just dig it in again yeah, no, no, it's all
good.
Mel Marshall (11:16):
I mean, there's a whole series of things that led
to that result and a lot ofthose things I'm really thankful
for because they've really theygive it.
You know, they opened up myskill set as a coach, really in
terms of certainly a peoplecoach, and the thing is a series
of things.
You know, I was a first timeOlympian.
There was a large amount ofpressure.
I actually did my dissertationon the relationship between
(11:39):
organizational stress andburnout and I actually felt I
don't want to be one of thosekind of whingy people at the
post, because I thinkeverybody's always just trying
their best, but there wascertainly some pressures and
stresses that were laid downupon athletes at that time
because pretty much the resultswere across the board, people
were really high ranked, but itdidn't come off.
So I think there was someconditions that could have been
(12:02):
more facilitative of that.
I was a first-time Olympian.
I was someone that probablyfought hard to get where I got
to.
But did I believe in myselfdeep down?
Maybe not, and I think when youget to that stage you really
need to believe in yourself andsome things were just timing and
fate.
I talked to my old coach now andit was interesting because we
(12:23):
were both at a conferencetogether.
We're really close now Notclose, but we've got a really
good relationship now and hebasically the title of his talk
was excuse, I'm not going toswear, but my biggest 10 fuck
ups in coaching and I was numberone.
But what was great about thatmoment because I don't think
he'd apologized at the time, butthat was almost his way of
(12:45):
saying it wasn't just you, itwas, it was, it was all of it
and it was no one's fault.
And I'm, you know, we're, we'rekind of like we've moved on now
massively, but I'm sorry and so, yeah, it was quite a poignant
moment in life, but yeah.
Sue Anstiss (12:59):
So there out came 16th and and how has that
affected and impacted and shapedthe way that you coach today in
terms of that pressure down you?
Mel Marshall (13:15):
you talked, that you experienced then well,
there's a couple of things forme around that time.
Just that, the experienceduring the and the before and
the experience after, which wasprobably the most harrowing part
of it all.
But from that moment I vowed,if I was going to be a coach on
athletes' darkest days, I wouldnever leave them.
I would find a way I'd bringsome lights to the, because I
(13:38):
actually wrote a journal throughthat time which is not like me
and I put in the journal entryand I put it.
I felt like I was in a darkroom.
I didn't know how to turn thelights on and no one was going
to turn the lights on for me.
It's like when you read it back.
When I read it back, becausewhen I did my dissertation I
used a lot of journal entriesand I was just like that sort of
(13:58):
moment made me, I guess, aguardian of what I wanted to be
as a coach for athletes.
Next, and so effectively, I'lltalk about the Adam situation.
You know, what am I proud of issilver?
Of course I am, and they weremy hardest years of coaching
with him.
But my vow to I'm never goingto leave an athlete on their
(14:18):
darkest day.
You know, we had that kind oflike bit of a mental breakdown
in that space.
I stuck true to my word on that, no matter how difficult it was
to me.
So that to me was a realsuccess and I was really proud
of my values and really proud ofmy integrity to stand withstand
what I did.
Withstand because I think somepeople still walked out, but I
(14:39):
didn't.
Sue Anstiss (14:41):
You retired from swimming after the Beijing
Olympics in 2008 and I know manyathletes struggle to find that
next transition into a careerafter retirement, but you seem
to go straight into coaching.
You took that love of sport.
Why do you think that was foryou?
Had you always known you wantedto coach as a younger athlete?
Mel Marshall (15:00):
Well, interestingly, yes and no.
So I always wanted to be a PEteacher.
So I'd kind of pursuedeverything to be a PE teacher.
You know I'd done my CSLA andHSLA and you know, done all the
courses to be a teacher.
At the end of my career, really,and then towards like when I
was an athlete, you used to getsent to these places where you
(15:20):
were the superstar athlete and Iremember getting sent to
Pembrokeshire and there was itwas a four-lane pool and 90.
And this would be a regularthing where you just get sent
somewhere and you'd have toentertain 90 children for two
and a half hours.
And I started to think I'mgoing to need something in my
back pocket here so that I cancoach them, give them an
(15:43):
experience, all that kind ofstuff.
And that's sort of where theblend of me being a PE teacher,
wanting to be a PE teacher andthen the coaching came in and
I'd kind of kind of masteredthis thing where you can just
turn up, coach 90 people andthen disappear.
And anyway, straight after theOlympics I was on holiday in the
Maldives thanks UK sport and umand effectively I was just
(16:06):
applying for coaching jobsbecause I had I had like my
dissertation left to write andone module left for university.
So I needed a job to kind ofsupport and I applied for two
coaching jobs, one that wouldn'tgive me an interview and then
one that was the small club ofCity of Derby, and ultimately
they learned.
I'll be forever thankful becausethey they sort of took a chance
on me and I took a chance onthem and from the moment I
(16:28):
started I was in love with it.
I was addicted to it from thestart.
So I was really lucky in thatsense and I actually used to get
more of a buzz from coachingthan I ever did from swimming.
And the beauty of that programwas because it was we started
here.
We won quite a lot of stuff andso you got this real kind of
buzz, like when we won the DiddyLeague, the under 12s, and then
when we got the arena leaguefinal, it was all like and the
(16:50):
club club had never been therefor a long time.
So it was just an amazing clubto be part of and we took it
from 12 regional qualifiers toadam winning the olympics, lewis
white winning a paralympicbronze medal and a whole host of
international.
So it was.
It was quite a rags to richesstory and it was um a great
eight years that I had there doyou think we do enough to
(17:12):
encourage athletes to thinkabout coaching post their sport?
Sue Anstiss (17:15):
because is it?
It's interesting you said whenyou said about that getting the
qualifications.
I know when I spoke to JennyMeadows she talked about as an
athlete rocking up to events andfeeling she needed to get her
level one, level two, levelthree so she could talk
confidently when she was atevents and so on, and then that
kind of led her into coaching.
But why do you think we don'tdo more of that as a entity,
(17:35):
almost to encourage all athletesto be thinking about coaching?
Mel Marshall (17:42):
Yeah, I think it is a real massive vehicle.
And I remember, and I'm goingto tell you a story.
So I'd just spent 20 years insport, I'd just spent at the
front line as an athlete, and Iwent to a coach's conference and
this particular person that satabove me I was trying to get
some kind of funding andunderstanding about how to
access a level three.
No, so I was trying to get someaccess, to access some
(18:03):
volunteers to come into theprogram.
And this particular person, whoI knew pretty well, said to me
he goes are you a level three?
And I went oh, not, yet I'mjust going through the process.
He goes well, I'm not going totalk to you until you've got a
level three.
And you know what was reallygood about that was I thought
right, I'm going to have mylevel three and in four years
time you're going to ask me tospeak at this conference.
And they did.
(18:33):
And it's so disappointing thatyou know that kind of behavior
is around from people that sitabove.
And I always used to say and Iactually sat in, it was actually
paul manning from cycling andwe were in one of those cohorts,
it was the elite coach cohortwith um uk sport and he was on
the course at the start and um,there was an argument with
someone was a little bit olderand it was a bit conflicted.
It was great space and he said avery poignant point because the
other person had said, oh,you're only 41.
(18:54):
He goes, but I've been on mybike for 25 years, so in my head
I'm older and that's the thingthat athletes have is.
Not every athlete will havethat, but if you can translate
that experience and get them tobe able to translate it back in
their head, the wisdom that's inthere, if you can unlock it, in
my humble opinion is somethingthat should be tapped into
(19:14):
because they've just spent 20years living it.
I actually feel felt morequalified to do what I do when
it came out of sport than I donow and I'm I've been out of it
a little bit because you've beenon the front line and you know
what it's about and what it'slike.
But the key to a good coach isbeing able to translate your
experience into usefulinformation for other people,
because you can't just sit thereand go well in my day, because
(19:35):
that me reliving my career in2008 is not going to help the
current world record holder thatI'm working with.
Sue Anstiss (19:41):
And how would your athletes today describe you as a
coach?
Do you think?
Mel Marshall (19:47):
I'd be an interesting one.
I think they would say that Iwas entertaining.
I think they would say that Iwas probably firm but fair, and
I think they would say that Iwas creative.
I'd like to hope that theywould say those things anyway.
Sue Anstiss (20:02):
And your relationship, your coaching
relationship with Adam Peaty hasbeen extraordinarily successful
, as I mentioned in the intro.
People obviously know thatanyway, but what do you think
has been the the key to thatrelationship?
Mel Marshall (20:15):
Well, a couple of things.
I think we've been able toreinvent ourselves.
It's always been trying to pushthe boundaries or make it fresh
or change it up or move itaround, or you know.
I think we've been able toreinvent ourselves year upon
year, and I think that's beenone of the key things.
I think another thing is thatwe're quite similar in our
desires for high performance,and so, you know, we're very
(20:37):
competitive, we want to achievegreat things, and we're kind of
both working class human beingsthat, I guess, want to work our
way to the top, and the otherone is just around.
How do you say it?
We think the same.
I think that was the one thingthat was.
(20:57):
That was really, that wasobvious, was like, we're wired
very similar, which is whysometimes we would clash and but
why sometimes, when it ran insynergy, it ran in synergy and I
think there was just.
I think, in terms of we neededeach other, you know, in terms
of there were so many times whenwe needed what it was that we
were to move through to the nextround and you've obviously
(21:20):
worked with many world-classathletes.
Sue Anstiss (21:22):
So what qualities do you think you need to see in
them as a coach, as you'remeeting for the first time, that
enables you to know they couldsucceed at the highest level.
Are there, are there attributesthat you see?
Mel Marshall (21:33):
yeah, competitive.
So you know there's people thatcan.
I, I would stand in front ofnine athletes and they would all
have a different why?
And I think that that's valiant, and I think that it's about
people going to their bestversion of themselves.
But those super greats are justtraumatized by losing.
(21:56):
But I don't think it's aboutthe winning, I actually think
it's they're terrorized by thethought of losing, and the more
they win, the more terrorizedthey get.
So therefore, the more theypush, they get addicted to it,
and I think that's probably thedifference between those ones
that are the goods, the greatsand the all-time greats.
It's just this insanecompetitiveness.
Sue Anstiss (22:16):
I'm smiling, but it doesn't really sound very
healthy, does it really?
Mel Marshall (22:19):
you know it's not, it's not and that's the thing
is in terms of it.
It does, it terrorizes them andit's a real, I feel in terms of
that space you do have to likeI remember some sessions with
Adam and if it wasn't moving, oh, he'd be traumatized, it'd be
like a full on grief, it'd bedevastating for him.
(22:40):
And you know, if you've gotlogic, it's kind of like, well,
actually it's only moved, it'sonly not moved a little bit, and
you've had plenty of other ones, but that's the thing that
keeps him awake at night alittle bit, and you've had
plenty of other ones, but that'sthe thing that keeps them awake
at night.
And it is.
It isn't healthy.
And it's about getting thatbalance of how they can, you
know, activate that superstrength that they've got, but
not send themselves kind of likedestabilize themselves with it.
(23:04):
And I always used to summarizeit with adam with I want you to
be fiercely competitive like thevery, very most you know most
competitive person in the world,but you don want you to be
fiercely competitive like thevery, very most you know most
competitive person in the world,but you don't need to be that
when you're in the supermarketand there's one loaf of bread
and the 85 year old grandma isalso going for it.
So just trying to help themcontextualize where you place
(23:24):
that super strength and what's apositive experience with it and
what can be a negativeexperience with it.
Sue Anstiss (23:30):
I love that.
You're obviously recognised atthe very being, at the very
highest level of coaching.
So how do you now keep learningand improving?
Who are you learning from?
Mel Marshall (23:40):
I just think I try and put people around me that
stimulate me in that space andchallenge me.
I think I know where my gapsare.
So, like, in terms of like,like I've really put a quest on
physiology being my thing tokind of just accelerate and just
get better at it.
So you know, in terms of people, I think I've got a language of
people I can talk day in, dayout and I can go anywhere in
(24:01):
that space.
But I've just tried to testmyself and challenge myself in
different areas to push myselfand knowing what my gaps are.
I think that's really importantand I just it's.
For me it's all about people.
Like I had a brilliant coachingmentor called Rosie Mays oh
sorry I was at Loughborough well, rosie was at Loughborough when
(24:21):
I was at Loughborough.
Sue Anstiss (24:22):
Sorry, that was a bit of an emotional reaction
there.
Mel Marshall (24:24):
I love Rosie yeah, so we worked together and we're
still in contact now, obviously, but we've worked together for
about 10 years and she knew thatmy style of learning was
through, you know, interactionswith people, and she encouraged
me to do kind of this leadershipproject where I went out and I
interviewed 24 leaders.
I sat down with people likeAlex Ferguson, gareth Southgate,
baroness Sue Campbell, eddieJones, adrian Morehouse and just
(24:48):
I just immersed myself amidstthem as leaders and like what
are you about?
What's your reason why?
What are the challenges youface?
That's where I learn.
I learn through being able toquestion people, interact with
people and just absorb thedetails that I need from from
them and where they're at, andthat's where I get my learning.
I seek out people that can helpme get better.
Sue Anstiss (25:10):
Excellent you obviously celebrate all the
highs as a coach, but how hardis it also to deal with
disappointments when thoseathletes that you care for and
supported don't succeed?
Mel Marshall (25:21):
Breaks my heart and I think I don't know whether
this is because I was anex-athlete or because I'm quite
an empathetic person.
Some people can go home and go.
It was X, y and Z.
I'll always take it home as ifit was my fault and that's
something I've got to get betterat.
I just always think that whatcould I have done better?
I always take and that's, Ithink, comes from that.
(25:41):
I was one and I'm gettingbetter at that because you can't
take them all home.
But, oh God, it breaks my heart, especially when you feel like
did I do enough?
Was I enough?
Was I thinking enough?
Was I challenged enough?
But I think the more timeyou're spending it and this was
the I loved working with Adam so, so much.
(26:02):
It was the best experience andyou know, but the hardest thing
about working with him wasbecause we'd worked together so
long.
Oh, I felt it.
I felt it so hard every time hedidn't get a session that he
wanted or, oh, it would, um, god, it would run through me and um
, you know, you need, you need,I need to get better at that.
But that was the thing that Iin terms of when that moved and
(26:24):
that changed that it won't bethe same kind of depth of that
experience the next time around.
So like, empathy is my compass,but with empathy you absorb
everybody else's emotions.
So when I finished, like bigmajor meets, I'm like John
Coffey on the green mile I'mtired now, boss, it's all
(26:46):
escapes from me.
Sue Anstiss (26:48):
It's really interesting, isn't it?
Well, it's good to hear thatyou're still evolving and
learning and developing thosethings.
I think people look at you andthink, not yet.
Well, she's there, you've doneit, you've, you know, you kind
of got to the highest heights,but it is interesting that you
are still driven to keepimproving and to be learning
more.
Mel Marshall (27:06):
Yeah, you've got to go to bed an expert, but wake
up a novice.
And I think that's where humblestarts, and I always think the
difference between arrogance andconfidence is respect for other
people.
And you know, I'm just going totry and stay humble, try and
get better, and I think my bestdays are ahead of me and I just
want to keep chasing that.
Sue Anstiss (27:23):
You obviously have competed and experienced
championships at both levels, asan athlete and a coach at those
big global championships andyou've talked about kind of how
you feel Paul's side.
But would you rather look at aretrospective, looking back?
Would you rather have won thosegoals yourself or to support
athletes to be winning?
Mel Marshall (27:43):
I'll tell you what .
The one thing that I would wantis to still have abs.
That is the thing I miss interms of.
You know, I've now got flabsinstead of abs.
That is the thing that I missin terms of.
You know, I've now got flapsinstead of abs.
So that's the only thing Ireally miss about being an
athlete.
But definitely the moments withcoaching.
They're just so spectacular.
I used to get kind of endorphinhighs off racing, but the
(28:06):
coaching journey is just so muchmore emotional and I used to
think when I was a swimmer, Ithought I could be a coach.
You know, there's just coach,go home in the day and come back
could be any further from thetruth and you, you work as hard
as them, like you absorb as muchas them, and they'd be like, oh
no, you don't.
I'm like you have no idea, youhave no idea.
So I would say the moments as acoach are yeah, they outweigh
(28:29):
the moments as a an athlete it'sinteresting, though, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss (28:32):
because, because the coaches I talk to do say
that, and yet why do we not seemore people?
Because it's bloody hard, isn'tit coaching, but you almost
think, as a driver, then, tohave that opportunity to enjoy
that success of athletes wouldattract more people yeah, I
think that the reason why itgives you so much euphoria when
(28:52):
it comes off is because of it.
Mel Marshall (28:55):
There's so many downs along the way, so you do
experience a lot of lows andthat's why, when adam won in rio
, so euphoric because the thebattles you'd had to fight for
seven years with him, you know Ican't even begin to tell you
the the battles we had to fightto just get high performance
where we were, and so, in termsof that, I think that's why it
(29:18):
gives you these highs, but it'snot for the faint-hearted.
You know, if I look at what Ihad to endure to get to those
first results in terms of Rio,it was brutal, it was absolutely
brutal and it was there's notin terms of there was so much
thrown at you and you're on yourown.
You're completely on your ownand as somebody that is as a as
a need to have people aroundthem, you know even your team
(29:41):
around you.
You know even how good yourteam are.
You're still on your ownbecause they need you, and so
that's the hardest part of itbeing it's got amazing highs,
but you endure so much, and Ithink coaches now as well.
They're almost dealing withproblems of CEOs without the
legal team to support them,without the parents backing
(30:01):
sometimes.
And you, I'm on low budgetsbecause you're just getting
thrown left, right and centerwith challenges all the time.
You know, particularly incommunity sport, and we've got
to keep hold of our coaches.
It's so important becausecompetition is the bread of life
and you know coaching is thatis.
It's a.
It unlocks human potential andI just think we're not
(30:23):
respecting our coaches enough,we're not valuing them and we're
not paying them enough,particularly at those community
levels, and we're not givinggiving them enough of a platform
to be a disciplinarian inpeople's lives.
And that's the problem.
No one wants no anymore andnobody wants.
Oh, that's not quite goodenough.
Everyone wants theparticipation medal and most
people who've not had that knowthat the biggest value in your
(30:45):
life is the one you don't winand the right education and
support around those challenges.
You become greater through itand also in life.
You know you have to have, knowand you have to come forth and
you have to not win stuff,because when you go to the job
interview, how on earth are yougoing to cope with the fact that
you're just used to it?
Everybody gets a go.
(31:06):
That's not true.
We're not preparing people forlife.
Sound like Piers Morgan, sorry.
Sue Anstiss (31:17):
I want to come and talk a little bit about female
coaches as well too.
So at the moment, uh, womenmake up only about 10 of olympic
level coaches.
That number hasn't reallyshifted in the last 20 years or
so.
So why do you think that is?
Why do you kind of personaltake?
Why do you feel that is?
Mel Marshall (31:32):
um, well, actually , you know, it's really
difficult to say.
I think I think the first thingis there needs to be a better
maternity package for femalecoaches.
I think that, unfortunately, incoaching, that you have to make
a choice.
You're either going to be aparent and take that time off or
you're not, and I think that'sthat's a real big challenge that
needs to be worked on in thesystem massively.
(31:54):
So I think that's the firstthing.
I think the second thing iswe're spending a lot of time.
Let's create a femaleempowerment movement, all that
kind of stuff.
I don't think the issue is withthe women.
I think the issue is the otherside of the fence, and I think
that I call it a continuum interms of coaching, and it's much
(32:14):
broader than this.
But there's feminine ways ofdoing things and there's
masculine ways of doing things.
You would class the moremasculine traits as setting
direction, leadership, givinghard feedback, embracing
conflict.
You'd express the more femaletraits as showing empathy,
showing emotion, showing care.
A great coach can do all ofthem.
(32:36):
And I think we shouldn't talkabout females and males.
We should talk about how do weimprove our workforce and our
coaches to be able to exhibitall of those tools along that
continuum, and I think that menshould be able to express
emotion and show empathy.
Men should be able to expressemotion and show empathy, and
(32:56):
and I think that women need tobe able to set direction and
embrace conflict and takefeedback.
And I don't think it's notabout men and women.
I think it's about what are thegreat traits of coaches and who
is living to those processes,and I actually think that more
opportunities need to be givenas well, but they have to be
earned I keep nodding my headand going excellent, excellent.
Sue Anstiss (33:17):
In some sports we do hear of female coaches who
then have their top athletespoached from them by more
experienced male coaches, orthey believe that actually they
should pass them across as theyreach a certain level.
Jenny Meadows spoke about thathappening quite a lot in
athletics.
Actually, is that somethingyou've experienced in swimming
or you've seen in swimming?
Mel Marshall (33:36):
Well, I think it's interesting because I probably
sit at both sides of the fenceon this because obviously I took
Adam from 15 all the waythrough to 30, effectively, and
if you'd asked me when he was 18, would I have passed him on?
One of the things that I wasn'tgoing to do was no way.
But I also wasn't selfish inthe way that I didn't ever do
(33:57):
anything that was going to holdhim back.
I worked 50 times harder tomake sure we had enough where we
were to keep him being able toget more and more and more.
So I challenged myself of he'sgreat, but I need to find the
very, very best for him.
And if I can't find the very,very best for him and give him
the very, very, then I have tolet him go.
But my focus was I'm going toget him the best.
(34:18):
So if I need a mentor for him,if I need long course, if I need
better gym coach, if I need, Iwent out and got it.
But there's some people thatwant to hold on to them.
They don't have that, and so Ijust think it's a case by case
scenario, but ultimately therecomes a point when, if you can't
provide it, you've got to letthem go.
(34:39):
And the other one is, you know,if they've been in the program
for seven, eight years, unlessyou can reinvent it and reinvent
it and change it, they need tofind something different.
And the other one is that youneed to be of the level to be
able to take them to that space.
I was lucky because I'd been toOlympic sport.
(35:00):
I knew what I was looking for.
And if you asked me what ittook, I was only able to do it
because I was under 30.
Because it took four in themorning until 10 at night and it
took nine weeks without daysoff.
And I wouldn't have been ableto do that when I was 40.
But when I was 20 to 34, Icould do it.
So I was headstrong andridiculous in a lot of ways to
(35:23):
keep hold of him, but I justwholeheartedly believed I could
give him the best and I foughttooth and nail and what I did
was I worked five jobs to makeit happen.
But I couldn't have done thatwhen I was 35.
But I was 26 and I'd just comeout of swimming and so I thought
, oh, 4am till 10pm, no big deal, like you do.
Sue Anstiss (35:47):
There's clearly a lack of female coaching role
models at that top level and I'mso grateful to you for coming
on board as one of the patronsfor the Women's Sport Collective
Coaching Hub.
Now, I'm so grateful to you forcoming on board as one of the
patrons for the Women's SportCollective Coaching Hub and it
is amazing to celebrate thosetop level female coaches.
But how important do you thinkit is that we have more of that
visibility and representation?
Mel Marshall (36:05):
Yeah, definitely.
I think there needs to beplatforms, female coaches, there
should be the face of Nike orthe face of Adidas or you know.
Those big sponsorship companiesneed to take hold of this and
brand somebody and put them onthat pedestal Because, you know,
if you see it and people see it, people want it.
I tell you what we see enoughof now, and I'm going to sound
like an old lady and a cynic,but we see enough of these
platforms that ruin great people, opinion after opinion after
(36:27):
opinion, and that's what we'reup against.
Actually, people now arefrightened to be good, to be
good, because look what comeswith it.
So I just think we need tocreate platforms, we need to
have visibility of greatcoaching, and also we just need
everybody to be talking about it.
We need partners in terms ofmale counterparts.
We need that to have a voice.
We need women to have a voice,and I just think we need to
(36:48):
create platforms to boot forvisibility, because there's
great things out there.
Sue Anstiss (36:52):
Do you feel pressure now as that high
profile that you're obviouslyone of those few female coaches
at the very top.
Do you enjoy that?
Is that something that justcomes with the role that you do?
Mel Marshall (37:02):
Listen, when you've grown up in Skegnesh,
nothing hurts you.
Do you know what I mean?
No, you know what.
I felt a lot of pressure withthe scenario with Adam and the
three-peat, because it felt likethe tide was against us and
I've learned a massive amountfrom that.
What kind of happened to me inthe last two years of my career?
(37:22):
Because it was so evident thatall of my eggs were in that
basket and we had to get thatdone and all the decisions that
I made were to protect thatperformance.
I sort of lost sight of why Istarted it, which is I love
coaching, the challenge ofhumans, and under pressure and
under stress I'd kind of lostsight of that.
So I've really that wholeprocess of trying to get the
(37:43):
three p and achieve that andthat's just taught me to.
You can only do what you can dolike as long as you hold
yourself accountable, as long asyou do the best that you can do
.
Sport is sport.
I hold myself accountable to myprocesses.
Am I doing a good job?
Am I communicating?
Am I writing good periodization?
Am I writing good sessions?
(38:04):
Am I taking care of myself?
And that's where I live andthat's what I made the decision
and that's what's been nice tobreak away, because that allows
me to just to just do that.
And there's pressure in whatI'm doing.
You know, I've got anincredible group, um, I've got
the, the double doubler.
So who's going to try and dothe double three-peat?
So who's that?
My name's Kaylee McEwan.
(38:25):
So she won the double in Tokyoand won the double in Paris.
But I got so wound up with itall last time.
It genuinely it just it took mysoul away and I'm just like,
just I don't want to do thatagain.
You know, I want to do itbecause I love it, and if I'm
not loving it, then I shouldn'tdo it.
Sue Anstiss (38:42):
And what's next for you?
Longer term, where do you seeyour career going in the future?
Will you stay in coaching that4am till 10pm?
But what would you like to dolong term?
Mel Marshall (38:51):
I mean, I really love it here and they've
obviously got a home olympics inbrisbane.
I I do a lot of leadershipstuff which I really enjoy.
I work for a really greatcompany called the leadership
high and, um, I do like thatspace.
So I feel like being inperformance sport and the things
that you learn.
I feel like, in terms of that,cross learning across businesses
(39:11):
is a good place.
I would love to be head ofperformance for something like
the Women's FA.
I would love that, but youprobably need a PhD.
But I've got a PhD in life.
I've actually got an honoraryone, which really annoys people
who have got a real one.
But yeah, I don't see myselfbeing on deck beyond Brisbane
and if an opportunity came onbeyond LA, I wouldn't be opposed
(39:32):
to that either.
I feel like I'm good atcoaching, but I feel like I'm
better at people.
I think the pool is just onething, but helping people lead
teams, helping people createwhat it is to be high
performance, having challengingconversations.
I feel like I can go into aroom and suss out what's going
on not quite quickly and I feellike I'd be a a room and suss
(39:53):
out what's going on not quitequickly and I feel like I'm a
I'd be a big asset for somepeople in that space.
Sue Anstiss (39:57):
So sort of giving you a CPD of what I want to do
next there, but yeah, but that,that kind of that's, that's my
passion and just finally, whatadvice would you give to younger
women, but those coming throughsport now that might be
thinking about coaching as acareer in the future?
Mel Marshall (40:20):
Right.
So I think that the thing isknowledge is power is the first
thing.
So you need to be the mostknowledgeable person in the room
and you need to have knowledgeon the things that you know that
other people will be talkingabout.
The second one is that my mumtold me before roller disco on a
Friday night right when I usedto get a bit nervous get in, get
stuck in, try your best, don'tthink about it too much and
enjoy yourself.
We spend in terms of I thinkit's a, I do think it's a female
(40:44):
trait, but we play it over andover in our head Just get stuck
in Like, don't think about ittoo much, get stuck in, yeah.
And the third one I would sayis that belief comes from inside
you.
So to get that inner beliefwhich will radiate wherever you
go, look at what you're good at,own that, look at where your
gaps are, own that and acceptthat and be the change that
(41:07):
you're looking for.
I think that's really important.
Sue Anstiss (41:33):
What an extraordinary and impressive
woman.
I think that's really important.
The game changes that are freeto listen to on all podcast
platforms or from our website atfearlesswomencouk.
My guests have includedOlympians, paralympians and
world champions, along withcoaches, entrepreneurs,
broadcasters, scientists,journalists and CEOs all women
who are changing the game insport.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
can also find out more about theWomen's Sport Collective, a
(41:54):
free, inclusive community forall women working in sport.
We now have over 10,500 membersacross the world, so please do
come and join us.
The whole of my book Game On theUnstoppable Rise of Women's
Sport is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Every episode of Series 13 isme reading a chapter of the book
.
Thank you once again to SportEngland for backing the Game
(42:18):
Changers and the Women's SportCollective through a National
Lottery Award, and to Sam Walkerat what Goes On Media, who does
such a brilliant job as ourexecutive producer.
Thank you also to my fantasticcolleague at Fearless Women,
kate Hannan.
You can find the Game Changerson all podcast platforms, so
(42:40):
please do follow us now and youwon't miss out on future
episodes.
Do come and say hello on socialmedia, where you'll find me at
Sue Anstis.
The Game Changers Fearlesswomen in sport.
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