March 4, 2025 • 43 mins
"Women’s sport has come so far, but there’s still a long way to go in terms of investment and opportunity."
In this fascinating episode of The Game Changers, host Sue Anstiss sits down with Dame Tracey Crouch, an influential figure in both sports and politics.
Tracey shares her personal journey from growing up as a passionate sports enthusiast to serving as the UK's Minister for Sport. Her political career was defined by her commitment to grassroots sport, governance reform and championing women’s participation in sport.
Tracey also opens up about her decision to step away from politics, her ongoing work in the private sector, and how her personal battle with breast cancer re-shaped her outlook on life and leadership.
Throughout the conversation, Tracey provides unique insights into the intersection of sports and policy, the challenges facing women’s sport and the steps needed to create systemic change in the industry.
Links & Resources:
- Follow Dame Tracey Crouch on Twitter/X and LinkedIn
- Learn more about Hanover Communications
- Follow The Game Changers Podcast
Stay Connected: Subscribe to The Game Changers for more inspiring conversations with women breaking barriers in sport. Follow us on social media for updates and behind-the-scenes content.
#TheGameChangers #TraceyCrouch #WomenInSport #Football #Leadership #Podcast
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers
Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sue Anstiss (00:05):
Hello and welcome to the Game Changers.
I'm Sue Anstis, and this is thepodcast where you'll hear from
trailblazing women in sport whoare knocking down barriers and
challenging the status quo forwomen and girls everywhere.
What can we learn from theirjourneys as we explore key
issues around equality in sportand beyond?
I'd like to start with a bigthank you to our partners, sport
(00:25):
England, who support the GameChangers through a National
Lottery Award.
My guest today is Dame TraceyCrouch.
Tracey was elected as theConservative MP for Chatham and
Aylesford in 2010, before beingappointed Parliamentary
Under-Secretary for Sport,tourism and Heritage in 2015,
and then ParliamentaryUnder-Secretary for Sport,
(00:45):
tourism and Heritage in 2015,and then Parliamentary
Under-Secretary for Sport andCivil Society from 2017 to 2018.
Tracey's made headlines a numberof times in her career.
She was the first servingConservative MP to take
maternity leave and also talkedvery openly about her breast
cancer diagnosis and treatmentduring the Covid pandemic.
(01:05):
In 2018, tracey resigned fromher role as sports minister over
delays in the crackdown onmaximum stakes for fixed odds
betting machines, saying thedelay was unjustifiable and
could cost lives.
Politicians come and go, butprincipals stay with us forever,
she said at the time.
Principles stay with us forever, she said at the time.
(01:27):
In 2021, tracey was appointed tochair a review of English
football in response tolong-standing issues over the
financial sustainability of themen's game.
The main recommendation of thereview was for an independent
regulator for English football,which very much put Tracey back
in the public eye.
Tracey chose not to stand forre-election as an MP at the 2024
general election and has goneon to become Managing Director
(01:47):
of Sport at HanoverCommunications.
Tracy is also a qualified FAcoach and manages a youth girls
football team.
Tracy, I'd love to start, if Ican, by understanding how sport
played a part in your own lifegrowing up.
Dame Tracey Crouch (02:07):
It's always been hugely important.
I was one of those sporty kids,into everything, I did
everything.
I lived on an estate with boysit was just myself and my sister
that were the girls on theestate.
So if you didn't want to playsport, you just didn't get to
play and I just carried on.
Really, I could always hold myown, you know, in the uh, in the
(02:27):
football games on the streetsor the cricket games or American
football.
You know beer mixing, whateverit was.
You know I was there and, um,yeah, just it.
It forms such an important partof my youth.
I didn't really have thenetwork or the infrastructure
around me as a kid to to doanything in a structured way, so
I didn't start playingcompetitive football until I was
(02:49):
at university and it's juststayed with me ever since.
Sue Anstiss (02:53):
And what sort of an athlete were you?
Were you good?
Dame Tracey Crouch (02:56):
Yeah, I was At primary school.
I was a sports captain.
I was house sports captain.
At secondary school I went toan all-girls school.
So obviously traditional sportslike netball, hockey, athletics
, tennis, you know not football,gymnastics, all that sort of
(03:16):
stuff I was in school netballteam.
But yeah, I was okay.
I played for the first team atuniversity in football and then
just kind of stopped reallyplaying properly.
And then that's when I startedcoaching the girls, because I
turned 30 and I felt like I wasthe oldest person on the pitch,
(03:36):
um at football and I was losing.
I was falling out of love withit.
Really, it was just it's notfun when you're being beasted by
16 year olds.
And so that's when I took mycoaching badge and I coached
girls 10 years.
I don't coach anymore, but Idid do some coaching at my son's
primary school with girls forabout two years, which I really
(04:00):
enjoyed.
Sue Anstiss (04:01):
I was going to ask you about that.
It's almost like banded on toall of your bio, isn't it?
And she's also an FA qualifiercoaching a youth team.
It's like attached to youforever.
I believe you're playing a bitagain now.
I saw that you kind of startedplaying.
How is that going?
Dame Tracey Crouch (04:13):
Yeah, it's veterans football.
I'm enjoying it most of thetime.
It's perhaps not as casual oras recreational as I thought, it
might be a bit more competitive, but yeah, I'm enjoying it.
I turned out as well for the umfor the seconds a couple of
weeks ago in a cup game which wewon.
I got 45 minutes of 11 aside.
(04:33):
The vets is seven aside, sodifferent uh, and I was playing
when I was in parliament.
I was captain of the women'sparliamentary football team, so
that was five aside.
So I feel like I've beenplaying all the disciplines
recently so but you know it'sfun really enjoying it.
Sue Anstiss (04:49):
I remember being at an event, I think at the house
of commons.
Dame Tracey Crouch (04:51):
You came along in your kit, I think you'd
literally come from playing agame to one of the meetings
fantastic, I used to love votingin my football kit because it
used to sort of kind of really,you know, raise a few eyebrows.
You were probably breaking somesort of parliamentary rule,
which I kind of quite liked, andcertainly pushing those
boundaries anyway.
Sue Anstiss (05:11):
And tell us a little bit about coaching, your
experience of coaching.
Obviously, we're doing a lotmore in that space now to try
and encourage more women to comethrough and coach at all levels
.
But what did you enjoy about itat the time?
Dame Tracey Crouch (05:23):
I coached girls and I didn't have any kind
of blood relationship with theteam.
Quite often in youth sport, youknow it is somebody's parent
that is involved.
So I really enjoyed just beingan outsider, coming in and doing
it because I wanted to do itand not because I had to do it
(05:44):
in order for the team to exist,and I learned actually quite a
lot from it.
I was not just the stuff oflearning how to coach girls, you
know, and skills and drills andall that sort of stuff, but
actually I learned how to engagewith people about sport in
different ways and I stayed withmy team from they're
(06:07):
effectively eight and nine whenI started and all the way up to
when they were 18.
And I see them now on socialmedia and their mums themselves
or they are, you know,fulfilling their professional
dreams.
I actually, when I was coachingthe key stage two girls at my
son's school, we were in atournament and one of the girls
(06:29):
that was in my football team wasa teacher at a school coaching
girls in that tournament.
They absolutely thrashed us aswell, so she took great joy in
that.
But um, uh, but so it wasreally nice.
It was a really nice journeyand I have nothing but really
fond memories, apart fromperhaps the really cold fingers
that I used to get putting upthe nets on a winter's morning.
(06:52):
Um, but it was.
It was nice.
I yeah, it was.
It was a fun time and it reallyadded to me as a human being.
You know I got so much out ofit.
But it also, from a politicalperspective, gave me a real
insight into some of thechallenges of grassroots
football and in particular, thechallenges of girls in
grassroots football how theywould get second dibs on pitch
(07:14):
allocation, how the facilitiesweren't appropriate for girls.
You know how you'd turn up on arecreational field and you'd
see boys weeing in bushes.
But you can't do that as an 11,12 year old girl.
You can, but it's not the nicestthing to do, and so you know.
It really opened my eyes to alot of the challenges, but
(07:35):
ultimately I got a huge amountfrom it.
Sue Anstiss (07:38):
Yeah, it's excellent to hear, isn't it?
And I think you're the firstcareer politician I've spoken to
on the podcast.
So was being a politician anambition for you from a young
age?
Is it something you felt youmight do?
Dame Tracey Crouch (07:50):
So I always say no to that answer.
And then you talk to any of mygirlfriends at school and they
say, yeah, no, absolutely.
We all knew she was going to bean MP.
But I don't really recall beingone of those really nerdy kind
(08:13):
of you know people that satthere and thought that I was
going to save the world.
I always felt like I was anaccidental politician.
I studied law at university andso, you know, genuinely thought
I was going to go off and be alawyer, but I kind of fell into
politics at a level and thenchanged my degree halfway
through to be law and politicsand then just fell into
parliament and then sort of kindof stayed hanging around
Westminster for the rest of mylife.
So I didn't think I ever wantedto be a career politician,
(08:35):
turns out that's kind of what itwas, well, up until recently
and is that a fairly typicalroute in to kind of come in and
work within parliament and thenpeople progress to becoming
politicians?
Sue Anstiss (08:46):
do you think yes and no?
Dame Tracey Crouch (08:47):
to be honest with you, there's lots of
different routes in.
You don't have to work inParliament to be a politician.
In fact, 2010 intake, of whichI was part of under David
Cameron, there were lots ofpeople who had never even set
foot in Parliament before.
There'll be a lot of peoplethat are now sitting in
Parliament who would never beenin parliament before because of
the way that they won theirseats.
(09:09):
A lot of people win their seatsby accident and don't
necessarily have that experiencethat others do, but I think
it's important to have a mate'sbag.
I think it's important to havepeople who have experience of
working in parliament and thosethat don't, and you just help
each other muddle along umthroughout your career, however
(09:29):
long that is, and one of thethings about politics, unless
you're in a very, very safe seat, um, your, your career can be
shorter than you think it'sgoing to be absolutely that is.
Sue Anstiss (09:38):
That is always a shocking piece, isn't it, of
overnight year, your job changes, as it were.
You were made parliamentaryunder secretary for sport and
tourism and heritage in 2015, sowas that, at the time, a post
that you very much wanted?
You talked to kind of your loveof sport and that side, but I
guess it's a broader role thanthat, isn't it?
Dame Tracey Crouch (09:56):
yeah, it's um.
I wouldn't have accepted anyother job in government and
actually even the proposal was asurprise, because I had spent
my first five years inParliament being, as I like to
term it, independent, minded thewhips and the prime minister
might call it other things but Ihadn't always supported the
(10:20):
government as loyally as I thinkthey might have hoped.
So my appointment wasunexpected and when David
Cameron rang me up, I wasgenuinely very surprised and, in
a way that I think is somethingthat happens more with women
than with men, asked him if hewas sure and whether or not he
actually genuinely had theconfidence in me to be able to
(10:42):
do the job, and once he told mevery clearly that he thought I
was going to be a round peg in around hole, I accepted, and
that was the start of my threeand three and a half years,
let's say, of ministerial career.
Sue Anstiss (10:59):
And at the time, as you came in, what were the
biggest challenges would you saythat sport was facing then in
2015?
I think?
Dame Tracey Crouch (11:06):
it had lost its direction slightly.
One of the first things we gotstarted on was a sports strategy
.
The active lives survey hadshowed that there'd been a bit
of a flat line in terms ofparticipation, and so we wanted
to have a look to see how wecould change that, if there were
any kind of ways to, to give ita bit of a kick, give it a bit
(11:30):
of boost.
But there are lots of differentthings that just weren't quite
working.
Governance was one of thoseaspects.
So the the sports strategybrought in a new governance code
which changed the way thatwomen were represented on
national governing bodies.
But there are also otherchallenges within that, and so
(11:52):
really the the sports strategykind of set out the direction
for me and then my successors.
For some time actually it tookI think it was only recently
that it was updated.
So it was a it was a reallyimportant piece of work to get
focused on straight away.
Sue Anstiss (12:10):
And was that something when you came in?
Is that something you as a newminister kind of recognized,
because obviously there havebeen others before you and
things had just continued on?
Was that, is that somethingthat you drove personally, that
you felt there needed to be moreof a change in strategy?
Dame Tracey Crouch (12:26):
I'd spoken about it when I was on the back
benches and I'd been on the DCMSselect committee where we had
looked at some of these issues.
But I also think that there wasan appetite within civil service
as well, and you know, I knowthat some of the narrative
recently has been about thecivil service being some sort of
beast that operates behind thescenes.
But sometimes if you get theright minister connecting with
(12:47):
the right members of the civilservice, you can really sort of
drive significant change.
And I think I just happened tobe in a really lucky position
where I had great civil servantswho shared an appetite for
doing something quitespectacular in in the field, and
we did.
And whether it was to do withintegrity in sport, whether it
(13:08):
was to do with participation,whether it was to do with PE,
which doesn't sit within DCMSbut requires really close
working with DFE, whether it'sto do with governance, you know
some of these things are not thesexiest of issues, but they
mean so much to sport and to thefuture of sport and so we just
had that, that connection, andit just worked really well.
Sue Anstiss (13:31):
I remember, actually, the first time I heard
you speak at an event when youwere sports minister I think it
might have been a sportrecreation alliance conference
at the Oval and I came home andI was absolutely raving about
you because you were soincredibly authentic and I felt
like you really cared and youunderstood sport and you weren't
in the nicest possible way, youweren't just reading the notes
that civil servants had given toyou, which I've been lucky
(13:53):
enough to be at lots of eventsand heard lots of ministers, and
that is sometimes the case andit didn't feel like that.
I think it's interesting.
You're saying I'm almost nottoeing the party line.
I and was not toeing the partyline.
I think you might have been thefirst Tory MP.
I came home and thought I'dreally like her.
It was a weird experience, Ishould say.
So I guess that's interesting,isn't it?
In terms of politics, do youfeel you've always been a
Conservative?
That was kind of where you were.
(14:14):
Was there any chance that thatmight not have been the case in
terms of your coming?
Dame Tracey Crouch (14:19):
into politics?
No, not really because of myage and my background and
everything else.
So I was studying politics whenJohn Major became prime
minister and John Major was ahuge inspiration to me and I'm
sure you don't often hear that,because actually in conservative
circles you always hear aboutMaggie Thatcher and everything
(14:39):
else.
But I was too young for MaggieThatcher.
She was there in myconsciousness but actually I was
too young to sort of kind ofreally understand her ideology
and what that meant andeverything else.
But for me John Major was there.
He was from a single parentfamily, which I was from a
single parent family.
He was at a grammar school.
(14:59):
I was at a grammar school.
He had ambitions to do thingsand very much set out his store,
his ideology about meritocracy,about working hard, about
opportunity, and all of thatjust sang to me.
And at the time the Labour Partywere in a different place.
They've been led by NeilKinnock and there was by Paddy
(15:21):
Ashdown and it just didn'treally it didn't click.
Had I been five years later,that person could have been Tony
Blair, and actually there isn'tmuch difference between the two
.
And so you know, I sort of kindof made my connections and
started working from a voluntaryperspective in the grassroots
of the Conservative Party, andalthough I'm very much in the
(15:42):
centre of the Conservative Partyand more of the left of the
conservative party, and althoughI'm very much in the center of
the conservative party and moreof the left of the conservative
party, it's just, you know, abit like a football team.
I kind of got my tribe and Istick with my tribe and and
that's it, and then we're upsand downs in that, in that
long-term relationship with theconservative party, but
(16:03):
ultimately I'd never be anythingelse up other than that.
But I'm a sort of kind of, youknow, a friendly, um, not a
critic.
I'm a sort of kind of I can becritical of my party and yet
still love it dearly, um, andyou know so.
But then on the issues, youknow, in Westminster I always
(16:24):
worked on cross-party issues,whether that be sport, whether
that was gambling, whetherthat's the issue of loneliness.
You know the charity sector,animal welfare, the environment.
You know, I just didn't seethem in this sort of kind of
tribal political party aspectand as a result I've managed to
maintain relationships withmembers from all parties
(16:47):
throughout my career and, andeven now, yeah, that's
interesting, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss (16:51):
last week we were at that Sky Sports salon event
and you were in the room andLisa Nandy was in the room and
she gave a bit of a talk with amicrophone.
I thought I mean it could havebeen.
You've said the things that shewas saying were all the things
that you could have said hadthat, had the microphone come.
So it's interesting, isn't it?
It doesn't need to be polarisedone against another.
We can all be working in thesame direction, as you say, in a
(17:11):
cross-party fashion.
Dame Tracey Crouch (17:13):
Sport is one of those briefs where there's
very little politics,parliamentary politics in sport.
I've always there's morepolitics in sport than there is
in Westminster.
I've always there's morepolitics in sport than there is
in Westminster.
And actually, you know, lisaspoke really well last week and
you know I texted her afterwardsto say that I thought she was
absolutely spot on and actuallyI thought so.
(17:36):
She came across as veryauthentic, she didn't make it
political, she didn't need to.
You know, gave me some heart.
That women's and girls' sportmay somewhere be on the agenda.
We haven't seen it yet, butmaybe it will be there and I
think that's an important thingfor her and for Stephanie
Peacock, her sports minister, toreflect on as they go forward.
Sue Anstiss (18:05):
And I was going to ask you and clearly you did some
amazing things in your role asminister.
But I've been in sport for over30 years and I do get
frustrated that repeatedly Ialmost don't see governments
using sport and physicalactivity as a tool perhaps to
tackle some of those widersocietal issues around poverty,
inequality, mental healthtouching on it, and I know it's
hard, it's a huge beast to kindof turn around, isn't it?
But but why do you think thatis?
And I guess, guess what wouldyou like to see change there if
(18:27):
it could?
Dame Tracey Crouch (18:29):
So I would say that they do, but they don't
do it enough and they certainlydon't PR it.
So I can't tell you how manycross-government committees I've
sat on where I don't know.
A minister from the Home Officeor the minister from Justice
has turned around and said Tracy, we need more sport money for
(18:52):
this.
And you sit there and say, well, actually, minister, minister,
you are already getting that.
You're already paying forwhoever to go into your prisons
and to support them, using sportto help with rehabilitation or
reintegration, or the homeoffice.
You know, your police and crimecommissioners are engaged with
(19:13):
sporting organizations to tacklegang crime or theft or things
like that.
In the health department, theyhave a huge physical health
budget, of which you would seesome of it in terms of rehab or
prehab.
So it is being used.
It's just not done in aconnected way and perhaps it's
(19:35):
not being well thought throughfrom a strategy perspective and
it's certainly not PR'd enough.
I would say that there'sdefinitely things happening that
we just don't know about, butwe should know about.
There is definitely room formassive improvement.
My proposal to the Boris Johnsongovernment, which was light but
(19:56):
never activated, was that Ithink that we need a
restructured Whitehall.
We need a department forwellbeing, and the department
for wellbeing basically bringstogether all the bits of other
departments that do some kind ofphysical activity.
Really focus on that, becauseat the moment they're often not
(20:17):
the priority issues.
So if you take, for example,environment DEFRA, they have all
the access to nature, canalsand waterways.
They all sit in there.
They don't put a real focus onthat.
School sports sits within DfE.
Dfe is all about nationalcurriculum and standards.
They don't necessarily do muchon school sport.
(20:38):
So it's like how can you bringall those bits that are in other
departments together under oneroof?
And I always said that if I ranmy fantasy department, the
primary mission would be toreduce the department of
health's budget, becauseactually this would all be about
prevention as well.
So you improve people'swell-being, you reduce their
(20:59):
chances of of going intohospital or reduce their
diseases and everything else, soactually you end up reducing
the the budget department healthsadly never happened no, and
and it has.
Sue Anstiss (21:12):
It's interesting, isn't it?
Because I've talked to suecampbell, to tanny, so, and
others have said thishistorically, in terms of active
transportation and all thosedifferent departments, how do
you get them all to so?
So why is that never?
Why has that never been apriority?
Why is that not?
Is it too complicated, is it I?
Dame Tracey Crouch (21:27):
think there's an element of
complicated.
I think also some people wouldjust they people always worry
about what the daily mail isgoing to say about it and that
it would be some kind of youknow, people would take the
mickey and mock it.
And you know, sadly, I thinkthere is an element of truth in
that.
But if you look at othercountries around the world, you
know they have very similardepartments.
(21:49):
The UAE, for example, you know,has a well-being department.
I remember, as lonelinessminister, I met the minister for
happiness.
You know it's just like, oh, Iwant to be the minister for
happiness and, by the way, thenumber one way to do that is to
get people more physicallymoving.
Sue Anstiss (22:06):
Um, but I I think there is a complex sort of kind
of aspect to it and you and Ihave obviously crossed paths a
lot too in the space of women'ssport.
So how are you feeling nowabout the place where
professional women's sport is interms of funding and equality?
That's a big question, but yeah.
Dame Tracey Crouch (22:24):
How long have we got to answer?
Uh, no, um.
So I think we have come onleaps and bounds, right.
I mean, let's be clear the lasttwo decades we've seen
transformation of women's sportinto something that isn't just
being talked about and it ishappening.
Do we have much further to go?
(22:45):
Absolutely of course we do.
But I do think that we shouldpause and reflect on how far
we've come and we can celebratewhere we've got to without sort
of kind of taking our eye offthe ball as to where we've got
to still go.
And I think we sometimes we'reso busy trying to get to where
(23:08):
we're going that we haven't kindof recognized the journey we've
been on.
And it has been challenging.
You know, and I love the factthat we we still celebrate
pioneers of sports that you know, without them we wouldn't have,
for example, today's lionesses.
And we've got some reallyexciting things coming up in the
(23:31):
calendar this year for women'ssport and I just hope that yet
again it it gives us anotheropportunity, just give it that
true nudge along a little bitfurther, whatever those
challenges might be and thereare still enormous challenges
the commercial aspect of it is ahuge challenge and sometimes
it's really easy to jump up anddown and be cross with people
(23:52):
for not investing, but what arethey investing in?
And why should they beinvesting in something that
isn't yet making them wealthier?
You know, let's be clear, lotsof people don't invest for
charitable reasons.
What is the purpose of it?
And so I think that there isstill a lot to do.
(24:12):
I don't know how we fill allthose gaps.
I don't know how we answer allthose problems or challenges.
I don't know what more we cando to get people, to get girls
active.
I don't know how we stress yetagain to secondary schools, for
example, that they have to offera diversity of the PE
(24:34):
curriculum to get girls moving.
I don't know how we continue toovercome challenges around
facilities.
I don't know how we make itclear that it's okay for a girl
to be in a sport, and we see itall the time.
I was reading a story over theweekend about two young girls
(24:55):
who've been criticized forlooking like boys because they
play football.
It's like how do we overcomethese challenges and these
barriers and I just don't know.
I don't know the answer to itall, and I wish I did.
I wish I had sort of kind oftime to sit down and think about
them all.
But then you know it's hard,it's really hard.
Sue Anstiss (25:15):
And obviously you are a massive football fan.
You've done a lot within theworld of football.
Do you ever get concerned that,with the ongoing growth and the
investment and profile inwomen's football, that other
women's sports, that widerwomen's sport, might be missing
out at all?
Dame Tracey Crouch (25:31):
No and yes if that makes sense, because
ultimately, at the end of theday, you know football as a
sport, men or women, justfootball as a sport is huge,
arguably the biggest sport inthe world, and therefore it is
(25:51):
as a consequence of it being ahugely popular sport that
women's sport is going to growon a trajectory that is
different to other sports.
How do other sports find theirvoice, their space in that world
is really difficult, but that'sthe same for sport, regardless
of whether it's in male orfemale.
(26:11):
And you know, I find it veryinteresting when you see surveys
around Gen Z and what they'rewatching and how they're
engaging the sport and howthey're getting into sport.
It's like, how do we make surewe're getting the next
generation into all sorts ofsports?
And I love football, don't getme wrong.
I mean, I thoroughly enjoywatching the sport, even though
(26:35):
I'm a Spurs season ticket holderand it's not the nicest thing
to be watching at the moment.
But I love watching the sport.
But I also love watching othersports.
I also recognize that footballis not everybody's sport, but
what we have to do is we have togive people the ability to see
(26:56):
a whole variety of sports andand enjoy them for what they are
and not try and just constantlyround football down people's
throats.
And that's why our medialandscape is so important.
That's why, when I was minister, I was talking to those in
charge of what was a far moretraditional media um platform
(27:19):
sort of back then only 2015, soyou know, a decade ago, still
much more traditional.
Getting women's rugby resultsinto the back pages was a.
That was one of my pet missions.
You know I was sitting theresaying I can read right down to
grassroots level in men's rugby,but I can't see what Bristol or
(27:42):
Harlequins or whoever was doingin the women's rugby, and
actually that became a bit of amission for me.
So I just think we just need tocarry on the conversation about
it.
But I don't worry about women'sfootball crowding out other
women's sport, because it's justhow do you get other sport in a
(28:02):
very crowded football space?
Sue Anstiss (28:05):
yeah, it's more of a football conversation, isn't
it as well too?
Um, I was going to go back towhen you were a minister.
You were the first conservativeminister to take maternity
leave and I know at the time yousaid it wasn't really a big
deal because other mps had hadmaternity leave and obviously
thousands of professional womentake maternity leave all the
time.
But how important was it foryou that you were so public
about that maternity leavediscussion and, and I guess also
(28:28):
, how did you find that balanceof being a young mother and
being a politician?
Dame Tracey Crouch (28:32):
God wasn't that young Sue.
I was 40 when I had Freddie, Anew mother.
A new mother, yeah, I said youknow what I was.
I was always really desperatelykeen to just take it all in my
stride and not really see myselfas anything special, because I
never quite understood thefascination as to why MPs going
(28:53):
on maternity leave was such abig deal when there are people
taking maternity leave fromreally challenging jobs all the
time.
And also my income was secure,and that isn't the case for
every woman taking maternityleave.
So I always found it slightlybizarre this fascination by it
all and I just got on in thesame way that everybody else
(29:16):
does.
In terms of maternity leave, Ihad a fantastic ministerial team
.
I had cover for three monthsanyway from another MP, but I
had a great private office whowould sneak questions to me on
WhatsApp if they knew that I'dwant to be involved.
And yeah, I took my threemonths and I was back in time
(29:36):
for the Rio Olympics.
So it was fine.
Everything just workedperfectly.
But it doesn't stop, you know,as your kids grow up, you know
other things pop up.
I mean, while we've been onthis call, you know recording
this podcast, Freddie's dentisthas rang me three times.
So you know it just doesn'tstop.
(29:57):
Do you need to take it?
No, no, no, it's fine, they'recalling me back anyway, but it's
, you know, you're just aworking mother.
I'm really lucky to have ahusband who's very supportive,
who has always enjoyed beingpretty much the primary carer
Monday to Thursday.
I get home and rewrite all therules on a Thursday and we still
(30:19):
do that.
You know, when I gave upworking in Parliament, everyone
would say, well, you must belooking forward to having Tracy
home at you know more?
And he was like I hope not,Don't feel well what the
consequence of that would be.
So yes, it is what it is and Ijust muddle on like every other
woman.
Sue Anstiss (30:36):
And Sally, you were diagnosed with breast cancer in
2020 and shared much of thatjourney very openly.
So I guess, firstly, how arethings today for you?
Dame Tracey Crouch (30:46):
As far as I know, all well.
So you never know what's goingon underneath, but look after
myself and just hope it justcarries on, you know not being
there?
Sue Anstiss (30:56):
Yeah, and how was it for you having something so
personal for you and the familyto to be made so public?
And I know I've I've kind oflooked back and seen some of the
interviews that you gave attime, and obviously it was
during Covid as well too.
Wasn't it so a time when peoplewere very concerned about going
to the doctors etc?
But were you pleased to be ableto use it in that way, so
publicly, to help others?
Dame Tracey Crouch (31:17):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, I was using my localNHS hospital.
So part of my reason for goingpublic was that I'd been spotted
in oncology a couple of timesand, unfortunately, the way of
the world as a politician isthat someone would buy that
information and pay someone alot of money for that.
So I thought actually it wasbetter for me to own the
(31:39):
narrative, to own the story,which is why we decided to go
public.
But as a consequence of that, Iknow that other people went and
got checked and I know thatother people found lumps and, as
it happened, I also became abit of a chemo buddy to people.
Actually, a guy who was goingthrough breast cancer saw me on
(32:00):
BBC Southeast doing an interviewcompletely bored from my chemo,
and he too was on exactly thesame cycle as I was in his
chemotherapy, albeit at adifferent hospital.
So we ended up becoming quitegood buddies and other people
got in touch with me afterwardsto say they'd just been
diagnosed and and I didn't mindand, and you know being able to
(32:22):
give people some, you know,share parts of my journey,
because everybody's journey isdifferent, but share my
experience and how I got throughit, some things that happened
some things that didn't happenand yeah, it's been.
It's been interesting, I found,when I was in Westminster quite
often people would from thebreast cancer world, would want
(32:42):
to talk to me a lot and I foundon a couple occasions that was
quite triggering.
So I did have to have honestconversations with myself about
how involved I wanted to be insome of the issues and step back
on a couple of occasions.
But I think if you knowyourself well and you won't know
the sort of things that driveanxieties and, in particular,
health anxieties, you can dothat.
(33:03):
You can kind of dip in and dipback out again, and that's what
I continue to do and after 14years.
Sue Anstiss (33:10):
You stood down as an MP in the general election in
2024, saying it was entirelyfor personal and positive
reasons.
So was it a very difficultdecision to make at the time?
No, I love it.
Dame Tracey Crouch (33:24):
No, not really.
I'm sort of one of those peoplethat once I've made a decision,
I'm very much at peace withthat, in the same way that when
I decided to leave government, Inever regretted it at all
because I made the decision.
Made the decision, I genuinelyhad felt like I'd had a
(33:45):
wonderful 14 and a half years inparliament, that I'd achieved a
lot.
I achieved almost noteverything, but almost
everything that I'd wanted to.
To that point in time, I foundmy breast cancer journey a
really enlightening experience,along with climbing Kilimanjaro.
Actually, I think the one thingI'd say to anyone who is
thinking about climbingKilimanjaro it will change your
(34:07):
life and it will change youroutlook on life.
And I did it with some uh somegirlfriends another one who was
who went through breast cancerat the same time as me.
That and, and the cancer journeyand my son growing up and all
sorts of different things, justall culminated in a, in a
decision to just go and dosomething else.
I turned 50 in July and I'mactually not somebody who's
(34:31):
frightened of turning 50.
In fact, I'm very much lookingforward to it, if only because
then I go up of age grade inpark run, um but um, and I'm
like fully embracing it.
So it was just I.
I have the next parts of myprofessional life to to get on
with.
I was never going to be apolitician for life did you know
(34:53):
that?
Sue Anstiss (34:54):
did you always know that you weren't going to be
well?
I thought you might be PM oneday.
I thought you'd be a marvelousprime minister gosh, don't.
Dame Tracey Crouch (35:00):
Honestly, I remember having this
conversation so I've neverwanted to be prime minister and
I had a lovely friend of minecame into westminster in the
middle of boris johnson's sortof kind of tribulations so yeah,
and she said exactly the samething.
So, like you know, I, I thinkyou should be promised.
(35:22):
I was like I don't want to beprime minister.
I said trouble is you've gotimposter syndrome.
And I was like I don't haveimposter syndrome.
She said no, no, you do.
You do I, you know you need togo see my life coach.
And so I was, you know,dispatched off to see the life
coach and after three hours ofdoing quadrants and color-coded
this, that and everything else,she was like no, you don't have
(35:43):
imposter syndrome, you justdon't want to be prime minister.
And I didn't.
And actually part of part of theproblem with politics and this
you know this is going to soundarrogant and I don't mean it to
be arrogant because I'm, that'snot who I am but part of the
problem in politics is sometimesthings happen by mistake, and I
could see what was going tohappen at the general election.
(36:05):
You know, long before I took mydecision to leave, I would have
probably won my seat.
And then you find yourself inopposition and either, before
you know it, you're eitherstanding for leader or you're in
the shadow cabinet, withpotential that next time you
then stand for leader, and thenone day you end up being prime
minister and I was like I justdon't want to be prime minister,
(36:27):
so I didn't want to be thisaccidental kind of prime
minister.
So I was just like, no, it'sbetter to just leave all
together.
And then I can't evenaccidentally turn up one day in
Downing Street.
Sue Anstiss (36:40):
Might you ever go back.
Is that done now?
It's done.
Dame Tracey Crouch (36:44):
And actually , no, it's like the way I see it
is.
You know, I had a 14-yearrelationship with Westminster.
I have some very fond memories.
There were times I absolutelyloved it.
There were times I didn't loveit so much, but I moved on.
(37:04):
I moved on from it.
You know I broke up with it andtherefore I'm not going to go
back to it and so, no, that's mytime in Parliament done.
Sue Anstiss (37:17):
And what advice would you give to any young
woman who's considering enteringpolitics today?
Dame Tracey Crouch (37:23):
So it's.
I mean, it's an incrediblecareer.
It's a credible opportunity forsomeone who is passionate,
who's driven to try and make adifference, as long as you
understand what the boundariesare.
So I think the mostdisappointed politicians I ever
met are those that have gone inand said that they want to
change the world, because youcan't change the world right,
(37:44):
but you can change the world ofindividuals.
So, by the way, probably onlythree out of 10, you would get a
successful outcome from, but ifyou help those three out of
(38:05):
those 10, you change their lives.
And that was what making adifference was about making a
difference to individuals, it'smaking a difference in the
community.
And then if you are lucky enoughto be in a position where you
can change a particular law oryou can change policy direction
(38:26):
or, in my case, you know bringin entirely different, you know
new strategies or governancecodes then you've done, you've
achieved a lot.
But there's also enormousfrustrations with being a
politician, in that you can'twin every fight.
Sometimes, even if it's themost sensible thing, you're
(38:47):
still up against people whodon't agree with you, and so it
can be frustrating as well.
And then the atmosphere inWestminster has changed since I
got elected, know a lot moreviral campaigns.
There is no such thing as apersonal life.
Everything you do is done inpublic, so it can be enormously
(39:08):
challenging, but ultimatelyunder date.
If you're going for the rightreasons, you will get an
enormous amount out of it.
Sue Anstiss (39:14):
You've since been appointed managing director at
Hanover for the sportsdepartment or sports division.
Is that what?
That?
What's your formal title there?
Managing?
Dame Tracey Crouch (39:22):
Director of Hanover Sports, so I deal with
all the sports clients andaiming to grow the business.
Just in case anyone's listeningand has a RFP ready to send
over, We'll put a little link inthe show notes here.
Sue Anstiss (39:35):
I must admit I was surprised at the time when I saw
the news and then I discoveredkind of researching.
You'd had these big roles incommunications in the past,
before you become an MP anyway.
So how have you found that roleand does it feel very different
coming back out of politics, oris it like going back to your
old life, pre-politics?
Dame Tracey Crouch (39:53):
It's a bit of both.
You know I was at a slightlylower level when I was in
consultancy before andcommunications before, so it's
nice to be at a more seniorlevel.
But you know I am learning alot about society that moved on
in those 14 years that I wasinside.
(40:14):
I do keep on saying Inside, Ido, I mean because it's an
institution, right.
So I do keep saying to peoplethat this is like a
reintegration back into society.
But yeah, it's fun, it's reallyfun, so I'm enjoying it.
Sue Anstiss (40:29):
I'm a very positive person.
What do you miss?
Is there anything you missaround the you know anything
significant that you miss aroundyour days as an MP?
Dame Tracey Crouch (40:36):
I miss my friends, I miss the ability to
change things.
Yeah, so all sorts of you knowthose sorts of things.
Sue Anstiss (40:43):
But you're enjoying lots of not being an.
Dame Tracey Crouch (40:46):
MP too I feel Exactly.
Sue Anstiss (40:49):
And in 2024, you were made a Dame in the Special
Honours for your contribution toparliamentary and public
service.
Is that anything you would everhave envisaged when you were a
young student studying politicsat university?
Dame Tracey Crouch (41:06):
Not at all.
Never mind the university bit.
I mean you're kicking afootball around the streets of
Hyde and Kent, you know, I'mjust like yeah, I mean I was,
honestly, I was a feral child.
So the idea that now somehowI'm a Dame Dame trace, you know,
you just don't think anythingof it.
But no, I mean it was a greathonor, it was a real privilege
and, um, you know, I stillsometimes, you know, think what
(41:27):
on earth did I get it for?
But then I also have tosometimes just recognize that I
did do some positive things aswell, and maybe that is actually
what it's about.
Sue Anstiss (41:41):
Thank you so much to Tracy for such an honest and
open conversation.
It's clear to see why she hadthe success she did, and we wish
her well for the future.
If you'd like to hear from moretrailblazers, there are over
200 episodes of the GameChangers that are free to listen
to on all podcast platforms orfrom our website at
fearlesswomencouk.
Previous guests include eliteathletes, coaches, entrepreneurs
(42:07):
, broadcasters, scientists,journalists and CEOs all women
who are changing the game insport.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
can also find out more about theWomen's Sport Collective, a
free, inclusive community forall women working in sport.
We now have over 10,000 membersfrom across the world, so
(42:28):
please do come and join us.
The whole of my book Game On theUnstoppable Rise of Women's
Sport is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Each episode of Series 13 is mereading a chapter of the book.
Thank you once again to SportEngland for backing the Game
Changers and the Women's SportCollective with a National
Lottery Award, and also thanksto Sam Walker at what Goes On
(42:51):
Media, who does such a brilliantjob as our executive producer.
And a final thank you to mylovely colleague at Fearless
Women, kate Hannan.
You can find the Game Changerson our podcast platform, so
please follow us now and makesure you don't miss out on
future episodes.
Come and say hello on socialmedia, where you'll find me on
(43:14):
LinkedIn and Instagram at SueAnstis, the Game Changers
Fearless women in sport.
Hello and welcome to the Game Changers.
I'm Sue Anstis, and this is thepodcast where you'll hear from
trailblazing women in sport whoare knocking down barriers and
challenging the status quo forwomen and girls everywhere.
What can we learn from theirjourneys as we explore key
issues around equality in sportand beyond?
I'd like to start with a bigthank you to our partners, sport
(00:25):
England, who support the GameChangers through a National
Lottery Award.
My guest today is Dame TraceyCrouch.
Tracey was elected as theConservative MP for Chatham and
Aylesford in 2010, before beingappointed Parliamentary
Under-Secretary for Sport,tourism and Heritage in 2015,
and then ParliamentaryUnder-Secretary for Sport,
(00:45):
tourism and Heritage in 2015,and then Parliamentary
Under-Secretary for Sport andCivil Society from 2017 to 2018.
Tracey's made headlines a numberof times in her career.
She was the first servingConservative MP to take
maternity leave and also talkedvery openly about her breast
cancer diagnosis and treatmentduring the Covid pandemic.
(01:05):
In 2018, tracey resigned fromher role as sports minister over
delays in the crackdown onmaximum stakes for fixed odds
betting machines, saying thedelay was unjustifiable and
could cost lives.
Politicians come and go, butprincipals stay with us forever,
she said at the time.
Principles stay with us forever, she said at the time.
(01:27):
In 2021, tracey was appointed tochair a review of English
football in response tolong-standing issues over the
financial sustainability of themen's game.
The main recommendation of thereview was for an independent
regulator for English football,which very much put Tracey back
in the public eye.
Tracey chose not to stand forre-election as an MP at the 2024
general election and has goneon to become Managing Director
(01:47):
of Sport at HanoverCommunications.
Tracy is also a qualified FAcoach and manages a youth girls
football team.
Tracy, I'd love to start, if Ican, by understanding how sport
played a part in your own lifegrowing up.
Dame Tracey Crouch (02:07):
It's always been hugely important.
I was one of those sporty kids,into everything, I did
everything.
I lived on an estate with boysit was just myself and my sister
that were the girls on theestate.
So if you didn't want to playsport, you just didn't get to
play and I just carried on.
Really, I could always hold myown, you know, in the uh, in the
(02:27):
football games on the streetsor the cricket games or American
football.
You know beer mixing, whateverit was.
You know I was there and, um,yeah, just it.
It forms such an important partof my youth.
I didn't really have thenetwork or the infrastructure
around me as a kid to to doanything in a structured way, so
I didn't start playingcompetitive football until I was
(02:49):
at university and it's juststayed with me ever since.
Sue Anstiss (02:53):
And what sort of an athlete were you?
Were you good?
Dame Tracey Crouch (02:56):
Yeah, I was At primary school.
I was a sports captain.
I was house sports captain.
At secondary school I went toan all-girls school.
So obviously traditional sportslike netball, hockey, athletics
, tennis, you know not football,gymnastics, all that sort of
(03:16):
stuff I was in school netballteam.
But yeah, I was okay.
I played for the first team atuniversity in football and then
just kind of stopped reallyplaying properly.
And then that's when I startedcoaching the girls, because I
turned 30 and I felt like I wasthe oldest person on the pitch,
(03:36):
um at football and I was losing.
I was falling out of love withit.
Really, it was just it's notfun when you're being beasted by
16 year olds.
And so that's when I took mycoaching badge and I coached
girls 10 years.
I don't coach anymore, but Idid do some coaching at my son's
primary school with girls forabout two years, which I really
(04:00):
enjoyed.
Sue Anstiss (04:01):
I was going to ask you about that.
It's almost like banded on toall of your bio, isn't it?
And she's also an FA qualifiercoaching a youth team.
It's like attached to youforever.
I believe you're playing a bitagain now.
I saw that you kind of startedplaying.
How is that going?
Dame Tracey Crouch (04:13):
Yeah, it's veterans football.
I'm enjoying it most of thetime.
It's perhaps not as casual oras recreational as I thought, it
might be a bit more competitive, but yeah, I'm enjoying it.
I turned out as well for the umfor the seconds a couple of
weeks ago in a cup game which wewon.
I got 45 minutes of 11 aside.
(04:33):
The vets is seven aside, sodifferent uh, and I was playing
when I was in parliament.
I was captain of the women'sparliamentary football team, so
that was five aside.
So I feel like I've beenplaying all the disciplines
recently so but you know it'sfun really enjoying it.
Sue Anstiss (04:49):
I remember being at an event, I think at the house
of commons.
Dame Tracey Crouch (04:51):
You came along in your kit, I think you'd
literally come from playing agame to one of the meetings
fantastic, I used to love votingin my football kit because it
used to sort of kind of really,you know, raise a few eyebrows.
You were probably breaking somesort of parliamentary rule,
which I kind of quite liked, andcertainly pushing those
boundaries anyway.
Sue Anstiss (05:11):
And tell us a little bit about coaching, your
experience of coaching.
Obviously, we're doing a lotmore in that space now to try
and encourage more women to comethrough and coach at all levels
.
But what did you enjoy about itat the time?
Dame Tracey Crouch (05:23):
I coached girls and I didn't have any kind
of blood relationship with theteam.
Quite often in youth sport, youknow it is somebody's parent
that is involved.
So I really enjoyed just beingan outsider, coming in and doing
it because I wanted to do itand not because I had to do it
(05:44):
in order for the team to exist,and I learned actually quite a
lot from it.
I was not just the stuff oflearning how to coach girls, you
know, and skills and drills andall that sort of stuff, but
actually I learned how to engagewith people about sport in
different ways and I stayed withmy team from they're
(06:07):
effectively eight and nine whenI started and all the way up to
when they were 18.
And I see them now on socialmedia and their mums themselves
or they are, you know,fulfilling their professional
dreams.
I actually, when I was coachingthe key stage two girls at my
son's school, we were in atournament and one of the girls
(06:29):
that was in my football team wasa teacher at a school coaching
girls in that tournament.
They absolutely thrashed us aswell, so she took great joy in
that.
But um, uh, but so it wasreally nice.
It was a really nice journeyand I have nothing but really
fond memories, apart fromperhaps the really cold fingers
that I used to get putting upthe nets on a winter's morning.
(06:52):
Um, but it was.
It was nice.
I yeah, it was.
It was a fun time and it reallyadded to me as a human being.
You know I got so much out ofit.
But it also, from a politicalperspective, gave me a real
insight into some of thechallenges of grassroots
football and in particular, thechallenges of girls in
grassroots football how theywould get second dibs on pitch
(07:14):
allocation, how the facilitiesweren't appropriate for girls.
You know how you'd turn up on arecreational field and you'd
see boys weeing in bushes.
But you can't do that as an 11,12 year old girl.
You can, but it's not the nicestthing to do, and so you know.
It really opened my eyes to alot of the challenges, but
(07:35):
ultimately I got a huge amountfrom it.
Sue Anstiss (07:38):
Yeah, it's excellent to hear, isn't it?
And I think you're the firstcareer politician I've spoken to
on the podcast.
So was being a politician anambition for you from a young
age?
Is it something you felt youmight do?
Dame Tracey Crouch (07:50):
So I always say no to that answer.
And then you talk to any of mygirlfriends at school and they
say, yeah, no, absolutely.
We all knew she was going to bean MP.
But I don't really recall beingone of those really nerdy kind
(08:13):
of you know people that satthere and thought that I was
going to save the world.
I always felt like I was anaccidental politician.
I studied law at university andso, you know, genuinely thought
I was going to go off and be alawyer, but I kind of fell into
politics at a level and thenchanged my degree halfway
through to be law and politicsand then just fell into
parliament and then sort of kindof stayed hanging around
Westminster for the rest of mylife.
So I didn't think I ever wantedto be a career politician,
(08:35):
turns out that's kind of what itwas, well, up until recently
and is that a fairly typicalroute in to kind of come in and
work within parliament and thenpeople progress to becoming
politicians?
Sue Anstiss (08:46):
do you think yes and no?
Dame Tracey Crouch (08:47):
to be honest with you, there's lots of
different routes in.
You don't have to work inParliament to be a politician.
In fact, 2010 intake, of whichI was part of under David
Cameron, there were lots ofpeople who had never even set
foot in Parliament before.
There'll be a lot of peoplethat are now sitting in
Parliament who would never beenin parliament before because of
the way that they won theirseats.
(09:09):
A lot of people win their seatsby accident and don't
necessarily have that experiencethat others do, but I think
it's important to have a mate'sbag.
I think it's important to havepeople who have experience of
working in parliament and thosethat don't, and you just help
each other muddle along umthroughout your career, however
(09:29):
long that is, and one of thethings about politics, unless
you're in a very, very safe seat, um, your, your career can be
shorter than you think it'sgoing to be absolutely that is.
Sue Anstiss (09:38):
That is always a shocking piece, isn't it, of
overnight year, your job changes, as it were.
You were made parliamentaryunder secretary for sport and
tourism and heritage in 2015, sowas that, at the time, a post
that you very much wanted?
You talked to kind of your loveof sport and that side, but I
guess it's a broader role thanthat, isn't it?
Dame Tracey Crouch (09:56):
yeah, it's um.
I wouldn't have accepted anyother job in government and
actually even the proposal was asurprise, because I had spent
my first five years inParliament being, as I like to
term it, independent, minded thewhips and the prime minister
might call it other things but Ihadn't always supported the
(10:20):
government as loyally as I thinkthey might have hoped.
So my appointment wasunexpected and when David
Cameron rang me up, I wasgenuinely very surprised and, in
a way that I think is somethingthat happens more with women
than with men, asked him if hewas sure and whether or not he
actually genuinely had theconfidence in me to be able to
(10:42):
do the job, and once he told mevery clearly that he thought I
was going to be a round peg in around hole, I accepted, and
that was the start of my threeand three and a half years,
let's say, of ministerial career.
Sue Anstiss (10:59):
And at the time, as you came in, what were the
biggest challenges would you saythat sport was facing then in
2015?
I think?
Dame Tracey Crouch (11:06):
it had lost its direction slightly.
One of the first things we gotstarted on was a sports strategy
.
The active lives survey hadshowed that there'd been a bit
of a flat line in terms ofparticipation, and so we wanted
to have a look to see how wecould change that, if there were
any kind of ways to, to give ita bit of a kick, give it a bit
(11:30):
of boost.
But there are lots of differentthings that just weren't quite
working.
Governance was one of thoseaspects.
So the the sports strategybrought in a new governance code
which changed the way thatwomen were represented on
national governing bodies.
But there are also otherchallenges within that, and so
(11:52):
really the the sports strategykind of set out the direction
for me and then my successors.
For some time actually it tookI think it was only recently
that it was updated.
So it was a it was a reallyimportant piece of work to get
focused on straight away.
Sue Anstiss (12:10):
And was that something when you came in?
Is that something you as a newminister kind of recognized,
because obviously there havebeen others before you and
things had just continued on?
Was that, is that somethingthat you drove personally, that
you felt there needed to be moreof a change in strategy?
Dame Tracey Crouch (12:26):
I'd spoken about it when I was on the back
benches and I'd been on the DCMSselect committee where we had
looked at some of these issues.
But I also think that there wasan appetite within civil service
as well, and you know, I knowthat some of the narrative
recently has been about thecivil service being some sort of
beast that operates behind thescenes.
But sometimes if you get theright minister connecting with
(12:47):
the right members of the civilservice, you can really sort of
drive significant change.
And I think I just happened tobe in a really lucky position
where I had great civil servantswho shared an appetite for
doing something quitespectacular in in the field, and
we did.
And whether it was to do withintegrity in sport, whether it
(13:08):
was to do with participation,whether it was to do with PE,
which doesn't sit within DCMSbut requires really close
working with DFE, whether it'sto do with governance, you know
some of these things are not thesexiest of issues, but they
mean so much to sport and to thefuture of sport and so we just
had that, that connection, andit just worked really well.
Sue Anstiss (13:31):
I remember, actually, the first time I heard
you speak at an event when youwere sports minister I think it
might have been a sportrecreation alliance conference
at the Oval and I came home andI was absolutely raving about
you because you were soincredibly authentic and I felt
like you really cared and youunderstood sport and you weren't
in the nicest possible way, youweren't just reading the notes
that civil servants had given toyou, which I've been lucky
(13:53):
enough to be at lots of eventsand heard lots of ministers, and
that is sometimes the case andit didn't feel like that.
I think it's interesting.
You're saying I'm almost nottoeing the party line.
I and was not toeing the partyline.
I think you might have been thefirst Tory MP.
I came home and thought I'dreally like her.
It was a weird experience, Ishould say.
So I guess that's interesting,isn't it?
In terms of politics, do youfeel you've always been a
Conservative?
That was kind of where you were.
(14:14):
Was there any chance that thatmight not have been the case in
terms of your coming?
Dame Tracey Crouch (14:19):
into politics?
No, not really because of myage and my background and
everything else.
So I was studying politics whenJohn Major became prime
minister and John Major was ahuge inspiration to me and I'm
sure you don't often hear that,because actually in conservative
circles you always hear aboutMaggie Thatcher and everything
(14:39):
else.
But I was too young for MaggieThatcher.
She was there in myconsciousness but actually I was
too young to sort of kind ofreally understand her ideology
and what that meant andeverything else.
But for me John Major was there.
He was from a single parentfamily, which I was from a
single parent family.
He was at a grammar school.
(14:59):
I was at a grammar school.
He had ambitions to do thingsand very much set out his store,
his ideology about meritocracy,about working hard, about
opportunity, and all of thatjust sang to me.
And at the time the Labour Partywere in a different place.
They've been led by NeilKinnock and there was by Paddy
(15:21):
Ashdown and it just didn'treally it didn't click.
Had I been five years later,that person could have been Tony
Blair, and actually there isn'tmuch difference between the two
.
And so you know, I sort of kindof made my connections and
started working from a voluntaryperspective in the grassroots
of the Conservative Party, andalthough I'm very much in the
(15:42):
centre of the Conservative Partyand more of the left of the
conservative party, and althoughI'm very much in the center of
the conservative party and moreof the left of the conservative
party, it's just, you know, abit like a football team.
I kind of got my tribe and Istick with my tribe and and
that's it, and then we're upsand downs in that, in that
long-term relationship with theconservative party, but
(16:03):
ultimately I'd never be anythingelse up other than that.
But I'm a sort of kind of, youknow, a friendly, um, not a
critic.
I'm a sort of kind of I can becritical of my party and yet
still love it dearly, um, andyou know so.
But then on the issues, youknow, in Westminster I always
(16:24):
worked on cross-party issues,whether that be sport, whether
that was gambling, whetherthat's the issue of loneliness.
You know the charity sector,animal welfare, the environment.
You know, I just didn't seethem in this sort of kind of
tribal political party aspectand as a result I've managed to
maintain relationships withmembers from all parties
(16:47):
throughout my career and, andeven now, yeah, that's
interesting, isn't it?
Sue Anstiss (16:51):
last week we were at that Sky Sports salon event
and you were in the room andLisa Nandy was in the room and
she gave a bit of a talk with amicrophone.
I thought I mean it could havebeen.
You've said the things that shewas saying were all the things
that you could have said hadthat, had the microphone come.
So it's interesting, isn't it?
It doesn't need to be polarisedone against another.
We can all be working in thesame direction, as you say, in a
(17:11):
cross-party fashion.
Dame Tracey Crouch (17:13):
Sport is one of those briefs where there's
very little politics,parliamentary politics in sport.
I've always there's morepolitics in sport than there is
in Westminster.
I've always there's morepolitics in sport than there is
in Westminster.
And actually, you know, lisaspoke really well last week and
you know I texted her afterwardsto say that I thought she was
absolutely spot on and actuallyI thought so.
(17:36):
She came across as veryauthentic, she didn't make it
political, she didn't need to.
You know, gave me some heart.
That women's and girls' sportmay somewhere be on the agenda.
We haven't seen it yet, butmaybe it will be there and I
think that's an important thingfor her and for Stephanie
Peacock, her sports minister, toreflect on as they go forward.
Sue Anstiss (18:05):
And I was going to ask you and clearly you did some
amazing things in your role asminister.
But I've been in sport for over30 years and I do get
frustrated that repeatedly Ialmost don't see governments
using sport and physicalactivity as a tool perhaps to
tackle some of those widersocietal issues around poverty,
inequality, mental healthtouching on it, and I know it's
hard, it's a huge beast to kindof turn around, isn't it?
But but why do you think thatis?
And I guess, guess what wouldyou like to see change there if
(18:27):
it could?
Dame Tracey Crouch (18:29):
So I would say that they do, but they don't
do it enough and they certainlydon't PR it.
So I can't tell you how manycross-government committees I've
sat on where I don't know.
A minister from the Home Officeor the minister from Justice
has turned around and said Tracy, we need more sport money for
(18:52):
this.
And you sit there and say, well, actually, minister, minister,
you are already getting that.
You're already paying forwhoever to go into your prisons
and to support them, using sportto help with rehabilitation or
reintegration, or the homeoffice.
You know, your police and crimecommissioners are engaged with
(19:13):
sporting organizations to tacklegang crime or theft or things
like that.
In the health department, theyhave a huge physical health
budget, of which you would seesome of it in terms of rehab or
prehab.
So it is being used.
It's just not done in aconnected way and perhaps it's
(19:35):
not being well thought throughfrom a strategy perspective and
it's certainly not PR'd enough.
I would say that there'sdefinitely things happening that
we just don't know about, butwe should know about.
There is definitely room formassive improvement.
My proposal to the Boris Johnsongovernment, which was light but
(19:56):
never activated, was that Ithink that we need a
restructured Whitehall.
We need a department forwellbeing, and the department
for wellbeing basically bringstogether all the bits of other
departments that do some kind ofphysical activity.
Really focus on that, becauseat the moment they're often not
(20:17):
the priority issues.
So if you take, for example,environment DEFRA, they have all
the access to nature, canalsand waterways.
They all sit in there.
They don't put a real focus onthat.
School sports sits within DfE.
Dfe is all about nationalcurriculum and standards.
They don't necessarily do muchon school sport.
(20:38):
So it's like how can you bringall those bits that are in other
departments together under oneroof?
And I always said that if I ranmy fantasy department, the
primary mission would be toreduce the department of
health's budget, becauseactually this would all be about
prevention as well.
So you improve people'swell-being, you reduce their
(20:59):
chances of of going intohospital or reduce their
diseases and everything else, soactually you end up reducing
the the budget department healthsadly never happened no, and
and it has.
Sue Anstiss (21:12):
It's interesting, isn't it?
Because I've talked to suecampbell, to tanny, so, and
others have said thishistorically, in terms of active
transportation and all thosedifferent departments, how do
you get them all to so?
So why is that never?
Why has that never been apriority?
Why is that not?
Is it too complicated, is it I?
Dame Tracey Crouch (21:27):
think there's an element of
complicated.
I think also some people wouldjust they people always worry
about what the daily mail isgoing to say about it and that
it would be some kind of youknow, people would take the
mickey and mock it.
And you know, sadly, I thinkthere is an element of truth in
that.
But if you look at othercountries around the world, you
know they have very similardepartments.
(21:49):
The UAE, for example, you know,has a well-being department.
I remember, as lonelinessminister, I met the minister for
happiness.
You know it's just like, oh, Iwant to be the minister for
happiness and, by the way, thenumber one way to do that is to
get people more physicallymoving.
Sue Anstiss (22:06):
Um, but I I think there is a complex sort of kind
of aspect to it and you and Ihave obviously crossed paths a
lot too in the space of women'ssport.
So how are you feeling nowabout the place where
professional women's sport is interms of funding and equality?
That's a big question, but yeah.
Dame Tracey Crouch (22:24):
How long have we got to answer?
Uh, no, um.
So I think we have come onleaps and bounds, right.
I mean, let's be clear the lasttwo decades we've seen
transformation of women's sportinto something that isn't just
being talked about and it ishappening.
Do we have much further to go?
(22:45):
Absolutely of course we do.
But I do think that we shouldpause and reflect on how far
we've come and we can celebratewhere we've got to without sort
of kind of taking our eye offthe ball as to where we've got
to still go.
And I think we sometimes we'reso busy trying to get to where
(23:08):
we're going that we haven't kindof recognized the journey we've
been on.
And it has been challenging.
You know, and I love the factthat we we still celebrate
pioneers of sports that you know, without them we wouldn't have,
for example, today's lionesses.
And we've got some reallyexciting things coming up in the
(23:31):
calendar this year for women'ssport and I just hope that yet
again it it gives us anotheropportunity, just give it that
true nudge along a little bitfurther, whatever those
challenges might be and thereare still enormous challenges
the commercial aspect of it is ahuge challenge and sometimes
it's really easy to jump up anddown and be cross with people
(23:52):
for not investing, but what arethey investing in?
And why should they beinvesting in something that
isn't yet making them wealthier?
You know, let's be clear, lotsof people don't invest for
charitable reasons.
What is the purpose of it?
And so I think that there isstill a lot to do.
(24:12):
I don't know how we fill allthose gaps.
I don't know how we answer allthose problems or challenges.
I don't know what more we cando to get people, to get girls
active.
I don't know how we stress yetagain to secondary schools, for
example, that they have to offera diversity of the PE
(24:34):
curriculum to get girls moving.
I don't know how we continue toovercome challenges around
facilities.
I don't know how we make itclear that it's okay for a girl
to be in a sport, and we see itall the time.
I was reading a story over theweekend about two young girls
(24:55):
who've been criticized forlooking like boys because they
play football.
It's like how do we overcomethese challenges and these
barriers and I just don't know.
I don't know the answer to itall, and I wish I did.
I wish I had sort of kind oftime to sit down and think about
them all.
But then you know it's hard,it's really hard.
Sue Anstiss (25:15):
And obviously you are a massive football fan.
You've done a lot within theworld of football.
Do you ever get concerned that,with the ongoing growth and the
investment and profile inwomen's football, that other
women's sports, that widerwomen's sport, might be missing
out at all?
Dame Tracey Crouch (25:31):
No and yes if that makes sense, because
ultimately, at the end of theday, you know football as a
sport, men or women, justfootball as a sport is huge,
arguably the biggest sport inthe world, and therefore it is
(25:51):
as a consequence of it being ahugely popular sport that
women's sport is going to growon a trajectory that is
different to other sports.
How do other sports find theirvoice, their space in that world
is really difficult, but that'sthe same for sport, regardless
of whether it's in male orfemale.
(26:11):
And you know, I find it veryinteresting when you see surveys
around Gen Z and what they'rewatching and how they're
engaging the sport and howthey're getting into sport.
It's like, how do we make surewe're getting the next
generation into all sorts ofsports?
And I love football, don't getme wrong.
I mean, I thoroughly enjoywatching the sport, even though
(26:35):
I'm a Spurs season ticket holderand it's not the nicest thing
to be watching at the moment.
But I love watching the sport.
But I also love watching othersports.
I also recognize that footballis not everybody's sport, but
what we have to do is we have togive people the ability to see
(26:56):
a whole variety of sports andand enjoy them for what they are
and not try and just constantlyround football down people's
throats.
And that's why our medialandscape is so important.
That's why, when I was minister, I was talking to those in
charge of what was a far moretraditional media um platform
(27:19):
sort of back then only 2015, soyou know, a decade ago, still
much more traditional.
Getting women's rugby resultsinto the back pages was a.
That was one of my pet missions.
You know I was sitting theresaying I can read right down to
grassroots level in men's rugby,but I can't see what Bristol or
(27:42):
Harlequins or whoever was doingin the women's rugby, and
actually that became a bit of amission for me.
So I just think we just need tocarry on the conversation about
it.
But I don't worry about women'sfootball crowding out other
women's sport, because it's justhow do you get other sport in a
(28:02):
very crowded football space?
Sue Anstiss (28:05):
yeah, it's more of a football conversation, isn't
it as well too?
Um, I was going to go back towhen you were a minister.
You were the first conservativeminister to take maternity
leave and I know at the time yousaid it wasn't really a big
deal because other mps had hadmaternity leave and obviously
thousands of professional womentake maternity leave all the
time.
But how important was it foryou that you were so public
about that maternity leavediscussion and, and I guess also
(28:28):
, how did you find that balanceof being a young mother and
being a politician?
Dame Tracey Crouch (28:32):
God wasn't that young Sue.
I was 40 when I had Freddie, Anew mother.
A new mother, yeah, I said youknow what I was.
I was always really desperatelykeen to just take it all in my
stride and not really see myselfas anything special, because I
never quite understood thefascination as to why MPs going
(28:53):
on maternity leave was such abig deal when there are people
taking maternity leave fromreally challenging jobs all the
time.
And also my income was secure,and that isn't the case for
every woman taking maternityleave.
So I always found it slightlybizarre this fascination by it
all and I just got on in thesame way that everybody else
(29:16):
does.
In terms of maternity leave, Ihad a fantastic ministerial team
.
I had cover for three monthsanyway from another MP, but I
had a great private office whowould sneak questions to me on
WhatsApp if they knew that I'dwant to be involved.
And yeah, I took my threemonths and I was back in time
(29:36):
for the Rio Olympics.
So it was fine.
Everything just workedperfectly.
But it doesn't stop, you know,as your kids grow up, you know
other things pop up.
I mean, while we've been onthis call, you know recording
this podcast, Freddie's dentisthas rang me three times.
So you know it just doesn'tstop.
(29:57):
Do you need to take it?
No, no, no, it's fine, they'recalling me back anyway, but it's
, you know, you're just aworking mother.
I'm really lucky to have ahusband who's very supportive,
who has always enjoyed beingpretty much the primary carer
Monday to Thursday.
I get home and rewrite all therules on a Thursday and we still
(30:19):
do that.
You know, when I gave upworking in Parliament, everyone
would say, well, you must belooking forward to having Tracy
home at you know more?
And he was like I hope not,Don't feel well what the
consequence of that would be.
So yes, it is what it is and Ijust muddle on like every other
woman.
Sue Anstiss (30:36):
And Sally, you were diagnosed with breast cancer in
2020 and shared much of thatjourney very openly.
So I guess, firstly, how arethings today for you?
Dame Tracey Crouch (30:46):
As far as I know, all well.
So you never know what's goingon underneath, but look after
myself and just hope it justcarries on, you know not being
there?
Sue Anstiss (30:56):
Yeah, and how was it for you having something so
personal for you and the familyto to be made so public?
And I know I've I've kind oflooked back and seen some of the
interviews that you gave attime, and obviously it was
during Covid as well too.
Wasn't it so a time when peoplewere very concerned about going
to the doctors etc?
But were you pleased to be ableto use it in that way, so
publicly, to help others?
Dame Tracey Crouch (31:17):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, I was using my localNHS hospital.
So part of my reason for goingpublic was that I'd been spotted
in oncology a couple of timesand, unfortunately, the way of
the world as a politician isthat someone would buy that
information and pay someone alot of money for that.
So I thought actually it wasbetter for me to own the
(31:39):
narrative, to own the story,which is why we decided to go
public.
But as a consequence of that, Iknow that other people went and
got checked and I know thatother people found lumps and, as
it happened, I also became abit of a chemo buddy to people.
Actually, a guy who was goingthrough breast cancer saw me on
(32:00):
BBC Southeast doing an interviewcompletely bored from my chemo,
and he too was on exactly thesame cycle as I was in his
chemotherapy, albeit at adifferent hospital.
So we ended up becoming quitegood buddies and other people
got in touch with me afterwardsto say they'd just been
diagnosed and and I didn't mindand, and you know being able to
(32:22):
give people some, you know,share parts of my journey,
because everybody's journey isdifferent, but share my
experience and how I got throughit, some things that happened
some things that didn't happenand yeah, it's been.
It's been interesting, I found,when I was in Westminster quite
often people would from thebreast cancer world, would want
(32:42):
to talk to me a lot and I foundon a couple occasions that was
quite triggering.
So I did have to have honestconversations with myself about
how involved I wanted to be insome of the issues and step back
on a couple of occasions.
But I think if you knowyourself well and you won't know
the sort of things that driveanxieties and, in particular,
health anxieties, you can dothat.
(33:03):
You can kind of dip in and dipback out again, and that's what
I continue to do and after 14years.
Sue Anstiss (33:10):
You stood down as an MP in the general election in
2024, saying it was entirelyfor personal and positive
reasons.
So was it a very difficultdecision to make at the time?
No, I love it.
Dame Tracey Crouch (33:24):
No, not really.
I'm sort of one of those peoplethat once I've made a decision,
I'm very much at peace withthat, in the same way that when
I decided to leave government, Inever regretted it at all
because I made the decision.
Made the decision, I genuinelyhad felt like I'd had a
(33:45):
wonderful 14 and a half years inparliament, that I'd achieved a
lot.
I achieved almost noteverything, but almost
everything that I'd wanted to.
To that point in time, I foundmy breast cancer journey a
really enlightening experience,along with climbing Kilimanjaro.
Actually, I think the one thingI'd say to anyone who is
thinking about climbingKilimanjaro it will change your
(34:07):
life and it will change youroutlook on life.
And I did it with some uh somegirlfriends another one who was
who went through breast cancerat the same time as me.
That and, and the cancer journeyand my son growing up and all
sorts of different things, justall culminated in a, in a
decision to just go and dosomething else.
I turned 50 in July and I'mactually not somebody who's
(34:31):
frightened of turning 50.
In fact, I'm very much lookingforward to it, if only because
then I go up of age grade inpark run, um but um, and I'm
like fully embracing it.
So it was just I.
I have the next parts of myprofessional life to to get on
with.
I was never going to be apolitician for life did you know
(34:53):
that?
Sue Anstiss (34:54):
did you always know that you weren't going to be
well?
I thought you might be PM oneday.
I thought you'd be a marvelousprime minister gosh, don't.
Dame Tracey Crouch (35:00):
Honestly, I remember having this
conversation so I've neverwanted to be prime minister and
I had a lovely friend of minecame into westminster in the
middle of boris johnson's sortof kind of tribulations so yeah,
and she said exactly the samething.
So, like you know, I, I thinkyou should be promised.
(35:22):
I was like I don't want to beprime minister.
I said trouble is you've gotimposter syndrome.
And I was like I don't haveimposter syndrome.
She said no, no, you do.
You do I, you know you need togo see my life coach.
And so I was, you know,dispatched off to see the life
coach and after three hours ofdoing quadrants and color-coded
this, that and everything else,she was like no, you don't have
(35:43):
imposter syndrome, you justdon't want to be prime minister.
And I didn't.
And actually part of part of theproblem with politics and this
you know this is going to soundarrogant and I don't mean it to
be arrogant because I'm, that'snot who I am but part of the
problem in politics is sometimesthings happen by mistake, and I
could see what was going tohappen at the general election.
(36:05):
You know, long before I took mydecision to leave, I would have
probably won my seat.
And then you find yourself inopposition and either, before
you know it, you're eitherstanding for leader or you're in
the shadow cabinet, withpotential that next time you
then stand for leader, and thenone day you end up being prime
minister and I was like I justdon't want to be prime minister,
(36:27):
so I didn't want to be thisaccidental kind of prime
minister.
So I was just like, no, it'sbetter to just leave all
together.
And then I can't evenaccidentally turn up one day in
Downing Street.
Sue Anstiss (36:40):
Might you ever go back.
Is that done now?
It's done.
Dame Tracey Crouch (36:44):
And actually , no, it's like the way I see it
is.
You know, I had a 14-yearrelationship with Westminster.
I have some very fond memories.
There were times I absolutelyloved it.
There were times I didn't loveit so much, but I moved on.
(37:04):
I moved on from it.
You know I broke up with it andtherefore I'm not going to go
back to it and so, no, that's mytime in Parliament done.
Sue Anstiss (37:17):
And what advice would you give to any young
woman who's considering enteringpolitics today?
Dame Tracey Crouch (37:23):
So it's.
I mean, it's an incrediblecareer.
It's a credible opportunity forsomeone who is passionate,
who's driven to try and make adifference, as long as you
understand what the boundariesare.
So I think the mostdisappointed politicians I ever
met are those that have gone inand said that they want to
change the world, because youcan't change the world right,
(37:44):
but you can change the world ofindividuals.
So, by the way, probably onlythree out of 10, you would get a
successful outcome from, but ifyou help those three out of
(38:05):
those 10, you change their lives.
And that was what making adifference was about making a
difference to individuals, it'smaking a difference in the
community.
And then if you are lucky enoughto be in a position where you
can change a particular law oryou can change policy direction
(38:26):
or, in my case, you know bringin entirely different, you know
new strategies or governancecodes then you've done, you've
achieved a lot.
But there's also enormousfrustrations with being a
politician, in that you can'twin every fight.
Sometimes, even if it's themost sensible thing, you're
(38:47):
still up against people whodon't agree with you, and so it
can be frustrating as well.
And then the atmosphere inWestminster has changed since I
got elected, know a lot moreviral campaigns.
There is no such thing as apersonal life.
Everything you do is done inpublic, so it can be enormously
(39:08):
challenging, but ultimatelyunder date.
If you're going for the rightreasons, you will get an
enormous amount out of it.
Sue Anstiss (39:14):
You've since been appointed managing director at
Hanover for the sportsdepartment or sports division.
Is that what?
That?
What's your formal title there?
Managing?
Dame Tracey Crouch (39:22):
Director of Hanover Sports, so I deal with
all the sports clients andaiming to grow the business.
Just in case anyone's listeningand has a RFP ready to send
over, We'll put a little link inthe show notes here.
Sue Anstiss (39:35):
I must admit I was surprised at the time when I saw
the news and then I discoveredkind of researching.
You'd had these big roles incommunications in the past,
before you become an MP anyway.
So how have you found that roleand does it feel very different
coming back out of politics, oris it like going back to your
old life, pre-politics?
Dame Tracey Crouch (39:53):
It's a bit of both.
You know I was at a slightlylower level when I was in
consultancy before andcommunications before, so it's
nice to be at a more seniorlevel.
But you know I am learning alot about society that moved on
in those 14 years that I wasinside.
(40:14):
I do keep on saying Inside, Ido, I mean because it's an
institution, right.
So I do keep saying to peoplethat this is like a
reintegration back into society.
But yeah, it's fun, it's reallyfun, so I'm enjoying it.
Sue Anstiss (40:29):
I'm a very positive person.
What do you miss?
Is there anything you missaround the you know anything
significant that you miss aroundyour days as an MP?
Dame Tracey Crouch (40:36):
I miss my friends, I miss the ability to
change things.
Yeah, so all sorts of you knowthose sorts of things.
Sue Anstiss (40:43):
But you're enjoying lots of not being an.
Dame Tracey Crouch (40:46):
MP too I feel Exactly.
Sue Anstiss (40:49):
And in 2024, you were made a Dame in the Special
Honours for your contribution toparliamentary and public
service.
Is that anything you would everhave envisaged when you were a
young student studying politicsat university?
Dame Tracey Crouch (41:06):
Not at all.
Never mind the university bit.
I mean you're kicking afootball around the streets of
Hyde and Kent, you know, I'mjust like yeah, I mean I was,
honestly, I was a feral child.
So the idea that now somehowI'm a Dame Dame trace, you know,
you just don't think anythingof it.
But no, I mean it was a greathonor, it was a real privilege
and, um, you know, I stillsometimes, you know, think what
(41:27):
on earth did I get it for?
But then I also have tosometimes just recognize that I
did do some positive things aswell, and maybe that is actually
what it's about.
Sue Anstiss (41:41):
Thank you so much to Tracy for such an honest and
open conversation.
It's clear to see why she hadthe success she did, and we wish
her well for the future.
If you'd like to hear from moretrailblazers, there are over
200 episodes of the GameChangers that are free to listen
to on all podcast platforms orfrom our website at
fearlesswomencouk.
Previous guests include eliteathletes, coaches, entrepreneurs
(42:07):
, broadcasters, scientists,journalists and CEOs all women
who are changing the game insport.
As well as listening to all thepodcasts on the website, you
can also find out more about theWomen's Sport Collective, a
free, inclusive community forall women working in sport.
We now have over 10,000 membersfrom across the world, so
(42:28):
please do come and join us.
The whole of my book Game On theUnstoppable Rise of Women's
Sport is also free to listen toon the podcast.
Each episode of Series 13 is mereading a chapter of the book.
Thank you once again to SportEngland for backing the Game
Changers and the Women's SportCollective with a National
Lottery Award, and also thanksto Sam Walker at what Goes On
(42:51):
Media, who does such a brilliantjob as our executive producer.
And a final thank you to mylovely colleague at Fearless
Women, kate Hannan.
You can find the Game Changerson our podcast platform, so
please follow us now and makesure you don't miss out on
future episodes.
Come and say hello on socialmedia, where you'll find me on
(43:14):
LinkedIn and Instagram at SueAnstis, the Game Changers
Fearless women in sport.
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