October 20, 2025 • 43 mins
“It’s so easy to chase perfection, but it doesn’t exist. The whole world is built on imperfection - and that’s what makes it beautiful.”
It was our privilege to talk to World Cup winner and Bristol Bears tighthead Sarah Bern for today's episode of The Game Changers podcast as she relives that history-making day at Twickenham and what's to follow.
Sarah candidly traces her journey from a teenager wrestling with body image to a visible role model for strong, muscular women. Authentic on and off the pitch, Sarah shares how Ilona Maher’s arrival at Bristol Bears helped her find her own voice on social media - a powerful tool to drive change and open vital commercial doors for female athletes.
Sarah takes us behind the scenes - sharing what it's feels like in an England scrum or waiting in the tunnel walk to walk out in front of 82,000 fans.
We also talk about the crossover of fashion and women's sport with the launch of her own clothing label - Below the Shoulder - with her teammates, a Vogue photoshoot and how Red Roses merchandise has been selling out in stores.
Looking ahead, Sarah calls for true equality across sport as we judge female athletes by what happens on the pitch, not by their appearance.
Her legacy goal is simple and powerful - to help women feel comfortable in their own skin so they can attack life with purpose and joy.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sarah Bern (00:05):
It's phenomenal, but we're speechless.
Like we're lost for ways toactually get your hands on that
trophy is pure joy, but relief,but excitement, but like so many
different emotions, and justlike not only have we won this
World Cup that we have workedincredibly hard for, like, we're
hopefully changing the game forwomen's rugby and helping women
(00:26):
sport all over the world.
Sue Anstiss (00:33):
Today in The Game Changes, I'm joined by Sarah
Bern, one of the most celebratedplayers in World Rugby.
A World Cup winner with the redroses and a cornerstone of
Bristol Bear's front row.
Sarah's renowned for herexplosive running game, her
dominance in the scrum and herfearless leadership on and off
the pitch.
But Sarah's story is about morethan winning medals.
(00:55):
From struggling with body imageas a teenager to becoming a
proud role model for strong,muscular women, Sarah has
reshaped perceptions of what afemale athlete can look like.
She's inspiring the nextgeneration not just with her
performances, but with herhonesty, courage, and her joy
for the game of rugby.
So, Sarah, firstly, massivecongratulations.
(01:21):
Winning the World Cup atTwickenham in front of 82,000.
What did that moment mean toyou personally as you finally
got your hands on that beautifultrophy?
Well, firstly, thank you forthat lovely introduction.
Sarah Bern (01:32):
I don't think I've ever heard anyone say all those
nice things about me.
So I'm scaring up a little bit.
No, I'm very flattered.
But yeah, winning the trophy.
First of all, the 82,000, likeabsolutely incredible.
When we got the bus in, it wasjust phenomenal, like the
streets were full.
And when we got the 60,000,that was really special when we
played against France.
(01:53):
And it was the first time wethought, wow, like people are
interested and invested in us.
But coming into the 80,000, wehad the cues of people on the
floor, but the stands, it was upon the stand and around the
south stand spiral staircase.
It's amazing, wasn't it?
Heads everywhere looking overthe balcony.
And that, like, there's thaticonic picture that I think um
(02:14):
our our lovely media peopletook.
And I wore it literally,remember that we were all sat on
the bus going, wow, look upthere, like that's phenomenal.
And just our fans are amazing,like they're so amazing.
They just want us to do well.
And I think that's reallyspecial as well, with the World
Cup final and England being init.
It was essentially it lookedlike a stadium full of about
(02:35):
80,000 English fans, and like2,000 of every other nation.
It was an incredibleexperience, and it hasn't even
sunk in.
Like, I I I've been asked alot, and everyone has, and and
we've probably all got the sameanswer.
Like, it's phenomenal, butwe're speechless.
Like, we're lost for words toactually get your hands on that
trophy is pure joy, but relief,but excitement, but like so many
(03:00):
different emotions, and justlike proud to like be able to
represent our country and say,look, guys, like not only have
we won this World Cup that wehave worked incredibly hard for,
like, we're hopefully changingthe game for women's rugby and
helping women sport all over theworld.
Sue Anstiss (03:17):
Absolutely.
And is there a moment youtalked about that seeing the
Southstand with everyone lookingover as the coach came in, but
is there another snapshot memoryof the game that you think will
stay with you forever as youkind of look back in your old
age?
Sarah Bern (03:31):
I think for me personally, like coming on to a
game where you know we were alittle bit in front, but we
weren't massively in front, andit was a little bit of a oh a
Canada coming back in and havingit being a scrum, and I think
it's like um you know, when youget subbed on, you're like the
one thing you don't want to gostraight into is a scrum because
it's like the ultimate pressurepoint.
(03:51):
So um we came on and we got thethat amazing penalty, and for
me, I just remember thinkinglike this ball of excitement
just came over me and was likethis confidence of like let's go
and do it now.
And yeah, that was definitely adefying moment for me as a
front rower, obviously.
But um, I think just seeing ZoeOrcroft burst into tears and
(04:12):
just you know being herroommate, I know how how much
she gives everything like we alldo, but Zoe is just different
gravy since she was 17 yearsold, and there was a time where
you know she wasn't in the squadfor certain tournaments, and
now you think, wow, that's justabsolutely how could you ever
not take Zoe Oldcroft somewhereand she's she's the most amazing
(04:34):
captain we could have everasked for, and yeah, I'm just
yeah, so much joy to see herthat happy and just all that
emotion just released.
Sue Anstiss (04:43):
I loved it.
They're beautiful, happy, uglyproper tears, weren't they?
It was proper sobbing emotionaltears there.
I I love so much about the day.
I think for me, one of the mostpowerful moments was when the
camera, we were in the stadium,the camera panned to you all in
the tunnel.
I get goosebumps now, as you'rewaiting to walk out into the
stadium and just looking atpeople's faces, and we were out
there, so we knew the noise andthe just the sounds and the
(05:05):
sights, and I was thinking, ohwhat are you thinking?
So what were what were yourthoughts as you were there,
knowing you were coming out intothis cauldron, as it were?
Sarah Bern (05:13):
I think for me it was excitement.
I was like, This is everythingthat we have ever worked for,
not just for the last threeyears, but you know, to s to
sell out Twickenham Stadium fora home World Cup final, like
that is something, you know, notvery many players get to to be
a part of.
And also, you know, that'ssomething we've been working on
(05:34):
my whole nine, ten years of myEngland rugby career, like all
building up to that one point ofbecoming a World Cup champion.
So, you know, it wasexcitement.
I remember Maud, like, becauseof the amount of people there.
Maud literally turned to me andwas like, Oh, she was like, I I
I feel a bit wobbly.
And I was like, You'll begreat.
Don't don't like, don't worry,you're always great, Maud.
(05:55):
Like, you'll be amazing.
And she was like, No, not toplay, to that, I'm gonna cry in
the anthropomorph.
How lovely.
Cute.
I think it was just anoverwhelming amount of support
and excitement from the fans.
Like we felt that, and that youknow, that you can't help but
it brings out an emotion becauseyou're so proud and um thankful
for them and to be able to bein the position you are at that
(06:15):
point in time.
Sue Anstiss (06:16):
Yeah, absolutely.
You've obviously experiencedtwo previous World Cup finals
that didn't have such happyendings.
So, how did those memoriesimpact the way that you handled
this one?
Uh yeah, I've had quite ajourney, I think.
Sarah Bern (06:30):
When I was younger, I was very much, I'm gonna be
the best in the world and I'mgonna do everything.
And kind of that like JohnnyWilkinson mentality, need to do
everything, need to be the bestin the gym, best in nutrition,
or not in terms of likecompetitiveness, but more so for
me to be like, I've doneeverything I can do.
So we're playing in 2017, I wasa baby, I've didn't know how to
(06:50):
scrummage personally.
I just was put there and I waswinging it.
But it was great fun and Iloved it.
And I was playing with EmilyScarrot, Case Daly McLean,
Danielle Waterman, like allthese plays that I'd watched
growing up because I was verylucky to be at London Irish and
Isha Rugby Club, where theyplayed a lot.
You know, I was in total awe ofall of that.
So, first World Cup, reallyexciting, and I remember being
(07:12):
like, Well, I'm playing with allthese legends, so we're
definitely gonna win.
Like, because I was just likean 18-year-old.
I was like, obviously, likethese are the best plays ever.
Um and we did it, and I afterthat I thought, no, I'm gonna do
everything, and that's wherethat mentality came in.
And in 2022, it was obviouslytricky with COVID and all that
kind of uncertainty aroundwhat's it gonna look like?
Are we gonna play?
Are we not gonna play?
(07:32):
Have we trained enough?
Have we had the ability to havetime together?
That probably for me kind ofdrove it even more to be, I need
to be on it even more becausethere's all these different
distractions.
And we kind of came out withthe same result.
And I think I was a little bitlike like I've just spent so
much of my time so incrediblyfocused that I probably had a
(07:56):
lot of blind spots that I wasn'tprobably aware of, whether that
was I didn't see enough of myfamily or I didn't hang out with
friends enough and things likethat.
So I think I made a bigconscious effort because I was
so sad when we we lost thatWorld Cup final.
That actually, you know, thistime around I really want to
enjoy it.
I want to try and you knowenjoy the fans, enjoy the
experience.
(08:16):
Because you you never know,like it could go like that.
Injury or you know, selectionor whatever.
So this World Cup, yeah, I Ihad a significant knee injury
the last season.
So I missed out a big chunk ofEngland that in that time frame.
But then coming back, I thoughtI'm gonna relish in this.
Like I I want to be joyful, Iwant to enjoy, I want to be
(08:38):
confident in myself.
And actually, I found, youknow, doing things on social
media where you're having funwith the crowd and engaging with
people and like actually talkgenuinely talking to people
about their experiences helpedme to kind of find my feet in my
own skin, if that makes sense.
And um helped me, I think, tojust get the hard work right and
(09:00):
also just the fun and sillinessthat we, you know, we can all
tend to miss out on when wedesperately are trying to
achieve something.
Sue Anstiss (09:06):
And it feels like from the outside looking in, but
that's a culture of a wholeteam.
It really does feel likethere's a lot of fun being had
there.
So not that they weren't happyteams before, but do you feel
that's a distinctive shift inthis team in terms of the
culture?
Sarah Bern (09:20):
I think, yeah, isn't I don't think it was that we're
not happy.
I think people just reallywanting to work hard and be
professional.
I think rugby in particular,because at that point in time we
were very much seen as we haveto mimic the men in order for it
to be successful.
And it was like, oh well, youwhen you do media, you know,
these are your points in themedia, and like you can say this
(09:40):
much, but not too much.
And I think it's kind of verymuch that kind of stoic male
presence.
And I think, especially well,for me working with Alona at
Bristol Bears, Aloma, I kind ofwas like, people don't people
don't want that.
Like they want to see us, theywant to see who we are.
Um we we're not a big enough asa sport for us to be stoic and
(10:01):
and kind of all the same carboncopy because we need to grow our
sports, we need to entertainpeople, and that's what what
we're in.
We're in the entertainmentbusiness at the end of the day.
So actually kind of break thosebarriers.
You can be fun and silly, andyou can be incredibly
hard-working and verysuccessful.
They can both coexist.
And I think we all really lentinto that and thought if we're
having fun and we get to showour fun side, that will
(10:25):
ultimately show on the pitch.
Sue Anstiss (10:26):
Yeah, and clearly did.
And I love that Alan Gilpin,head of World Rugby, has said
actually the men's game needs tolearn a little bit from the
women and what we've been doing.
That's what we've all beenwaiting for in women's sport for
men to finally look across andsay they could emulate and do a
bit of what the women's game andwomen's sport has done too.
I mean, leading on from that,because obviously there's the
the piece about you as asuccessful team, but then how
(10:48):
that impacts the public too.
And you've said that thetournament obviously is more
than about winning, that it'sthe legacy.
So, how do you feel you hopethat the the World Cup will
impact women's rugby but women'ssport more broadly?
Sarah Bern (11:01):
Um, I think for women rugby, like it's proven
people want to come to games,people want to tune in on TV,
like some incredible stats, fivemillion, was that final and
twelve million in total reach,or like absolutely phenomenal
stats.
And like we could keep talkingabout it, but selling out
Twickenham Stadium, selling outother venues that we have been
(11:23):
in the whole World Cup, like theappetite is there.
So I think as from a rugbyplayer's perspective, like I
hope people invest in in women'srugby and see it as a like you
say, it's its own identity, itsown creation.
We can take it wherever we wantto take it.
Like, yes, the rules of thegame are the same as the men's,
(11:43):
but everything around that canbe different.
It can be whatever we want itto be, and we can make it
entertaining for people to comeand enjoy and watch.
So that's that's one thing, butalso hopefully showing young
girls and young boys, oractually to be honest, anyone,
that they have a place in in theworld, and that's something
really close to my heart, isthat you can be tall, big,
(12:05):
small, short, strong, fast,like, and there's the place for
you on that rugby pitch.
And even if it if you're noneof those things and you're not
sporty, seeing how much fun thatall the teams have had, you
know, get involved in that.
And you can be a team manager,you can be nutritionist, you can
be SNC, you can be logisticsmanager.
Like, there's so many roles forpeople to get involved in
(12:25):
sport, but like the main thingis the connection and bringing a
whole community of peopletogether to celebrate something
that is pretty fun and cool towatch.
And if anything, like I feellike we all just wander this
planet looking for joy.
So why not why not keep sharingthat?
Sue Anstiss (12:41):
That's my motto in life, follow the joy.
That is my strapline.
So I love that.
You that's the same two there.
I just to talk a little bitabout your journey in in rugby
specifically.
So you moved from that back rowposition into being a
tight-haired prop.
So quite different positions.
How did that change how youfelt uh as an athlete and and
your kind of role within theteam?
Sarah Bern (13:02):
Um, yeah, so I actually I first started, I was
always a bigger kid.
You wouldn't notice I wasreally big, but I was always
bigger and broader and taller,and like I just even my head,
like I've got a giant head.
Like I'm just born bigger, andthat's I was literally just born
like that.
So for me, it was like growingup.
I started as a as a proper, gotput there first straight away,
(13:24):
just based on appearance, andthen then started playing.
And then they were, oh no, no,no, move her to number eight,
she's a really good ballcarrier.
And then actually, because Idid a lot of athletics when I
was younger, not like to highstandard, but I just really
enjoyed running and doing alldifferent types of sports.
So, yeah, then in secondaryschool moved to centre, so I
played a lot of my childhood inthe centres.
Um, even I think I've playedlike 10 and 9 for county at some
(13:47):
points, which had never put mein a nine shirt, never.
That's not that's not mystrength, but you know, got to
try, yeah.
And then yeah, I settled as aback rower in Ungled and 20s,
and I still had this like giantpair of shoulders on me.
And the coach came in and waslike, I I want to make you a
tighthead, and I was like, Yeah,no, thank you.
(14:07):
Don't want to do that.
And um, Matt Ferguson, he wasour coach at the time, so he
left and he came back.
But the issue was I was reallygood at all the body management
stuff, the like littleindividual skills we do, which
is bare course.
I don't know, I won't get tootechnical, but I I just really
enjoyed that bit of like bodymovement.
So he came back in, he waslike, Lit, like, I've got some
injuries and I really need atighthead.
(14:29):
And he was like, I'm not sayingthat you would never play for
England as a back row becauselike you're a good player, but
I've got loads of really goodback row players right now.
But I need a tighthead, and Ithink I can get you there
quickly.
And I said no again.
What did you not want at thetime?
What was it?
I didn't want to be a prop.
There was a stigma of kind oflike the kind of old lads' clubs
(14:49):
that it was always your yourbigger men, you and that no
offense to them, absolutelylovely guys, but like I didn't
see that as a feminine role, Ididn't see that as a powerful
role, like where now you look atit and you go, Wow, look at the
props, you've got LSN, you'vegot you know Hannah Bottom and
you've got all these playersthat are really strong and
(15:09):
powerful and and fast.
So, but at the time you youdidn't really have too much of
that.
So I didn't I didn't want it,and I had a big thing about I
was always bigger and I didn'twant to be bigger, I wanted to
be smaller, I wanted to be theshape that people find or
associate with femininely andlike uh beautiful and that kind
(15:30):
of those body images standardsthat those kind of ideals that
get pressed on to kids or womenof of any age, to be honest, not
just not just children.
And I did grow up around someeating disorders, some
difficulties with shape, and youknow, my family were heavily
involved in in dance and fashionand I wanted to continue to,
(15:53):
you know, be like be like myfamily and enjoy and I'd do
that.
And I I didn't see myself inthat.
I n I didn't see anyone wholooked like me ever.
Sue Anstiss (16:01):
What age?
What around what age were youwere you not first aware of that
and and wanting to always.
I remember being little.
Sarah Bern (16:08):
I I did ballet but I had a little pop belly.
Like I wasn't I wasn't big, Ijust had a little pop belly and
um had big broad shoulders.
And I just remember being likeI don't look like I don't look
like everyone here.
You got sisters, you're s yougot two sisters.
They're ten years older thanme.
So okay.
When I was little, they wereobviously in their teenage
years.
(16:28):
And yeah, I just rememberlooking at like magazines and
stuff and being like, I don'tlook like that.
Why do I not look like that?
Or like the clothes wouldn'tfit me right.
Like it wasn't that theywouldn't necessarily they
wouldn't fit, they just didn'tfit like right the way that they
meant.
So I think I was very consciousof that from a young age, and I
think when I went to secondaryschool, that's when you know
when you're most insecure, isn'tit?
(16:48):
When you first go to secondaryschool and you're trying to meet
new friends, and you're alsoyour body's changing anyway, and
you want to fit in, you'redesperately trying to fit in,
which is so crazy because whenyou get to university, you're
desperately trying to stand out.
It is such a bizarre concept,but um yeah, and I I struggled
with with diet and andovertraining and uh lost loads
(17:09):
of weight actually, but it gotreally praised, like it got
praised because you know that'swhat society, you know, sees as
you know, healthy and fit.
But the reality was I wasn'thealthy and fit.
I I was definitely fit becauseI was doing loads of exercise,
but it wasn't in a healthy way.
And I remember going to rugbycamp and I was terrible at
rugby.
I was getting absolutely shotleft, right, and centre.
(17:30):
I couldn't ball carry, and thatwas my strength was ball
carrying.
And I remember like sitting upand talking to my friend at the
time in the ch in the like dormroom, and I was like, I think I
gotta eat more food.
I was like, I'm way too tired.
I am, and that's when I reallystarted to like dial in on body
image and actually being anathlete is more than what you
look like, and that's why I wasso stubborn to move to Thai prop
(17:54):
because I felt like I'd reallycome away from that.
But then yeah, Matt Ferguson,he sat me down, he was like,
Okay, look, like I give you adeal.
If you do this for me, I willget you to a World Cup.
And I was like, obviously 18years old, like bit cocky, and I
was like, I'll do it, buthandshake, you have to make me
the best prop in the world.
(18:14):
I'm not doing it.
And then he he went hand and Iwent, uh, and also I want to
play sevens because that's Iwanted to play in the Olympics.
That was my dream.
Like I want to be a sevensplayer.
And he was like, Yeah, fine,fine, fine.
So he shook my hand, and thenI've not played sevens since
2017, but he definitely and hedefinitely did a good job at
teaching me how to be a tighthead prop.
So fair, fair play to him.
Sue Anstiss (18:36):
And you've got this reputation for being one of the
most explosive props in thegame.
So I think that it that'sfascinating, isn't it?
That playing style of beingable to combine both, that's
almost what makes you unique butvery different to others out
there.
So, how do you train?
Because I feel like slightlydifferent in terms of that
training for power and strengthversus training for speed, the
(18:58):
part that you're so renownedfor.
Um, I love speed training.
Sarah Bern (19:02):
Like I absolutely love it.
I'm not one of those foolswhere they're like, oh, we're
doing speed today, and they go,Oh no, I can't do it.
I love it.
Like, I love learning how to doit properly.
I was I was really like quitenot in a bad way, but I was very
geeky around how do I becomelike the best.
Like I just genuinely wantedthis inner drive since I was
about, I don't know, reallylittle, but I think for rugby
(19:24):
specifically, probably from theage of like 12, where I was
like, I'm I'm gonna I rememberif I didn't have a game, I'd set
up a obstacle course where Iwould just get tackling.
Yeah, like mum would lookoutside and why she's just
running in circles outside, likein the garden.
So I was just very driven.
Sue Anstiss (19:39):
Um Is that your personality generally that
you're want something and you'llgo for it?
Sarah Bern (19:44):
And yeah, I like I would say all my family are very
hardworking, so I think thatwas kind of in instilled in us,
but also we enjoy like havingfun at the same time.
So I think that's the bit whereI kind of leant way too hard at
like being so driven, and nowI'm kind of you know getting
getting the funnel element backinto it.
So yeah, no, I was so so drivenwhen I was a youngster.
(20:06):
Well, and even now, I'm stilldriven, but I guess my my goals
have slightly shifted a littlebit.
Sue Anstiss (20:11):
And for those of us that have never been in the
scrum like me, can you I guesstake us a little bit into the
psychology?
Because I think it is afascinating area of the game
that others you know we we'veall run and we've all kicked
balls, but actually to be in thescrum, what happens in those
those moments before theopposing teams meet?
What's the psychology going onthere?
Sarah Bern (20:30):
It's actually very interesting because most if you
speak to I don't know, maybe abacks coach or someone, not to
name it, Lou Meadows, and shejust like that all you do is
bend over, don't you?
Just bend over and push, ha haha ha.
Like, and then you've got likeyour flankers behind you, like
screaming, like, yeah, scram.
But actually for me, you youhave that inner element of like,
(20:52):
yeah, like scram, I'm gonnadominate, like I'm gonna
dominate you.
But it's actually more of achess game.
It's very, very strategic insetup.
It's because you're workingwith eight people, but
realistically, you've got threepeople at the front that are
gonna control where this goes,and the back five are this raw
power coming through the middleof it.
So you're the drivers of thatpower.
It's very much okay.
(21:12):
Did I get the what's myprocess?
So you could like foot, bind,head, whatever that looks like
for you.
Calm, and then when it's likeyou're there, it's then the
aggression to snap and hold itthere because it's
uncomfortable.
I'm not gonna lie.
It's uncomfortable.
Sue Anstiss (21:26):
As in pain, is painful or just is discomfort?
Sarah Bern (21:29):
No, no, no, it's not painful, it's just you imagine
doing like a maximum squat andyou're at the bottom of maximum
squat, and then you're alsoplaying chess at the same time,
but you're also like quiteaggressively playing chess,
you're just like it is more is aposition n you're never in in
day-to-day life.
So it is something that youreally do have to train, and
(21:51):
it's never gonna go perfect,never ever.
And once you get one scrum andyou've like, oh, I've worked
this out, I'm gonna get themagain.
Someone else has changedsomething, and you know, you
might be going backwards at thatpoint.
So it's um it's a real learninggame.
It is a dark arts, andsometimes it's just about
painting good pictures forreferees.
Sue Anstiss (22:10):
Yeah, we hear that a lot from the commentary, don't
we?
And and do you enjoy it?
Do you like are you pleasedwhen there's a scrum?
Yeah, I am.
Well, uh depend where it is inthe game.
Sarah Bern (22:22):
Ten scrums will write anything getting higher,
not for many things, no.
But I'm more of a runnerthough, so I love playing
attacking rugby.
So if there's like 20 minutesof the game where there's no
scrums, I'm in my element, I'mgoing, great, I feel so fit and
ready to go.
As soon as there's a scrum,because the weight the weight of
it takes it out of your legs.
Like and then you've got thenine going, get round the
corner, get round the corner.
(22:42):
You're like, you get round thecorner, I'm seeing stars.
But yeah, no, it is good.
I I love I've always lovedlearning, like I was saying,
like about the speed and thepower and stuff.
Like, I really enjoy essence,it's just strength and
conditioning, and all that kindof uh in-depth knowledge about
it.
So like I do enjoy it, yeah.
Sue Anstiss (22:59):
And we talked earlier, you talked about that
that fact that rugby is such anamazing sport because it really
thrives on body diversity, andyou have become this really
visible role model, as Imentioned in the introduction,
but for strong muscular,aesthetic women and you're
regularly sharing posts now.
So, how important do you thinkit is that representation across
social media to to younger,it's not younger women, but
(23:22):
women of all ages?
Sarah Bern (23:23):
Uh so I think it's so important, and I think got to
a point where I was like, well,if I'm feeling like this, I you
know, I've a household ofwomen, I live in a household of
women like my families, butpredominantly women, and I mean
that my sisters look totallydifferent to me, and they still
have the same insecurities, justworded a different way.
So I was like, if you feel likethat, and I feel like that,
(23:45):
well, there must be so manywomen, and I've never ever met a
a woman that's truly, trulygone, uh loved everything about
me.
Like, I just don't think it'sin our nature.
Like we are as as like women,we don't believe in ourselves
massively, and it's becausesociety's just not set set up
for us to have that kind ofinnate belief in ourselves, and
(24:06):
actually we do have to tellourselves, and it's not easy to
when to wake up every day andgo, Oh, I love myself, I'm gonna
be great today, I'm a greatperson.
Like, that's just not lifebecause life is so can be
difficult, and things come up,and you always got a little
voice in the back of your headgoing, I don't know if I can do
this, I don't know if I can dothis.
But I think for me, what Irealized is is that why don't we
(24:27):
share that more?
Because it is very easy tothink, oh, that's just in my
head.
But they don't have it.
Look how amazing they are, theydon't have those thoughts, and
that's not that's not true atall.
Like everybody has thoughts andinsecurities, so why don't we
share them a bit more?
And actually, maybe me doingthat, I might help you know some
younger kids growing up who hadhad have that pressure.
(24:50):
I think it's even worse nowwith social media, have a
pressure to kind of be perfect,and it's so funny that we all
chase perfection because it'snot it's not real, it's not
there, and also if we were meantto be perfect, we would be, but
the whole world is created ofimperfection.
And actually, if you look atlike the seven wonders of the
world or whatever, the naturalwonders, they're wonderful
(25:12):
because they are so unique anddifferent.
So it's crazy that we celebratein nature things that are so
different, so amazing, butwithin ourselves and in society,
it's kind of we banish, webanish it.
We don't want it, we wanteveryone to look the same.
And I just think that's youknow, I I just want to bring
that element back actually, justbecause you're different
(25:33):
doesn't mean you're notbeautiful.
It doesn't mean your your worthis any less.
Sue Anstiss (25:37):
And your your posts have been so powerful.
My kids have told me about, youknow, um whether it's the
TikToks, but all that you'resharing, I think it was about a
year ago you said you were kindof anxious about showing
yourself online, but you seem tohave completely embraced that
now on social media.
So what was the turning pointthen?
You mentioned Alona Ma, herpresence at Bristol Bears, in
(25:57):
fact, her whole family hasclearly had a huge kind of
impact.
So what did she unlock for youpersonally?
Was it was that the tippingpoint for you?
Sarah Bern (26:05):
Yeah, I think so.
I think um when Elona firstcame into Bristol, she was a
huge, you know, star.
She was a big, I always waslike, you know, someone saying,
Oh, Jennifer Anderson's comingto train with you.
Like, you're like, well, likein the rugby world, like she's
massive.
So um when she came in, but shewas the first, I guess, kind of
star that I've ever met, likeon a close level, where she was
(26:28):
exactly, she's exactly the sameas how she presents on social
media.
She's there's there's nodifferent.
Like, and it's the same withall her family.
And that's why I say like herfamily are lovely as well,
because what you see on socialmedia, that is that is them, and
they're just a really likegorgeous group of people that
when you spend time with them,like you feel, you know, you
they bring you up, they pumpyour tires, like, as well as
(26:49):
like you're going around going,wow, you're amazing.
Like, they they literallythat's just how they are as
people, so they're like littlerays of sunshine.
And I think I was like, Wow,you you can just be who you are,
like you don't have to fit intothings, like you don't have to
make yourself small, you don'thave to do what people sit like
say all the time, like you canjust be you and be really strong
(27:09):
and brave within that.
There's like a real kind ofbrave element to being so
vulnerable with with things, andthat's actually how you change
the world.
Like, and I think what yougoing back to your point about
like uh me being anxious aboutlike negative comments and
things like that.
Well, if you're making realchange, people aren't gonna
agree.
And I think that's why I kindof leaned into it.
(27:30):
If if people weren't commentingcertain things, well, I'm not
saying that they should, but youknow, people want to give their
opinion, and everyone has thefreedom to do that, and that's
the great thing about the world.
But it means that uh we'recatching their attention,
there's a conversation happeningthere, and actually we might
change some minds along the way.
So, yeah, negativity is nevergreat, and obviously there's a
there's a point where you go,okay, that's that's enough now.
(27:52):
But actually, the fact thatwe're even getting comments like
that is creating conversation,creating change.
Sue Anstiss (27:57):
It does feel like such a genuine friendship, and
you've clearly got such respectfor each other as as players as
well.
Uh do you still struggle withyour self-image today?
Is that still something thatyou have to overcome?
Sarah Bern (28:10):
Yeah, for sure.
And I'm pretty sure like Ilonaprobably does every day as well.
Like we're we are women, likewe are still women, we're not
superheroes.
And actually, sometimes, youknow, I look at my own post and
go, oh, wait, wait, why are yougetting grumpy or why why why
are you annoyed that this shirtis like looks a bit funny on
this bit of like it's so easy tobecome so fixated on the way we
(28:32):
look and is and it it's becausethe world is built to is the
world is built like that, andthat you know, that's okay.
But also you've got to rememberthe most amazing things that
you're doing outside of that.
And that's why the the positivecomments on social media, the
amount of amazing messages Iget, the amount of amazing
people I've got to meet, and um,you know, that have inspired me
(28:52):
by you know having theopportunity to meet them, like
that's why I want to do it.
And hopefully, okay, maybe yes,generations that have passed
never had the opportunity tofeel confident in their own skin
because they didn't have rolemodels.
And you know, I didn't havenecessarily have a role model
either, like Alona.
But if me, Alona, other people,other rugby girls or anyone
(29:12):
really can start talking aboutit, well, hopefully it will
create a generation in I don'tknow, 20 years' time that go,
nah, we're we're prettycomfortable with how we we are,
and just because you'redifferent to me doesn't mean
you're you're any less valuable.
Sue Anstiss (29:25):
Yeah, it's fantastic.
And obviously, that drivingsocial change and attitudes is
really important.
But Elohim has also been reallyfrank about the fact that the
social media following andengagement, it's that element
that enables her tocommercialise her involvement in
the sport too, because she'snot going to do it just through
playing the sport,unfortunately.
So is there an element of thatas to your approach with that or
(29:47):
other red roses too?
Seeing that as an opportunity,the commercial side?
Sarah Bern (29:51):
Yeah, definitely.
I think it's I think it wouldbe silly to say for any woman
sport athlete, and there's acrazy fact, I can't remember
exactly, but it's something.
Like 90% of women, femaleathletes, rely on as like
three-quarters of their incomeis for commercial value.
Something, something like that.
Sue Anstiss (30:09):
The men's is the anti is the opposite of that,
isn't it?
The men's is that they'regetting their money from playing
their sport rather than theirstuff up.
I s I heard that quite recentlytoo.
I was blown away.
Yeah.
Sarah Bern (30:18):
It's so wild because we don't get that much coverage
either.
So you're thinking about howhard all these female athletes
are working to get those dealsto be successful, have that
life.
And on the flip side, it's justit's totally opposite.
And so, yeah, definitely peoplewanna we we want to close that,
close the gap.
Like we would love for it to beequal and women treated
(30:40):
equally.
But that's just again, that'sjust not not where we are right
now.
So yeah, working in thosecommercial spaces.
Also, if we're in commercialspaces, we're in mainstream
sport, in mainstream, you know,media, more more people we can
help help and hopefullyencourage them to come to rugby
because like I say, there's aplace for everyone there.
So the more joy we can spread.
Sue Anstiss (31:01):
And you mentioned that mainstream media, but in
the build-up to the tournament,you were featured in Vogue and
you've partnered with Barbie.
So how does that feel?
Is that a bit surreal to be inthose places and for women's
rugby to be celebrated in thoseplaces too?
That was the most wildest weekof my life.
Sarah Bern (31:17):
I mean, until until recently, yeah.
We yeah I had a call aboutwell, it all started actually
after Six Nations, and I had acall that I was in the Pride
Independence Pride list, and Iwas like, oh wow, thinking
that's really cool.
I I didn't know too much aboutit.
And then I was like, looking, Iwas like, Elton John's on this
list.
I was like, I ranked higherthan Elton John on the Pride
(31:39):
list.
I was like, what's happeninghere?
Um and I like I said, because Igenuinely just want to be my
authentic self, and if thathelps people, that helps people.
It was amazing to be a part ofthat.
And then following on from thatBarbie, we're like, Oh, we
really want you to to be on theBarbie shoot, and that was just
I just never thought that ever.
I I never saw myself as aBarbie.
Like never ever.
(31:59):
So like the fact that I don'twant to get emotional, but like
the fact that then yeah, you doyeah.
I think um give me a second.
The fact that like there was anopportunity to show young kids
with something that's soprevalent, like Barbie, being
the sponsor for that, that yougenuinely can be whoever you
(32:20):
are, as and whoever you want tobe, and you can still be
beautiful, sexy, and all thatkind of thing that's associated
with Barbie, like was just like,yeah.
Sue Anstiss (32:29):
So you can see it means so much, yeah.
And what means so much for somany other girls that are coming
to the you know, are coming tothat for the first time.
It's so powerful.
Sarah Bern (32:39):
And the same with Vogue, yeah.
So top fashion magazine, andlike grew up around fashion.
I absolutely love it.
So that was like a realmilestone.
And also it was kind of nice togo to my sister who used to
work in the fashion industry, belike, hey.
Sue Anstiss (32:51):
Have you been in Vogue?
Yeah.
Sarah Bern (32:54):
That was pretty cool as well.
You got good bragging rights.
Sue Anstiss (32:57):
And talking to fashion, so you've launched a
new Prime Below the shoulder.
Tell us a little bit aboutthat.
What inspired you and some ofthe other players to come
together in that space?
Sarah Bern (33:06):
So, what uh what inspired us was um firstly Emma
Swords, she is my best friendsince we were 12 years old.
We played rugby together.
Sue Anstiss (33:13):
Oh, I didn't know that.
That is so lovely.
Sarah Bern (33:15):
So we first met at London Irish.
I think she's a year older thanme, so she might have been like
13, 14, and I was 12 yearsolder, and we just were best
friends since then.
So um we've not always beenlike close because obviously
rugby takes you here, there, andeverywhere.
But we've always been, she's weshe calls herself my constant.
But I d I don't know if she'smeant you meant to give yourself
the that slogan, but yeah, no,yeah.
(33:37):
So she's um she's like lovely,absolutely like my rock.
So we were thinking, we werewatching like kind of we were
like there's no real likefashion rugby, like you see
football and fashion now, hugelike football shirts everywhere.
I mean like it's not reallyhappening with rugby too much.
Yes, you have the rugby stylekind of vintage shirts, but I
(33:58):
feel like we can really pushthis more.
And Emma came up with thisdeck, and we were like, Well,
yeah, why not?
And Jess and Zoe were like,We're in, like, we want to be,
they love fashion as well.
So they were like, we want tomake a brand that people can
relate to, that is rugby, but itwas also really cool and
stylish, and let's take rugby,like we say, into mainstream
(34:20):
fashion because football's doneit, so why can't we?
And that's kind of how it wasborn.
Um in terms of the four of you,with Jess Breach and Zoe
Harrison.
And um, yeah, so then we we itwas very quick turnaround to get
it before well cut becausethere's like commercial
restrictions on it.
Got it all done, got it off,and yeah, it kind of exploded,
(34:40):
which was really cool.
Um, and now we're we're gonnamake some more products, TBC,
coming out of just somethingsome different.
It'll still be like that kindof stylish, kind of magazine
shoot kind of style that wereally want to push, but it will
definitely all still be rugby.
Sue Anstiss (34:56):
And the lovely, the kind of irreverent logos.
I mean that's a piece about it,isn't it?
That it's a bit nottongue-in-cheek, but I like
that.
That's the element about itthat makes it so cool.
Sarah Bern (35:05):
Yeah, and that's what you know, you look at the
you look at your rock and rollstars, you look at like your pop
stars, it's all a little bitrebellious, it's all a little
bit kind of reframing whatwhat's should be right and what
should be wrong, or evenactually getting rid of all
labels.
And we kind of wanted to be apart of that rebellious.
We all are in our own way alittle bit rebellious anyway, so
we thought there's so muchtongue-in-cheek in rugby anyway,
(35:26):
so let's make it fashionable.
Sue Anstiss (35:28):
I love that.
I love that.
I had to fight hard last nightto get myself one of the uh feel
the burn t-shirts at So Londonand on Regent Street.
They saw that of every size.
I literally did more stockcoming today.
And apparently they had a queueoutside the store on Sunday
morning after the game onSaturday with girls wanting to
get Red Roses merch for thefuture.
So how it's just so wonderful.
(35:48):
I mean, how how does that makeyou feel as a player to know
there is that whole othermarket?
And actually, we saw thatobviously the the hats and the
everything else around it, butyou could just see I I love that
there's so much variety ofplayers creating their own
things and new opportunities.
Sarah Bern (36:03):
Yeah, I think it's I think it's brilliant.
Like honestly blown away thatthere was cues trying to get
into the store.
It's a really cool story.
It's a great idea in the firstplace because why shouldn't we
celebrate the summer of sport?
Like, why shouldn't we buymerchandise?
And it was a really coolopportunity that just popped up
and we were like, cool, let'srun with it.
And then it it went crazy andwe'll keep running out of stock.
(36:24):
I've got so many messages like,can you get more stock?
I'm like, yeah, let me figurethat out.
I don't know how.
Sue Anstiss (36:29):
But yeah, I'm trying to also train and play
for winning a World Cup andeverything else, but leave it
with me.
Interviews.
Sarah Bern (36:34):
I was like, share your message, let me forward it
on.
Like because my friend, IzzyNor Smith, actually, she uh used
to play for England, she wasthe back row from Bristol Bears
as well.
She was like, She's like, mate,there's no kid sizes.
And I was like, hang on aminute, let's sort that out.
So literally, then the next daythose kid sizes up on the
website.
Sue Anstiss (36:50):
So they tried to offer me a child size yesterday.
Yeah, I was I don't know what Iwas thinking when I tried that
on in the change room, but yeah.
Sarah Bern (36:56):
Well, they are oversized, so you know.
Sue Anstiss (36:58):
Yeah, even so.
Sarah Bern (37:00):
Yeah, it's been crazy.
And like that just shows aswell.
Again, there's such acommercial appetite, there's
such a demand for learning abouteach individual person, not
just the player, but them aspeople.
Like, what what could theydesign?
What would that look like?
And it it's just everythingthat we have seems to be like
everything that we've touched asred roses has just shot off the
(37:22):
shelves.
So maybe in like like I wassaying, like how we have the
men's game and the women's game,and they get compared really
easily.
It's all about ticket sales,bums on seats.
And actually, I wonder in thewomen's game, you know, who's
the biggest consumers?
Women and families andchildren, and who's our biggest
market?
Women's family and children.
So actually, maybe if we focusmore on the commercial element
(37:43):
and change kind of thatfinancial element of it, we'll
get more investment into oursport, we'll get more nations
having more support behind them.
I mean, the Irish girls withtheir um fleeces.
Oh my god, I know.
That was amazing, wasn't it?
Absolutely phenomenal.
And like that again, that showslike they have done so well
this year, and like they haveone item of kit that like have
(38:04):
just gone wild.
Like, sell them, commercialiseit, get it out, get more back
in.
Sue Anstiss (38:08):
Should you say what happened there?
There was there was a people atthe there were people at games
holding up like free the fleeceof holding things, and then then
they eventually got a uh a lowload of them made and they was
like sold out in an hour and allsizes.
It was incredible.
Sarah Bern (38:22):
It just shows like there's such a demand for it,
and hopefully that makes it moreappealing to sponsors, and
hopefully that means that we canget more professional female
athletes and we can really startto push our game forward.
Sue Anstiss (38:32):
And and obviously we've said that the women's game
is changing so fast and growingso fast, but if you could pick
one change that you'd like tosee kind of globally or
domestically, that would movethe needle even faster for the
game, what what would that be?
Oh, that's such a trickyquestion.
Throwing that in the end.
Sarah Bern (38:50):
Um, it's a great question.
It's a very good question.
Uh I think I can't pick, I'vegot so many thoughts going
through my head.
The one thing I would like tochange, I think definitely the
one that's probably the biggestelephant in the room is that
gender equality, no matter whatthat looks like.
So whether that's infinancially or even just
(39:11):
opinions about how maybe womenaren't as big, so then they
don't work as hard because it'sless energy.
Like, you know, things likecrazy things like that, or
women's Easter gym will put offmen and stuff like that.
Like it's just I yeah, it'sthat would be the biggest thing
for me is just to be seen as anathlete that ha what is
happening on the pitch and notas a as a gender.
(39:33):
I think, but that that's notjust in rugby, that's in in all
sports across the world.
And if we can get thatequality, kind of that stigma uh
attached, or even like get thatarchaic view out of the way.
I think women's sport, italready is taking off, but I
think it will launch not onlywomen's sport, it will launch
men's and women's.
Like it will help everyonegrow.
(39:54):
So let's go for it.
Sue Anstiss (39:56):
It's really interesting, isn't it?
Stuff within women's sport atthe moment where it's like,
well, we need to bring the malefans across because and I've
always thought, but yeah, we do,if they want to watch, but
actually there's this massiveaudience that's never come to
sport, has never really seensport.
And I think from the sales ofthe merchandise and the people
in the turns, and yeah, theirdads and boyfriends can come
with them.
But actually, there's thishuge, untapped audience of of
(40:17):
fans out there that haven'treally had sport at all.
And women's sport can be theplace where they feel included
and connected and all thosethings that we saw in the
stadium.
Yeah, definitely.
Sarah Bern (40:26):
And there's no judgment, like if you don't know
the rules, no one no one caresbecause there's a great song
about to come on when someonescores a try.
Like, that's absolutely fine,and that's kind of what we want.
I think, yeah, it's so nice toto be there.
And there were so many peopleat Battersea.
We were very fortunate to go toBattersea Palace Station to
lift the trophy.
And there was people in thecrowds there that were like, I
(40:46):
don't know any of the rules, Idon't know what a prop is, but I
really like you and I like theteam.
And that's like you're like,great, like come along.
We we want everyone there forthe ride.
So yeah, I that's what I dolove about that.
Sue Anstiss (40:58):
And just finally, when people talk about Sarah
Burn in the future, in 10 years,couple of decades time, what do
you hope that they will sayabout what you help to change in
the in the game or society?
Sarah Bern (41:09):
Um I think my real passion is that I just I just
help people to feel like theycan be themselves.
I think that's probably it.
Like, oh, like she inspired mejust to, you know, be myself and
go and it go and attack lifebecause you know, like life's
tricky anyway.
We don't need to beat ourselvesup around as well.
(41:29):
And I just hope people realisethat if they can do that, and
it's definitely hard for so manypeople, that you know, the
their potential is limitless.
I just yeah, I want people tobe kinder to themselves and
therefore kinder to each other.
Sue Anstiss (41:48):
Well, I hope I wasn't fangirling too much
there, but what an incredibleathlete and human being Sarah
Bern is.
It's been my pleasure to talkto a number of rugby legends for
The Game Changers Podcast, sodo get back and you can find
episodes with the likes of SueDay, Maggie Alphonosi Shaunagh
Brown, Sarah Hunter, Mo Hunt,Emma Mitchell, Giselle Mather,
(42:09):
and Lisa O'Keefe.
In fact, there are over 200episodes of the Game Changers
that are all free to listen toon podcast platforms or from our
website at fearlesswomen.co.uk.
Guests include elite athletesalong with coaches,
broadcasters, scientists,journalists and CEOs, all women
who are changing the game insport.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
(42:32):
can also find out more about theWomen's Sport Collective, a
free, inclusive community forall women working in sport.
We now have over 14,000 membersacross the world, so please do
come and join us.
The whole of my book, Game On,The Unstoppable Rise of Women's
Sport, is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Every episode of series 13 isme reading a chapter of the
(42:55):
book.
Thank you to Sport England, whoback the Game Changers and the
Women's Sport Collective, with aNational Lottery Award.
Thank you also to Sam Walker atWhat Goes On Media, who does
such a great job as ourexecutive producer, and thank
you to my brilliant colleague atFearless Women, Kate Hannon.
You can find the Game Changerson all podcast platforms, so
(43:20):
please follow us now to ensureyou don't miss out on future
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Do come and say hello on socialmedia where you'll find me on
LinkedIn and Instagram at SueAnstiss.
The Game Changers.
It's phenomenal, but we're speechless.
Like we're lost for ways toactually get your hands on that
trophy is pure joy, but relief,but excitement, but like so many
different emotions, and justlike not only have we won this
World Cup that we have workedincredibly hard for, like, we're
hopefully changing the game forwomen's rugby and helping women
(00:26):
sport all over the world.
Sue Anstiss (00:33):
Today in The Game Changes, I'm joined by Sarah
Bern, one of the most celebratedplayers in World Rugby.
A World Cup winner with the redroses and a cornerstone of
Bristol Bear's front row.
Sarah's renowned for herexplosive running game, her
dominance in the scrum and herfearless leadership on and off
the pitch.
But Sarah's story is about morethan winning medals.
(00:55):
From struggling with body imageas a teenager to becoming a
proud role model for strong,muscular women, Sarah has
reshaped perceptions of what afemale athlete can look like.
She's inspiring the nextgeneration not just with her
performances, but with herhonesty, courage, and her joy
for the game of rugby.
So, Sarah, firstly, massivecongratulations.
(01:21):
Winning the World Cup atTwickenham in front of 82,000.
What did that moment mean toyou personally as you finally
got your hands on that beautifultrophy?
Well, firstly, thank you forthat lovely introduction.
Sarah Bern (01:32):
I don't think I've ever heard anyone say all those
nice things about me.
So I'm scaring up a little bit.
No, I'm very flattered.
But yeah, winning the trophy.
First of all, the 82,000, likeabsolutely incredible.
When we got the bus in, it wasjust phenomenal, like the
streets were full.
And when we got the 60,000,that was really special when we
played against France.
(01:53):
And it was the first time wethought, wow, like people are
interested and invested in us.
But coming into the 80,000, wehad the cues of people on the
floor, but the stands, it was upon the stand and around the
south stand spiral staircase.
It's amazing, wasn't it?
Heads everywhere looking overthe balcony.
And that, like, there's thaticonic picture that I think um
(02:14):
our our lovely media peopletook.
And I wore it literally,remember that we were all sat on
the bus going, wow, look upthere, like that's phenomenal.
And just our fans are amazing,like they're so amazing.
They just want us to do well.
And I think that's reallyspecial as well, with the World
Cup final and England being init.
It was essentially it lookedlike a stadium full of about
(02:35):
80,000 English fans, and like2,000 of every other nation.
It was an incredibleexperience, and it hasn't even
sunk in.
Like, I I I've been asked alot, and everyone has, and and
we've probably all got the sameanswer.
Like, it's phenomenal, butwe're speechless.
Like, we're lost for words toactually get your hands on that
trophy is pure joy, but relief,but excitement, but like so many
(03:00):
different emotions, and justlike proud to like be able to
represent our country and say,look, guys, like not only have
we won this World Cup that wehave worked incredibly hard for,
like, we're hopefully changingthe game for women's rugby and
helping women sport all over theworld.
Sue Anstiss (03:17):
Absolutely.
And is there a moment youtalked about that seeing the
Southstand with everyone lookingover as the coach came in, but
is there another snapshot memoryof the game that you think will
stay with you forever as youkind of look back in your old
age?
Sarah Bern (03:31):
I think for me personally, like coming on to a
game where you know we were alittle bit in front, but we
weren't massively in front, andit was a little bit of a oh a
Canada coming back in and havingit being a scrum, and I think
it's like um you know, when youget subbed on, you're like the
one thing you don't want to gostraight into is a scrum because
it's like the ultimate pressurepoint.
(03:51):
So um we came on and we got thethat amazing penalty, and for
me, I just remember thinkinglike this ball of excitement
just came over me and was likethis confidence of like let's go
and do it now.
And yeah, that was definitely adefying moment for me as a
front rower, obviously.
But um, I think just seeing ZoeOrcroft burst into tears and
(04:12):
just you know being herroommate, I know how how much
she gives everything like we alldo, but Zoe is just different
gravy since she was 17 yearsold, and there was a time where
you know she wasn't in the squadfor certain tournaments, and
now you think, wow, that's justabsolutely how could you ever
not take Zoe Oldcroft somewhereand she's she's the most amazing
(04:34):
captain we could have everasked for, and yeah, I'm just
yeah, so much joy to see herthat happy and just all that
emotion just released.
Sue Anstiss (04:43):
I loved it.
They're beautiful, happy, uglyproper tears, weren't they?
It was proper sobbing emotionaltears there.
I I love so much about the day.
I think for me, one of the mostpowerful moments was when the
camera, we were in the stadium,the camera panned to you all in
the tunnel.
I get goosebumps now, as you'rewaiting to walk out into the
stadium and just looking atpeople's faces, and we were out
there, so we knew the noise andthe just the sounds and the
(05:05):
sights, and I was thinking, ohwhat are you thinking?
So what were what were yourthoughts as you were there,
knowing you were coming out intothis cauldron, as it were?
Sarah Bern (05:13):
I think for me it was excitement.
I was like, This is everythingthat we have ever worked for,
not just for the last threeyears, but you know, to s to
sell out Twickenham Stadium fora home World Cup final, like
that is something, you know, notvery many players get to to be
a part of.
And also, you know, that'ssomething we've been working on
(05:34):
my whole nine, ten years of myEngland rugby career, like all
building up to that one point ofbecoming a World Cup champion.
So, you know, it wasexcitement.
I remember Maud, like, becauseof the amount of people there.
Maud literally turned to me andwas like, Oh, she was like, I I
I feel a bit wobbly.
And I was like, You'll begreat.
Don't don't like, don't worry,you're always great, Maud.
(05:55):
Like, you'll be amazing.
And she was like, No, not toplay, to that, I'm gonna cry in
the anthropomorph.
How lovely.
Cute.
I think it was just anoverwhelming amount of support
and excitement from the fans.
Like we felt that, and that youknow, that you can't help but
it brings out an emotion becauseyou're so proud and um thankful
for them and to be able to bein the position you are at that
(06:15):
point in time.
Sue Anstiss (06:16):
Yeah, absolutely.
You've obviously experiencedtwo previous World Cup finals
that didn't have such happyendings.
So, how did those memoriesimpact the way that you handled
this one?
Uh yeah, I've had quite ajourney, I think.
Sarah Bern (06:30):
When I was younger, I was very much, I'm gonna be
the best in the world and I'mgonna do everything.
And kind of that like JohnnyWilkinson mentality, need to do
everything, need to be the bestin the gym, best in nutrition,
or not in terms of likecompetitiveness, but more so for
me to be like, I've doneeverything I can do.
So we're playing in 2017, I wasa baby, I've didn't know how to
(06:50):
scrummage personally.
I just was put there and I waswinging it.
But it was great fun and Iloved it.
And I was playing with EmilyScarrot, Case Daly McLean,
Danielle Waterman, like allthese plays that I'd watched
growing up because I was verylucky to be at London Irish and
Isha Rugby Club, where theyplayed a lot.
You know, I was in total awe ofall of that.
So, first World Cup, reallyexciting, and I remember being
(07:12):
like, Well, I'm playing with allthese legends, so we're
definitely gonna win.
Like, because I was just likean 18-year-old.
I was like, obviously, likethese are the best plays ever.
Um and we did it, and I afterthat I thought, no, I'm gonna do
everything, and that's wherethat mentality came in.
And in 2022, it was obviouslytricky with COVID and all that
kind of uncertainty aroundwhat's it gonna look like?
Are we gonna play?
Are we not gonna play?
(07:32):
Have we trained enough?
Have we had the ability to havetime together?
That probably for me kind ofdrove it even more to be, I need
to be on it even more becausethere's all these different
distractions.
And we kind of came out withthe same result.
And I think I was a little bitlike like I've just spent so
much of my time so incrediblyfocused that I probably had a
(07:56):
lot of blind spots that I wasn'tprobably aware of, whether that
was I didn't see enough of myfamily or I didn't hang out with
friends enough and things likethat.
So I think I made a bigconscious effort because I was
so sad when we we lost thatWorld Cup final.
That actually, you know, thistime around I really want to
enjoy it.
I want to try and you knowenjoy the fans, enjoy the
experience.
(08:16):
Because you you never know,like it could go like that.
Injury or you know, selectionor whatever.
So this World Cup, yeah, I Ihad a significant knee injury
the last season.
So I missed out a big chunk ofEngland that in that time frame.
But then coming back, I thoughtI'm gonna relish in this.
Like I I want to be joyful, Iwant to enjoy, I want to be
(08:38):
confident in myself.
And actually, I found, youknow, doing things on social
media where you're having funwith the crowd and engaging with
people and like actually talkgenuinely talking to people
about their experiences helpedme to kind of find my feet in my
own skin, if that makes sense.
And um helped me, I think, tojust get the hard work right and
(09:00):
also just the fun and sillinessthat we, you know, we can all
tend to miss out on when wedesperately are trying to
achieve something.
Sue Anstiss (09:06):
And it feels like from the outside looking in, but
that's a culture of a wholeteam.
It really does feel likethere's a lot of fun being had
there.
So not that they weren't happyteams before, but do you feel
that's a distinctive shift inthis team in terms of the
culture?
Sarah Bern (09:20):
I think, yeah, isn't I don't think it was that we're
not happy.
I think people just reallywanting to work hard and be
professional.
I think rugby in particular,because at that point in time we
were very much seen as we haveto mimic the men in order for it
to be successful.
And it was like, oh well, youwhen you do media, you know,
these are your points in themedia, and like you can say this
(09:40):
much, but not too much.
And I think it's kind of verymuch that kind of stoic male
presence.
And I think, especially well,for me working with Alona at
Bristol Bears, Aloma, I kind ofwas like, people don't people
don't want that.
Like they want to see us, theywant to see who we are.
Um we we're not a big enough asa sport for us to be stoic and
(10:01):
and kind of all the same carboncopy because we need to grow our
sports, we need to entertainpeople, and that's what what
we're in.
We're in the entertainmentbusiness at the end of the day.
So actually kind of break thosebarriers.
You can be fun and silly, andyou can be incredibly
hard-working and verysuccessful.
They can both coexist.
And I think we all really lentinto that and thought if we're
having fun and we get to showour fun side, that will
(10:25):
ultimately show on the pitch.
Sue Anstiss (10:26):
Yeah, and clearly did.
And I love that Alan Gilpin,head of World Rugby, has said
actually the men's game needs tolearn a little bit from the
women and what we've been doing.
That's what we've all beenwaiting for in women's sport for
men to finally look across andsay they could emulate and do a
bit of what the women's game andwomen's sport has done too.
I mean, leading on from that,because obviously there's the
the piece about you as asuccessful team, but then how
(10:48):
that impacts the public too.
And you've said that thetournament obviously is more
than about winning, that it'sthe legacy.
So, how do you feel you hopethat the the World Cup will
impact women's rugby but women'ssport more broadly?
Sarah Bern (11:01):
Um, I think for women rugby, like it's proven
people want to come to games,people want to tune in on TV,
like some incredible stats, fivemillion, was that final and
twelve million in total reach,or like absolutely phenomenal
stats.
And like we could keep talkingabout it, but selling out
Twickenham Stadium, selling outother venues that we have been
(11:23):
in the whole World Cup, like theappetite is there.
So I think as from a rugbyplayer's perspective, like I
hope people invest in in women'srugby and see it as a like you
say, it's its own identity, itsown creation.
We can take it wherever we wantto take it.
Like, yes, the rules of thegame are the same as the men's,
(11:43):
but everything around that canbe different.
It can be whatever we want itto be, and we can make it
entertaining for people to comeand enjoy and watch.
So that's that's one thing, butalso hopefully showing young
girls and young boys, oractually to be honest, anyone,
that they have a place in in theworld, and that's something
really close to my heart, isthat you can be tall, big,
(12:05):
small, short, strong, fast,like, and there's the place for
you on that rugby pitch.
And even if it if you're noneof those things and you're not
sporty, seeing how much fun thatall the teams have had, you
know, get involved in that.
And you can be a team manager,you can be nutritionist, you can
be SNC, you can be logisticsmanager.
Like, there's so many roles forpeople to get involved in
(12:25):
sport, but like the main thingis the connection and bringing a
whole community of peopletogether to celebrate something
that is pretty fun and cool towatch.
And if anything, like I feellike we all just wander this
planet looking for joy.
So why not why not keep sharingthat?
Sue Anstiss (12:41):
That's my motto in life, follow the joy.
That is my strapline.
So I love that.
You that's the same two there.
I just to talk a little bitabout your journey in in rugby
specifically.
So you moved from that back rowposition into being a
tight-haired prop.
So quite different positions.
How did that change how youfelt uh as an athlete and and
your kind of role within theteam?
Sarah Bern (13:02):
Um, yeah, so I actually I first started, I was
always a bigger kid.
You wouldn't notice I wasreally big, but I was always
bigger and broader and taller,and like I just even my head,
like I've got a giant head.
Like I'm just born bigger, andthat's I was literally just born
like that.
So for me, it was like growingup.
I started as a as a proper, gotput there first straight away,
(13:24):
just based on appearance, andthen then started playing.
And then they were, oh no, no,no, move her to number eight,
she's a really good ballcarrier.
And then actually, because Idid a lot of athletics when I
was younger, not like to highstandard, but I just really
enjoyed running and doing alldifferent types of sports.
So, yeah, then in secondaryschool moved to centre, so I
played a lot of my childhood inthe centres.
Um, even I think I've playedlike 10 and 9 for county at some
(13:47):
points, which had never put mein a nine shirt, never.
That's not that's not mystrength, but you know, got to
try, yeah.
And then yeah, I settled as aback rower in Ungled and 20s,
and I still had this like giantpair of shoulders on me.
And the coach came in and waslike, I I want to make you a
tighthead, and I was like, Yeah,no, thank you.
(14:07):
Don't want to do that.
And um, Matt Ferguson, he wasour coach at the time, so he
left and he came back.
But the issue was I was reallygood at all the body management
stuff, the like littleindividual skills we do, which
is bare course.
I don't know, I won't get tootechnical, but I I just really
enjoyed that bit of like bodymovement.
So he came back in, he waslike, Lit, like, I've got some
injuries and I really need atighthead.
(14:29):
And he was like, I'm not sayingthat you would never play for
England as a back row becauselike you're a good player, but
I've got loads of really goodback row players right now.
But I need a tighthead, and Ithink I can get you there
quickly.
And I said no again.
What did you not want at thetime?
What was it?
I didn't want to be a prop.
There was a stigma of kind oflike the kind of old lads' clubs
(14:49):
that it was always your yourbigger men, you and that no
offense to them, absolutelylovely guys, but like I didn't
see that as a feminine role, Ididn't see that as a powerful
role, like where now you look atit and you go, Wow, look at the
props, you've got LSN, you'vegot you know Hannah Bottom and
you've got all these playersthat are really strong and
(15:09):
powerful and and fast.
So, but at the time you youdidn't really have too much of
that.
So I didn't I didn't want it,and I had a big thing about I
was always bigger and I didn'twant to be bigger, I wanted to
be smaller, I wanted to be theshape that people find or
associate with femininely andlike uh beautiful and that kind
(15:30):
of those body images standardsthat those kind of ideals that
get pressed on to kids or womenof of any age, to be honest, not
just not just children.
And I did grow up around someeating disorders, some
difficulties with shape, and youknow, my family were heavily
involved in in dance and fashionand I wanted to continue to,
(15:53):
you know, be like be like myfamily and enjoy and I'd do
that.
And I I didn't see myself inthat.
I n I didn't see anyone wholooked like me ever.
Sue Anstiss (16:01):
What age?
What around what age were youwere you not first aware of that
and and wanting to always.
I remember being little.
Sarah Bern (16:08):
I I did ballet but I had a little pop belly.
Like I wasn't I wasn't big, Ijust had a little pop belly and
um had big broad shoulders.
And I just remember being likeI don't look like I don't look
like everyone here.
You got sisters, you're s yougot two sisters.
They're ten years older thanme.
So okay.
When I was little, they wereobviously in their teenage
years.
(16:28):
And yeah, I just rememberlooking at like magazines and
stuff and being like, I don'tlook like that.
Why do I not look like that?
Or like the clothes wouldn'tfit me right.
Like it wasn't that theywouldn't necessarily they
wouldn't fit, they just didn'tfit like right the way that they
meant.
So I think I was very consciousof that from a young age, and I
think when I went to secondaryschool, that's when you know
when you're most insecure, isn'tit?
(16:48):
When you first go to secondaryschool and you're trying to meet
new friends, and you're alsoyour body's changing anyway, and
you want to fit in, you'redesperately trying to fit in,
which is so crazy because whenyou get to university, you're
desperately trying to stand out.
It is such a bizarre concept,but um yeah, and I I struggled
with with diet and andovertraining and uh lost loads
(17:09):
of weight actually, but it gotreally praised, like it got
praised because you know that'swhat society, you know, sees as
you know, healthy and fit.
But the reality was I wasn'thealthy and fit.
I I was definitely fit becauseI was doing loads of exercise,
but it wasn't in a healthy way.
And I remember going to rugbycamp and I was terrible at
rugby.
I was getting absolutely shotleft, right, and centre.
(17:30):
I couldn't ball carry, and thatwas my strength was ball
carrying.
And I remember like sitting upand talking to my friend at the
time in the ch in the like dormroom, and I was like, I think I
gotta eat more food.
I was like, I'm way too tired.
I am, and that's when I reallystarted to like dial in on body
image and actually being anathlete is more than what you
look like, and that's why I wasso stubborn to move to Thai prop
(17:54):
because I felt like I'd reallycome away from that.
But then yeah, Matt Ferguson,he sat me down, he was like,
Okay, look, like I give you adeal.
If you do this for me, I willget you to a World Cup.
And I was like, obviously 18years old, like bit cocky, and I
was like, I'll do it, buthandshake, you have to make me
the best prop in the world.
(18:14):
I'm not doing it.
And then he he went hand and Iwent, uh, and also I want to
play sevens because that's Iwanted to play in the Olympics.
That was my dream.
Like I want to be a sevensplayer.
And he was like, Yeah, fine,fine, fine.
So he shook my hand, and thenI've not played sevens since
2017, but he definitely and hedefinitely did a good job at
teaching me how to be a tighthead prop.
So fair, fair play to him.
Sue Anstiss (18:36):
And you've got this reputation for being one of the
most explosive props in thegame.
So I think that it that'sfascinating, isn't it?
That playing style of beingable to combine both, that's
almost what makes you unique butvery different to others out
there.
So, how do you train?
Because I feel like slightlydifferent in terms of that
training for power and strengthversus training for speed, the
(18:58):
part that you're so renownedfor.
Um, I love speed training.
Sarah Bern (19:02):
Like I absolutely love it.
I'm not one of those foolswhere they're like, oh, we're
doing speed today, and they go,Oh no, I can't do it.
I love it.
Like, I love learning how to doit properly.
I was I was really like quitenot in a bad way, but I was very
geeky around how do I becomelike the best.
Like I just genuinely wantedthis inner drive since I was
about, I don't know, reallylittle, but I think for rugby
(19:24):
specifically, probably from theage of like 12, where I was
like, I'm I'm gonna I rememberif I didn't have a game, I'd set
up a obstacle course where Iwould just get tackling.
Yeah, like mum would lookoutside and why she's just
running in circles outside, likein the garden.
So I was just very driven.
Sue Anstiss (19:39):
Um Is that your personality generally that
you're want something and you'llgo for it?
Sarah Bern (19:44):
And yeah, I like I would say all my family are very
hardworking, so I think thatwas kind of in instilled in us,
but also we enjoy like havingfun at the same time.
So I think that's the bit whereI kind of leant way too hard at
like being so driven, and nowI'm kind of you know getting
getting the funnel element backinto it.
So yeah, no, I was so so drivenwhen I was a youngster.
(20:06):
Well, and even now, I'm stilldriven, but I guess my my goals
have slightly shifted a littlebit.
Sue Anstiss (20:11):
And for those of us that have never been in the
scrum like me, can you I guesstake us a little bit into the
psychology?
Because I think it is afascinating area of the game
that others you know we we'veall run and we've all kicked
balls, but actually to be in thescrum, what happens in those
those moments before theopposing teams meet?
What's the psychology going onthere?
Sarah Bern (20:30):
It's actually very interesting because most if you
speak to I don't know, maybe abacks coach or someone, not to
name it, Lou Meadows, and shejust like that all you do is
bend over, don't you?
Just bend over and push, ha haha ha.
Like, and then you've got likeyour flankers behind you, like
screaming, like, yeah, scram.
But actually for me, you youhave that inner element of like,
(20:52):
yeah, like scram, I'm gonnadominate, like I'm gonna
dominate you.
But it's actually more of achess game.
It's very, very strategic insetup.
It's because you're workingwith eight people, but
realistically, you've got threepeople at the front that are
gonna control where this goes,and the back five are this raw
power coming through the middleof it.
So you're the drivers of thatpower.
It's very much okay.
(21:12):
Did I get the what's myprocess?
So you could like foot, bind,head, whatever that looks like
for you.
Calm, and then when it's likeyou're there, it's then the
aggression to snap and hold itthere because it's
uncomfortable.
I'm not gonna lie.
It's uncomfortable.
Sue Anstiss (21:26):
As in pain, is painful or just is discomfort?
Sarah Bern (21:29):
No, no, no, it's not painful, it's just you imagine
doing like a maximum squat andyou're at the bottom of maximum
squat, and then you're alsoplaying chess at the same time,
but you're also like quiteaggressively playing chess,
you're just like it is more is aposition n you're never in in
day-to-day life.
So it is something that youreally do have to train, and
(21:51):
it's never gonna go perfect,never ever.
And once you get one scrum andyou've like, oh, I've worked
this out, I'm gonna get themagain.
Someone else has changedsomething, and you know, you
might be going backwards at thatpoint.
So it's um it's a real learninggame.
It is a dark arts, andsometimes it's just about
painting good pictures forreferees.
Sue Anstiss (22:10):
Yeah, we hear that a lot from the commentary, don't
we?
And and do you enjoy it?
Do you like are you pleasedwhen there's a scrum?
Yeah, I am.
Well, uh depend where it is inthe game.
Sarah Bern (22:22):
Ten scrums will write anything getting higher,
not for many things, no.
But I'm more of a runnerthough, so I love playing
attacking rugby.
So if there's like 20 minutesof the game where there's no
scrums, I'm in my element, I'mgoing, great, I feel so fit and
ready to go.
As soon as there's a scrum,because the weight the weight of
it takes it out of your legs.
Like and then you've got thenine going, get round the
corner, get round the corner.
(22:42):
You're like, you get round thecorner, I'm seeing stars.
But yeah, no, it is good.
I I love I've always lovedlearning, like I was saying,
like about the speed and thepower and stuff.
Like, I really enjoy essence,it's just strength and
conditioning, and all that kindof uh in-depth knowledge about
it.
So like I do enjoy it, yeah.
Sue Anstiss (22:59):
And we talked earlier, you talked about that
that fact that rugby is such anamazing sport because it really
thrives on body diversity, andyou have become this really
visible role model, as Imentioned in the introduction,
but for strong muscular,aesthetic women and you're
regularly sharing posts now.
So, how important do you thinkit is that representation across
social media to to younger,it's not younger women, but
(23:22):
women of all ages?
Sarah Bern (23:23):
Uh so I think it's so important, and I think got to
a point where I was like, well,if I'm feeling like this, I you
know, I've a household ofwomen, I live in a household of
women like my families, butpredominantly women, and I mean
that my sisters look totallydifferent to me, and they still
have the same insecurities, justworded a different way.
So I was like, if you feel likethat, and I feel like that,
(23:45):
well, there must be so manywomen, and I've never ever met a
a woman that's truly, trulygone, uh loved everything about
me.
Like, I just don't think it'sin our nature.
Like we are as as like women,we don't believe in ourselves
massively, and it's becausesociety's just not set set up
for us to have that kind ofinnate belief in ourselves, and
(24:06):
actually we do have to tellourselves, and it's not easy to
when to wake up every day andgo, Oh, I love myself, I'm gonna
be great today, I'm a greatperson.
Like, that's just not lifebecause life is so can be
difficult, and things come up,and you always got a little
voice in the back of your headgoing, I don't know if I can do
this, I don't know if I can dothis.
But I think for me, what Irealized is is that why don't we
(24:27):
share that more?
Because it is very easy tothink, oh, that's just in my
head.
But they don't have it.
Look how amazing they are, theydon't have those thoughts, and
that's not that's not true atall.
Like everybody has thoughts andinsecurities, so why don't we
share them a bit more?
And actually, maybe me doingthat, I might help you know some
younger kids growing up who hadhad have that pressure.
(24:50):
I think it's even worse nowwith social media, have a
pressure to kind of be perfect,and it's so funny that we all
chase perfection because it'snot it's not real, it's not
there, and also if we were meantto be perfect, we would be, but
the whole world is created ofimperfection.
And actually, if you look atlike the seven wonders of the
world or whatever, the naturalwonders, they're wonderful
(25:12):
because they are so unique anddifferent.
So it's crazy that we celebratein nature things that are so
different, so amazing, butwithin ourselves and in society,
it's kind of we banish, webanish it.
We don't want it, we wanteveryone to look the same.
And I just think that's youknow, I I just want to bring
that element back actually, justbecause you're different
(25:33):
doesn't mean you're notbeautiful.
It doesn't mean your your worthis any less.
Sue Anstiss (25:37):
And your your posts have been so powerful.
My kids have told me about, youknow, um whether it's the
TikToks, but all that you'resharing, I think it was about a
year ago you said you were kindof anxious about showing
yourself online, but you seem tohave completely embraced that
now on social media.
So what was the turning pointthen?
You mentioned Alona Ma, herpresence at Bristol Bears, in
(25:57):
fact, her whole family hasclearly had a huge kind of
impact.
So what did she unlock for youpersonally?
Was it was that the tippingpoint for you?
Sarah Bern (26:05):
Yeah, I think so.
I think um when Elona firstcame into Bristol, she was a
huge, you know, star.
She was a big, I always waslike, you know, someone saying,
Oh, Jennifer Anderson's comingto train with you.
Like, you're like, well, likein the rugby world, like she's
massive.
So um when she came in, but shewas the first, I guess, kind of
star that I've ever met, likeon a close level, where she was
(26:28):
exactly, she's exactly the sameas how she presents on social
media.
She's there's there's nodifferent.
Like, and it's the same withall her family.
And that's why I say like herfamily are lovely as well,
because what you see on socialmedia, that is that is them, and
they're just a really likegorgeous group of people that
when you spend time with them,like you feel, you know, you
they bring you up, they pumpyour tires, like, as well as
(26:49):
like you're going around going,wow, you're amazing.
Like, they they literallythat's just how they are as
people, so they're like littlerays of sunshine.
And I think I was like, Wow,you you can just be who you are,
like you don't have to fit intothings, like you don't have to
make yourself small, you don'thave to do what people sit like
say all the time, like you canjust be you and be really strong
(27:09):
and brave within that.
There's like a real kind ofbrave element to being so
vulnerable with with things, andthat's actually how you change
the world.
Like, and I think what yougoing back to your point about
like uh me being anxious aboutlike negative comments and
things like that.
Well, if you're making realchange, people aren't gonna
agree.
And I think that's why I kindof leaned into it.
(27:30):
If if people weren't commentingcertain things, well, I'm not
saying that they should, but youknow, people want to give their
opinion, and everyone has thefreedom to do that, and that's
the great thing about the world.
But it means that uh we'recatching their attention,
there's a conversation happeningthere, and actually we might
change some minds along the way.
So, yeah, negativity is nevergreat, and obviously there's a
there's a point where you go,okay, that's that's enough now.
(27:52):
But actually, the fact thatwe're even getting comments like
that is creating conversation,creating change.
Sue Anstiss (27:57):
It does feel like such a genuine friendship, and
you've clearly got such respectfor each other as as players as
well.
Uh do you still struggle withyour self-image today?
Is that still something thatyou have to overcome?
Sarah Bern (28:10):
Yeah, for sure.
And I'm pretty sure like Ilonaprobably does every day as well.
Like we're we are women, likewe are still women, we're not
superheroes.
And actually, sometimes, youknow, I look at my own post and
go, oh, wait, wait, why are yougetting grumpy or why why why
are you annoyed that this shirtis like looks a bit funny on
this bit of like it's so easy tobecome so fixated on the way we
(28:32):
look and is and it it's becausethe world is built to is the
world is built like that, andthat you know, that's okay.
But also you've got to rememberthe most amazing things that
you're doing outside of that.
And that's why the the positivecomments on social media, the
amount of amazing messages Iget, the amount of amazing
people I've got to meet, and um,you know, that have inspired me
(28:52):
by you know having theopportunity to meet them, like
that's why I want to do it.
And hopefully, okay, maybe yes,generations that have passed
never had the opportunity tofeel confident in their own skin
because they didn't have rolemodels.
And you know, I didn't havenecessarily have a role model
either, like Alona.
But if me, Alona, other people,other rugby girls or anyone
(29:12):
really can start talking aboutit, well, hopefully it will
create a generation in I don'tknow, 20 years' time that go,
nah, we're we're prettycomfortable with how we we are,
and just because you'redifferent to me doesn't mean
you're you're any less valuable.
Sue Anstiss (29:25):
Yeah, it's fantastic.
And obviously, that drivingsocial change and attitudes is
really important.
But Elohim has also been reallyfrank about the fact that the
social media following andengagement, it's that element
that enables her tocommercialise her involvement in
the sport too, because she'snot going to do it just through
playing the sport,unfortunately.
So is there an element of thatas to your approach with that or
(29:47):
other red roses too?
Seeing that as an opportunity,the commercial side?
Sarah Bern (29:51):
Yeah, definitely.
I think it's I think it wouldbe silly to say for any woman
sport athlete, and there's acrazy fact, I can't remember
exactly, but it's something.
Like 90% of women, femaleathletes, rely on as like
three-quarters of their incomeis for commercial value.
Something, something like that.
Sue Anstiss (30:09):
The men's is the anti is the opposite of that,
isn't it?
The men's is that they'regetting their money from playing
their sport rather than theirstuff up.
I s I heard that quite recentlytoo.
I was blown away.
Yeah.
Sarah Bern (30:18):
It's so wild because we don't get that much coverage
either.
So you're thinking about howhard all these female athletes
are working to get those dealsto be successful, have that
life.
And on the flip side, it's justit's totally opposite.
And so, yeah, definitely peoplewanna we we want to close that,
close the gap.
Like we would love for it to beequal and women treated
(30:40):
equally.
But that's just again, that'sjust not not where we are right
now.
So yeah, working in thosecommercial spaces.
Also, if we're in commercialspaces, we're in mainstream
sport, in mainstream, you know,media, more more people we can
help help and hopefullyencourage them to come to rugby
because like I say, there's aplace for everyone there.
So the more joy we can spread.
Sue Anstiss (31:01):
And you mentioned that mainstream media, but in
the build-up to the tournament,you were featured in Vogue and
you've partnered with Barbie.
So how does that feel?
Is that a bit surreal to be inthose places and for women's
rugby to be celebrated in thoseplaces too?
That was the most wildest weekof my life.
Sarah Bern (31:17):
I mean, until until recently, yeah.
We yeah I had a call aboutwell, it all started actually
after Six Nations, and I had acall that I was in the Pride
Independence Pride list, and Iwas like, oh wow, thinking
that's really cool.
I I didn't know too much aboutit.
And then I was like, looking, Iwas like, Elton John's on this
list.
I was like, I ranked higherthan Elton John on the Pride
(31:39):
list.
I was like, what's happeninghere?
Um and I like I said, because Igenuinely just want to be my
authentic self, and if thathelps people, that helps people.
It was amazing to be a part ofthat.
And then following on from thatBarbie, we're like, Oh, we
really want you to to be on theBarbie shoot, and that was just
I just never thought that ever.
I I never saw myself as aBarbie.
Like never ever.
(31:59):
So like the fact that I don'twant to get emotional, but like
the fact that then yeah, you doyeah.
I think um give me a second.
The fact that like there was anopportunity to show young kids
with something that's soprevalent, like Barbie, being
the sponsor for that, that yougenuinely can be whoever you
(32:20):
are, as and whoever you want tobe, and you can still be
beautiful, sexy, and all thatkind of thing that's associated
with Barbie, like was just like,yeah.
Sue Anstiss (32:29):
So you can see it means so much, yeah.
And what means so much for somany other girls that are coming
to the you know, are coming tothat for the first time.
It's so powerful.
Sarah Bern (32:39):
And the same with Vogue, yeah.
So top fashion magazine, andlike grew up around fashion.
I absolutely love it.
So that was like a realmilestone.
And also it was kind of nice togo to my sister who used to
work in the fashion industry, belike, hey.
Sue Anstiss (32:51):
Have you been in Vogue?
Yeah.
Sarah Bern (32:54):
That was pretty cool as well.
You got good bragging rights.
Sue Anstiss (32:57):
And talking to fashion, so you've launched a
new Prime Below the shoulder.
Tell us a little bit aboutthat.
What inspired you and some ofthe other players to come
together in that space?
Sarah Bern (33:06):
So, what uh what inspired us was um firstly Emma
Swords, she is my best friendsince we were 12 years old.
We played rugby together.
Sue Anstiss (33:13):
Oh, I didn't know that.
That is so lovely.
Sarah Bern (33:15):
So we first met at London Irish.
I think she's a year older thanme, so she might have been like
13, 14, and I was 12 yearsolder, and we just were best
friends since then.
So um we've not always beenlike close because obviously
rugby takes you here, there, andeverywhere.
But we've always been, she's weshe calls herself my constant.
But I d I don't know if she'smeant you meant to give yourself
the that slogan, but yeah, no,yeah.
(33:37):
So she's um she's like lovely,absolutely like my rock.
So we were thinking, we werewatching like kind of we were
like there's no real likefashion rugby, like you see
football and fashion now, hugelike football shirts everywhere.
I mean like it's not reallyhappening with rugby too much.
Yes, you have the rugby stylekind of vintage shirts, but I
(33:58):
feel like we can really pushthis more.
And Emma came up with thisdeck, and we were like, Well,
yeah, why not?
And Jess and Zoe were like,We're in, like, we want to be,
they love fashion as well.
So they were like, we want tomake a brand that people can
relate to, that is rugby, but itwas also really cool and
stylish, and let's take rugby,like we say, into mainstream
(34:20):
fashion because football's doneit, so why can't we?
And that's kind of how it wasborn.
Um in terms of the four of you,with Jess Breach and Zoe
Harrison.
And um, yeah, so then we we itwas very quick turnaround to get
it before well cut becausethere's like commercial
restrictions on it.
Got it all done, got it off,and yeah, it kind of exploded,
(34:40):
which was really cool.
Um, and now we're we're gonnamake some more products, TBC,
coming out of just somethingsome different.
It'll still be like that kindof stylish, kind of magazine
shoot kind of style that wereally want to push, but it will
definitely all still be rugby.
Sue Anstiss (34:56):
And the lovely, the kind of irreverent logos.
I mean that's a piece about it,isn't it?
That it's a bit nottongue-in-cheek, but I like
that.
That's the element about itthat makes it so cool.
Sarah Bern (35:05):
Yeah, and that's what you know, you look at the
you look at your rock and rollstars, you look at like your pop
stars, it's all a little bitrebellious, it's all a little
bit kind of reframing whatwhat's should be right and what
should be wrong, or evenactually getting rid of all
labels.
And we kind of wanted to be apart of that rebellious.
We all are in our own way alittle bit rebellious anyway, so
we thought there's so muchtongue-in-cheek in rugby anyway,
(35:26):
so let's make it fashionable.
Sue Anstiss (35:28):
I love that.
I love that.
I had to fight hard last nightto get myself one of the uh feel
the burn t-shirts at So Londonand on Regent Street.
They saw that of every size.
I literally did more stockcoming today.
And apparently they had a queueoutside the store on Sunday
morning after the game onSaturday with girls wanting to
get Red Roses merch for thefuture.
So how it's just so wonderful.
(35:48):
I mean, how how does that makeyou feel as a player to know
there is that whole othermarket?
And actually, we saw thatobviously the the hats and the
everything else around it, butyou could just see I I love that
there's so much variety ofplayers creating their own
things and new opportunities.
Sarah Bern (36:03):
Yeah, I think it's I think it's brilliant.
Like honestly blown away thatthere was cues trying to get
into the store.
It's a really cool story.
It's a great idea in the firstplace because why shouldn't we
celebrate the summer of sport?
Like, why shouldn't we buymerchandise?
And it was a really coolopportunity that just popped up
and we were like, cool, let'srun with it.
And then it it went crazy andwe'll keep running out of stock.
(36:24):
I've got so many messages like,can you get more stock?
I'm like, yeah, let me figurethat out.
I don't know how.
Sue Anstiss (36:29):
But yeah, I'm trying to also train and play
for winning a World Cup andeverything else, but leave it
with me.
Interviews.
Sarah Bern (36:34):
I was like, share your message, let me forward it
on.
Like because my friend, IzzyNor Smith, actually, she uh used
to play for England, she wasthe back row from Bristol Bears
as well.
She was like, She's like, mate,there's no kid sizes.
And I was like, hang on aminute, let's sort that out.
So literally, then the next daythose kid sizes up on the
website.
Sue Anstiss (36:50):
So they tried to offer me a child size yesterday.
Yeah, I was I don't know what Iwas thinking when I tried that
on in the change room, but yeah.
Sarah Bern (36:56):
Well, they are oversized, so you know.
Sue Anstiss (36:58):
Yeah, even so.
Sarah Bern (37:00):
Yeah, it's been crazy.
And like that just shows aswell.
Again, there's such acommercial appetite, there's
such a demand for learning abouteach individual person, not
just the player, but them aspeople.
Like, what what could theydesign?
What would that look like?
And it it's just everythingthat we have seems to be like
everything that we've touched asred roses has just shot off the
(37:22):
shelves.
So maybe in like like I wassaying, like how we have the
men's game and the women's game,and they get compared really
easily.
It's all about ticket sales,bums on seats.
And actually, I wonder in thewomen's game, you know, who's
the biggest consumers?
Women and families andchildren, and who's our biggest
market?
Women's family and children.
So actually, maybe if we focusmore on the commercial element
(37:43):
and change kind of thatfinancial element of it, we'll
get more investment into oursport, we'll get more nations
having more support behind them.
I mean, the Irish girls withtheir um fleeces.
Oh my god, I know.
That was amazing, wasn't it?
Absolutely phenomenal.
And like that again, that showslike they have done so well
this year, and like they haveone item of kit that like have
(38:04):
just gone wild.
Like, sell them, commercialiseit, get it out, get more back
in.
Sue Anstiss (38:08):
Should you say what happened there?
There was there was a people atthe there were people at games
holding up like free the fleeceof holding things, and then then
they eventually got a uh a lowload of them made and they was
like sold out in an hour and allsizes.
It was incredible.
Sarah Bern (38:22):
It just shows like there's such a demand for it,
and hopefully that makes it moreappealing to sponsors, and
hopefully that means that we canget more professional female
athletes and we can really startto push our game forward.
Sue Anstiss (38:32):
And and obviously we've said that the women's game
is changing so fast and growingso fast, but if you could pick
one change that you'd like tosee kind of globally or
domestically, that would movethe needle even faster for the
game, what what would that be?
Oh, that's such a trickyquestion.
Throwing that in the end.
Sarah Bern (38:50):
Um, it's a great question.
It's a very good question.
Uh I think I can't pick, I'vegot so many thoughts going
through my head.
The one thing I would like tochange, I think definitely the
one that's probably the biggestelephant in the room is that
gender equality, no matter whatthat looks like.
So whether that's infinancially or even just
(39:11):
opinions about how maybe womenaren't as big, so then they
don't work as hard because it'sless energy.
Like, you know, things likecrazy things like that, or
women's Easter gym will put offmen and stuff like that.
Like it's just I yeah, it'sthat would be the biggest thing
for me is just to be seen as anathlete that ha what is
happening on the pitch and notas a as a gender.
(39:33):
I think, but that that's notjust in rugby, that's in in all
sports across the world.
And if we can get thatequality, kind of that stigma uh
attached, or even like get thatarchaic view out of the way.
I think women's sport, italready is taking off, but I
think it will launch not onlywomen's sport, it will launch
men's and women's.
Like it will help everyonegrow.
(39:54):
So let's go for it.
Sue Anstiss (39:56):
It's really interesting, isn't it?
Stuff within women's sport atthe moment where it's like,
well, we need to bring the malefans across because and I've
always thought, but yeah, we do,if they want to watch, but
actually there's this massiveaudience that's never come to
sport, has never really seensport.
And I think from the sales ofthe merchandise and the people
in the turns, and yeah, theirdads and boyfriends can come
with them.
But actually, there's thishuge, untapped audience of of
(40:17):
fans out there that haven'treally had sport at all.
And women's sport can be theplace where they feel included
and connected and all thosethings that we saw in the
stadium.
Yeah, definitely.
Sarah Bern (40:26):
And there's no judgment, like if you don't know
the rules, no one no one caresbecause there's a great song
about to come on when someonescores a try.
Like, that's absolutely fine,and that's kind of what we want.
I think, yeah, it's so nice toto be there.
And there were so many peopleat Battersea.
We were very fortunate to go toBattersea Palace Station to
lift the trophy.
And there was people in thecrowds there that were like, I
(40:46):
don't know any of the rules, Idon't know what a prop is, but I
really like you and I like theteam.
And that's like you're like,great, like come along.
We we want everyone there forthe ride.
So yeah, I that's what I dolove about that.
Sue Anstiss (40:58):
And just finally, when people talk about Sarah
Burn in the future, in 10 years,couple of decades time, what do
you hope that they will sayabout what you help to change in
the in the game or society?
Sarah Bern (41:09):
Um I think my real passion is that I just I just
help people to feel like theycan be themselves.
I think that's probably it.
Like, oh, like she inspired mejust to, you know, be myself and
go and it go and attack lifebecause you know, like life's
tricky anyway.
We don't need to beat ourselvesup around as well.
(41:29):
And I just hope people realisethat if they can do that, and
it's definitely hard for so manypeople, that you know, the
their potential is limitless.
I just yeah, I want people tobe kinder to themselves and
therefore kinder to each other.
Sue Anstiss (41:48):
Well, I hope I wasn't fangirling too much
there, but what an incredibleathlete and human being Sarah
Bern is.
It's been my pleasure to talkto a number of rugby legends for
The Game Changers Podcast, sodo get back and you can find
episodes with the likes of SueDay, Maggie Alphonosi Shaunagh
Brown, Sarah Hunter, Mo Hunt,Emma Mitchell, Giselle Mather,
(42:09):
and Lisa O'Keefe.
In fact, there are over 200episodes of the Game Changers
that are all free to listen toon podcast platforms or from our
website at fearlesswomen.co.uk.
Guests include elite athletesalong with coaches,
broadcasters, scientists,journalists and CEOs, all women
who are changing the game insport.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
(42:32):
can also find out more about theWomen's Sport Collective, a
free, inclusive community forall women working in sport.
We now have over 14,000 membersacross the world, so please do
come and join us.
The whole of my book, Game On,The Unstoppable Rise of Women's
Sport, is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Every episode of series 13 isme reading a chapter of the
(42:55):
book.
Thank you to Sport England, whoback the Game Changers and the
Women's Sport Collective, with aNational Lottery Award.
Thank you also to Sam Walker atWhat Goes On Media, who does
such a great job as ourexecutive producer, and thank
you to my brilliant colleague atFearless Women, Kate Hannon.
You can find the Game Changerson all podcast platforms, so
(43:20):
please follow us now to ensureyou don't miss out on future
episodes.
Do come and say hello on socialmedia where you'll find me on
LinkedIn and Instagram at SueAnstiss.
The Game Changers.
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