May 14, 2025 • 35 mins
Alice Murphy joins the podcast to read from her hot new release, 'A Showgirl’s Rules for Falling in Love.' We talk about the book's dual timeline narrative intertwining a historical romance with a contemporary framework, the importance of the happily ever after, and body image over time.
00:00 Introduction to the Historical Romance Sampler Podcast
03:47 Reading from A Showgirl's Rules for Falling In Love
15:56 Interview with Alice Murphy: Writing Process and Inspirations
21:24 Discussion on Historical Accuracy and Representation
30:29 Love It or Leave It: Romance Tropes
34:00 Conclusion and Where to Find Alice Murphy's Book
Find out more about Alice Murphy: https://alicemurphybooks.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Welcome to the historicalromance sampler podcast.
I'm your host, Katherine Grant, andeach week I introduce you to another
amazing historical romance author.
My guest reads a little sampleof their work, and then we move
into a free ranging interview.
If you like these episodes, don'tforget to subscribe to the historical
(00:24):
romance sampler, wherever youlisten to podcasts and follow us
on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube.
Now let's get into this week's episode.
I am super excited to bejoined today by Alice Murphy.
Alice Murphy is the pen name ofa writer from the deep South.
A university lecturer, a disability rightsadvocate, and a lover of classic Hollywood
(00:48):
movies and cheese steaks, she also writescontemporary romance novels, television,
and films under her given name.
Alice, I'm so excited tohave you here with us today.
Thank you so much for having me.
I am such a huge fan of the podcast.
I have found so many books from it, soI am absolutely delighted to be here.
Oh, I'm so glad to hear that.
(01:09):
So you're reading for us a historicalromance that is out this week.
A Showgirl's Rules for Falling In Love.
So what should we know about thebook and also about the little
scene that you're gonna read for us?
Yeah, so a showgirls rules forfalling in Love is actually,
it's a dual timeline romance.
So it's predominantly historical,but it has this really delicious
(01:29):
contemporary romance sort of framing it.
So in the modern day we have a historianwho is asked by a man to investigate
what he thinks is kind of a torrid loveaffair that one of his ancestors has.
He's like, you know, go back, doall the research and tell me if my
great, great grandfather and thisshowgirl were really in love.
(01:52):
And so she does that.
She digs through the historical recordsand she is actually the one who is
writing the historical romance portion.
And that is, a showgirl who, you know,she's kind of this plus size, you
know kind of starlet of the vaudevillescene slowly finds that she's getting
less and less work, and so is hervery diverse group of theater makers.
(02:18):
Because of conservative newspaperinterests that are sort of attacking them
as being, outside of the norm and not safefor " wholesome American eyes," you know?
And so what she decides to do is shedecides to seduce this theater Impresario
who is opening this new big pleasurepalace on 34th Street, and she's like,
well, I'm gonna seduce him and I'mgonna make him, do everything I want.
(02:41):
Which includes hiring me andall of my friends to Star in
his Vaudeville Spectacular.
But of course, she thinksthis is gonna be kind of a cut
and dry business transaction.
I'll give you what you want,which is me, and you'll gimme
what I want, which is my career.
And of course, they sort of unraveleach other and, and fall in love.
We know from the very beginning that thesetwo characters don't end up together.
(03:04):
They don't really havea happily ever after.
But Phoebe, our historian in thepresent day, she has the pen and
so she gets to decide how theirlove story ends, for everyone who's
gonna read this story in the future.
And so this book is like a sort offearless defense of the happily ever after
and writing our own happily ever afters.
And this scene I'm gonna read is whereThomas and Evelyn, our two historical
(03:28):
figures meet for the very first timeafter he has just watched her on stage
and she's blown him a kiss in the audience
'cause she knows that he'slike rich, handsome man.
And she's gonna try and hook him.
So this is their first interactionwhere he comes to her dressing room
to meet her for the first time.
Awesome.
That's so exciting.
The man from the operabox was Thomas Gallier.
(03:50):
She was certain of it.
Sure, there might've been about 50 yardsand a hell of a lot of stage light between
them, but it was her job to know whereher next meal could come from and if
what she read in the papers was true,
Thomas Gallier lookedlike a 12 course dinner.
Blowing kisses was oneof her signature moves.
She didn't originate the practice,certainly, but she'd learned over
(04:10):
time that men couldn't resistbeing singled out in a crowd.
They all, without exception, had apathological belief that they were
somehow exceptional, an obsessionwith being the one and only
chosen out of an endless stream.
So it didn't surprise her when therewas a knock at her dressing room door.
In fact, she was waitingfor it, expecting it.
She would've been disappointed, maybeeven devastated if he hadn't come.
(04:34):
" Hey Evelyn," a gruff voice stagehandcalled, "You've got a visitor." For a
moment, she considered how to play this.
She'd entertained plenty of men in herdressing room before men who would go
on to buy her furs, take her for dinnerand dancing or to introduce her to
other men who could get her booking.
On those occasions, she playedit all very cool, very coy,
very refined, almost aloof.
(04:56):
But lately those meetings took upless and less space on her social
calendar, and she couldn't rememberthe last time any of them had wanted
to continue their dalliances in public.
Of all the men she'd met, none ofthem had ever been in a position to
help her quite like Thomas Gallier,
and considering the holes in her stockingsand the sprawling emptiness of her
future, she didn't have time for subtlety.
(05:18):
"A handsome gentlemancaller, I hope," she crooned.
A beat of assessment fromthe other side of the door.
"Eh, he is all right."Evelyn knew that wasn't true.
Thomas Gallier was one of those rarecreatures of the Manhattan jungle: a
genuinely good looking man of means.
Most wealthy men, Evelyn wouldcharacterize as interesting to look at.
(05:40):
They were fine enough on theirown, but it was the gleam of gold
watches and pearl cuff links thatreally made their features shine.
Thomas Gallier, on the otherhand, would've been the handsomest
ditch digger just as easilyas the handsomest millionaire.
There was a marble qualityabout his tall and built frame.
His smooth features toowere worthy of Michelangelo.
His dark hair hung slightlyroguish across his forehead like
(06:03):
a painting of a tempting devil.
"Well, can the gentleman wait? I'm afraidI having a stitch of clothing on." A lie.
With a robe thrown over her costume,
she was as close to fully dressedas she ever got backstage, but no
harm in giving him a little bit tochew on before he entered her den.
A moment later, she crossed thedoor and peeked it open, intending
to only give him a brief lookat her to heighten the suspense.
(06:26):
Unfortunately, something infinitelymore devastating occurred.
She realized he was even morehandsome up close than from afar.
A little tired maybe, but withcrystalline green eyes that could
make you believed he loved you andonly you right there on the spot.
The kind of handsome that made knees weak.
The kind of handsome that could be very,very dangerous to a woman like her.
(06:49):
"Miss Cross, it's a pleasure to meetyou." He started out innocently enough
cordial, refined, even professional.
That deep English accentof his didn't hurt matters.
Then his eyes traveled down, down, downthe nearly bare curve of her shoulder
and southward to more exotic locales.
"The pleasure's all mine, Mr..."
"Gallier," he said, his eyes snappingup and his body coiling in that
(07:11):
practiced rigidity so common inthe higher quarters of society.
"Thomas Gallier, that's right,"she said ushering him in.
"I think I read something about youin the papers." Gallier chuckled.
Nice smile though she wasn'tsure it was particularly genuine.
"I can assure you anything you'rereading there is a pack of lies."
"Oh, even the ladies columnabout you being, what was it?
(07:33):
They called you A handsome man witha constraint of passion that leaps
like flame into desire." "They wroteno such thing." "No, you're right.
I must have read that in a book somewhere.
But it describes you quite well.
You can understand my confusion." Thiswas a dance she knew well, the steps so
rehearsed she could do them in her sleep.
She would flirt a little.
He would assess her legs.
(07:54):
In the year of our Lord 1897, ifyour legs held a man's attention,
he was as good as yours.
And then they would get down to theparticulars of their exchange, her company
for his help in a polite, roundabout waythat left both of their consciences clean.
But Thomas Gallier didn't fit themold, not the way she wanted him to.
Standing near the doors of waitingto bolt, he stood out like a gray
(08:17):
rain cloud amidst her wardrobes,frilly feathers and pallette hues.
As a partner in this dance, hestumbled, never quite committing
to her tempo or letting her lead.
Strange that men were often so happyto be lured to their own destruction.
Gallier cocked his head.
"Do you think you're flatteringme?" "Is it working?" "I can
(08:38):
assure you it's not necessary.""Flattery isn't ever necessary Mr.
Gallier, but I findit's a bit like alcohol.
Good for lubricating all sortsof interactions." Not her
most subtle of approaches.
The man cleared his throat and avertedhis gaze from her while taking sudden
interest in a virginal white gown, dippedin red, hanging from her dressing screen.
"Speaking of alcohol," she said whenit became clear he'd lost his words,
(09:02):
"maybe we could celebrate your visitwith a glass of champagne." "I'm not
one to drink." "Shall we sit then?""I would prefer to stand." Damn him.
Now he was making her stumbletime for a new approach.
"Well then, do you mind if I sit?" "Byall means," he said flat, but polite.
With his attention elsewhere, he freedEvelyn to situate herself on the chaise
(09:24):
lounge stretched across the far wall.
"The long of the short of it is this,Miss cross," he began, still directing
his speech at the gown instead of her.
Did he know she'd once gotten a ticketfor indecency for performing in that gown?
Her writhing in the role of sensualSalome had popped one of the pearl
buttons down the front, exposing hersuper structure to the entirety of
(09:46):
the Atlantic City theater's audience.
Surely not, or he wouldn't have beentrusting it to keep his eyes pure.
"The Empire Theater isopening in three weeks.
I've my pick of performers,mind you, and there's plenty of
remarkable talent in the city.
No doubt about it.
You should see them comingin and out all the time.
Audition after audition,acts of the highest caliber."
"I have no doubt." His gaze flickeredto the mirror, which lined the
(10:09):
room's longest wall and gave afull view of everything he'd been
unable to see with his back turned.
His words fell out in a tumble then,rushing to end this interaction
before he could fall into her trap.
Poor thing, didn't he know the only wayto defeat temptation was to succumb?
"But after some deliberation anda considerable amount of thought,
I believe you would look just fineon the umpire's marquee, just fine.
(10:32):
As I said, I've my pick of performers,so I won't be hardballed, but if
you're interested, I could offeryou a fair wage top billing.
And why are you sitting like that?" Ina blur of a man, he turned on his heel
to give her just what she'd wanted.
His full attention.
His full lustful, frustrated, attentionfocused squarely on her body, arms
(10:52):
raised up over her head in a lazy repose.
She propped herself up on a pile of thechaise longue's pillows, so her gorgeous
breasts straining against her corsetwere the most pronounced part of her.
Everything else from her bare wriststo her stocking clad legs were
sprawled and open, ready to receive.
She didn't flinch from his gaze.
(11:13):
"Because I want you tosee me sitting like this,"
she said.
Wordlessly, his eyes traced herwaiting form, then made the return trip
back to her lips where they settled.
"Miss cross?" That was a question.
"Mr. Gallier?" That was an answer.
"I've offered you what you want,"he said, words shaking from some
unseen effort deep inside of him.
(11:35):
"You don't need to do this."
"In my experience, a man's promises aren'tworth anything until after the glow of
seduction is gone." It was the truth.
Listening to lovesick Menwas a hereditary sickness.
A sin of the mother passed down oneto which she would've never succumb.
She needed something from him.
She was going to do whatshe needed to get it.
Simple as that.
(11:55):
If those facts bothered him, so be it.
And indeed bother him they did.
He flinched.
His face turned to stone.
"Miss cross, I should like tomake one thing perfectly clear.
I do not mix business with pleasureno matter how much I may want to.
Tomorrow, I will be at the Empireon 34th Street with my associate
to see your act promptly at noon.
(12:15):
Is that understood?" She blinked. "Sure.""And one more thing." "Yes?" Maybe she
imagined it, but she was certain thelines in his face softened just barely,
just enough for her to notice, justenough to give her hope. "This isn't you.
I don't know who exactly youare, but I do hope she shows up
(12:35):
tomorrow instead of whoever thisis." With nothing else to say,
the man departed.
Evelyn listened to the sound of hisfootsteps carrying down the hall.
Then she raced to the window to watchhis figure eventually exit the theater
below and enter awaiting carriage.
It was only when that carriage disappearedinto the sea of Manhattan streets that she
finally slumped, letting her mask slip.
(12:58):
At first there was anger.
How dare he lecture her about whoshe was when they had only just
met when he didn't have any ideaof her life or her character?
Outside of a few moments on thestage, she was used to patronizing
men, but somehow Thomas Gallier'scondescension, particularly stung.
But it wasn't just his condescension,
she realized, looking up at that cursedBanting's advertisement now lit by
(13:20):
a pair of spotlights in the night,because under her anger there was pain.
He didn't want you.
That pain said he rejected youbecause he didn't want you just like
everyone else in the city lately.
She reexamined every moment of theirencounter, scanning for anything
she'd done wrong, any missteps she'dtaken, but it all kept coming back
to that little insecure thought.
(13:42):
He didn't want you.
That was until she remembered something,something she'd missed during that
first run of their little drama.
Something that made her think allhope wasn't lost for him, for them.
After all, "I do not mix businesswith pleasure," he'd said,
"no matter how I may want to."
(14:04):
ooh, that was so tantalizing.
Thank you.
I'm so glad you enjoyed.
Absolutely.
I did.
There was so much there.
I have a million questions foryou but first we're gonna take
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I am back with Alice Murphy, whojust read from A Showgirl's Rules for
Falling in Love, which is out this week.
Super exciting.
There's so much from this deliciousscene that you read and then also from
the background that you gave us onthe book that I want to talk about.
(16:13):
I love that we have a starchy hero.
Who doesn't love a starchy hero?
One of my favorites.
It's so great and I think the reasonI love it and, and the reason that
I love this pairing in particular.
She's like very cynical and very liketransactional in her relationships, which
comes out of, you know, being a girl whogrew up like in a theater world of men.
(16:34):
Like she knows what she hasto do to get what she wants.
And he's also like very controlledand very rigid and he's just a
man who's wrapped up in a littletense ball of self denial.
And the best thing about putting thosetwo people together is because he
doesn't buy kind of her bs, she hasto kind of become a more true version
(16:58):
of herself for him and because she islike relentlessly trying to get him to
kind of give in to desire that sheknows he clearly has, he becomes
a more true version of himself.
You know, he, he lets loose, he kindof gives into things he wants more.
There's a scene where they go toConey Island and she buys some
cracker Jacks and he's like, Ican't remember the last time I ate
(17:20):
something just for the pleasure of it.
And I think that's what's beautifulabout romance and the thing that I love
about romance the most is watching twopeople become more true versions of
themselves because of what the otherperson brings to the relationship.
And that's what, that's what Ithink makes Thomas and Evelyn
just such a fun couple to read andcertainly a fun couple to write.
(17:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so you developed these charactersbecause you are the author of this
book, however, your other character,you said her name was Phoebe,
she fictionally developed thesecharacters and wrote this, yeah.
This story.
So how, how was that for you in termsof your writing process and then
(18:09):
in terms of, you know, I'm assumingPhoebe is not a complete self insert
of you, so, so differentiating howPhoebe related to the characters versus
how you relate to the characters.
Yeah, so that's one of the thingsthat I love the most about the frame
story is, you know, Phoebe startsto fall in love with Armitage, who's
the guy who was hired her to do thisresearch and he doesn't anticipate
(18:35):
she's gonna write a book about it.
And so the kind of knockout, drag outfight they have at the end is he's
like, this is my family's legacy.
Like I'm a public figure.
You can't just likewrite a book about this.
And she's like, well, it's not fair.
If I don't publish this, thenthey're gonna be lost forever.
And I don't want that for them.
And I care about these figures from thepast that we've all kind of erased and
(18:56):
forgotten not just Thomas and Evelyn, but
evelyn's diverse group of theater friends.
And so when I was writing Phoebewriting this history, it was all
about teasing out the parallels.
So, the things that she might'vewanted from Armitage that she didn't
get, she gives to Evelyn via Thomas.
(19:19):
And the version of her that shewishes she was, because she's not as
confident as Evelyn, she doesn't saywhat she wants as much as Evelyn.
She kind of gets to live out herfantasies of being that person
through fictionalizing this history.
And then of course there's theHappily Ever After Element, which she
ultimately does give to Thomas andEvelyn in, I would say spectacular form.
(19:42):
It's like if you love that like kindof big last scene of Moulin Rouge,
like where all everything hits the fanI think you're gonna like the ending.
So it, it was, for me, it was all about,because I don't actually really see much
of myself in either of these characters.
So it was really about, I thinkPhoebe is the core because Phoebe then
(20:03):
projects everything about herself,her relationship, onto Thomas and
Evelyn while still incorporatingthese like, quote unquote historical
facts about their relationship.
Did you write Evelyn and Thomas's storyand then Phoebe and Armitage's story?
So this is actually one ofthose fun editing things.
So I had an amazing editor named ErinMcClary who, when I brought the book
(20:26):
to Union Square and they decided theywanted to buy it there was actually
only one chapter of Armitage andPhoebe, and it happens like right at
the end, and it was like 30 pages long.
It was sort of like, you know,like when you read a Fanfic and
it's like five times she said no.
And one time she said yes.
Right?
And it's like these little, likemicro scenes of a relationship.
(20:48):
That's sort of what it was.
So Phoebe narrated throughout the wholething, but then she only got one chapter
and Erin McClary was like, I don't thinkthat's the strongest choice for this book.
I think you need to have them throughout.
I think you really want peopleto care about these two because
that's what makes ultimately Phoebedeciding to rewrite the ending.
Because we wanna care about the way theending goes, we need to have more of them.
(21:12):
So it was a really big kind of restructurelift to then implant more of Phoebe and
Armitage throughout the story and kindof bolster that historical narrative.
So that's very interesting.
So I can really relate to this ideaof like family genealogy and you
discover like, is there this scandalor whatever because my family is
(21:34):
very into genealogy and there aremany different scandals that I'm
like, I want to research that.
So at what point did you come tothis story inspired to write with
a modern narrator, bringing themodern gaze onto the historical?
Mm-hmm.
Or did you kind of find that as youwere writing because you were already,
were interested in this period?
So it was weird when I first.
(21:56):
I was really into, I was very contemporarybrained because I love historicals,
but I was very intimidated by writinga historical, and so originally what
I was going to do was, you know,this book is inspired by a real
life vaudeville troupe called BillyWatson's "Beef Trust," which was a
group of dancers all over 200 pounds.
And I was like, that's such acool entry point for a story.
(22:17):
But again.
Historicals were scary.
So I was like, not gonna do that.
So the idea was originally it was goingto be almost like Julia and Julia,
you know the book about like the womanwho does all the Julia Child recipes.
And so it was gonna be a modernday kind of romantic coming of age
story about a woman who does likeburlesque classes through the lens
(22:42):
of this Billy Watson "Beef Trust."
And then like around the same time asI had that idea, a lot of people were
writing sort of contemporary, growinginto your own self-confidence narratives
and as like a plus size woman, I wasjust sort of like, I don't know if,
I think we've had enough of those, Ithink, and I didn't know of a way to
crack it that felt unique and likereally relevant and important in this
(23:06):
current moment.
So then I was like, you know what?
It's time.
We're gonna do the historical thingand that's just gonna be what it
is, and if it fails, then you failedand you're in the same place you are
right now, so maybe you'll succeed.
Who knows?
And so I started to writethe historical narrative.
And what ended up happening was, asI was researching, I just realized
(23:26):
that a lot of what we have been taughtabout these historical time periods
is extremely conservative, extremelywhite, extremely heteronormative.
Totally ignores the contributionsof disabled people, and the queer
community, and certainly people of color.
And this particular moment of historywas an inflection point where we had
(23:48):
had kind of a liberalizing force.
And vaudeville was a huge part ofthat because then you had these very
diverse performers who traveled thecountry and brought new ideas to
these smaller American communities.
And then the backlash to that camewith these very regressive newspaper
interests who then turned their poweragainst these marginalized communities.
(24:10):
And what I had found when I waskind of coming up as a historical
romance reader, like I, I firstfell in love with historical romance
through like Alyssa Cole's books,for example, an extraordinary union.
And what I found they really came upagainst, you know, you know, Vanessa
Riley's had this, Piper Huguley's hadthis, you know, Courtney Milan, like, they
(24:32):
have all talked very candidly about howreaders will contact them and be like,
your happily ever after is impossible.
It's not historically accurate.
Your books are, you know,historical fantasy basically.
And no matter how much they wouldcorrect the record and be like,
no, here are my source here.
Here's a huge blog post aboutwhere I got this history from.
(24:55):
People would still just contend withthem and say, you know, this isn't real.
This isn't right.
Because they have a conception ofhistory rather than a truth of history.
And so, you know, one of my favoriteexpressions is some philosophical
problems or debates should bedissolved rather than resolved.
And so when you realize that peoplewho have these historical blind
(25:18):
spots, there is nothing you can say toconvince them that this is the truth.
They don't want the truth,they want the narrative.
And so what I decided was, I actuallydon't care if you believe it's
historically accurate, but someone isgonna tell you it's historically accurate.
And so what I did was I invented Phoebeas an authority figure who comes in and
(25:42):
says like, these are the historical facts.
This is the historical record, andhere's how I'm fictionalizing it.
I wanted a book that contended with bothaspects of that debate and ultimately
comes on the side of, I don't care.
I don't care what you think about thehistory or how I present it because I am
(26:03):
also developing my own narrative, right?
If regressive forces can doit, then so can I, and mine is
gonna be closer to the truth.
But it's also gonna be a celebrationof joy and of community and
solidarity and fighting to moveour culture and society forward.
Yeah.
Well it also sounds like since shedecides to give them a happily ever
(26:23):
after, she also represents the partthat kind of gets left out in those
like high quote unquote debates.
Mm-hmm.
Which is that none of usare writing nonfiction.
Yes, we are all writing fiction.
And so yes, it is.
Fantasy.
Fantasy, meaning weare all inventing this.
And so some of it is more pulled fromtrue history and some of it is more
(26:47):
pulled from genre history and some ofit is just pulled from our, you know
if you wanna talk about a collectiveconsciousness or a muse or whatever.
Mm-hmm.
Like we're allowed to write whateverwe want in our books, and you
can enjoy them whether they'rehistorically accurate or not.
Exactly.
All right, well okay.
I have one more question for youbefore we do love it or leave it.
(27:10):
In your research did you discoveranything about how the conception
of body image and whether it haschanged or not changed since 1897?
Yeah, absolutely.
At this particular moment in history,in like the 1870 to early 1890s, you
had a much more celebratory image of theplus size woman in particular because it
(27:37):
was a sign of immigrant success, right.
You know, there's this idea of kindof the, the shivering, huddled masses
coming off at Ellis Island, starving andoppressed and thin, emaciated, whatever.
And then the contrast to that is,well, you come to America and you
are successful and then you areable to feed your children and then
(27:59):
your daughter is like beautiful andbuxom and healthy and she glows.
And you know, there was like thiskind of famous thing about, I think it
was President Garfield, I'm not sure.
Where they always celebrated the factthat like his favorite food was beef
and he looked so healthy and prosperousand it was a celebration of like the
kind of conception we have of Americaas the land of plenty and the place of
(28:22):
opportunity and you can grow and succeedhere and come from a land of starvation
and then be in a place of bounty.
And then there was a series ofeconomic panics in the late 1890s that
contributed to very anti-immigrantrhetoric, particularly in the newspapers.
Which then they kind of reframedfatness as a sort of like the idea
(28:48):
of like welfare queens, like theseimmigrants come to this country and
they take our jobs and then they'refat and lazy and they don't contribute.
And it almost overnight totallyshifted via propaganda to like
the demonization of the fat body.
Which is how, you know, you get like.
The Gibson girls, which was like a turnof the century kind of fashion ideal
(29:09):
of like very slim, very slender verylike quote unquote "American ideal."
And that really fascinated me washow the fear of the other intertwined
with economic panic and the need
to put the blame on someone who wasnot a rich robber baron, who was
really the problem, not the immigrantswho were hardworking and, and here
(29:30):
to make better lives for themselves.
You know, that need to protectwealthy interests and find a
scapegoat ultimately really didyou know, color our perception of
fat bodies, and we even see it today,you know, when recessions happen
thin bodies get much more celebrated.
We see it currently on like, quote unquote"skinny tok." You can really tell how
(29:54):
the economy is doing based on how wefeel about plus size women in particular
or plus size female presenting bodies.
So yeah, it certainly is, it was notonly interesting to discover that,
but then to watch the cycle in motion.
That's really interesting to to knowthat this is a cycle through history.
So I knew that there was anti-immigrantrhetoric back in the 1890s and that
(30:16):
it's been cyclical or whatever.
I had no idea that anti-immigrantrhetoric is also linked to how we as a
society generally think about bodies.
Mm-hmm.
Exactly.
All right.
Well, I think it's time to play.
Love it or leave it.
[Musical Interlude]
Do you love it or leave it?
(30:37):
Protagonists meet in thefirst 10% of the novel.
Love it.
Love it or leave it?
Dual point of view, narration.
I love it and you'll find it in ashowgirls Rules for falling in love.
Yay.
Love it or leave it?
Third person, past tense.
I love it.
Also, here we are.
Well this one's actuallyinteresting 'cause it has both.
(30:58):
It has a first person past andit has a third person past.
So very fun.
Hmm.
In your contemporaries, areyou first person present?
No, it depends.
So sometimes I do third person past,sometimes I do first person past.
I have trouble with present tense.
Just 'cause I'm not good at writing it.
So I almost never, I almost never use it.
Fair.
Fair.
(31:19):
All right.
Do you love it or leave it?
Third act breakup or dark moments?
Absolutely, yes.
You don't even have tofinish the question.
I am here to feel bad and then feel great.
I love, I love it when booksmake me feel things and I think.
You know, my husband always looks at meand he's like, are you crying right now?
Like, what, what bad thingis happening in the book?
And I'm like, no, I'm crying becausethey got everything they wanted.
(31:41):
And like the struggle is what makesthat getting everything they wanted.
Just like the best cry in the world.
So yeah, I love a thirdact breakup or dark moment.
You can pry it from a cold, dead hands.
If the third act breakup has nofans, then I am gone from this earth.
All right.
Love it or leave it?
Always end with an epilogue.
(32:03):
No, don't, no, leave it.
All right.
Love it or leave it?
Always share researchin your author's note.
I love it, but I
don't think I did it.
I think I mentioned in myauthor's note, I put, I have
an author's note on my website.
And then in my acknowledgement at the endof the book, I kind of a thank you to a
(32:27):
lot of these sort of forgotten vaudevillefigures, you know, and I thanked them
for like, not only their contributesthe contributions to the art form, but
also to what they brought to the book.
But I, I haven't.
I have a huge document.
I think it's like 30 pages long thatI guess I could share with people, but
I don't think they'd want to read it.
So I guess make it a newsletter bonus.
Exactly.
(32:48):
A love it and leave it,I suppose for that one.
Alright.
And finally, are there any romancerules I didn't ask about that you
like to break or push boundaries on?
I mean, I guess I, we probably shouldput a spoiler tag on this episode
'cause the twist of the HEA is likethe biggest twist in this book.
But I think, you know, when I firstbrought this book to my agent,
(33:10):
my first question was like, doyou think this book has an HEA?
And she was like, no, it definitely does.
Like, 'cause they do the rewrite.
But it has been, you know, interestinglycontroversial 'cause a lot of people
are like, well, it's not a real HEA andmy response is, none of this is real.
It's all made up.
But I, I do think this book reallygrapples with the HEA as a concept.
(33:33):
But I think it leaves peoplefeeling like they've gotten one.
So yeah, spoilers a bound everybody.
Sorry, it's too late to let you know now.
But yeah, the HEA.
Alright, well that is a reallybig one to play with, but I'm
actually very excited that you did.
I think we always need to play withrules to see are they still, you know,
worthwhile and what do they serve theart form and, and all of that, so.
(33:58):
Mm-hmm.
So, yeah.
Thank you.
We're gonna have to wrap up eventhough I feel like I could ask
you another million questions.
So a showgirls Rules for Fallingin Love is out on May 13th.
And where can readers find the book?
And also where can readers find you?
You can find me at Alice Murphy bookson Instagram and Alice Murphy books.com.
(34:22):
You can find the bookanywhere fine books are sold.
Please support your local indiebooksellers and you know, I
think the audio book is supposedto come out soon as well.
So if you're an audio girly,we have a great reader.
And yeah, you can find it
anywhere books are sold.
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much,Alice, for coming on.
This has been a real delight.
It has been amazing.
(34:42):
Thank you so much.
And thank you
to all the listeners out there.
All my fellow historicalromance sampler listeners!
That's it for this week!
Don't forget to subscribe to theHistorical Romance Sampler wherever
you listen, and follow us onInstagram, TikTok, and YouTube.
Until next week, happy reading!
Welcome to the historicalromance sampler podcast.
I'm your host, Katherine Grant, andeach week I introduce you to another
amazing historical romance author.
My guest reads a little sampleof their work, and then we move
into a free ranging interview.
If you like these episodes, don'tforget to subscribe to the historical
(00:24):
romance sampler, wherever youlisten to podcasts and follow us
on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube.
Now let's get into this week's episode.
I am super excited to bejoined today by Alice Murphy.
Alice Murphy is the pen name ofa writer from the deep South.
A university lecturer, a disability rightsadvocate, and a lover of classic Hollywood
(00:48):
movies and cheese steaks, she also writescontemporary romance novels, television,
and films under her given name.
Alice, I'm so excited tohave you here with us today.
Thank you so much for having me.
I am such a huge fan of the podcast.
I have found so many books from it, soI am absolutely delighted to be here.
Oh, I'm so glad to hear that.
(01:09):
So you're reading for us a historicalromance that is out this week.
A Showgirl's Rules for Falling In Love.
So what should we know about thebook and also about the little
scene that you're gonna read for us?
Yeah, so a showgirls rules forfalling in Love is actually,
it's a dual timeline romance.
So it's predominantly historical,but it has this really delicious
(01:29):
contemporary romance sort of framing it.
So in the modern day we have a historianwho is asked by a man to investigate
what he thinks is kind of a torrid loveaffair that one of his ancestors has.
He's like, you know, go back, doall the research and tell me if my
great, great grandfather and thisshowgirl were really in love.
(01:52):
And so she does that.
She digs through the historical recordsand she is actually the one who is
writing the historical romance portion.
And that is, a showgirl who, you know,she's kind of this plus size, you
know kind of starlet of the vaudevillescene slowly finds that she's getting
less and less work, and so is hervery diverse group of theater makers.
(02:18):
Because of conservative newspaperinterests that are sort of attacking them
as being, outside of the norm and not safefor " wholesome American eyes," you know?
And so what she decides to do is shedecides to seduce this theater Impresario
who is opening this new big pleasurepalace on 34th Street, and she's like,
well, I'm gonna seduce him and I'mgonna make him, do everything I want.
(02:41):
Which includes hiring me andall of my friends to Star in
his Vaudeville Spectacular.
But of course, she thinksthis is gonna be kind of a cut
and dry business transaction.
I'll give you what you want,which is me, and you'll gimme
what I want, which is my career.
And of course, they sort of unraveleach other and, and fall in love.
We know from the very beginning that thesetwo characters don't end up together.
(03:04):
They don't really havea happily ever after.
But Phoebe, our historian in thepresent day, she has the pen and
so she gets to decide how theirlove story ends, for everyone who's
gonna read this story in the future.
And so this book is like a sort offearless defense of the happily ever after
and writing our own happily ever afters.
And this scene I'm gonna read is whereThomas and Evelyn, our two historical
(03:28):
figures meet for the very first timeafter he has just watched her on stage
and she's blown him a kiss in the audience
'cause she knows that he'slike rich, handsome man.
And she's gonna try and hook him.
So this is their first interactionwhere he comes to her dressing room
to meet her for the first time.
Awesome.
That's so exciting.
The man from the operabox was Thomas Gallier.
(03:50):
She was certain of it.
Sure, there might've been about 50 yardsand a hell of a lot of stage light between
them, but it was her job to know whereher next meal could come from and if
what she read in the papers was true,
Thomas Gallier lookedlike a 12 course dinner.
Blowing kisses was oneof her signature moves.
She didn't originate the practice,certainly, but she'd learned over
(04:10):
time that men couldn't resistbeing singled out in a crowd.
They all, without exception, had apathological belief that they were
somehow exceptional, an obsessionwith being the one and only
chosen out of an endless stream.
So it didn't surprise her when therewas a knock at her dressing room door.
In fact, she was waitingfor it, expecting it.
She would've been disappointed, maybeeven devastated if he hadn't come.
(04:34):
" Hey Evelyn," a gruff voice stagehandcalled, "You've got a visitor." For a
moment, she considered how to play this.
She'd entertained plenty of men in herdressing room before men who would go
on to buy her furs, take her for dinnerand dancing or to introduce her to
other men who could get her booking.
On those occasions, she playedit all very cool, very coy,
very refined, almost aloof.
(04:56):
But lately those meetings took upless and less space on her social
calendar, and she couldn't rememberthe last time any of them had wanted
to continue their dalliances in public.
Of all the men she'd met, none ofthem had ever been in a position to
help her quite like Thomas Gallier,
and considering the holes in her stockingsand the sprawling emptiness of her
future, she didn't have time for subtlety.
(05:18):
"A handsome gentlemancaller, I hope," she crooned.
A beat of assessment fromthe other side of the door.
"Eh, he is all right."Evelyn knew that wasn't true.
Thomas Gallier was one of those rarecreatures of the Manhattan jungle: a
genuinely good looking man of means.
Most wealthy men, Evelyn wouldcharacterize as interesting to look at.
(05:40):
They were fine enough on theirown, but it was the gleam of gold
watches and pearl cuff links thatreally made their features shine.
Thomas Gallier, on the otherhand, would've been the handsomest
ditch digger just as easilyas the handsomest millionaire.
There was a marble qualityabout his tall and built frame.
His smooth features toowere worthy of Michelangelo.
His dark hair hung slightlyroguish across his forehead like
(06:03):
a painting of a tempting devil.
"Well, can the gentleman wait? I'm afraidI having a stitch of clothing on." A lie.
With a robe thrown over her costume,
she was as close to fully dressedas she ever got backstage, but no
harm in giving him a little bit tochew on before he entered her den.
A moment later, she crossed thedoor and peeked it open, intending
to only give him a brief lookat her to heighten the suspense.
(06:26):
Unfortunately, something infinitelymore devastating occurred.
She realized he was even morehandsome up close than from afar.
A little tired maybe, but withcrystalline green eyes that could
make you believed he loved you andonly you right there on the spot.
The kind of handsome that made knees weak.
The kind of handsome that could be very,very dangerous to a woman like her.
(06:49):
"Miss Cross, it's a pleasure to meetyou." He started out innocently enough
cordial, refined, even professional.
That deep English accentof his didn't hurt matters.
Then his eyes traveled down, down, downthe nearly bare curve of her shoulder
and southward to more exotic locales.
"The pleasure's all mine, Mr..."
"Gallier," he said, his eyes snappingup and his body coiling in that
(07:11):
practiced rigidity so common inthe higher quarters of society.
"Thomas Gallier, that's right,"she said ushering him in.
"I think I read something about youin the papers." Gallier chuckled.
Nice smile though she wasn'tsure it was particularly genuine.
"I can assure you anything you'rereading there is a pack of lies."
"Oh, even the ladies columnabout you being, what was it?
(07:33):
They called you A handsome man witha constraint of passion that leaps
like flame into desire." "They wroteno such thing." "No, you're right.
I must have read that in a book somewhere.
But it describes you quite well.
You can understand my confusion." Thiswas a dance she knew well, the steps so
rehearsed she could do them in her sleep.
She would flirt a little.
He would assess her legs.
(07:54):
In the year of our Lord 1897, ifyour legs held a man's attention,
he was as good as yours.
And then they would get down to theparticulars of their exchange, her company
for his help in a polite, roundabout waythat left both of their consciences clean.
But Thomas Gallier didn't fit themold, not the way she wanted him to.
Standing near the doors of waitingto bolt, he stood out like a gray
(08:17):
rain cloud amidst her wardrobes,frilly feathers and pallette hues.
As a partner in this dance, hestumbled, never quite committing
to her tempo or letting her lead.
Strange that men were often so happyto be lured to their own destruction.
Gallier cocked his head.
"Do you think you're flatteringme?" "Is it working?" "I can
(08:38):
assure you it's not necessary.""Flattery isn't ever necessary Mr.
Gallier, but I findit's a bit like alcohol.
Good for lubricating all sortsof interactions." Not her
most subtle of approaches.
The man cleared his throat and avertedhis gaze from her while taking sudden
interest in a virginal white gown, dippedin red, hanging from her dressing screen.
"Speaking of alcohol," she said whenit became clear he'd lost his words,
(09:02):
"maybe we could celebrate your visitwith a glass of champagne." "I'm not
one to drink." "Shall we sit then?""I would prefer to stand." Damn him.
Now he was making her stumbletime for a new approach.
"Well then, do you mind if I sit?" "Byall means," he said flat, but polite.
With his attention elsewhere, he freedEvelyn to situate herself on the chaise
(09:24):
lounge stretched across the far wall.
"The long of the short of it is this,Miss cross," he began, still directing
his speech at the gown instead of her.
Did he know she'd once gotten a ticketfor indecency for performing in that gown?
Her writhing in the role of sensualSalome had popped one of the pearl
buttons down the front, exposing hersuper structure to the entirety of
(09:46):
the Atlantic City theater's audience.
Surely not, or he wouldn't have beentrusting it to keep his eyes pure.
"The Empire Theater isopening in three weeks.
I've my pick of performers,mind you, and there's plenty of
remarkable talent in the city.
No doubt about it.
You should see them comingin and out all the time.
Audition after audition,acts of the highest caliber."
"I have no doubt." His gaze flickeredto the mirror, which lined the
(10:09):
room's longest wall and gave afull view of everything he'd been
unable to see with his back turned.
His words fell out in a tumble then,rushing to end this interaction
before he could fall into her trap.
Poor thing, didn't he know the only wayto defeat temptation was to succumb?
"But after some deliberation anda considerable amount of thought,
I believe you would look just fineon the umpire's marquee, just fine.
(10:32):
As I said, I've my pick of performers,so I won't be hardballed, but if
you're interested, I could offeryou a fair wage top billing.
And why are you sitting like that?" Ina blur of a man, he turned on his heel
to give her just what she'd wanted.
His full attention.
His full lustful, frustrated, attentionfocused squarely on her body, arms
(10:52):
raised up over her head in a lazy repose.
She propped herself up on a pile of thechaise longue's pillows, so her gorgeous
breasts straining against her corsetwere the most pronounced part of her.
Everything else from her bare wriststo her stocking clad legs were
sprawled and open, ready to receive.
She didn't flinch from his gaze.
(11:13):
"Because I want you tosee me sitting like this,"
she said.
Wordlessly, his eyes traced herwaiting form, then made the return trip
back to her lips where they settled.
"Miss cross?" That was a question.
"Mr. Gallier?" That was an answer.
"I've offered you what you want,"he said, words shaking from some
unseen effort deep inside of him.
(11:35):
"You don't need to do this."
"In my experience, a man's promises aren'tworth anything until after the glow of
seduction is gone." It was the truth.
Listening to lovesick Menwas a hereditary sickness.
A sin of the mother passed down oneto which she would've never succumb.
She needed something from him.
She was going to do whatshe needed to get it.
Simple as that.
(11:55):
If those facts bothered him, so be it.
And indeed bother him they did.
He flinched.
His face turned to stone.
"Miss cross, I should like tomake one thing perfectly clear.
I do not mix business with pleasureno matter how much I may want to.
Tomorrow, I will be at the Empireon 34th Street with my associate
to see your act promptly at noon.
(12:15):
Is that understood?" She blinked. "Sure.""And one more thing." "Yes?" Maybe she
imagined it, but she was certain thelines in his face softened just barely,
just enough for her to notice, justenough to give her hope. "This isn't you.
I don't know who exactly youare, but I do hope she shows up
(12:35):
tomorrow instead of whoever thisis." With nothing else to say,
the man departed.
Evelyn listened to the sound of hisfootsteps carrying down the hall.
Then she raced to the window to watchhis figure eventually exit the theater
below and enter awaiting carriage.
It was only when that carriage disappearedinto the sea of Manhattan streets that she
finally slumped, letting her mask slip.
(12:58):
At first there was anger.
How dare he lecture her about whoshe was when they had only just
met when he didn't have any ideaof her life or her character?
Outside of a few moments on thestage, she was used to patronizing
men, but somehow Thomas Gallier'scondescension, particularly stung.
But it wasn't just his condescension,
she realized, looking up at that cursedBanting's advertisement now lit by
(13:20):
a pair of spotlights in the night,because under her anger there was pain.
He didn't want you.
That pain said he rejected youbecause he didn't want you just like
everyone else in the city lately.
She reexamined every moment of theirencounter, scanning for anything
she'd done wrong, any missteps she'dtaken, but it all kept coming back
to that little insecure thought.
(13:42):
He didn't want you.
That was until she remembered something,something she'd missed during that
first run of their little drama.
Something that made her think allhope wasn't lost for him, for them.
After all, "I do not mix businesswith pleasure," he'd said,
"no matter how I may want to."
(14:04):
ooh, that was so tantalizing.
Thank you.
I'm so glad you enjoyed.
Absolutely.
I did.
There was so much there.
I have a million questions foryou but first we're gonna take
a quick break for our sponsors.
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(15:30):
Have you checked out the officialHistorical Romance Sampler
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Head on over to the Historical RomanceSampler link tree to learn more.
I am back with Alice Murphy, whojust read from A Showgirl's Rules for
Falling in Love, which is out this week.
Super exciting.
There's so much from this deliciousscene that you read and then also from
the background that you gave us onthe book that I want to talk about.
(16:13):
I love that we have a starchy hero.
Who doesn't love a starchy hero?
One of my favorites.
It's so great and I think the reasonI love it and, and the reason that
I love this pairing in particular.
She's like very cynical and very liketransactional in her relationships, which
comes out of, you know, being a girl whogrew up like in a theater world of men.
(16:34):
Like she knows what she hasto do to get what she wants.
And he's also like very controlledand very rigid and he's just a
man who's wrapped up in a littletense ball of self denial.
And the best thing about putting thosetwo people together is because he
doesn't buy kind of her bs, she hasto kind of become a more true version
(16:58):
of herself for him and because she islike relentlessly trying to get him to
kind of give in to desire that sheknows he clearly has, he becomes
a more true version of himself.
You know, he, he lets loose, he kindof gives into things he wants more.
There's a scene where they go toConey Island and she buys some
cracker Jacks and he's like, Ican't remember the last time I ate
(17:20):
something just for the pleasure of it.
And I think that's what's beautifulabout romance and the thing that I love
about romance the most is watching twopeople become more true versions of
themselves because of what the otherperson brings to the relationship.
And that's what, that's what Ithink makes Thomas and Evelyn
just such a fun couple to read andcertainly a fun couple to write.
(17:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so you developed these charactersbecause you are the author of this
book, however, your other character,you said her name was Phoebe,
she fictionally developed thesecharacters and wrote this, yeah.
This story.
So how, how was that for you in termsof your writing process and then
(18:09):
in terms of, you know, I'm assumingPhoebe is not a complete self insert
of you, so, so differentiating howPhoebe related to the characters versus
how you relate to the characters.
Yeah, so that's one of the thingsthat I love the most about the frame
story is, you know, Phoebe startsto fall in love with Armitage, who's
the guy who was hired her to do thisresearch and he doesn't anticipate
(18:35):
she's gonna write a book about it.
And so the kind of knockout, drag outfight they have at the end is he's
like, this is my family's legacy.
Like I'm a public figure.
You can't just likewrite a book about this.
And she's like, well, it's not fair.
If I don't publish this, thenthey're gonna be lost forever.
And I don't want that for them.
And I care about these figures from thepast that we've all kind of erased and
(18:56):
forgotten not just Thomas and Evelyn, but
evelyn's diverse group of theater friends.
And so when I was writing Phoebewriting this history, it was all
about teasing out the parallels.
So, the things that she might'vewanted from Armitage that she didn't
get, she gives to Evelyn via Thomas.
(19:19):
And the version of her that shewishes she was, because she's not as
confident as Evelyn, she doesn't saywhat she wants as much as Evelyn.
She kind of gets to live out herfantasies of being that person
through fictionalizing this history.
And then of course there's theHappily Ever After Element, which she
ultimately does give to Thomas andEvelyn in, I would say spectacular form.
(19:42):
It's like if you love that like kindof big last scene of Moulin Rouge,
like where all everything hits the fanI think you're gonna like the ending.
So it, it was, for me, it was all about,because I don't actually really see much
of myself in either of these characters.
So it was really about, I thinkPhoebe is the core because Phoebe then
(20:03):
projects everything about herself,her relationship, onto Thomas and
Evelyn while still incorporatingthese like, quote unquote historical
facts about their relationship.
Did you write Evelyn and Thomas's storyand then Phoebe and Armitage's story?
So this is actually one ofthose fun editing things.
So I had an amazing editor named ErinMcClary who, when I brought the book
(20:26):
to Union Square and they decided theywanted to buy it there was actually
only one chapter of Armitage andPhoebe, and it happens like right at
the end, and it was like 30 pages long.
It was sort of like, you know,like when you read a Fanfic and
it's like five times she said no.
And one time she said yes.
Right?
And it's like these little, likemicro scenes of a relationship.
(20:48):
That's sort of what it was.
So Phoebe narrated throughout the wholething, but then she only got one chapter
and Erin McClary was like, I don't thinkthat's the strongest choice for this book.
I think you need to have them throughout.
I think you really want peopleto care about these two because
that's what makes ultimately Phoebedeciding to rewrite the ending.
Because we wanna care about the way theending goes, we need to have more of them.
(21:12):
So it was a really big kind of restructurelift to then implant more of Phoebe and
Armitage throughout the story and kindof bolster that historical narrative.
So that's very interesting.
So I can really relate to this ideaof like family genealogy and you
discover like, is there this scandalor whatever because my family is
(21:34):
very into genealogy and there aremany different scandals that I'm
like, I want to research that.
So at what point did you come tothis story inspired to write with
a modern narrator, bringing themodern gaze onto the historical?
Mm-hmm.
Or did you kind of find that as youwere writing because you were already,
were interested in this period?
So it was weird when I first.
(21:56):
I was really into, I was very contemporarybrained because I love historicals,
but I was very intimidated by writinga historical, and so originally what
I was going to do was, you know,this book is inspired by a real
life vaudeville troupe called BillyWatson's "Beef Trust," which was a
group of dancers all over 200 pounds.
And I was like, that's such acool entry point for a story.
(22:17):
But again.
Historicals were scary.
So I was like, not gonna do that.
So the idea was originally it was goingto be almost like Julia and Julia,
you know the book about like the womanwho does all the Julia Child recipes.
And so it was gonna be a modernday kind of romantic coming of age
story about a woman who does likeburlesque classes through the lens
(22:42):
of this Billy Watson "Beef Trust."
And then like around the same time asI had that idea, a lot of people were
writing sort of contemporary, growinginto your own self-confidence narratives
and as like a plus size woman, I wasjust sort of like, I don't know if,
I think we've had enough of those, Ithink, and I didn't know of a way to
crack it that felt unique and likereally relevant and important in this
(23:06):
current moment.
So then I was like, you know what?
It's time.
We're gonna do the historical thingand that's just gonna be what it
is, and if it fails, then you failedand you're in the same place you are
right now, so maybe you'll succeed.
Who knows?
And so I started to writethe historical narrative.
And what ended up happening was, asI was researching, I just realized
(23:26):
that a lot of what we have been taughtabout these historical time periods
is extremely conservative, extremelywhite, extremely heteronormative.
Totally ignores the contributionsof disabled people, and the queer
community, and certainly people of color.
And this particular moment of historywas an inflection point where we had
(23:48):
had kind of a liberalizing force.
And vaudeville was a huge part ofthat because then you had these very
diverse performers who traveled thecountry and brought new ideas to
these smaller American communities.
And then the backlash to that camewith these very regressive newspaper
interests who then turned their poweragainst these marginalized communities.
(24:10):
And what I had found when I waskind of coming up as a historical
romance reader, like I, I firstfell in love with historical romance
through like Alyssa Cole's books,for example, an extraordinary union.
And what I found they really came upagainst, you know, you know, Vanessa
Riley's had this, Piper Huguley's hadthis, you know, Courtney Milan, like, they
(24:32):
have all talked very candidly about howreaders will contact them and be like,
your happily ever after is impossible.
It's not historically accurate.
Your books are, you know,historical fantasy basically.
And no matter how much they wouldcorrect the record and be like,
no, here are my source here.
Here's a huge blog post aboutwhere I got this history from.
(24:55):
People would still just contend withthem and say, you know, this isn't real.
This isn't right.
Because they have a conception ofhistory rather than a truth of history.
And so, you know, one of my favoriteexpressions is some philosophical
problems or debates should bedissolved rather than resolved.
And so when you realize that peoplewho have these historical blind
(25:18):
spots, there is nothing you can say toconvince them that this is the truth.
They don't want the truth,they want the narrative.
And so what I decided was, I actuallydon't care if you believe it's
historically accurate, but someone isgonna tell you it's historically accurate.
And so what I did was I invented Phoebeas an authority figure who comes in and
(25:42):
says like, these are the historical facts.
This is the historical record, andhere's how I'm fictionalizing it.
I wanted a book that contended with bothaspects of that debate and ultimately
comes on the side of, I don't care.
I don't care what you think about thehistory or how I present it because I am
(26:03):
also developing my own narrative, right?
If regressive forces can doit, then so can I, and mine is
gonna be closer to the truth.
But it's also gonna be a celebrationof joy and of community and
solidarity and fighting to moveour culture and society forward.
Yeah.
Well it also sounds like since shedecides to give them a happily ever
(26:23):
after, she also represents the partthat kind of gets left out in those
like high quote unquote debates.
Mm-hmm.
Which is that none of usare writing nonfiction.
Yes, we are all writing fiction.
And so yes, it is.
Fantasy.
Fantasy, meaning weare all inventing this.
And so some of it is more pulled fromtrue history and some of it is more
(26:47):
pulled from genre history and some ofit is just pulled from our, you know
if you wanna talk about a collectiveconsciousness or a muse or whatever.
Mm-hmm.
Like we're allowed to write whateverwe want in our books, and you
can enjoy them whether they'rehistorically accurate or not.
Exactly.
All right, well okay.
I have one more question for youbefore we do love it or leave it.
(27:10):
In your research did you discoveranything about how the conception
of body image and whether it haschanged or not changed since 1897?
Yeah, absolutely.
At this particular moment in history,in like the 1870 to early 1890s, you
had a much more celebratory image of theplus size woman in particular because it
(27:37):
was a sign of immigrant success, right.
You know, there's this idea of kindof the, the shivering, huddled masses
coming off at Ellis Island, starving andoppressed and thin, emaciated, whatever.
And then the contrast to that is,well, you come to America and you
are successful and then you areable to feed your children and then
(27:59):
your daughter is like beautiful andbuxom and healthy and she glows.
And you know, there was like thiskind of famous thing about, I think it
was President Garfield, I'm not sure.
Where they always celebrated the factthat like his favorite food was beef
and he looked so healthy and prosperousand it was a celebration of like the
kind of conception we have of Americaas the land of plenty and the place of
(28:22):
opportunity and you can grow and succeedhere and come from a land of starvation
and then be in a place of bounty.
And then there was a series ofeconomic panics in the late 1890s that
contributed to very anti-immigrantrhetoric, particularly in the newspapers.
Which then they kind of reframedfatness as a sort of like the idea
(28:48):
of like welfare queens, like theseimmigrants come to this country and
they take our jobs and then they'refat and lazy and they don't contribute.
And it almost overnight totallyshifted via propaganda to like
the demonization of the fat body.
Which is how, you know, you get like.
The Gibson girls, which was like a turnof the century kind of fashion ideal
(29:09):
of like very slim, very slender verylike quote unquote "American ideal."
And that really fascinated me washow the fear of the other intertwined
with economic panic and the need
to put the blame on someone who wasnot a rich robber baron, who was
really the problem, not the immigrantswho were hardworking and, and here
(29:30):
to make better lives for themselves.
You know, that need to protectwealthy interests and find a
scapegoat ultimately really didyou know, color our perception of
fat bodies, and we even see it today,you know, when recessions happen
thin bodies get much more celebrated.
We see it currently on like, quote unquote"skinny tok." You can really tell how
(29:54):
the economy is doing based on how wefeel about plus size women in particular
or plus size female presenting bodies.
So yeah, it certainly is, it was notonly interesting to discover that,
but then to watch the cycle in motion.
That's really interesting to to knowthat this is a cycle through history.
So I knew that there was anti-immigrantrhetoric back in the 1890s and that
(30:16):
it's been cyclical or whatever.
I had no idea that anti-immigrantrhetoric is also linked to how we as a
society generally think about bodies.
Mm-hmm.
Exactly.
All right.
Well, I think it's time to play.
Love it or leave it.
[Musical Interlude]
Do you love it or leave it?
(30:37):
Protagonists meet in thefirst 10% of the novel.
Love it.
Love it or leave it?
Dual point of view, narration.
I love it and you'll find it in ashowgirls Rules for falling in love.
Yay.
Love it or leave it?
Third person, past tense.
I love it.
Also, here we are.
Well this one's actuallyinteresting 'cause it has both.
(30:58):
It has a first person past andit has a third person past.
So very fun.
Hmm.
In your contemporaries, areyou first person present?
No, it depends.
So sometimes I do third person past,sometimes I do first person past.
I have trouble with present tense.
Just 'cause I'm not good at writing it.
So I almost never, I almost never use it.
Fair.
Fair.
(31:19):
All right.
Do you love it or leave it?
Third act breakup or dark moments?
Absolutely, yes.
You don't even have tofinish the question.
I am here to feel bad and then feel great.
I love, I love it when booksmake me feel things and I think.
You know, my husband always looks at meand he's like, are you crying right now?
Like, what, what bad thingis happening in the book?
And I'm like, no, I'm crying becausethey got everything they wanted.
(31:41):
And like the struggle is what makesthat getting everything they wanted.
Just like the best cry in the world.
So yeah, I love a thirdact breakup or dark moment.
You can pry it from a cold, dead hands.
If the third act breakup has nofans, then I am gone from this earth.
All right.
Love it or leave it?
Always end with an epilogue.
(32:03):
No, don't, no, leave it.
All right.
Love it or leave it?
Always share researchin your author's note.
I love it, but I
don't think I did it.
I think I mentioned in myauthor's note, I put, I have
an author's note on my website.
And then in my acknowledgement at the endof the book, I kind of a thank you to a
(32:27):
lot of these sort of forgotten vaudevillefigures, you know, and I thanked them
for like, not only their contributesthe contributions to the art form, but
also to what they brought to the book.
But I, I haven't.
I have a huge document.
I think it's like 30 pages long thatI guess I could share with people, but
I don't think they'd want to read it.
So I guess make it a newsletter bonus.
Exactly.
(32:48):
A love it and leave it,I suppose for that one.
Alright.
And finally, are there any romancerules I didn't ask about that you
like to break or push boundaries on?
I mean, I guess I, we probably shouldput a spoiler tag on this episode
'cause the twist of the HEA is likethe biggest twist in this book.
But I think, you know, when I firstbrought this book to my agent,
(33:10):
my first question was like, doyou think this book has an HEA?
And she was like, no, it definitely does.
Like, 'cause they do the rewrite.
But it has been, you know, interestinglycontroversial 'cause a lot of people
are like, well, it's not a real HEA andmy response is, none of this is real.
It's all made up.
But I, I do think this book reallygrapples with the HEA as a concept.
(33:33):
But I think it leaves peoplefeeling like they've gotten one.
So yeah, spoilers a bound everybody.
Sorry, it's too late to let you know now.
But yeah, the HEA.
Alright, well that is a reallybig one to play with, but I'm
actually very excited that you did.
I think we always need to play withrules to see are they still, you know,
worthwhile and what do they serve theart form and, and all of that, so.
(33:58):
Mm-hmm.
So, yeah.
Thank you.
We're gonna have to wrap up eventhough I feel like I could ask
you another million questions.
So a showgirls Rules for Fallingin Love is out on May 13th.
And where can readers find the book?
And also where can readers find you?
You can find me at Alice Murphy bookson Instagram and Alice Murphy books.com.
(34:22):
You can find the bookanywhere fine books are sold.
Please support your local indiebooksellers and you know, I
think the audio book is supposedto come out soon as well.
So if you're an audio girly,we have a great reader.
And yeah, you can find it
anywhere books are sold.
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much,Alice, for coming on.
This has been a real delight.
It has been amazing.
(34:42):
Thank you so much.
And thank you
to all the listeners out there.
All my fellow historicalromance sampler listeners!
That's it for this week!
Don't forget to subscribe to theHistorical Romance Sampler wherever
you listen, and follow us onInstagram, TikTok, and YouTube.
Until next week, happy reading!
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