June 11, 2025 • 27 mins
In this special episode of the Historical Romance Sampler podcast, Olivia Waite joins to discuss the issue of book bans in the United States and their implications for romance readers. Olivia, a queer historical romance author and romance fiction columnist for the New York Times Book Review, shares her insights on how these bans target predominantly queer and BIPOC stories. The episode also explores historical perspectives on censorship and highlights current opportunities for activism. To top it off, Olivia recommends several historical romance books that deal with themes of resistance and political change.
00:00 Introduction and Special Guest Olivia Waite
01:37 Understanding Book Bans in the US
07:01 The Impact of Book Bans on Romance Readers
11:07 Historical Context of Book Bans
13:28 Historical Romance Recommendations
20:05 Modern Activism and How to Get Involved
25:53 Olivia Waite's Current Projects
27:30 Conclusion and Farewell
Find out more about Olivia Waite at https://www.oliviawaite.com/
Get involved in fighting book bans in your community! Check out Every Library (https://www.everylibrary.org/) or American Library Association (https://www.ala.org/bbooks) for more resources.
Find out more about your host Katherine Grant:
Instagram (@katherine_grant_romance)
TikTok (@katherinegrantromance)
Facebook (@Katherinegrantromanceauthor)
Goodreads (https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/19872840.Katherine_Grant)
Bookbub (https://www.bookbub.com/authors/katherine-grant)
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TikTok (@historicalromancesampler)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome
to the Historical Romance Sampler podcast.
I have a special episode today.
I am joined by Olivia Waite totalk about book bans and why
romance readers should care.
Olivia writes queer historical romance,fantasy science fiction and essays, and
she's also the romance fiction columnistfor the New York Times Book Review.
(00:28):
Since she and I are both members of theAuthors Against Book Bans organization,
she graciously agreed to join me todayto talk about what book bans are, how
they're happening in the United States,and why romance readers should care.
So Olivia, thank youso much for coming on.
Oh no, it's exciting.
I'm always happy to talk aboutbook banning and the right to read.
(00:52):
Yes.
And I just wanna preface that we aregonna be talking in the context of
the United States 'cause we're both inthe US, Authors against book bans is
focusing on the US, and I don't knowmuch about the international sphere
but I think international listeners,you might learn something about
how, what's happening in the US and
so that you know what tolook for in your community.
(01:13):
And so I invite you intothe conversation as well.
And a lot of this is going to go intoa historical, I have some snippets
of like historical perspective.
'cause one of the things that I'vebeen writing about and other historical
romance authors have been writingabout is historically limitations
on reading and printing in Britain.
So, mm-hmm.
I love that.
Okay.
Now I'm really, my nerd is excited too.
(01:37):
So let's start by defining book bans.
In terms of our conversation andgenerally in terms of authors
against book bans, how do you thinkabout the definition of book bans?
Well, more specifically, like rightnow in America, when we, when we say
book bans, we mean removing booksfrom public and school libraries.
And it's mostly.
(01:59):
The line is that it's protecting children.
And of course that's just,you know, a good sales pitch.
It's not what they're actually doing.
Let me go briefly through thegeneral process of getting a book
into a public or school library.
You have a librarian.
They're not just sending a box ora cart down to the local bookstore,
filling it up and bringing it in.
(02:19):
It's a very involved processwith several stages of vetting.
They usually look up the title online.
They check the Libraryof Congress categories.
They check trade reviews from paidprofessionals, like not me personally,
but people very much like me, who publishreviews in places like Library Journal
and book List, and Kikis specifically forlibrarians and school librarians to use
(02:41):
in evaluating books that are coming out.
So.
Those will get either starred reviewsor very specific descriptions.
A lot of times librarians willget advanced copies, so they've
read these books themselves.
They will check patronrequests from the community.
So usually if they're buying abook, there's at least one person in
the community who's asking for it.
(03:02):
So by the time a book is on theshelf at a school or public library,
it's been evaluated several timesover for its quality, its value,
and its youth use to the community.
So when you pull that book assomebody from outside that system,
you are claiming that your fearof whatever identity is in that.
Because as we see these book bansoverwhelmingly target queer and bipoc
(03:26):
authors and writers and characters, so.
You are asserting an authority andan expertise that you do not have.
You are saying your fear of otherkinds of people is greater than
these many layers of expertise thata librarian has been trained to use.
Right.
Because most librarians havemaster's degrees, so they are
highly educated to begin withbefore starting that whole system.
(03:50):
Exactly.
72% of current book bans in theUnited States are being initiated by
organized groups and elected officials.
These are not people with expertise.
These are people who are grandstandingto make a political push.
They are not an overwhelmingmajority of your community.
They are people like Moms for Liberty,and that one Florida dad who issued 200
(04:12):
requests for materials to be pulled.
Right.
They are not representative but theyare trying to eliminate this work from
the community rather than say, oh, Idon't want my child to read that book.
And
Exactly.
They're not just keep it within
their house.
They're not just saying, well,my, I have the right to say what
(04:32):
my child reads, which let's noteven get into that as a concept.
Speaking as somebody who was akid who read everything, right?
Like, kids deserve to readwhat kids want to read.
That's right, I believe.
But anyways, that's a whole, we coulddo 30 minutes just on that issue alone.
So they're not only, they're not onlytrying to parent their own children.
(04:52):
They're trying to parent everybody'schildren, is what it's coming down to.
I'm gonna give you a recent example.
Two things to take away from thisabout book bans in the United
States are, one, they are organized,and two, they tend to lie.
Recently the Supreme Court was hearingarguments in Mahmoud v Taylor about
(05:12):
pulling in a children's book from a publiclibrary shelf and sitting Supreme Court.
Justice Neil Gorsuch describedsome of the illustrations in
this picture book as having BDSMelements and depicting a sex worker.
And this is not at all true.
If you go to the actual book, what's onthe page is somebody's holding a sign with
(05:35):
a cartoon portrait of Marsha p Johnson.
Doesn't say who she is,doesn't say what she does.
Just a memorial cartoon doodle.
And the BDSM elements are on one page.
Somebody's wearing a leather jacketwith spikes on the shoulders.
Wow.
And so he knows it's ridiculousif he says, but somebody's
wearing a leather jacket.
(05:56):
We must ban this book.
He knows that makes thisargument look absurd.
And so what he says is hecouches it in this language.
So when you see book banners object tosexual content, hardcore pornography in
schools divisive elements, what they meanis they're trying to stop queer people
and black and brown and people of color.
(06:19):
From existing in public as people, right.
Which is a reason enough towanna say, Hey, let's stop this.
And we are all readers in our communities.
I will admit that as recently aslast year, 2024, I kind of was
like, well, I don't have kids.
I'm not in school systems.
(06:39):
Like this is bad, but it'snot really my problem.
Mm-hmm.
Then more recently as an author, Ihave been paying a lot of attention
to it, but a question I'd love to askis for romance readers who are reading
adult titles from public libraries,or not even from public libraries,
from Kindle Unlimited, from wherever.
(07:01):
Does this affect us?
Absolutely.
It affects us immediately and itaffects us even worse down the road.
One of the first things that happenswhen you designate certain types of
people as dangerous to children, and wesaw this back in the nineties when there
were all the arguments about should weallow gay people to teach in schools?
If you designate a class of peopleas inherently dangerous to children,
(07:24):
then it is very easy to make ita crime for those people to be in
public or around children at all.
And then you have broadcriminalization against an entire
group of people, and that's badfor all of us adults on the whole.
So you'll see things like teachersgetting fired or criminally
charged for having a book aboutRuby Bridges on the school shelf.
(07:46):
And we've already seen some challengeslike that in some of the states
that have been pushing book bans.
You also have the considerationthat social media and algorithms and
retailers like Amazon are going tobe paying attention to these legal
maneuvers, and they're going to startto ban some of the books that you
are enjoying as an adult on your own.
(08:07):
They're gonna say, well,it's not worth being sued.
If we're carrying explicitsexual content for grownups.
It's not worth being sued forcarrying queer or trans content.
If they start to use child pornographylaws to go against trans romance on the
internet, then all of us romance adultauthors are going to be impacted even
if we don't have kids and aren't gettingbooks from school and public libraries.
(08:29):
So this is an old, old pattern.
There's nothing new here.
We've seen this before.
We've seen this in the nineties.
We've seen this in, you know,Regency in Victoria and Britain.
So.
It's a very familiar pattern at thispoint, and it's important to recognize
that it's happening and to do what youcan to stop it in your own community.
(08:49):
Yeah.
Now, the good news is that there'sa lot of ways to get involved,
and there's a lot of ways to help.
Your local library probably has afriends organization you could join,
local school boards have open meetingswhere you can stand in support of
your community and in support of thechildren who deserve access to books
about the issues that concern them.
Kelly Jensen at Book Riot has beentracking book bans in all 50 states,
(09:12):
and she's always got pieces coming out,explaining what's happening in your
local area and how you can get involved.
You can join Authors Against Book Bansif you're an author or illustrator.
I feel like ALA is doingsome legislation tracking.
They've also got social media graphicsyou can download for free and share on
your like local networks to get peoplemore informed about what's happening.
(09:35):
Yeah, yeah.
And one of the things, I was justlooking at the ALA website, and they
just recently in April released theiranalysis of what was happening in 2024.
Yeah.
And one that surprised me was that 55%of the book challenges, the majority
of the book challenges that theytracked, were in public libraries,
(09:57):
and only 38% were in school libraries.
Mm-hmm.
And we've seen in places likeIdaho, that there are legislation
where, you know, if a book ischallenged and deemed inappropriate,
it has to be put in a completelydifferent room than the other books.
(10:19):
Yes.
But most of these libraries are so small.
One room buildings.
That means they either have to completelyeliminate their adult collection of books.
Mm-hmm.
Or shut down.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And so it is, it's, it'san eliminationist stance.
It's soft censorship.
It's discouraging purchases that they knoware going to be too difficult for them
to maintain and impossible in some cases.
(10:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so it puts at risk the generalpublic library in addition to
what the children can read.
Exactly.
And public libraries have been ahuge good in American culture at
large, and anything we can do todefend them is going to benefit all
of us, either now or in the future.
Yes.
(11:02):
Now.
I'm excited about historical facts.
Tell me, tell me about thehistorical context that you'd
like to bring to the conversation.
So, when I was writing The Care andFeeding of Waspish Widows, which is set
in 1820, which is this big year of massprotest in Britain and a lot of the people
protesting weren't even eligible to vote.
(11:22):
It was a lot of women, and it was alot of lower class people who just
had strong feelings about politicalstructures and events and wanted to make
those opinions known however they could.
This was just after the Peterloomassacre, so people protesting for
working conditions and the rightsof the lower classes had been
literally shot by the militia and,there was a lot of restrictions and
(11:44):
limitations on what people couldand could not print, and could, and
could not buy and sell and read.
This is when you had booksellerslike Robert Carlisle actually
going to prison for printingseditious material, criticizing the
political institutions of the time.
You would have militia people sentin to literally wreck up bookshops
(12:04):
and look for, you know, radicalpolitical materials and illegal things.
You had taxes on the price ofpaper that meant a lot of small
pamphleteers were just immediatelyput out of business 'cause they
couldn't afford to pay to print thematerials that they'd been printing.
Which is the same kind of softcensorship we're seeing with
library purchases right now.
(12:25):
And there's actually a lot ofhistorical romances that, that happen
around these particular restrictions.
We like to think that the modern day isalways more progressive than the past, but
it's really wild to go back into some ofthis history and see, one of the things
they didn't want people printing wastracts about, about universal suffrage.
So everybody should get a votethat was considered very scandalous
(12:47):
and left wing and radical.
And women shouldn't get the vote.
And free love, whichhappened in the Regency.
There were multiple people arguingthat we should do away with all
sexual stigma and people should beable to sleep with whoever they want.
And the government was clampingdown on that as obscene.
And you know, if they'd used thephrase hardcore pornography at
the time, they would've absolutelybeen putting it on those books.
(13:09):
And so you have a lot of resistancethat has to exist kind of on
the margins of the legal system.
And it's really fascinating andit's a really, it's a really good
draw for romance because there'sso much tension and there's so much
just story possibility around this.
So Care and feeding of Waspish widowsis all about a printer and a printer
(13:33):
in engraver who meets a beekeeper.
And it's all about politicalchange in this one small town
where the beekeeper lives.
And so it's this veryfriends to lover as well.
These big protests are happeningand what effects they have on the
lives of the people in this one town.
So it's not just who's in charge atthe parliament level or the royalty
(13:53):
level, it's what are we doing in ourlocal communities who's trying to
change things, who's attacking theirneighbors, et cetera, et cetera.
You've also got Annick Trent'sSixpenny Octavo which is a sapphic
historical romance about a seditiousreading club in a pub in London.
And so you have this housemate whosefriend has been arrested as part
of this crackdown on this politicalreading club that happens in a tavern.
(14:18):
And in order to exonerate herfriend, she needs testimony from
another woman and they end up slowlyfalling in love in light of this
complex political sphere whereit's literally illegal to be caught
reading some of these materials.
Yeah.
For all that, it's, it's a wonderfullydread free romance, so it's really, it's
really on the ground kind of stakes.
It's working class regency andit's charming as all get out.
(14:42):
It's absolutely wonderful.
Rose Lerner's Lively St. Lemestonseries starts with a newspaper man's
widow who starts up the press againand the son of a local political
family who starts writing with her.
He's got an injury fromWaterloo, he's got some trauma.
His mom is causing political troublein the town and that's wonderful and
that kicks off her whole small townregency politics series, which is great.
(15:05):
For other queer romances, you've got KJCharles's unfit to print and Will Darling
Adventures where he runs a bookshop withsome illicit material in, I wanna say the
1920s with spies and his like dealing withhis experiences from the war and the shady
spy he falls in love with over the courseof three very complicated murderous books.
(15:29):
On the American side of things, we'vegot Alyssa Cole's, a Hope Divided,
which is the second in her Civil War spytrilogy about black spies who are spying
for the union during the Civil War.
And this one is a black herbalist ina slave state, and she's hiding an
escaped union soldier in the attic.
And because they can't be overheard,they start writing letters back
(15:50):
and forth to one another anddiscussing like, philosophical books.
And it's, it's just so beautiful.
They're slip, so they're sitting juston other side of the wall slipping
notes to one another so they cancommunicate and it's just gorgeous.
Yeah.
I think that was my first AlyssaCole book and I was like, oh, wow.
(16:10):
It's so good.
That whole trilogy just floors me.
Yes.
Like, yes.
And the last one is also newspaper based.
And it's Courtney.
Oh, now I say that and then I forgot theactual title, but it's the Courtney Milan
Suffragette Scandals.
That's a really good one.
One of the reasons why I lovethe suffragette scandal is
because it's, it's more hopeful.
(16:33):
It's not just about the embattlednature, it's about hope being
a muscle that you exercise.
There's a really great metaphorfor, for small, small scale,
achievable protest in there.
That's really, I find it very refreshingand it gives me, I dunno, it's like,
it's like a little warm hug you cancarry around with you, that book.
(16:57):
You know, Jane Fonda said at theSAG awards this year, if you've ever
watched a documentary and wonderedwhat you would do, this is your moment.
Yeah, and I feel that way a lot withhistorical romance where, you know,
I write historical romance that ispretty progressive and I certainly read
a lot of historical romance that isprogressive and always these characters
(17:19):
seem to have more courage and face biggerobstacles than I've ever had to face.
Yeah.
But.
I think that's one of the roles of fictionis to put you in a heightened position.
I hope not to have to face somethinglike hiding in an attic, right?
But, for all the historical romancereaders out there who love that type of
story, I invite you to think about howcan I, how can you pull inspiration from
(17:45):
these characters or from the real lifehistorical people like Richard Carlisle.
I read his memoirs, if you can callthem, that his, his daughter published
his like journals and letters.
Letters, his diariesand, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I read that just at the start of thisyear and like he was cheerfully going to
prison for printing seditious materialsand he was like, yeah, and these books
(18:06):
and when I get out I'm gonna print again.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
And he was writing to writing tothe women who were keeping the
bookshop open in his absence.
And yeah, there was a whole thing.
Yeah, he was like, thisisn't shutting me down.
This is funny.
I'm gonna keep going.
And so I've been tryingto think about that.
When I feel discouraged, I'mlike, but Richard Carlisle was in
prison and he wasn't discouraged.
(18:27):
So.
Even like, there's so manystories about this kind of thing.
Like if you look at things like theFrench resistance there's I mean there's
so many hideous stories outta theFrench resistance, but there's also.
Mary Burchell, a romanceauthor who wrote Harlequins.
She wrote wonderful sweetlittle Harlequins about the
fashion industry in Paris.
(18:47):
And one of the things she did with hermoney was she and her sister, who were
big opera fans, they would travel toGermany in the 1930s and they would
accept, they would be put into contactwith various Jewish families and they
would accept, you know, things likejewelry and small treasures and movables.
And they were posing as, "well we'rethese wealthy british Opera fans who
(19:09):
don't trust the servants, so we carryall our jewelry with us." And so they
wouldn't get searched at the borderand they would take all these valuables
back to England, meet up with thefamilies who weren't permitted to take
anything of value out of the countryand give them back to the families.
So they had like both heirloomsand something valuable to start
with in a new life in exile.
(19:30):
So then it made it possible for peopleto leave Germany who wouldn't otherwise
have gotten out, and she saved likea thousand people's lives doing this.
Wow.
There was a Polish Countess well, shewasn't a Countess, that's the whole point.
She was there was a Polishmathematician when the Nazis took over.
She forged identity documentsimposed as Countess to help save
(19:52):
the lives of people in the camps.
And there's just so manydifferent opportunities.
And it doesn't all have to be big,flashy, showy, like, let's make
believe I'm a Countess stuff, althoughthat is the fun stuff to read about.
Yeah.
But it's things like supportinga book at your local library.
It's things like showingup to an author event.
It's things like letting yourneighbors know where you stand,
(20:16):
and it's letting, letting thepeople in your community know that.
That you support the existence of peoplewho are different and it's, it's very
practical and it's on the ground andyou can do a lot right where you are.
It's standing up at a local libraryand telling your neighbors this
book deserves to be on this shelf.
Yes, absolutely.
And that moment when you first startspeaking up can feel very scary.
(20:39):
Yes.
And that's where you can draw courage fromthese larger than life stories and say,
well, I'm gonna learn how to speak up.
I think if you are listening tothis podcast, you're a reader
and I think any reader can relateto wanting to read something.
Yes.
And it who, who's gonnatell you not to read it?
Like that's so unfair.
(21:00):
Everyone should be able toread what they want to read.
I. Yeah.
And like if you, if you haven'tbeen to a protest, go to a protest,
meet some people wave a sign.
It's very easy.
You can stay just for an hour if you want.
It's very pleasant whenthe weather's nice.
Yes.
You could organize a read-in somewhereat a local park or at a library
where everybody brings a book andjust sits in silence and reads.
(21:23):
Like, there's so many different options.
You could plan a protest partyand have a great time dancing.
Like it doesn't have to bedour angry, marching, and,
and, and violence and threats.
That's not what it's about.
You can stand the side of the roadwith a sign and ask people to honk if
they support, you know queer books.
Right.
Or you can go, people will talk
and it's great.
(21:44):
Yeah.
And you can, you can writeletters to your school board.
You can write lettersto your library board,
letters to the editorof your local newspaper.
That's a big thing.
Yes.
Yeah.
So for authors, you are more thanwelcome to join authors against
book bans, authors and illustrators.
For readers, there are a lotof different organizations.
One that I recommend is every library.
(22:05):
Yes.
They're very focused on supporting localorganizations, so they will let you know
if something's going on in your community.
Mm-hmm.
And they also share their wins,which I have really loved.
In this year alone, we have seen a lot ofscary ban legislation go up in different
states, and we've also seen it get shutdown because readers and community members
(22:25):
have said, no, that's not acceptable.
That's not what we want.
Yeah.
If you follow authors against bookbans, even if you're not an author, if
you follow authors against book bans onInstagram, blue Sky... a lot of those
social medias will have location specificand state specific information, so when
there's action, then you can you canlike find a short little script and a
(22:46):
guide for what to do, and it makes itreally easy and it makes it low key.
And you don't have to, you don'thave to sit here and feel bad
about things as a form of activism.
You can, you make a phone call to asenator to support your public libraries.
You make a phone call toyour local representative.
You send a letter to your locallibrary, and then great, you've
done your protest for the day.
And you can go and sit in thegarden and read say a KJ Charles
(23:08):
books about an obscene bookstore.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Are there any other points about book bansthat you wanted to make before we wrap up?
One of the other things that I wannasay is buy and print when you can.
Mm-hmm.
One of the things that we know iswhen books are starting to get banned.
(23:33):
It's easiest to go after theelectronic editions and to
pull things from, from access.
That's the easiest way topull the plug on those.
But they're not gonna come into everyhouse and take every print copy unless
things get much, much worse than they are.
Buying in print is the bestway to support authors.
It's the best way to support libraries.
Well, and, and publishersand just do what you can.
(23:54):
And if you can't afford to buy allthe books you want, because who of us
can then you can spread the word onsocial media, post about what you're
reading, what you're enjoying about it.
Support your library events . If yourlibrary is doing a drag story hour,
absolutely show up to support them there.
Check out local queer authors speakingin various bookstores around town.
Just go sit in the audienceand hear a book talk.
(24:17):
Yes.
Yeah.
And the more you read, the moreyou know, you know, so Exactly.
Try picking up those bannedbooks if you hear that they're
banned and see what you learn.
What, yeah.
What are they afraid of youlearning from these books?
Yeah.
'cause they, they're not doingthis because we have no power,
is the thing to remember.
They're doing this because it's powerful.
(24:38):
They're doing this because whatthese books have to say is important
and meaningful and honestly fun.
Yeah, a lot of these books, like theSupreme Court book that I cited earlier
was called Pride Puppy, and it's adorable.
It's about a dog who gets lost at apride parade and they have to find him.
And it's just, it's so cute.
And it's so sweet.
(24:59):
And everybody's in theirbest, like pride costumes.
There's a lovely drag queen whohelps the puppy puppy and it's
just, it's just darling and joyous.
Yeah.
And you look at it and what's,what are they afraid of?
Joy?
Why does Joy scare them so much?
Yes.
Yeah.
(25:20):
Well, Olivia, thank you so much forcoming on and talking about book bans,
why romance readers should care, andfor all the book recommendations.
I'm gonna, you know, collect allof those and I'll put them in
the show notes and also probablyin a little Instagram carousel.
So listeners, don't worry,you'll find those book recs.
Besides The Care andFeeding of Waspish Widows.
(25:45):
Mm-hmm.
Besides that, are there any booksor projects or anything you'd
like us to check out of yours?
Well, currently my big projectis a sci-fi sic mystery series.
Ooh.
So, yes, and there is it,there is a library angle.
The library is where all of the books arestored, that you place all your memories
(26:06):
in between bodies on this spaceship.
It's very fun.
So it's this big 1920s style cruise shipin space, and your memories are stored
in the library, and then every time yourbody runs out, you're issued a new one
and they put your memories right in.
So you just kind of keep going on thisthousand year journey across the stars.
(26:26):
And ship's detective, Dorothy Gentlemen,has been taking a bit of a break.
She had a bad breakup.
It was a little bit traumatic, and so nowshe's just been resting in the library
until she wakes up in a body that's nothers, just as a murder's been committed.
Ooh.
And so she has to figure outwhat's happening and why, and
is somebody killing people?
(26:46):
And it's one thing to kill a body becausethat's not a big deal on this ship.
But then she finds somebody who'sbeen erasing books from the library.
Oh gosh.
Which is much more serious.
Yeah.
Well that sounds fantastic.
Yeah, that first one is called Murderby Memory, and that's just out.
And the second one is calledNobody's Baby, and that's up for
pre-order coming out this spring.
(27:07):
Ooh, that's so exciting.
It's been really fun towrite and I'm so excited.
Well, thank you again and I'll alsoput a link to your website and I'll be
tagging you on Instagram, so readers.
Listeners can find you and your books.
That sounds wonderful.
Thank you so much for this.
(27:27):
Thank you.
That's it for this week!
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Until next week, happy reading!
Welcome
to the Historical Romance Sampler podcast.
I have a special episode today.
I am joined by Olivia Waite totalk about book bans and why
romance readers should care.
Olivia writes queer historical romance,fantasy science fiction and essays, and
she's also the romance fiction columnistfor the New York Times Book Review.
(00:28):
Since she and I are both members of theAuthors Against Book Bans organization,
she graciously agreed to join me todayto talk about what book bans are, how
they're happening in the United States,and why romance readers should care.
So Olivia, thank youso much for coming on.
Oh no, it's exciting.
I'm always happy to talk aboutbook banning and the right to read.
(00:52):
Yes.
And I just wanna preface that we aregonna be talking in the context of
the United States 'cause we're both inthe US, Authors against book bans is
focusing on the US, and I don't knowmuch about the international sphere
but I think international listeners,you might learn something about
how, what's happening in the US and
so that you know what tolook for in your community.
(01:13):
And so I invite you intothe conversation as well.
And a lot of this is going to go intoa historical, I have some snippets
of like historical perspective.
'cause one of the things that I'vebeen writing about and other historical
romance authors have been writingabout is historically limitations
on reading and printing in Britain.
So, mm-hmm.
I love that.
Okay.
Now I'm really, my nerd is excited too.
(01:37):
So let's start by defining book bans.
In terms of our conversation andgenerally in terms of authors
against book bans, how do you thinkabout the definition of book bans?
Well, more specifically, like rightnow in America, when we, when we say
book bans, we mean removing booksfrom public and school libraries.
And it's mostly.
(01:59):
The line is that it's protecting children.
And of course that's just,you know, a good sales pitch.
It's not what they're actually doing.
Let me go briefly through thegeneral process of getting a book
into a public or school library.
You have a librarian.
They're not just sending a box ora cart down to the local bookstore,
filling it up and bringing it in.
(02:19):
It's a very involved processwith several stages of vetting.
They usually look up the title online.
They check the Libraryof Congress categories.
They check trade reviews from paidprofessionals, like not me personally,
but people very much like me, who publishreviews in places like Library Journal
and book List, and Kikis specifically forlibrarians and school librarians to use
(02:41):
in evaluating books that are coming out.
So.
Those will get either starred reviewsor very specific descriptions.
A lot of times librarians willget advanced copies, so they've
read these books themselves.
They will check patronrequests from the community.
So usually if they're buying abook, there's at least one person in
the community who's asking for it.
(03:02):
So by the time a book is on theshelf at a school or public library,
it's been evaluated several timesover for its quality, its value,
and its youth use to the community.
So when you pull that book assomebody from outside that system,
you are claiming that your fearof whatever identity is in that.
Because as we see these book bansoverwhelmingly target queer and bipoc
(03:26):
authors and writers and characters, so.
You are asserting an authority andan expertise that you do not have.
You are saying your fear of otherkinds of people is greater than
these many layers of expertise thata librarian has been trained to use.
Right.
Because most librarians havemaster's degrees, so they are
highly educated to begin withbefore starting that whole system.
(03:50):
Exactly.
72% of current book bans in theUnited States are being initiated by
organized groups and elected officials.
These are not people with expertise.
These are people who are grandstandingto make a political push.
They are not an overwhelmingmajority of your community.
They are people like Moms for Liberty,and that one Florida dad who issued 200
(04:12):
requests for materials to be pulled.
Right.
They are not representative but theyare trying to eliminate this work from
the community rather than say, oh, Idon't want my child to read that book.
And
Exactly.
They're not just keep it within
their house.
They're not just saying, well,my, I have the right to say what
(04:32):
my child reads, which let's noteven get into that as a concept.
Speaking as somebody who was akid who read everything, right?
Like, kids deserve to readwhat kids want to read.
That's right, I believe.
But anyways, that's a whole, we coulddo 30 minutes just on that issue alone.
So they're not only, they're not onlytrying to parent their own children.
(04:52):
They're trying to parent everybody'schildren, is what it's coming down to.
I'm gonna give you a recent example.
Two things to take away from thisabout book bans in the United
States are, one, they are organized,and two, they tend to lie.
Recently the Supreme Court was hearingarguments in Mahmoud v Taylor about
(05:12):
pulling in a children's book from a publiclibrary shelf and sitting Supreme Court.
Justice Neil Gorsuch describedsome of the illustrations in
this picture book as having BDSMelements and depicting a sex worker.
And this is not at all true.
If you go to the actual book, what's onthe page is somebody's holding a sign with
(05:35):
a cartoon portrait of Marsha p Johnson.
Doesn't say who she is,doesn't say what she does.
Just a memorial cartoon doodle.
And the BDSM elements are on one page.
Somebody's wearing a leather jacketwith spikes on the shoulders.
Wow.
And so he knows it's ridiculousif he says, but somebody's
wearing a leather jacket.
(05:56):
We must ban this book.
He knows that makes thisargument look absurd.
And so what he says is hecouches it in this language.
So when you see book banners object tosexual content, hardcore pornography in
schools divisive elements, what they meanis they're trying to stop queer people
and black and brown and people of color.
(06:19):
From existing in public as people, right.
Which is a reason enough towanna say, Hey, let's stop this.
And we are all readers in our communities.
I will admit that as recently aslast year, 2024, I kind of was
like, well, I don't have kids.
I'm not in school systems.
(06:39):
Like this is bad, but it'snot really my problem.
Mm-hmm.
Then more recently as an author, Ihave been paying a lot of attention
to it, but a question I'd love to askis for romance readers who are reading
adult titles from public libraries,or not even from public libraries,
from Kindle Unlimited, from wherever.
(07:01):
Does this affect us?
Absolutely.
It affects us immediately and itaffects us even worse down the road.
One of the first things that happenswhen you designate certain types of
people as dangerous to children, and wesaw this back in the nineties when there
were all the arguments about should weallow gay people to teach in schools?
If you designate a class of peopleas inherently dangerous to children,
(07:24):
then it is very easy to make ita crime for those people to be in
public or around children at all.
And then you have broadcriminalization against an entire
group of people, and that's badfor all of us adults on the whole.
So you'll see things like teachersgetting fired or criminally
charged for having a book aboutRuby Bridges on the school shelf.
(07:46):
And we've already seen some challengeslike that in some of the states
that have been pushing book bans.
You also have the considerationthat social media and algorithms and
retailers like Amazon are going tobe paying attention to these legal
maneuvers, and they're going to startto ban some of the books that you
are enjoying as an adult on your own.
(08:07):
They're gonna say, well,it's not worth being sued.
If we're carrying explicitsexual content for grownups.
It's not worth being sued forcarrying queer or trans content.
If they start to use child pornographylaws to go against trans romance on the
internet, then all of us romance adultauthors are going to be impacted even
if we don't have kids and aren't gettingbooks from school and public libraries.
(08:29):
So this is an old, old pattern.
There's nothing new here.
We've seen this before.
We've seen this in the nineties.
We've seen this in, you know,Regency in Victoria and Britain.
So.
It's a very familiar pattern at thispoint, and it's important to recognize
that it's happening and to do what youcan to stop it in your own community.
(08:49):
Yeah.
Now, the good news is that there'sa lot of ways to get involved,
and there's a lot of ways to help.
Your local library probably has afriends organization you could join,
local school boards have open meetingswhere you can stand in support of
your community and in support of thechildren who deserve access to books
about the issues that concern them.
Kelly Jensen at Book Riot has beentracking book bans in all 50 states,
(09:12):
and she's always got pieces coming out,explaining what's happening in your
local area and how you can get involved.
You can join Authors Against Book Bansif you're an author or illustrator.
I feel like ALA is doingsome legislation tracking.
They've also got social media graphicsyou can download for free and share on
your like local networks to get peoplemore informed about what's happening.
(09:35):
Yeah, yeah.
And one of the things, I was justlooking at the ALA website, and they
just recently in April released theiranalysis of what was happening in 2024.
Yeah.
And one that surprised me was that 55%of the book challenges, the majority
of the book challenges that theytracked, were in public libraries,
(09:57):
and only 38% were in school libraries.
Mm-hmm.
And we've seen in places likeIdaho, that there are legislation
where, you know, if a book ischallenged and deemed inappropriate,
it has to be put in a completelydifferent room than the other books.
(10:19):
Yes.
But most of these libraries are so small.
One room buildings.
That means they either have to completelyeliminate their adult collection of books.
Mm-hmm.
Or shut down.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And so it is, it's, it'san eliminationist stance.
It's soft censorship.
It's discouraging purchases that they knoware going to be too difficult for them
to maintain and impossible in some cases.
(10:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so it puts at risk the generalpublic library in addition to
what the children can read.
Exactly.
And public libraries have been ahuge good in American culture at
large, and anything we can do todefend them is going to benefit all
of us, either now or in the future.
Yes.
(11:02):
Now.
I'm excited about historical facts.
Tell me, tell me about thehistorical context that you'd
like to bring to the conversation.
So, when I was writing The Care andFeeding of Waspish Widows, which is set
in 1820, which is this big year of massprotest in Britain and a lot of the people
protesting weren't even eligible to vote.
(11:22):
It was a lot of women, and it was alot of lower class people who just
had strong feelings about politicalstructures and events and wanted to make
those opinions known however they could.
This was just after the Peterloomassacre, so people protesting for
working conditions and the rightsof the lower classes had been
literally shot by the militia and,there was a lot of restrictions and
(11:44):
limitations on what people couldand could not print, and could, and
could not buy and sell and read.
This is when you had booksellerslike Robert Carlisle actually
going to prison for printingseditious material, criticizing the
political institutions of the time.
You would have militia people sentin to literally wreck up bookshops
(12:04):
and look for, you know, radicalpolitical materials and illegal things.
You had taxes on the price ofpaper that meant a lot of small
pamphleteers were just immediatelyput out of business 'cause they
couldn't afford to pay to print thematerials that they'd been printing.
Which is the same kind of softcensorship we're seeing with
library purchases right now.
(12:25):
And there's actually a lot ofhistorical romances that, that happen
around these particular restrictions.
We like to think that the modern day isalways more progressive than the past, but
it's really wild to go back into some ofthis history and see, one of the things
they didn't want people printing wastracts about, about universal suffrage.
So everybody should get a votethat was considered very scandalous
(12:47):
and left wing and radical.
And women shouldn't get the vote.
And free love, whichhappened in the Regency.
There were multiple people arguingthat we should do away with all
sexual stigma and people should beable to sleep with whoever they want.
And the government was clampingdown on that as obscene.
And you know, if they'd used thephrase hardcore pornography at
the time, they would've absolutelybeen putting it on those books.
(13:09):
And so you have a lot of resistancethat has to exist kind of on
the margins of the legal system.
And it's really fascinating andit's a really, it's a really good
draw for romance because there'sso much tension and there's so much
just story possibility around this.
So Care and feeding of Waspish widowsis all about a printer and a printer
(13:33):
in engraver who meets a beekeeper.
And it's all about politicalchange in this one small town
where the beekeeper lives.
And so it's this veryfriends to lover as well.
These big protests are happeningand what effects they have on the
lives of the people in this one town.
So it's not just who's in charge atthe parliament level or the royalty
(13:53):
level, it's what are we doing in ourlocal communities who's trying to
change things, who's attacking theirneighbors, et cetera, et cetera.
You've also got Annick Trent'sSixpenny Octavo which is a sapphic
historical romance about a seditiousreading club in a pub in London.
And so you have this housemate whosefriend has been arrested as part
of this crackdown on this politicalreading club that happens in a tavern.
(14:18):
And in order to exonerate herfriend, she needs testimony from
another woman and they end up slowlyfalling in love in light of this
complex political sphere whereit's literally illegal to be caught
reading some of these materials.
Yeah.
For all that, it's, it's a wonderfullydread free romance, so it's really, it's
really on the ground kind of stakes.
It's working class regency andit's charming as all get out.
(14:42):
It's absolutely wonderful.
Rose Lerner's Lively St. Lemestonseries starts with a newspaper man's
widow who starts up the press againand the son of a local political
family who starts writing with her.
He's got an injury fromWaterloo, he's got some trauma.
His mom is causing political troublein the town and that's wonderful and
that kicks off her whole small townregency politics series, which is great.
(15:05):
For other queer romances, you've got KJCharles's unfit to print and Will Darling
Adventures where he runs a bookshop withsome illicit material in, I wanna say the
1920s with spies and his like dealing withhis experiences from the war and the shady
spy he falls in love with over the courseof three very complicated murderous books.
(15:29):
On the American side of things, we'vegot Alyssa Cole's, a Hope Divided,
which is the second in her Civil War spytrilogy about black spies who are spying
for the union during the Civil War.
And this one is a black herbalist ina slave state, and she's hiding an
escaped union soldier in the attic.
And because they can't be overheard,they start writing letters back
(15:50):
and forth to one another anddiscussing like, philosophical books.
And it's, it's just so beautiful.
They're slip, so they're sitting juston other side of the wall slipping
notes to one another so they cancommunicate and it's just gorgeous.
Yeah.
I think that was my first AlyssaCole book and I was like, oh, wow.
(16:10):
It's so good.
That whole trilogy just floors me.
Yes.
Like, yes.
And the last one is also newspaper based.
And it's Courtney.
Oh, now I say that and then I forgot theactual title, but it's the Courtney Milan
Suffragette Scandals.
That's a really good one.
One of the reasons why I lovethe suffragette scandal is
because it's, it's more hopeful.
(16:33):
It's not just about the embattlednature, it's about hope being
a muscle that you exercise.
There's a really great metaphorfor, for small, small scale,
achievable protest in there.
That's really, I find it very refreshingand it gives me, I dunno, it's like,
it's like a little warm hug you cancarry around with you, that book.
(16:57):
You know, Jane Fonda said at theSAG awards this year, if you've ever
watched a documentary and wonderedwhat you would do, this is your moment.
Yeah, and I feel that way a lot withhistorical romance where, you know,
I write historical romance that ispretty progressive and I certainly read
a lot of historical romance that isprogressive and always these characters
(17:19):
seem to have more courage and face biggerobstacles than I've ever had to face.
Yeah.
But.
I think that's one of the roles of fictionis to put you in a heightened position.
I hope not to have to face somethinglike hiding in an attic, right?
But, for all the historical romancereaders out there who love that type of
story, I invite you to think about howcan I, how can you pull inspiration from
(17:45):
these characters or from the real lifehistorical people like Richard Carlisle.
I read his memoirs, if you can callthem, that his, his daughter published
his like journals and letters.
Letters, his diariesand, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I read that just at the start of thisyear and like he was cheerfully going to
prison for printing seditious materialsand he was like, yeah, and these books
(18:06):
and when I get out I'm gonna print again.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
And he was writing to writing tothe women who were keeping the
bookshop open in his absence.
And yeah, there was a whole thing.
Yeah, he was like, thisisn't shutting me down.
This is funny.
I'm gonna keep going.
And so I've been tryingto think about that.
When I feel discouraged, I'mlike, but Richard Carlisle was in
prison and he wasn't discouraged.
(18:27):
So.
Even like, there's so manystories about this kind of thing.
Like if you look at things like theFrench resistance there's I mean there's
so many hideous stories outta theFrench resistance, but there's also.
Mary Burchell, a romanceauthor who wrote Harlequins.
She wrote wonderful sweetlittle Harlequins about the
fashion industry in Paris.
(18:47):
And one of the things she did with hermoney was she and her sister, who were
big opera fans, they would travel toGermany in the 1930s and they would
accept, they would be put into contactwith various Jewish families and they
would accept, you know, things likejewelry and small treasures and movables.
And they were posing as, "well we'rethese wealthy british Opera fans who
(19:09):
don't trust the servants, so we carryall our jewelry with us." And so they
wouldn't get searched at the borderand they would take all these valuables
back to England, meet up with thefamilies who weren't permitted to take
anything of value out of the countryand give them back to the families.
So they had like both heirloomsand something valuable to start
with in a new life in exile.
(19:30):
So then it made it possible for peopleto leave Germany who wouldn't otherwise
have gotten out, and she saved likea thousand people's lives doing this.
Wow.
There was a Polish Countess well, shewasn't a Countess, that's the whole point.
She was there was a Polishmathematician when the Nazis took over.
She forged identity documentsimposed as Countess to help save
(19:52):
the lives of people in the camps.
And there's just so manydifferent opportunities.
And it doesn't all have to be big,flashy, showy, like, let's make
believe I'm a Countess stuff, althoughthat is the fun stuff to read about.
Yeah.
But it's things like supportinga book at your local library.
It's things like showingup to an author event.
It's things like letting yourneighbors know where you stand,
(20:16):
and it's letting, letting thepeople in your community know that.
That you support the existence of peoplewho are different and it's, it's very
practical and it's on the ground andyou can do a lot right where you are.
It's standing up at a local libraryand telling your neighbors this
book deserves to be on this shelf.
Yes, absolutely.
And that moment when you first startspeaking up can feel very scary.
(20:39):
Yes.
And that's where you can draw courage fromthese larger than life stories and say,
well, I'm gonna learn how to speak up.
I think if you are listening tothis podcast, you're a reader
and I think any reader can relateto wanting to read something.
Yes.
And it who, who's gonnatell you not to read it?
Like that's so unfair.
(21:00):
Everyone should be able toread what they want to read.
I. Yeah.
And like if you, if you haven'tbeen to a protest, go to a protest,
meet some people wave a sign.
It's very easy.
You can stay just for an hour if you want.
It's very pleasant whenthe weather's nice.
Yes.
You could organize a read-in somewhereat a local park or at a library
where everybody brings a book andjust sits in silence and reads.
(21:23):
Like, there's so many different options.
You could plan a protest partyand have a great time dancing.
Like it doesn't have to bedour angry, marching, and,
and, and violence and threats.
That's not what it's about.
You can stand the side of the roadwith a sign and ask people to honk if
they support, you know queer books.
Right.
Or you can go, people will talk
and it's great.
(21:44):
Yeah.
And you can, you can writeletters to your school board.
You can write lettersto your library board,
letters to the editorof your local newspaper.
That's a big thing.
Yes.
Yeah.
So for authors, you are more thanwelcome to join authors against
book bans, authors and illustrators.
For readers, there are a lotof different organizations.
One that I recommend is every library.
(22:05):
Yes.
They're very focused on supporting localorganizations, so they will let you know
if something's going on in your community.
Mm-hmm.
And they also share their wins,which I have really loved.
In this year alone, we have seen a lot ofscary ban legislation go up in different
states, and we've also seen it get shutdown because readers and community members
(22:25):
have said, no, that's not acceptable.
That's not what we want.
Yeah.
If you follow authors against bookbans, even if you're not an author, if
you follow authors against book bans onInstagram, blue Sky... a lot of those
social medias will have location specificand state specific information, so when
there's action, then you can you canlike find a short little script and a
(22:46):
guide for what to do, and it makes itreally easy and it makes it low key.
And you don't have to, you don'thave to sit here and feel bad
about things as a form of activism.
You can, you make a phone call to asenator to support your public libraries.
You make a phone call toyour local representative.
You send a letter to your locallibrary, and then great, you've
done your protest for the day.
And you can go and sit in thegarden and read say a KJ Charles
(23:08):
books about an obscene bookstore.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Are there any other points about book bansthat you wanted to make before we wrap up?
One of the other things that I wannasay is buy and print when you can.
Mm-hmm.
One of the things that we know iswhen books are starting to get banned.
(23:33):
It's easiest to go after theelectronic editions and to
pull things from, from access.
That's the easiest way topull the plug on those.
But they're not gonna come into everyhouse and take every print copy unless
things get much, much worse than they are.
Buying in print is the bestway to support authors.
It's the best way to support libraries.
Well, and, and publishersand just do what you can.
(23:54):
And if you can't afford to buy allthe books you want, because who of us
can then you can spread the word onsocial media, post about what you're
reading, what you're enjoying about it.
Support your library events . If yourlibrary is doing a drag story hour,
absolutely show up to support them there.
Check out local queer authors speakingin various bookstores around town.
Just go sit in the audienceand hear a book talk.
(24:17):
Yes.
Yeah.
And the more you read, the moreyou know, you know, so Exactly.
Try picking up those bannedbooks if you hear that they're
banned and see what you learn.
What, yeah.
What are they afraid of youlearning from these books?
Yeah.
'cause they, they're not doingthis because we have no power,
is the thing to remember.
They're doing this because it's powerful.
(24:38):
They're doing this because whatthese books have to say is important
and meaningful and honestly fun.
Yeah, a lot of these books, like theSupreme Court book that I cited earlier
was called Pride Puppy, and it's adorable.
It's about a dog who gets lost at apride parade and they have to find him.
And it's just, it's so cute.
And it's so sweet.
(24:59):
And everybody's in theirbest, like pride costumes.
There's a lovely drag queen whohelps the puppy puppy and it's
just, it's just darling and joyous.
Yeah.
And you look at it and what's,what are they afraid of?
Joy?
Why does Joy scare them so much?
Yes.
Yeah.
(25:20):
Well, Olivia, thank you so much forcoming on and talking about book bans,
why romance readers should care, andfor all the book recommendations.
I'm gonna, you know, collect allof those and I'll put them in
the show notes and also probablyin a little Instagram carousel.
So listeners, don't worry,you'll find those book recs.
Besides The Care andFeeding of Waspish Widows.
(25:45):
Mm-hmm.
Besides that, are there any booksor projects or anything you'd
like us to check out of yours?
Well, currently my big projectis a sci-fi sic mystery series.
Ooh.
So, yes, and there is it,there is a library angle.
The library is where all of the books arestored, that you place all your memories
(26:06):
in between bodies on this spaceship.
It's very fun.
So it's this big 1920s style cruise shipin space, and your memories are stored
in the library, and then every time yourbody runs out, you're issued a new one
and they put your memories right in.
So you just kind of keep going on thisthousand year journey across the stars.
(26:26):
And ship's detective, Dorothy Gentlemen,has been taking a bit of a break.
She had a bad breakup.
It was a little bit traumatic, and so nowshe's just been resting in the library
until she wakes up in a body that's nothers, just as a murder's been committed.
Ooh.
And so she has to figure outwhat's happening and why, and
is somebody killing people?
(26:46):
And it's one thing to kill a body becausethat's not a big deal on this ship.
But then she finds somebody who'sbeen erasing books from the library.
Oh gosh.
Which is much more serious.
Yeah.
Well that sounds fantastic.
Yeah, that first one is called Murderby Memory, and that's just out.
And the second one is calledNobody's Baby, and that's up for
pre-order coming out this spring.
(27:07):
Ooh, that's so exciting.
It's been really fun towrite and I'm so excited.
Well, thank you again and I'll alsoput a link to your website and I'll be
tagging you on Instagram, so readers.
Listeners can find you and your books.
That sounds wonderful.
Thank you so much for this.
(27:27):
Thank you.
That's it for this week!
Don't forget to subscribe to theHistorical Romance Sampler wherever
you listen, and follow us onInstagram, TikTok, and YouTube.
Until next week, happy reading!
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