In this emotional and unfiltered conversation, longtime Grand Canyon shuttle driver and tour guide Krocky Meshkin opens up about the devastation of the North Rim fire, the shocking loss of the Grand Canyon Lodge, and the ripple effects on his livelihood and identity. Just days before the blaze, Krocky was celebrating a life finally coming together—his business thriving, his future clear. Now, he's forced to start over.
Recorded while the fire was still 0% contained, this episode is a raw, intimate account of what it’s like to be on the inside of a disaster that has forever altered the Canyon and the community who calls it home.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Zeena (00:05):
This is the Grand Canyon Hiker Dude Show presented by
Hiken. Hiking plus kinship.That's Hiken. Together, we roam.
Here's your host, my hubby, andcofounder of Heikin, Brian
Special.
Brian (00:19):
Okay. A quick update on the Dragon Bravo fire and then a
conversation with KrockeMeshkin, a longtime Grand Canyon
tour guide and shuttle driverwho's familiar to many of you.
We'll start to get someperspectives from those most
affected by the fire that is injust a bit. First, the update
from this morning is that inspite of the significant
rainfall from the monsoon stormsyesterday evening on the South
(00:40):
Rim, the North Rim andspecifically the fire itself,
well, it just didn't get much.It didn't get enough.
So it was somewhat disappointingto hear today that we're still
at 0% containment, and theDragon Bravo fire has now burned
almost 9,300 acres with 529personnel assigned to fight the
(01:00):
fire. There is some good newsfar below the rim at Roaring
Springs. Yesterday, we reportedthat a hell attack team was
being inserted at the pump housedown there to begin defensive
measures should the firecontinue to make its way to the
bottom of the canyon. RoaringSprings sits about five and a
half miles and 3,600 verticalfeet below the North Kaibab
Trailhead and provides water toboth the North And South Rims.
(01:23):
And it came as a shock yesterdayto learn there was any kind of
threat that deep in the canyon.
Rob Roy Williams is the sectionchief of the firefighting team.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
We flew some hell attack guys over to the Roaring
Springs pump house. They wereable to go in there and complete
some, defensible space aroundthere. They're gonna go back in
there today. They're gonna putsome structure wrap around those
cabins as well as put somesprinkler kits in there. So if
that fire does decide tothreaten that anymore, that
(01:54):
we'll be able to protect thatvalue and ensure that fire does
not impact that that pump house.
Brian (02:00):
Jim King, meanwhile, is the fire behavior analyst. Here
he is on the fire's movement inRoaring Springs Canyon.
Krocky (02:06):
The good news is the fire behavior around the
remaining values up here on therim and then down into the
Roaring Springs Canyon where thewhere the infrastructure is for
the water system on both rims.All day yesterday yesterday and
and then then all all lastnight, there was no fire
movement in that drainagefurther securing those values at
(02:28):
risk. So that's very good newson the south side of our fire.
Brian (02:33):
So some good news inside the canyon for the time being.
The fire is growing though onthe north side, and teams were
sent to the area around theNorth Rim entrance station today
to secure structures there muchlike they did at Roaring
Springs.
Krocky (02:46):
Late in the day yesterday, had a south wind come
across the fire, which pushedthe fire to the north, and it
grew about one mile along alongthe Arizona Scenic Trail. That
fire behavior threw spot firesout close to one half of a mile
in front of itself. That firestayed active most of the night
(03:10):
last night. As of 04:30 thismorning, it was still burning
actively. So the key about thispart of the fire is it's in very
heavy fuels, what we call mixedconifer fuels.
So picture large trees and thenon the ground, dead logs that
hold heat and are very dry. Andso even with a little bit of
(03:31):
rain or high RHs, those fuelsare still available to burn.
Brian (03:36):
So still a long way to go. It was also mentioned that
the weather is expected to dryout again over the weekend and
that the fire is expected tostart growing again when it
does. Alright. Well, we metKrocke Meshkin in episode 71 of
the podcast, and today he's backto talk about his feelings
around the loss of Grand CanyonLodge and how he and others who
(03:57):
live at the canyon have beenaffected by the devastation.
Krocke lives off the land inValley about twenty minutes
south of the South Rim.
He was a tour guide for years,and in recent years, had begun
to fill the need for anothershuttle service, this one
specializing in rim to rim. He'dbuilt it into a strong enough
business that he was gonna payoff his vehicle and be totally
(04:17):
profitable for the first timethis year. And now this, with
access to the North Rim now cutoff for at least the rest of
2025, Krocke, like so manyothers, is being forced to
pivot. Life, it's been provenwith this situation, can come at
you fast. It was a week ago, aweek ago today, that this fire
(04:40):
was still essentially acontrolled burn on the North
Rim.
I'm sure from your vantage pointin the South Rim, you could see
the smoke, but but we weren'tworried about anything becoming
anything like what has happenedsince then. Know? A week ago,
people were still staying at theNorth Rim, staying at the Grand
Canyon Lodge, doing their rim torims. The trails were open. And
now a week later, everything haschanged.
(05:04):
And I'm just curious what thiswhole week has been like
Speaker 5 (05:09):
for you. We've all been incredibly shook. This did
happen so fast. You know? That'sinsane to think about.
A week ago, people were stillover there. And all that sort of
prompts these emotions of grief,shock, anger, everything coming
(05:29):
out. And, yeah, I'm stillwrapping my head around all
this. It it's been a very wildweek.
Brian (05:37):
What was it like, and what were you hearing as the
evacuation orders started tocome in? Because you've been a a
member of the the Grand Canyoncommunity for a long time now.
I'm sure you have friends on theNorth Side. What what was
happening? What were you hearingas as the evacuations began?
Speaker 5 (05:54):
The evacuations began on July 11. That's that's when I
got the first, you know, masstext. They're they're asking
visitors to leave. And suddenly,I'm thinking, okay. You've got
the two fires.
So the White Sage Fire is theone closer to Jacob Lake, and
that's possibly gonna block theexit point. You know, that's
(06:15):
that's initially what I'mthinking. I'm thinking, okay.
There's this other fire on theNorth Rim, but it's not that
bad. There's not cause forconcern.
There's this bigger one by JacobLake that is prompting the
evacuation of the visitors, andI'm thinking, well, you know,
I'm probably gonna have the weekoff. I probably won't do much
(06:35):
driving this week, and, youknow, I was ready to just accept
that and have a week off, anddidn't think it was a big deal
at that point.
Brian (06:45):
Were you hearing anything from the people that you knew on
the North Rim as they you know,you said the visitors got
evacuated first. I think it waslater the same day where you got
the go notice that it's time foreveryone to to get out, and that
is the first indication that wehad that the Dragon Bravo fire,
the one that affected and isaffecting to this day the North
Rim, and now down into thecanyon, that's the first
(07:07):
indication we got that somethingwas really, really wrong.
Speaker 5 (07:11):
Yeah. They started to evacuate all the staff, and I I
wrote down a timeline becauseeven my head is, like, tripping
out over all this stuff. What Iscanned back through my phone,
the visitors were one day, andthen that night, it was kind of
like, okay, this is interesting.We then, the next day, I
(07:32):
remember getting set. You know,they say set.
You're in set position. Youknow, prep prepare yourself
because you might need toevacuate. And I should be clear.
I'm not on the North Side atthis point. I'm on the South
Side while I'm getting all thesetexts.
So this would have been July,yeah, July 12. The staff is
(07:56):
asked to evacuate very promptly.It goes from set, and then I
feel like it was maybe an houror a couple hours later, it was
go. A go order, evacuate now. Iwas waiting because I thought I
might possibly get calls.
On the day that the public, thevisitors were asked to evacuate,
(08:18):
I did get a call that day,somebody needing a ride. It was
a couple of hikers on the SouthRim. They were gonna rent a car,
and so I was driving them toFlagstaff on that day so they
could go to the airport and andget a rental car. And I was
just, you know, I thought maybepeople are gonna be calling me,
(08:39):
maybe I'm gonna rush over thereand help, and it also was a
balance of maybe I'm just gonnabe in the way. You know, maybe
they're evacuating these people,they're trying to get all the
vehicles out, everything.
You know, I wasn't gonna go overthere without somebody asking me
for help, or asking me to goover there at that point.
Brian (08:58):
So what was it like when, you know, you wake up Sunday
morning, I assume if you'd evengotten sleep, and and, you know,
now we're talking about we'velost the Grand Canyon Lodge.
And, you know, the night before,as we all went to sleep, I think
that, at least for me, you couldstart to see on the map that it
(09:19):
was inching closer and closer tothe lodge area. And but it still
wasn't there yet. And then weget up Sunday morning, find out
that at about 03:00 in themorning, the the Grand Canyon
Lodge was was lost. What wasyour reaction?
Speaker 5 (09:34):
Initially, it was just shock. You know? It was
disbelief. And I I do wanna saygetting in all this stuff, you
know, so much respect to thecrews that were fighting this
fire that had their lives on theline. So much respect to these
people.
(09:55):
I'll back it up a little bit. II wanna get into the lodge with
you. I wanna talk about that daybefore. So July 12, you know,
everyone's evacuating. I'm I'mseeing from friends.
I have a friend who left for theBryce Marathon. He he had
actually left, and he put a postonline. He said, it's not
(10:17):
looking good for the North Rim.And that really made me wonder.
This is one of my friends.
He's he's just an incredibleGrand Canyon hiker. He's done
over 50 summits in the canyon,and he he says, it's not looking
good for the North Rim. Comingfrom this guy, I was like, what
is he talking about? You know,what is that? Like, on what
level does that mean?
(10:39):
July 12, I had gone to somefriends had a sort of a delayed
fourth of July party for thecommunity. For anyone who was
out of town for fourth of July,they all got together. So that
was Saturday night, Julytwelfth. I'm at a party. I'm
excited.
You know, I'm telling peopleabout this lifestyle that I have
now. Essentially, I had createdmy shuttling company in in 2023,
(11:03):
but I held on to other employerswhile that took off. It wasn't
until late last year that Idecided to go all in with the
shuttling company. And I wasbasically explaining to them. I
said, I think I have a job thatI don't I don't have to con have
concern about AI taking my jobor anythings like this.
Like, to drive that route rim torim, you know, anyone who does
(11:27):
that, TransCanion, othercompanies, you know, these are
great drivers. Those arewinding, twisting roads,
everything. I'm not gonna see aWaymo doing that route. Right?
So I'm thinking I got total jobsecurity the next five to ten
years.
I I found something special, andthat was the vibe. That was the
vibe at the party. Everybody Iknew, you know, we're chatting.
(11:48):
There was smoke everywhere. Youknow, there was smoke in the
air, but nobody there there wasno feeling on Saturday night
that the North Rim Lodge wasgonna burn down, that the North
Rim was then gonna be closed forthe remainder of 2025.
(12:10):
There was not that feeling thatnight. It was a sudden blow on
Sunday morning. And this is
Brian (12:17):
a bunch of Grand Canyon people. You know? You guys are
in the know. You'recommunicating with each other.
There was no indication onSaturday night other than the
fact that, you know, you maybeyou're starting to see the fire
inch toward the the lodge, butit was even hard to fathom then
as it got closer that, well,surely it's gonna be protected,
and surely this can't happen.
That's the vibe that that youall had at that party.
Speaker 5 (12:38):
Yeah. And and just knowing the topography, you
know, it's on a peninsula. It'sright out there on a peninsula
that I think for one thing,shows you how big the fire had
now built up to be, and theconditions insanely dry,
insanely hot. We're in a heatwave this week. And the the
combination, you know, for thatto continue down, you know, this
(13:02):
peninsula that has a hugeparking lot, that has places
that could be set up to fightit, was just yeah.
It it it was unbelievable, andthe photos came out. So there
was there was a call for thelocals and residents. We were on
a group call getting informationdirect from the park service on
Sunday morning. We got So
Brian (13:23):
what happened pool Sunday morning? Let me just back up
just for a second, because yougo to this party. I assume you
leave this party at some point.You probably go back and go to
sleep, and it when you woke upthe next morning that you found
out what happened?
Speaker 5 (13:39):
Yeah. And not even think the And
Brian (13:42):
call no whistling the night before, and then you wake
up in the morning, and the lodgeis gone. What's your reaction?
Speaker 5 (13:49):
Completely gone. Complete disbelief. The photos
coming out, that was I mean,that was the evidence. That was
like, okay. This thing hasburned.
And those photos just startedpassing around. Like, I saw
those fly from page to page toperson to person so quick.
(14:09):
Everybody was talking about it.So that's Sunday morning. We're
still kind of digesting it.
You know? It's like the grief.It's like the loss of a loved
one. You lose that, and you'rein this state of shock suddenly
where where, like, it's like youthink, like, you blink your
eyes. You're like, no.
No. No. That that didn't happen.It's still there. You know?
(14:29):
We're still gonna go over there.That you know? And it it takes
days to process that. That waswhen I started getting calls
from people that don't even liveat Grand Canyon, was the
thirteenth. Know, thatafternoon,
Brian (14:41):
it seemed to blow up to now national news. When did that
mindset start to I don't know.When did it start to shift for
you? Because, you know, not onlyare you someone who is obsessed
with the Grand Canyon, and hasbeen part of community for so
long, you've got yourlivelihood, you know, tied
(15:02):
directly to the Grand Canyon,and tied directly to folks'
ability to access the North Rim,and to be able to do rim to rim.
That's that is your clientele.
That's your livelihood. So howlong did it take it for you to
your mindset mindset to justshift, and be like, wow. Wait a
second. This isn't just atragedy that is affecting Grand
(15:25):
Canyon Lodge and everything onthe North Rim and all the people
who live there, but now mylivelihood is affected too.
Speaker 5 (15:32):
Yeah. It it, you know, it wasn't the initial
thing. I I wanna be clear aboutthat. You know, it wasn't like
my business, my money, that kindof stuff. You know?
It was it was so much thepeople, the friends that lost
everything, the friends on theNorth Rim that had to evacuate
and leave stuff behind, thinkingabout the ecosystem, the the
(15:52):
North Kaibab Trail, you know,and suddenly realizing it was
beyond that. We we thought thelodge was one thing, and then
we're realizing this is actuallyhitting the North Kaibab
Trailhead, and that sort ofstarted to come in by the end of
the thirteenth, the fourteenththat I'm realizing rim to rim is
(16:13):
never gonna be the same. I'mpotentially not gonna be able to
operate. And in order to run abusiness, I should clarify too,
for people who don't know me,I'm probably one of the last
small business owners to operateon the North Rim Of The Grand
Canyon. You have the lodge, andall the structures are owned by
the Park Service, but you havepeople, you know, companies come
(16:36):
in and they operate the lodge.
They operate the general store.For me, I had gotten my
authorizations through theNational Park Service to operate
as a small business, and youhave to pay all kinds of fees to
do that. My insurance is over$500 a month to do those drives.
(16:57):
The Park Service wants me to beinsured up to $1,500,000 in case
I were to cause some damage tothe Grand Canyon. You know, in
case I were to back into theNorth Rim sign and destroy it,
I'm paying out these insanefees.
That's the stuff that startedto, you know, hit me eventually.
It was like, oh my god. I'm notgonna be making any money, and
(17:19):
I'm gonna have to call a shot,basically. I could still drive
in Arizona. I have all mypermitting with the state.
However, if I wanna stayofficial with the park service,
I have to keep paying all ofthis overhead to the park
service, and it's it's possiblygonna be over a year, you know,
(17:40):
before I'm doing that kind ofbusiness again.
Brian (17:44):
So, what did you decide to do? Have you made any
decisions about your future?
Speaker 5 (17:49):
I think there's options. You know, I I I have to
hold on to this belief thatthere's options. For me, the
Grand Canyon changed my life.When I arrived to Grand Canyon,
I had three maxed out creditcards. I had been making $8 an
hour, and I was driving a vanthat cost me $800 when I showed
(18:11):
up to Grand Canyon ten yearsago.
My life was really bad. Youknow, I was really struggling to
survive, and I got this job atGrand Canyon that essentially
pulled me out of debt, pulled meout of, you know, poverty. I
was, you know, instead of havingthis budget of, like, $20.30
bucks a week for food, suddenly,I felt like I was living like a
(18:33):
king. I was working at Pink JeepTours. Geology, and I was
learning about biology and floraand fauna, and I was making
really good money.
And the Grand Canyon, like, I Ineed to put that out there. The
Grand Canyon saved my life. Itchanged my life. I essentially
(18:56):
had to start over, you know, atthe time I moved here, and
things went so well. And it justkept, you know, getting better
and better throughout the years.
I had a plan to start thisbusiness, and the business was
(19:16):
my way of creating my ownschedule. When you work for the
other companies around GrandCanyon, you're asked to work all
the holidays. You're giving awayyour summer. You are
essentially, you know, helpingpeople to have a great vacation,
and you're not getting to dothat yourself. And this year
(19:37):
looked like a year that I wasgonna be able to improve my
quality of life.
I took a vacation for fourth ofJuly. You know, my last time to
the North Rim was July 1. I hadworked with a group on July 1,
and this was the first year inten years that I took a vacation
(19:59):
on fourth of July weekend, whichironically is when that
lightning strike happened.
Brian (20:05):
So what so have you made a decision on what's next for
you?
Speaker 5 (20:08):
Sorry. I'm getting yeah. I I I
Brian (20:11):
It's a lot, Krocke. This is a lot to keep straight It's
in your a lot to talk about,man. It's emotional. It's might
be infuriating in some regards,but
Speaker 5 (20:21):
Yeah. You know, you've
Brian (20:22):
got you've got to move on. So what's next?
Speaker 5 (20:24):
And for the listeners at home, my my laughter is not
like, I I I have to like findsome humor in all.
Brian (20:30):
It tells Yes. Levity above all, Crockett. It's just
through a lot of a lot of darktimes
Speaker 5 (20:35):
in life.
Brian (20:36):
Don't you worry about that.
Speaker 5 (20:37):
Yeah. I have to find some humor in this. There's
nothing there's nothing definedfor my future. I have options,
and I think what it looks likeis I'm gonna shift into
documentary filmmaking. I hadhiked rim to rim with a retired
NASA engineer who lost hisvision due to glaucoma.
(20:57):
We did rim to rim with him lastyear. And I had permits that I
got permits through the NationalPark Service to film that whole
thing because he wanted hisstory told. He wants to inspire
others who have a family memberor are losing their vision and
show them that even once you'vegone blind, can still do cool
things like rim to rim. So heactually yeah. Over it was over
(21:23):
a week ago.
It was before fourth fourth ofJuly weekend. He had invited me.
He's he's gonna go for a worldrecord, the largest group of
blind people to summit MountKilimanjaro, and so they invited
me on that to to document theirjourney. And there's there's 11
of them, so they do have a planto kinda pull together money and
(21:44):
and find a sponsor for this doc.And so, I haven't quite got the
green light on it, but it itlooks very possible that, you
know, that was just gonna be atrip, and I have clients booked
all the way September, October,November this year.
Many of those clients I've beenon the phone with, I've been
texting with, I've been callingthem, you know. Of course, some
(22:07):
of these people have never evenseen the Grand Canyon. They were
planning rim to rim this year,and that's not gonna happen. My
plan was I was gonna go doKilimanjaro, come back, and
finish out my business for theyear before diving into the
dock. So, you know, as astroubling as everything is and
and also just allowing myselfthat space of of allowing time
(22:32):
to process, allowing time tothink about it, It's it's likely
that I will dissolve theshuttling portion of the company
and then dive into thedocumentary, put the full focus
on these two docs.
Brian (22:47):
You say dissolving the company with an eye toward
coming back when things change,or or what?
Speaker 5 (22:54):
Well, the funny thing is, I purchased
rimtorimshuttle.com. I was soconfident in the company, I
said, you know, I I ought toclaim that. Nobody's going by
just rim to rim shuttle. And andmind you, I I set out to do
tours. Originally, I had thisCUA, the the commercial use
(23:14):
authorization to do road basedtours and and trail hiking, and
I just struggled to advertisethat.
And so this year, I only got theauthor authorization to shuttle
people. I do not have theability to give people tours
this year. And now this youknow, if I had that
authorization, they when youapply for these things with the
(23:36):
park service, that cutoffhappens at the March. And so
that's it. I cannot give peopletours.
With with ten years of knowledgeworking as a Grand Canyon
expert, I could get a job withanother company, but I'm not
gonna be able to do that throughmy company. So, yeah, it looks
(23:56):
like it would make the mostsense to just stop operating,
and it's it's one of thesethings. They're they're saying
close for the rest of the year.I think I have to on the side of
caution. We have to considerit's it's not just rebuilding.
It's gonna be cleanup. They'repossibly not gonna let any
(24:19):
citizens in there because ofsome of the toxic materials that
could have been spread aboutfrom the burning of some of
these structures. Wastewatertreatment plant, we know for
sure was one of the structuresdamaged. It's possible they're
not gonna let citizens in untilall that cleanup has occurred.
Then I know there's been a lotof talk too.
(24:40):
I mean, everyone's throwing outgreat ideas of, like, a
temporary lodge, or maybe theycan just allow access to the
trailhead before the lodge a newlodge is completed. And so,
yeah, I I think it it would justI would just be wasting money.
(25:00):
You know, I'd be paying outmoney that it would it you know,
it'd be better to let this onego, and whenever things are back
up, you know, see about comingback as, you know, a new new
design, a redesign myself.
Brian (25:20):
Isn't it something that we're talking about, you know,
all these future plans, and notjust for you, but what the
future might look like for theNorth Rim that we're talking
about this while this fire isstill we found out this morning,
it's 0% containment, ninetythree Zero.
Speaker 5 (25:36):
Growing still
Brian (25:37):
still penetrating deeper into the canyon where it becomes
more and more difficult toactually fight the fire. It it
seems like that part of this isis being, you know, not really
reported. It seems like thenational media, even the media
here in Phoenix, are justfocused on the lodge still a few
days later. They're focused onthe North Rim. They'll say the
(25:59):
fire burning on the North Rim,and you just kinda wanna scream
and say, guys, this is in thecanyon.
And we can tell by looking atthe maps that it has ravaged the
upper portion of North Of TheNorth Kaibab Trail, all the way
from the trailhead down to SupaiTunnel, best we can tell. And
(26:20):
there are hell attack teams nowwho are protecting the area
around the pump house, which, ofcourse, of course, is just North
Of Of Manzanita, betweenManzanita and Roaring Springs.
And that is staggering to eventhink about, that that fire is,
you know, working its way down,not necessarily down the the
trail parts itself. But, youknow, if if you if you don't
(26:45):
know, the lodge is basicallyright above Roaring Springs and
Roaring Springs Canyon. So thefire that that was in the lodge
area is is working its way downthe canyon right there.
That's its fastest route to getto the bottom. But the fact that
we're even having this thisconversation is is pretty
stunning, and and the fact we'retalking about people changing
their livelihoods, and we're,you know, coming up with
(27:06):
fundraisers and t shirts, andand this fire is still burning.
How crazy is that to you?
Speaker 5 (27:12):
Yeah. Yeah. 0%. It's burning, it's growing. I would
love to see more of thatcovered.
I had been asked to do aninterview for ABC fifteen
yesterday, and that aired lastnight, and I probably got, out
of what they interviewed me, Imaybe got 10 words in, made the
cut. You know? So that was coolthat they they gave exposure,
(27:38):
and they interviewed some otherpeople around the park and
people at Jacob Lake. All theexposure is very welcomed right
now because, yeah, it's it's notjust me. I I wanna be clear.
You know? It's not just about meand my company and all that
stuff. There's so many peoplewith loss. So to talk more
about, yeah, the currentsituation. This fire is growing.
(28:00):
It's going into the canyon.Every night, the the past couple
nights at least, I've been upthere. If you stay after the sun
sets, the flames come into view.You're watching the smoke as the
sun is setting. As the sky getsdarker and darker, boom, the
orange flames come into view.
And that was absolutelydevastating the other night. I
(28:22):
don't I don't think I could'vedone this interview a couple
days ago without having thattime to kinda swallow that. You
can see it right back behindBuddha Temple. This would be
near Whidfors Point, if anyone'sdone the Whidfors Trail on the
North Rim. That's gonna be allfried.
This is you you mentioned itflowing to, like, Roaring
(28:43):
Springs and that kind of stuff.That one's gonna be the Transept
Canyon is you know, when youstep out of the parking lot and
there's that little sign thatsays Transept Canyon. I'm
talking about the parking lot onthe North Side. A lot of I see
this all the time. Visitors stepout, and they think they're
seeing the Grand Canyon.
But there's a little wooden signthere that says Transept Canyon,
and then it says Grand CanyonView with an arrow. It's trying
(29:06):
to tell people, hey, this isjust a side canyon. But, yeah,
that one, all that stuffdumping, you know, the ash and
debris dumping into the canyonas well. It It's growing. Storms
started arriving, which that'san I wanna get into that in more
detail.
(29:26):
But, now we have the situationof rain that is possibly gonna
wash some of the materials ofthese structures into the
canyon.
Brian (29:34):
Well, you posted something on Facebook this
morning, and I encourageeveryone to follow Crocky. You
mentioned the rain, and you hada pretty poignant moment last
night, it looked like to me,where a lot of introspection,
and you went for a a run alongthe rim trail as these
thunderstorms rolled in, and wegot heavy rain. I think we're
(29:54):
all a little disappointed to tosee the briefing this morning
and still see the 0%containment. So perhaps the
thunderstorms had some effect onthe fire, but not nearly to the
the extent that we were hopingfor.
Speaker 5 (30:08):
Correct. Yeah. Last night was wild. I can walk you
through that one. Essentially, II wasn't gonna go back up.
I felt like I needed a breakfrom it, and that's sort of been
the psychology of, like, do Iwatch this? Do I just go to
Flagstaff and and, you know,ignore this? You know, what do I
(30:31):
do with these days? And I sortof had a moment where I was
like, I think I need to justbear witness to all this. I
think I need to go visit with myfriends.
North Rim employees have nowbeen brought over to South Rim,
some of them. And, you know, I Ispent the past few days visiting
with other employees, other tourguides, essentially, tour guides
(30:55):
on the South Rim that theyessentially they're not affected
as their job, but you canimagine what it would be like to
have to go out and give a tourto excited visitors who've just
shown up, and and you're deadinside. You know? You are so
depressed, and you're having toput on a show and and give a
tour to these folks. I witnessedthat yesterday.
(31:17):
One of the the Park ServiceInterp rangers was giving a
geology talk while the fires arehappening right behind him, and
and, you know, he he definitelyacknowledged it, but you could
feel it in his voice of, like,you imagine everyone having to
continue to work on the SouthRim as they are hearing the
stories of their friends,possible family members, people
(31:40):
who they don't know what's next.They don't know how long it's
gonna be till they can go backto that culture and that
lifestyle of living on the NorthRim.
Brian (31:49):
I imagine that the emotions, you know, we've talked
about it. I've just kinda runthe gamut for you across the
entire spectrum. I'm surethere's sadness. I'm sure
there's some anger. You have tohave some optimism as you look
forward.
So many things going throughyour mind. What is the
overriding emotion for you rightnow?
Speaker 5 (32:13):
I think the overriding emotion for me is
empathy. I have to have empathyfor for people, for the
ecosystem, you know, the forest,the the biology, the animals, I
have to have empathy. I I'veI've kind of gone through, you
(32:33):
know, the classic stages ofgrief, the the disbelief, the
anger, the rage, you know, allthat stuff. I I've definitely
gone through that, and a lot ofmy friends, you know, we've
we've had conversations where,you know, these converse we're
like, this is just us talking.You know?
We're not we need to get allthis stuff out. This is not
stuff we necessarily would wannaput on record, you know, but
(32:56):
just to talk some of that angerand and grief out. I've been
going through all that stuff,especially with friends, and and
now I think it's all aboutempathy. I had gone up to do the
interview with the newsyesterday. I decided to stay up
there, and I decided to do oneof my favorite runs on the top
(33:19):
of the canyon is running alongthe trail of time.
You park at Yavapai GeologyMuseum, and you can run along
all the rock layers without themadness of dropping into the
canyon. You can have yourselfjust like a nice little five k
run. And so I decided to do thateven though the storms were
coming in, and I had a veryspiritual moment. As the rain
(33:43):
got stronger, I was now inbetween Yavapai Geology Museum
and the Grand Canyon Villagearea, the rain gets heavier, and
hail starts falling. Thunder isechoing throughout the canyon.
Giant storm clouds are rightoverhead. The smoke is in the
distance on the North Rim. As Iget to about Verkamp's,
(34:06):
lightning is now flashing. Morehail, more rain, and I decide
I'd better go stand on thatporch. I I knew I was gonna get
wet, so I didn't wear a shirt,so I couldn't go inside
anywhere, and I I kinda screwedmyself over in that way.
But I I just wanted to be in it.I just wanted to, you know, feel
(34:26):
the rain. I just I needed Ineeded an emotional moment
because I was getting so tenseand so angry about everything. I
needed this sort of release andthis emotional moment. I end up
standing on the porch atVercamps.
So Vercamps is that little, youknow, gift shop run by the GCC
(34:47):
that's close to El Tamar Hotel,and that thing is older. I I
believe that's over a 100 yearsold. That's older than the North
Rim Lodge was, and it was fun tostand on, you know, a piece of
history, watch the smoke on theNorth Rim, the rains coming
down. There was a very calmingfeeling. There were tourists
(35:11):
around that were they they theywere just reading books.
You know? They I don't know ifthey had hiked the trail of
time. They were gonna wait outthe storm and hike back, but,
yeah, they seemed so relaxed,and and to just be around that
kind of energy, even for amoment, felt good. A GCC
(35:32):
employee stepped outside of hercamps, and he was poking at or
peeking at the fire, you know,looking over to the smoke. And
just then, it it seemed it washitting the Dragon Bravo Fire
area, the Whitforce Point, andthat plateau and the Peninsula.
(35:53):
And I looked on my radar, andand sure enough, it was. You
know, we we've seen that too,all the posts on on your
Facebook page and everything,that the rain arrived, a nice
dousing of rain hit, The smokewas turning more of a white
color, and flames were burstingout, you know, big orange flames
that we're looking with thenaked eye at this point over 10
(36:15):
miles away. Giant flames werebursting out as that rain hit,
and then the flames kinda dyingout. Just incredibly symbolic. I
then, as the rain calms, I startrunning back, and those photos
you were talking about, yeah,the the post I did, that was on
(36:36):
the the run back becausesuddenly, it was like the
limestone was wet.
The rain is on the other side.There was such a calming feeling
of hope. The electris literalelectricity in the air.
Lightning lightning was I Iforget what you call that, but
it was like cloud to cloudlightning was happening. I
(36:57):
didn't feel at risk, but it itwas a little foolish, I'll
admit.
Running in this storm out thereon the edge of the canyon was
was was foolish, but I
Brian (37:06):
You were I probably thinking, what else could go
wrong?
Speaker 5 (37:07):
Right? Yes. This was my my, yeah, climax moment in
the film where the the characteris nothing to lose. And and
yeah. So I just took it all in,and and by the time I got to
it's called Grandeur Point.
It's it's really close toYavapai Geology Museum. It's the
one point that sticks out there.And all these tourists had kinda
(37:32):
shown up with their tour guide.They're in ponchos. I'm here
shirtless, covered in water, andwe all kinda watched the sunset
there, and the rainbow came out,and it just felt magical.
Brian (37:47):
And those pictures that you took, those images you
captured, you could feel thatmagic, Krocke, because you man,
you you posted them in black andwhite, and that may seem
counterintuitive with all thecolor in the Grand Canyon, but
they were serene and justabsolutely gorgeous. Some of the
some of the best images I Ithink I've ever seen, and I'm
(38:09):
pretty critical of those kind ofthings. I think that that was
something special, and I hopeeveryone can can go check that
out. You mentioned empathy. Youalso mentioned anger.
You just said, you know, you'reangry about everything. How do
you make those two emotions worktogether? That can be tough.
(38:31):
It's a tough balance.
Speaker 5 (38:33):
I've seen great people in my lifetime figure
that out, and anyone who can dothat is somebody I I really
admire to have that passion, tohave that drive, yet also lead
with the empathy. And that's Ithink this is my moment of
(38:54):
realizing how I wanna come outof this thing. I felt my life
was amazing. I felt my life wasgetting really good, and it was
a sudden shock of, like, oh mygod. I'm screwed.
How am I gonna make a living? Ithought I was moving into a
world, you know, where a lot ofpossibilities were coming my
(39:17):
way. I don't have kids. I don'thave a family, but, you know, it
was looking more clear that evensomething like that could be a
possibility as well as my lifewas going, and definitely days
of spiral of thinking, well, Idon't know what's gonna happen
now. And so, if I were to letmyself spiral, and let myself
(39:41):
get angry and point fingers,it's not gonna fix this.
It's not gonna restore thoseforests. It's not gonna restore
the damage to the North KaibabTrail. It's not gonna bring back
the history of that lodge, theitems in the lodge. Think of the
kachinas. There were kachinacostumes in there.
There were Navajo rugs in theNorth they're called the Grand
(40:04):
Canyon Lodge. It's veryconfusing for people that don't
live here, I should point out.It's called the Grand Canyon
Lodge, but it's on the NorthSide, so some of us call it the
North Room Lodge. We so, yeah,we have to have empathy for for
all that kind of stuff, youknow, is essentially my lesson
from yesterday. This was thegift that was given to me in
(40:26):
that storm.
The rain didn't put everythingout, right? We got news that the
fire is growing, yet I was ableto have this spiritual moment
sort of bringing me back to theground. You know, there's that
feeling when you get angry, youget tense. There's a feeling,
like, of numbness, and I felt somuch last night as I was
(40:48):
essentially just crouched on thelimestone, the wet limestone of
the South Rim, an ancientseafloor, 280,000,000 years old,
that feels like it comes back tolife whenever it's covered in
water. I'm crouched on therehaving my moment of just, you
(41:09):
know, I I definitely agree withfolks who want answers, and
that's not for me to give.
Right? This is gonna come downto investigations and whatnot.
But, yeah, I I think this shouldbe covered more. I think people
should ask questions, and Ithink the root of these
questions is how do we make abetter world? Because I always
(41:33):
imagined I'd be able to show mykids, my grandkids, those trails
and those forests, thosebeautiful aspen, fir, ponderosa
pine forest that will now belost and will take over a
hundred years, if not twohundred years, to return to the
state that we saw him in a weekago.
Brian (41:53):
Krocke, thanks for doing this, man. We're we're rooting
for you. We're rooting foreveryone up there. There's no
doubt it's hard, and there's somany of us in the hiking
community who who feel the loss.But, you know, I think it's
important as well to acknowledgethat we don't fear feel it
nearly as deeply as those wholived there and are part, truly
(42:14):
part of the day to day GrandCanyon family.
So thank you for coming on andsharing. It's greatly
appreciated, and it helps us,you know, really put the the
human side to this story. So onbehalf of everyone in our
community, thank you.
Speaker 5 (42:30):
I appreciate that, Brian.
This is the Grand Canyon Hiker Dude Show presented by
Hiken. Hiking plus kinship.That's Hiken. Together, we roam.
Here's your host, my hubby, andcofounder of Heikin, Brian
Special.
Brian (00:19):
Okay. A quick update on the Dragon Bravo fire and then a
conversation with KrockeMeshkin, a longtime Grand Canyon
tour guide and shuttle driverwho's familiar to many of you.
We'll start to get someperspectives from those most
affected by the fire that is injust a bit. First, the update
from this morning is that inspite of the significant
rainfall from the monsoon stormsyesterday evening on the South
(00:40):
Rim, the North Rim andspecifically the fire itself,
well, it just didn't get much.It didn't get enough.
So it was somewhat disappointingto hear today that we're still
at 0% containment, and theDragon Bravo fire has now burned
almost 9,300 acres with 529personnel assigned to fight the
(01:00):
fire. There is some good newsfar below the rim at Roaring
Springs. Yesterday, we reportedthat a hell attack team was
being inserted at the pump housedown there to begin defensive
measures should the firecontinue to make its way to the
bottom of the canyon. RoaringSprings sits about five and a
half miles and 3,600 verticalfeet below the North Kaibab
Trailhead and provides water toboth the North And South Rims.
(01:23):
And it came as a shock yesterdayto learn there was any kind of
threat that deep in the canyon.
Rob Roy Williams is the sectionchief of the firefighting team.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
We flew some hell attack guys over to the Roaring
Springs pump house. They wereable to go in there and complete
some, defensible space aroundthere. They're gonna go back in
there today. They're gonna putsome structure wrap around those
cabins as well as put somesprinkler kits in there. So if
that fire does decide tothreaten that anymore, that
(01:54):
we'll be able to protect thatvalue and ensure that fire does
not impact that that pump house.
Brian (02:00):
Jim King, meanwhile, is the fire behavior analyst. Here
he is on the fire's movement inRoaring Springs Canyon.
Krocky (02:06):
The good news is the fire behavior around the
remaining values up here on therim and then down into the
Roaring Springs Canyon where thewhere the infrastructure is for
the water system on both rims.All day yesterday yesterday and
and then then all all lastnight, there was no fire
movement in that drainagefurther securing those values at
(02:28):
risk. So that's very good newson the south side of our fire.
Brian (02:33):
So some good news inside the canyon for the time being.
The fire is growing though onthe north side, and teams were
sent to the area around theNorth Rim entrance station today
to secure structures there muchlike they did at Roaring
Springs.
Krocky (02:46):
Late in the day yesterday, had a south wind come
across the fire, which pushedthe fire to the north, and it
grew about one mile along alongthe Arizona Scenic Trail. That
fire behavior threw spot firesout close to one half of a mile
in front of itself. That firestayed active most of the night
(03:10):
last night. As of 04:30 thismorning, it was still burning
actively. So the key about thispart of the fire is it's in very
heavy fuels, what we call mixedconifer fuels.
So picture large trees and thenon the ground, dead logs that
hold heat and are very dry. Andso even with a little bit of
(03:31):
rain or high RHs, those fuelsare still available to burn.
Brian (03:36):
So still a long way to go. It was also mentioned that
the weather is expected to dryout again over the weekend and
that the fire is expected tostart growing again when it
does. Alright. Well, we metKrocke Meshkin in episode 71 of
the podcast, and today he's backto talk about his feelings
around the loss of Grand CanyonLodge and how he and others who
(03:57):
live at the canyon have beenaffected by the devastation.
Krocke lives off the land inValley about twenty minutes
south of the South Rim.
He was a tour guide for years,and in recent years, had begun
to fill the need for anothershuttle service, this one
specializing in rim to rim. He'dbuilt it into a strong enough
business that he was gonna payoff his vehicle and be totally
(04:17):
profitable for the first timethis year. And now this, with
access to the North Rim now cutoff for at least the rest of
2025, Krocke, like so manyothers, is being forced to
pivot. Life, it's been provenwith this situation, can come at
you fast. It was a week ago, aweek ago today, that this fire
(04:40):
was still essentially acontrolled burn on the North
Rim.
I'm sure from your vantage pointin the South Rim, you could see
the smoke, but but we weren'tworried about anything becoming
anything like what has happenedsince then. Know? A week ago,
people were still staying at theNorth Rim, staying at the Grand
Canyon Lodge, doing their rim torims. The trails were open. And
now a week later, everything haschanged.
(05:04):
And I'm just curious what thiswhole week has been like
Speaker 5 (05:09):
for you. We've all been incredibly shook. This did
happen so fast. You know? That'sinsane to think about.
A week ago, people were stillover there. And all that sort of
prompts these emotions of grief,shock, anger, everything coming
(05:29):
out. And, yeah, I'm stillwrapping my head around all
this. It it's been a very wildweek.
Brian (05:37):
What was it like, and what were you hearing as the
evacuation orders started tocome in? Because you've been a a
member of the the Grand Canyoncommunity for a long time now.
I'm sure you have friends on theNorth Side. What what was
happening? What were you hearingas as the evacuations began?
Speaker 5 (05:54):
The evacuations began on July 11. That's that's when I
got the first, you know, masstext. They're they're asking
visitors to leave. And suddenly,I'm thinking, okay. You've got
the two fires.
So the White Sage Fire is theone closer to Jacob Lake, and
that's possibly gonna block theexit point. You know, that's
(06:15):
that's initially what I'mthinking. I'm thinking, okay.
There's this other fire on theNorth Rim, but it's not that
bad. There's not cause forconcern.
There's this bigger one by JacobLake that is prompting the
evacuation of the visitors, andI'm thinking, well, you know,
I'm probably gonna have the weekoff. I probably won't do much
(06:35):
driving this week, and, youknow, I was ready to just accept
that and have a week off, anddidn't think it was a big deal
at that point.
Brian (06:45):
Were you hearing anything from the people that you knew on
the North Rim as they you know,you said the visitors got
evacuated first. I think it waslater the same day where you got
the go notice that it's time foreveryone to to get out, and that
is the first indication that wehad that the Dragon Bravo fire,
the one that affected and isaffecting to this day the North
Rim, and now down into thecanyon, that's the first
(07:07):
indication we got that somethingwas really, really wrong.
Speaker 5 (07:11):
Yeah. They started to evacuate all the staff, and I I
wrote down a timeline becauseeven my head is, like, tripping
out over all this stuff. What Iscanned back through my phone,
the visitors were one day, andthen that night, it was kind of
like, okay, this is interesting.We then, the next day, I
(07:32):
remember getting set. You know,they say set.
You're in set position. Youknow, prep prepare yourself
because you might need toevacuate. And I should be clear.
I'm not on the North Side atthis point. I'm on the South
Side while I'm getting all thesetexts.
So this would have been July,yeah, July 12. The staff is
(07:56):
asked to evacuate very promptly.It goes from set, and then I
feel like it was maybe an houror a couple hours later, it was
go. A go order, evacuate now. Iwas waiting because I thought I
might possibly get calls.
On the day that the public, thevisitors were asked to evacuate,
(08:18):
I did get a call that day,somebody needing a ride. It was
a couple of hikers on the SouthRim. They were gonna rent a car,
and so I was driving them toFlagstaff on that day so they
could go to the airport and andget a rental car. And I was
just, you know, I thought maybepeople are gonna be calling me,
(08:39):
maybe I'm gonna rush over thereand help, and it also was a
balance of maybe I'm just gonnabe in the way. You know, maybe
they're evacuating these people,they're trying to get all the
vehicles out, everything.
You know, I wasn't gonna go overthere without somebody asking me
for help, or asking me to goover there at that point.
Brian (08:58):
So what was it like when, you know, you wake up Sunday
morning, I assume if you'd evengotten sleep, and and, you know,
now we're talking about we'velost the Grand Canyon Lodge.
And, you know, the night before,as we all went to sleep, I think
that, at least for me, you couldstart to see on the map that it
(09:19):
was inching closer and closer tothe lodge area. And but it still
wasn't there yet. And then weget up Sunday morning, find out
that at about 03:00 in themorning, the the Grand Canyon
Lodge was was lost. What wasyour reaction?
Speaker 5 (09:34):
Initially, it was just shock. You know? It was
disbelief. And I I do wanna saygetting in all this stuff, you
know, so much respect to thecrews that were fighting this
fire that had their lives on theline. So much respect to these
people.
(09:55):
I'll back it up a little bit. II wanna get into the lodge with
you. I wanna talk about that daybefore. So July 12, you know,
everyone's evacuating. I'm I'mseeing from friends.
I have a friend who left for theBryce Marathon. He he had
actually left, and he put a postonline. He said, it's not
(10:17):
looking good for the North Rim.And that really made me wonder.
This is one of my friends.
He's he's just an incredibleGrand Canyon hiker. He's done
over 50 summits in the canyon,and he he says, it's not looking
good for the North Rim. Comingfrom this guy, I was like, what
is he talking about? You know,what is that? Like, on what
level does that mean?
(10:39):
July 12, I had gone to somefriends had a sort of a delayed
fourth of July party for thecommunity. For anyone who was
out of town for fourth of July,they all got together. So that
was Saturday night, Julytwelfth. I'm at a party. I'm
excited.
You know, I'm telling peopleabout this lifestyle that I have
now. Essentially, I had createdmy shuttling company in in 2023,
(11:03):
but I held on to other employerswhile that took off. It wasn't
until late last year that Idecided to go all in with the
shuttling company. And I wasbasically explaining to them. I
said, I think I have a job thatI don't I don't have to con have
concern about AI taking my jobor anythings like this.
Like, to drive that route rim torim, you know, anyone who does
(11:27):
that, TransCanion, othercompanies, you know, these are
great drivers. Those arewinding, twisting roads,
everything. I'm not gonna see aWaymo doing that route. Right?
So I'm thinking I got total jobsecurity the next five to ten
years.
I I found something special, andthat was the vibe. That was the
vibe at the party. Everybody Iknew, you know, we're chatting.
(11:48):
There was smoke everywhere. Youknow, there was smoke in the
air, but nobody there there wasno feeling on Saturday night
that the North Rim Lodge wasgonna burn down, that the North
Rim was then gonna be closed forthe remainder of 2025.
(12:10):
There was not that feeling thatnight. It was a sudden blow on
Sunday morning. And this is
Brian (12:17):
a bunch of Grand Canyon people. You know? You guys are
in the know. You'recommunicating with each other.
There was no indication onSaturday night other than the
fact that, you know, you maybeyou're starting to see the fire
inch toward the the lodge, butit was even hard to fathom then
as it got closer that, well,surely it's gonna be protected,
and surely this can't happen.
That's the vibe that that youall had at that party.
Speaker 5 (12:38):
Yeah. And and just knowing the topography, you
know, it's on a peninsula. It'sright out there on a peninsula
that I think for one thing,shows you how big the fire had
now built up to be, and theconditions insanely dry,
insanely hot. We're in a heatwave this week. And the the
combination, you know, for thatto continue down, you know, this
(13:02):
peninsula that has a hugeparking lot, that has places
that could be set up to fightit, was just yeah.
It it it was unbelievable, andthe photos came out. So there
was there was a call for thelocals and residents. We were on
a group call getting informationdirect from the park service on
Sunday morning. We got So
Brian (13:23):
what happened pool Sunday morning? Let me just back up
just for a second, because yougo to this party. I assume you
leave this party at some point.You probably go back and go to
sleep, and it when you woke upthe next morning that you found
out what happened?
Speaker 5 (13:39):
Yeah. And not even think the And
Brian (13:42):
call no whistling the night before, and then you wake
up in the morning, and the lodgeis gone. What's your reaction?
Speaker 5 (13:49):
Completely gone. Complete disbelief. The photos
coming out, that was I mean,that was the evidence. That was
like, okay. This thing hasburned.
And those photos just startedpassing around. Like, I saw
those fly from page to page toperson to person so quick.
(14:09):
Everybody was talking about it.So that's Sunday morning. We're
still kind of digesting it.
You know? It's like the grief.It's like the loss of a loved
one. You lose that, and you'rein this state of shock suddenly
where where, like, it's like youthink, like, you blink your
eyes. You're like, no.
No. No. That that didn't happen.It's still there. You know?
(14:29):
We're still gonna go over there.That you know? And it it takes
days to process that. That waswhen I started getting calls
from people that don't even liveat Grand Canyon, was the
thirteenth. Know, thatafternoon,
Brian (14:41):
it seemed to blow up to now national news. When did that
mindset start to I don't know.When did it start to shift for
you? Because, you know, not onlyare you someone who is obsessed
with the Grand Canyon, and hasbeen part of community for so
long, you've got yourlivelihood, you know, tied
(15:02):
directly to the Grand Canyon,and tied directly to folks'
ability to access the North Rim,and to be able to do rim to rim.
That's that is your clientele.
That's your livelihood. So howlong did it take it for you to
your mindset mindset to justshift, and be like, wow. Wait a
second. This isn't just atragedy that is affecting Grand
(15:25):
Canyon Lodge and everything onthe North Rim and all the people
who live there, but now mylivelihood is affected too.
Speaker 5 (15:32):
Yeah. It it, you know, it wasn't the initial
thing. I I wanna be clear aboutthat. You know, it wasn't like
my business, my money, that kindof stuff. You know?
It was it was so much thepeople, the friends that lost
everything, the friends on theNorth Rim that had to evacuate
and leave stuff behind, thinkingabout the ecosystem, the the
(15:52):
North Kaibab Trail, you know,and suddenly realizing it was
beyond that. We we thought thelodge was one thing, and then
we're realizing this is actuallyhitting the North Kaibab
Trailhead, and that sort ofstarted to come in by the end of
the thirteenth, the fourteenththat I'm realizing rim to rim is
(16:13):
never gonna be the same. I'mpotentially not gonna be able to
operate. And in order to run abusiness, I should clarify too,
for people who don't know me,I'm probably one of the last
small business owners to operateon the North Rim Of The Grand
Canyon. You have the lodge, andall the structures are owned by
the Park Service, but you havepeople, you know, companies come
(16:36):
in and they operate the lodge.
They operate the general store.For me, I had gotten my
authorizations through theNational Park Service to operate
as a small business, and youhave to pay all kinds of fees to
do that. My insurance is over$500 a month to do those drives.
(16:57):
The Park Service wants me to beinsured up to $1,500,000 in case
I were to cause some damage tothe Grand Canyon. You know, in
case I were to back into theNorth Rim sign and destroy it,
I'm paying out these insanefees.
That's the stuff that startedto, you know, hit me eventually.
It was like, oh my god. I'm notgonna be making any money, and
(17:19):
I'm gonna have to call a shot,basically. I could still drive
in Arizona. I have all mypermitting with the state.
However, if I wanna stayofficial with the park service,
I have to keep paying all ofthis overhead to the park
service, and it's it's possiblygonna be over a year, you know,
(17:40):
before I'm doing that kind ofbusiness again.
Brian (17:44):
So, what did you decide to do? Have you made any
decisions about your future?
Speaker 5 (17:49):
I think there's options. You know, I I I have to
hold on to this belief thatthere's options. For me, the
Grand Canyon changed my life.When I arrived to Grand Canyon,
I had three maxed out creditcards. I had been making $8 an
hour, and I was driving a vanthat cost me $800 when I showed
(18:11):
up to Grand Canyon ten yearsago.
My life was really bad. Youknow, I was really struggling to
survive, and I got this job atGrand Canyon that essentially
pulled me out of debt, pulled meout of, you know, poverty. I
was, you know, instead of havingthis budget of, like, $20.30
bucks a week for food, suddenly,I felt like I was living like a
(18:33):
king. I was working at Pink JeepTours. Geology, and I was
learning about biology and floraand fauna, and I was making
really good money.
And the Grand Canyon, like, I Ineed to put that out there. The
Grand Canyon saved my life. Itchanged my life. I essentially
(18:56):
had to start over, you know, atthe time I moved here, and
things went so well. And it justkept, you know, getting better
and better throughout the years.
I had a plan to start thisbusiness, and the business was
(19:16):
my way of creating my ownschedule. When you work for the
other companies around GrandCanyon, you're asked to work all
the holidays. You're giving awayyour summer. You are
essentially, you know, helpingpeople to have a great vacation,
and you're not getting to dothat yourself. And this year
(19:37):
looked like a year that I wasgonna be able to improve my
quality of life.
I took a vacation for fourth ofJuly. You know, my last time to
the North Rim was July 1. I hadworked with a group on July 1,
and this was the first year inten years that I took a vacation
(19:59):
on fourth of July weekend, whichironically is when that
lightning strike happened.
Brian (20:05):
So what so have you made a decision on what's next for
you?
Speaker 5 (20:08):
Sorry. I'm getting yeah. I I I
Brian (20:11):
It's a lot, Krocke. This is a lot to keep straight It's
in your a lot to talk about,man. It's emotional. It's might
be infuriating in some regards,but
Speaker 5 (20:21):
Yeah. You know, you've
Brian (20:22):
got you've got to move on. So what's next?
Speaker 5 (20:24):
And for the listeners at home, my my laughter is not
like, I I I have to like findsome humor in all.
Brian (20:30):
It tells Yes. Levity above all, Crockett. It's just
through a lot of a lot of darktimes
Speaker 5 (20:35):
in life.
Brian (20:36):
Don't you worry about that.
Speaker 5 (20:37):
Yeah. I have to find some humor in this. There's
nothing there's nothing definedfor my future. I have options,
and I think what it looks likeis I'm gonna shift into
documentary filmmaking. I hadhiked rim to rim with a retired
NASA engineer who lost hisvision due to glaucoma.
(20:57):
We did rim to rim with him lastyear. And I had permits that I
got permits through the NationalPark Service to film that whole
thing because he wanted hisstory told. He wants to inspire
others who have a family memberor are losing their vision and
show them that even once you'vegone blind, can still do cool
things like rim to rim. So heactually yeah. Over it was over
(21:23):
a week ago.
It was before fourth fourth ofJuly weekend. He had invited me.
He's he's gonna go for a worldrecord, the largest group of
blind people to summit MountKilimanjaro, and so they invited
me on that to to document theirjourney. And there's there's 11
of them, so they do have a planto kinda pull together money and
(21:44):
and find a sponsor for this doc.And so, I haven't quite got the
green light on it, but it itlooks very possible that, you
know, that was just gonna be atrip, and I have clients booked
all the way September, October,November this year.
Many of those clients I've beenon the phone with, I've been
texting with, I've been callingthem, you know. Of course, some
(22:07):
of these people have never evenseen the Grand Canyon. They were
planning rim to rim this year,and that's not gonna happen. My
plan was I was gonna go doKilimanjaro, come back, and
finish out my business for theyear before diving into the
dock. So, you know, as astroubling as everything is and
and also just allowing myselfthat space of of allowing time
(22:32):
to process, allowing time tothink about it, It's it's likely
that I will dissolve theshuttling portion of the company
and then dive into thedocumentary, put the full focus
on these two docs.
Brian (22:47):
You say dissolving the company with an eye toward
coming back when things change,or or what?
Speaker 5 (22:54):
Well, the funny thing is, I purchased
rimtorimshuttle.com. I was soconfident in the company, I
said, you know, I I ought toclaim that. Nobody's going by
just rim to rim shuttle. And andmind you, I I set out to do
tours. Originally, I had thisCUA, the the commercial use
(23:14):
authorization to do road basedtours and and trail hiking, and
I just struggled to advertisethat.
And so this year, I only got theauthor authorization to shuttle
people. I do not have theability to give people tours
this year. And now this youknow, if I had that
authorization, they when youapply for these things with the
(23:36):
park service, that cutoffhappens at the March. And so
that's it. I cannot give peopletours.
With with ten years of knowledgeworking as a Grand Canyon
expert, I could get a job withanother company, but I'm not
gonna be able to do that throughmy company. So, yeah, it looks
(23:56):
like it would make the mostsense to just stop operating,
and it's it's one of thesethings. They're they're saying
close for the rest of the year.I think I have to on the side of
caution. We have to considerit's it's not just rebuilding.
It's gonna be cleanup. They'repossibly not gonna let any
(24:19):
citizens in there because ofsome of the toxic materials that
could have been spread aboutfrom the burning of some of
these structures. Wastewatertreatment plant, we know for
sure was one of the structuresdamaged. It's possible they're
not gonna let citizens in untilall that cleanup has occurred.
Then I know there's been a lotof talk too.
(24:40):
I mean, everyone's throwing outgreat ideas of, like, a
temporary lodge, or maybe theycan just allow access to the
trailhead before the lodge a newlodge is completed. And so,
yeah, I I think it it would justI would just be wasting money.
(25:00):
You know, I'd be paying outmoney that it would it you know,
it'd be better to let this onego, and whenever things are back
up, you know, see about comingback as, you know, a new new
design, a redesign myself.
Brian (25:20):
Isn't it something that we're talking about, you know,
all these future plans, and notjust for you, but what the
future might look like for theNorth Rim that we're talking
about this while this fire isstill we found out this morning,
it's 0% containment, ninetythree Zero.
Speaker 5 (25:36):
Growing still
Brian (25:37):
still penetrating deeper into the canyon where it becomes
more and more difficult toactually fight the fire. It it
seems like that part of this isis being, you know, not really
reported. It seems like thenational media, even the media
here in Phoenix, are justfocused on the lodge still a few
days later. They're focused onthe North Rim. They'll say the
(25:59):
fire burning on the North Rim,and you just kinda wanna scream
and say, guys, this is in thecanyon.
And we can tell by looking atthe maps that it has ravaged the
upper portion of North Of TheNorth Kaibab Trail, all the way
from the trailhead down to SupaiTunnel, best we can tell. And
(26:20):
there are hell attack teams nowwho are protecting the area
around the pump house, which, ofcourse, of course, is just North
Of Of Manzanita, betweenManzanita and Roaring Springs.
And that is staggering to eventhink about, that that fire is,
you know, working its way down,not necessarily down the the
trail parts itself. But, youknow, if if you if you don't
(26:45):
know, the lodge is basicallyright above Roaring Springs and
Roaring Springs Canyon. So thefire that that was in the lodge
area is is working its way downthe canyon right there.
That's its fastest route to getto the bottom. But the fact that
we're even having this thisconversation is is pretty
stunning, and and the fact we'retalking about people changing
their livelihoods, and we're,you know, coming up with
(27:06):
fundraisers and t shirts, andand this fire is still burning.
How crazy is that to you?
Speaker 5 (27:12):
Yeah. Yeah. 0%. It's burning, it's growing. I would
love to see more of thatcovered.
I had been asked to do aninterview for ABC fifteen
yesterday, and that aired lastnight, and I probably got, out
of what they interviewed me, Imaybe got 10 words in, made the
cut. You know? So that was coolthat they they gave exposure,
(27:38):
and they interviewed some otherpeople around the park and
people at Jacob Lake. All theexposure is very welcomed right
now because, yeah, it's it's notjust me. I I wanna be clear.
You know? It's not just about meand my company and all that
stuff. There's so many peoplewith loss. So to talk more
about, yeah, the currentsituation. This fire is growing.
(28:00):
It's going into the canyon.Every night, the the past couple
nights at least, I've been upthere. If you stay after the sun
sets, the flames come into view.You're watching the smoke as the
sun is setting. As the sky getsdarker and darker, boom, the
orange flames come into view.
And that was absolutelydevastating the other night. I
(28:22):
don't I don't think I could'vedone this interview a couple
days ago without having thattime to kinda swallow that. You
can see it right back behindBuddha Temple. This would be
near Whidfors Point, if anyone'sdone the Whidfors Trail on the
North Rim. That's gonna be allfried.
This is you you mentioned itflowing to, like, Roaring
(28:43):
Springs and that kind of stuff.That one's gonna be the Transept
Canyon is you know, when youstep out of the parking lot and
there's that little sign thatsays Transept Canyon. I'm
talking about the parking lot onthe North Side. A lot of I see
this all the time. Visitors stepout, and they think they're
seeing the Grand Canyon.
But there's a little wooden signthere that says Transept Canyon,
and then it says Grand CanyonView with an arrow. It's trying
(29:06):
to tell people, hey, this isjust a side canyon. But, yeah,
that one, all that stuffdumping, you know, the ash and
debris dumping into the canyonas well. It It's growing. Storms
started arriving, which that'san I wanna get into that in more
detail.
(29:26):
But, now we have the situationof rain that is possibly gonna
wash some of the materials ofthese structures into the
canyon.
Brian (29:34):
Well, you posted something on Facebook this
morning, and I encourageeveryone to follow Crocky. You
mentioned the rain, and you hada pretty poignant moment last
night, it looked like to me,where a lot of introspection,
and you went for a a run alongthe rim trail as these
thunderstorms rolled in, and wegot heavy rain. I think we're
(29:54):
all a little disappointed to tosee the briefing this morning
and still see the 0%containment. So perhaps the
thunderstorms had some effect onthe fire, but not nearly to the
the extent that we were hopingfor.
Speaker 5 (30:08):
Correct. Yeah. Last night was wild. I can walk you
through that one. Essentially, II wasn't gonna go back up.
I felt like I needed a breakfrom it, and that's sort of been
the psychology of, like, do Iwatch this? Do I just go to
Flagstaff and and, you know,ignore this? You know, what do I
(30:31):
do with these days? And I sortof had a moment where I was
like, I think I need to justbear witness to all this. I
think I need to go visit with myfriends.
North Rim employees have nowbeen brought over to South Rim,
some of them. And, you know, I Ispent the past few days visiting
with other employees, other tourguides, essentially, tour guides
(30:55):
on the South Rim that theyessentially they're not affected
as their job, but you canimagine what it would be like to
have to go out and give a tourto excited visitors who've just
shown up, and and you're deadinside. You know? You are so
depressed, and you're having toput on a show and and give a
tour to these folks. I witnessedthat yesterday.
(31:17):
One of the the Park ServiceInterp rangers was giving a
geology talk while the fires arehappening right behind him, and
and, you know, he he definitelyacknowledged it, but you could
feel it in his voice of, like,you imagine everyone having to
continue to work on the SouthRim as they are hearing the
stories of their friends,possible family members, people
(31:40):
who they don't know what's next.They don't know how long it's
gonna be till they can go backto that culture and that
lifestyle of living on the NorthRim.
Brian (31:49):
I imagine that the emotions, you know, we've talked
about it. I've just kinda runthe gamut for you across the
entire spectrum. I'm surethere's sadness. I'm sure
there's some anger. You have tohave some optimism as you look
forward.
So many things going throughyour mind. What is the
overriding emotion for you rightnow?
Speaker 5 (32:13):
I think the overriding emotion for me is
empathy. I have to have empathyfor for people, for the
ecosystem, you know, the forest,the the biology, the animals, I
have to have empathy. I I'veI've kind of gone through, you
(32:33):
know, the classic stages ofgrief, the the disbelief, the
anger, the rage, you know, allthat stuff. I I've definitely
gone through that, and a lot ofmy friends, you know, we've
we've had conversations where,you know, these converse we're
like, this is just us talking.You know?
We're not we need to get allthis stuff out. This is not
stuff we necessarily would wannaput on record, you know, but
(32:56):
just to talk some of that angerand and grief out. I've been
going through all that stuff,especially with friends, and and
now I think it's all aboutempathy. I had gone up to do the
interview with the newsyesterday. I decided to stay up
there, and I decided to do oneof my favorite runs on the top
(33:19):
of the canyon is running alongthe trail of time.
You park at Yavapai GeologyMuseum, and you can run along
all the rock layers without themadness of dropping into the
canyon. You can have yourselfjust like a nice little five k
run. And so I decided to do thateven though the storms were
coming in, and I had a veryspiritual moment. As the rain
(33:43):
got stronger, I was now inbetween Yavapai Geology Museum
and the Grand Canyon Villagearea, the rain gets heavier, and
hail starts falling. Thunder isechoing throughout the canyon.
Giant storm clouds are rightoverhead. The smoke is in the
distance on the North Rim. As Iget to about Verkamp's,
(34:06):
lightning is now flashing. Morehail, more rain, and I decide
I'd better go stand on thatporch. I I knew I was gonna get
wet, so I didn't wear a shirt,so I couldn't go inside
anywhere, and I I kinda screwedmyself over in that way.
But I I just wanted to be in it.I just wanted to, you know, feel
(34:26):
the rain. I just I needed Ineeded an emotional moment
because I was getting so tenseand so angry about everything. I
needed this sort of release andthis emotional moment. I end up
standing on the porch atVercamps.
So Vercamps is that little, youknow, gift shop run by the GCC
(34:47):
that's close to El Tamar Hotel,and that thing is older. I I
believe that's over a 100 yearsold. That's older than the North
Rim Lodge was, and it was fun tostand on, you know, a piece of
history, watch the smoke on theNorth Rim, the rains coming
down. There was a very calmingfeeling. There were tourists
(35:11):
around that were they they theywere just reading books.
You know? They I don't know ifthey had hiked the trail of
time. They were gonna wait outthe storm and hike back, but,
yeah, they seemed so relaxed,and and to just be around that
kind of energy, even for amoment, felt good. A GCC
(35:32):
employee stepped outside of hercamps, and he was poking at or
peeking at the fire, you know,looking over to the smoke. And
just then, it it seemed it washitting the Dragon Bravo Fire
area, the Whitforce Point, andthat plateau and the Peninsula.
(35:53):
And I looked on my radar, andand sure enough, it was. You
know, we we've seen that too,all the posts on on your
Facebook page and everything,that the rain arrived, a nice
dousing of rain hit, The smokewas turning more of a white
color, and flames were burstingout, you know, big orange flames
that we're looking with thenaked eye at this point over 10
(36:15):
miles away. Giant flames werebursting out as that rain hit,
and then the flames kinda dyingout. Just incredibly symbolic. I
then, as the rain calms, I startrunning back, and those photos
you were talking about, yeah,the the post I did, that was on
(36:36):
the the run back becausesuddenly, it was like the
limestone was wet.
The rain is on the other side.There was such a calming feeling
of hope. The electris literalelectricity in the air.
Lightning lightning was I Iforget what you call that, but
it was like cloud to cloudlightning was happening. I
(36:57):
didn't feel at risk, but it itwas a little foolish, I'll
admit.
Running in this storm out thereon the edge of the canyon was
was was foolish, but I
Brian (37:06):
You were I probably thinking, what else could go
wrong?
Speaker 5 (37:07):
Right? Yes. This was my my, yeah, climax moment in
the film where the the characteris nothing to lose. And and
yeah. So I just took it all in,and and by the time I got to
it's called Grandeur Point.
It's it's really close toYavapai Geology Museum. It's the
one point that sticks out there.And all these tourists had kinda
(37:32):
shown up with their tour guide.They're in ponchos. I'm here
shirtless, covered in water, andwe all kinda watched the sunset
there, and the rainbow came out,and it just felt magical.
Brian (37:47):
And those pictures that you took, those images you
captured, you could feel thatmagic, Krocke, because you man,
you you posted them in black andwhite, and that may seem
counterintuitive with all thecolor in the Grand Canyon, but
they were serene and justabsolutely gorgeous. Some of the
some of the best images I Ithink I've ever seen, and I'm
(38:09):
pretty critical of those kind ofthings. I think that that was
something special, and I hopeeveryone can can go check that
out. You mentioned empathy. Youalso mentioned anger.
You just said, you know, you'reangry about everything. How do
you make those two emotions worktogether? That can be tough.
(38:31):
It's a tough balance.
Speaker 5 (38:33):
I've seen great people in my lifetime figure
that out, and anyone who can dothat is somebody I I really
admire to have that passion, tohave that drive, yet also lead
with the empathy. And that's Ithink this is my moment of
(38:54):
realizing how I wanna come outof this thing. I felt my life
was amazing. I felt my life wasgetting really good, and it was
a sudden shock of, like, oh mygod. I'm screwed.
How am I gonna make a living? Ithought I was moving into a
world, you know, where a lot ofpossibilities were coming my
(39:17):
way. I don't have kids. I don'thave a family, but, you know, it
was looking more clear that evensomething like that could be a
possibility as well as my lifewas going, and definitely days
of spiral of thinking, well, Idon't know what's gonna happen
now. And so, if I were to letmyself spiral, and let myself
(39:41):
get angry and point fingers,it's not gonna fix this.
It's not gonna restore thoseforests. It's not gonna restore
the damage to the North KaibabTrail. It's not gonna bring back
the history of that lodge, theitems in the lodge. Think of the
kachinas. There were kachinacostumes in there.
There were Navajo rugs in theNorth they're called the Grand
(40:04):
Canyon Lodge. It's veryconfusing for people that don't
live here, I should point out.It's called the Grand Canyon
Lodge, but it's on the NorthSide, so some of us call it the
North Room Lodge. We so, yeah,we have to have empathy for for
all that kind of stuff, youknow, is essentially my lesson
from yesterday. This was thegift that was given to me in
(40:26):
that storm.
The rain didn't put everythingout, right? We got news that the
fire is growing, yet I was ableto have this spiritual moment
sort of bringing me back to theground. You know, there's that
feeling when you get angry, youget tense. There's a feeling,
like, of numbness, and I felt somuch last night as I was
(40:48):
essentially just crouched on thelimestone, the wet limestone of
the South Rim, an ancientseafloor, 280,000,000 years old,
that feels like it comes back tolife whenever it's covered in
water. I'm crouched on therehaving my moment of just, you
(41:09):
know, I I definitely agree withfolks who want answers, and
that's not for me to give.
Right? This is gonna come downto investigations and whatnot.
But, yeah, I I think this shouldbe covered more. I think people
should ask questions, and Ithink the root of these
questions is how do we make abetter world? Because I always
(41:33):
imagined I'd be able to show mykids, my grandkids, those trails
and those forests, thosebeautiful aspen, fir, ponderosa
pine forest that will now belost and will take over a
hundred years, if not twohundred years, to return to the
state that we saw him in a weekago.
Brian (41:53):
Krocke, thanks for doing this, man. We're we're rooting
for you. We're rooting foreveryone up there. There's no
doubt it's hard, and there's somany of us in the hiking
community who who feel the loss.But, you know, I think it's
important as well to acknowledgethat we don't fear feel it
nearly as deeply as those wholived there and are part, truly
(42:14):
part of the day to day GrandCanyon family.
So thank you for coming on andsharing. It's greatly
appreciated, and it helps us,you know, really put the the
human side to this story. So onbehalf of everyone in our
community, thank you.
Speaker 5 (42:30):
I appreciate that, Brian.
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