August 19, 2025 • 44 mins
Our guest on The Game Changers today is Sally Horrox, Chief of Women’s Rugby at World Rugby.
Sally has an incredible track record in transforming women’s sports. A former non-executive director of England Netball, advisor the FA, UEFA and other international football federations, Sally played a leading role in the creation of the Netball Super League AND the FA Women’s Super League.
An expert in the professional and commercial development of women’s sport, Sally has worked internationally on major projects in women's football, tennis and netball, understanding first-hand how to create and develop professional leagues, major events and commercial partnerships.
At World Rugby Sally leads the Women in Rugby team, collaborating with colleagues across the sport to accelerate women in rugby on, and off the field.
In this fascinating hour we explore what it takes to truly accelerate progress for women’s rugby – and women’s sport – worldwide, from creating professional pathways to building commercial success and driving global participation.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sue Anstiss (00:03):
Hello and welcome to The Game Changers the podcast
, where I speak to trailblazingwomen in sport, the leaders,
pioneers and rule breakers whoare reshaping the world of sport
for future generations.
Before we start, I'd like totake a moment to thank our
partner, Sport England, whosupport The Game Changers
podcast with a National LotteryAward.
My guest today is Sally Horrox,Chief of Women's Rugby at World
(00:30):
Rugby.
Sally has an incredible trackrecord in transforming women's
sports.
A former non-executive directorof England Netball, advisor to
the FA, uefa and otherinternational football
federations, Sally played aleading role in the creation of
the Netball Super League and theFA Women's Super League.
An expert in the professionaland commercial development of
(00:52):
women's sport, Sally's workedinternationally on major
projects in football, tennis andnetball, understanding
first-hand how to create anddevelop professional leagues,
major events and commercialpartnerships.
At World Rugby, Sally leads thewomen in rugby team,
(01:12):
collaborating with colleaguesacross the world to accelerate
women in rugby on and off thefield.
So, Sally, you started yourcareer as a solicitor.
In fact, you worked for 10years in law and business before
transitioning into sport.
So what led you to leave acareer in commercial law to move
across into sport?
Sally Horrox (01:33):
Well, working as a lawyer was a great grounding
when I think back now to theexperience and the skills I
developed over those 10 years.
First with a big internationallaw firm it was DLA Piper that I
worked with.
I think about the academicrigor, the discipline, the
problem solving, some of which Iwas good at, some of which
(01:55):
frustrated the heck out of me.
I have quite an entrepreneurialstreak and a short attention
span at times.
I'm from the north of England,I'm from Lancashire originally.
I started working with DLAPiper in Manchester, but then
that took me overseas and ittook me to Hong Kong.
So not only did I get a goodtraining, I got great experience
(02:19):
, I got the chance to travel.
Some of those skills I stilluse today in my work the
commercial work around legalcontracting, broadcast deals,
commercial deals, thisprofessional and commercial
development of women's sport.
But big shout out to thatparticular law firm.
They also supported me in mynetball career as well, so they
allowed me the time off to play.
(02:39):
They supported my transition.
They supported my transition.
It also sort of gave me thechance to look at netball
overseas.
So I saw what was going on inAustralia and in New Zealand,
two countries that we traveledto a lot and I saw Friday night
TV.
The netballers were on thetelly on a Friday night.
The leagues were streets aheadfrom where we were in the UK.
(03:04):
So that piqued my interest.
So the skills I developed gaveme a foundation.
The travel gave me sort of anoutside-in look into sport
around the world.
If we sort of fast forward aslottery funding came into the UK
, into England, and I started orretired from playing netball,
(03:24):
eventually I thought, ah, I canuse these legal and business
skills and I can transfer overat a time when those were
required as a lot of sports inthe UK were making that
transition from amateur tosemi-pro to pro.
But I should also just mentionthat the business career wasn't
just in a law firm environment.
I joined a startup, legalbusiness consultancy, which we
(03:46):
grew from a city-based legaloperation to a big international
business that we sold to HayesPLC.
And that experience of runninga business, sales, business
development, grooming a businessfor sale, understanding how to
lead, understanding how tomanage people, a business for
sale, understanding how to lead,understanding how to manage
(04:07):
people that, combined with thelegal skills, probably set me up
more than I ever imagined forthe later stages of my career.
Sue Anstiss (04:12):
You mentioned very casually there your netball
career and I know you've playednetball internationally and I've
known you for a long time.
But I didn't really know thatabout you until I started
researching this.
You're obviously incrediblyhumble about your sporting
pedigree, but you played netballinternationally.
You played in the netball worldcup in 1991.
So can you tell?
Us a little bit more about yournetball career.
I've only ever obviously taughtwork with you.
Sally Horrox (04:34):
Yeah, very true.
Well, I was playing at thattime.
Well, sort of go back a littlebit further, I played at school
and then I'm quite a curiouscharacter and I quite like
trying new things.
So I then diverted, played abit of hockey, played a bit of
lacrosse, went to university andit was only in my 20s that I
came back to netball and I cameback through going to law school
(04:56):
and then, when I got placed inHong Kong, I met an amazing
coach, val Eaton, who was anex-Diamonds Aussie player who
coached Hong Kong.
So I actually ended up playinginternationally whilst I lived
in Hong Kong.
She was amazing and I just gota different level of exposure to
, as I said, international sportand the approach and the ethos
(05:18):
around the training.
I can remember playing in HongKong and then playing in the
World Championships, the WorldCup that was in Sydney.
I then ended up coming back toEngland with the law firm that I
was working with and playingfor Middlesex.
So I came back into the UK,played for Middlesex, worked my
way through, never did get afull international cap for
(05:40):
England, always ended up playingin that sort of development
squad, played some great sort ofhome international friendlies,
warm-up games but never madethat final cut.
I ended up managing a netballteam, our netball team.
That took us through the nextcycle.
I was playing under MaryBeardwood, who was my coach at
the time in Middlesex, whotransitioned to England and then
(06:02):
, when I retired as an athlete,she tapped me on the shoulder
and said how do you fancytransitioning into a leadership
role with England netball andcoming along with me to manage
the England netball team?
Sue Anstiss (06:12):
Oh, wow.
Sally Horrox (06:13):
That was how that door opened, at the same time as
lottery funding was coming in,et cetera, into the sport.
Sue Anstiss (06:19):
And, as you say, you had those roles in netball
for over 20 years.
I think you worked in a seriesof executive non, you had those
roles in Netball for over 20years.
I think you worked in a seriesof executive non-executive roles
, managing, at the start, thatEngland team for the World Cup
in New Zealand in 1999 and theCommonwealth Games in Manchester
in 2002.
So how much did that role ofworking with the players impact
the work that you've done sincethen, that you're doing now?
Sally Horrox (06:40):
Hugely If I think about the legal and business
background that I think hasgiven me that foundational base
and the credibility as I'vemoved through my career on the
professional and commercialdevelopment of sport.
Working in elite sport, right atthe cutting edge with high
performing teams and demandingleaders, brilliant, brilliant
(07:02):
coaches, fantastic athletes, hasdefinitely taught me a lot.
I mean, if you talk about driveand excellence and this sort of
relentless focus on performance, whether you take that on a
court or off a pitch, I learneda huge amount from the athletes
and from the coaches and theleadership team.
(07:22):
Also, culture you learn thatyou are part of the glue, your
behaviors, the way you act, theway you speak when you're part
of that sort of team and youlearn about how culture really
matters.
Certainly, I learned a lotabout team.
You get that culture right, youget the leadership right, that
(07:44):
team then is unstoppable.
It's remarkable how you canelevate performance, what you
can achieve when you put yourmind to it.
I've absolutely taken so muchfrom working in performance
sport across to my work now.
No doubt at all.
Sue Anstiss (08:01):
And you were also part of a team that created the
initial Netball Super League.
So can you take us back thereto 2004?
What was the kind of state ofplay?
What was the landscape like inNetball at the time?
Sally Horrox (08:13):
Well, we didn't have that sort of weekly
training environment that I nowtalk about so much and didn't
have that week in, week outdomestic competition at the
level that we felt was going tokick the game on.
And of course, I'd seen thatwhen we'd been placed in
Australia and New Zealand.
I'd seen what it was doing inthose countries.
At that stage you talk aboutmentors or leaders.
(08:35):
I was working quite closelywith Wai Tamanu, who's a fierce
Maori leader, a woman from NewZealand, ex-captain of the
Silver Films, who I'd playedagainst, and now she came over
to England and was ourperformance director and she
looked at the landscape withothers, a few of the other
leadership team, and took a viewthat we needed to create at the
(08:58):
time what was a super cup.
But yeah, at the time we were awholly amateur sport, we didn't
have a full-time trainingenvironment for athletes and we
were on that journey.
So why Tamanu in particular?
And the management team atEngland Netball recognized the
need to create that and that wasmy transition.
After 10 years as a lawyer,after playing the sport, after
(09:20):
moving into team management, Ithen took a break and had a
family.
After moving into teammanagement, I then took a break
and had a family.
We had three children in quicksuccession between 2002 and 2006
.
And that was the time that Iwas able to sort of jump off the
corporate sort of bandwagon and, with this change of
environment in the netball, getinvolved, roll my sleeves up and
(09:44):
get involved in the first stageof the establishment of the
Netball Super League.
Sue Anstiss (09:48):
And was there much resistance to it at the time, or
was it something that the sportfelt it needed?
Sally Horrox (09:53):
That's a great question because it takes me
back.
I can remember, actually, theconversations that were going on
with county netball.
At the time I was the captainof Middlesex.
I was coming out of Middlesex,transitioning and moving to this
sort of executive sportsadministration role and we had
to do a whole review of thepyramid, the structures, the
(10:14):
counties, and I can remember,you know, having a huge sense of
sort of love and all theexperience I'd got as a young
player working and playing inthat sort of county
infrastructure.
So it was tough, you know.
There was a sense of losing abit of that heritage and a bit
of that history, and thatcontinued for quite a few years.
(10:36):
The Netball Super League, asyou know, has gone through a
couple of iterations over thelast 20 years, but it was a
controversial decision at thetime but I definitely think it
was the right time to buildthose foundations.
Sue Anstiss (10:49):
And you went on to chair the Vitality Netball Super
League and you remained on themain board.
I think you remained thereuntil 2017.
So what's it like for you tohave watched that evolution, as
you say, over 20 years, to wherewe are today with Netball Super
League 2.0?0?
Sally Horrox (11:06):
well, I'm very proud of the fact that I managed
to sort of work and play andcontribute in my sport right
across from sort of amateurthrough to helping in some way
to to shape that transition,this pathway to professionalism
that the sport has been on.
(11:26):
And yeah, you're right,eventually I joined the England
Netball Board and I'm nowproudly aware I have an honorary
life member.
Sue Anstiss (11:33):
I saw that.
I saw that.
It's amazing, isn't it?
Sally Horrox (11:36):
Yeah, it's something I'm very proud of.
It made me realise as well,gave me a much broader
understanding that transitionacross of you know what it's
like to steward a sport and theresponsibility that you feel in
a sort of leadership role.
Because, whilst you know I loveplaying the game and my
(11:58):
instinct is to be around theplayers and on the pitch on the
court, you realize you knowthere's a much broader
understanding required ofgovernance, of leadership, of
what it takes to shape a sport,what it takes to connect those
pathways from participation toperformance, and there's the
economic stability of a sportthat's so sharply required as it
(12:23):
develops.
So I learned an awful lot overthose 20 years as I transitioned
through Netball Super League tochairing it.
Because chairing it was part ofmy remit on England Netball
Board.
Everyone had a responsibilityin addition to their sort of
volunteering on the board andbecause I had a commercial
background and a performancebackground, it was an obvious
(12:46):
spot for me to contribute.
But yeah, I learned a lot aboutleadership with that group and
also people's sort of deepcommitment to to the sport and
the people in it.
They really, really care Tovolunteer at that level and put
the time in that you put in.
It was quite humbling really,and it probably is a gain If you
(13:09):
talk about all these facets ofmy experience.
I got a lot out of that and Ithink it was at a relatively
young age.
I've always ended up being oneof the younger people I'm not so
young now, but I felt like acouple of good men and good
women have tapped me on theshoulder along the way and
brought me into thoseenvironments.
And the skill there islistening.
(13:31):
You've got to listen well,listen well, listen hard and try
and make good decisions thatserve the sport well.
Sue Anstiss (13:38):
And beyond being an honorary life member of England
Netball with your lovely pinbadge, are you still involved in
netball in any way today, otherthan a passionate fan?
Sally Horrox (13:47):
Great question.
I am a mother of four kids, twoof whom played a lot of netball
out of Bath.
So one of our girls is stillplaying.
So I'm there supporting, I'mthere being the driver, the
parent running around thecountry, and she loves her sport
.
And I have been involved behindthe scenes, volunteering and
(14:09):
supporting and doing a bit ofconsultancy work when I was
independent.
But also one of the things I'vehad to be conscious of as I've
developed in my career is alsoindependence, integrity and
conflict, because I've movedfrom netball into football.
I've moved from footballthrough a really interesting
time as an independent workingin a small business and doing
(14:32):
work in tennis, which wasfantastic, and now into rugby.
So you've also got to maintainyour independence and declare
conflict from time to time.
So I can't dive in with themmuch as I'd like to sometimes.
Sue Anstiss (14:47):
As you alluded to then, you then spent almost a
decade driving women's footballworking with the Football
Association, the FA.
So what was your initial remitin that role?
Sally Horrox (14:58):
Well, it was a six-week feasibility study.
It's the story of my life.
I'm quite curious.
I always like to go throughsort of doors as they open, meet
new people.
I'd met Kelly Simmons, who hasremained a firm friend and is
still on this journey in theprofessional and commercial
development of women's sport,women's football same path that
(15:20):
I'm treading in parallel.
And football made contact and Ideveloped a relationship there
because they'd seen what washappening in netball, so they'd
seen that we developed thefoundations as we moved on this
pathway to professionalism, tocreating a new league, and they
were looking in from the outside.
(15:41):
I had that conversation with acouple of leaders at the FA
Kelly was part of that and thatled to a feasibility study on
the creation of a professionalwomen's league.
You know what's the size of theprize, what's the commercial
potential for women's football?
We did that for two months in2006, 2007, I think, and then
(16:02):
that led to working for the FAover a decade, essentially A
really exciting time to come in.
You know, the brink of this newera full of potential, and it
was about creating strategiesand creating a plan to develop
and lead the commercial andprofessional development of
women's football in this country, but spearheaded by the
(16:24):
creation of what is now theWomen's Super League.
So that was the task.
Six weeks became 10 years onand off, and it was an
incredible journey and again,one of the things that I'm
incredibly proud of now when Ilook back to where that league
and competition is now in termsof its expansion and its
(16:45):
recognition as being one of theworld-leading competitions and
the fact that it's createdcareers and a professional
pathway for women, thousands ofwomen all over the world not all
down to me, by the way, but youcan just see how it unlocks
those opportunities, which isfabulous.
Sue Anstiss (17:03):
So you talked about that feasibility study in 2006
or so, but it was 2011,.
I think it was initiallycreated and then, in 2014,
expanded to two divisions.
What was the environment likein terms of at the FA versus
what you'd experienced withinthe netball super league in that
environment, with a muchdifference in terms of the the
(17:24):
environment around?
Sally Horrox (17:25):
the sport.
Well, the size and scale offootball is completely different
and I experience that now aswell in rugby, because rugby is
a, you know, a smaller sportplayed in fewer countries around
the world.
But I'd come from an all-femalesport at the time at England,
netball into sport played by menand women on a much greater
(17:48):
scale, which is quiteintimidating actually, and you
can start to doubt yourself.
I was thinking just inpreparing for our conversation.
I was reflecting on thedifferent environments in
netball versus football, versustennis and rugby.
Football taught me a hugeamount because the working
(18:12):
netball.
In a way, we'd managed to testsomething, we'd managed to pilot
something, we knew what worked.
Well, the principles stillremained the same.
So as you transferred across,you were still holding onto the
principles around creating anathlete centered competition,
something that had a long-termeconomic sustainability,
(18:32):
something that balanced the waythe investment worked behind,
building infrastructure andpathways, while still having a
sort of eye on participationright the way through from
grassroots to the elite game.
But you were just doing it on alarger scale.
You were also working with thePremier League.
You were working withprofessional men's football
(18:53):
clubs.
So you had to back yourself.
You had to have the confidencethat you knew what you were
doing.
This was tried and tested.
The model worked, but you hadto apply it in a football
setting.
But I can remember manymeetings.
You know, the difference beingI would go into meetings with
professional men's footballclubs, with leaders of skills
(19:16):
here that are relevant.
I know my stuff, I can applythose skills in this setting.
I have to be really aware ofthat and then bring these people
with me.
So it felt like a receptiveenvironment.
But you had to prove yourselfand you also had to work really
(19:37):
hard to prove the economic andbusiness case for what we were
presenting, because of the sizeand scale of the investment,
which was much greater.
Honestly, I really enjoyed that, that being held to account.
Sue Anstiss (19:50):
I was going to ask you then because you have worked
I'm going to come on to talkabout rugby, but you've worked
in many environments that arethose predominantly male
environments and what do youthink are some of those unique
challenges?
You have alluded a bit to thatand being in those rooms and
maybe needing to presentyourself differently, but how
have you personally navigatedthose challenges?
Sally Horrox (20:10):
I think you have to be very aware of the room
that you're going into and theaudience that you are speaking
to, and I don't think that'salways a male-female issue.
I mean, it's a fair point,having worked in male-dominated
environments, in law firms aswell as in business, as in sport
(20:32):
.
But I think you in my case Ican only speak for myself have
to be acutely aware of theproblem that you're trying to
solve and the different people'sperspective in the rooms, and I
suppose that's a skill that I'mvery conscious of working to
hone over the years.
So if we were going into a room, into a predominantly male room
(20:56):
of leaders in men'sprofessional football clubs,
you'd be working out, okay,what's in it for them.
If they're trying to build fanbase, if they're trying to
attract more women into the game, if they want to enhance
reputation, if they want topresent the sport differently,
how can we work in partnershiptogether to do that?
(21:17):
So that's always been myapproach to those environments.
And then just one further caveatto that sometimes you do come
across people who are justobstinate, have a different
point of view or just do notunderstand your perspective, and
that's difficult and I alwaysretreat to I'm a natural
(21:42):
optimist my glasses mostly halffull a position of right.
I need to educate, I need toexplain, I need to take this
person with me and on the wholeit served me well.
But sometimes you just hit abrick wall and that has happened
from time to time and then whatI've always done is just take
(22:03):
myself out of the room, out ofthe situation.
And this is where resiliencecomes in and maybe this is where
performance, sport, comes in.
You think right, I failed here,Don't take personal slight.
In that situation, I havefailed to be able to persuade or
influence whoever that personis.
So I'll go away, try and breakit down and come back at it
(22:24):
again from a differentperspective.
But I rarely give up andthere's usually a partnership, a
compromise position that youcan reach.
You know it is exhausting fromtime to time.
Sue Anstiss (22:35):
I love that approach, though there is that
whole collaboration, win-win,not needing to dominate, for
someone else to lose in orderfor you to win a point, and I
think that's yeah.
You definitely see a change inleadership, you hope, moving
forwards.
I'm going to go back to whenyou were at the FA.
I know a lot of your work wasaround the new commercial
strategy for the women's game,so separating and restructuring
(22:59):
commercial and media rights toraise profile and increase the
investment.
As you look back now from whereyou were to where we are today,
is it where you thought itwould get to in terms of that
commercial investment and thefunding that we've had with
Broadcast Rights for WSL?
Sally Horrox (23:14):
Yes, it is.
I think one of the themes to mysort of career experience and I
suppose my approach is that Iwill always try to look forward
10 or 20 years hence, alwaysbecause sport works in
performance cycles, it works inOlympic cycles, it works in
World Cup cycles and myexperience of building a
(23:36):
business before I shifted intonetball and then onwards into
football and beyond was that youreally need a clear goal, a
clear plan and you need to workthrough growth cycles to achieve
your end goal.
You often have to pivot alongthe way.
You might acquire along the wayand that's very much the
approach I had, probably innetball.
(23:57):
It was too early, it was reallyfoundational stages and you can
see where netball is moving nowon that more commercial,
professional pathway.
But in football, part of thatfeasibility initially the study
we did, initially the goal thatI set was for us to accelerate
development over a decade tobeat the Brown Bundesliga, which
(24:18):
was 21 years mature at thatstage.
So we were trying to get in 10years or certainly I was in 10
years what the Bundesliga hadachieved in 21 or 22 at the time
and I reckon we got there ineight against our pathway with
that expansion plan as youdescribed.
But then beyond that, as Imoved out of the FA, one of the
(24:40):
last things I can remember sortof pitching to the board, the
management team with Kelly, wasthat we should bid for the
women's Euros, to bring thewomen's Euros in now.
That was the stage that I thenexited and moved out to work
independently, went to work, dosome work for UEFA and a little
bit for FIFA, and then thetransition to rugby.
But there was always thatforward view of where it could
(25:02):
go to next.
And for me when I looked at thevaluation I would always look
at you know, what's thevaluation here?
What's the valuation of thisbook?
What's the size, the commercialpotential of it?
I always benchmark that againstthe full valuation of what
men's football was.
So even if we were to take 5%,10%, 15%, 20% of a valuation, it
(25:25):
would be a stellar valuationcompared to where we were and I
had confidence in the size ofthe audience, the size of the
market, all of the green shoots,that sort of first stage that
we were seeing.
So even when I exited aftersort of the hands-on piece of
leading that stage ofdevelopment, in my mind you know
, it had a stellar opportunityin front of it, and that's
(25:48):
clearly been taken on by somegreat leaders, since I moved to
one side.
Sue Anstiss (25:54):
And it was three years ago.
Was it really three years agothat you joined World Rugby as
Chief of Women's Rugby?
That seems to have come veryquickly.
So what attracted you to thatrole?
What were you doing at the timeand why did you make that shift
across to that fantastic role?
Sally Horrox (26:08):
Well, covid had something to do with it.
That was a time when we allprobably, I'm sure, sat back and
had a rethink about many thingsin our life.
Just before COVID, myself and awonderful woman, sally Hancock,
and I had you know I'd lovedthe time in football.
I'd taken the work in Englandto another level, acting as a
(26:30):
sort of an expert and advisor toUEFA.
So I'd started to get a muchbroader European view of
football, with Bundesliga, withSerie A, b&g and Italy working
on growth strategies aroundEurope.
And Sally and I had decidedthat we would together create a
women's sport and commercialconsultancy so that we could be
(26:51):
independent and we could have abit of fun and we could work in
other sports, and it wasfantastic.
But then COVID hit, so probablyour time together got cut short
.
But I have no regrets.
We had the best time and someof the clients that we work with
we work with the IOC, we workwith Nissan, we work with Sky
and we work with World Rugby Iin COVID was very much based at
(27:16):
home and had the opportunity towork on a project with World
Rugby, who were also looking atthe pathway to professionalism.
So here we go again, anotherfeasibility study.
It wasn't quite as focused onthe creation of a league or
competition, but it was focusedon the professional development
of women's rugby and, in anutshell, you know that work was
(27:39):
fantastic.
I really enjoyed doing it.
I did it also in partnershipwith another consultancy, portas
Consulting, who are now CAA,and we did a wonderful piece of
work, met some great people inworld rugby.
A lot is to do with the people.
Some great people For me at thetime a very impressive chief
executive, alan Gilpin, whopainted a picture of a vision
(28:01):
for growth and ambition and thatled to the role that I now
perform.
There was a great woman calledKatie Sadlier who was in a
general manager role for women'srugby at the time.
She took on a job as the chiefexecutive of Commonwealth Games,
which is great.
It's always great to see peoplestepping up and moving through.
But women's rugby at the timeshe took on a job as the chief
executive of Commonwealth Games,which is great.
It's always great to see peoplestepping up and moving through.
Sue Anstiss (28:21):
I should just say she's a lovely guest on the Game
Changers.
I can't remember what series itis, but she was a lovely guest
on the Game Changers podcast too.
Sally Horrox (28:27):
Fantastic.
So there's a bit of time andplace to all of these moves.
There's the curiosity, there'sthe opportunity, but there's a
little bit of time and place.
You do create your own luck.
I think we've done a greatpiece of work for World Rugby,
but I can remember Alan sayingwell, here it is, here's the
study, here's the report, here'sthe pathway.
Normally you then, or sometimeswhen you're advising people,
(28:51):
then file that away and put itin the bottom drawer.
And this was very much right.
Here you go If you're going tocome into this post and,
relatively speaking, work from ablank sheet of paper in a new
elevated role which sits at thetop table the chief of women's
rugby role.
So now it's your responsibilityfor delivering it.
So that's how it came about Alot of freedom to really shape
(29:15):
something new.
And, by the way, I love rugby.
I'm a massive fan.
I've come from a family wherewe love it and our children play
it, so it's great again to bepart of that community.
Sue Anstiss (29:28):
And you're working across 130, I think, member
unions, which sounds like anenormous challenge, especially,
I guess, when you've come fromplaces in sports where it may be
one national governing body,one country almost, or home
nations.
But can you tell us a bit moreabout how you go about creating
unity within your role acrossthe sport when you're
(29:48):
recognising there are so manyregional differences?
Sally Horrox (29:52):
Well, one size doesn't fit all.
I mean, that's the obviouscomment.
I'm in America at the moment.
I'm sort of sitting here in NewYork just watch them play Fiji.
You know, Fiji is not likeFrance, France is not like the
USA, it's not like Madagascar.
So you've got huge differencesin size and scale of development
and you have to remember that.
(30:12):
Remember that.
And in culture, frankly as well, we're dealing with economic
challenges, You're dealing withwar zones and conflict in some
areas of the world, You'redealing with gender-based
violence, and this is just someof the issues you deal with off
the pitch.
So you've got to be reallyacutely aware of that in all
your dealings.
Again, just the listening ear isso important so that you
(30:36):
understand what their challengesare and what they want from you
as an international federation.
It's wildly different actually,from country to country and you
should never assume that youknow what role you're going to
play.
They may ask something verydifferent of you.
And then the other point isprobably collaboration, not
control.
(30:56):
And then the other point isprobably collaboration, not
control, because the power, Ithink and I am on a steep
learning curve here in rugby, asyou say, across 133 unions is
understanding, sort of theinsight and the shared
connections between thosecountries.
If you can build the insightand you can build the
connections, they can reallylearn from each other.
(31:19):
So, yes, we have a sort offunding relationship with unions
.
We make grants and we makeawards and we engage in
partnership on programs andcompetitions around the world.
But if you actually sit downand you share insights and you
collaborate and you connectparticularly the women who are
leading the sport in thisdifferent country it's
remarkable how you see thisstronger, sustainable union
(31:43):
developing and their growthplans.
And then the third point I'dmake is you have to be pretty
realistic and pragmatic aboutwhat can be achieved and what
your role is and you really canhelp and make a difference.
But there's no point trying tosort of boil the ocean here, I
found, if you can agree on twoor three initiatives where you
(32:03):
can really partner and whatwe've done around the World Cup.
We've created these regionalsummits for women's rugby.
We've pulled together now 50unions 70 unions, I think,
across three regions into smallclusters where they can all talk
to and get to know each otherand they're all now building.
I think we've got over 50growth plans now around the
world for women's rugby, butthey have built them themselves
(32:25):
from ground up.
We're not coming in sort ofwith a helicopter view imposing
that, and then we'll try andalign our support behind and
alongside that.
Sue Anstiss (32:34):
What is the potential for growth with
women's rugby right now, do youfeel?
Sally Horrox (32:39):
So you can answer that from many different angles.
But if you take participation,at the moment, those unions I've
just talked about have just putall their heads together to
come up with what they'recalling the Participation Growth
Manifesto or a growthcommitment, and you'll see this
around the World Cup this summer, as we took the view.
Well, let's listen to them.
(33:01):
This is not for us.
By the way, I'm all in favour.
I've worked with FIFA and UEFAand there's great commitments
for doubling and tripling thesize of the women's game.
I'm absolutely behind that, butrather than us impose it from
above, certainly from myperspective, we needed to
understand the appetite from thebase up.
So from a participation pointof view, I think there's huge
(33:24):
potential and if you think aboutthe game we have the sevens
game, which actually is aspearhead for growth in women's
rugby it's easier to get thenumbers.
It's easier to get in countriesthat don't perhaps have the
economic base or the number ofgirls or women coming through.
It's an easier game to get holdof and have a go at.
There's T1 rugby as well.
(33:46):
So participation for girls istracking faster than any other
growth segment in the sport andit's tracking at sort of.
I think we're multiplying iteight to 10% growth per annum.
So if it continues at that, itwill go from being women are 25%
of the playing base.
We'll hit over 30, 33% overthis next cycle.
(34:07):
So why can't it become equityand gender numbers 50, 50 over
time?
We haven't got that commitmentyet, but we've certainly got
that 10% year-on-year growth.
And then, at the other end ofthe sport, in terms of the
professional and commercialdevelopment, there's huge
appetite and that's probablywhere, again, because of my
(34:29):
experience, a lot of my focus isit's on visibility, it's on
audience build and it's onaudience build and it's on that
world-class world cups, theplatform that will be created
this summer with rugby world cup2025, which, in my opinion,
will be that pivot point, in thesame way that 2019 for the fifa
women's world cup in france was.
(34:49):
And then this pathway toprofessionalism, the work we're
doing on investment, on resreshaping, on supporting unions
to really take advantage of youknow, how they develop their
leagues and competitions and theprofessional game.
I think it's going to providehuge opportunity and growth.
And I sit here, obviously inAmerica, saying that to you,
having spent the last week atfundraising dinners, sold out
(35:12):
stadiums, conversations andmeetings with Alona Ma, who is
obviously working in partnershipwith USA Rugby to grow the game
.
We go to the United Nationstomorrow to talk on the same
topic, also on sport fordevelopment and how it changes
women and girls' lives, inpartnership with Child Fund.
But these are all the aspectsto building a stronger, more
(35:33):
powerful sport and rugby.
You know rugby itself is doinga great job.
You know more power to itselbow.
We just need to keep workingtogether.
Sue Anstiss (35:42):
And I would say, for more details of the Women's
Rugby World Cup.
I would recommend people listento the brilliant episode with
your colleague, sarah Massey,who's the Managing Director for
the Women's Rugby World Cup 2025.
And I think that was in thelast series, so series 19.
But you do seem to be at everysports industry event I have
attended in the last few months,so doing a huge amount of work
for advocacy for women's rugbyand the women's rugby World Cup.
(36:05):
So I guess one of my questionsis how do you I think I did ask
you this last time I saw you howdid you manage to fit all that
in and and do all you're doingtoo?
It does feel not.
How do you not get overwhelmed?
But it does feel like it's akind of huge role and a
figurehead piece that you've got, as well as collaborating and
leading, as you've said.
Sally Horrox (36:24):
Well, I do take the advocacy piece really
seriously and, I suppose, made areally intentional decision to
do that and I have the supportof my colleagues because
obviously I have my own workplan.
I have KPIs and performanceindicators and targets to hit.
We all in a corporateenvironment, in a modern sports
(36:47):
business, you have to be heldaccountable for what you are
tasked with delivering and themoney that you're spending,
frankly as well.
Are you doing the right thingfor the sport?
Are you spending your time inthe right places?
And we've agreed thatvisibility and advocacy at the
right time in the right placesis hugely important because we
are still at a relatively earlystage in rugby 40 years old, I
(37:13):
think it's 40.
We're in our 10th edition ofthe World Cup this year.
So, choosing to be on thoseplatforms, preparing well it's a
job of work if you're going todo it properly, to make sure, as
you said, with Sarah Massey,who is a brilliant leader and is
doing a fabulous job and ispart of the management team that
(37:35):
I'm part of.
It's a really important part ofwhat we do because it raises
profile, it changes perceptions,it puts us on the international
stage, it unlocks investment.
A lot of the work is around ourbrand partnerships.
I sit alongside our brandpartners.
You're in sales mode, you're inbusiness development mode, day
(37:56):
in, day out.
So the support of the businessis hugely important.
And on a personal level, I havea fantastic husband and four
great kids and I honestlycouldn't do what I do if he
wasn't rock solid.
He's a massive sports fan andhe's a teacher and a rugby coach
(38:16):
and he is very much HQhome-based, whereas I am on the
road a lot of the time.
But our relationship and ourfamily life has been sort of
built with that as a given.
That is the way we have alwaysoperated and the kids are a big
part of that.
We try and travel as much as wecan.
They come to as many events asthey can.
(38:37):
They enjoy and support mehugely, so I hope I can sort of
give a bit of that back to them.
Sue Anstiss (38:47):
I would just say it's an important thing to shout
out sometimes, isn't it?
I feel a lot around motherhoodand women working in sport and
that challenge, but it does takea balance and a level of each
stepping forward, stepping backin terms of partnership, of
raising a family and working inan industry, and I'm so similar
to you that my husband took thathome-based role many years when
we had our third child.
But I think sometimes it's nottalked about and women feeling
(39:08):
they how can I do it?
All you know, but actually alot of it comes down to the
support that you have at home toenable you to do that.
Sally Horrox (39:15):
And I think it's you've got to decide what your
big bets are.
You've got to decide what it isyou're going after, and maybe
it's easier to say that now, 20,30 years on, when you're
feeling a bit more confident.
Maybe I wasn't able to do thatas openly when I was first
setting off, but, as I found out, there are so many priorities.
(39:38):
You can't do it all well, youcan have a go, but you need to
know what's going to shift thedial and really get behind those
two or three things.
I always try and think rightthis week or this month or this
year, what two or three thingsare going to create the most
impact in the work that we'redoing.
And hold yourself account tothat, because certainly in my
(40:01):
job you're a mile wide and aninch deep and that can be
dangerous.
You can get lost if you're notcareful, and if the balance tips
too far with your family andyou're exhausted and you can't
find much joy in life, thenyou're really in trouble.
So that's where you have tokeep in my case.
Need others to keep remindingyou of that?
(40:22):
Um, but you've got to find thejoy and want to get up in the
morning and, um, if you loveyour job.
Sue Anstiss (40:27):
You're so much better at it absolutely and just
finally, if you could go backand talk to your younger self as
you're starting out in thesports industry, what, what
advice would you share today?
Do you you think, looking backat your career?
Sally Horrox (40:40):
Oh, what a great question.
It would be to think aboutwhat's special about you.
What can you uniquely do thatis going to make you different
or stand out or offer somethingspecial, and that doesn't have
(41:04):
to be a stellar academicqualification or a CV that has a
remarkable job title on itremarkable job title on it.
Now I know I've been fortunateand, through a lot of hard work,
have progressed up that ladderto get to some of those
positions.
But I think if I'd haverealized earlier on that your
(41:28):
ability to talk to people, toconnect, to listen, to build
relationships, that curiositythat I have learned along the
way, has served me so well, ifI'd have known at a younger age
that those qualities, as well asacademic rigor and as well as
some great work experience,would serve me well.
(41:49):
Those actually are, personally,for me, I think, at the heart
of the success that I've hadalong the way.
Getting along with people,people wanting to do business
with you, to sit across thedinner table and to trust you
actually and to like you, ishugely important.
(42:10):
I'm not sure I mean it takes alot of confidence for a young
person to understand that and tobelieve that.
But if I could have just had alittle bit more of that at a
younger age, or certainly for mychildren, for example, and the
young people that I meet.
I think that's what I'dprobably try and talk to them
about.
On our fridge at home, we allscribble on it and it just says
(42:32):
be curious, be courageous.
And then it says be amazing.
And I just try and say to themand say to myself remember, that
and that will serve you well.
Sue Anstiss (42:49):
Thank you to Sally and wishing her well for the
incredibly exciting next fewmonths ahead for women's rugby.
There are over 200 episodes ofthe game changes podcast that
are free to listen to on allplatforms or from our website at
fearlesswomencouk.
Guests include elite athletes,along with coaches,
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(43:10):
like sally all women who arechanging the game in sport.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
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As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
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We now have over 13,000 membersacross the world, so please do
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(43:31):
The whole of my book Game On theUnstoppable Rise of Women's
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.
Thank you once again to SportEngland for backing the Game
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(43:53):
such an excellent job as ourexecutive producer.
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(44:14):
LinkedIn and Instagram at SueAnstis, the game changes
Fearless women in sport.
Hello and welcome to The Game Changers the podcast
, where I speak to trailblazingwomen in sport, the leaders,
pioneers and rule breakers whoare reshaping the world of sport
for future generations.
Before we start, I'd like totake a moment to thank our
partner, Sport England, whosupport The Game Changers
podcast with a National LotteryAward.
My guest today is Sally Horrox,Chief of Women's Rugby at World
(00:30):
Rugby.
Sally has an incredible trackrecord in transforming women's
sports.
A former non-executive directorof England Netball, advisor to
the FA, uefa and otherinternational football
federations, Sally played aleading role in the creation of
the Netball Super League and theFA Women's Super League.
An expert in the professionaland commercial development of
(00:52):
women's sport, Sally's workedinternationally on major
projects in football, tennis andnetball, understanding
first-hand how to create anddevelop professional leagues,
major events and commercialpartnerships.
At World Rugby, Sally leads thewomen in rugby team,
(01:12):
collaborating with colleaguesacross the world to accelerate
women in rugby on and off thefield.
So, Sally, you started yourcareer as a solicitor.
In fact, you worked for 10years in law and business before
transitioning into sport.
So what led you to leave acareer in commercial law to move
across into sport?
Sally Horrox (01:33):
Well, working as a lawyer was a great grounding
when I think back now to theexperience and the skills I
developed over those 10 years.
First with a big internationallaw firm it was DLA Piper that I
worked with.
I think about the academicrigor, the discipline, the
problem solving, some of which Iwas good at, some of which
(01:55):
frustrated the heck out of me.
I have quite an entrepreneurialstreak and a short attention
span at times.
I'm from the north of England,I'm from Lancashire originally.
I started working with DLAPiper in Manchester, but then
that took me overseas and ittook me to Hong Kong.
So not only did I get a goodtraining, I got great experience
(02:19):
, I got the chance to travel.
Some of those skills I stilluse today in my work the
commercial work around legalcontracting, broadcast deals,
commercial deals, thisprofessional and commercial
development of women's sport.
But big shout out to thatparticular law firm.
They also supported me in mynetball career as well, so they
allowed me the time off to play.
(02:39):
They supported my transition.
They supported my transition.
It also sort of gave me thechance to look at netball
overseas.
So I saw what was going on inAustralia and in New Zealand,
two countries that we traveledto a lot and I saw Friday night
TV.
The netballers were on thetelly on a Friday night.
The leagues were streets aheadfrom where we were in the UK.
(03:04):
So that piqued my interest.
So the skills I developed gaveme a foundation.
The travel gave me sort of anoutside-in look into sport
around the world.
If we sort of fast forward aslottery funding came into the UK
, into England, and I started orretired from playing netball,
(03:24):
eventually I thought, ah, I canuse these legal and business
skills and I can transfer overat a time when those were
required as a lot of sports inthe UK were making that
transition from amateur tosemi-pro to pro.
But I should also just mentionthat the business career wasn't
just in a law firm environment.
I joined a startup, legalbusiness consultancy, which we
(03:46):
grew from a city-based legaloperation to a big international
business that we sold to HayesPLC.
And that experience of runninga business, sales, business
development, grooming a businessfor sale, understanding how to
lead, understanding how tomanage people, a business for
sale, understanding how to lead,understanding how to manage
(04:07):
people that, combined with thelegal skills, probably set me up
more than I ever imagined forthe later stages of my career.
Sue Anstiss (04:12):
You mentioned very casually there your netball
career and I know you've playednetball internationally and I've
known you for a long time.
But I didn't really know thatabout you until I started
researching this.
You're obviously incrediblyhumble about your sporting
pedigree, but you played netballinternationally.
You played in the netball worldcup in 1991.
So can you tell?
Us a little bit more about yournetball career.
I've only ever obviously taughtwork with you.
Sally Horrox (04:34):
Yeah, very true.
Well, I was playing at thattime.
Well, sort of go back a littlebit further, I played at school
and then I'm quite a curiouscharacter and I quite like
trying new things.
So I then diverted, played abit of hockey, played a bit of
lacrosse, went to university andit was only in my 20s that I
came back to netball and I cameback through going to law school
(04:56):
and then, when I got placed inHong Kong, I met an amazing
coach, val Eaton, who was anex-Diamonds Aussie player who
coached Hong Kong.
So I actually ended up playinginternationally whilst I lived
in Hong Kong.
She was amazing and I just gota different level of exposure to
, as I said, international sportand the approach and the ethos
(05:18):
around the training.
I can remember playing in HongKong and then playing in the
World Championships, the WorldCup that was in Sydney.
I then ended up coming back toEngland with the law firm that I
was working with and playingfor Middlesex.
So I came back into the UK,played for Middlesex, worked my
way through, never did get afull international cap for
(05:40):
England, always ended up playingin that sort of development
squad, played some great sort ofhome international friendlies,
warm-up games but never madethat final cut.
I ended up managing a netballteam, our netball team.
That took us through the nextcycle.
I was playing under MaryBeardwood, who was my coach at
the time in Middlesex, whotransitioned to England and then
(06:02):
, when I retired as an athlete,she tapped me on the shoulder
and said how do you fancytransitioning into a leadership
role with England netball andcoming along with me to manage
the England netball team?
Sue Anstiss (06:12):
Oh, wow.
Sally Horrox (06:13):
That was how that door opened, at the same time as
lottery funding was coming in,et cetera, into the sport.
Sue Anstiss (06:19):
And, as you say, you had those roles in netball
for over 20 years.
I think you worked in a seriesof executive non, you had those
roles in Netball for over 20years.
I think you worked in a seriesof executive non-executive roles
, managing, at the start, thatEngland team for the World Cup
in New Zealand in 1999 and theCommonwealth Games in Manchester
in 2002.
So how much did that role ofworking with the players impact
the work that you've done sincethen, that you're doing now?
Sally Horrox (06:40):
Hugely If I think about the legal and business
background that I think hasgiven me that foundational base
and the credibility as I'vemoved through my career on the
professional and commercialdevelopment of sport.
Working in elite sport, right atthe cutting edge with high
performing teams and demandingleaders, brilliant, brilliant
(07:02):
coaches, fantastic athletes, hasdefinitely taught me a lot.
I mean, if you talk about driveand excellence and this sort of
relentless focus on performance, whether you take that on a
court or off a pitch, I learneda huge amount from the athletes
and from the coaches and theleadership team.
(07:22):
Also, culture you learn thatyou are part of the glue, your
behaviors, the way you act, theway you speak when you're part
of that sort of team and youlearn about how culture really
matters.
Certainly, I learned a lotabout team.
You get that culture right, youget the leadership right, that
(07:44):
team then is unstoppable.
It's remarkable how you canelevate performance, what you
can achieve when you put yourmind to it.
I've absolutely taken so muchfrom working in performance
sport across to my work now.
No doubt at all.
Sue Anstiss (08:01):
And you were also part of a team that created the
initial Netball Super League.
So can you take us back thereto 2004?
What was the kind of state ofplay?
What was the landscape like inNetball at the time?
Sally Horrox (08:13):
Well, we didn't have that sort of weekly
training environment that I nowtalk about so much and didn't
have that week in, week outdomestic competition at the
level that we felt was going tokick the game on.
And of course, I'd seen thatwhen we'd been placed in
Australia and New Zealand.
I'd seen what it was doing inthose countries.
At that stage you talk aboutmentors or leaders.
(08:35):
I was working quite closelywith Wai Tamanu, who's a fierce
Maori leader, a woman from NewZealand, ex-captain of the
Silver Films, who I'd playedagainst, and now she came over
to England and was ourperformance director and she
looked at the landscape withothers, a few of the other
leadership team, and took a viewthat we needed to create at the
(08:58):
time what was a super cup.
But yeah, at the time we were awholly amateur sport, we didn't
have a full-time trainingenvironment for athletes and we
were on that journey.
So why Tamanu in particular?
And the management team atEngland Netball recognized the
need to create that and that wasmy transition.
After 10 years as a lawyer,after playing the sport, after
(09:20):
moving into team management, Ithen took a break and had a
family.
After moving into teammanagement, I then took a break
and had a family.
We had three children in quicksuccession between 2002 and 2006
.
And that was the time that Iwas able to sort of jump off the
corporate sort of bandwagon and, with this change of
environment in the netball, getinvolved, roll my sleeves up and
(09:44):
get involved in the first stageof the establishment of the
Netball Super League.
Sue Anstiss (09:48):
And was there much resistance to it at the time, or
was it something that the sportfelt it needed?
Sally Horrox (09:53):
That's a great question because it takes me
back.
I can remember, actually, theconversations that were going on
with county netball.
At the time I was the captainof Middlesex.
I was coming out of Middlesex,transitioning and moving to this
sort of executive sportsadministration role and we had
to do a whole review of thepyramid, the structures, the
(10:14):
counties, and I can remember,you know, having a huge sense of
sort of love and all theexperience I'd got as a young
player working and playing inthat sort of county
infrastructure.
So it was tough, you know.
There was a sense of losing abit of that heritage and a bit
of that history, and thatcontinued for quite a few years.
(10:36):
The Netball Super League, asyou know, has gone through a
couple of iterations over thelast 20 years, but it was a
controversial decision at thetime but I definitely think it
was the right time to buildthose foundations.
Sue Anstiss (10:49):
And you went on to chair the Vitality Netball Super
League and you remained on themain board.
I think you remained thereuntil 2017.
So what's it like for you tohave watched that evolution, as
you say, over 20 years, to wherewe are today with Netball Super
League 2.0?0?
Sally Horrox (11:06):
well, I'm very proud of the fact that I managed
to sort of work and play andcontribute in my sport right
across from sort of amateurthrough to helping in some way
to to shape that transition,this pathway to professionalism
that the sport has been on.
(11:26):
And yeah, you're right,eventually I joined the England
Netball Board and I'm nowproudly aware I have an honorary
life member.
Sue Anstiss (11:33):
I saw that.
I saw that.
It's amazing, isn't it?
Sally Horrox (11:36):
Yeah, it's something I'm very proud of.
It made me realise as well,gave me a much broader
understanding that transitionacross of you know what it's
like to steward a sport and theresponsibility that you feel in
a sort of leadership role.
Because, whilst you know I loveplaying the game and my
(11:58):
instinct is to be around theplayers and on the pitch on the
court, you realize you knowthere's a much broader
understanding required ofgovernance, of leadership, of
what it takes to shape a sport,what it takes to connect those
pathways from participation toperformance, and there's the
economic stability of a sportthat's so sharply required as it
(12:23):
develops.
So I learned an awful lot overthose 20 years as I transitioned
through Netball Super League tochairing it.
Because chairing it was part ofmy remit on England Netball
Board.
Everyone had a responsibilityin addition to their sort of
volunteering on the board andbecause I had a commercial
background and a performancebackground, it was an obvious
(12:46):
spot for me to contribute.
But yeah, I learned a lot aboutleadership with that group and
also people's sort of deepcommitment to to the sport and
the people in it.
They really, really care Tovolunteer at that level and put
the time in that you put in.
It was quite humbling really,and it probably is a gain If you
(13:09):
talk about all these facets ofmy experience.
I got a lot out of that and Ithink it was at a relatively
young age.
I've always ended up being oneof the younger people I'm not so
young now, but I felt like acouple of good men and good
women have tapped me on theshoulder along the way and
brought me into thoseenvironments.
And the skill there islistening.
(13:31):
You've got to listen well,listen well, listen hard and try
and make good decisions thatserve the sport well.
Sue Anstiss (13:38):
And beyond being an honorary life member of England
Netball with your lovely pinbadge, are you still involved in
netball in any way today, otherthan a passionate fan?
Sally Horrox (13:47):
Great question.
I am a mother of four kids, twoof whom played a lot of netball
out of Bath.
So one of our girls is stillplaying.
So I'm there supporting, I'mthere being the driver, the
parent running around thecountry, and she loves her sport
.
And I have been involved behindthe scenes, volunteering and
(14:09):
supporting and doing a bit ofconsultancy work when I was
independent.
But also one of the things I'vehad to be conscious of as I've
developed in my career is alsoindependence, integrity and
conflict, because I've movedfrom netball into football.
I've moved from footballthrough a really interesting
time as an independent workingin a small business and doing
(14:32):
work in tennis, which wasfantastic, and now into rugby.
So you've also got to maintainyour independence and declare
conflict from time to time.
So I can't dive in with themmuch as I'd like to sometimes.
Sue Anstiss (14:47):
As you alluded to then, you then spent almost a
decade driving women's footballworking with the Football
Association, the FA.
So what was your initial remitin that role?
Sally Horrox (14:58):
Well, it was a six-week feasibility study.
It's the story of my life.
I'm quite curious.
I always like to go throughsort of doors as they open, meet
new people.
I'd met Kelly Simmons, who hasremained a firm friend and is
still on this journey in theprofessional and commercial
development of women's sport,women's football same path that
(15:20):
I'm treading in parallel.
And football made contact and Ideveloped a relationship there
because they'd seen what washappening in netball, so they'd
seen that we developed thefoundations as we moved on this
pathway to professionalism, tocreating a new league, and they
were looking in from the outside.
(15:41):
I had that conversation with acouple of leaders at the FA
Kelly was part of that and thatled to a feasibility study on
the creation of a professionalwomen's league.
You know what's the size of theprize, what's the commercial
potential for women's football?
We did that for two months in2006, 2007, I think, and then
(16:02):
that led to working for the FAover a decade, essentially A
really exciting time to come in.
You know, the brink of this newera full of potential, and it
was about creating strategiesand creating a plan to develop
and lead the commercial andprofessional development of
women's football in this country, but spearheaded by the
(16:24):
creation of what is now theWomen's Super League.
So that was the task.
Six weeks became 10 years onand off, and it was an
incredible journey and again,one of the things that I'm
incredibly proud of now when Ilook back to where that league
and competition is now in termsof its expansion and its
(16:45):
recognition as being one of theworld-leading competitions and
the fact that it's createdcareers and a professional
pathway for women, thousands ofwomen all over the world not all
down to me, by the way, but youcan just see how it unlocks
those opportunities, which isfabulous.
Sue Anstiss (17:03):
So you talked about that feasibility study in 2006
or so, but it was 2011,.
I think it was initiallycreated and then, in 2014,
expanded to two divisions.
What was the environment likein terms of at the FA versus
what you'd experienced withinthe netball super league in that
environment, with a muchdifference in terms of the the
(17:24):
environment around?
Sally Horrox (17:25):
the sport.
Well, the size and scale offootball is completely different
and I experience that now aswell in rugby, because rugby is
a, you know, a smaller sportplayed in fewer countries around
the world.
But I'd come from an all-femalesport at the time at England,
netball into sport played by menand women on a much greater
(17:48):
scale, which is quiteintimidating actually, and you
can start to doubt yourself.
I was thinking just inpreparing for our conversation.
I was reflecting on thedifferent environments in
netball versus football, versustennis and rugby.
Football taught me a hugeamount because the working
(18:12):
netball.
In a way, we'd managed to testsomething, we'd managed to pilot
something, we knew what worked.
Well, the principles stillremained the same.
So as you transferred across,you were still holding onto the
principles around creating anathlete centered competition,
something that had a long-termeconomic sustainability,
(18:32):
something that balanced the waythe investment worked behind,
building infrastructure andpathways, while still having a
sort of eye on participationright the way through from
grassroots to the elite game.
But you were just doing it on alarger scale.
You were also working with thePremier League.
You were working withprofessional men's football
(18:53):
clubs.
So you had to back yourself.
You had to have the confidencethat you knew what you were
doing.
This was tried and tested.
The model worked, but you hadto apply it in a football
setting.
But I can remember manymeetings.
You know, the difference beingI would go into meetings with
professional men's footballclubs, with leaders of skills
(19:16):
here that are relevant.
I know my stuff, I can applythose skills in this setting.
I have to be really aware ofthat and then bring these people
with me.
So it felt like a receptiveenvironment.
But you had to prove yourselfand you also had to work really
(19:37):
hard to prove the economic andbusiness case for what we were
presenting, because of the sizeand scale of the investment,
which was much greater.
Honestly, I really enjoyed that, that being held to account.
Sue Anstiss (19:50):
I was going to ask you then because you have worked
I'm going to come on to talkabout rugby, but you've worked
in many environments that arethose predominantly male
environments and what do youthink are some of those unique
challenges?
You have alluded a bit to thatand being in those rooms and
maybe needing to presentyourself differently, but how
have you personally navigatedthose challenges?
Sally Horrox (20:10):
I think you have to be very aware of the room
that you're going into and theaudience that you are speaking
to, and I don't think that'salways a male-female issue.
I mean, it's a fair point,having worked in male-dominated
environments, in law firms aswell as in business, as in sport
(20:32):
.
But I think you in my case Ican only speak for myself have
to be acutely aware of theproblem that you're trying to
solve and the different people'sperspective in the rooms, and I
suppose that's a skill that I'mvery conscious of working to
hone over the years.
So if we were going into a room, into a predominantly male room
(20:56):
of leaders in men'sprofessional football clubs,
you'd be working out, okay,what's in it for them.
If they're trying to build fanbase, if they're trying to
attract more women into the game, if they want to enhance
reputation, if they want topresent the sport differently,
how can we work in partnershiptogether to do that?
(21:17):
So that's always been myapproach to those environments.
And then just one further caveatto that sometimes you do come
across people who are justobstinate, have a different
point of view or just do notunderstand your perspective, and
that's difficult and I alwaysretreat to I'm a natural
(21:42):
optimist my glasses mostly halffull a position of right.
I need to educate, I need toexplain, I need to take this
person with me and on the wholeit served me well.
But sometimes you just hit abrick wall and that has happened
from time to time and then whatI've always done is just take
(22:03):
myself out of the room, out ofthe situation.
And this is where resiliencecomes in and maybe this is where
performance, sport, comes in.
You think right, I failed here,Don't take personal slight.
In that situation, I havefailed to be able to persuade or
influence whoever that personis.
So I'll go away, try and breakit down and come back at it
(22:24):
again from a differentperspective.
But I rarely give up andthere's usually a partnership, a
compromise position that youcan reach.
You know it is exhausting fromtime to time.
Sue Anstiss (22:35):
I love that approach, though there is that
whole collaboration, win-win,not needing to dominate, for
someone else to lose in orderfor you to win a point, and I
think that's yeah.
You definitely see a change inleadership, you hope, moving
forwards.
I'm going to go back to whenyou were at the FA.
I know a lot of your work wasaround the new commercial
strategy for the women's game,so separating and restructuring
(22:59):
commercial and media rights toraise profile and increase the
investment.
As you look back now from whereyou were to where we are today,
is it where you thought itwould get to in terms of that
commercial investment and thefunding that we've had with
Broadcast Rights for WSL?
Sally Horrox (23:14):
Yes, it is.
I think one of the themes to mysort of career experience and I
suppose my approach is that Iwill always try to look forward
10 or 20 years hence, alwaysbecause sport works in
performance cycles, it works inOlympic cycles, it works in
World Cup cycles and myexperience of building a
(23:36):
business before I shifted intonetball and then onwards into
football and beyond was that youreally need a clear goal, a
clear plan and you need to workthrough growth cycles to achieve
your end goal.
You often have to pivot alongthe way.
You might acquire along the wayand that's very much the
approach I had, probably innetball.
(23:57):
It was too early, it was reallyfoundational stages and you can
see where netball is moving nowon that more commercial,
professional pathway.
But in football, part of thatfeasibility initially the study
we did, initially the goal thatI set was for us to accelerate
development over a decade tobeat the Brown Bundesliga, which
(24:18):
was 21 years mature at thatstage.
So we were trying to get in 10years or certainly I was in 10
years what the Bundesliga hadachieved in 21 or 22 at the time
and I reckon we got there ineight against our pathway with
that expansion plan as youdescribed.
But then beyond that, as Imoved out of the FA, one of the
(24:40):
last things I can remember sortof pitching to the board, the
management team with Kelly, wasthat we should bid for the
women's Euros, to bring thewomen's Euros in now.
That was the stage that I thenexited and moved out to work
independently, went to work, dosome work for UEFA and a little
bit for FIFA, and then thetransition to rugby.
But there was always thatforward view of where it could
(25:02):
go to next.
And for me when I looked at thevaluation I would always look
at you know, what's thevaluation here?
What's the valuation of thisbook?
What's the size, the commercialpotential of it?
I always benchmark that againstthe full valuation of what
men's football was.
So even if we were to take 5%,10%, 15%, 20% of a valuation, it
(25:25):
would be a stellar valuationcompared to where we were and I
had confidence in the size ofthe audience, the size of the
market, all of the green shoots,that sort of first stage that
we were seeing.
So even when I exited aftersort of the hands-on piece of
leading that stage ofdevelopment, in my mind you know
, it had a stellar opportunityin front of it, and that's
(25:48):
clearly been taken on by somegreat leaders, since I moved to
one side.
Sue Anstiss (25:54):
And it was three years ago.
Was it really three years agothat you joined World Rugby as
Chief of Women's Rugby?
That seems to have come veryquickly.
So what attracted you to thatrole?
What were you doing at the timeand why did you make that shift
across to that fantastic role?
Sally Horrox (26:08):
Well, covid had something to do with it.
That was a time when we allprobably, I'm sure, sat back and
had a rethink about many thingsin our life.
Just before COVID, myself and awonderful woman, sally Hancock,
and I had you know I'd lovedthe time in football.
I'd taken the work in Englandto another level, acting as a
(26:30):
sort of an expert and advisor toUEFA.
So I'd started to get a muchbroader European view of
football, with Bundesliga, withSerie A, b&g and Italy working
on growth strategies aroundEurope.
And Sally and I had decidedthat we would together create a
women's sport and commercialconsultancy so that we could be
(26:51):
independent and we could have abit of fun and we could work in
other sports, and it wasfantastic.
But then COVID hit, so probablyour time together got cut short
.
But I have no regrets.
We had the best time and someof the clients that we work with
we work with the IOC, we workwith Nissan, we work with Sky
and we work with World Rugby Iin COVID was very much based at
(27:16):
home and had the opportunity towork on a project with World
Rugby, who were also looking atthe pathway to professionalism.
So here we go again, anotherfeasibility study.
It wasn't quite as focused onthe creation of a league or
competition, but it was focusedon the professional development
of women's rugby and, in anutshell, you know that work was
(27:39):
fantastic.
I really enjoyed doing it.
I did it also in partnershipwith another consultancy, portas
Consulting, who are now CAA,and we did a wonderful piece of
work, met some great people inworld rugby.
A lot is to do with the people.
Some great people For me at thetime a very impressive chief
executive, alan Gilpin, whopainted a picture of a vision
(28:01):
for growth and ambition and thatled to the role that I now
perform.
There was a great woman calledKatie Sadlier who was in a
general manager role for women'srugby at the time.
She took on a job as the chiefexecutive of Commonwealth Games,
which is great.
It's always great to see peoplestepping up and moving through.
But women's rugby at the timeshe took on a job as the chief
executive of Commonwealth Games,which is great.
It's always great to see peoplestepping up and moving through.
Sue Anstiss (28:21):
I should just say she's a lovely guest on the Game
Changers.
I can't remember what series itis, but she was a lovely guest
on the Game Changers podcast too.
Sally Horrox (28:27):
Fantastic.
So there's a bit of time andplace to all of these moves.
There's the curiosity, there'sthe opportunity, but there's a
little bit of time and place.
You do create your own luck.
I think we've done a greatpiece of work for World Rugby,
but I can remember Alan sayingwell, here it is, here's the
study, here's the report, here'sthe pathway.
Normally you then, or sometimeswhen you're advising people,
(28:51):
then file that away and put itin the bottom drawer.
And this was very much right.
Here you go If you're going tocome into this post and,
relatively speaking, work from ablank sheet of paper in a new
elevated role which sits at thetop table the chief of women's
rugby role.
So now it's your responsibilityfor delivering it.
So that's how it came about Alot of freedom to really shape
(29:15):
something new.
And, by the way, I love rugby.
I'm a massive fan.
I've come from a family wherewe love it and our children play
it, so it's great again to bepart of that community.
Sue Anstiss (29:28):
And you're working across 130, I think, member
unions, which sounds like anenormous challenge, especially,
I guess, when you've come fromplaces in sports where it may be
one national governing body,one country almost, or home
nations.
But can you tell us a bit moreabout how you go about creating
unity within your role acrossthe sport when you're
(29:48):
recognising there are so manyregional differences?
Sally Horrox (29:52):
Well, one size doesn't fit all.
I mean, that's the obviouscomment.
I'm in America at the moment.
I'm sort of sitting here in NewYork just watch them play Fiji.
You know, Fiji is not likeFrance, France is not like the
USA, it's not like Madagascar.
So you've got huge differencesin size and scale of development
and you have to remember that.
(30:12):
Remember that.
And in culture, frankly as well, we're dealing with economic
challenges, You're dealing withwar zones and conflict in some
areas of the world, You'redealing with gender-based
violence, and this is just someof the issues you deal with off
the pitch.
So you've got to be reallyacutely aware of that in all
your dealings.
Again, just the listening ear isso important so that you
(30:36):
understand what their challengesare and what they want from you
as an international federation.
It's wildly different actually,from country to country and you
should never assume that youknow what role you're going to
play.
They may ask something verydifferent of you.
And then the other point isprobably collaboration, not
control.
(30:56):
And then the other point isprobably collaboration, not
control, because the power, Ithink and I am on a steep
learning curve here in rugby, asyou say, across 133 unions is
understanding, sort of theinsight and the shared
connections between thosecountries.
If you can build the insightand you can build the
connections, they can reallylearn from each other.
(31:19):
So, yes, we have a sort offunding relationship with unions
.
We make grants and we makeawards and we engage in
partnership on programs andcompetitions around the world.
But if you actually sit downand you share insights and you
collaborate and you connectparticularly the women who are
leading the sport in thisdifferent country it's
remarkable how you see thisstronger, sustainable union
(31:43):
developing and their growthplans.
And then the third point I'dmake is you have to be pretty
realistic and pragmatic aboutwhat can be achieved and what
your role is and you really canhelp and make a difference.
But there's no point trying tosort of boil the ocean here, I
found, if you can agree on twoor three initiatives where you
(32:03):
can really partner and whatwe've done around the World Cup.
We've created these regionalsummits for women's rugby.
We've pulled together now 50unions 70 unions, I think,
across three regions into smallclusters where they can all talk
to and get to know each otherand they're all now building.
I think we've got over 50growth plans now around the
world for women's rugby, butthey have built them themselves
(32:25):
from ground up.
We're not coming in sort ofwith a helicopter view imposing
that, and then we'll try andalign our support behind and
alongside that.
Sue Anstiss (32:34):
What is the potential for growth with
women's rugby right now, do youfeel?
Sally Horrox (32:39):
So you can answer that from many different angles.
But if you take participation,at the moment, those unions I've
just talked about have just putall their heads together to
come up with what they'recalling the Participation Growth
Manifesto or a growthcommitment, and you'll see this
around the World Cup this summer, as we took the view.
Well, let's listen to them.
(33:01):
This is not for us.
By the way, I'm all in favour.
I've worked with FIFA and UEFAand there's great commitments
for doubling and tripling thesize of the women's game.
I'm absolutely behind that, butrather than us impose it from
above, certainly from myperspective, we needed to
understand the appetite from thebase up.
So from a participation pointof view, I think there's huge
(33:24):
potential and if you think aboutthe game we have the sevens
game, which actually is aspearhead for growth in women's
rugby it's easier to get thenumbers.
It's easier to get in countriesthat don't perhaps have the
economic base or the number ofgirls or women coming through.
It's an easier game to get holdof and have a go at.
There's T1 rugby as well.
(33:46):
So participation for girls istracking faster than any other
growth segment in the sport andit's tracking at sort of.
I think we're multiplying iteight to 10% growth per annum.
So if it continues at that, itwill go from being women are 25%
of the playing base.
We'll hit over 30, 33% overthis next cycle.
(34:07):
So why can't it become equityand gender numbers 50, 50 over
time?
We haven't got that commitmentyet, but we've certainly got
that 10% year-on-year growth.
And then, at the other end ofthe sport, in terms of the
professional and commercialdevelopment, there's huge
appetite and that's probablywhere, again, because of my
(34:29):
experience, a lot of my focus isit's on visibility, it's on
audience build and it's onaudience build and it's on that
world-class world cups, theplatform that will be created
this summer with rugby world cup2025, which, in my opinion,
will be that pivot point, in thesame way that 2019 for the fifa
women's world cup in france was.
(34:49):
And then this pathway toprofessionalism, the work we're
doing on investment, on resreshaping, on supporting unions
to really take advantage of youknow, how they develop their
leagues and competitions and theprofessional game.
I think it's going to providehuge opportunity and growth.
And I sit here, obviously inAmerica, saying that to you,
having spent the last week atfundraising dinners, sold out
(35:12):
stadiums, conversations andmeetings with Alona Ma, who is
obviously working in partnershipwith USA Rugby to grow the game
.
We go to the United Nationstomorrow to talk on the same
topic, also on sport fordevelopment and how it changes
women and girls' lives, inpartnership with Child Fund.
But these are all the aspectsto building a stronger, more
(35:33):
powerful sport and rugby.
You know rugby itself is doinga great job.
You know more power to itselbow.
We just need to keep workingtogether.
Sue Anstiss (35:42):
And I would say, for more details of the Women's
Rugby World Cup.
I would recommend people listento the brilliant episode with
your colleague, sarah Massey,who's the Managing Director for
the Women's Rugby World Cup 2025.
And I think that was in thelast series, so series 19.
But you do seem to be at everysports industry event I have
attended in the last few months,so doing a huge amount of work
for advocacy for women's rugbyand the women's rugby World Cup.
(36:05):
So I guess one of my questionsis how do you I think I did ask
you this last time I saw you howdid you manage to fit all that
in and and do all you're doingtoo?
It does feel not.
How do you not get overwhelmed?
But it does feel like it's akind of huge role and a
figurehead piece that you've got, as well as collaborating and
leading, as you've said.
Sally Horrox (36:24):
Well, I do take the advocacy piece really
seriously and, I suppose, made areally intentional decision to
do that and I have the supportof my colleagues because
obviously I have my own workplan.
I have KPIs and performanceindicators and targets to hit.
We all in a corporateenvironment, in a modern sports
(36:47):
business, you have to be heldaccountable for what you are
tasked with delivering and themoney that you're spending,
frankly as well.
Are you doing the right thingfor the sport?
Are you spending your time inthe right places?
And we've agreed thatvisibility and advocacy at the
right time in the right placesis hugely important because we
are still at a relatively earlystage in rugby 40 years old, I
(37:13):
think it's 40.
We're in our 10th edition ofthe World Cup this year.
So, choosing to be on thoseplatforms, preparing well it's a
job of work if you're going todo it properly, to make sure, as
you said, with Sarah Massey,who is a brilliant leader and is
doing a fabulous job and ispart of the management team that
(37:35):
I'm part of.
It's a really important part ofwhat we do because it raises
profile, it changes perceptions,it puts us on the international
stage, it unlocks investment.
A lot of the work is around ourbrand partnerships.
I sit alongside our brandpartners.
You're in sales mode, you're inbusiness development mode, day
(37:56):
in, day out.
So the support of the businessis hugely important.
And on a personal level, I havea fantastic husband and four
great kids and I honestlycouldn't do what I do if he
wasn't rock solid.
He's a massive sports fan andhe's a teacher and a rugby coach
(38:16):
and he is very much HQhome-based, whereas I am on the
road a lot of the time.
But our relationship and ourfamily life has been sort of
built with that as a given.
That is the way we have alwaysoperated and the kids are a big
part of that.
We try and travel as much as wecan.
They come to as many events asthey can.
(38:37):
They enjoy and support mehugely, so I hope I can sort of
give a bit of that back to them.
Sue Anstiss (38:47):
I would just say it's an important thing to shout
out sometimes, isn't it?
I feel a lot around motherhoodand women working in sport and
that challenge, but it does takea balance and a level of each
stepping forward, stepping backin terms of partnership, of
raising a family and working inan industry, and I'm so similar
to you that my husband took thathome-based role many years when
we had our third child.
But I think sometimes it's nottalked about and women feeling
(39:08):
they how can I do it?
All you know, but actually alot of it comes down to the
support that you have at home toenable you to do that.
Sally Horrox (39:15):
And I think it's you've got to decide what your
big bets are.
You've got to decide what it isyou're going after, and maybe
it's easier to say that now, 20,30 years on, when you're
feeling a bit more confident.
Maybe I wasn't able to do thatas openly when I was first
setting off, but, as I found out, there are so many priorities.
(39:38):
You can't do it all well, youcan have a go, but you need to
know what's going to shift thedial and really get behind those
two or three things.
I always try and think rightthis week or this month or this
year, what two or three thingsare going to create the most
impact in the work that we'redoing.
And hold yourself account tothat, because certainly in my
(40:01):
job you're a mile wide and aninch deep and that can be
dangerous.
You can get lost if you're notcareful, and if the balance tips
too far with your family andyou're exhausted and you can't
find much joy in life, thenyou're really in trouble.
So that's where you have tokeep in my case.
Need others to keep remindingyou of that?
(40:22):
Um, but you've got to find thejoy and want to get up in the
morning and, um, if you loveyour job.
Sue Anstiss (40:27):
You're so much better at it absolutely and just
finally, if you could go backand talk to your younger self as
you're starting out in thesports industry, what, what
advice would you share today?
Do you you think, looking backat your career?
Sally Horrox (40:40):
Oh, what a great question.
It would be to think aboutwhat's special about you.
What can you uniquely do thatis going to make you different
or stand out or offer somethingspecial, and that doesn't have
(41:04):
to be a stellar academicqualification or a CV that has a
remarkable job title on itremarkable job title on it.
Now I know I've been fortunateand, through a lot of hard work,
have progressed up that ladderto get to some of those
positions.
But I think if I'd haverealized earlier on that your
(41:28):
ability to talk to people, toconnect, to listen, to build
relationships, that curiositythat I have learned along the
way, has served me so well, ifI'd have known at a younger age
that those qualities, as well asacademic rigor and as well as
some great work experience,would serve me well.
(41:49):
Those actually are, personally,for me, I think, at the heart
of the success that I've hadalong the way.
Getting along with people,people wanting to do business
with you, to sit across thedinner table and to trust you
actually and to like you, ishugely important.
(42:10):
I'm not sure I mean it takes alot of confidence for a young
person to understand that and tobelieve that.
But if I could have just had alittle bit more of that at a
younger age, or certainly for mychildren, for example, and the
young people that I meet.
I think that's what I'dprobably try and talk to them
about.
On our fridge at home, we allscribble on it and it just says
(42:32):
be curious, be courageous.
And then it says be amazing.
And I just try and say to themand say to myself remember, that
and that will serve you well.
Sue Anstiss (42:49):
Thank you to Sally and wishing her well for the
incredibly exciting next fewmonths ahead for women's rugby.
There are over 200 episodes ofthe game changes podcast that
are free to listen to on allplatforms or from our website at
fearlesswomencouk.
Guests include elite athletes,along with coaches,
entrepreneurs, broadcasters,scientists, journalists and ceos
(43:10):
like sally all women who arechanging the game in sport.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
can also find out more about thewomen in sport.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
can also find out more about theWomen's Sport Collective, a
free, inclusive community forall women working in sport.
We now have over 13,000 membersacross the world, so please do
come and join us.
(43:31):
The whole of my book Game On theUnstoppable Rise of Women's
Sport is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Every episode of series 13 isme reading a chapter of the book
.
Thank you once again to SportEngland for backing the Game
Changers and the Women's SportCollective with a National
Lottery Award, and to Sam Walkerat what Goes On Media, who does
(43:53):
such an excellent job as ourexecutive producer.
Thank you also to my brilliantcolleague at fearless women,
kate hannon.
You can find the game changerson all podcast platforms, so
please do follow us now toensure you don't miss out on
future episodes.
Come and say hello on socialmedia, where you'll find me on
(44:14):
LinkedIn and Instagram at SueAnstis, the game changes
Fearless women in sport.
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