Be You Times Two

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to the Jody Mayberry show. Recently,
Lauren Gagioli launched a new podcast called the digital
entrepreneur toolkit. Lauren is a friend of
the Jodi Mayberry show. Well, she's a friend of Jodi Mayberry too,
but she's been on the show a couple of times, and I was honored to
be one of the first guests on her new show. Lauren

(00:26):
does long form interviews, and it's not often
I get the chance to do an hour long
interview. Going that long allows you to go deep in the corners and
back rooms you just never get into if you stand around on the front
porch and have a conversation. The interview I did with Lauren
goes into topics I normally don't have the time to talk

(00:48):
about and I liked it so much. I asked Lauren if I could
share that interview with you as an episode of the Jody
Mabry show. So we're going to do that. If you stick around to the
end, I really like the final topic that we talk about. It's the
idea of being more of who you are.
You times 2. That's what I call it. So let's listen to

(01:10):
that. I'll come back at the end, and then we'll talk a little
more. So let's get the work with Lauren Gagioli and
the interview I did with her on digital entrepreneur
toolkit.
I wanna hear about your entrepreneurial journey so far
because I sort of with all my friends, I feel like all of us have

(01:33):
these histories of how we got to where we got to, and we often are
talking about things we're facing in the present. But I realized
in coming up with the idea for this show, I was like, I have so
many amazing friends who have had these long journeys in the space,
and I only, like, see the tip of the iceberg. So I really wanna,
like, go back in the way back machine and hear

(01:54):
more about how you ended up where you are today. So you want people
to tell the stories they don't wanna tell, basically. Pretty much. Yeah. I'm
just collecting dirt publicly. That's what's happening. Yeah.
Well, the early days of a entrepreneur, at
least for me, weren't they weren't great, but it was good
because that's how you learn. I think that's how you get the

(02:16):
grit of being entrepreneur that helps you
later. I was a a park ranger and then a marketing director
at a luxury home builder and then had the
the gumption, the misguided enthusiasm
that I can do this on my own. I don't need to have a job
to do this. And I was fortunate enough to negotiate

(02:39):
a contract with the company I was at that I will keep doing
this job. I just won't be your employee anymore.
What precipitated that? Like, what made you think I
should step back from having the security of the job, but still continue to
help the same people? Because you usually hear people stepping out and going a different
direction. Yeah. It's well, I am a middle child,

(03:01):
and we don't like to be told what to do. So I think I
eventually just thought, you know, I can do I have. So what happened?
I got an MBA in the 2 years I worked there. I at
night was going to school to get an MBA. And I think I thought something
drastic would change when I graduated, and nothing did. And
the owner was a great guy. Great guy. I learned so much from him.

(03:24):
And I thought, okay. When I'm done, I'm sure Bob's gonna be so
pleased. And then he said, oh, you graduated. That's good.
Maybe you can pay attention at work now. I thought, Oh, no. Oh,
no. Oh, my. So I'm sure he's joking, right,
Lauren? He's joking. So the I think
that was when I realized, hon, maybe there's maybe I should be just be

(03:46):
doing something else. I was my role at the company had shifted.
I started as a I left from being a park ranger,
took the job there when the owner's son moved
on. And so I was going to took the job to
get trained up to be like the second in command. But
then the sun came back and so I then I took a different role

(04:09):
and was doing all the marketing. So I was the marketing
director, but then the controller left the company
and I have a background in finance. So I was doing the
marketing and also ended up doing payroll and accounts payable
and accounts receivable, which is way more important than marketing because
people have to get paid so that I ended up doing more of that.

(04:31):
And eventually, as our marketing kind of slipped,
just talking to the owner one day, day, he was saying, I would really like
you to get back into doing more of the marketing. And I guess, maybe I
said it before I thought it through, and I said, hey, I could do that.
What if I just left the company? I'll do all the marketing, and I don't
have to be on the payroll. And he took me up on that. And then

(04:52):
I don't have to do the payroll either. Yeah. That's right. I don't have to
do the payroll. So we negotiated a contract that
was decent for the 1st several months. And
then as I finished some projects that were already
underway, and then it moved to hourly, which
was the last hourly work I've ever done. Mhmm. But

(05:14):
after the bigger piece went away, I mean, there were some
rough times because the hourly work I was getting from
them just wasn't enough. So there were months I couldn't
couldn't pay the mortgage and had to figure out what what do I do? What
comes next? So those are the stories no one likes to tell because we all
have our stuff together, Lauren. You should know that by now. Well, you you

(05:35):
do now, but, you know, this is way back in the day. You're learning, so
it's a safe place to share from. Yeah. But I really appreciate
you sharing that so transparently because I do think
this is something that I think a lot of folks who are
just getting started, they're like, what am I doing wrong?
Right? So something like taking hourly work, if you've been in the space a while,

(05:57):
you know, get the retainer or parse out the contract over
months and do payment plans, installments, what have you, these
are things you learn by doing it wrong. Right? Like, you realize the
margins you need to work within. And sometimes it
dries up, and that's a really, really tricky thing
to navigate, but I think it's so important that we hear it so we don't

(06:19):
feel like we're alone and, like, doing it wrong. There are lean months
if you're doing it for yourself as opposed to, you know,
taking that paycheck regardless of how many hours you're working.
Right? You get that fixed amount if you're on salary.
So Well, and that's a trade off. It is a trade
off. And one of the things that you may believe

(06:41):
that is not true, but certainly feels true is
having a job is security. But then
you have one person that decides what happens.
But now I've been fired by clients,
and the next day, everything was okay. I have fired
clients, which you could say is the equivalent of quitting the job.

(07:03):
And the next day, everything was okay. So if you
apply that to a job that feels safe, what happens
if they fire you? Well, the next day, it's not okay. Or what happens
if you fire them and quit the next day is probably not okay.
So that is one thing that I think you need
to realize early on. The other is I said this is the last

(07:25):
hourly work I did, but I did work for them still
6 years after I left under an hourly
agreement. And it was good. I mean, it was good. We had a
great relationship. I knew their work really well. But you
still need to know in the early days, we
don't don't hold up. Have you seen National Lampoon's

(07:47):
Vacation and Christmas Vacation Cousin Eddie? Right. Yeah. And and his
wife said, holding out for a management position. That's right. That
is exactly the point. I don't want anyone
to make the mistake of holding out for a management position when you just
need to early days, you probably just need to scrap and take what you
need to take and do what you need to do. That's how you learn and

(08:08):
that's how you pay the bills. Don't let cousin Eddie be
your be your guiding light. That's right.
He might have a really cool RV if you do that.
Yeah. Yeah. He did have a good RV. He did. He did. And
a sweet hat. Yes. I do have a hat like that. I have a hat
like that. I when I was a park ranger, that's what I would wear in

(08:30):
the winters in Spokane. Oh. That's Yeah. Chile. You need one like
that. Park rangers wear mini hats.
Like entrepreneurs. Oh, there's a good point.
Yes. Yeah. Maybe it was always destined to be then
because, you know, if you started in park rangers as a park ranger, then, you
know, you're already accustomed to it. Well, okay. So

(08:53):
the mini hats of a ranger thing when before being a park ranger as a
financial analyst at a commercial bank, which is as exciting
as it sounds. And I had to give my first interpretive
talk as a park ranger, but I didn't know. I dealt with
spreadsheets all day, so I didn't know what to do. So I
copied Mac Mickelson, who was like the

(09:14):
poster boy for being a park ranger. 6 foot 4,
muscular, looked like Superman. Great
voice. And he had this interpretive talk people love called the mini hats
of a ranger. And he would bring all the hats a park ranger would
wear and then tell the story of the work we do while wearing that
hat. I said, okay, I'll copy Mac. And I did a

(09:36):
talk called Ranger Pants, and I would bring
the different pants. No park Rangers. This was my very first
interpretive talk, and I would hold up the pants and then talk about the
work that we would do. And halfway through my very first
interpretive talk, a 10 year old boy raised his hand, and I could
tell it wasn't going really well. So I was really happy this boy had a

(09:59):
question. And he raised his hand, and I said, yes. What's your question? He said,
can I go now? Yeah. That
was that was a little awkward. You lost the 10 year old.
Yeah. Yeah. So those of us who aren't park rangers, what is
an interpretive talk? It's basically you get up and tell a story and try
to teach people something about the park or nature or

(10:20):
outside or whatever. But it's a very useful And you get to just
come up with it? Yeah. Right. You get to come up with whatever. Most
parks have an interpretive plan, and your talk
should fit into that interpretive plan because we're going
way off topic now, Lauren. But an interpretive plan for I'm learning something
though, and I like it. An interpretive plan for a park

(10:43):
says, these are the stories that we want
to tell at the park. And it could usually, it involves
natural history, cultural history, things like wildlife,
but it's all identified. And then typically, so long
as it fits within the interpretive plan, you come up with whatever you want to
talk about. Ranger pants was probably not in the

(11:06):
interpretive plan. You went off
script. Yes. But interpretation has turned out
to be extremely valuable skill in what
I do. And one of the speeches I give is
about using interpretation in podcasting or in business.
But that talk I've given a few times because outside

(11:27):
of being a park ranger, not many people know of interpretation or
what's involved in it. But, really, it's it's not just in
parks, but you'll you'll see interpretation in parks, in
zoos, and museums. Even a good tour bus driver
understands interpretation. So is it what is the interpretation
piece of it? Because that's such an interesting choice of word.

(11:50):
Like, why is that the the terminology? It's rather than
just telling facts, it's telling
stories in a way that provokes people to do
something. So you want to get them. You don't wanna
just give the facts of this is what happened at this
part or facts about rocks or whatever. If you're in

(12:12):
the audience or I want to tell a story
that provokes you to go do something that you
personally can do. So every listener to
an interpretive talk or a podcast episode should hear
it in their own way and act in their own way.
There are 3 pieces of interpretation. I have since

(12:34):
added a 4th, which I will tell you the 3
pieces are a story. Why it matters to that
person listening and the action that you want them to
take after that's S. W. A. I since added a
p, so it makes the word swap because you want to
swap your enthusiasm to the other person. And also, it's

(12:56):
easier to remember. The interesting thing about the p is when
I first added it, I said it meant preach because then you
give a lot of information. And then I said it's the payoff because then you're
you're telling people what the payoff will be. I've since realized
I should stick closer to the spirit of interpretation. So
now I say the P is for provoke because that's really what what you're

(13:19):
getting people to do. You're telling a story. You're telling why it matters. You're telling
the action you want them to take, and then you're trying to provoke them to
do it. I thought the p was gonna be pants. Pants. It doesn't
really fit, but I assumed I assumed we're going back to
pants. Interesting. So I the thing that I love about this,
Jody, is it you have the financial background. You knew how to

(13:40):
read spreadsheets. You understand the p and l. You get the numbers,
then you go and you learn and maybe don't do so well on the
first iteration of storytelling, but you are
such a gifted storyteller. And then in, like, the next
step when they were dragging you back to sort the
for the financial side by virtue of these changes in this organization,

(14:02):
you're like, no. Like, I have all the pieces I need. I'm stepping out of
this. And just how, like, the little nuggets of what you
learned along the way helped you step into this new role.
Yeah. It is really interesting if if you have read the
book, The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks. He talks about how you
can yeah. You can be really good at something, but that's not what

(14:25):
you're at the moment. I'm forgetting the terms that he uses, but I'm really
good at numbers, but I really don't care. Zone of genius.
Zone of genius. Yeah. I'm really good with numbers. It is not my zone
of genius. I keep spreadsheets for a lot of things because it
helps. But I don't wake up in the morning thinking about numbers and I
can't wait to talk to numbers today. That's just not me. But it does

(14:47):
help. But it is really interesting. There's been several times in my
career where it's come back to numbers. I was a financial
analyst, then I become a park ranger. And then we have a
budget analyst that quit in the region I worked
in and we had a hiring freeze. So what do you do if your parks
and you can't hire a budget analyst? Well, you find a park

(15:09):
ranger out in the field that used to be a financial analyst. So I had
a stint where I was a budget analyst on the weekdays.
1? There is one. I was a budget analyst
on weekdays and a park ranger on weekends while I was filling that
role. And then I I take the job with the home builder
and I start out one way. And then because of my background in numbers, I

(15:32):
get pulled back in. I once had a marketing agency
with somebody and there well, 3 of us. There were 3 of us. And guess
what? When you have a marketing agency, someone's gotta keep track of the numbers
and guess who they pick. And so it it just always pops
up because not a lot of people are good at numbers. And I am,
but it's not something I care about one way or the other. I have met

(15:53):
people, believe it or not, Lauren, there are people that wake up every
morning excited about numbers and spreadsheets. When I was at the
bank, the chief accounting officer, my goodness, nothing put a smile on
his face like numbers. There are people like that out there in the world. I'm
not one of them. Yeah. We need those people. Yes. We do.
You're like the Michael Corleone of,

(16:15):
like, finance. Just when you thought you
were out, they pull you back in, like and I love that you've been
stubborn enough to be like, no. That is not
I can do it, but that's not what I love. You mentioned
grit really early on, and this feels like it really taps into
that. Yeah. I think you're right. It does happen to grit. And there

(16:37):
there's grit in a couple ways. One is being
stubborn that I won't go back to it. Although it doesn't work if you own
your own business and then refuse to do the numbers. That doesn't work.
But the other form of grit that has come up through
this what we've talked about is sometimes you get
grit or get gritty by just getting dragged in

(16:59):
the dirt, which has happened a couple of times. Right? You you have to be
able to sustain that. And if you can learn grit early
on, it really helps later when the stakes are higher. How can you
tell the difference between like, do you have some sort
of internal sense of when to
stick it out or when to shift or pivot? Like, you've talked about that you

(17:21):
fired clients. Like, how do you know when it's just this is when
I need to dig deep and keep going versus this
is breaking point? I've probably made more mistakes
in that regard than I have big wins because when I
like someone, I just stick with them no matter what. Even if it turns out
to have not been the right thing. I've probably got more of those examples than

(17:44):
the other. I'm probably better at choosing not to
stick in situations than I am and not to stick with people
because I just get loyal and I like people. But situations,
I think once you are old enough and you've been through enough
and you just realize, my goodness, if I'm not happy about
this thing when I wake up in the morning or if I'm thinking about it

(18:07):
with not good feelings when I lay down in bed at night, it's probably
time to change because why bother? Sure. There are situations
where you have to deal with it. I know people don't always act like it
now, but we don't live in a world where you can say, I don't like
that. So I'm walking out. What's that? This is news to
me. I know. I'm sorry to I'm sorry to burst you on that,

(18:28):
Lauren. So you have to stick
with things sometimes. Yeah. But then the other mean that
when I decided to become a park ranger, for example, I had 2
bachelor's degrees at the time, but not enough credit to natural sciences.
So I had to go back to school at night because the job I was
working, if they found out I was thinking about leaving, it was the type of

(18:51):
culture where they're like, look, we need someone in your role that's dedicated.
And so they just let you go. So I didn't. But it took a year.
It took me a year from the time I decided to become a park ranger.
And that's not easy to do, to have a vision that far out
and stick with it for a year and say, no matter what happens, this is
where I'm going. That's kind of the opposite of what you were asking.

(19:13):
Like, when do you know to walk away from a situation? Also, when do you
know when to stick with a situation no matter what? Yeah.
For sure. So what compelled the shift to we're
kinda jumping around here, which is I'm fine with, if you're okay with
it. Creative timelines here. What made
the vision of becoming a park ranger so compelling

(19:35):
to you? Lauren, I know over the years, you've heard me talk about my granny
a lot. I have. And Granny came up in our previous hour long
conversation before this. She comes up black ice. By the way, I've never
had a prerecording call. I've done as you
have, Lauren. I've been a guest on many, many podcasts. I've never had a pre
call that lasted more than an hour before actually recording.

(19:57):
We don't like to talk. So I was
a at the bank financial analyst, and my
granny passed away. I told my supervisor at the
time, who the the treasurer, who the person that had that role before
him, I was really tight with, and he took a job as CFO
at another bank. So the new guy, we didn't really know each other and

(20:19):
we were in the middle of something, a big project. And
I was the only one in my role. It's like there were 2 of me
and my granny died. And I said, I'm sorry, I have to
go to Illinois. My granny passed away. And he said, you know, we're right in
the middle of this. So you've got some tough choices to make.
And I said, well, it's not really a tough choice. And I went to

(20:41):
Illinois. And during the time I was there for
my granny's funeral, I realized, you know what? When I go back
and if I perform my job really well, who
really benefits? Maybe the shareholders. Because I
wasn't dealing with customers. You know, I was a I measured
interest rate risk. That was my role. So I think it

(21:03):
was that trip when I went home to see my grand for her funeral
and I thought, I don't know. What does this matter? That was like the first
crack because I was doing exactly what I thought I wanted to do. I
was doing what I went to college for. And then we built a house.
And as we were moving in, the couple that was helping us
move, she worked for parks and she said, you know what? They're hiring park

(21:25):
rangers right now. And by the time I set that first
box down in our new house, I said, I'm going to be a park ranger.
And that was it. That day I decided I was doing
and I was speaking to Cousin Eddie
again, when he said, you know, if he lays into you, it's best to just
let him finish. That was it. I was

(21:49):
You're Rocco? Is that what I'm getting? You're the Rockwiler?
In this situation, yeah. It was just Or no. Wait. Rocco's the kid. Yeah. Rocco
was the dog. Snot. Yeah. I was snot in this situation. It
was best to just let me finish because I was gonna stick with it.
Alright. I'm gonna have to talk to Rebecca about this. I need
more stories from the other side. I now regret

(22:13):
where I took this. I do too for you, but not for me.
Oh my goodness. Wow. Okay. So, like,
in 30 seconds, your whole world shifted, and then you
went the park ranger route. Yes. 30 seconds,
everything shifted, but only in my mind because there's so

(22:34):
much there was a year's worth of work to do from that decision until it
happened. And I I feel like that there's something
there. Right? Because you can make decisions that impact
immediately. You get the return immediately. But it's way different when you
make a decision that you have to have the grit to stick
with it like snot until it's done.

(22:57):
And all right. I'm going to stop with snot. This podcast is now going to
be this episode is called Stick With It Like Snots. Oh my
goodness. Alright. I'm gonna turn this back over to you because when I
No. You keep going. You keep going. You are just it's gold.
This is there's an interpretation in here. Like,
we've leveraged, I think, Christmas vacation very well.

(23:19):
Yes. We have. But I was having a similar conversation with my son
too. He's trying to make a big life decision, and he
is purposely trying to keep one foot in both
decisions. And I said, look. When you decide, you
gotta let go and start taking the action towards the
decision that you made. Because the longer you wait, the harder it

(23:41):
is. And what happens as when you try to keep
one foot in each one and and the 2 start to move further apart?
Yeah. I mean, that could get uncomfortable. Said another way, you can't ride 2
horses with 1 ass. We might have to
edit that out. I don't know. Oh, we might. My granny wouldn't approve of
that. No. She would not. Gosh. I'm gonna totally mess up where I

(24:03):
learned this, but decide the, like, entomology behind
it is to cut off all other paths. Yeah.
And that it's like a the death of other choices.
It's the one yes instead of the 100 other yeses. It's
a it's a 100 nos for the one yes. Yeah. So when
I grew up in Illinois and after college, I

(24:26):
graduated from Illinois State University and then I spent 3 months traveling
the country living out of the tent, which is a whole wonderful story on its
own. And I came to Washington state and decided that's where I want to be.
Ultimately, I want to end up in Colorado, but I need 1 year in Washington
state. And I came back and I started telling people I'm moving
to Washington state. And I told my cousin's

(24:48):
wife, I'm moving to Washington. I've decided I'm moving to Washington.
And she said, well, you've declared you're moving to Washington. If
you've decided, then just do it. I had this
plan to work for a few months and save money. And
she's like, if you do that, the longer you stay, the less likely you
go. If it's a decision, you would act on it now. And that

(25:11):
was in August September. I had loaded everything in my
car and moved to Washington state. And it was because of her helping
me understand the difference between declaring and deciding because
I was going around declaring I was moving to Washington like it had happened.
But had I really decided? Probably not until I drove
away. Yeah. I'm a declarer of

(25:33):
true confession. I have and you know what it is? I have a lot of
ideas, and I need to talk them out before I choose
which to pursue. So often, I think my language
betrays me a little bit. I don't say I'm contemplating this
thing. Like, I would like to, and I get a lot of there's a lot
of things I would like to do. And so I end up in this, like,

(25:55):
gray zone with a lot of things, and this that's a really
interesting distinction, declare versus decide. Oh, I'm gonna be
noodling on that for a really long time. Yeah. It's it's a good
thought exercise to have. And I I think it was Michael Hyatt I first
heard it from where he said, if you
state your goals out loud too often, your mind

(26:19):
kinda thinks, oh, I did that because it gets a little satisfaction by
declaring it. And I have found that there is some truth to that.
I think there's some other side of it too, that
if you tell the right people what you've decided,
then you wanna hold up your end of what you've said.
And so I think find the balance of if you tell

(26:43):
everybody it's a declaration. But if you tell the right
and you Lauren, I'm sure you know who the right people are with you. If
you tell the right people, you're gonna make sure you follow through. And
so perhaps understanding who do I need to talk to to make
sure this is a decision and not just a declaration? Who are your
right people? Well, at the time, I will answer

(27:05):
that modernly. But at the time, when I
decided to move, I remember I ran into
someone that I knew. Actually, one of the people I traveled with
when I lived out of a tent. I ran into him, and he said, hey.
What are you up to? And I said, oh, you know what? I'm moving to
Washington state. Mhmm. And I couldn't back out then. Right?

(27:26):
Because I told him, and we had just spent all that time together in a
tent. But now That's the that you have to
have spent time in a tent for someone to be on your team? Is that
the measure? Well, I just think there's a
level of understanding when you've spent that
many nights in a tent with the same person. Yeah. They know a

(27:47):
little too much. You gotta follow the marriage.
Yeah. So, modernly, definitely one
of those people is Lee Cockrell. I'm not gonna tell Lee Cockrell I'm gonna
do. Well, this has happened. I've told Lee Cockrell I'm gonna
do something. And when it doesn't happen, then he'll say, why are we still talking

(28:08):
about this? You told me you were gonna do it. That's an uncomfortable conversation
to have. So I think when you find that
person to know they're gonna hold you accountable, to know they're not gonna brush
it off and say, oh, you know, a lot of people say things.
But to have someone that will actually make you a little
uncomfortable if you don't do what you say you're gonna do. I think that really

(28:31):
helps. So definitely for me, it's Lee Cockrell. And
I'm lucky enough to have a couple of people like that. Like, if I if
there's if I wanna make something happen, then I
probably am going to tell Lee Cockrell I'm going to do it. Dan Cockrell, I'm
going to do it. The one rivers because the 3 of them,
I'm not going to tell them something frivolous and then not follow-up, which is why

(28:53):
I've never told the 3 of them that I'm writing a book because then I'd
actually have to do it. Yeah. You told me though.
Yeah. That's a good point. I'm not we haven't spent enough time in a
tent. Cross country flights don't count? I feel like that's a tight
situation. Right? Yeah. I did take a nap on that flight,
so maybe it counts. You did? I told you about writing a book

(29:15):
before that flight. I haven't mentioned it at all since the Yeah.
You haven't. I haven't called you on it. So Yeah. Because I told you about
it before a cross country flight together. Yeah. Alright. I'll start
mentioning it. Oh. Fair enough. See what I've done.
So I do see what you've done. What is your book about?
Oh, stop. I think

(29:37):
everybody wants to know. Should I have everybody email you, message
you, and so on social? Yeah. What sure. Now what I
used to do that story? What I used to do on my
podcast is I would say, email me and ask me my
word count, and people actually would email me and
ask me my word count. They stopped when my reply was shut

(29:59):
up, then they stopped. Yeah. Well No. I didn't.
I wasn't that rude to anybody. Your granny wouldn't have taken it if you wouldn't
have liked it if you did. No. My granny expects me to have
manners. Yes. Yeah. There's a reason they called her
the the sage of the prairie, philosopher of the prairie. I mean, there's a you
know what I call her? The Napoleon of the discard because she was just wicked

(30:21):
at Skippo. Skippo?
Oh, man. That was our family game. When my granny
passed away Plain little. I said, there's one I don't
care what all y'all take. I
have to have her skip bow deck, which I have. It's the only thing I
got her skip bow deck because we used to play skip bow together. I've taken

(30:43):
us way off topic. No. We're gonna ask. To a great place.
Well, skip bow with Granny is a great place. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Granny was really good at Skippo, but she did
cheat. So did my grandma marry. Oh.
Oh. We could have had some really a lot of fun playing
partners with them. Yeah. Only we'd known each

(31:05):
other. If you got up to use the bathroom, granny would slide
cards into your deck into your pile. No.
Yeah. So you just had to hold it.
Amazing. Yeah. I think that was part of her strategy. You make that
mistake once. Yeah. When you start, granny will have
you drink some nice sweet tea, and then she'll drag the

(31:26):
games out really long. I'm just now putting this together.
So Revelations. Yes. This
was, I'll tell you, a traumatizing event. The first time I ever beat Granny
at Skippo. And brace yourself because this is a little shocking.
I beat her at Skippo, and she called me a puke head.

(31:48):
Granny. Yeah. Wow. And
how old was I? I was 23, I think, the
first time I ever beat her. Oh, wow.
So she was not accustomed to losing. Not not a Oh, no.
No. She was Napoleon of the discard. She was not accustomed to
losing. Discard. Oh, I love

(32:11):
it. She would do anything to win. But you asked what the book was
about. I've successfully avoided that, and I can keep avoiding
that. Of other things. Yeah. We have. Yeah. We should keep talking
about, my granny. Nah. Back to the book. What is your word
count? I don't remember. It's been so long since I even opened the
word document. I do believe it was around 44,000

(32:32):
words, though, which is enough to actually say it's done if
it were complete. Yeah. It's not. Yeah. So that book
is about podcasting because that's what I do.
The problem is that as we
do, maybe I don't have the grit to have finished it
because there's a whole third section I just never did. And

(32:55):
maybe it never needed it to begin with. But there are
some podcasters out there that have way more experience
than me, way more popularity than me. I've done some unique
things in podcasting, though. Yeah. And so that's what I was
writing about, like just about podcasting. Since then, though, I
have like the outline done for the next 4 books

(33:17):
and those other 4 are so attractive. I have
trouble staying away from them. So what
do I do, Lauren? I have one that's 44,000 words
in. It probably will be done in another 10 to 15, and
then it can be edited and shortened, and then it's done. But
I have these other 4, and they flirt with me all the time. These ideas

(33:40):
for books. They're like making winky faces.
Yeah. That's an interesting conundrum.
I'm the wrong person to ask. You should see how many manuscripts I have started.
Yeah. And quite often, those other 4
seem more interesting, seem more attractive, seem
more relevant. But if I was 44,000 words

(34:03):
into them, maybe they wouldn't. I don't know. I find
the middle to be really tricky. You know? Like, I
think I love to personally just love to start new stuff,
and pushing it across the finish line is is challenging. But, I mean,
it's such a personal choice. Right? Like, podcasting is a huge
part of what you've done and how

(34:25):
you've built. So let's circle up to this at the
end and talk through it. Can you share how
many podcasts you have had, how you got started in podcasting? Was
podcasting something you were doing for the luxury home builder? No.
No. What was your marketing channel there? Like, what did you primarily
build out? So at the end, we'll do

(34:47):
it. Well, you can provoke me to get back into that
book, and we will encourage people to reach out to me and, Okay, we're not.
We'll come back to that. We'll see. Yeah, we'll see. So
with the luxury home builder, we did
Facebook and a blog. Both of them were very popular
locally. Like, we didn't care if someone ads or No.

(35:10):
Just our just our Facebook page. Yeah. Yeah. It did pretty
well. Not with people in Cincinnati. We didn't care about that. But if you were
in Port Townsend, of course, we wanted you to look at it. Yeah. So
that was the and then newspapers. We did newspaper ads
and things like that. So podcasting, you
asked about that. Right? I did. Or okay. So because it's

(35:32):
been such a big part of your story. I mean, it's how we met. At
podcast moving in 2016, Chicago. Oh my goodness. That's
right. Yeah. That's right. Which that we should also tell the Sugar j
story when when the time comes. Yes. Because that was burst
there. So podcasting was not
something that was on my radar. But at this point,

(35:55):
2013, I was starting to
miss parks a little bit. I graduated with the
MBA and I started to think, what if I took the ideas I learned in
business school and applied them to parks? But I didn't want to go back and
be a park ranger. I came up with this idea called
Park Leaders. That was content

(36:15):
for part leaders in parks, hence the clever name,
park leaders. But I didn't know what it would be. I bought the
domain. I sat on it. I kicked it around. I thought, Okay, maybe I'll
do a blog. But I hadn't started it. Then I
discovered this podcast called Starve the Doubts because at the time I
listened to them. Oh, yeah. A lot of podcasts. So I discovered Starve the Doubt.

(36:37):
Who I reached to that? What? I reached out to the host, Jared
Easley, and we struck up a
a friendship and we talked all the time. At which I mean, that
seemed uncommon in 2013 to just end up
connecting with the podcast host, becoming friends. But I
had an idea for a guest for Jared Show. So Jared

(37:00):
Aisley is completely responsible for me being a podcaster.
All the good and bad that goes with it. And I suggested a
guest for the show. And Jared said, I'll do it if you will be my
co host. So I said yes. And Jared is
a very good podcaster. We do this show together and we
had questions in advance and we knew who would

(37:22):
ask which question. And Jared made his like a conversation.
But then when it was my turn to ask a question, I just blurted it
out. Like, if it if my question was, what's your favorite color?
Then just I would interrupt and say, Lauren, what's your favorite
color? I mean, I was terrible. But Jared invited me back a couple
more times to co host, And that's when I started to see that, wait a

(37:44):
minute, this could be the avenue for park leaders. And
then in 2013, I recorded 6 episodes
of the park leader show. And I really disliked them. In
particular, I disliked the sound of my voice because my
voice is different. And I thought, oh, geez, my voice sounds so different.
And then in 24 April of 2014, I finally got over myself

(38:07):
and released the show, started the show.
And then where it became such a big piece of what
I do is I wanted to talk to someone
from Disney about what natural parks,
like national parks and state parks, can learn from
Disney and other themed parks. But I had no connection to anyone at

(38:29):
Disney. I found the book Creating Magic on
Amazon and bought it. And as I was going through it, I
thought, I think the author of this book would be a great
guest. But he ran quickly. He
ran Disney World. What are the chances he's gonna come and be on a
show for Park Rangers? But I reached out and I asked him.

(38:50):
I had no idea that at the time his sister-in-law had
been a park ranger for 30 years, and she went on to retire
as the superintendent of Glacier Bay National Park in Alaska.
So the author was Lee Cockrell. And when I asked, he said,
I love Park Rangers. Let's do it. So we did one episode.
We did another episode about a second book, The Customer Rules, and

(39:13):
we just had a good rapport and he was so good at it. I said,
Lee, have you ever thought about doing your own podcast? And he said,
no. I'm retired. I wanna feel retired. I'm sure it'd be fun, but it'd be
a lot of work. So I said, what if, this was not
planned. It just happened. I said, what if you just show up and I do
all the work? And he said, oh, I'll think about it. I said, oh, I'll

(39:35):
never hear from him again. And he called me 2 weeks later and said,
I've thought about it. Let's do it. So I said, okay. Give me some time.
And I took 2 months. I read all 600 of his blog
posts. I reread his 2 books. I watched
every video I could that had him in it on YouTube and took
notes the whole way. And then I said, okay, Lee, I'm ready. And then

(39:57):
we recorded and launched creating Disney magic in 2014.
And now 500 plus episodes more than 4,000,000
downloads later, it's still going. And then
to answer your question, that's how I got into podcasting. But then how did
it become such a big piece of what I do? Once you
work with someone that high profile and do a good job,

(40:20):
you start hearing from other people saying, can you do for me what you did
for him? Yeah. So then I started to I never intended
to be like a professional podcast host. But when
people start reaching out to you saying, I wanna pay you money. Sure.
I'll do that. So at my peak Yes, please.
Yes, please. More at my peak, I think I may have had,

(40:42):
like, 10 shows going. So At one time? At one
time. Yeah. And now I've done That's a lot of juggling.
Oh, it is. It is. But it worked. And I haven't counted in a while,
but I know I've topped probably 26 100
episodes now. Yeah. So that's a few. Just a
couple. I think too being at the helm of it and the way you do

(41:03):
it is so interesting. Like, being a cohost for personalities
facilitating the tech, you know so I was talking to another
friend. She's come gonna be featured on the show as well. And
her background made her such, like, a good I have
no, like, more appealing way to say this. I have to come up with
something, but, like, I always think podcasters. Right?

(41:26):
When somebody says I produce podcasts, oftentimes to me that
slots into technical, not host. You know both
sides. And so there's this, like, instead of being, like,
really niche, it's harder to
explain, but you're the connective tissue between all the pieces.
And I think the people I gravitate towards naturally are those who

(41:48):
have backgrounds that inform them in such a
way that they can, like, traverse between the
technical and the front of house and, like, all the things that are
needed to really make a successful podcast. And I'm sharing
this because I think that's a unique offering
that possibly should be encapsulated in a

(42:10):
book that's nearly done. Well, it's I
appreciate that. And it and it is interesting. I do know all
the technical background production stuff, but have since
given over my role. I I have brought someone onto the team
to be my podcast producer and then just taught her what
to do. And for a while, I was even as

(42:33):
show opportunities would come in. I was having someone else on my
team host them, and I wasn't even hosting them as much.
But what has made I think what has made
me do that role very well is I've never
positioned myself as a podcaster, even though I am and I'm proud to
be 1. I'm just a businessman who happens to

(42:55):
be really good at podcasting. And that's the difference
is. And the other thing is to understand
the role. So let's stick with creating Disney magic. Yeah,
Lee and I have very different roles,
which is what has made that show so successful. Lee is the
star. I am the host. He is not the host.

(43:18):
That is not his role in any way. It is my job
to make sure Lee sounds great, looks great,
says things the audience will enjoy. It's my role to make
sure the episode stays on track and
gives useful information to the audience. And it's Lee's role
to just be the star, to show up and say really

(43:40):
magical things. And as long as we stick to that, it
turns out really well. Lee, as wonderful as
he is, probably wouldn't do so well hosting a show,
but he does phenomenal starring in a show.
Yeah. And that's the difference. To understand my role
is to show up and make sure Lee hits

(44:03):
a home run and that the audience gets something out of it.
So if I'm hearing you right, you view podcasting more
as a marketing tool rather than a product in and of itself?
Because the way you you categorize that is, like, I'm a businessman
who also happens to do podcast as opposed to a podcaster as, like,
that is your, like, leading identity. Do you see them how do you

(44:26):
view it? Well, I I think that's kind of
how business operates these days. We've had people
come to events of ours that have listened to the show
for years before they actually do anything. Mhmm. Do
anything as in purchase something bigger than just listening. And it
comes from years of hearing what we have to say and getting to

(44:48):
know us personally. And then when the timing is right, they'll come
to an event or they'll take a course or they'll do something
else. I feel like that's kind of how people like to
do things. There's so many options these days. We'd
rather go to an event for someone that we feel that
we know and really enjoy. I don't think there's

(45:10):
another avenue that quite gets us
there. Us being the listener and the host
and star to that relationship like a podcast. I know video is
really popular these days, and I don't want to take anything away from
that. But when I'm when I'm watching a video and then I say, but like
what I said before, doesn't matter. But it does. When I'm watching a

(45:32):
video, though, I'm usually sitting down
watching it. But when I listen to a podcast, I'm out walking
my dog or I'm driving somewhere or I'm mowing
the lawn. More intimate life stuff. It's
just a feeling that you don't get watching videos.
That's why I've stuck so strongly to podcasting.

(45:55):
And that is why. So you listen to some of the
more popular podcasts out there and they can do it however they want.
I'm not saying they're doing it wrong, but quite often you'll hear them
say something like, Well, if you're listening to this right
now, then do it. Well, of course I'm listening.
You know, you don't have to qualify that because I wouldn't have heard it otherwise.

(46:18):
Or they'll refer to to all the listeners out
there. But if you hear that and then you look around and you're like, well,
I'm in my backyard and I'm by myself. And this may seem
silly, but it's true. I'm in a very
intimate setting. And if you treat it like that.
So the 3 of us are talking and you're like, Lauren, like the 3

(46:39):
of us, there's just me and you. But that's never how I see it. I
always see this with you. Well, I had to use you as an
example. I always see it as 3
people. There's me, there's Lauren, there's one listener. And
I quite often and many hosts are not used to this.
When I'm a guest, I will just talk directly to the listener

(47:01):
and refer to Lauren as Lauren instead of talking directly to Lauren,
because I understand what people are doing when they're listening to a podcast.
And that way you're talking directly to them. If I say,
oh, Lauren, to your listeners, I just want to say,
well, that's not very intimate, right? That's not like I'm
having a conversation with you. I'm sitting at my desk right

(47:24):
now. I can see Lauren's face and I can see your face.
And if I have something to say to Lauren, I will look at Lauren. If
I have something to say to you, I will look at you. That's what we
would do if we all went out to lunch together. I don't
randomly talk to everyone in the cafe who might hear what
I'm saying. Oh, now I want you to. I

(47:45):
could That would be really interesting. Yeah. Next time we go out to lunch, Lauren,
we'll we'll try that. Yeah. Go get Bainbridge
toast. Yeah. Maybe that oh, we should. If you don't I
know. Know. Blackbird Cafe. I got
a text from a friend who was like, I wanna take a
ferry somewhere and go to a yarn store, and there's a very beautiful yarn store

(48:07):
in Bainbridge. So if that happens, I'm calling you, and we will make that
happen. Yeah. I'll do it. You don't even know how that so
that's about 45 minutes away from me. May maybe
50 to turn on. How many times I've driven down there just to meet someone
for toast? And and someone will tell me strange thing,
but someone will tell me I'm gonna going to be in Seattle.

(48:29):
Can we get together? I said, yes. Take the ferry. I'll pick you up. We'll
go for toast. And they're like, what? Toast?
And I just trust me on this one. I love it. I
can't wait to be one of those people. Oh, you're gonna be 1. All these
things I was saying about podcasting, Lauren, you're right. Maybe that needs to be in
a book. I mean, because I think listen. There's so many people

(48:51):
who do video, who do podcast. Like, I think
one of the hardest parts about being a
solopreneur is that you kinda look around and you go, that's already been
done. That's already been done. But the reality is it's
not been done by you in a particular way.
And I think that your lens

(49:14):
through which you see podcasting in the way that
you I'm gonna say the word leverage. I don't mean it,
like, duplicitously, but, like, the way you leverage the medium, it
works. I've sat in a room with you and Lee and
the people who are your listeners and have come to Masterminds, and
I go, oh, like, it's, like, the ultimate

(49:36):
filter to help you find your tribe, help you find the people you're
going to align with because there's this sense of, like, well, if I
like the cut of these guys' jibs, then the
people that they attract will they're kind of, like, pre
vetted. And I think podcasting a lot of
podcasters feel like I'm on stage, and here it is, my show.

(49:58):
And, you know, it gets, like, a little performative, I
guess. And I love the more intimate
style that it's just conversations. And if
someone is willing to hang out with you for an hour or to hear
stories or learn something new, that that's about
that's something to say thank you to. That's something to honor by

(50:20):
continuing to create good content, knowing your
role if you're in a host guest situation, that
sort of thing. So I think that message needs to be out there
more and in in every form, and
so I would read that book. Well, at least I know I've got
one copy sold when it is finished. That's all I really

(50:42):
need. There you go. I think
too, like you said, should we invite people to email
me about my word count? I think what we should do is invite people
to email you if this is a book they would read. Not to hold your
feet to the fire and drag you across the finish line, but to give you
a little jet propulsion from behind and say, this would be worthwhile or

(51:04):
have people, like, standing at the the finish line. Like, I would be cheering you
on because I think that's more motivating. And if that
isn't motivating, if the idea of people reading it isn't motivating,
then that's the answer. Right? That's a good point. And I like
that idea of that's kind of encouragement
motivating when I told people to email me about

(51:26):
my word count. And then when they did and I didn't have an update, I
was always like, oh, shoot. I gotta tell them.
So there's a there is a difference in the motivation. But, also, I think
if people were emailing you, they were saying the other thing.
Right? They were saying I would read this. They weren't checking in on you to,
like, have you, like, self flagellate. You

(51:47):
know? But I do it too with word counts. I mean, like I said,
I have 2 half finished fiction manuscripts, 1 half
finished nonfiction. I have play in the works. Like, I
love writing. I love creating, and it's just when
I do the word count thing, it's just demotivating for
me. Like, it's gonna take the time it's gonna take, and you do

(52:09):
have to have an awareness of the kinds of word counts you need. But it
sounds like you have a map. You know where you're headed. I do. It's
right. And I for me, it's more I don't wanna
see guaranteed. I'm gonna use the word guaranteed with a asterisk by it,
but it's pretty much a guaranteed published
book because I have helps me. I have an

(52:31):
imprint with Morgan James Publishing. So,
like, there's no good reason to have not done it, except
maybe it needed to wait until. So this is interesting. I had not thought of
this. Had I published it 2 years ago when I first started
it and could have finished it. And I look at what I've done
since then. And I thought, well, now as I

(52:54):
think about that, there's some good stories. For example,
Lauren actually was I will only say a guest. I
will. I will say guest because you understand what that term means before you hear
what I say. When my son went away to college, I was feeling
a little like, what am I going to do? I'm not a daily influence on
his life anymore. So I started a podcast just

(53:16):
for him. I put it on all the channels, but I started a podcast
for an audience of 1. I did have the episodes and
other people did messages for him. So not
really a guest. Just a contributor. Just had a message for
him. And that story wouldn't have made it in the book. And it's really
changed the way I look at podcasting to some degree

(53:38):
of you have some people that try to make podcasts
in the radio shows or as Lauren said, I'm on stage and here's my
performance. But what if you are podcasting for 1 person?
How would that change what you do? As much as I have
podcast in the 200 and 50
or so episodes of that show, I learned things I didn't even

(54:02):
know or consider because you do things a little different
when you are podcasting for 1 person. And I get
Lauren hangs out with some pretty big podcasters. So these numbers are
not going to shock anybody. But for a podcast
that I made for 1 person, if I had one
download every day, I would have been thrilled. Mission accomplished.

(54:24):
That's all I set out to do. And when my son
finished his freshman year of college, it was the last time I looked at download
numbers because I really never pay attention to them. But I was
curious. Well, I wonder how many times this show was listened to
during the school year. So there should have been roughly
250 downloads because there were more or less 250

(54:45):
shows. It was meant for 1 person, and it was
downloaded more than 11,000 times. And isn't that interesting?
A show meant for 1 person was intriguing enough for that
many people to listen to. Wow. That's
fascinating. I mean, I feel that's that's the hook. Right? Because there's so
many people who are like, I want 11,000 downloads a year. Right? Because that's

(55:08):
what it was. Mhmm. Yeah. I think too it dovetails nicely with,
like, avatar work, which is something that I talk about a lot with
SEO. Like, doing keyword research is gaining insight
into the person you wish to help. It's showing you
the language they're using. It gives you a better sense of their struggle. It
allows you to empathize with that specific person,

(55:31):
that specific question, and then you can see how many individuals
are searching that term and decide, you know, what is the bigger
pain point to address first. But it is
about even with screens between you connecting with
1. Yes. And that is so Lauren has been
to one of the signature events Lee Cockrell and I

(55:52):
do, the Creating Magic Mastermind. We do it twice a year. So many people
that come to that, Lauren hinted at it, have listened to the podcast
for years and that that's part of what brought them
there is that relationship they felt they had
with us. And when I say they felt they had, that's not to say it's
not real, but it's that relationship they felt they had

(56:14):
with us from listening to the show because I make
sure that creating Disney magic is a conversation
with 3 people and not Lee Cockrell on a
stage. It's treating the audience differently,
like, they're involved in what you're doing and you're not just putting
on a performance. Which to be clear, Lee is exceptional on

(56:37):
stage. Yes. She is. You're right. There's that sense
of connection. I've always felt it was so funny because I
I used to have a college admissions podcast when I had my test prep company,
and people would call and I would pick up the phone. I actually had a
phone, which I feel like immediately is weird, but
I knew, like, I'm helping parents and their kids. They might

(57:00):
want that lifeline to actually chat. So I would pick up
the phone and I'd say hello, and they'd be like, oh my god. It's
you. Well, it wasn't my dog
wasn't gonna pick up the phone. Like, this is a very small
operation, friends, and they loved that. They
immediately knew who I was and had a connection with me. But, of course, for

(57:22):
me as the podcaster, this relationship was just beginning.
And I think you know, so I understand what you're saying when you're like, we
have a relationship, but we don't. But it does feel intimate, and it's
why you see podcast fans, fangirl or
fanboy out when we come to these conferences because we've spent hours
with you. We've poured in so much time. We're connected and

(57:44):
bound, and we know about you. And that's where I feel like it's so
important, and you're exceptional at this, Jodie, of
turning it around and being like, you know all about
me already. That is a foregone conclusion. Let me ask questions about
you. And I think that's a step that I think a lot of business owners
miss. I think you and Lee both do that really beautifully. Well,

(58:06):
thank you first. And then second, I think one of the
best compliments I've ever had about podcasting
is this and it's happened more than once, is people
will meet Lee Cockrell for the first time in person and then tell me
I had coffee with Lee and he's exactly like he is on the podcast.
And I think, well, first of all, what what did you expect? But second

(58:30):
of all, well, thank you because that's the goal of the show,
is that Lee is Lee. And I'm glad you felt like he
is in person like he is on the show. Being really grounded in who you
are. Yeah. And I and I think there's perhaps an
expectation that people think well, I mean,
when I listen to Lauren on her podcast, that's Lauren the performer.

(58:52):
That's not really Lauren Gagioli. That's Lauren
the performer. Or as Siri used to say,
Lauren Giggly. She I think she still does.
It's not an easy last name. Jody used
to call me just so he could hear Siri say my name. Yes.
I would. I would always ask Siri to to call her because it repeats the

(59:15):
name back. And, you know, there's another piece that
we we didn't get into. I mentioned Sugar Jay earlier
kind of as a joke, but there's something to there
is something to Sugar Jay. So Sugar Jay is my nickname,
but Sugar Jay is also kind of a someone
asked me that didn't know. They said, Who is Sugar Jay? And I said,

(59:38):
Sugar Jay is the Mark Twain to my Samuel
Clemens. And by that, I mean Sugar
Jay is Jody Mayberry exaggerated
because I'm more inclined to be a little quiet and keep
to myself, but Sugar Jay's not. So Sugar Jay's
like Jody Mayberry times 2 because when I am a

(01:00:00):
guest on a show or do my own episodes or I'm on stage
or at an event teaching a workshop, I need to be me times 2
because, you know, the regular Jody Mayberry is just a little
more quiet, keeps to himself a little more. So I think
that does help. I wouldn't say I'm putting on a performance
when I'm on podcast, but it is a

(01:00:22):
little it's like Jody Mayberry times 2. Like, there's
Lauren Gagioli is the regular Lauren. Lauren Gagigli,
that's Lauren times 2.
Oh my gosh. It's
your alter ego effect. It's like, for those who didn't follow
the Samuel Clemens, Mark Twain, it's the Sasha

(01:00:45):
Farce to your Beyonce. Yeah. That went right by me. Fair
you. Yeah. I thought I just you
know, for the cool kids in the group.
Yeah. Well, you know, in that in that spirit,
Jeff Barnes said Walt Disney's greatest
character was Walt Disney because the public Walt

(01:01:07):
Disney was a, like, a very polished version
of the real Walt Disney. Yeah. Someone
oh, there's a great line. Someone once said,
like, I've always wanted to meet Cary Grant, and Cary Grant's reply
was like, me too. He never felt like he
was that suave, you know, Hollywood

(01:01:30):
star. And I think anybody who's performing
public facing, putting our voice out there, it is hard work. And that
idea of the alter ego can be really powerful to help
you not be duplicitous or less authentic, but to,
like, to use the Disney term, like, plus up so that you
can genuinely connect and help. And I think that the more you

(01:01:51):
can do that along an authentic track, you're not stepping outside
of your own self in terms of, like, core values and things like
that. But the more you can, like, lean in
and say this is the most me, like, the more distilled
essence as it were, the better off the work can be
and, therefore, the more resonant it can be and, therefore, the more people you can

(01:02:13):
help. I like it. I think that's right.
What a great conversation with Lauren. What we talked about there at the
end, I think, is an important concept to
grasp and get a hold of. No matter what you call it, it could
be an alter ego. You could say plus it up. You could say you

(01:02:34):
times 2. This is an idea that can help you connect with people
when you're on a podcast, on a stage, or even on a Zoom
call. Heck, you could even use it when you write emails. You're
not trying to be someone else. You're just being yourself,
just plussed up a little bit. You times 2. Well, if you
enjoyed this interview, check out the Digital Entrepreneur

(01:02:57):
Toolkit podcast hosted by Lauren Gagioli. You can find it
wherever you listen to this podcast. Thank you
for joining me for this episode of the Jodi
Mayberry Show.
Righto. Thanks for the yarn, but I'm gonna bail. It's Sugar

(01:03:19):
Jay.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Boysober

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Be You Times Two

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Boysober

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

Be You Times Two

Boysober