August 12, 2025 • 43 mins
"Missing Olympic selection again broke me, but it reminded me I'm more than a rugby player."
Today on The Game Changers podcast it's our absolute joy to talk to Scottish rugby star Rhona Lloyd, who shares her remarkable journey from a young girl defying stereotypes to becoming one of Scotland’s fastest and most dynamic players.
With 57 caps and 25 tries for her country, Rhona’s story is one of resilience, self-discovery and redefining what it means to be strong. Having returned from four years playing in France, Rhona is about to represent Scotland in the Women's Rugby World Cup, before she joins Sale Sharks Rugby Club to play in Premiership Women's Rugby.
In this powerful and deeply personal conversation, we explore:
-- The heartbreak of missing out on Olympic selection – twice
-- How Rhona has built strength and identity beyond the pitch
-- The real highs and lows of life as a professional female athlete
-- The remarkable bond within the Scottish women’s team
-- Helping girls build body confidence through sport
Rhona speaks with raw honesty about career setbacks and personal trauma faced by the national team, and how those moments have shaped her as both a player and a person.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sue Anstiss (00:04):
Hello and welcome to The Game Changers.
I'm Sue Anstiss, and this isthe podcast where you'll hear
from trailblazing women in sportwho are knocking down barriers
and challenging the status quofor women and girls everywhere.
What can we learn from theirjourneys as we explore key
issues around equality in sportand beyond?
I'd like to start with a bigthank you to our partners, Sport
(00:24):
England, who support the GameChangers podcast with a National
Lottery Award.
My guest today is Rhona Lloyd, aScottish international rugby
star known for her blisteringpace, try scoring flair and her
powerful presence both on andoff the pitch.
Rhona made her debut forScotland in 2016 and has scored
(00:48):
25 tries for her country in 57caps, playing in the Rugby World
Cup in 2022 and shining at clublevel both in the UK and in
France.
Rhona returns to the UK thisseason to play once again in the
PWR Premiership Women's RugbyOff the field.
(01:13):
Rhona's been a co-host of thepodcast Women who Sport and is a
vocal advocate for bodyconfidence and mental well-being
in elite sport, using herplatform to inspire young female
athletes to value strength,resilience and self-worth.
So, Rhona, life's changed quitea bit for you over the past
couple of years, so can youstart by telling us where you're
currently living and whereyou'll be playing professionally
(01:34):
in 2026, 25 and 6?
.
Rhona Lloyd (01:37):
Yes, absolutely.
So I'm actually back at myparents' house this summer.
I think I've moved out aboutthree times and every time I end
up coming back just when theythink that they're rid of me.
And but no, I have been.
I was playing in Bordeaux, sothat has been my team for the
past couple years.
But I'm moving to Sale Sharksnext summer.
So I think, with the it being ahome world cup in England, I
(01:58):
think the, the PWR after thatworld cup, I think it's going to
explode and it just seemed likethe right time to try and get
myself back in there.
So, yeah, really lookingforward actually to living in
Manchester and seeing what salehas to offer.
Sue Anstiss (02:09):
Excellent.
How does it feel to be backthere, having been in France
Because there's not that manyBritish women that go to play in
France it still feels like it'ssomething a little bit rarer.
Rhona Lloyd (02:19):
Yeah definitely, and I think when I first went
over I went over fromLoughborough Lightning four
years ago I didn't think thatthere was much difference
between the French League andthe English League, whereas I
think kind of credit to the RFUthe English League has just
absolutely exploded in the pastcouple of years and it's such an
exciting league now anddefinitely one that I want to
play in.
So it was kind of that thatmotivated the switch back and it
(02:41):
felt like the right time for achange, although I did love my
four years in Bordeaux.
But yeah, I just kind of feltlike it's it's the time for a
change.
And when I spoke to Sail I justgot such a good impression and
Katie Daly-Nuclea and I used toplay with at Loughborough she's
their director of rugby there,so yeah, that was a big
motivator for the move as well.
Sue Anstiss (02:58):
I can't believe it's been four years.
Like I knew you went, I wouldprobably have said it was two.
That seems to have gone reallyquickly, your four years.
Rhona Lloyd (03:06):
No, I agree, yeah, I absolutely agree, but I think
anybody that has the opportunityto play abroad, in whatever
sport, I would say take it withtwo hands.
It's such an amazing experienceand I think, even off pitch,
being the person that doesn'tspeak the language, that's not
something we get as Englishspeakers a lot and yeah, we're
just challenged in so many, inso many ways.
(03:26):
So it was amazing, do you?
Sue Anstiss (03:27):
think it's changed how you will welcome overseas
players in the PWR.
Rhona Lloyd (03:31):
Massively.
I think that was I remember myfirst year there, especially
when I couldn't speak thelanguage and like people would
invite me out for a coffee and Iwould be so touched by it, I
just to kind of feel included inthe team and it really made me
reflect, me reflect on that I'mgoing to be a better teammate in
the future for having beenthrough that experience, because
it's so hard and I think whenyou speak English it's probably
(03:52):
an experience that we take a bitfor granted that everybody
speaks your language, and thatwas kind of what I anticipated
going over there and, yeah, itdefinitely wasn't the case.
Sue Anstiss (04:01):
But yeah, I think, exactly as you've said, I'll
definitely if, yeah, foreignplayers are coming over to the
PWR, definitely try and be abetter teammate for them though,
and you've talked positivelyabout where the PWR is, as you
say that it's kind of reallyevolved in these last few years,
but what were the biggestdifferences you saw in France in
terms of that environmentaround the female game To be?
Rhona Lloyd (04:20):
honest, in France the like, the fan base, is
amazing.
I was in the southwest ofFrance and you're bored to lose
derbies.
It was absolutely huge.
People were mad for rugby there, which it was so exciting to
live and breathe.
But I think what the PWR does sowell is that kind of the media
side of the game.
All the games are streamed nowand good quality streams.
(04:42):
So then World Rugby arereposting the tries, whereas the
French game a lot of the timethere's not a stream or video
footage.
It's one person with a camera,it's not good quality footage.
So then World Rugby aren'tresharing it.
You might have to do some ofthe best players in the world in
that league.
So yeah, I think that'sdefinitely somewhere that the
PWR is invested and it's reallypaid off.
And in France there was oneweek we played against we were
(05:05):
in front of 13,000, playing awayto Clermont, and then the next
week we played Lyon away.
We were on these back pitches.
There was honestly like maybe12 people there.
It's just the inconsistency,whereas I think the PWR now kind
of week in, week out, it is aprofessional setup, which is why
I think we all say it's thebest league in the world.
Sue Anstiss (05:23):
And it's interesting, isn't it?
I think from the outside wethink it's always those massive
crowds in France, like at everygame, so I think that maybe
that's a misperception thatwe've got too.
Do you feel it's reallypositively impacted your playing
?
Has it changed your playingstyle or your mentality, your
approach to playing out there?
Rhona Lloyd (05:40):
Yeah, I think definitely.
They play such an excitingbrand of rugby, which we see
with the French national team aswell.
They're so attacking, they'reso brave in the way that they
attack.
And, yeah, they don't stoptelling me that English rugby is
boring.
English rugby obviouslyincludes anywhere, anybody, any
English-speaking nation.
It is really inspiring beingthere, just the bravery that
(06:01):
they play with, and it kind ofmakes you feel that you can do
it too.
Sue Anstiss (06:05):
You played both 15s and 7s at the highest level.
But if we go back to the verybeginning, how did you get into
rugby?
How did it start for you?
Rhona Lloyd (06:13):
For me it started at Miss School, tycastle High
School.
So I grew up in Edinburgh andit was one of the Scotland
women's players at the time.
Sarah Quick, she was a directorof rugby in the area and she
came and ran a tepster sessionat my school and I just
absolutely loved it and it wasfrom there that she said you
know, come along to MurrayfieldWanderers.
So yeah, my first team was onthe back pitches at Murrayfield.
So it's really cool now to seethe journey that it's been on.
(06:37):
And even it's so crazy to thinkback, because I think playing
for Scotland that was always thedream, but being a professional
rugby player wasn't, becausethat didn't exist and it really
fell so far off when I firststarted playing for Scotland
that what my life looks like now, that felt like something that
was in 20 years' time.
It didn't feel like somethingthat I was going to get access
(06:59):
to.
So, although it's still got along way to go, I just feel so
blessed to have been playingwomen's sport during this time
where I think, just year on year, season on season, in so many
sports it's just getting betterand better and bigger and, yeah,
it's been an amazing journey.
Sue Anstiss (07:13):
I do often comment on that that we are in this
extraordinary period of change.
Sometimes you're right in it,amongst it, and you see it.
But even in you think about thelast five years.
But even in you think about thelast five years, the last 10
years, just how much that changehas happened.
How old were you when you wereat school?
You say you started at school.
How old were you then when?
Rhona Lloyd (07:30):
you started I was 12, 13.
I think it was first, secondyear of school, of high school.
Sue Anstiss (07:35):
You've talked really openly about sort of
teasing and stereotypes and someof your struggles around body
image and mental health as ayoung person growing up, so why
has it been important for you tospeak out about that?
Rhona Lloyd (07:47):
For me when I was at school.
I was the only girl in myschool that played rugby and I
went to a school in achallenging part of Edinburgh
and definitely being the girlthere that played rugby just
wasn't easy.
And yeah, I remember having areally hard time at school and
it was people teasing me forplaying rugby.
And I feel like when you talkabout it now it sounds so
(08:08):
ridiculous because I'm sounbelievably proud of playing
rugby.
But definitely the time it was,it was really difficult.
When I think now and look backon kind of what my life looks
like, there was a time that Iwas maybe 16 17, I was kind of
just involved with Scotlandunder 20s and I was going to
quit playing because I washaving a really hard time at
school.
I definitely wasn't kind ofproud to be doing something
(08:29):
different and it was a coach atthe time actually that had said
to me like look, just like,stick at it until uni, like do
your first year of uni rugby andsee how you feel then.
And I just cannot imagine whatmy life would look like now
without rugby.
Like all the amazing places,places I've got to go, all my
best friends are people I playrugby with.
It's really driven my ambitionand I hate to think about how
(08:50):
many girls miss out on thatbecause of the dropout rate of
sport that we see in girls inhigh school.
Sue Anstiss (08:56):
So if you think about your body now, it's funny,
isn't it?
Because I follow you onInstagram and see the stuff that
you post what would you saythat you love about your body
now that perhaps you struggledwith as a teenager?
Because I think that's reallyimportant as well, isn't just?
Can we celebrate the?
Rhona Lloyd (09:13):
the power and the beauty in strong bodies.
No, absolutely, and that is Ithink that's one of the biggest
changes to me.
That is has just been so crazy,because I remember at school
getting my first gym programfrom yeah, it must have been
Scotland under 18s or under 20sand the program that they gave
me it was literally likepress-ups, sit-ups, it was all
body weight stuff, and I didn'tdo it because I just had this
thing of I didn't want to looklike a man and that was.
(09:34):
I was just obsessed with thatlike not looking like a man, not
looking masculine, but I justassociated looking strong with
looking masculine at that ageand I don't think it was helped
by it was a time that Instagramwas still very new.
It was in magazines, it wouldalways kind of be supermodels
that you would see, or theKardashians or Love Island.
It wasn't.
We didn't have access to femaleathletes the way that we do now
(09:57):
.
And, yeah, whereas now, yeah, onInstagram, I'm always posting,
yes, clips from the gym or whatwe're doing in the gym.
I'm obsessed with it now and Iwant to be a strength and
conditioning coach after rugby,and I think if 16 year old me
seen what I was doing now, theywould be probably mortified.
But, yeah, they'd be reallyproud of how far they've come
(10:18):
with that and I think that'sreally been helped by that rugby
community where there is aspace for every single body
shake and size.
And, yeah, at the end of gymthere's a bunch of us that all
do like gun club together.
Which that was kind of thething that I was most scared of
when I was younger was havingbig arms, whereas acting out
that's something that I love andthat I'm really proud of.
And I think it still can behard sometimes.
(10:39):
If I don't ever go intosomething where you're wearing a
dress, and especially if it'snot with other sporty people, I
think sometimes you do feel alittle bit like you look a bit
different.
But I do see that as a strengthnow in terms of what my body
can do in the pitch, and it'snot just about what it looks
like.
Sue Anstiss (10:54):
Yeah, it's so important, isn't it?
And I do hope it's changing.
We kind of talk about that,celebrating strength, but is
that really teenage, girl age,when it's so much about
perception and your peers andhow you feel and all those
things too, isn't it?
So I guess the more that we cancelebrate that.
I mean, you hope with the kindof profile of the Rugby World
Cup and events of that kind, itcan begin to help shift that.
(11:16):
But it is still tough, isn't it, I think, when it's all they
see on social media.
Rhona Lloyd (11:21):
Oh, definitely, and I think when you're that age as
well, what somebody says inyour class about you, that is
the biggest deal in the world.
That will kind of school gossip, whereas obviously, as you get
older, you think that was soit's so irrelevant.
I meant nothing, but yes, as asyou said, I'd like to think
that there's a shift happeningthere and you also excelled at
basketball and athletics.
Sue Anstiss (11:39):
I think you were ranked in the top 100 for 60
meters in the UK at one point.
So why did you choose rugbyover those other sports,
especially athletics?
Because you've got to feelthere was probably a more viable
path at the time than, as yousaid, when you look back at
rugby.
Rhona Lloyd (11:54):
At the time they didn't really feel like there
was a professional opportunityyeah, I think I did growing up,
yeah, athletics, rugby,basketball, kind of anything
that they would let me do.
I just love sport and, yeah,that athletics one definitely
still haunts me.
I think that's from under 16sor something, but it always
comes up which I love.
But I don't really know if Idon't ever remember massively
(12:17):
making a choice, like I think Iwas.
I came into athletics reallylate.
I only started when I was maybe14, and I did.
I did quite well relatively inScotland, but I don't think I
was ever going to kind of makeit there really and rugby it
kind of it went from we'retraining once a week to okay,
we're training twice a week andyou have to go to the gym two
(12:37):
times a week.
And then it was, oh, we've gotcamp most weekends, we've got
training with Scotland mostweekends.
So I guess it was more thedemand of rugby made that choice
for me.
But obviously I did it becauseI loved it and yeah, it's what
all my best friends do and it'sreally cool with the Scotland
women's team.
Now A lot of those girls I wasplaying with at under 18s, under
20s, we all came throughtogether, which is, yeah, that
(13:00):
journey's been amazing.
And that was definitely kind ofwhat what pulled me into the
people Tell us about your firstcamp for Scotland, so what that
felt like when, when that wasand what that felt like, yeah,
that was a very crazy time.
So I think I was 18 or 19 atthe time and, yeah, had been
training with Scotland.
Women had done a couple campsbefore the Six Nations, but at
(13:21):
that time like now, we'll betogether for three weeks before
the six nations.
At that time you were togetherfor maybe five days.
You didn't have a lot of timetogether, so it was quite hard
to gauge where you were atrelative to the squad, whereas
now, when you have more timetogether, you can kind of pick
up okay, this is, this is whereI am in the pecking order a
little bit.
But yeah, I remember getting anemail saying that, yeah, this
(13:43):
was the, the team to faceEngland and I was at 11 and I
was at a friend's house like Iwas not anticipating that at all
and just, yeah, being being soemotional about it and calling
my parents and they definitelyweren't expecting either, like,
no, I got my my first cap thesame day as Lisa Thompson, who's
, yeah, one of my best friendsand now, and yeah, we were 11
and 12.
So it was, yeah, a hugelyspecial day.
(14:05):
And I just remember, I rememberthat the game went so fast.
We went in for half time and Iremember thinking like I feel
like we've just come out here,but I think it was just.
It was so overwhelming and thattime, yeah, when you're young,
you really have no idea aboutwhat's coming next or what it
means to play England.
You just take youropportunities and yeah it.
It was so, so special.
Sue Anstiss (14:25):
And you've touched on how much things have changed
since then, like about a decadeor so.
But what was it like?
The setup?
Obviously, as you said, youwere in camp for less time, but
what else was different, wouldyou say, to what you're
experiencing today?
Rhona Lloyd (14:40):
It was.
So it was different in everysingle way.
Like it's almost hard to putinto words, in every single way,
like it's almost hard to putinto words we would come
together the day before a game.
So if we played on Friday night, we would meet on the Thursday.
You obviously I'm sayingobviously, that's maybe not
obviously you didn't get paid atall.
There was nothing.
And actually I remember acouple seasons in when they
brought in our first like matchfee.
It was like £50 for the game.
So I remember I was a studentat the time, so actually £50 was
(15:03):
class.
I remember being absolutelybuzzing about that which is so
funny because obviously we'realways pushing for more and yeah
, it's quite humbling actuallyto think back to that time and
think about how happy I was tobe getting £50.
Sue Anstiss (15:16):
I was just going to say.
I spoke to Carla Ward last weekfor this series two on the
football and she said exactlythe same and she was a student,
I think.
She was at Sheffield and shegot a match fee of 50 quid or
whatever and I was like, oh mygod, that's proper money as a
young student.
Rhona Lloyd (15:30):
Yeah, no, I was like unreal.
Like you played the fivematches in a second.
You got 250 pounds as a studentunreal.
No, it's crazy to think back onthat time as well.
Our coaches weren't full-timeyeah, it was just so amateur and
there would be people playing.
I don't know.
You could be playing probablythe fifth, sixth level of rugby
(15:52):
in England or Scotland for themen and you'd be getting a £50
match week.
It's really special actually tosee how much that journey's
changed.
I think it's hard now with thenew players that come in, the
young ones that come in.
It's hard now, with the newplayers that that come in, the
young ones that come in.
It's hard not to be like youguys don't know, um, but I've
got absolutely no doubt thatwhen I was 18, the players that
were 10 years older than me weresaying you know, these girls
(16:14):
don't know how good they've gotit, so there is a very long way
to go, but we definitely havecome a very long way in such a
short time and so excited to seein, yeah, in 20 years, what
rugby looks like and to be oneof the ones saying that they
don't know how good they've gotit.
Sue Anstiss (16:28):
And in terms of your playing career, where did
that impact?
Where you went to university?
Is that your kind of ambitionsfor the future?
Rhona Lloyd (16:35):
Yeah, I kind of only went to.
Nobody in my family had gone touni before and I very much went
to Edinburgh Uni because they'dscouted me for the rugby
programme and had an amazingfour years there.
I did biomedical science and wewere lucky enough to win the
Bucks final at Twickenham, whichthat was a huge deal and it
really felt like Edinburghagainst the world.
(16:56):
We were the only Scottish teamin that league, so it was such
an amazing experience and such afun thing to do, kind of to
have that time playing, playinguni sport, which I'm really
thankful for, because a lot ofthe players that come through
now you, you miss the unipathway just because the game is
so much more professional.
Then from there I went to toLoughborough to do a master's,
but again, that decision wasvery much fueled by I wanted to
(17:18):
be in England playing rugby andagain, getting a rugby
scholarship at Loughborough wasan easy way to do that.
So it's funny, I think I madeall these decisions because that
was the best thing to do forrugby and just because I loved
rugby was, yeah, now I'mdefinitely thankful that I've
come away from it with a degreein a master's as well, as I'm
getting towards the end of mycareer.
I think I've got a couple yearsleft, but yeah, it's nice to
(17:40):
know that I've kind of got thatback up, because that's another
thing that's changing in thegame is that girls are going
straight into contracts ifyou're good enough.
You're not doing uni alongsideit or working alongside it,
which was a big problem that wehad with Scotland and in my
first couple of years girlsliterally not getting time off
work to play games.
Sue Anstiss (17:56):
Yeah, it's mad, but you say it has advantages and
disadvantages in terms of careerpath too, doesn't it?
And I think that's when wefirst met in 2020, when you were
at Loughborough.
So what were your years likethen?
Looking from the outside, italways felt like such a strong
team culture and a great placeto be.
Rhona Lloyd (18:14):
Oh, definitely, loughborough is just the most
inspiring, incredible place tobe, even when you're in the gym
and, yeah, next year in the rackthere's stars from GB athletics
, gb rowing, all these differentsports.
It is, yeah, it's just such anamazing place to to train and
and to live your life and it'samazing that all your friends
(18:34):
are abiding at walk away and Iguess you really take that for
granted that everybody says theLoughborough bubble.
But it definitely was theLoughborough bubble and it's
funny because when I was withEdinburgh, we'd say, all the
girls from Loughborough, they'reso full of themselves, like,
and then when I was there, I wasdefinitely one of those people
singing Loughborough walks onwater.
But, yeah, it is.
It is a bit of a cult but it'samazing and I was lucky there.
(18:55):
I was doing an internship withBritish Athletics, so I was
studying.
I was working for BritishAthletics, so I was studying.
I was working for BritishAthletics, I was playing rugby.
It was, yeah, an amazing setup.
Sue Anstiss (19:03):
Excellent.
Yeah, I like the LoughboroughColt.
I'm still in that too, I thinkWell yeah, we do.
Rhona Lloyd (19:09):
I think like a double personality, like
Edinburgh, that was, yeah, verystudious and very serious, and
then Loughborough and that justeverybody loves a groove.
Sue Anstiss (19:17):
Your speed's obviously been a huge asset,
both for 15s and 7s, but 7s hasbrought a bit of heartache too.
Sadly, you just missed out onselection for the Tokyo Olympics
and then, unbelievably, thesame happened again for Paris.
Can you share a little bitabout how it affected you on
both occasions?
Are you happy to talk aboutthat?
Rhona Lloyd (19:36):
Yes, definitely.
I think it's something that'sreally important to talk about,
that non-selection.
But yeah, I think Tokyo Olympiccycle I missed out and yeah,
the coach had said to me that mydefence wasn't good enough,
which I think on reflection itwas true and yeah, they
basically kind of made it thatabsolute goal that I wasn't
(19:59):
going to let that happen againfor Paris and I'd made massive
strides in my game in that areaand in the lead up to Paris it
was under the impression I wasin a good place and it was.
Yeah, the non-selection justhit me like an absolute boss.
I would never have takenselection for granted, but I'd
(20:21):
been playing well on the WorldSeries.
There was definitely a lot ofthings that seemed to be
pointing in the right directionand I think rugby is subjective
and that's really difficult,that it comes down a lot of the
time to one man's opinion and itwasn't in my favour and I think
the Paris, the Parisnon-selection it was.
(20:41):
It was just hard to come to toterms with and it was hard to
understand the reasons why andwhen my world was like crashing
down on me in terms of I reallythought that the Olympics was
something that was destined forme and even things like, since I
was a kid, every time you knowyou'd have a birthday and you'd
blow out the candles on yourcake and somebody would say,
make a wish, I would always wishto go to the Olympics like
(21:03):
that's how deep rooted thisdream was and yeah, then it was
that realization of I'm notdoing another cycle.
So it was that realization ofthat's not happening.
And while you're dealing withthat, you're in training with
the team because you need to bethere for injury cover and that
was extremely difficult and Ithink something that's helped me
come to terms with it now isactually so Lucy Mulhall, who's
(21:26):
the Irish Sevens captain.
When I didn't get selected, Igot so many amazing messages and
she sent me a message and sentme it was a poem about how you
can be remembered in sport andit was about like how you make
your teammates feel like if youalways showed up for your team,
if you always worked yourhardest and and all of those
things.
And I know that I did and Iknow that I was, and continue to
be a good teammate, and I thinkI'm now in a place that I'm, I
(21:50):
guess, judging myself againstthat rather than, yeah, a
selection for a tournament,because I was selected for so
many other tournaments, but whenit's not the Olympics, it's
that's the one that everybodywants to be there for.
So, yeah, that was a little bitfluffy, but I think it's, I
guess, separating myself frombeing more than a rugby player,
which has been a massive journeythis past 12 months and has
(22:13):
been extremely, extremelydifficult this season.
I left the team early.
I didn't finish the season withthem because I was just in a
place early.
I didn't finish the season withthem because I was just in a
place.
I didn't feel like mentally Icould do that and luckily I was
very supported there and andthey made it a lot easier.
But yeah, I think I've stillgot a long way to go on that
journey, but I definitely, ifwe'd had this conversation 12
months ago, which we did talkabout, it definitely would have
(22:34):
been from this perspective,actually, I think it would have.
It would have been with a lotmore curious, but I do feel like
I'm getting there yeah, it'sinteresting, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss (22:40):
we were saying we did, we were lined up to talk
because I well, I thought youwere shooing, I thought you were
there, we were doing.
We were doing it as a lead intoParis conversation, weren't we?
Because I, yeah, so sure youwere going.
That's interesting as well,isn't it that lovely?
What was her name?
Sorry, the Irish, lucy Mulholl,lucy Mulholl, but sending you
that message because I think inthose times it's really hard to
know, it's a bit like abereavement, really, isn't?
(23:01):
It's hard to know what to sayto, but actually the power of
people reaching out and sharing,even if it doesn't kind of land
with you at the time, but butknowing it, will have an impact
and helps that process, yeah, Ithink that's it, and I think
thinking about there's it's.
Rhona Lloyd (23:17):
I think the Olympics is something that we
put on this massive pedestalrightly so, but when you get so
close to it, you do see that,like I know that I worked harder
than girls that went, but thatdoesn't matter.
I think it's just really kindof being accountable to that.
Who you are is more importantthan, yeah, what tournament you
went to and I think that takes along time to realise went to,
(23:42):
and I think that takes a longtime to to realize, and I think
probably a little bit of onus onmyself about the I'd really put
kind of my happiness andwell-being in a subjected
decision.
So, yeah, a bit of reflectionon my part about, okay, I'm, who
am I outside rugby, and doing alittle bit of soul searching on
that journey oh, it's sopowerful, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss (23:58):
I remember talking about this with Tanni
Grey-Thompson last year and Iwas reflecting on all the social
media that we were seeing asathletes post about their
celebrating their selection forOlympics or Paralympics.
And it was because of you andthat we'd had that kind of
conversation through WhatsApp oremail at the time that I'd ever
really thought about what ahard time it was, and Tanni
(24:19):
confirmed that those few weeksare so difficult as teams are
announced and inevitably so manyathletes miss out on selection,
but we almost don't think ofthat as the public because we're
just seeing all the positivesides.
Do you think that Team GB orParalympics GB or the sports
could do more to supportathletes at that time?
Rhona Lloyd (24:37):
It's hard.
I do think the athletes that doget selected.
It's incredible and as theyshould post about it everywhere
and have their moment.
I think, as an athlete that wason the other side, I muted
everybody that was anywhere nearthe Olympic Games, even if
people weren't going as aspectator.
As soon as I saw that somebodywas in Paris for an Instagram, I
was like right bye.
(24:57):
I muted them that if that camearound to bite me, because I
muted yeah, muted all myteammates and obviously was.
I was still mentioning them onwhatsapp, like I was fully in
support of them, but I didn'tneed to see every cool thing
that they were doing in Parisand they obviously understood
that.
But then I was catching up withone of them on the phone a
couple weeks ago and she wastelling them about her holiday
and I was like, oh, I didn'tknow you were there.
And she was like, have you notseen anything that I've posted
(25:19):
on Instagram?
And I was like, oh god, she'sstill muted.
I forgot to unmute her.
I was like a pretty good friend, but yeah, I think it's to be
honest.
Can team GB do more?
I'm not sure.
Like they have to celebrate thepowers that be.
I probably do think that.
So I do from a personalperspective.
It was really hard going intotraining after, but it was
(25:39):
necessary because of in case itwas an injury, that I had to be
ready.
But we and GB were playingagainst.
They were playing againstIreland and Australia in their
pool stages and girls thathadn't been selected had been
given.
We've got like yellow shirtswith a target on them for when
we were being Australia, andthen there was like green shirts
for when we're being Ireland,like there was things like that
(26:01):
that I think added a sting to it.
That was necessary and yeah, wefed back and I think that'll be
well.
It won't happen again.
So, yeah, I think it's moreprobably individual programs
just making, making that as bestit can be.
And even when you're in thosetrade-ins after selection,
there's cases with you thespooks arriving every day that
aren't for you there, for usthat arrive every day that are
(26:22):
for you leggings, like it's.
There is just so many thingsthat add to the sting.
While you're trying to be agood teammate, while your your
kind of dreams are crashing down, you're trying not to cry in
front of everybody, like it's.
It's very difficult actually.
Sue Anstiss (26:35):
I went to Canada for a month during the Olympics
and being on a different timezone, I think was was huge yeah,
yeah and I think, yeah, Iremember talking to Mohan about
the similar piece for the WorldCup and I think she similarly
left the country.
Uh, I've had a couple of a fewconversations with athletes that
I'm thinking again of.
Yeah, just go to a.
Go to a different continent ordifferent time zone, I think is
(26:58):
the key.
Yeah, and where do things standwith you with sevens now?
Is that chapter completelyclosed for you?
Rhona Lloyd (27:04):
yes, and I think I will play sevens again, but not
don't think I'll play for GBagain.
The yeah, the sevens program'sin quite a delicate position at
the moment.
They've lost their funding.
So yeah, I'm saying I won'tplay.
I don't actually know theopportunity will be to play
there.
I know that that programme isthey're fighting a lot at the
moment to keep it alive.
(27:24):
But yeah, I do love playingsevens.
I've always loved playingsevens.
So for that I think I'd love togo and play abroad, in Japan or
Hong Kong or something likethat, but that it definitely
feels a couple of years down theline.
So books not Book's, notcompletely shut on sevens, but
yeah, definitely on serioussevens and serious sevens like
that.
Sue Anstiss (27:43):
And we alluded earlier to the huge progress
we've seen with the Scottishwomen's team and professionalism
and the introduction of thosecontracts.
So can you share what impactit's had for you personally in
your day-to-day life as anathlete?
Rhona Lloyd (27:55):
the professional contract- yeah, well, I think
it's been everything really LikeI'm now a professional athlete
and that's that's all that I do,which is honestly so
mind-blowing.
When I was younger I used to.
I had a lot of injuries.
I had, yeah, like two shoulderoperations in two seasons and I
just kind of felt like I wasalways injured and actually
touch wood.
But since going professionalI've I've not found that and I
think it's just having that timeto recover and it's not
(28:18):
actually that we train more.
We do train a little bit more.
The difference is that you'renot going to train and after
working an eight-hour shiftsomewhere, it's you're just
doing your training that day.
So it really is the time forrecovery.
That's.
That's made all the difference.
And yeah, when I look back atespecially when I was at
Loughborough, there was a whileI was working this job I was
(28:38):
cleaning the tennis courts atLoughborough, started 5am,
finish at 2pm.
I'd go straight to the gym.
Our gym session started at 2pm.
It'd be the gym two till four.
Then I'd go home, get somedinner, come back in and we'd be
training from, yeah, maybe likesix till nine pm and we'd do
that back to back for days andwe'd never do that now I don't
know how I did.
(28:59):
I guess that is the differenceand that is what life once
looked like, and now it lookslike, yeah, getting enough sleep
, eating right, being able to tojust really focus on on rugby
and analysis and recovering.
Sue Anstiss (29:09):
That's so interesting, isn't it?
That it is.
You're right, it is sleep andrest and recovery isn't
necessarily the the time to liftmore weights or run more or all
those things.
It's the whole package't it,that keeps you as a healthy,
performing athlete.
And I wanted to talk to you alittle bit about the Scottish
squad, because from the outsideit looks like this fabulous,
close-knit group and I've alwaysthought I think I mentioned it
(29:31):
sometime.
I was interviewed by someonerecently about what squad would
you want to be in, and if I hadany choice, I think I'd want to
be in the Scottish squad.
That's the right answer.
Don't tell the red roses that,but I think I want to be because
I just want to be in that group.
I want to be with all thoseamazing.
So is the bond as strong as itlooks like it is from the
outside?
Rhona Lloyd (29:47):
no, absolutely I think that is yeah, it's.
We're so, so lucky.
I can't, really can't get overhow lucky I am to live this life
but actually to get to do itwith my, my absolute best
friends, and I think that's aconsequence of a lot of us came
through the pathway together andalso a consequence of we've
we've been through some reallydifficult things as as a squad.
Four years ago, um, we, we losta teammate, siobhan Cathigan,
(30:11):
and yeah, we, we went throughthat as a squad.
It happened just after a tourthat we'd been on.
So there's yeah.
And then Emma Wasso obviouslybeen unwell last year.
She's on the mend big time nowand is hopefully going to be
back in the Scotland squad soon.
But we always talk about usbeing trauma bonded, but
sometimes I think we're actuallya little bit trauma bonded, but
(30:32):
no, there's a lot of amazinggirls in the squad and, yeah,
we're all so proud to representScotland and get to be together.
So, yeah, I feel so lucky.
Sue Anstiss (30:41):
That's lovely to hear.
I was going to ask you aboutboth of those issues and
challenges and and the impactit's had for you, both as
players on pitch but also offthe pitch, and as individuals
too yeah, no, it has beenmassively challenging, I think,
especially like this this pastseason with Emma.
Rhona Lloyd (31:00):
Yeah, I'm one of her best, she's one of my best
friends and it was very hard tofocus on rugby when I think when
a friend gets ill in the waythat Emma did, emma had a tumour
and it has been removed now andshe's making a full recovery.
For anybody that doesn't knowher story, but when things like
that happen, you really realisethat there's more to life than
(31:21):
rugby.
I think the game just feels soinsignificant and I found it
really hard actually to performduring that time because it felt
a little bit meaninglesscompared to what was going on
with my friends.
So, yeah, it's been challengingand I think it can be
challenging to perform as anathlete.
We always put pressure onourselves to be the best every
(31:41):
single week, and definitely thispast we always put pressure on
ourselves to kind of be the bestevery single week and
definitely this past season.
I think I've had to accept thatactually you can't be at the
peak of your performance all thetime, that you're going to have
dips if that's due to injury,to physical things, to, yeah,
your mental health and thingshappening off pitch.
But I guess, riding that waveand yeah, fortunately Emma's,
yeah, we'll hopefully see her ina Scotland squad very soon, um,
(32:04):
I've got absolutely no doubt.
So that'll really feel like afull journey moment once when
she's back out with us.
Sue Anstiss (32:09):
And in terms of WXV so a relatively new global
tournament and Scotland won thesecond tier of the competition
in 2023.
So how has that shaped yourconfidence as a team?
Rhona Lloyd (32:21):
so we've talked about that lovely bonded, united
group, but in terms of playingas a team and success, so that
was huge and I think, as I said,that the group's really united
and there's a lot of us thatwere capped within the same
period around the season that Iwas and that we've all come
through together.
And yeah, I played seven gamesfor Scotland before I won a game
.
We we won our first Six Nationsgame in seven years.
(32:44):
During my second season, wequalified for our first World
Cup in 12 years.
For the last World Cup, wereally did go through a lot of
losses and I think to win thatWXE tournament, it was the first
silverware that Scotland hadwon in.
I think it was 22 years sinceScotland had won anything.
It really felt kind of like,okay, we've, scotland women,
(33:08):
we're a different team.
Now we've really moved in adifferent direction and I think
people talk about a lot ininternational sport like leaving
the shirt in a better place andI think winning that WXV
tournament.
It really felt like okay, we've, we've done that, we've really
made strides in the rightdirection and yeah, it was.
It was incredible, like thattournament in South Africa, it
was one of the best times of mylife.
I think we had an amazing timeoff pitch.
We performed on the pitch andyeah, tours.
(33:30):
You always say the best toursare the one that you were
successful on that.
That was an amazing time and,yeah, we had our when we were
out there.
Our last game was on the Fridayand we didn't have flights home
till the Monday, so it was avery good last weekend as well.
Sue Anstiss (33:42):
Proper bonding there yes, Along with your rugby
and academics, you've also gotquite a creative musical side.
You played bagpipes, ukuleleand the guitar as well, I
believe.
So how important is it for youto have those interests outside
of rugby.
Rhona Lloyd (33:56):
Yeah, I think so important the ukulele we always
take away on tour and we willwrite songs or or sing songs on
the bus and stuff.
It's yeah, it's just a nice wayto bring people together.
I think, through through a bitof music and, yeah, the bagpipes
, the I'm I think I'm just soproud to be Scottish, basically,
but I thought, well, I have tolearn them.
So, yeah, I'm very much on theI'm, absolutely cannot play the
(34:18):
bagpipes yet we're very, verymuch on the journey we're
getting there.
I think I probably need somelessons.
I've been trying to teachmyself but I've hit a bit of a
wall.
So if there's anybody bagpiperslistening that might be able to
help me out, definitely give mea message.
Sue Anstiss (34:30):
There must be.
Surely there has to be, doesn'tthere?
Bagpipe tutors.
Rhona Lloyd (34:39):
Yeah, looking last season when I was struggling a
bit since the Olympics election,I really reflected on I need to
have other things going on inmy life and actually challenging
yourself in different ways,learning an instrument.
It's a good way to do that andyou've been walking as well.
Sue Anstiss (34:51):
You've been out, haven't you?
Yeah, I looked at you then youfrowned no, I have.
Rhona Lloyd (34:55):
I went on um, it was basically went on a
pilgrimage, but the Camino deSantiago, if anybody's heard of
it, and yeah, I did this liketwo week walking holiday.
I get through through ruralFrance.
It was.
It was absolutely amazing.
Yeah, there's there's like aTikTok trend.
That's like your unemployedfriend on a Tuesday and I
honestly think that is mesometimes when I talk about my
life walking through ruralFrance.
(35:16):
But no, basically I had acouple weeks off between seasons
and I wanted to do this forages and kind of always thought
I'll do it after rugby, but Ithought kind of why not do a
little bit of it now?
And so the walking total isabout 10 weeks.
I only did two weeks, obviouslydidn't have much more time than
that, but it was honestly soamazing and inspiring to be.
(35:37):
I was in a situation.
I did it on my own, so wasn'tin loads of new people.
I felt so disconnected fromrugby but really in like the
nicest way possible, peoplethere would say, oh, like you do
sport, what do you do?
I would say I play rugby andthen that would be it.
There would be no more aboutkind of what that looks like,
even though outside rugby.
That's.
It's my absolute life.
Yeah, I think that was a reallybig step in kind of that
(35:59):
processing of not going to theOlympics.
Actually, I think just havingtwo weeks to be disconnected
from rugby to think about kindof what I want my life to look
like and who I want to be, yeahit was amazing.
I really recommend that anybodydoes it Lovely.
Sue Anstiss (36:13):
It's on my bucket list too at some point.
It was amazing, and you and Ifirst met through the Women's
Sport Trust Unlocked programmeback in 2020.
It does feel like a while ago,and you were co-hosting the
Brilliant Women who Sportpodcast with Sarah Bonner, so
are you still involved with thatnow?
Is podcasting or broadcastingsomething you'd like to do more
of in the future?
Rhona Lloyd (36:33):
Yes, definitely We've taken a little break from
the podcast, just in terms ofour our schedules with rugby.
We're making a little bitdifficult, but we're actually
we're hosting our first liveevent at the end of summer oh,
brilliant, before we go away,which I'm yeah, I'm definitely
gonna chew your ear off about,certainly to this but, yeah,
we're.
We're both still so, sopassionate about the podcast.
It's just trying to find theright time has proved a little
(36:55):
bit difficult, but yeah, I thinkjust invest in more time and
things outside rugby and I, whenI was doing the podcast I don't
know if you feel the same, butI would always feel like at the
end of a conversation, I wouldfeel so inspired or that I was
thinking about somethingdifferently.
And yeah, you can really justlearn so much from different
people's journeys and I justlove that about it it's the
(37:15):
ultimate privilege, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss (37:16):
I was reflecting on it this weekend with somebody,
but it is the um and I guess youcan listen to podcasts and I do
listen to a lot of podcasts butthere's something about
preparing the questions,researching the person and then
being in the con.
It's like what a joy to be ableto just ask somebody anything
you want to ask about and,exactly as you say, I come away.
Rhona Lloyd (37:33):
I'm always just so affected and impacted by the
conversations that we have yeah,no, I absolutely felt the same,
but it's, we definitely did itbecause we were like, well, we
want to share these journeys ofwomen in sport, but then we
would just leave everyconversation being like god,
that was for us, that wasamazing, which was really cool
and obviously we've got therugby world cup this month and
the first lions tour on thehorizon in 2027.
Sue Anstiss (37:56):
You're playing future, still full of
opportunity, and you said youhope to play for a few more
years.
But if you could look back nowand pick a moment or a game that
really stands out for you asthe most memorable, what would
that be?
Rhona Lloyd (38:10):
I think one tournament that really sticks in
my head was we did ToulouseSevens with Scotland and at that
time Scotland weren't in theWorld Series, so we were an
invitational team and we had ourfirst training session on the
Tuesday and the tournament wasthe Friday, saturday, sunday and
it was over 12 teams andhistorically the invitational
(38:31):
team always comes 12.
But we came 9th that tournamentand we didn't have much time
together but we did have 12people that were we were best
friends off it.
We worked so hard for eachother and we just backed each
other up and we had this amazingculture and I really think
that's what gave us success inthat tournament like we had no
right to win one game there,never mind to.
(38:53):
We must have won two games tofinish ninth.
And I think I'm so passionateabout team culture and how
important that is, and I thinkthat tournament just really
epitomized that and we, we beatEngland, we beat South Africa to
to finish ninth and yeah, itwas just such, an such an
amazing memory.
(39:13):
And I think there's also, whenthere's there's no pressure on
your back, when everybody'sexpecting you to come 12, I
think then you can just playwith such freedom and I think
it's that probably the key tosport is figuring out how to
feel like that, even when thereis pressure on your back, which
I've not quite cracked yet.
Sue Anstiss (39:29):
So I love that.
I love that that's your.
That's so memorable for youthat I, if I'd have picked one
for you, it wouldn't have beenthat.
So that's kind of so nice thatthat does still resonate and
have so much impact yeah, no, itwas.
Rhona Lloyd (39:40):
That was such an amazing time and it was actually
it was the end of that summerthat Scotland Sevens was.
It was cut because it became aGD program, which was a massive
step in the right direction.
But when I look back at thatsummer it's like we did not know
, kind of how special that timewould have been.
Sue Anstiss (39:54):
It's only now looking back but we can say that
because the program doesn'texist anymore and just finally,
and we have alluded to this alittle bit earlier on but what
does success look like for youtoday, I wonder?
Can I have, and how it'schanged since we first met five
years ago?
Rhona Lloyd (40:07):
yeah, I think success for me now is is
definitely enjoying what I do.
I think that's a big focus thatI have right now and yeah, it's
been a massive journey to getto that point.
I think this past season whereI was, I was really not enjoying
rugby, like really not enjoyingplaying, not looking forward to
games, and that was the firsttime that I ever felt like I was
(40:28):
playing because somebody waspaying me to play, not because I
loved playing and not because Iwas choosing to play.
And yeah, I think I'mdefinitely getting that love for
the game back and it's been abig challenge to get there.
But I think now, going into thenext couple of seasons, my goal
is to enjoy it and definitelywhen I am enjoying rugby, that's
(40:50):
when I'm playing my best.
So I guess I'm focusing a lotmore on me as a person rather
than me as a player right now.
And that's definitely been afallout of not getting selected
to the olympics and kind ofhaving to re-evaluate what
success meant for me, becausesuccess for me was always going
to be going to the olympic games.
So not doing that like have Ibeen unsuccessful, yes, in that
journey, but it doesn't meanthat I need to lose my sense of
(41:12):
self, which I definitely did fora couple months.
So, yeah, right now it's reallycliched, but just enjoying what
I do is what success looks likeand yeah, I think if I focus on
that, then the performancelooks after itself.
Sue Anstiss (41:29):
It was so lovely to finally talk to Rona for the
podcast after we've beendiscussing it for such a long
time.
If you'd like to hear fromother trailblazers in rugby,
previous guests on the GameChangers have included the likes
of Sue Day, mo Hunt, maggieAlfonsi, jodie Owensley, lisa
O'Keefe, shauna Brown, emmaMitchell, sarah Hunter and male
(41:51):
ally Hugo Monnier.
There are over 200 episodes ofthe Game Changers that are free
to listen to on all podcastplatforms or from our website at
fearlesswomencouk.
Along with elite athletes,guests include coaches,
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(42:11):
all women who are changing thegame in sport Changing the Game
in Sport.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, that's
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We now have over 13,000 membersacross the world, so please do
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The whole of my book Game On theUnstoppable Rise of Women's
(42:34):
Sport is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Every episode of series 13 isme reading a chapter of the book
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Thank you once again to SportEngland for backing the Game
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(42:55):
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You can find the Game Changerspodcast on all the regular
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Do come and say hello on socialmedia, but you'll find me on
(43:15):
LinkedIn and Instagram at SueAnstis, the Game Changers
fearless women in sport.
Hello and welcome to The Game Changers.
I'm Sue Anstiss, and this isthe podcast where you'll hear
from trailblazing women in sportwho are knocking down barriers
and challenging the status quofor women and girls everywhere.
What can we learn from theirjourneys as we explore key
issues around equality in sportand beyond?
I'd like to start with a bigthank you to our partners, Sport
(00:24):
England, who support the GameChangers podcast with a National
Lottery Award.
My guest today is Rhona Lloyd, aScottish international rugby
star known for her blisteringpace, try scoring flair and her
powerful presence both on andoff the pitch.
Rhona made her debut forScotland in 2016 and has scored
(00:48):
25 tries for her country in 57caps, playing in the Rugby World
Cup in 2022 and shining at clublevel both in the UK and in
France.
Rhona returns to the UK thisseason to play once again in the
PWR Premiership Women's RugbyOff the field.
(01:13):
Rhona's been a co-host of thepodcast Women who Sport and is a
vocal advocate for bodyconfidence and mental well-being
in elite sport, using herplatform to inspire young female
athletes to value strength,resilience and self-worth.
So, Rhona, life's changed quitea bit for you over the past
couple of years, so can youstart by telling us where you're
currently living and whereyou'll be playing professionally
(01:34):
in 2026, 25 and 6?
.
Rhona Lloyd (01:37):
Yes, absolutely.
So I'm actually back at myparents' house this summer.
I think I've moved out aboutthree times and every time I end
up coming back just when theythink that they're rid of me.
And but no, I have been.
I was playing in Bordeaux, sothat has been my team for the
past couple years.
But I'm moving to Sale Sharksnext summer.
So I think, with the it being ahome world cup in England, I
(01:58):
think the, the PWR after thatworld cup, I think it's going to
explode and it just seemed likethe right time to try and get
myself back in there.
So, yeah, really lookingforward actually to living in
Manchester and seeing what salehas to offer.
Sue Anstiss (02:09):
Excellent.
How does it feel to be backthere, having been in France
Because there's not that manyBritish women that go to play in
France it still feels like it'ssomething a little bit rarer.
Rhona Lloyd (02:19):
Yeah definitely, and I think when I first went
over I went over fromLoughborough Lightning four
years ago I didn't think thatthere was much difference
between the French League andthe English League, whereas I
think kind of credit to the RFUthe English League has just
absolutely exploded in the pastcouple of years and it's such an
exciting league now anddefinitely one that I want to
play in.
So it was kind of that thatmotivated the switch back and it
(02:41):
felt like the right time for achange, although I did love my
four years in Bordeaux.
But yeah, I just kind of feltlike it's it's the time for a
change.
And when I spoke to Sail I justgot such a good impression and
Katie Daly-Nuclea and I used toplay with at Loughborough she's
their director of rugby there,so yeah, that was a big
motivator for the move as well.
Sue Anstiss (02:58):
I can't believe it's been four years.
Like I knew you went, I wouldprobably have said it was two.
That seems to have gone reallyquickly, your four years.
Rhona Lloyd (03:06):
No, I agree, yeah, I absolutely agree, but I think
anybody that has the opportunityto play abroad, in whatever
sport, I would say take it withtwo hands.
It's such an amazing experienceand I think, even off pitch,
being the person that doesn'tspeak the language, that's not
something we get as Englishspeakers a lot and yeah, we're
just challenged in so many, inso many ways.
(03:26):
So it was amazing, do you?
Sue Anstiss (03:27):
think it's changed how you will welcome overseas
players in the PWR.
Rhona Lloyd (03:31):
Massively.
I think that was I remember myfirst year there, especially
when I couldn't speak thelanguage and like people would
invite me out for a coffee and Iwould be so touched by it, I
just to kind of feel included inthe team and it really made me
reflect, me reflect on that I'mgoing to be a better teammate in
the future for having beenthrough that experience, because
it's so hard and I think whenyou speak English it's probably
(03:52):
an experience that we take a bitfor granted that everybody
speaks your language, and thatwas kind of what I anticipated
going over there and, yeah, itdefinitely wasn't the case.
Sue Anstiss (04:01):
But yeah, I think, exactly as you've said, I'll
definitely if, yeah, foreignplayers are coming over to the
PWR, definitely try and be abetter teammate for them though,
and you've talked positivelyabout where the PWR is, as you
say that it's kind of reallyevolved in these last few years,
but what were the biggestdifferences you saw in France in
terms of that environmentaround the female game To be?
Rhona Lloyd (04:20):
honest, in France the like, the fan base, is
amazing.
I was in the southwest ofFrance and you're bored to lose
derbies.
It was absolutely huge.
People were mad for rugby there, which it was so exciting to
live and breathe.
But I think what the PWR does sowell is that kind of the media
side of the game.
All the games are streamed nowand good quality streams.
(04:42):
So then World Rugby arereposting the tries, whereas the
French game a lot of the timethere's not a stream or video
footage.
It's one person with a camera,it's not good quality footage.
So then World Rugby aren'tresharing it.
You might have to do some ofthe best players in the world in
that league.
So yeah, I think that'sdefinitely somewhere that the
PWR is invested and it's reallypaid off.
And in France there was oneweek we played against we were
(05:05):
in front of 13,000, playing awayto Clermont, and then the next
week we played Lyon away.
We were on these back pitches.
There was honestly like maybe12 people there.
It's just the inconsistency,whereas I think the PWR now kind
of week in, week out, it is aprofessional setup, which is why
I think we all say it's thebest league in the world.
Sue Anstiss (05:23):
And it's interesting, isn't it?
I think from the outside wethink it's always those massive
crowds in France, like at everygame, so I think that maybe
that's a misperception thatwe've got too.
Do you feel it's reallypositively impacted your playing
?
Has it changed your playingstyle or your mentality, your
approach to playing out there?
Rhona Lloyd (05:40):
Yeah, I think definitely.
They play such an excitingbrand of rugby, which we see
with the French national team aswell.
They're so attacking, they'reso brave in the way that they
attack.
And, yeah, they don't stoptelling me that English rugby is
boring.
English rugby obviouslyincludes anywhere, anybody, any
English-speaking nation.
It is really inspiring beingthere, just the bravery that
(06:01):
they play with, and it kind ofmakes you feel that you can do
it too.
Sue Anstiss (06:05):
You played both 15s and 7s at the highest level.
But if we go back to the verybeginning, how did you get into
rugby?
How did it start for you?
Rhona Lloyd (06:13):
For me it started at Miss School, tycastle High
School.
So I grew up in Edinburgh andit was one of the Scotland
women's players at the time.
Sarah Quick, she was a directorof rugby in the area and she
came and ran a tepster sessionat my school and I just
absolutely loved it and it wasfrom there that she said you
know, come along to MurrayfieldWanderers.
So yeah, my first team was onthe back pitches at Murrayfield.
So it's really cool now to seethe journey that it's been on.
(06:37):
And even it's so crazy to thinkback, because I think playing
for Scotland that was always thedream, but being a professional
rugby player wasn't, becausethat didn't exist and it really
fell so far off when I firststarted playing for Scotland
that what my life looks like now, that felt like something that
was in 20 years' time.
It didn't feel like somethingthat I was going to get access
(06:59):
to.
So, although it's still got along way to go, I just feel so
blessed to have been playingwomen's sport during this time
where I think, just year on year, season on season, in so many
sports it's just getting betterand better and bigger and, yeah,
it's been an amazing journey.
Sue Anstiss (07:13):
I do often comment on that that we are in this
extraordinary period of change.
Sometimes you're right in it,amongst it, and you see it.
But even in you think about thelast five years.
But even in you think about thelast five years, the last 10
years, just how much that changehas happened.
How old were you when you wereat school?
You say you started at school.
How old were you then when?
Rhona Lloyd (07:30):
you started I was 12, 13.
I think it was first, secondyear of school, of high school.
Sue Anstiss (07:35):
You've talked really openly about sort of
teasing and stereotypes and someof your struggles around body
image and mental health as ayoung person growing up, so why
has it been important for you tospeak out about that?
Rhona Lloyd (07:47):
For me when I was at school.
I was the only girl in myschool that played rugby and I
went to a school in achallenging part of Edinburgh
and definitely being the girlthere that played rugby just
wasn't easy.
And yeah, I remember having areally hard time at school and
it was people teasing me forplaying rugby.
And I feel like when you talkabout it now it sounds so
(08:08):
ridiculous because I'm sounbelievably proud of playing
rugby.
But definitely the time it was,it was really difficult.
When I think now and look backon kind of what my life looks
like, there was a time that Iwas maybe 16 17, I was kind of
just involved with Scotlandunder 20s and I was going to
quit playing because I washaving a really hard time at
school.
I definitely wasn't kind ofproud to be doing something
(08:29):
different and it was a coach atthe time actually that had said
to me like look, just like,stick at it until uni, like do
your first year of uni rugby andsee how you feel then.
And I just cannot imagine whatmy life would look like now
without rugby.
Like all the amazing places,places I've got to go, all my
best friends are people I playrugby with.
It's really driven my ambitionand I hate to think about how
(08:50):
many girls miss out on thatbecause of the dropout rate of
sport that we see in girls inhigh school.
Sue Anstiss (08:56):
So if you think about your body now, it's funny,
isn't it?
Because I follow you onInstagram and see the stuff that
you post what would you saythat you love about your body
now that perhaps you struggledwith as a teenager?
Because I think that's reallyimportant as well, isn't just?
Can we celebrate the?
Rhona Lloyd (09:13):
the power and the beauty in strong bodies.
No, absolutely, and that is Ithink that's one of the biggest
changes to me.
That is has just been so crazy,because I remember at school
getting my first gym programfrom yeah, it must have been
Scotland under 18s or under 20sand the program that they gave
me it was literally likepress-ups, sit-ups, it was all
body weight stuff, and I didn'tdo it because I just had this
thing of I didn't want to looklike a man and that was.
(09:34):
I was just obsessed with thatlike not looking like a man, not
looking masculine, but I justassociated looking strong with
looking masculine at that ageand I don't think it was helped
by it was a time that Instagramwas still very new.
It was in magazines, it wouldalways kind of be supermodels
that you would see, or theKardashians or Love Island.
It wasn't.
We didn't have access to femaleathletes the way that we do now
(09:57):
.
And, yeah, whereas now, yeah, onInstagram, I'm always posting,
yes, clips from the gym or whatwe're doing in the gym.
I'm obsessed with it now and Iwant to be a strength and
conditioning coach after rugby,and I think if 16 year old me
seen what I was doing now, theywould be probably mortified.
But, yeah, they'd be reallyproud of how far they've come
(10:18):
with that and I think that'sreally been helped by that rugby
community where there is aspace for every single body
shake and size.
And, yeah, at the end of gymthere's a bunch of us that all
do like gun club together.
Which that was kind of thething that I was most scared of
when I was younger was havingbig arms, whereas acting out
that's something that I love andthat I'm really proud of.
And I think it still can behard sometimes.
(10:39):
If I don't ever go intosomething where you're wearing a
dress, and especially if it'snot with other sporty people, I
think sometimes you do feel alittle bit like you look a bit
different.
But I do see that as a strengthnow in terms of what my body
can do in the pitch, and it'snot just about what it looks
like.
Sue Anstiss (10:54):
Yeah, it's so important, isn't it?
And I do hope it's changing.
We kind of talk about that,celebrating strength, but is
that really teenage, girl age,when it's so much about
perception and your peers andhow you feel and all those
things too, isn't it?
So I guess the more that we cancelebrate that.
I mean, you hope with the kindof profile of the Rugby World
Cup and events of that kind, itcan begin to help shift that.
(11:16):
But it is still tough, isn't it, I think, when it's all they
see on social media.
Rhona Lloyd (11:21):
Oh, definitely, and I think when you're that age as
well, what somebody says inyour class about you, that is
the biggest deal in the world.
That will kind of school gossip, whereas obviously, as you get
older, you think that was soit's so irrelevant.
I meant nothing, but yes, as asyou said, I'd like to think
that there's a shift happeningthere and you also excelled at
basketball and athletics.
Sue Anstiss (11:39):
I think you were ranked in the top 100 for 60
meters in the UK at one point.
So why did you choose rugbyover those other sports,
especially athletics?
Because you've got to feelthere was probably a more viable
path at the time than, as yousaid, when you look back at
rugby.
Rhona Lloyd (11:54):
At the time they didn't really feel like there
was a professional opportunityyeah, I think I did growing up,
yeah, athletics, rugby,basketball, kind of anything
that they would let me do.
I just love sport and, yeah,that athletics one definitely
still haunts me.
I think that's from under 16sor something, but it always
comes up which I love.
But I don't really know if Idon't ever remember massively
(12:17):
making a choice, like I think Iwas.
I came into athletics reallylate.
I only started when I was maybe14, and I did.
I did quite well relatively inScotland, but I don't think I
was ever going to kind of makeit there really and rugby it
kind of it went from we'retraining once a week to okay,
we're training twice a week andyou have to go to the gym two
(12:37):
times a week.
And then it was, oh, we've gotcamp most weekends, we've got
training with Scotland mostweekends.
So I guess it was more thedemand of rugby made that choice
for me.
But obviously I did it becauseI loved it and yeah, it's what
all my best friends do and it'sreally cool with the Scotland
women's team.
Now A lot of those girls I wasplaying with at under 18s, under
20s, we all came throughtogether, which is, yeah, that
(13:00):
journey's been amazing.
And that was definitely kind ofwhat what pulled me into the
people Tell us about your firstcamp for Scotland, so what that
felt like when, when that wasand what that felt like, yeah,
that was a very crazy time.
So I think I was 18 or 19 atthe time and, yeah, had been
training with Scotland.
Women had done a couple campsbefore the Six Nations, but at
(13:21):
that time like now, we'll betogether for three weeks before
the six nations.
At that time you were togetherfor maybe five days.
You didn't have a lot of timetogether, so it was quite hard
to gauge where you were atrelative to the squad, whereas
now, when you have more timetogether, you can kind of pick
up okay, this is, this is whereI am in the pecking order a
little bit.
But yeah, I remember getting anemail saying that, yeah, this
(13:43):
was the, the team to faceEngland and I was at 11 and I
was at a friend's house like Iwas not anticipating that at all
and just, yeah, being being soemotional about it and calling
my parents and they definitelyweren't expecting either, like,
no, I got my my first cap thesame day as Lisa Thompson, who's
, yeah, one of my best friendsand now, and yeah, we were 11
and 12.
So it was, yeah, a hugelyspecial day.
(14:05):
And I just remember, I rememberthat the game went so fast.
We went in for half time and Iremember thinking like I feel
like we've just come out here,but I think it was just.
It was so overwhelming and thattime, yeah, when you're young,
you really have no idea aboutwhat's coming next or what it
means to play England.
You just take youropportunities and yeah it.
It was so, so special.
Sue Anstiss (14:25):
And you've touched on how much things have changed
since then, like about a decadeor so.
But what was it like?
The setup?
Obviously, as you said, youwere in camp for less time, but
what else was different, wouldyou say, to what you're
experiencing today?
Rhona Lloyd (14:40):
It was.
So it was different in everysingle way.
Like it's almost hard to putinto words, in every single way,
like it's almost hard to putinto words we would come
together the day before a game.
So if we played on Friday night, we would meet on the Thursday.
You obviously I'm sayingobviously, that's maybe not
obviously you didn't get paid atall.
There was nothing.
And actually I remember acouple seasons in when they
brought in our first like matchfee.
It was like £50 for the game.
So I remember I was a studentat the time, so actually £50 was
(15:03):
class.
I remember being absolutelybuzzing about that which is so
funny because obviously we'realways pushing for more and yeah
, it's quite humbling actuallyto think back to that time and
think about how happy I was tobe getting £50.
Sue Anstiss (15:16):
I was just going to say.
I spoke to Carla Ward last weekfor this series two on the
football and she said exactlythe same and she was a student,
I think.
She was at Sheffield and shegot a match fee of 50 quid or
whatever and I was like, oh mygod, that's proper money as a
young student.
Rhona Lloyd (15:30):
Yeah, no, I was like unreal.
Like you played the fivematches in a second.
You got 250 pounds as a studentunreal.
No, it's crazy to think back onthat time as well.
Our coaches weren't full-timeyeah, it was just so amateur and
there would be people playing.
I don't know.
You could be playing probablythe fifth, sixth level of rugby
(15:52):
in England or Scotland for themen and you'd be getting a £50
match week.
It's really special actually tosee how much that journey's
changed.
I think it's hard now with thenew players that come in, the
young ones that come in.
It's hard now, with the newplayers that that come in, the
young ones that come in.
It's hard not to be like youguys don't know, um, but I've
got absolutely no doubt thatwhen I was 18, the players that
were 10 years older than me weresaying you know, these girls
(16:14):
don't know how good they've gotit, so there is a very long way
to go, but we definitely havecome a very long way in such a
short time and so excited to seein, yeah, in 20 years, what
rugby looks like and to be oneof the ones saying that they
don't know how good they've gotit.
Sue Anstiss (16:28):
And in terms of your playing career, where did
that impact?
Where you went to university?
Is that your kind of ambitionsfor the future?
Rhona Lloyd (16:35):
Yeah, I kind of only went to.
Nobody in my family had gone touni before and I very much went
to Edinburgh Uni because they'dscouted me for the rugby
programme and had an amazingfour years there.
I did biomedical science and wewere lucky enough to win the
Bucks final at Twickenham, whichthat was a huge deal and it
really felt like Edinburghagainst the world.
(16:56):
We were the only Scottish teamin that league, so it was such
an amazing experience and such afun thing to do, kind of to
have that time playing, playinguni sport, which I'm really
thankful for, because a lot ofthe players that come through
now you, you miss the unipathway just because the game is
so much more professional.
Then from there I went to toLoughborough to do a master's,
but again, that decision wasvery much fueled by I wanted to
(17:18):
be in England playing rugby andagain, getting a rugby
scholarship at Loughborough wasan easy way to do that.
So it's funny, I think I madeall these decisions because that
was the best thing to do forrugby and just because I loved
rugby was, yeah, now I'mdefinitely thankful that I've
come away from it with a degreein a master's as well, as I'm
getting towards the end of mycareer.
I think I've got a couple yearsleft, but yeah, it's nice to
(17:40):
know that I've kind of got thatback up, because that's another
thing that's changing in thegame is that girls are going
straight into contracts ifyou're good enough.
You're not doing uni alongsideit or working alongside it,
which was a big problem that wehad with Scotland and in my
first couple of years girlsliterally not getting time off
work to play games.
Sue Anstiss (17:56):
Yeah, it's mad, but you say it has advantages and
disadvantages in terms of careerpath too, doesn't it?
And I think that's when wefirst met in 2020, when you were
at Loughborough.
So what were your years likethen?
Looking from the outside, italways felt like such a strong
team culture and a great placeto be.
Rhona Lloyd (18:14):
Oh, definitely, loughborough is just the most
inspiring, incredible place tobe, even when you're in the gym
and, yeah, next year in the rackthere's stars from GB athletics
, gb rowing, all these differentsports.
It is, yeah, it's just such anamazing place to to train and
and to live your life and it'samazing that all your friends
(18:34):
are abiding at walk away and Iguess you really take that for
granted that everybody says theLoughborough bubble.
But it definitely was theLoughborough bubble and it's
funny because when I was withEdinburgh, we'd say, all the
girls from Loughborough, they'reso full of themselves, like,
and then when I was there, I wasdefinitely one of those people
singing Loughborough walks onwater.
But, yeah, it is.
It is a bit of a cult but it'samazing and I was lucky there.
(18:55):
I was doing an internship withBritish Athletics, so I was
studying.
I was working for BritishAthletics, so I was studying.
I was working for BritishAthletics, I was playing rugby.
It was, yeah, an amazing setup.
Sue Anstiss (19:03):
Excellent.
Yeah, I like the LoughboroughColt.
I'm still in that too, I thinkWell yeah, we do.
Rhona Lloyd (19:09):
I think like a double personality, like
Edinburgh, that was, yeah, verystudious and very serious, and
then Loughborough and that justeverybody loves a groove.
Sue Anstiss (19:17):
Your speed's obviously been a huge asset,
both for 15s and 7s, but 7s hasbrought a bit of heartache too.
Sadly, you just missed out onselection for the Tokyo Olympics
and then, unbelievably, thesame happened again for Paris.
Can you share a little bitabout how it affected you on
both occasions?
Are you happy to talk aboutthat?
Rhona Lloyd (19:36):
Yes, definitely.
I think it's something that'sreally important to talk about,
that non-selection.
But yeah, I think Tokyo Olympiccycle I missed out and yeah,
the coach had said to me that mydefence wasn't good enough,
which I think on reflection itwas true and yeah, they
basically kind of made it thatabsolute goal that I wasn't
(19:59):
going to let that happen againfor Paris and I'd made massive
strides in my game in that areaand in the lead up to Paris it
was under the impression I wasin a good place and it was.
Yeah, the non-selection justhit me like an absolute boss.
I would never have takenselection for granted, but I'd
(20:21):
been playing well on the WorldSeries.
There was definitely a lot ofthings that seemed to be
pointing in the right directionand I think rugby is subjective
and that's really difficult,that it comes down a lot of the
time to one man's opinion and itwasn't in my favour and I think
the Paris, the Parisnon-selection it was.
(20:41):
It was just hard to come to toterms with and it was hard to
understand the reasons why andwhen my world was like crashing
down on me in terms of I reallythought that the Olympics was
something that was destined forme and even things like, since I
was a kid, every time you knowyou'd have a birthday and you'd
blow out the candles on yourcake and somebody would say,
make a wish, I would always wishto go to the Olympics like
(21:03):
that's how deep rooted thisdream was and yeah, then it was
that realization of I'm notdoing another cycle.
So it was that realization ofthat's not happening.
And while you're dealing withthat, you're in training with
the team because you need to bethere for injury cover and that
was extremely difficult and Ithink something that's helped me
come to terms with it now isactually so Lucy Mulhall, who's
(21:26):
the Irish Sevens captain.
When I didn't get selected, Igot so many amazing messages and
she sent me a message and sentme it was a poem about how you
can be remembered in sport andit was about like how you make
your teammates feel like if youalways showed up for your team,
if you always worked yourhardest and and all of those
things.
And I know that I did and Iknow that I was, and continue to
be a good teammate, and I thinkI'm now in a place that I'm, I
(21:50):
guess, judging myself againstthat rather than, yeah, a
selection for a tournament,because I was selected for so
many other tournaments, but whenit's not the Olympics, it's
that's the one that everybodywants to be there for.
So, yeah, that was a little bitfluffy, but I think it's, I
guess, separating myself frombeing more than a rugby player,
which has been a massive journeythis past 12 months and has
(22:13):
been extremely, extremelydifficult this season.
I left the team early.
I didn't finish the season withthem because I was just in a
place early.
I didn't finish the season withthem because I was just in a
place.
I didn't feel like mentally Icould do that and luckily I was
very supported there and andthey made it a lot easier.
But yeah, I think I've stillgot a long way to go on that
journey, but I definitely, ifwe'd had this conversation 12
months ago, which we did talkabout, it definitely would have
(22:34):
been from this perspective,actually, I think it would have.
It would have been with a lotmore curious, but I do feel like
I'm getting there yeah, it'sinteresting, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss (22:40):
we were saying we did, we were lined up to talk
because I well, I thought youwere shooing, I thought you were
there, we were doing.
We were doing it as a lead intoParis conversation, weren't we?
Because I, yeah, so sure youwere going.
That's interesting as well,isn't it that lovely?
What was her name?
Sorry, the Irish, lucy Mulholl,lucy Mulholl, but sending you
that message because I think inthose times it's really hard to
know, it's a bit like abereavement, really, isn't?
(23:01):
It's hard to know what to sayto, but actually the power of
people reaching out and sharing,even if it doesn't kind of land
with you at the time, but butknowing it, will have an impact
and helps that process, yeah, Ithink that's it, and I think
thinking about there's it's.
Rhona Lloyd (23:17):
I think the Olympics is something that we
put on this massive pedestalrightly so, but when you get so
close to it, you do see that,like I know that I worked harder
than girls that went, but thatdoesn't matter.
I think it's just really kindof being accountable to that.
Who you are is more importantthan, yeah, what tournament you
went to and I think that takes along time to realise went to,
(23:42):
and I think that takes a longtime to to realize, and I think
probably a little bit of onus onmyself about the I'd really put
kind of my happiness andwell-being in a subjected
decision.
So, yeah, a bit of reflectionon my part about, okay, I'm, who
am I outside rugby, and doing alittle bit of soul searching on
that journey oh, it's sopowerful, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss (23:58):
I remember talking about this with Tanni
Grey-Thompson last year and Iwas reflecting on all the social
media that we were seeing asathletes post about their
celebrating their selection forOlympics or Paralympics.
And it was because of you andthat we'd had that kind of
conversation through WhatsApp oremail at the time that I'd ever
really thought about what ahard time it was, and Tanni
(24:19):
confirmed that those few weeksare so difficult as teams are
announced and inevitably so manyathletes miss out on selection,
but we almost don't think ofthat as the public because we're
just seeing all the positivesides.
Do you think that Team GB orParalympics GB or the sports
could do more to supportathletes at that time?
Rhona Lloyd (24:37):
It's hard.
I do think the athletes that doget selected.
It's incredible and as theyshould post about it everywhere
and have their moment.
I think, as an athlete that wason the other side, I muted
everybody that was anywhere nearthe Olympic Games, even if
people weren't going as aspectator.
As soon as I saw that somebodywas in Paris for an Instagram, I
was like right bye.
(24:57):
I muted them that if that camearound to bite me, because I
muted yeah, muted all myteammates and obviously was.
I was still mentioning them onwhatsapp, like I was fully in
support of them, but I didn'tneed to see every cool thing
that they were doing in Parisand they obviously understood
that.
But then I was catching up withone of them on the phone a
couple weeks ago and she wastelling them about her holiday
and I was like, oh, I didn'tknow you were there.
And she was like, have you notseen anything that I've posted
(25:19):
on Instagram?
And I was like, oh god, she'sstill muted.
I forgot to unmute her.
I was like a pretty good friend, but yeah, I think it's to be
honest.
Can team GB do more?
I'm not sure.
Like they have to celebrate thepowers that be.
I probably do think that.
So I do from a personalperspective.
It was really hard going intotraining after, but it was
(25:39):
necessary because of in case itwas an injury, that I had to be
ready.
But we and GB were playingagainst.
They were playing againstIreland and Australia in their
pool stages and girls thathadn't been selected had been
given.
We've got like yellow shirtswith a target on them for when
we were being Australia, andthen there was like green shirts
for when we're being Ireland,like there was things like that
(26:01):
that I think added a sting to it.
That was necessary and yeah, wefed back and I think that'll be
well.
It won't happen again.
So, yeah, I think it's moreprobably individual programs
just making, making that as bestit can be.
And even when you're in thosetrade-ins after selection,
there's cases with you thespooks arriving every day that
aren't for you there, for usthat arrive every day that are
(26:22):
for you leggings, like it's.
There is just so many thingsthat add to the sting.
While you're trying to be agood teammate, while your your
kind of dreams are crashing down, you're trying not to cry in
front of everybody, like it's.
It's very difficult actually.
Sue Anstiss (26:35):
I went to Canada for a month during the Olympics
and being on a different timezone, I think was was huge yeah,
yeah and I think, yeah, Iremember talking to Mohan about
the similar piece for the WorldCup and I think she similarly
left the country.
Uh, I've had a couple of a fewconversations with athletes that
I'm thinking again of.
Yeah, just go to a.
Go to a different continent ordifferent time zone, I think is
(26:58):
the key.
Yeah, and where do things standwith you with sevens now?
Is that chapter completelyclosed for you?
Rhona Lloyd (27:04):
yes, and I think I will play sevens again, but not
don't think I'll play for GBagain.
The yeah, the sevens program'sin quite a delicate position at
the moment.
They've lost their funding.
So yeah, I'm saying I won'tplay.
I don't actually know theopportunity will be to play
there.
I know that that programme isthey're fighting a lot at the
moment to keep it alive.
(27:24):
But yeah, I do love playingsevens.
I've always loved playingsevens.
So for that I think I'd love togo and play abroad, in Japan or
Hong Kong or something likethat, but that it definitely
feels a couple of years down theline.
So books not Book's, notcompletely shut on sevens, but
yeah, definitely on serioussevens and serious sevens like
that.
Sue Anstiss (27:43):
And we alluded earlier to the huge progress
we've seen with the Scottishwomen's team and professionalism
and the introduction of thosecontracts.
So can you share what impactit's had for you personally in
your day-to-day life as anathlete?
Rhona Lloyd (27:55):
the professional contract- yeah, well, I think
it's been everything really LikeI'm now a professional athlete
and that's that's all that I do,which is honestly so
mind-blowing.
When I was younger I used to.
I had a lot of injuries.
I had, yeah, like two shoulderoperations in two seasons and I
just kind of felt like I wasalways injured and actually
touch wood.
But since going professionalI've I've not found that and I
think it's just having that timeto recover and it's not
(28:18):
actually that we train more.
We do train a little bit more.
The difference is that you'renot going to train and after
working an eight-hour shiftsomewhere, it's you're just
doing your training that day.
So it really is the time forrecovery.
That's.
That's made all the difference.
And yeah, when I look back atespecially when I was at
Loughborough, there was a whileI was working this job I was
(28:38):
cleaning the tennis courts atLoughborough, started 5am,
finish at 2pm.
I'd go straight to the gym.
Our gym session started at 2pm.
It'd be the gym two till four.
Then I'd go home, get somedinner, come back in and we'd be
training from, yeah, maybe likesix till nine pm and we'd do
that back to back for days andwe'd never do that now I don't
know how I did.
(28:59):
I guess that is the differenceand that is what life once
looked like, and now it lookslike, yeah, getting enough sleep
, eating right, being able to tojust really focus on on rugby
and analysis and recovering.
Sue Anstiss (29:09):
That's so interesting, isn't it?
That it is.
You're right, it is sleep andrest and recovery isn't
necessarily the the time to liftmore weights or run more or all
those things.
It's the whole package't it,that keeps you as a healthy,
performing athlete.
And I wanted to talk to you alittle bit about the Scottish
squad, because from the outsideit looks like this fabulous,
close-knit group and I've alwaysthought I think I mentioned it
(29:31):
sometime.
I was interviewed by someonerecently about what squad would
you want to be in, and if I hadany choice, I think I'd want to
be in the Scottish squad.
That's the right answer.
Don't tell the red roses that,but I think I want to be because
I just want to be in that group.
I want to be with all thoseamazing.
So is the bond as strong as itlooks like it is from the
outside?
Rhona Lloyd (29:47):
no, absolutely I think that is yeah, it's.
We're so, so lucky.
I can't, really can't get overhow lucky I am to live this life
but actually to get to do itwith my, my absolute best
friends, and I think that's aconsequence of a lot of us came
through the pathway together andalso a consequence of we've
we've been through some reallydifficult things as as a squad.
Four years ago, um, we, we losta teammate, siobhan Cathigan,
(30:11):
and yeah, we, we went throughthat as a squad.
It happened just after a tourthat we'd been on.
So there's yeah.
And then Emma Wasso obviouslybeen unwell last year.
She's on the mend big time nowand is hopefully going to be
back in the Scotland squad soon.
But we always talk about usbeing trauma bonded, but
sometimes I think we're actuallya little bit trauma bonded, but
(30:32):
no, there's a lot of amazinggirls in the squad and, yeah,
we're all so proud to representScotland and get to be together.
So, yeah, I feel so lucky.
Sue Anstiss (30:41):
That's lovely to hear.
I was going to ask you aboutboth of those issues and
challenges and and the impactit's had for you, both as
players on pitch but also offthe pitch, and as individuals
too yeah, no, it has beenmassively challenging, I think,
especially like this this pastseason with Emma.
Rhona Lloyd (31:00):
Yeah, I'm one of her best, she's one of my best
friends and it was very hard tofocus on rugby when I think when
a friend gets ill in the waythat Emma did, emma had a tumour
and it has been removed now andshe's making a full recovery.
For anybody that doesn't knowher story, but when things like
that happen, you really realisethat there's more to life than
(31:21):
rugby.
I think the game just feels soinsignificant and I found it
really hard actually to performduring that time because it felt
a little bit meaninglesscompared to what was going on
with my friends.
So, yeah, it's been challengingand I think it can be
challenging to perform as anathlete.
We always put pressure onourselves to be the best every
(31:41):
single week, and definitely thispast we always put pressure on
ourselves to kind of be the bestevery single week and
definitely this past season.
I think I've had to accept thatactually you can't be at the
peak of your performance all thetime, that you're going to have
dips if that's due to injury,to physical things, to, yeah,
your mental health and thingshappening off pitch.
But I guess, riding that waveand yeah, fortunately Emma's,
yeah, we'll hopefully see her ina Scotland squad very soon, um,
(32:04):
I've got absolutely no doubt.
So that'll really feel like afull journey moment once when
she's back out with us.
Sue Anstiss (32:09):
And in terms of WXV so a relatively new global
tournament and Scotland won thesecond tier of the competition
in 2023.
So how has that shaped yourconfidence as a team?
Rhona Lloyd (32:21):
so we've talked about that lovely bonded, united
group, but in terms of playingas a team and success, so that
was huge and I think, as I said,that the group's really united
and there's a lot of us thatwere capped within the same
period around the season that Iwas and that we've all come
through together.
And yeah, I played seven gamesfor Scotland before I won a game
.
We we won our first Six Nationsgame in seven years.
(32:44):
During my second season, wequalified for our first World
Cup in 12 years.
For the last World Cup, wereally did go through a lot of
losses and I think to win thatWXE tournament, it was the first
silverware that Scotland hadwon in.
I think it was 22 years sinceScotland had won anything.
It really felt kind of like,okay, we've, scotland women,
(33:08):
we're a different team.
Now we've really moved in adifferent direction and I think
people talk about a lot ininternational sport like leaving
the shirt in a better place andI think winning that WXV
tournament.
It really felt like okay, we've, we've done that, we've really
made strides in the rightdirection and yeah, it was.
It was incredible, like thattournament in South Africa, it
was one of the best times of mylife.
I think we had an amazing timeoff pitch.
We performed on the pitch andyeah, tours.
(33:30):
You always say the best toursare the one that you were
successful on that.
That was an amazing time and,yeah, we had our when we were
out there.
Our last game was on the Fridayand we didn't have flights home
till the Monday, so it was avery good last weekend as well.
Sue Anstiss (33:42):
Proper bonding there yes, Along with your rugby
and academics, you've also gotquite a creative musical side.
You played bagpipes, ukuleleand the guitar as well, I
believe.
So how important is it for youto have those interests outside
of rugby.
Rhona Lloyd (33:56):
Yeah, I think so important the ukulele we always
take away on tour and we willwrite songs or or sing songs on
the bus and stuff.
It's yeah, it's just a nice wayto bring people together.
I think, through through a bitof music and, yeah, the bagpipes
, the I'm I think I'm just soproud to be Scottish, basically,
but I thought, well, I have tolearn them.
So, yeah, I'm very much on theI'm, absolutely cannot play the
(34:18):
bagpipes yet we're very, verymuch on the journey we're
getting there.
I think I probably need somelessons.
I've been trying to teachmyself but I've hit a bit of a
wall.
So if there's anybody bagpiperslistening that might be able to
help me out, definitely give mea message.
Sue Anstiss (34:30):
There must be.
Surely there has to be, doesn'tthere?
Bagpipe tutors.
Rhona Lloyd (34:39):
Yeah, looking last season when I was struggling a
bit since the Olympics election,I really reflected on I need to
have other things going on inmy life and actually challenging
yourself in different ways,learning an instrument.
It's a good way to do that andyou've been walking as well.
Sue Anstiss (34:51):
You've been out, haven't you?
Yeah, I looked at you then youfrowned no, I have.
Rhona Lloyd (34:55):
I went on um, it was basically went on a
pilgrimage, but the Camino deSantiago, if anybody's heard of
it, and yeah, I did this liketwo week walking holiday.
I get through through ruralFrance.
It was.
It was absolutely amazing.
Yeah, there's there's like aTikTok trend.
That's like your unemployedfriend on a Tuesday and I
honestly think that is mesometimes when I talk about my
life walking through ruralFrance.
(35:16):
But no, basically I had acouple weeks off between seasons
and I wanted to do this forages and kind of always thought
I'll do it after rugby, but Ithought kind of why not do a
little bit of it now?
And so the walking total isabout 10 weeks.
I only did two weeks, obviouslydidn't have much more time than
that, but it was honestly soamazing and inspiring to be.
(35:37):
I was in a situation.
I did it on my own, so wasn'tin loads of new people.
I felt so disconnected fromrugby but really in like the
nicest way possible, peoplethere would say, oh, like you do
sport, what do you do?
I would say I play rugby andthen that would be it.
There would be no more aboutkind of what that looks like,
even though outside rugby.
That's.
It's my absolute life.
Yeah, I think that was a reallybig step in kind of that
(35:59):
processing of not going to theOlympics.
Actually, I think just havingtwo weeks to be disconnected
from rugby to think about kindof what I want my life to look
like and who I want to be, yeahit was amazing.
I really recommend that anybodydoes it Lovely.
Sue Anstiss (36:13):
It's on my bucket list too at some point.
It was amazing, and you and Ifirst met through the Women's
Sport Trust Unlocked programmeback in 2020.
It does feel like a while ago,and you were co-hosting the
Brilliant Women who Sportpodcast with Sarah Bonner, so
are you still involved with thatnow?
Is podcasting or broadcastingsomething you'd like to do more
of in the future?
Rhona Lloyd (36:33):
Yes, definitely We've taken a little break from
the podcast, just in terms ofour our schedules with rugby.
We're making a little bitdifficult, but we're actually
we're hosting our first liveevent at the end of summer oh,
brilliant, before we go away,which I'm yeah, I'm definitely
gonna chew your ear off about,certainly to this but, yeah,
we're.
We're both still so, sopassionate about the podcast.
It's just trying to find theright time has proved a little
(36:55):
bit difficult, but yeah, I thinkjust invest in more time and
things outside rugby and I, whenI was doing the podcast I don't
know if you feel the same, butI would always feel like at the
end of a conversation, I wouldfeel so inspired or that I was
thinking about somethingdifferently.
And yeah, you can really justlearn so much from different
people's journeys and I justlove that about it it's the
(37:15):
ultimate privilege, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss (37:16):
I was reflecting on it this weekend with somebody,
but it is the um and I guess youcan listen to podcasts and I do
listen to a lot of podcasts butthere's something about
preparing the questions,researching the person and then
being in the con.
It's like what a joy to be ableto just ask somebody anything
you want to ask about and,exactly as you say, I come away.
Rhona Lloyd (37:33):
I'm always just so affected and impacted by the
conversations that we have yeah,no, I absolutely felt the same,
but it's, we definitely did itbecause we were like, well, we
want to share these journeys ofwomen in sport, but then we
would just leave everyconversation being like god,
that was for us, that wasamazing, which was really cool
and obviously we've got therugby world cup this month and
the first lions tour on thehorizon in 2027.
Sue Anstiss (37:56):
You're playing future, still full of
opportunity, and you said youhope to play for a few more
years.
But if you could look back nowand pick a moment or a game that
really stands out for you asthe most memorable, what would
that be?
Rhona Lloyd (38:10):
I think one tournament that really sticks in
my head was we did ToulouseSevens with Scotland and at that
time Scotland weren't in theWorld Series, so we were an
invitational team and we had ourfirst training session on the
Tuesday and the tournament wasthe Friday, saturday, sunday and
it was over 12 teams andhistorically the invitational
(38:31):
team always comes 12.
But we came 9th that tournamentand we didn't have much time
together but we did have 12people that were we were best
friends off it.
We worked so hard for eachother and we just backed each
other up and we had this amazingculture and I really think
that's what gave us success inthat tournament like we had no
right to win one game there,never mind to.
(38:53):
We must have won two games tofinish ninth.
And I think I'm so passionateabout team culture and how
important that is, and I thinkthat tournament just really
epitomized that and we, we beatEngland, we beat South Africa to
to finish ninth and yeah, itwas just such, an such an
amazing memory.
(39:13):
And I think there's also, whenthere's there's no pressure on
your back, when everybody'sexpecting you to come 12, I
think then you can just playwith such freedom and I think
it's that probably the key tosport is figuring out how to
feel like that, even when thereis pressure on your back, which
I've not quite cracked yet.
Sue Anstiss (39:29):
So I love that.
I love that that's your.
That's so memorable for youthat I, if I'd have picked one
for you, it wouldn't have beenthat.
So that's kind of so nice thatthat does still resonate and
have so much impact yeah, no, itwas.
Rhona Lloyd (39:40):
That was such an amazing time and it was actually
it was the end of that summerthat Scotland Sevens was.
It was cut because it became aGD program, which was a massive
step in the right direction.
But when I look back at thatsummer it's like we did not know
, kind of how special that timewould have been.
Sue Anstiss (39:54):
It's only now looking back but we can say that
because the program doesn'texist anymore and just finally,
and we have alluded to this alittle bit earlier on but what
does success look like for youtoday, I wonder?
Can I have, and how it'schanged since we first met five
years ago?
Rhona Lloyd (40:07):
yeah, I think success for me now is is
definitely enjoying what I do.
I think that's a big focus thatI have right now and yeah, it's
been a massive journey to getto that point.
I think this past season whereI was, I was really not enjoying
rugby, like really not enjoyingplaying, not looking forward to
games, and that was the firsttime that I ever felt like I was
(40:28):
playing because somebody waspaying me to play, not because I
loved playing and not because Iwas choosing to play.
And yeah, I think I'mdefinitely getting that love for
the game back and it's been abig challenge to get there.
But I think now, going into thenext couple of seasons, my goal
is to enjoy it and definitelywhen I am enjoying rugby, that's
(40:50):
when I'm playing my best.
So I guess I'm focusing a lotmore on me as a person rather
than me as a player right now.
And that's definitely been afallout of not getting selected
to the olympics and kind ofhaving to re-evaluate what
success meant for me, becausesuccess for me was always going
to be going to the olympic games.
So not doing that like have Ibeen unsuccessful, yes, in that
journey, but it doesn't meanthat I need to lose my sense of
(41:12):
self, which I definitely did fora couple months.
So, yeah, right now it's reallycliched, but just enjoying what
I do is what success looks likeand yeah, I think if I focus on
that, then the performancelooks after itself.
Sue Anstiss (41:29):
It was so lovely to finally talk to Rona for the
podcast after we've beendiscussing it for such a long
time.
If you'd like to hear fromother trailblazers in rugby,
previous guests on the GameChangers have included the likes
of Sue Day, mo Hunt, maggieAlfonsi, jodie Owensley, lisa
O'Keefe, shauna Brown, emmaMitchell, sarah Hunter and male
(41:51):
ally Hugo Monnier.
There are over 200 episodes ofthe Game Changers that are free
to listen to on all podcastplatforms or from our website at
fearlesswomencouk.
Along with elite athletes,guests include coaches,
entrepreneurs, broadcasters,scientists, journalists and CEOs
(42:11):
all women who are changing thegame in sport Changing the Game
in Sport.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, that's
also where you can find outmore about the Women's Sport
Collective, an inclusivecommunity for all women working
in sport.
We now have over 13,000 membersacross the world, so please do
come and join us.
The whole of my book Game On theUnstoppable Rise of Women's
(42:34):
Sport is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Every episode of series 13 isme reading a chapter of the book
.
Thank you once again to SportEngland for backing the Game
Changers and the Women's SportCollective with a National
Lottery Award, and also thanksto Sam Walker at what Goes On
Media, who does such anexcellent job as our executive
(42:55):
producer.
Thank you also to my brilliantcolleague at Fearless Women,
kate Hannan.
You can find the Game Changerspodcast on all the regular
platforms, so please do followus now to ensure you don't miss
out on future episodes.
Do come and say hello on socialmedia, but you'll find me on
(43:15):
LinkedIn and Instagram at SueAnstis, the Game Changers
fearless women in sport.
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