Mhairi Maclennan: Ensuring sport is safe for everyone

“Anyone can get abused. Smart people, really intelligent people, old people, young people, beautiful people, average looking people. It doesn't matter who you are, you're not like exempt because of any characteristics that you have.”
Mhairi Maclennan, Kyniska Advocacy 

Today’s episode of The Game Changers podcast could be the most important ever. 

Over the past five years it’s been a privilege to share the stories of 150 trailblazers in women’s sport and to explore topics around equality in sport and beyond.

This final episode of series 18 considers a topic that should concern everyone that loves sport – how do we keep it safe for all participants? This episode is a must listen for all parents of children in sport, along everyone working in the sports industry.  

My guest is Mhairi Maclennan, the co-founder of Kyniska Advocacy. Mhairi is an elite GB athlete, who, in 2021, made the extraordinarily brave decision to waive her right to anonymity after suffering sexual abuse at the hands of her coach. 

Following a hugely impactful campaign that saw her coach’s three-year exclusion from athletics increased to a lifetime ban, Mhairi and fellow athlete Kate Seary founding Kyniska Advocacy, the UK’s only athlete-led and sport-wide safe sport organisation. 

I learnt so much in this powerful conversation with Mhairi. 

I was shocked to discover that there’s no obligation for sports to report coaches found guilty of sexual abuse to the police or local authorities; no central register exists to track banned coaches in the UK or globally and no independent body exists across sports to deal with the most serious cases.

Mhairi also provides incredibly useful guidance about what we should all be looking out for when it comes to abuse in sport, what the law says and what still needs to change.

In the episode we talk about Kyniska’s excellent Manifesto for the Future of Safe Sport. Here’s a link to the website where you will find it and many other useful resources: https://www.kyniskaadvocacy.com/

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

Episode Transcript

Sue Anstiss (00:02):
Hello and welcome to he Game Changers.
I'm Sue Anstis, and this is thepodcast where you'll hear from
trailblazing women in sport whoare knocking down barriers and
challenging the status quo forwomen and girls everywhere.
What can we learn from theirjourneys as we explore key
issues around equality in sportand beyond?
I'd like to start with a verybig thank you to our partners,

(00:24):
sport England, who support theGame Changers through a National
Lottery Award.
I'm excited to say that in this, the 18th series of the Game
Changers, I'm talking tofounders and entrepreneurs the
women who have set uporganisations that help change
the landscape for all women andgirls in sport.

(00:46):
My guest today is an eliteathlete who has represented the
GB team at cross country and onthe track and earlier this year
made her marathon debut inLondon, running an incredible
2.29 and becoming both Scottishand English champion in the
process and becoming bothScottish and English champion in
the process.
Mh is also the co-founder ofKyniska Advocacy, the UK's only

(01:09):
athlete-led and sport-wide safesport organisation.
Murray set up Kyniska followingher incredibly brave decision
to waive her right to anonymityafter suffering sexual abuse at
the hands of her coach.
The mission of Kyniska Advocacyis to create a sporting world
that protects, respects andcelebrates women in sport.

(01:30):
So, mari, you have had the mostamazing season in 2024.
Can you tell us about yourmarathon debut in London of such
an incredible time?

Mhairi Maclennan (01:44):
Thank you.
Yeah, oh, it was theculmination of a lot of
obviously physical training, butalso kind of mental,
psychological factors and, yeah,I don't it's hard to put words
to it, to be honest it was.
It was a phenomenal experienceand I think when I crossed that
line I felt, yes, pride and joy,but also just so much relief

(02:04):
that kind of everything had goneokay.
And you know, years leading upto making the decision to move
up to the marathon, I'd kind ofbeen plagued with more illness
than anything else and I just,yeah, was so glad, I was so
careful during the build to notget ill and it felt, I felt
really proud to cross the line,kind of in a just being
physically and mentally reallywell.
So, cross the line kind of in ajust being physically and

(02:25):
mentally really well, so, yeah,it was good, it was a really
amazing experience.

Sue Anstiss (02:30):
And was that a time you thought you could achieve
going into the race?

Mhairi Maclennan (02:34):
Um, I think, like time, goals are something
that evolve as you're trainingfor a competition.
So when I chose to do themarathon, I didn't think, oh, I
want to run xyz time, you know.
I chose to do the marathon, Ididn't think, oh, I want to run
X, y, z time, you know.
I think for me the goal was doa marathon, be competitive and
finish it.
And then, yes, by the time Iwas, you know, 10 weeks into

(02:54):
training, I think I had a kindof inkling that I wanted to run
under 230.
And, you know, on a fastercourse, maybe even faster, but
it's a goal that I was kind ofless married to, if you like.

Sue Anstiss (03:10):
And how did that feel in terms of a marathon in
itself, I should say I did runLondon 20 odd years ago in twice
the speed that you did.
I think that was just over fivehours, so it's actually double
the time.
But how did it feel as yourfirst marathon?

Mhairi Maclennan (03:26):
Yeah, phenomenal, and so exactly
double the time.
But how did it feel as yourfirst marathon?
Yeah, phenomenal.
Like we chose London because weknew that, regardless of how
the actual race went, it wouldbe an amazing experience.
The like, the crowds wereinsane.
The running through thesestreets was really cool.
You know, they're iconic and Iwas actually saying to my now
husband that I think if I'd doneLondon a couple of years ago it

(03:47):
would have meant less, becauseI didn't really know London as a
city when I was in my early 20s.
I just didn't spend much timethere, but because we'd kind of
our relationship had startedthere, you know, I was running
past like, oh, I remember whenwe went there, or like, you know
, and it's nice that you canalso sightsee.

Sue Anstiss (04:05):
So it was a nice first one to do what was it like
to have that success after thetough few years you mentioned
that you've had there did?
Were you getting to a levelthat you'd always hoped you'd be
at as a as a younger runner?

Mhairi Maclennan (04:16):
yeah, for sure .
I mean, it's such a I don'tknow why I've always I've always
been very emotional about themarathon, even as a youngster,
and I think running or being insport is weird because your
goals evolve right.
So, like I wasn't one of thosekids that sat and said I want to
go to the Olympics, I justdidn't think that I would ever

(04:36):
achieve something like that, andI obviously still haven't.
So it was more kind of yeah,doing a marathon, I think when I
was a teenager I read, likePaula Radcliffe and Liz
McColgan's autobiographies and Iwanted to do a marathon because
of that.
So it was probably one of thelongest standing goals I've ever
had.
And when I was at home oneweekend to do the Inverness half

(04:56):
marathon, which is Scottishhalf marathon champs I stumbled
across like an old scrapbookthat I'd kept as a teenager and
and in there it was like thingsI want to achieve before 30.
And one of them was run amarathon.
I'm 29.
I know, yeah, it was ahilarious kind of trip down

(05:16):
memory lane.
I'd also put like fall in love,tick, I was like 14.

Sue Anstiss (05:24):
And what are your ambitions now?
So can I have done that Ismarathon now the distance that
you will really go for in termsof future competition, or where
are you?
Yeah, I think so.

Mhairi Maclennan (05:35):
I mean they take a lot out of you, obviously
, and I think maybe that onetook more out of me mentally
than any other would, justbecause it's the first one and
like I'd had such a rocky startto to get there.
But yeah, I can't imaginemyself doing a load more like
10k training specifically, like,I think, quite happy to do them
as a part of a build, but Ireally enjoyed having that kind

(05:58):
of long-term goal and everythingelse has a purpose behind it,
whereas, whereas you know, whenyou're a bit younger and you've
got more energy, more motivation, and you just, like I, was
completely consumed by myrunning, I wanted to race every
weekend, whereas now, like Ican't think of anything worse.
I just want to like know whyI'm doing a race and it has to

(06:18):
have a particular function orgoal, or I'm not going to do it
because I also have a life now.

Sue Anstiss (06:27):
So, aside from all you do as an elite athlete,
you're also the co-founder ofKineska Advocacy, a non-profit
organisation with an ambition tosee policy changes that would
make the sporting world a safer,more supportive place, and your
journey started when youdecided to speak publicly about
the abuse you'd suffered.
I imagine it must have beenincredibly hard decision for you
to make at that time.

Mhairi Maclennan (06:49):
Uh yeah um, it was.
It was one of those decisionsthat kind of it took a really
long time to get to the pointwhere I was ready to do anything
about it and I had obviouslyhad encouragement from some.
Like you know, my mum hadalways said you really, I don't
think I never really disclosedthe full extent of it, um, she

(07:10):
just had a feeling that he was abit creepy.
And you know, she often saidyou really need to speak up
about this, you need to it likeit's your duty, and I just
wasn't ready and I was scaredand I didn't.
You know, there's a lot ofthings that go on in your head
when you're in those situationslike I used to think, oh, I
don't.
You know, there's a lot ofthings that go on in your head
when you're in those situationslike I used to think, oh, I
don't want to disrupt everybodyelse's training in the group,

(07:30):
yeah, and like, take their coachaway from them.
You know, like failing to thinkI'm actually removing them from
harm's way.
And so, yeah, it wasn't.
Actually I didn't do it alone.
There were two other youngwomen that came forward with me
and it was really because ofthem that I came forward.
I had left the training group atthis point because of other
allegations that had been madeagainst him, but nothing had

(07:52):
been done about them and I, so Iwas training with a.
I had a female coach, umdistance coaching, and these
young girls, um, sent me aFacebook message and said oh, we
want to report a coach and youprobably know who, and we were
told that you would be able tohelp.
I don't know who told them I'dbe able to help because I really
didn't know what to do, but Ijust I think I suddenly realized

(08:15):
this was much bigger than meand it was like I'd been
sticking my head in the sand fora really long time and
everything that had happened andeverything I'd been told or
that he had said over the pastsix years that I had been
coached by him, came floodingforward and I felt awful for not
having done something before.
So I think I really took itupon myself to try and support

(08:38):
the three of us to come forwardand, yeah, make right what I
felt I had been sitting on fortoo long.
And how old were you then?
So at that point I was 20, 23,22, but I had left the group.
I think I was 23 and I was 22when I left the group.

Sue Anstiss (09:00):
So it had been through your teenage, through
through 16, that kind of key age, yeah yeah, so I stayed.

Mhairi Maclennan (09:06):
yeah, I stayed way too long in that
environment.

Sue Anstiss (09:10):
And what was the process then?
From your speaking out withthese other young women to
almost the creation of Kyniskaas an entity?
What's that journey been like?

Mhairi Maclennan (09:20):
So around the time that we were reporting,
there was another athlete whohad created an Instagram page
called Signpost to Safety andshe had kind of set it up so
that there would be a touchpoint for athletes before they

(09:40):
went straight to welfareofficers so they could speak to
like a fellow athlete ratherthan going immediately to the
welfare officers, just to kindof create that bridge of
communication and it'd be lessintimidating.
And one of my friends was apart of it and had shared it on
her story and I saw it and Ithought, oh my gosh, that's so
timely.
And I think I just reached outto this athlete and I said, like
what you're doing is amazing.
Just knowing you're here andexist is a huge support to me.

(10:04):
I'm going through a reportingprocess right now and she
reached out and kind of became ahuge support to me, like really
, yeah, came into my life andyou know she was the first
person I cried in front of aboutthis.
I didn't know her at all, butshe'd been through this as well
and she knew what it was likeand it was definitely

(10:26):
uncomfortable because I was likeI don't really want to cry in
front of this person and I stilldidn't really know how I felt
about any of it.
But, yeah, she kind of stayedin touch and she, I remember,
like it was beautiful, she sentme and the other two girls like
some friendship bracelet thatshe said like united us through
this awful thing that we weregoing through and it was really,
really touching.
And then when initially my coachwas given a temporary ban so I

(10:52):
think I can't remember if it wasthree or five years, but it
wasn't very long and she reachedout to me when, like the day
that it had been published, soshe obviously was like looking
out for it because she knew thatI would see it.
And she reached out to me andasked me how I felt about it and
I also hadn't really thoughthow I felt about it.
I'd just seen it and feltincredibly relieved that I had

(11:13):
been listened to and believedand they'd done something about
it and I didn't really think, ohwell, it's only temporary.
And when she asked me, it kindof came again.
The realization that he wouldvery shortly be back coaching
and in my environment reallyscared me and she said, look,
I'm in conversations withanother athlete and we're

(11:33):
thinking about doing a campaignkind of on the basis of your
case and we want to ask forlifetime bans for coaches that
are found guilty of sexualmisconduct and abuse.
And I think because the wholeprocess of like obviously being
in an abusive, toxic environmentand then also going through the
investigation, it's sosilencing because you're

(11:54):
silenced by the perpetrator andthen you're silenced in the
investigation process becauseyou're told you're not allowed
to speak to people and youbecome really, really isolated.
And although this campaign thatthey were doing was for good,
because she said, oh, we'regoing to do it on your case, I
thought absolutely not, I'mgoing to be involved if this is
happening.
So I kind of suddenly pluckedmyself out of this quite passive

(12:16):
relationship with what hadhappened to me and said well, if
we're going to war, I'm comingwith you.
And the other athlete that shewas in touch with was Kate,
who's the co-founder of Canisca.
So Kate had kind of alreadywritten a public, open letter to
Welsh Athletics about the lackof support she'd received when
her coach was imprisoned.

(12:37):
And we came together as a threeand we worked pretty hard on
the letter, which was an openpetition to UK Athletics asking
for this policy change.
And it was quite successful andathletes listened to us and I
think that that's what reallyrung true for Kate and I.
The athlete who had set up thesignpost to safety had sort of

(12:59):
been battling against the systemfor some time already and I
think for her this was theculmination of a lot of years of
work and really took us tall,and her emotionally.
And when we were successful andlike getting a meeting with UK
Athletics and they said theywere going to change the policy,
this athlete decided to take astep back and said I can't do
this anymore.
I can't be in this space.

(13:19):
I don't think it's good for me.
But Kate and I really felt likeI had just arrived in this
space and I'd felt so empoweredand like emboldened by this
experience that I decided well,I didn't really want to leave it
.
And Kate had said I don't knowabout you, but I also feel like
this is just the beginning andshe had a lot of experience in

(13:39):
working in youth parliaments andat the time I was doing a PhD
in Spanish literature.
So like I was an academic, likeI was sitting reading books and
I probably wasn't reallyenjoying it that much like we
were just coming out of secondlockdown at this time and I,
yeah, I probably felt a bit of aloose end with my life.
And so when Kate said to me,like I want to do this on a more

(14:02):
full-time basis, like I want tocampaign, I want to make a
change, like I think we're goodat this and I think we do this
on a more full-time basis, likeI want to campaign, I want to
make a change, like I thinkwe're good at this and I think
we work well as a team, like doyou want to start a
not-for-profit?
I kind of just clutched at theopportunity and said yes, let's
do it.
And I knew absolutely nothingabout policy change.
I didn't even really understandwhat policy was like.
I was like policy, what's that?

(14:23):
So, yeah, that's kind of howKineska came to be.
You know, we then started.
I started applying for jobs inpolicy and public affairs, which
I obviously didn't get becauseI had no experience and I so I
did an internship at BritishHeart Foundation in policy and
public affairs.
Whilst we were launching Kineska.

(14:43):
You know, we did a bit ofresearch about what we could
call it and we affairs.
Whilst we were launchingKineska, we did a bit of
research about what we couldcall it and we thought what we
were doing was reasonablydifferent.
We didn't want to have women inthe name because we knew that
the policies we'd be advocatingfor would impact and positively,
hopefully impact everybody.
But we wanted to make it clearthat it had been a woman-founded
thing thing.

(15:04):
And I obviously had theliterature background.
Kate is really into classics,so we wanted something from
Greek mythology.
We thought that would give itstrength and we came across
Kaniska, who was actually a realhistorical figure, and that's
how we landed on the name.

Sue Anstiss (15:19):
I love that.
I just quickly tell us aboutbecause I'm going to come back
to talk to you about athletics.
But Kineska was thisextraordinary woman, wasn't she,
in terms of all she did?

Mhairi Maclennan (15:27):
she was.
I'm actually going to also pullup our website because we've
been pulled up for getting theuh, the exact wording on the
wrong um, we actually feature inan article by an academic about
misrepresentations of Kineskain modern times.
So how embarrassing.
But we were led to believe thatshe herself competed in the

(15:52):
Interim Olympics, which is nottrue, because actually it was
kind of what we would understandto be landed gentry and rich
people, kind of royalty.
They bought people to representthem.
So she was actually a slaveowner, probably, ultimately.
But women were banned from theolympic sanctuary during the
olympics and couldn't be a partof it in any way, shape or form.

(16:15):
So she was trailblazing in thatsense, and so yeah she.
She would have been awarded the, the olympic crowns in the
four-horse chariot race, twoOlympic cycles in a row, so in
396 and 392 BC.
And so, yeah, as the firstfemale winner.
I suppose in some ways shepaved the way for other women to

(16:35):
follow in her footsteps, whichthey did, and I guess how we
posit it is that we are doingthe work that she would be doing
today if she was still around,particularly because she post
facto erected a statue ofherself, some of which still
remains.
And she says in it, and I alonesay, of the woman, of all of

(16:57):
Greece, take this crown.
And so she was very bold, verybrave, and yeah, we kind of take
that energy into what we do.
I love that.

Sue Anstiss (17:07):
It's really interesting, isn't it?
It's like being called up onthe whole.
Yeah, she's a bit of a kick-asswoman and then actually some
academic comes back to correctyou on things.

Mhairi Maclennan (17:16):
Yeah, the academic was like it's not
strictly true.

Sue Anstiss (17:20):
I like your interpretation though it was
great, yeah, sounds great.
And just going back toathletics slightly, when you
went because I think you musttalk over that as if, oh yeah,
then they changed it to alifetime ban.
But that's huge, isn't it thatwhat did happen there, were you
almost pushing on an open doorwhen you went to see them?
Is it something they'dconsidered?
Had it been something they knewwasn't right?

(17:41):
That it was this five-year ban,I think?

Mhairi Maclennan (17:45):
a bit of, probably lots of factors and
obviously I'll never know all ofthe factors because they don't
work there.
But, as with all of this work,we're standing on the shoulders
of the women that have comebefore us and have trailblazed
to be able to even have a placeat the table.
And I know that the athlete whohad started Signpost for Safety

(18:06):
or Signpost to Safety, ratherhad made a lot of inroads and
she'd had an awfully difficulttime trying to get and secure
meetings.
And we've spoken to people whothey'll say, oh, I'm meeting
with so-and-so and I'm like,well, good luck, we had a really
hard time there and then theyhave a fine time, and so each

(18:28):
and every one of us are makingit slightly easier for those
that come after us.
But I think the door wasperhaps ajar.
The female CEO, joanna Coates,who was in position at the time,
was really passionate aboutsafeguarding and safe sports.
She'd done a lot in herprevious position at volleyball,
I think yeah, so I think thedoor was slightly ajar.
I also think that there had beena lot of negligence on this

(18:50):
case previously.
I remember myself, when I firstjoined the group in 2013, that
my coach explained that he usedto take girls back to his house
to massage them, but then twogirls tried to ruin his life and
so now he could only do it atthe track venue and obviously
he'd already built trust and abit of a relationship with me.

(19:12):
So I thought, oh, that's awful,why would those two girls do
that?
But yeah, they obviouslyreported him and I just didn't.
I wasn't aware, and that's partof you know.
What we do now is like knowingthe signs of abuse and knowing
the boundaries that you shouldand shouldn't have with a coach,
like your coach shouldn't beyour masseuse at all or touching

(19:35):
you anywhere, really, unlessit's a sport that requires
physical adjustments, and therethey should be asking for
consent.
So you know, if I'd known that,I would have been like, oh
right, maybe I'm going to find adifferent coach, but instead
that's not what happened.
And so I think, yeah, in partpeople prior to us trying to
make change, in part themknowing that this case really

(19:56):
needed to be acted on, and manypeople had reported prior to us.
You know I had left thetraining group because two
coaches had reported him a yearbefore we came forward, so we
were the last in a long line ofreports that had just not been
acted on or, you know,investigated properly.
And I again, we can onlyspeculate why.

(20:18):
Perhaps you know the theevidence wasn't strong enough,
perhaps they didn't um seeenough, or perhaps the capacity
and resource wasn't right, orperhaps they were protecting
their own reputation.
There's a whole plethora ofreasons why that might not have
been acted on.
But, yeah, I think that's whywe were listened to.

Sue Anstiss (20:38):
I hope and on your website you share some pretty
bleak statistics around thenumber of girls that have
suffered sexual abuse in asporting environment during
childhood.
I think globally like one infive women and girls, and
clearly reporting abuse is oneof the hardest things a woman
might ever need to do.
So how much does that reportingsystem and the response to it

(21:01):
vary across sports today?

Mhairi Maclennan (21:09):
Quite a lot, a lot, I mean we.
So we've recently been doingsome work with Scottish
universities actually aroundtheir reporting systems, and it
is complicated because sportsunions or associations often sit
separate to universities butmassive, massive varying
procedures and policies.
You know, some universitieswill have coaching code of
conduct, some won't, and samewith sports.

(21:29):
And I think the sports withmore money generally will have
slightly better processes andpolicies because they've got
better resources to spend timecreating them and they're not
just putting out fires all thetime.
But that's the problem, or it'sa big part of the problem is
that there's no consistency insport across.
There's minimum standardsbefore anybody holds me up which

(21:52):
are the safeguarding assurances, and they are in place, but
they're pretty rudimentary, youknow like.
One of them is have asafeguarding policy and you can
download those from the internet.
I think a lot of the problem isthat overall there's a lack of
like, care, um and humanitywithin these systems and these

(22:12):
processes.
So most governing bodies aregoing to have a process in place
and a policy in place andthey'll never turn around and
say that they don't have one.
But the problem is, you know,nine times out of ten there's
something in their policy thatthey actually never uphold, or
they'll say that a particularprocess is going to happen and
that's not at all what happens.

(22:33):
Some of that is just because ofresource and demand, but some of
that is because of negligence,and I think I recognize the
difficulty that nationalgoverning bodies have when their
purse strings are beingtightened and staff are
overworked and actually oftensafeguarding and the
responsibility for it does restjust with the safeguarding team.

(22:54):
That needs to change, becauseyou know, we'll come in as an
organization representing anathlete that's come through our
support service and it's thesafeguarding team we email and
we're like you guys have failedon this and they feel like
that's a personal attack becausethe whole responsibility of
this just sits with them andnobody else in the organization

(23:15):
is taking a concerned role andthat's a problem.
But yeah, fundamentally there'sno, there's no follow-through,
there's no care and there's nohumanity with these things,
because national governingbodies see a report as a problem
and a threat to theirreputation rather than seeing it
as a learning opportunity andan opportunity to build trust

(23:36):
with their sports community.

Sue Anstiss (23:38):
And how have they responded?
So I know it's a bit of ageneral all national governing
bodies, but how have you foundthey've responded to your
existence and the work thatyou're doing in this space?

Mhairi Maclennan (23:47):
Really, varied , which is why it's hard to
answer in general.
We've got some really proactivenational governing bodies that
you know will reach out to usand want to speak with us.
You know, when we firstlaunched, scottish Touch Rugby
was one of the first governingbodies that got in touch and
really, really wanted our help.
Others have been pretty hostileKate and I have been called

(24:08):
naive, incompetent and, yeah,plenty of other names and that's
because, you know, yeah, Ithink that the space is filled
with a particular type of, witha particular type of people or

(24:31):
attitude, and we might thinkthat we've cracked it.
So, like often and this is notto say that there aren't amazing
people who have these types ofexperiences but like work
experience but I think that toassume that everybody who's had
those work experiences isamazing is is dangerous, because
we're all different.
But there's a real tendency tohire ex-police officers.
Now, you know as well as I do,there's lots of different roles

(24:52):
within the police and justbecause you've been in the
police force doesn't mean thatyou're going to have the
expertise or experience to dealwith a traumatized individual.
We spoke with one safeguardingofficer who quite openly boasted
that they had been on murderinvestigation teams.
Now they might have the rightexperience, but that in and of

(25:14):
itself doesn't tell me anything.
In fact, it's a red flagbecause it's a bit like well, if
you're used to yourcomplainants being dead, the
fact that they're alive isalready a huge win.
So, to have the level ofempathy that is required when
you're dealing with people whoare going through really
traumatic things, I'm not surethat you're going to be the best

(25:38):
equipped.
So, yeah, I don't want to sitand cast judgments about what is
the best work experience tohave had to best equip you for
the role, but I think, yeah,there's just a lack of
consistency and I don't thinkthat we're, I just don't think
we've got it right.
There's loads of amazing workhappening, but it's really

(25:59):
siloed and inconsistent acrossthe board.

Sue Anstiss (26:02):
And you talk about that.
I guess that inconsistency.
There's no independent body inthe UK at the moment is there to
review the big cases of abuseright now, so some might say it
can be a case of sort of sport.
Marking its own homework is aphrase I've heard used when it
comes to those abuse cases.
Why is that?
And almost like from anoutsider's point of view, it's
like why does that not exist?

Mhairi Maclennan (26:26):
Yeah, there's a real reluctance to bring in an
independent body.
We're actually doing a piece ofwork with uk sport around um,
like it's called the uk safesport project, and it's looking
exactly at how do we, what isthe answer?
How do we fix this quite brokenfunction within our sporting
world?
And a lot of people are nervousabout an independent body
because they feel that it takesthe onus and responsibility

(26:49):
completely off nationalgoverning bodies to too far an
extent, which would leave, Iguess, people vulnerable to not
knowing where to go.
Because I think the reality is,if you are in a remote or even
rural club of which there are alot in the UK because we have a
lot of rural areas you're morelikely to know the name of your

(27:10):
national governing body than youare of an independent body.
So it's the dissemination ofinformation that's difficult.
But an independent body alsoneeds to be a standard setter,
like it can't just be a casemanagement system whereby the
really serious cases arereferred to them and they deal
with them, and that's it.
They need to like be settingwhat policies people need to

(27:30):
have in place.
They need to be writing thosepolicies.
They need to be probably aneducation provider as well, and,
if not themselves providing theeducation, at least outsourcing
and then ensuring that thateducation is rolled out to
everybody, because everybodyshould have the same level of
education.
Because, as it stands, yes,sports are marking their own
homework and your safetyenjoyment experience of sport

(27:55):
depends on your postcode and thesport that, nine times out of
ten, you fall into or yourparents take you to as a kid,
and that's just like.
It's just not where we need orwant to be.
And so, yeah, there needs to bean independent body, but what
that looks like and what it'scalled is going to get people's
backs up.
And who pays for it?

(28:16):
I guess as well, how do youensure it's independent?
So, what does independence meanand what does that look like?
So, is it that it's agovernment body?
Is that independent?
If it's a government body, isit that the sports councils?
Do we stretch their capacityand build another function into
what they already do?
That would probably requirelegislation, and governments

(28:38):
really don't want to legislateon this because they don't
recognise how big of an issue itis, because it's just sport,
right?
So what does it matter?
And who's going to work there?
So, like, how do we employ theright people.
There's a recognition that wedon't necessarily have the right
people in these roles.
Where's the money going to comefrom, like you said, you know,

(28:58):
and and how do we find thatmoney?
And how much do we pay thepeople that are in these roles?
And I think when you starttalking about an independent
body, these are the questionspeople automatically jump to,
rather than what's thefunctionality of it and how does
it work and fit into anexisting system where there are
already some independent bodies,so, like football already has

(29:21):
an independent body.
And how much of sport does itcover?
Because at the moment, the waysports funded in the uk is elite
sport is funded by uk sport andthen the rest is funded by the
other sports councils.
And how do we get the sportscouncils to work together to
figure out the solution?
And I think that's yeah, it'sno, uh, no mean feat, the task

(29:43):
that we're trying to undertake,to kind of figure out what, what
this looks like and how wemight implement it.
But yeah, like when we go to, ifwe have an athlete that comes
to us, which this is basicallyall we do and they say I've had
an investigation, I'm notsatisfied, I've been totally
re-traumatized by this process.

(30:04):
I feel like shit, I don't trustthe sport.
They've ruined my life.
We do a subject access request,we read it.
It's awful.
We go to the sport and they say, yeah, we've reviewed this with
our internal safeguarding paneland everything was done to plan
.
It's like, well, yeah, ofcourse it was done to plan.
If you're checking withyourselves, you know if I want

(30:24):
to give myself 10 out of 10 forsomething, I'm going to do it.
So it's really hard to createtrue independence and at the
moment, yeah, it's a totallybroken system difference between
legislation and policy and agovernment maybe not wanting to

(30:45):
legislate.

Sue Anstiss (30:46):
In the UK, we have positions of trust legislation,
which is there to protect youngchildren and young people and
children from abuse by adults inpositions of power of influence
, and I know there were somechanges made to that this year,
I think, which closed a loopholethat existed in sport for
people aged 16 to 18.
So can you tell us a bit moreabout that and what also still
needs to change in that space?

Mhairi Maclennan (31:06):
yeah, so, um, thank you, tana gray johnson,
for this legislation amazing, um, yeah, so, basically, the
positions of trust legislationnow means that, uh, the word
coach, or somebody who occupiesa coach title position, falls
into somebody who has a positionof trust, and all that means is
that they've got a kind of dutyof care over others and the

(31:31):
loophole that they've closed isthat it's now illegal to have a
relationship with somebodybetween the ages of 16 and 18 if
you're in a position of trust,which is amazing.
I've had conversations withTanya about this legislation and
she's herself frustrated thatwe weren't able to kind of make
it historic.
So if people within a certaintime period you know, let's open

(31:55):
it up to the last five yearsthey can also retroactively
apply the law, and we've dealtwith and spoken with many
athletes who would have falleninto that category and I think
the principal reason that theydidn't backtrack, backdate it is
because they would knew they'dbe inundated.
But it's a huge step forward interms of like a actionable

(32:17):
piece of legislation thatprovides protection and
hopefully acts as a deterrent aswell against something that
should have been happeninganyway.
But, yeah, the position oftrust legislation is great.
I'd love to see it extendedparticularly.
You know, 16 to 18.
Yes, absolutely no brainer, butwe know that your frontal

(32:38):
cortex doesn't stop developinguntil you're around 25.
And I don't see why weshouldn't be using that as an
argument to try and extend it.
I think the other thing that weneed to recognise, particularly
in the UK, is that universityage and I'm obviously passionate
about it because I was 18 whenthe abuse started and I didn't

(32:59):
consider myself vulnerable atthe time.
But I look back and I didn'tknow anything and I think
there's lots of factors that canimpact people's naivety levels,
I suppose.
But by and large, people in theUK in swathes, leave home at
age 18 to go to higher educationinstitutions, whether that's
college or university.

(33:20):
You're away from your parents,you're away from your family,
away from your friends, soyou're away from your parents,
you're away from your family,away from your friends, so
you're away from anybody thatknows and recognizes your
behavior.
And so much of what we doaround educating people in safe
sport is around behavior changes.
So recognizing that somebodymight be on, might be
experiencing abuse is aboutchanges in their behavior.

(33:41):
So whether it's changes intheir psychological behavior or
their physical behavior, but ifyou're around people that you
don't know how are they supposedto spot any changes.
They just assume that's whatyou're like, and that was the
case for me and the amount ofconversations I've had with
people that knew me then andmeet me now, it's actually

(34:03):
really chilling and I find thatone of the worst things about
kind of being where I am now isis the person I thought I was
when I was at university is sonot the person I was, because
people have said things like ohgod, yeah, you're just so fun.
Like I don't remember you likethis at uni.
I remember you being reallylike introverted or you know you

(34:25):
were just seemed angry at theworld.
You know you seemed reallyuptight.
These kind of words.
And these are people, obviously, that I'm like very happy for
them to kind of have these frankconversations with me.
But it's hard to hear because Iremember feeling like that and
being like that and nobody couldspot it, because these people
just thought, god, she's a bitof a nightmare, like I don't

(34:47):
really want to spend much timearound her, don't blame them,
but that's, you know, a hugeloophole.
That then, if the positions oftrust legislation doesn't cover
older than that, it fuels thisassumption that the second you
turn 18, you're completelycognizant of everything
everybody around you is doing.

(35:08):
You won't get manipulated, youcan't be abused, and it's really
dangerous because anybody canget abused, like smart people,
old people, young people,beautiful people, average
looking people.
It doesn't matter who you are,you're not like exempt because
of any characteristics that youhave, and so, yeah, I'd love to

(35:30):
see the position of trustlegislation extended just to
protect particularly that agegroup of that kind of moving to
university or college and beingaway from family and isolated,
because isolation is how abusersget people, and if we've
already done that work for themby being isolated in the first
place, it's so much easier andat university.

Sue Anstiss (35:53):
So a professor couldn't have a relationship
with a student.
That's covered by legislation,isn't it?

Mhairi Maclennan (35:58):
in terms of that position of power, no, it
is yeah, I think I don't know ifI actually would need to check.
I don't know that a professoris listed as a position of trust
it sounds like a no brainer andthat it should be.
But I don't specialise ineducation policy.
I would be surprised if that'sallowed, but it might be.
I know when I was at universitythere were always rumours of,

(36:20):
oh yeah, that professor sleepswith students, kind of thing.
Um, but yeah, I think it's thekind of thing that you can lose
your job over for sure yeah,absolutely.

Sue Anstiss (36:29):
You've talked a bit about athletes coming to you
and I know you're working withUK Athletics now to provide an
athlete support service, givingemotional and practical support
for athletes going through thatreporting process.
So is that the majority of yourwork right now?
Is that a lot of?
I know that's not actually thecase, because I'm there's a
whole ream of other thingsyou're, so is that the majority
of your work right now?
Is that a lot of work?
I know that's not actually thecase, because there's a whole
ream of other things you'redoing, but is that the kind of

(36:49):
core of the work that youdeliver?

Mhairi Maclennan (36:52):
Probably not the core.
No, it's probably the thing Ithink is the most important or
it feels the most important whenyou're doing it, but it's not
the core of our work.
No, but yeah, the supportservice kind of was born
organically.
It was never something thatKate nor I envisaged or planned
to do, and certainly notsomething that either of us had
training for when it first.
When we first started kind ofdoing this out of necessity I

(37:16):
think, because Kate had beenpublic about the struggles she
had faced, I had obviously beenpublic in way of anonymity.
And then we launched Kineska.
Naturally people reached out tous if they were struggling and
it kind of got to the pointwhere maybe initially it was
people we knew and so I was veryhappy to give advice as a kind

(37:41):
of friend or known person.
But quite quickly it becamepeople that we didn't know and
they'd be like oh well, do youmind?
Actually also my friendsstruggled with this, do you mind
speaking with them?
And that was when I realised,okay, we need to formalise this
and we need to like not to soundlike a national governing body,
but I need to protect ourselvesbecause I don't want to give
wrong advice.
I wasn't trained to give adviceon this kind of in that
capacity at all.

(38:06):
So two years ago now weformalized the support service
and we've kind of built it outso that, yes, it's a bridge of
communication between athletesand their sports governing
bodies.
We try to kind of take a bit ofa bespoke approach whereby
somebody comes through our doors, our metaphorical doors, we
have a discovery call to try andunderstand the kind of
oversight of what's happened.
What is it that they're lookingfor in terms of support?

(38:28):
Athletes don't always know that, and that's okay.
And what can we realisticallyand feasibly do or expect from
this like, I guess, relationshipthat we try to build with them?
And we've got a pro bono legalteam that help us if they need
specific legal advice and wepass them on there.
We've got a team well-being andperformance ecologist.

(38:51):
So for the, I can kind of doemotional support, but I can't
do any psychological support.
I'm not a therapist and I'm nota counsellor, so we would pass
them on to Natasha should theyneed anything more specific and
robust.
And yeah, we've managed to getthings.
Like you know, we've hadwritten apologies from sports.

(39:13):
We've managed to get sports wholike teams who recognize okay,
we actually probably need to dosome training.
So we've come in and deliveredsome training on how to create
healthy and supportive trainingenvironments.
We have had re-investigationsor investigations where there
wasn't one.
So, yeah, we've also had loadsof disappointments.
You know, we've also had likejust no progress and sports that

(39:35):
just keep saying that they'vereviewed it and they've done
everything they can.
And those are the really hardcases because obviously it's
horrible disappointing theathlete.
But I also feel reallypersonally like I'm
disappointing a younger me andlike I'm being failed by the
system again.
So long term, I'd love toprobably think it's good for my

(39:55):
mental health to remove myselffrom the support service
somewhat and, you know,diversify the number of people
and voices that are supportingathletes and you recently
published a superb manifesto forthe future of safe sport and I
would absolutely recommendpeople read it and I'll add a
link to the show notes as welltoo.

Sue Anstiss (40:14):
And I think one of the things that really shocked
me and I obviously I've been inthe world of sport for many,
many years, so I kind of feel Iknow the sport but there's no
statutory requirement for sportsorganisations to report known
or suspected child sexual orphysical abuse to the local
authority or to the police forindependent assessment, and so
that means that criminalitymight never reach the police,

(40:35):
and I don't know why.
I assumed, of course, thatwould be the case, but do you
think parents of sports areaware of this?
Parents of sporting children?

Mhairi Maclennan (40:45):
you think parents are?
You know of sports?
Are aware of this?
Parents of sporting children?
No, and I think actuallyrecently um, I'm sure it was
simps but did a survey withparents and a lot of spirit
parents actually also thoughtthat sport was independently
regulated in the way that theeducation sector is and they
didn't know that.
So when we talk about, likeeducation required for the
sports sector, parents are ahuge part of that, like for

(41:09):
young children in particular,obviously, like, if parents
don't know, then like where arewe going with this?
Um, so it's not just educatingcoaches and staff, it's also
educating athletes and parentsand, like family members,
support teams or whoever it isthat's kind of around that
athlete.
But yeah, parents don't know alot and that's scary.

(41:32):
We actually deliver a workshopcalled creating healthy sports
environments and we've got aniteration of it that's for
organizations and for kind ofsports governing body leads and
we've also got an iterationthat's for parents and athletes
and I delivered one last week toa local running club here and
it's just, yeah, it's amazinggetting them all in the room and

(41:53):
I usually split the room sothat parents are on one side and
the kind of under 13, under 15girls are on the other side of
the room, principally becausethere's also a bit where we talk
about periods and who wants totalk about that next to your mum
or your dad?
But yeah, the parents want toknow more and we don't that
sports don't take anyresponsibility or role in

(42:13):
educating them on the reality of, like, what policies are in
place in the club?
Like, do you have a socialmedia policy?
Do you have a safeguardingpolicy?
Who's your welfare officer?
And you know, this was a really, really proactive club because
they've this is the second timethey've had me in to do a
session but when I asked theparents and children who the

(42:34):
welfare officer was, nobody knewthe answer like literally not a
single person.
And that's scary because, okay,we're being really proactive in
this club because we're doingeducation which is not happening
like at all or even close to ona wide scale.
So you would think this is areally good club.
I want to send my kids here,but none of nobody knows who the

(42:57):
welfare officer is.
So that's like a missing link.
There's such an easy fix, butif parents don't even know who
the welfare officer is, theycertainly don't know that
there's no statutory requirementto report child sexual abuse
and they certainly don't knowthat there's no independent
regulator.
And I think that sportsometimes rests on its laurels a
bit with that like, oh, we'reunchecked because the education

(43:18):
sector, parents are just goingto assume it's the same.

Sue Anstiss (43:19):
Yeah absolutely, let's say as well.
I've been researching beforetalking to you.
I did lots of researching.
It kind of go down a bit of arabbit warren of watching more,
going to more websites andreading and that whole piece
around what we mean by abuse.
And I think for many peopleafter the white review etc.
We think about sexual abuseoften with you know, athlete a
and those stories.
But actually just that abuse ofathletes in terms of the

(43:43):
bullying and domination and thatkind of the treatment of
athletes is so much broader thanyou know.
That's almost at its extreme.
It's all horrific, isn't it?
But actually when we thinkabout abuse it's a broader yeah,
it's huge.

Mhairi Maclennan (43:58):
There's a huge spectrum and I think you know
sexual abuse is often sits atthe top of the iceberg.
Particularly in these kind ofrelationships where there's a
power imbalance, sexual abuse isusually the last thing that
these abusers get to and beforethat there's been this whole
host of like awful stuff that'shappened.
And when I think about mybehavioral patterns today as an

(44:20):
adult and choices that I make orstruggle to make, it's not
because of the sexual abuse thatI suffered, it's because of
everything else that I wentthrough.
So you know, you're kind ofconditioned and brought up into
being this like massivelycompliant athlete and you're
terrified of stepping out ofturn because you know, like I

(44:41):
have learned that if thathappens, if I do that, if I go
on holiday or if I get ill or ifI get injured, I'm going to get
frozen out and not spoken tofor like weeks on end and just
ignored if I turned up totraining and that might seem
like a small thing, but that hasa massive impact on somebody's
psyche.
So even today, my current coachis the coach I had as a small

(45:05):
child, like when I was in stillliving in Inverness with my
parents, and I actually foundthat that was like the only
coaching relationship I couldmake work, because I'm not
scared of him, like I'm happy totell him anything and I know
that he's safe, but like it wasso hard for me to learn how to
be with another coach becausethey were new and I didn't trust

(45:27):
them ultimately and I was justalways scared of like upsetting
them or and I and and I thinkthat it's not just around
coaches, like that's aroundeverybody.
So my husband tells me againand again like you need to
express what you want and likeyour preferences more strongly,
and I find that really hardbecause I have been conditioned

(45:48):
to not upset a cool my momobviously, yeah, so that I, you
know, don't suffer theconsequences, and so small
things and big things, I justdon't.
I'm not very good at expressingmy boundaries, I'm not very good
at expressing what I want, andthat's not because of the sexual
abuse, that's because of likethe emotional abuse, the

(46:11):
psychological abuse and likephysical abuse, which would fall
into, for clarity, um, anythingthat's happening to your body.
So if a coach is like forcingyou to train through injury, um,
or illness, or also usingtraining as a punishment, so,
like our coach is like forcingyou to train through injury or
illness or also using trainingas a punishment.
So, like our coach would oftensend these like insane training
regimes if you went on holidayand like you knew if you didn't

(46:33):
do them that he wouldn't talk toyou and you wanted him to talk
to you because you thought thatif you talk to him and he values
you, then you're going tosucceed in sport and you want to
succeed in sport.
So, yeah, there's a hugespectrum and I think that's the
bits that's difficult.
Like yesterday I was deliveringan all day in-person workshop
with sports leads inuniversities and there's a full

(46:56):
chapter section that we spentsort of a an hour and a bit on
around spotting signs of abuse.
That's the bit people strugglewith because it's yes, there's
obvious ones, like bruises mightbe physical abuse and like okay
, if someone's got an STI, likemaybe there's sexual abuse going
on, but it's, it's more thanthat.

(47:17):
It's like does somebody becomequite quiet?
Like has somebody becomenervous when they weren't
nervous before?
Like it could just it cantotally change somebody's
personality and that's reallyhard to reverse.

Sue Anstiss (47:33):
And you're doing some work, aren't you, with a
fantastic team at Leeds BeckettUniversity's Centre for Social
Justice in Sport and Societyaround examining those long-term
impacts of coachingmaltreatment in female athletes.
I guess a little bit about whyyou've almost explained why you
are undertaking that, but whatdo you hope will be the results
of what comes from that?

Mhairi Maclennan (47:55):
So I'm not leading this piece of work.
It's actually Kate that'sleading it because her expertise
just much better fit that pieceof work.
But I guess I don't know thatwe've got hopes necessarily for
the results.
But I think what we want toshow is that impacts from abuse
in sport are long lasting and Ithink it would be good if you

(48:20):
can even use that word but to beable to show that the impacts
are really varied, you know, allthe way from really struggling
to stay in employment to, youknow, struggling to maintain
relationships or beingmistrusting in relationships,
things like the things that I'veexperienced.
But having data to back it upand I think we have some of that

(48:41):
data when we look at kind ofstudies around domestic abuse
and they're like really powerfulto be able to say to the
government inaction on thiscosts you x amount every year.
We don't have statistics likethat and I think for a long time
, perhaps for too long, we'vebeen kind of trying to rest on
the moral argument with sportsthat they need to change this

(49:02):
because it's the right thing todo, because human rights are in
law, so they need to prioritizehuman rights.
But ultimately sports arebusinesses and they need money
to run.
So unless you are going toconvince them that investing in
safeguarding is going to makethem more money, it's going to
be really difficult for them toactually make that choice, even
if, morally, they're bought in.

(49:22):
So I guess we're trying to doresearch so that we can use it
as a lobbying tool to try andcreate more change that's backed
by data and evidence.
And, yeah, hopefully we getthere, because it's yeah, it's,
it's a hard argument to make andI think that it's more
pertinent than ever now because,with the growth and surge in

(49:48):
women's sports and thevisibility of women's sports,
which is amazing, behind thatboom is potentially neglect
towards the well-being andwelfare of those women athletes
that are being catapulted ontothe stage.
And I, yeah, I went to aconference where they were
talking about how to capitalizeon this growth of women's sports

(50:12):
and they kept calling it theproduct, the product, and I was
thinking fucking hell, likepardon my French but these are
people we're talking about.
They're not products.
That's, this is not.
We're not commodities.
And if you're shoving loads ofgames, fixtures into a season
because you want loads ofmatches to be on tv, because you
want to capitalize on revenue,those are people that are having

(50:35):
to perform those matches andtheir well-being is not being
prioritized at all.
So I feel like the well-beingdiscussion is like even more
pertinent now, as we see thislike kind of boost in women's
sports and trying to maximizethe visibility of women's sports
, which is a really importantthing to do so that we can get
on equal footing.
But can we do it in asustainable way?

Sue Anstiss (50:57):
I almost feel like there's so many.
I'm conscious of your time, butthere's so many other things I
want to.
I just want to ask a little bitabout coaches, because I
believe if a coach is banned ina sport right now, they could
still go on and coach in adifferent sport.
It's not a no central register.
I feel like I'm just sharingall the bad news, but it is
pretty shocking, isn't it?
But no central register existsat the moment for coaches.

(51:19):
Is that different anywhere elsein the world?
Or is that just weird in the UK?
Because that just feels likemadness, doesn't it?

Mhairi Maclennan (51:27):
It is madness.
Yeah, it's insane.
So in Canada they do have aregister, so you've got to have
a login to access the registerand you've got to know the
register exists.
So it's not necessarily likewidely publicized that it exists
, but it is there.
But, yeah, that's correct.
In the UK there's no register.
There is a pilot work going onto create a workforce register,

(51:50):
but the last I heard is thatthey won't be putting bans on it
, so it doesn't really serve thepurpose that it needs to.
Because, yeah, I think this isthe problem with sports bans
right that, like sports, canonly act within their
jurisdiction, so a ban is onlyas good as the respect that the

(52:13):
person who's banned has for thatorganization.
There's nothing written in lawto enforce the ban or uphold it,
and so if you had somebody whojust completely disrespects the
ban, they can keep practicing insport and they could keep
coaching, and the most thegoverning body can do is like

(52:34):
keep sending letters to them andtelling them to not do it.
But there's literally nothingenforceable.
And if people don't choose togo to the police or if it
doesn't meet the threshold forcriminal proceedings, then
that's where it ends and the banis only applicable in that
sport.
So it's not like you get asport-wide ban.

(52:57):
So this happens all the time,where coaches will get banned
from one sport and they go toanother, particularly sports
where it's potentially quiteeasy to like switch those skills
, that skill set, to coach adifferent sport.
So, like an individualendurance sport, you know, if
you're a running coach, you canprobably be a triathlon coach.
If you're a running coach, youcan probably be a triathlon
coach.
If you're a triathlon coach,you can definitely coach
swimming, biking or running, andso you see a lot of switching

(53:19):
there.
But also, if you've alreadylearned how to coach, it's not
that difficult to learn how tocoach a different sport.
If you really want to, it'sdefinitely something that you
can do.
So, yeah, a register would gosome way to stopping that from
happening.
But it also like it does needto be a global register really
long term, because we've alsogot loads of cases of coaches

(53:40):
changing country and going andcoaching in another country and
these are people that likethey're really dangerous.
These are people and I thinkthat's what we underestimate
Like if you're going to theeffort of changing countries so
you can continue to coach,that's because you want to
continue to abuse.
Otherwise you'd find anotherjob uprooting yourself so that
you can continue to be in aposition of power like that.
That's, that's not a safeperson to have a position of

(54:03):
trust with at all.
So, yeah, the coach, a coachlicense register scheme would be
great, and I think that it canalso be something that plays to
the advantage of coaches whohaven't done anything wrong as
well, because you could use itas okay well, you know, I've had
to look for a coach before.
I could go onto this databaseand I could filter it by region.

(54:25):
I could say I want a coach whospecializes in marathon training
and who's got expertise infemale athlete health, and then
you could find a great coach andlike, actually, it becomes kind
of like a LinkedIn for coaches,like it could be something
that's like a really useful toolas well as keeping sport safe,
I feel like it's not been apositively uplifting

(54:47):
conversation, but in terms ofhope for the future, I guess the
changes that we are seeing andyou know you're doing some
incredible you, you and Katesome incredible work in this
space.

Sue Anstiss (54:56):
so how helpful are you that we are shifting and
moving it kind of each timethere's a policy change and
legislation and so on?

Mhairi Maclennan (55:04):
um, some days I feel more hopeful than others,
but we are seeing a difference,like, I think, when I'm feeling
really downtrodden, you've gotto step back and I do think
you've got to look back as faras five years, maybe 10.
But when you do that, there's ahuge difference.
You know, like, okay, when yougo, when you come forward, you

(55:27):
might have a horrible experience, but at least you're coming
forward, and that might soundpiecemeal and like it's just not
good enough.
I agree, it's totally not goodenough, but there is change
happening and it is slow and toan extent we do want, need we
need this change to be slow,because cultural change that
really works is slow.
We can't just changeeverybody's ideologies and

(55:49):
psyche overnight.
I wish, but we't, maybe.
Today I'm feeling hopeful, otherdays I feel less hopeful and
like working in this space isincredibly exhausting and it's
really draining.
And I know that Kate and I havedefinitely sometimes looked at
each other like why have we donethis?
Like we could have had nicelives.
You know where we're not facedwith trauma every day, and you

(56:11):
know, yesterday was one of thosedays.
Those days, actually, I had hada really positive workshop all
day with these sports leads atuniversities and everybody
seemed really engaged and I wasjust like, oh, that's brilliant.
And then I got a call from ajournalist asking for us to
comment on Stuart Hogg and hiscourt case of domestic abuse and
I was just like fuck's sake,like what a shit way to end the

(56:33):
day.
And that is kind of what thisspace feels like.
For every good news piece itfeels like there's 10 bad news
pieces and it's very easy to getreally downhearted, but must
keep the hope alive who looksafter you?

Sue Anstiss (56:47):
how do you make sure you're you and kate are um?

Mhairi Maclennan (56:51):
probably not very good at that.
I'd, yeah, my Louis, my husband, is great and in fact without
him I probably wouldn't haveeven come forward, um, because
he was so supportive.
But yeah, I think both Kate andI are really guilty of just not
looking after our ownwell-being, um, because we
always put other people's beforeour own.

(57:11):
But I think we're kind ofgetting to a place in our team
where you know there's there'sseven of us now and there's four
of us in a sort of, yeah,management type position, but
not really because you knowwe're very non-hierarchical but
we're very good at being likeyou look like shit, you need to
take the day off, or like youneed a break.

(57:31):
You've been doing too much.
You know, like last night,where actually the journalist
had asked for a comment by thatevening, I didn't write it, even
though it was the request hadcome to me.
I just said, guys, I need to goto bed and they were like go to
sleep, I'll do it.
So yeah, it's a learning curve.

Sue Anstiss (57:48):
And the work you're doing is so, so important.
So how have you been funded?
And and is kind of futureinvestment where does that money
come from to enable you to dothe incredible work you're doing
?

Mhairi Maclennan (57:59):
um, from the projects that we've delivered so
at the moment.
So I've literally just gonefull-time at Kineska, um, as of
like coming back from myhoneymoon last week, um, but we
I we always said that I would gofull-time when we had like a
year and a half to two yearsrunway, and we've been able to

(58:19):
do that because people havetrusted us to deliver work for
them and also because I gotshouted at to stop accepting
work for free.
That was also a learning curve,uh.
But yeah, we're now in a placewhere we've got enough kind of
projects in the pipeline, havedone enough that I can be paid,
but yeah, we've not got any kindof formal funding.

(58:40):
We're only just starting toapply for grants.
I think Kate and I, when wefirst launched, we were just so
focused on trying to get somechange and like making sport a
better place that we sort offorgot that we would need money
to do it if we wanted to do itin a more full-time capacity.

Sue Anstiss (58:54):
So, yeah, fingers crossed for a couple of grant
applications that we've sent outand yeah that the projects
continue coming in and, inclosing, if you could ask one
thing of listeners of thispodcast or people working in
sport what can we all do to helpmake sport a safer place?
Great, question.

Mhairi Maclennan (59:15):
I mean, I think there's an awareness piece
.
So I think part of it comesfrom my background as an
education and I was a teacherbefore this.
So I think that if everybodyhas an awareness then
collectively we'll be better atspotting these patterns of
behaviour and less tolerant ofthem.
Sport doesn't exist in a bubbleor a microcosm, so it is.

(59:39):
This is a societal problem.
Um, you know it's, it's aboutculture, it's not a political
thing.
So I think I think, like sharingliking, like any kind of
organizations like the Army ofSurvivors, sport and Recreation
Alliance, like ourselves,sharing work that we're doing,
following us, liking our staff,I think can create a kind of

(01:00:02):
collective awareness in thesports psyche.
But you know, going and findingout who your welfare officer is
and telling your club that thewelfare officer doesn't just
need to be there and exist butalso needs to be visible, so
small things like when a newmember joins the sports club,
reintroducing all of the keymembers of the committee,

(01:00:23):
including the welfare officer,making sure that there's a
social media policy in place foronline harm, that there's a
safeguarding policy in place.
I think it's like doing checksat your local level, because
that's what we can influence inour immediate sphere.
But I also don't want to likeput too much on the individual
because ultimately the bigorganisations need to change the

(01:00:46):
way they're doing things.
But we do all have a role and Ithink it's.
You can overcomplicate it untilthe cows come home, but
ultimately it's like be nice andtreat people with respect and
humanity and humility.

Sue Anstiss (01:01:01):
Don't be a dick goodness, what a privilege it
was to talk to Mari and to hearabout the incredible work she
and the team at Kineska Advocacyare doing.
If you'd like to hear from moretrailblazers like Mari, there
are over 200 episodes of theGame Changers that are free to

(01:01:23):
listen to on all podcastplatforms or from our website at
fearlesswomencouk.
Along with trailblazers andentrepreneurs like marie, you
can also hear from eliteathletes, coaches, broadcasters,
scientists, journalists andceos all women who are changing
the game in sport.

(01:01:43):
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
can also find out more about thewomen's sport collective, a
free, inclusive community forall women working in sport.
We now have over eight and ahalf thousand members across the
world, so please do come andjoin us.
The whole of my book Game On theUnstoppable Rise of Women's

(01:02:05):
Sport is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Every episode of series 13 isme reading a chapter of the book
.
Thank you once again to sportengland for backing the game
changers and the women's sportcollective through a national
lottery award, and also to samwalker, who does such a
brilliant job as our executiveproducer.

(01:02:26):
Thank you also to my lovelycolleague at fearless women,
kate hannon.
You can find the game changerson all podcast platforms, so
please do follow us now and youwon't miss out on future
episodes.
Do come and say hello on socialmedia, where you'll find me at
sue anstis, the game changersfearless women in sport.