June 18, 2025 • 36 mins
“When someone is gone, their stories are gone with them. Capture them while you can.”
Notable Moments
01:35 — How Ken met and filmed Disney Imagineer Rolly Crump
03:50 — Editing choices when your subject has endless stories
06:20 — The lost stories we regret not recording
09:42 — Ken’s new film on Universal Monsters and how he shaped its story
14:48 — The power of pre-interviews and the “pregnant pause” for better storytelling
25:53 — Emotional connection: the secret ingredient of a great story
28:11 — Monsters are back: why Ken’s timing is perfect
Stories connect us, spark emotion, and build memories that last. Filmmaker Ken Kebow knows a thing or two about telling unforgettable stories through film. We explore his time with Disney Imagineer Rolly Crump, his new Universal Monsters documentary, and the art of letting people talk until the real magic appears. Ken shares tips for better storytelling, including the value of silence. We also swap stories about the ones that got away. This conversation will have you reaching for your recorder to preserve the stories that matter most.
Read my blog for more about this episode.
Connect with Ken
The Whimsical Imagineer - The Story Of Rolly Crump
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Foreign.
Welcome to the Jody Mayberry Show. I'm so pleased
this episode to bring you, well, someone that's become a new
friend. Ken Kebo. He is a documentary
filmmaker and I think you're really going to like some of the work he's done,
which we will talk about. But first, I'll introduce you to Ken.
(00:21):
Hello, Ken. Jody, it's great to meet you. We are
just embarking on a new friendship, but we've had some great talks and looking
forward to getting to know you better and hopefully getting together one of these days.
Oh, my goodness. We're going to record now over zoom, but soon
we will be recording in person in Montana.
I have an open door policy here, so anytime you want. Well,
(00:43):
Ken, I have to say I really enjoyed checking out
your work. There's two of the documentaries I've looked into, by the
way. I have always had a really hard time saying the word
documentary. I practiced a lot before this, but
that is what, like one of everybody, I think, has one or two words they
have trouble saying. That is one of mine. So I had to practice a lot.
(01:06):
You did great. We could just call them docs from now on. Okay, there we
go. We'll just call them docs. Okay. So I know you've done a lot of
great work. The two that I'm really fascinated with.
One's older, one is new and we can talk about either one. But
I. I think the newer one is relevant with something
that just opened in Orlando. We'll come to that. The first one,
(01:28):
the film you did on Rolly Crump. Oh,
my goodness, that had to just be so much fun. What a
great experience. Rolly was a one of a kind.
It was kind of interesting how it all happened. I was having breakfast
with my mom and she goes, hey, you should do a documentary. A guy that
worked on Disneyland, he worked on A Small World. And I had this vision of
(01:51):
some guy in the back, you know, building flats and stuff. And she goes, a
friend of hers was dating Rollie at the time. She goes, yeah, his name's Rolly
Crump. Look him up. No idea. Big Disneyland fan, but never knew who Rolly
was. And I was just blown away when I went home and researched
him. I'm going, oh, my gosh, this guy is the real deal.
And met Rolly and developed a friendship.
(02:12):
And just one of those people, besides being probably the best storyteller I've
ever met, met just a great person to
be with and listen to and learn from. And just a
genuinely, incredibly nice and just amazing
person, just an amazing guy. Given how much
he talked, how many stories he told, and you
(02:34):
only have so much film you can make. What
I am most curious about with that is how.
Well, this is two part. I'll wind it up and you can go with it
as much as you want. So this is what I'm. I'm curious about.
One is beforehand, do you put
what you think will be the story together in your head on paper
(02:57):
before you start talking to him? And then two, when
there is someone that has all those stories
and tells most of them, how do you decide what
to cut out and. And what to leave in to make the film?
That's a great question, Jody. In this case,
Rolly's life had so many different episodes. You know, Knott's
(03:20):
Disney, he worked with the Cousteaus on stuff. I mean, it
just. It's all over the board. So I just went in with a lot of
questions and what happened was I realized as I
started to put it together that there's enough here just for a
Disney show easily, and then some. And what happened that was funny,
Jodi? First of all, I must have asked. We interviewed really for about eight hours,
(03:41):
and I must have asked maybe four or five questions in those eight hours because
he would just go on these beautiful stories that would segue into
the next question. And it was just the easiest interview I've ever done.
He was so good on camera. But when I got back with all the footage
and started looking at it, I realized that, you know what,
each of these attractions that Rollie worked on is its own
(04:03):
beginning, middle and end. So I like the under 40
minute documentaries. That's short documentaries at film festivals and stuff. But I realized
that I initially went into one big 30 about Disneyland, but
I said this is three or four minute segments. I think
there's six or seven in the show that tell Rollie's stories because each one did
have a very definite beginning, middle and end. And, you know, it's
(04:25):
funny when you. It's such a good question, Jodi, because you never really know going
into it. You know, you can't really script a documentary. You can outline and, you
know, three by five cards and all that. But I can tell you, Roll is
a perfect example how getting into the edit room and look and listening and playing
with the footage for months that when it really
finally comes on a little light bulb and goes, this is how it's all going
(04:47):
to fit together. And I think that's one of the parts I enjoy the most
about it. Your Other part of the question, and you and I have talked about
this briefly, is. And it's on the list of projects. You know, Rollie and I
talk for eight hours. And there's so much else about him that's
not in the show. I mean, he has stories about being with
Steve Wynn in Vegas when he. Steve Wynn was first there and on the frontier
(05:07):
downtown, and Rollie was doing murals on the wall. I mean, just. He's kind of
like a zelig of, you know, all these people he's worked with and met.
And I. I'm thinking that those segments,
hopefully down the road shortly, would be a great podcast
again. Rollie is so good. I've got a couple other people, Bob Gurr, I'm sure
you're familiar with, and. And Chris Crump, Rollie Son, and some other folks that
(05:30):
I think we could put together a really good podcast, maybe five, six segments about
these other phases of Rollie's life. Because the stories are just as interesting,
they're just as funny, they're just as amazing. And again, you know,
Rolu is such a good storyteller, I think. I think it'd be a
good show. There's one. I'll give you a little spoiler alert. There's one where he
went out. He's going to do an undersea world adventure with the cost
(05:50):
Cousteaus. And he went with Jacques Cousteau, and I think one of the sons was
Jack and some other folks all off the coast of somewhere. It's in the tape,
but I don't remember shot this while ago. And they literally. I guess I'm
okay saying this, they drank so much on the boat, the Cousteaus almost
could not get the boat find their way back to port. And I'm just
going, yo, here's these renowned seamen adrift, full of alcohol out
(06:12):
somewhere. And it's just those kind of stories that, you know, no one
would ever know if it wasn't for Rolly telling them. And one interesting thing, Jody,
then I'll shut up. But Rolly said, when we start working on the
documenting, Ken, I have all these stories, and when I'm gone, the stories are
gone with me. So I. I'm just so thankful to Rolly and Marie and Chris
Crump that we sat down with Rollie because we do have all these
(06:33):
stories now that he's passed away. So there's a lot more there. So
it's pretty close to the top of the list after a couple things I'm working
on now. But I'm looking forward to maybe taking a dive into the world of
podcasting as well. And I think that might be a good project for it. Oh,
I think so. People are going to love those stories and
the gift that you. You are able to give because
(06:54):
you sat down with him and. And recorded them. And I'll tell
you this, we need to talk about you mostly, Kim. But I'll tell you one
of my big regrets I've had. I got. I had the
chance to get to know Ron Logan very well. He was the executive
vice president of live entertainment for all of Disney
Worldwide. And we got to know each other really well.
(07:16):
And I would spend hours sitting in his office listening
to him tell stories. And then he unexpectedly
passed away. And I've always kicked myself that we didn't
record any of those for no good reason we didn't record other than we were
just having normal conversations and never recorded it. And
there's so many times I've thought, I wish I had that story from Ron
(07:38):
Nashir. Yes, I can tell it. But he was such a good
storyteller. I wish I had his voice telling it. And that's
what you've done with this collection of Raleigh stories that you have.
I've been so fortunate. And it kind of worked out really well because
having done the documentary, I had a little bit of contact with
Disney, and when they needed Rolly interviewed for the
(08:01):
anniversary of the Haunted Mansion, they asked me to go over and do that sort
of thing. So it also led to much more from Rollie
than just the documentary. And again, you know, I think
when they're working on the Imagineer show for Disney Channel, I did a little
work with him. And there's also another gentleman whose name escapes me. And I've done
some interviews with Rollie. So, you know, it's so important, Jodi, like you
(08:23):
say, it's. And I've been guilty of the same thing you have, but I've gotten
smarter about it, carry a little zoom around because, yeah, those stories are
just priceless. And hearing them, as you mentioned, from
the person who actually experienced them, if they're especially a good storyteller,
there's nothing like it. So, yeah, I'm with you. I try and be really good.
I tell everybody, tape your grandma and grandpa, tape your mom and dad, just,
(08:44):
you know, when you're sitting down, because that's invaluable stuff and
it's easy to do nowadays. Doesn't take a lot of equipment or, you know, a
lot of microphones or anything like that. But you'll treasure that. And your kids and
their kids and their grandkids will treasure those, even those personal family moments
forever. Yeah, they certainly will. Okay, so
you did this great film about Rollie, the newer one, and
(09:06):
I think we could talk all episode about that one. But,
yeah, I. There's one thing I'm really interested in, and that is
how you tell a story through film or using film to tell
stories. So with Roelly, you talk to him, and then
you saw how the story came together. Now, your newest film,
I know, is a passion project of yours, Universal Monsters,
(09:29):
and you can tell us more about that. And then I'm curious
how you told that story, because it's not like you were interviewing
monsters and you see where it went that one. Maybe you got to put a
story together ahead of time. Yes, that's a very good point, Jodi,
and that's very observant of you, I'll admit. I'm a Disney nerd
and a monster nerd. You know, the beauty of now being
(09:52):
mostly retired from client work is I could do projects that are more
personal, and I'm interested, and I think that's what fuels anyone. I'm sure you could
agree that's, you know, having that passion for something to get it finished. Yes. So
I've always loved the Universal Monsters. And right
before COVID was the 90th anniversary of the original
Dracula and Frankenstein, 1931. So
(10:14):
2021. So we were working on the project
and got sidelined by Covid. So we're looking at next year,
2026, as the 95th anniversary of those two originals,
and hopefully I could get it wrapped up and ready to go for next year.
So it's just one of those funny things where the stars line up. I said,
okay, gotta talk to Karloff, gotta talk to Chaney, gotta talk to
(10:36):
Lugosi. Found. So, you know, thank goodness for the
Internet. Found Sarah Karloff, Boris's daughter, and
Ron Chaney, Lon Chaney's grandson and
great grandson. There are two, Lon Chaney's father and son that are both amazing.
We lived about 10 minutes from each other in California. So,
you know, when. When does that kind of happen? So for production budget, it was
(10:58):
great. One day, shoot, we get them both. Tried to get the Lugosi,
Lynn Lugosi, who is a great granddaughter of original Bela
Lugosi, and her dad's named Bella as well. And we just couldn't coordinate. She's got
a lot going on. So I was disappointed in that because I had this idea
for you Know, a big headline. Karlov, Cheney,
Lugosi, all on the screen at the same time for the first time, you know,
(11:20):
which didn't happen, but it was really interesting and had
a great interview with Sarah, great interview with Ron Chaney, great discussions with
Lynn, but again, we just couldn't coordinate time. I found a young lady
named Antonio Carlotta that does
a universally me podcast all
about the Universal monsters. And she is
(11:42):
the great grandniece of Carl
Laemmle, who founded Universal Studios and Universal
City. He literally founded the city as well, because the city was on the lot,
work and Live, and his son Junior, which is a whole fascinating story
in itself. He became the head of production, if that's the right title, when he
turned 21. And he was the big monster movie fan. So she
(12:04):
has just this incredible history of how the
monster movies came about and did an amazing job
of bringing Lugosi into that too. So even though we couldn't get Lynn
Lugosi, I feel like we've covered Bella really well. But she's great
on camera. She knows through stuff she has a blood
connection with Universal Studios. So I
(12:25):
kind of narrowed it down, Jody, into okay, Universal, because without them there'd be no
monster movies. The original Frankston, original Dracula, original Wolfman.
And that's kind of how it's laying out. But the interesting thing,
and this turned out to be a blessing, is with the absence of
Legosis on camera, I started thinking, you know what, what
else was really special about these monsters? Well, the makeup.
(12:48):
And turns out a gentleman named Jack Pierce was the
makeup artist forgotten to history in a large part. But I'm hoping this documentary
might enlighten people because he was a pioneer. He was amazing and
much to my thrill because he's one of my heroes. We were able to get
Rick Baker, who's a seven time Oscar
winner for makeup, to talk about Jack Pierce, who's one of
(13:10):
Rick Baker's heroes. So, you know, it just all kind of
came together and like you said, the story was much more laid out
than Rolly because I knew we would be doing these three or four things, but
everybody talked about everything and we just got some amazing stuff. Sarah told
me some incredible stuff about her dad that I never knew. Just, you know,
with acting and the Grinch, which a lot of people don't realize, that's Boris Karloff's
(13:31):
voice on the Grinch, and he won a Grammy for that. So,
yeah, it's just, you know, it's funny, you do these programs and
it takes a while, but you know this from your podcast, but then things kind
of fall into place. And I think that's part of the fun, is just
collecting all these puzzle pieces and then sitting down. It's a long process, but I
enjoy it. And just seeing how everything fits together, there's nothing better.
(13:53):
As far as professional work, I really enjoy it. Well, as I was doing
research into you before talking, that's what really
captured me about this. And what you're doing with film is the idea of
sitting down with Rollie. And I know you could
take every 20, 30 minutes of the conversation and make it a
podcast and people would be entertained, but you've got to approach it so
(14:16):
differently. I imagine, when it's a film, because it serves
a different purpose, people consume it in a different way.
And then that really got me interested in. My
goodness, Ken must be onto something that we can take
interviews and turn it into a good story. Okay,
so now bouncing back to Rollie. When you look at the finished product,
(14:39):
how much of the storyline do you feel was
in place before the conversations and how much came into play
after? I might say 80, 20, 20 before
the conversation, 80 after. Because Rollie just took me these
places that I never expected to go. And
a little tip for aspiring documentary makers out there
(15:02):
is there's nothing more valuable than a pre interview,
and it's not always easy to do. But if you could sit down with the
person that's going to be in your documentary, maybe with a zoom, little audio
recorder, if they're okay with that, and just get to know them,
you'll get more great information. Without a camera there, you'll
build a much better rapport, especially if you've never met them. So. So when you
(15:23):
do come in with cameras and lights and action and all that stuff, they know
you. You've stepped on some stories in the pre interview that you never
would have known about, and I've just gotten some great nuggets out of that.
And Roelly was the same way. We spent quite a bit of time together before.
He still surprised me during the interview, but I think in the documentary just got
to go in with open eyes and just know that. Don't stick to your
(15:45):
questions. You need to get things covered. But listen, I
think the biggest tendency, just my opinion, is people are
so set on these questions, they don't listen to what the
person's saying because if you let that person take you where they're
going, it's usually some of the best stuff you get. That's been my experience. At
least when you're having that conversation and it goes
(16:07):
somewhere you didn't expect, and there's that little twinge in your head
and you say, wait a minute, we need to know more about this.
What questions do you ask to go deeper into
whatever tidbit just came up? You know, I'll give you
a documentary secret. It's called
the Pregnant Pause. And if I asked your question
(16:30):
and you answered and then stopped, and I know you had
something else you wanted to say, but in your mind you're going, do I want
to share this or not? I would just remain quiet. And then there's this
little tension. Not a bad tension, but a tension that I'm not
saying anything. So that person would probably feel obligated
to continue talking. And that pregnant pause,
(16:52):
not, not in a bad way, but usually gives that person the space
to continue to talk. I'll bring up an example without naming the
interviewer's name, but I was listening an interview by Bruce Springsteen once. I
know how much you know about Bruce, but he's had a lot of mental health
struggles and he's very public about that. And he was going down this road
that I've never heard him go down before in a great way, explaining how he,
(17:15):
you know, does what he does. And the person interviewing him never
caught it and went on to question number two. And I, I was in my
car and I almost had to pull over going, oh my gosh, I'm big Bruce
fan. I've never heard him so close to really spilling his guts. And, you
know, he missed the person missed an opportunity that I think could have
led to something really well. But so again, it's that pregnant pause. If that
(17:36):
person would have just waited a second instead of jump on that next question,
the interviewee might have really gotten into something that they don't,
don't normally share in a public forum. So, you know,
a lot of people in on that pregnant pause. It's, it's a, actually, it's kind
of funny, but it's a really good tool and you get to go places. I'm
not sure I'm answering your questions. Then I let them just go. And as they,
(17:56):
you know, it's video and we cut in space and we're not shooting film, so
it's not expensive. You'll find when they're starting to kind of go a
little bit off where you think anything is going to be
valuable. And I try to be really open minded to that. And then you just
kind of, when they do stop, kind of just bring them back into the Fold.
You know, Ken Burns, who I really admire, does something really interesting, said, I'll
(18:17):
never ask someone to repeat something and make it
30 seconds instead of three minutes. And I learned from that. That's a really
smart thing because, you know, when they're in this free flow,
and I'm sure you find this out in your podcast all the time, you really
get some valuable stuff. And if you get this great thing that's too long for
your program and come back and say, well, tell me that in 30 seconds or
(18:38):
less, you're not going to get anything near what you already got. So, yeah,
it's. You know, it's. It's a. It's fun. I enjoy interviewing people.
I probably ask too many questions in real life, but I am who I am,
as Popeye would say. I've had family members
where I'll be asking them questions, and they'll say, I'm not on your
podcast. I
(19:00):
totally know what you're talking about. It's like, ken, why don't you ever tell us
anything about you? You're always asking questions. Well, you know, it's my career, I guess.
Well, if. If we go back to that pregnant pause,
do you think interviewers, whether it's a podcast or
filmmaker interviewers that miss the pregnant
pause, is it because they don't know what to do with silence, or they're
(19:22):
just too set on going to their next question? I think it's a little
bit of both, Jody. I think a lot of it, and I get it. You
go in with these questions, you have a half hour with this person and probably
not much more, and you've got 10 questions, and, you know, in
your mind, the story is A, B, C, D. And if I don't get
one of these pieces, it's going to fall apart. Well, that's never the case, at
(19:43):
least in my experience. You could always kind of juggle stuff around, as you know
from your podcast, to make things make sense. So I think it's.
I've only got X amount of time. I've got X amount of questions. And what
if he leaves and I'm only at number six? So I think it's that, and
a lot of it may be just not knowing that pregnant pause.
You know, it's funny if you watch 60 Minutes and there's a lot of editing
that, but you see a lot of pregnant pauses in 60 minutes, and it might
(20:06):
just be the cutting. You know, I say, blah, blah, blah. And then they cut
back to Ed Bradley, who's not around anymore, but used to be a 60 Minutes
guy, and then a shot of him just sitting there saying nothing, you know, so
I'm sure they use that more as a cutting device in that. But
I think it's a little bit of both. But I think people are just so
dialed into those questions. And I was too, way back when, and
I don't know which project it was, but I finally learned that, you know,
(20:28):
just let them go. I'll tell you a real quick story. I did a thing
called Lincoln's Greatest Speech, which was actually his second inaugural
address, not Gettysburg. And that's according to Lincoln himself and a gentleman named
Ron White, who's a Lincoln biographer, great guy. And we were fortunate enough to get
Richard Dreyfus, who's a big Lincoln fan, to do that. And
we did, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I said, okay, you guys, you're
(20:49):
both Lincoln fans, let's just sit you both down and have you talk about Lincoln.
And they were both horrified. You know, they, well, what are the
questions? What are we going to say? And I go, you know, don't worry about
it, we're going to roll. And you guys just go. And I don't think
they'd ever work that way. And I didn't have a list of questions. And you
know, what do you tell Richard Dreyfus to do? He's Richard Dreyfus. But it's, I
think it's the best part of that program. It's about eight minutes and there's just,
(21:12):
there's like two guys sitting at a bar talking about Lincoln. You know, they're having
fun and they're joking and they're making some great points. So again,
it's kind of that loosey goosey thing that's a little scary to
do. But I think you'll. I've found that I
get more than I ever expected when I really loosen the
reins a little bit and let things run a little bit wild. Because you can
(21:33):
always bring it back in with that. There are some
podcasts you may have listened to, some that go into
1, 2, 3 hours long. Well, my shows are
usually 30 minutes. What do you think
is missing? Because I've heard that some of the best
stuff on those interviews comes after an hour, after the
(21:56):
things you normally would say in an interview have been said. Then the good
stuff comes out. What do you think I miss
doing a 30 minute interview versus a 3 hour interview?
Probably more of that real personal, deep stuff. You know, it's. It's
a hard nut to crack. But again, going in prepared which you always do,
pre interview, if possible. Very time consuming, but again, having a little bit of
(22:19):
rapport, I think people loosen up. I think, you know,
we're always looking for that best question that they've never been asked before. And that's
always a tough one. There's a really good podcast called
wtf I don't know if you've ever heard of. It's a comedian named Marc Maron,
and it usually runs about an hour, 20 hour, 30 in fact, after 16 years
and almost 2,000 episodes, he's going to end this year, which is a shame.
(22:40):
But he has comedians, movie folks, directors, kind
of runs the gamut. But he doesn't call it an interview, he calls it a
conversation. And he does an incredible job
of going those places that I don't think a lot of these people have
ever gone before. And I think it's just this conversation.
He interrupts them, they interrupt him. It's not a, you know, ABCD thing.
(23:03):
And I think just that that veneer of an interview kind of melts away.
And. And again, it's like two people just sitting across from each other, you know,
having a glass of wine or a beer and just talking about life. And I
think that comes as you spend more time together.
It's interesting how people will open up. When it's a trust, we
both know that it's the people that trust you. Again, that's where a pre interview
(23:25):
and a little report comes in. But I think, I think you could build that
trust in a short amount of time and people will realize that you're genuine
and you're sincere. I always make it very clear that I'm never going to
use anything that we've recorded unless you approve it. When the monster show's done,
it will go out to everyone involved and make sure everybody's comfortable with it.
Rolly and Marie, his wife, took a look at it and signed on. And I
(23:46):
don't want to ever put anybody in an awkward position, but you know as well
as I do, building that trust is really key in kind of getting through the
veneer a little bit, I think with folks. One of the things that had me
thinking about this even before we were talking, I was listening to
a podcast that he does two or three hour
episodes, and I was just listening to some to see how
(24:07):
he did. What do they talk about? Dave Ramsey was his
guest and he started out asking, what's
the key to a good marriage? And I thought, well, that's interesting, because
given what Dave Ramsey is known for, if I was lucky enough
to have him on my show. I don't think that's the first thing I would
have asked. But knowing you have three hours,
(24:30):
you could start anywhere. Because if you ask a question
like that, that's so personal in the beginning, maybe it goes places
you never would have gone otherwise. Yeah, I think that's a great point.
And Mark Marin of the wtf, a lot of times he'll begin
with, who's your guys? So suddenly I ask you, who's your guys? And you
name off three or four people, and I know who you like. Probably. Probably music
(24:53):
wise, maybe acting wise, Disney wise. So that
gives the interviewer a lot of ammunition to go in
a lot of different directions. And if I know what music you like, what
books you like, what movies you like, suddenly I have a lot of cool
directions I could go in. And I think that's a really good trick that he
does. Just kind of catching people off guard. And it's kind of known now
(25:14):
that he does that. But it sure gives you more of an insight into who
they are personally. And I think that the. Yeah, the key to a good marriage,
that's a great one, too. You're going to really find out something about that. And
I think people being interviewed like that kind of stuff. It's, you know, they don't
like the same route questions, and where'd you grow up? And, you know, what was
your childhood like? I mean, those are important, but I don't think it's anything they
haven't visited before. So I totally get that. That's an interesting approach. I'm
(25:37):
glad you brought that up. All right, so we will go
back to filmmaking and storytelling. When you're
putting a film together, in the end, it turns out to be
this great story. What are the elements of a great
story? I think touching someone emotionally
is probably one of the biggest things. And making that
(25:59):
connection. I remember as much as anything at one of the
film festival screenings of Rollie's show, and Rollie did a Q
and A afterwards, and there was a young child in the front row,
probably about seven or eight, and Rollie was on stage, and
he was looking at Rollie like Rollie walked on water.
You know, here was this guy, and he'd sat through the documentary that built Disneyland
(26:22):
and new Walt Disney and, you know, blah, blah, blah. And this kid
was just mesmerized. And that was so fulfilling for me to.
To see this young person just thinking that, you know, what
Rollie had done was so great. Rollie was so great. And who Knows will
he go on to be an imagineer? I don't know. Maybe he'll just hold an
annual pass to Disneyland. But I think to touch people emotionally
(26:44):
is really the way to draw them in and to have them
emotionally participate. I think you got to tell a good story. That's a given. You
got to have interesting people on screen. I think that's what Ken Burns and his
group do so well. They find really good, interesting people to tell the story.
But I think you got to make that emotional connection. Disney pretty easy to make
Lincoln to some extent. I'm hoping there's a little
(27:06):
emotional connection with monsters. There's a good part of that show where
Sarah and Antonio talking about the humanization
of Frankenstein and Dracula and how people connected to
them. You know, Sarah says, you know, her dad got more
letters from children than anyone because they understood that the
creature was not a monster. He was a victim, and he was
(27:28):
so, you know, again, I'm hoping there's those pieces in
this. I think people enjoy the monster movies, but you can hit that emotional
cord and story. I think you've got an audience that'll be pretty interested
in what you're doing, hopefully. Yeah, that is great.
Now, Epic Universe just opened in Orlando, and
of course, the monsters are a big feature. So do you plan on going
(27:50):
to Epic to visit your monsters? I hope so. I've
heard wonderful things about, actually Antonio, who was. Who's in the documentary.
She was there for the grand opening and some sort of guest of honor. So
she's been talking about it on her podcast. Yeah, it sounds
amazing. I really want to go. And you know what? I just found online yesterday
that there's a new Frankenstein movie coming out. And the trailer, if you want to
(28:12):
check it out, just released on Netflix and Guillermo del Toro is
directing it. And if you get a chance to watch it, it's very
close to the original story. It looks pretty mind blowing. So I think in
between Orlando and then Guillermo, who's a huge Boris
Karloff fan doing this movie, I think the monsters are on the rise. So
hopefully this documentary hits it a good point. And, you know,
(28:33):
people's. People's attention to monsters is higher than it's been
since 1931. Yeah, it seems like
great timing for your documentary to come out with everything
else going on. I have not been
yet. I've not been. Yeah, I'm anxious here.
Hopefully this year I have a chance to go. I'm in Orlando all the time,
(28:56):
but I. I haven't been there since it opened. So. Ken And I had
the chance to. Well, I didn't realize that's what we were doing. The
first time we talked, we had a pre call about something else.
And then before recording today, we. We had a good
conversation. And so, Ken, I. I feel now, I feel that
on what you were saying about how a pre call, which I.
(29:19):
I rarely do, but I typically only have people on the show that I
already know, so maybe I don't need to do it, but I actually feel
that because in this chance we had to talk
before we started recording, finding out about you moving to Montana
and all the other stuff that you're working on. But the thing that
caught my attention, there were two things that I told you where
(29:41):
you right away said, oh, that would be a good film. And
so it makes me wonder. You seem to always be on the lookout for
your next film.
Yeah, I've got a little bit of a list. You know, it's just. It's something
I'll probably do as long as I physically can. You know, I tend to
finance my own documentaries, so I don't really like to spend a lot of
(30:03):
time trying to raise money and all that. I do them very inexpensively because I
do most of the work myself, which may be a good thing, maybe a bad
thing. I don't know. Yeah, I think there's so many amazing stories out there.
And just like the one you brought earlier that we were chatting before the
interview about, I had the Grizzly, the gentleman. Who's Doug
Peacock? Grizzly, yeah, yeah, Doug Peacock. I'm sorry, I forgot his name.
(30:25):
There's so many cool stories out there. And I think it's important probably
to my mental acuity to keep doing stuff that keeps my
noggin moving a little bit. I think I mentioned this to you too. I'm
thinking as I end up spending more time up here in Montana,
there's so many amazing stories up here, mostly artistic.
There's an incredible amount of artists up here, really good ones. And I.
(30:46):
I'd like to do like a Montana minute, maybe three, four minute
segments of these individual artists. Again, just to kind of
get more involved in the state and what goes on here. But also the art
they're doing is incredible. And I'd like to hopefully if they're. I could get a
following, you know, be able to post something, maybe every month, a video on YouTube
or Vimeo or wherever it ends up that maybe people in the state might be
(31:08):
interested in, even outside scene. Because I'm just blown away by the artwork up here,
you know, it's very western oriented and I, it's nothing like I've ever seen. I,
I would love to meet some of these folks and help get their, their work
seen by more people. Yeah, that is such a fun idea and a way to
connect you to your new home too. And there are
so many wonderful stories I was telling Ken
(31:30):
before how much I've traveled in Montana and I feel
like I can never be done with Montana. There are so many
stories, there's so much history everywhere you go,
there's a new story in the land to learn. Like Bannack State
park, which is a ghost town that is now a state park. And you
visit and it's just like everyone in town got up and walked out
(31:53):
on the same day, leaving everything behind and they were able to preserve it as
a state park. Well, most people don't know about places like that
and they're Grant Coors Ranch. And there's just so many great
stories in Montana that Ken, I think you're going to be stimulated
and surprised with all the stories the land and the people in Montana
have for you. There's an old show that was pretty well known as a guy
(32:15):
named Huell Howser and it was on PBS called California
Gold and it was a half hour show. But he would go around California, find
these kind of little known, lesser known stories and he did a great job of
hosting it. But I'd love to do something like that up here. I mean it
would get me out and about. I like to do still photography too, which is
always, you know, I always got the still camera kind of on my hip just
in case, but a great chance to get to know the state and the people.
(32:38):
And I don't think I'm, I'm ambitious enough to do a half hour show every
month. But even like you say, the, the ghost town, what a fast, you know,
find someone like a ranger or someone who's very well versed in it and
shoot and hear stories and shoot the town and just, you know,
show these people that don't know about these things, these great treasures that are in
the state that they ought to make a visit to and check out. Yeah,
(33:00):
it's, it's just, I like telling stories. I got a, a friend who did
a great series. He, he used to work on NBC
News, but he, I forget the name of it, but he basically would, when he
would travel, he would sit down with people on planes
and basically interview them. Very almost pre interviewish.
And he said out of those trips he got a lot of little I think
(33:23):
it might have been the next seat over or something. He got these little news
stories that would air occasionally on NBC News of this fascinating
person that he just happened to sit by on a plane that had this amazing
story. You know, we've all got these stories, but unfortunately we don't have
a way to tell it. Yeah, I thought that was a really good idea. Well,
here's a podcast idea I've had for years and have never done
(33:43):
called Sidewalk Stories, where I just go into town and
grab someone off the sidewalk. Ask, can I interview you for 20
minutes? And because everybody has a good story, you just have to get it
out of them. You're exactly right. That would be a great idea. I mean,
you just. Who knows what you would stumble across? Everybody's got an
amazing story somewhere in their life. Yeah, that's right. Well,
(34:05):
Ken, I was telling you about books before we started
recording. I've got one more for you, and I'll mention it here
because I absolutely love the book. It is called the Lost Grizzlies by
Rick Bass. And it's about Rick Bass and Doug Peacock
searching for grizzly bears in Colorado which have been extinct for a long
time, but there's always been rumors of sightings, and
(34:29):
so they go out looking for them together. And it is a fabulous story. And
both Rick Vass and Doug Peacock are practically your neighbors now that
you're in Montana. So there's another good book for you, Ken.
I know people are going to be fascinated with you. Where can we find out
more about you and what you're up to? Oh, well, thank you. You're a good
interviewer. This has been really fun. So thank you, Jody. That's. Yeah,
(34:51):
you asked really good questions. So thanks for making it so, so enjoyable.
I just. It's kenkebo.com k e n k e b o
w.com a long time ago, a marketing friend said, you know, just take everything and
put it in one place, you know, and it turned out to be really good
advice from her. So everything's there. Yeah. And
hopefully sometime next year we'll have a
(35:12):
monster show. One thing for people, because I know you have a Disney a lot
of people are interested in Disney is the Rolly documentary used to be on Vimeo
for a fee. And when Rolly passed away, I just made it public. So if
anyone wants to see the whimsical imagineer who's interested in roller
Disneyland that's free on Vimeo, so they can just go on and type in the
whimsical Imagineer and it should be up there for him. But, you know, for me,
(35:33):
it's I'm not really in this to make money. It would be great to
have some of these, you know, go further than film festivals. But I really just
like telling stories like Rollies. And again, he had such an impact when
he said, ken, when I'm gone, my stories are gone. And I know I didn't
get all of them, but, you know, it's nice to know that maybe I've helped
keep his legacy alive to some way. So everything's on the website, probably stuff you
(35:54):
can care less about, but there's a couple good things on there, too. All right,
wonderful. Thank you so much, Ken. And thank you for listening to the
Jody Mayberry Show.
He'll give you a fair go. It's Sugar J.
Foreign.
Welcome to the Jody Mayberry Show. I'm so pleased
this episode to bring you, well, someone that's become a new
friend. Ken Kebo. He is a documentary
filmmaker and I think you're really going to like some of the work he's done,
which we will talk about. But first, I'll introduce you to Ken.
(00:21):
Hello, Ken. Jody, it's great to meet you. We are
just embarking on a new friendship, but we've had some great talks and looking
forward to getting to know you better and hopefully getting together one of these days.
Oh, my goodness. We're going to record now over zoom, but soon
we will be recording in person in Montana.
I have an open door policy here, so anytime you want. Well,
(00:43):
Ken, I have to say I really enjoyed checking out
your work. There's two of the documentaries I've looked into, by the
way. I have always had a really hard time saying the word
documentary. I practiced a lot before this, but
that is what, like one of everybody, I think, has one or two words they
have trouble saying. That is one of mine. So I had to practice a lot.
(01:06):
You did great. We could just call them docs from now on. Okay, there we
go. We'll just call them docs. Okay. So I know you've done a lot of
great work. The two that I'm really fascinated with.
One's older, one is new and we can talk about either one. But
I. I think the newer one is relevant with something
that just opened in Orlando. We'll come to that. The first one,
(01:28):
the film you did on Rolly Crump. Oh,
my goodness, that had to just be so much fun. What a
great experience. Rolly was a one of a kind.
It was kind of interesting how it all happened. I was having breakfast
with my mom and she goes, hey, you should do a documentary. A guy that
worked on Disneyland, he worked on A Small World. And I had this vision of
(01:51):
some guy in the back, you know, building flats and stuff. And she goes, a
friend of hers was dating Rollie at the time. She goes, yeah, his name's Rolly
Crump. Look him up. No idea. Big Disneyland fan, but never knew who Rolly
was. And I was just blown away when I went home and researched
him. I'm going, oh, my gosh, this guy is the real deal.
And met Rolly and developed a friendship.
(02:12):
And just one of those people, besides being probably the best storyteller I've
ever met, met just a great person to
be with and listen to and learn from. And just a
genuinely, incredibly nice and just amazing
person, just an amazing guy. Given how much
he talked, how many stories he told, and you
(02:34):
only have so much film you can make. What
I am most curious about with that is how.
Well, this is two part. I'll wind it up and you can go with it
as much as you want. So this is what I'm. I'm curious about.
One is beforehand, do you put
what you think will be the story together in your head on paper
(02:57):
before you start talking to him? And then two, when
there is someone that has all those stories
and tells most of them, how do you decide what
to cut out and. And what to leave in to make the film?
That's a great question, Jody. In this case,
Rolly's life had so many different episodes. You know, Knott's
(03:20):
Disney, he worked with the Cousteaus on stuff. I mean, it
just. It's all over the board. So I just went in with a lot of
questions and what happened was I realized as I
started to put it together that there's enough here just for a
Disney show easily, and then some. And what happened that was funny,
Jodi? First of all, I must have asked. We interviewed really for about eight hours,
(03:41):
and I must have asked maybe four or five questions in those eight hours because
he would just go on these beautiful stories that would segue into
the next question. And it was just the easiest interview I've ever done.
He was so good on camera. But when I got back with all the footage
and started looking at it, I realized that, you know what,
each of these attractions that Rollie worked on is its own
(04:03):
beginning, middle and end. So I like the under 40
minute documentaries. That's short documentaries at film festivals and stuff. But I realized
that I initially went into one big 30 about Disneyland, but
I said this is three or four minute segments. I think
there's six or seven in the show that tell Rollie's stories because each one did
have a very definite beginning, middle and end. And, you know, it's
(04:25):
funny when you. It's such a good question, Jodi, because you never really know going
into it. You know, you can't really script a documentary. You can outline and, you
know, three by five cards and all that. But I can tell you, Roll is
a perfect example how getting into the edit room and look and listening and playing
with the footage for months that when it really
finally comes on a little light bulb and goes, this is how it's all going
(04:47):
to fit together. And I think that's one of the parts I enjoy the most
about it. Your Other part of the question, and you and I have talked about
this briefly, is. And it's on the list of projects. You know, Rollie and I
talk for eight hours. And there's so much else about him that's
not in the show. I mean, he has stories about being with
Steve Wynn in Vegas when he. Steve Wynn was first there and on the frontier
(05:07):
downtown, and Rollie was doing murals on the wall. I mean, just. He's kind of
like a zelig of, you know, all these people he's worked with and met.
And I. I'm thinking that those segments,
hopefully down the road shortly, would be a great podcast
again. Rollie is so good. I've got a couple other people, Bob Gurr, I'm sure
you're familiar with, and. And Chris Crump, Rollie Son, and some other folks that
(05:30):
I think we could put together a really good podcast, maybe five, six segments about
these other phases of Rollie's life. Because the stories are just as interesting,
they're just as funny, they're just as amazing. And again, you know,
Rolu is such a good storyteller, I think. I think it'd be a
good show. There's one. I'll give you a little spoiler alert. There's one where he
went out. He's going to do an undersea world adventure with the cost
(05:50):
Cousteaus. And he went with Jacques Cousteau, and I think one of the sons was
Jack and some other folks all off the coast of somewhere. It's in the tape,
but I don't remember shot this while ago. And they literally. I guess I'm
okay saying this, they drank so much on the boat, the Cousteaus almost
could not get the boat find their way back to port. And I'm just
going, yo, here's these renowned seamen adrift, full of alcohol out
(06:12):
somewhere. And it's just those kind of stories that, you know, no one
would ever know if it wasn't for Rolly telling them. And one interesting thing, Jody,
then I'll shut up. But Rolly said, when we start working on the
documenting, Ken, I have all these stories, and when I'm gone, the stories are
gone with me. So I. I'm just so thankful to Rolly and Marie and Chris
Crump that we sat down with Rollie because we do have all these
(06:33):
stories now that he's passed away. So there's a lot more there. So
it's pretty close to the top of the list after a couple things I'm working
on now. But I'm looking forward to maybe taking a dive into the world of
podcasting as well. And I think that might be a good project for it. Oh,
I think so. People are going to love those stories and
the gift that you. You are able to give because
(06:54):
you sat down with him and. And recorded them. And I'll tell
you this, we need to talk about you mostly, Kim. But I'll tell you one
of my big regrets I've had. I got. I had the
chance to get to know Ron Logan very well. He was the executive
vice president of live entertainment for all of Disney
Worldwide. And we got to know each other really well.
(07:16):
And I would spend hours sitting in his office listening
to him tell stories. And then he unexpectedly
passed away. And I've always kicked myself that we didn't
record any of those for no good reason we didn't record other than we were
just having normal conversations and never recorded it. And
there's so many times I've thought, I wish I had that story from Ron
(07:38):
Nashir. Yes, I can tell it. But he was such a good
storyteller. I wish I had his voice telling it. And that's
what you've done with this collection of Raleigh stories that you have.
I've been so fortunate. And it kind of worked out really well because
having done the documentary, I had a little bit of contact with
Disney, and when they needed Rolly interviewed for the
(08:01):
anniversary of the Haunted Mansion, they asked me to go over and do that sort
of thing. So it also led to much more from Rollie
than just the documentary. And again, you know, I think
when they're working on the Imagineer show for Disney Channel, I did a little
work with him. And there's also another gentleman whose name escapes me. And I've done
some interviews with Rollie. So, you know, it's so important, Jodi, like you
(08:23):
say, it's. And I've been guilty of the same thing you have, but I've gotten
smarter about it, carry a little zoom around because, yeah, those stories are
just priceless. And hearing them, as you mentioned, from
the person who actually experienced them, if they're especially a good storyteller,
there's nothing like it. So, yeah, I'm with you. I try and be really good.
I tell everybody, tape your grandma and grandpa, tape your mom and dad, just,
(08:44):
you know, when you're sitting down, because that's invaluable stuff and
it's easy to do nowadays. Doesn't take a lot of equipment or, you know, a
lot of microphones or anything like that. But you'll treasure that. And your kids and
their kids and their grandkids will treasure those, even those personal family moments
forever. Yeah, they certainly will. Okay, so
you did this great film about Rollie, the newer one, and
(09:06):
I think we could talk all episode about that one. But,
yeah, I. There's one thing I'm really interested in, and that is
how you tell a story through film or using film to tell
stories. So with Roelly, you talk to him, and then
you saw how the story came together. Now, your newest film,
I know, is a passion project of yours, Universal Monsters,
(09:29):
and you can tell us more about that. And then I'm curious
how you told that story, because it's not like you were interviewing
monsters and you see where it went that one. Maybe you got to put a
story together ahead of time. Yes, that's a very good point, Jodi,
and that's very observant of you, I'll admit. I'm a Disney nerd
and a monster nerd. You know, the beauty of now being
(09:52):
mostly retired from client work is I could do projects that are more
personal, and I'm interested, and I think that's what fuels anyone. I'm sure you could
agree that's, you know, having that passion for something to get it finished. Yes. So
I've always loved the Universal Monsters. And right
before COVID was the 90th anniversary of the original
Dracula and Frankenstein, 1931. So
(10:14):
2021. So we were working on the project
and got sidelined by Covid. So we're looking at next year,
2026, as the 95th anniversary of those two originals,
and hopefully I could get it wrapped up and ready to go for next year.
So it's just one of those funny things where the stars line up. I said,
okay, gotta talk to Karloff, gotta talk to Chaney, gotta talk to
(10:36):
Lugosi. Found. So, you know, thank goodness for the
Internet. Found Sarah Karloff, Boris's daughter, and
Ron Chaney, Lon Chaney's grandson and
great grandson. There are two, Lon Chaney's father and son that are both amazing.
We lived about 10 minutes from each other in California. So,
you know, when. When does that kind of happen? So for production budget, it was
(10:58):
great. One day, shoot, we get them both. Tried to get the Lugosi,
Lynn Lugosi, who is a great granddaughter of original Bela
Lugosi, and her dad's named Bella as well. And we just couldn't coordinate. She's got
a lot going on. So I was disappointed in that because I had this idea
for you Know, a big headline. Karlov, Cheney,
Lugosi, all on the screen at the same time for the first time, you know,
(11:20):
which didn't happen, but it was really interesting and had
a great interview with Sarah, great interview with Ron Chaney, great discussions with
Lynn, but again, we just couldn't coordinate time. I found a young lady
named Antonio Carlotta that does
a universally me podcast all
about the Universal monsters. And she is
(11:42):
the great grandniece of Carl
Laemmle, who founded Universal Studios and Universal
City. He literally founded the city as well, because the city was on the lot,
work and Live, and his son Junior, which is a whole fascinating story
in itself. He became the head of production, if that's the right title, when he
turned 21. And he was the big monster movie fan. So she
(12:04):
has just this incredible history of how the
monster movies came about and did an amazing job
of bringing Lugosi into that too. So even though we couldn't get Lynn
Lugosi, I feel like we've covered Bella really well. But she's great
on camera. She knows through stuff she has a blood
connection with Universal Studios. So I
(12:25):
kind of narrowed it down, Jody, into okay, Universal, because without them there'd be no
monster movies. The original Frankston, original Dracula, original Wolfman.
And that's kind of how it's laying out. But the interesting thing,
and this turned out to be a blessing, is with the absence of
Legosis on camera, I started thinking, you know what, what
else was really special about these monsters? Well, the makeup.
(12:48):
And turns out a gentleman named Jack Pierce was the
makeup artist forgotten to history in a large part. But I'm hoping this documentary
might enlighten people because he was a pioneer. He was amazing and
much to my thrill because he's one of my heroes. We were able to get
Rick Baker, who's a seven time Oscar
winner for makeup, to talk about Jack Pierce, who's one of
(13:10):
Rick Baker's heroes. So, you know, it just all kind of
came together and like you said, the story was much more laid out
than Rolly because I knew we would be doing these three or four things, but
everybody talked about everything and we just got some amazing stuff. Sarah told
me some incredible stuff about her dad that I never knew. Just, you know,
with acting and the Grinch, which a lot of people don't realize, that's Boris Karloff's
(13:31):
voice on the Grinch, and he won a Grammy for that. So,
yeah, it's just, you know, it's funny, you do these programs and
it takes a while, but you know this from your podcast, but then things kind
of fall into place. And I think that's part of the fun, is just
collecting all these puzzle pieces and then sitting down. It's a long process, but I
enjoy it. And just seeing how everything fits together, there's nothing better.
(13:53):
As far as professional work, I really enjoy it. Well, as I was doing
research into you before talking, that's what really
captured me about this. And what you're doing with film is the idea of
sitting down with Rollie. And I know you could
take every 20, 30 minutes of the conversation and make it a
podcast and people would be entertained, but you've got to approach it so
(14:16):
differently. I imagine, when it's a film, because it serves
a different purpose, people consume it in a different way.
And then that really got me interested in. My
goodness, Ken must be onto something that we can take
interviews and turn it into a good story. Okay,
so now bouncing back to Rollie. When you look at the finished product,
(14:39):
how much of the storyline do you feel was
in place before the conversations and how much came into play
after? I might say 80, 20, 20 before
the conversation, 80 after. Because Rollie just took me these
places that I never expected to go. And
a little tip for aspiring documentary makers out there
(15:02):
is there's nothing more valuable than a pre interview,
and it's not always easy to do. But if you could sit down with the
person that's going to be in your documentary, maybe with a zoom, little audio
recorder, if they're okay with that, and just get to know them,
you'll get more great information. Without a camera there, you'll
build a much better rapport, especially if you've never met them. So. So when you
(15:23):
do come in with cameras and lights and action and all that stuff, they know
you. You've stepped on some stories in the pre interview that you never
would have known about, and I've just gotten some great nuggets out of that.
And Roelly was the same way. We spent quite a bit of time together before.
He still surprised me during the interview, but I think in the documentary just got
to go in with open eyes and just know that. Don't stick to your
(15:45):
questions. You need to get things covered. But listen, I
think the biggest tendency, just my opinion, is people are
so set on these questions, they don't listen to what the
person's saying because if you let that person take you where they're
going, it's usually some of the best stuff you get. That's been my experience. At
least when you're having that conversation and it goes
(16:07):
somewhere you didn't expect, and there's that little twinge in your head
and you say, wait a minute, we need to know more about this.
What questions do you ask to go deeper into
whatever tidbit just came up? You know, I'll give you
a documentary secret. It's called
the Pregnant Pause. And if I asked your question
(16:30):
and you answered and then stopped, and I know you had
something else you wanted to say, but in your mind you're going, do I want
to share this or not? I would just remain quiet. And then there's this
little tension. Not a bad tension, but a tension that I'm not
saying anything. So that person would probably feel obligated
to continue talking. And that pregnant pause,
(16:52):
not, not in a bad way, but usually gives that person the space
to continue to talk. I'll bring up an example without naming the
interviewer's name, but I was listening an interview by Bruce Springsteen once. I
know how much you know about Bruce, but he's had a lot of mental health
struggles and he's very public about that. And he was going down this road
that I've never heard him go down before in a great way, explaining how he,
(17:15):
you know, does what he does. And the person interviewing him never
caught it and went on to question number two. And I, I was in my
car and I almost had to pull over going, oh my gosh, I'm big Bruce
fan. I've never heard him so close to really spilling his guts. And, you
know, he missed the person missed an opportunity that I think could have
led to something really well. But so again, it's that pregnant pause. If that
(17:36):
person would have just waited a second instead of jump on that next question,
the interviewee might have really gotten into something that they don't,
don't normally share in a public forum. So, you know,
a lot of people in on that pregnant pause. It's, it's a, actually, it's kind
of funny, but it's a really good tool and you get to go places. I'm
not sure I'm answering your questions. Then I let them just go. And as they,
(17:56):
you know, it's video and we cut in space and we're not shooting film, so
it's not expensive. You'll find when they're starting to kind of go a
little bit off where you think anything is going to be
valuable. And I try to be really open minded to that. And then you just
kind of, when they do stop, kind of just bring them back into the Fold.
You know, Ken Burns, who I really admire, does something really interesting, said, I'll
(18:17):
never ask someone to repeat something and make it
30 seconds instead of three minutes. And I learned from that. That's a really
smart thing because, you know, when they're in this free flow,
and I'm sure you find this out in your podcast all the time, you really
get some valuable stuff. And if you get this great thing that's too long for
your program and come back and say, well, tell me that in 30 seconds or
(18:38):
less, you're not going to get anything near what you already got. So, yeah,
it's. You know, it's. It's a. It's fun. I enjoy interviewing people.
I probably ask too many questions in real life, but I am who I am,
as Popeye would say. I've had family members
where I'll be asking them questions, and they'll say, I'm not on your
podcast. I
(19:00):
totally know what you're talking about. It's like, ken, why don't you ever tell us
anything about you? You're always asking questions. Well, you know, it's my career, I guess.
Well, if. If we go back to that pregnant pause,
do you think interviewers, whether it's a podcast or
filmmaker interviewers that miss the pregnant
pause, is it because they don't know what to do with silence, or they're
(19:22):
just too set on going to their next question? I think it's a little
bit of both, Jody. I think a lot of it, and I get it. You
go in with these questions, you have a half hour with this person and probably
not much more, and you've got 10 questions, and, you know, in
your mind, the story is A, B, C, D. And if I don't get
one of these pieces, it's going to fall apart. Well, that's never the case, at
(19:43):
least in my experience. You could always kind of juggle stuff around, as you know
from your podcast, to make things make sense. So I think it's.
I've only got X amount of time. I've got X amount of questions. And what
if he leaves and I'm only at number six? So I think it's that, and
a lot of it may be just not knowing that pregnant pause.
You know, it's funny if you watch 60 Minutes and there's a lot of editing
that, but you see a lot of pregnant pauses in 60 minutes, and it might
(20:06):
just be the cutting. You know, I say, blah, blah, blah. And then they cut
back to Ed Bradley, who's not around anymore, but used to be a 60 Minutes
guy, and then a shot of him just sitting there saying nothing, you know, so
I'm sure they use that more as a cutting device in that. But
I think it's a little bit of both. But I think people are just so
dialed into those questions. And I was too, way back when, and
I don't know which project it was, but I finally learned that, you know,
(20:28):
just let them go. I'll tell you a real quick story. I did a thing
called Lincoln's Greatest Speech, which was actually his second inaugural
address, not Gettysburg. And that's according to Lincoln himself and a gentleman named
Ron White, who's a Lincoln biographer, great guy. And we were fortunate enough to get
Richard Dreyfus, who's a big Lincoln fan, to do that. And
we did, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I said, okay, you guys, you're
(20:49):
both Lincoln fans, let's just sit you both down and have you talk about Lincoln.
And they were both horrified. You know, they, well, what are the
questions? What are we going to say? And I go, you know, don't worry about
it, we're going to roll. And you guys just go. And I don't think
they'd ever work that way. And I didn't have a list of questions. And you
know, what do you tell Richard Dreyfus to do? He's Richard Dreyfus. But it's, I
think it's the best part of that program. It's about eight minutes and there's just,
(21:12):
there's like two guys sitting at a bar talking about Lincoln. You know, they're having
fun and they're joking and they're making some great points. So again,
it's kind of that loosey goosey thing that's a little scary to
do. But I think you'll. I've found that I
get more than I ever expected when I really loosen the
reins a little bit and let things run a little bit wild. Because you can
(21:33):
always bring it back in with that. There are some
podcasts you may have listened to, some that go into
1, 2, 3 hours long. Well, my shows are
usually 30 minutes. What do you think
is missing? Because I've heard that some of the best
stuff on those interviews comes after an hour, after the
(21:56):
things you normally would say in an interview have been said. Then the good
stuff comes out. What do you think I miss
doing a 30 minute interview versus a 3 hour interview?
Probably more of that real personal, deep stuff. You know, it's. It's
a hard nut to crack. But again, going in prepared which you always do,
pre interview, if possible. Very time consuming, but again, having a little bit of
(22:19):
rapport, I think people loosen up. I think, you know,
we're always looking for that best question that they've never been asked before. And that's
always a tough one. There's a really good podcast called
wtf I don't know if you've ever heard of. It's a comedian named Marc Maron,
and it usually runs about an hour, 20 hour, 30 in fact, after 16 years
and almost 2,000 episodes, he's going to end this year, which is a shame.
(22:40):
But he has comedians, movie folks, directors, kind
of runs the gamut. But he doesn't call it an interview, he calls it a
conversation. And he does an incredible job
of going those places that I don't think a lot of these people have
ever gone before. And I think it's just this conversation.
He interrupts them, they interrupt him. It's not a, you know, ABCD thing.
(23:03):
And I think just that that veneer of an interview kind of melts away.
And. And again, it's like two people just sitting across from each other, you know,
having a glass of wine or a beer and just talking about life. And I
think that comes as you spend more time together.
It's interesting how people will open up. When it's a trust, we
both know that it's the people that trust you. Again, that's where a pre interview
(23:25):
and a little report comes in. But I think, I think you could build that
trust in a short amount of time and people will realize that you're genuine
and you're sincere. I always make it very clear that I'm never going to
use anything that we've recorded unless you approve it. When the monster show's done,
it will go out to everyone involved and make sure everybody's comfortable with it.
Rolly and Marie, his wife, took a look at it and signed on. And I
(23:46):
don't want to ever put anybody in an awkward position, but you know as well
as I do, building that trust is really key in kind of getting through the
veneer a little bit, I think with folks. One of the things that had me
thinking about this even before we were talking, I was listening to
a podcast that he does two or three hour
episodes, and I was just listening to some to see how
(24:07):
he did. What do they talk about? Dave Ramsey was his
guest and he started out asking, what's
the key to a good marriage? And I thought, well, that's interesting, because
given what Dave Ramsey is known for, if I was lucky enough
to have him on my show. I don't think that's the first thing I would
have asked. But knowing you have three hours,
(24:30):
you could start anywhere. Because if you ask a question
like that, that's so personal in the beginning, maybe it goes places
you never would have gone otherwise. Yeah, I think that's a great point.
And Mark Marin of the wtf, a lot of times he'll begin
with, who's your guys? So suddenly I ask you, who's your guys? And you
name off three or four people, and I know who you like. Probably. Probably music
(24:53):
wise, maybe acting wise, Disney wise. So that
gives the interviewer a lot of ammunition to go in
a lot of different directions. And if I know what music you like, what
books you like, what movies you like, suddenly I have a lot of cool
directions I could go in. And I think that's a really good trick that he
does. Just kind of catching people off guard. And it's kind of known now
(25:14):
that he does that. But it sure gives you more of an insight into who
they are personally. And I think that the. Yeah, the key to a good marriage,
that's a great one, too. You're going to really find out something about that. And
I think people being interviewed like that kind of stuff. It's, you know, they don't
like the same route questions, and where'd you grow up? And, you know, what was
your childhood like? I mean, those are important, but I don't think it's anything they
haven't visited before. So I totally get that. That's an interesting approach. I'm
(25:37):
glad you brought that up. All right, so we will go
back to filmmaking and storytelling. When you're
putting a film together, in the end, it turns out to be
this great story. What are the elements of a great
story? I think touching someone emotionally
is probably one of the biggest things. And making that
(25:59):
connection. I remember as much as anything at one of the
film festival screenings of Rollie's show, and Rollie did a Q
and A afterwards, and there was a young child in the front row,
probably about seven or eight, and Rollie was on stage, and
he was looking at Rollie like Rollie walked on water.
You know, here was this guy, and he'd sat through the documentary that built Disneyland
(26:22):
and new Walt Disney and, you know, blah, blah, blah. And this kid
was just mesmerized. And that was so fulfilling for me to.
To see this young person just thinking that, you know, what
Rollie had done was so great. Rollie was so great. And who Knows will
he go on to be an imagineer? I don't know. Maybe he'll just hold an
annual pass to Disneyland. But I think to touch people emotionally
(26:44):
is really the way to draw them in and to have them
emotionally participate. I think you got to tell a good story. That's a given. You
got to have interesting people on screen. I think that's what Ken Burns and his
group do so well. They find really good, interesting people to tell the story.
But I think you got to make that emotional connection. Disney pretty easy to make
Lincoln to some extent. I'm hoping there's a little
(27:06):
emotional connection with monsters. There's a good part of that show where
Sarah and Antonio talking about the humanization
of Frankenstein and Dracula and how people connected to
them. You know, Sarah says, you know, her dad got more
letters from children than anyone because they understood that the
creature was not a monster. He was a victim, and he was
(27:28):
so, you know, again, I'm hoping there's those pieces in
this. I think people enjoy the monster movies, but you can hit that emotional
cord and story. I think you've got an audience that'll be pretty interested
in what you're doing, hopefully. Yeah, that is great.
Now, Epic Universe just opened in Orlando, and
of course, the monsters are a big feature. So do you plan on going
(27:50):
to Epic to visit your monsters? I hope so. I've
heard wonderful things about, actually Antonio, who was. Who's in the documentary.
She was there for the grand opening and some sort of guest of honor. So
she's been talking about it on her podcast. Yeah, it sounds
amazing. I really want to go. And you know what? I just found online yesterday
that there's a new Frankenstein movie coming out. And the trailer, if you want to
(28:12):
check it out, just released on Netflix and Guillermo del Toro is
directing it. And if you get a chance to watch it, it's very
close to the original story. It looks pretty mind blowing. So I think in
between Orlando and then Guillermo, who's a huge Boris
Karloff fan doing this movie, I think the monsters are on the rise. So
hopefully this documentary hits it a good point. And, you know,
(28:33):
people's. People's attention to monsters is higher than it's been
since 1931. Yeah, it seems like
great timing for your documentary to come out with everything
else going on. I have not been
yet. I've not been. Yeah, I'm anxious here.
Hopefully this year I have a chance to go. I'm in Orlando all the time,
(28:56):
but I. I haven't been there since it opened. So. Ken And I had
the chance to. Well, I didn't realize that's what we were doing. The
first time we talked, we had a pre call about something else.
And then before recording today, we. We had a good
conversation. And so, Ken, I. I feel now, I feel that
on what you were saying about how a pre call, which I.
(29:19):
I rarely do, but I typically only have people on the show that I
already know, so maybe I don't need to do it, but I actually feel
that because in this chance we had to talk
before we started recording, finding out about you moving to Montana
and all the other stuff that you're working on. But the thing that
caught my attention, there were two things that I told you where
(29:41):
you right away said, oh, that would be a good film. And
so it makes me wonder. You seem to always be on the lookout for
your next film.
Yeah, I've got a little bit of a list. You know, it's just. It's something
I'll probably do as long as I physically can. You know, I tend to
finance my own documentaries, so I don't really like to spend a lot of
(30:03):
time trying to raise money and all that. I do them very inexpensively because I
do most of the work myself, which may be a good thing, maybe a bad
thing. I don't know. Yeah, I think there's so many amazing stories out there.
And just like the one you brought earlier that we were chatting before the
interview about, I had the Grizzly, the gentleman. Who's Doug
Peacock? Grizzly, yeah, yeah, Doug Peacock. I'm sorry, I forgot his name.
(30:25):
There's so many cool stories out there. And I think it's important probably
to my mental acuity to keep doing stuff that keeps my
noggin moving a little bit. I think I mentioned this to you too. I'm
thinking as I end up spending more time up here in Montana,
there's so many amazing stories up here, mostly artistic.
There's an incredible amount of artists up here, really good ones. And I.
(30:46):
I'd like to do like a Montana minute, maybe three, four minute
segments of these individual artists. Again, just to kind of
get more involved in the state and what goes on here. But also the art
they're doing is incredible. And I'd like to hopefully if they're. I could get a
following, you know, be able to post something, maybe every month, a video on YouTube
or Vimeo or wherever it ends up that maybe people in the state might be
(31:08):
interested in, even outside scene. Because I'm just blown away by the artwork up here,
you know, it's very western oriented and I, it's nothing like I've ever seen. I,
I would love to meet some of these folks and help get their, their work
seen by more people. Yeah, that is such a fun idea and a way to
connect you to your new home too. And there are
so many wonderful stories I was telling Ken
(31:30):
before how much I've traveled in Montana and I feel
like I can never be done with Montana. There are so many
stories, there's so much history everywhere you go,
there's a new story in the land to learn. Like Bannack State
park, which is a ghost town that is now a state park. And you
visit and it's just like everyone in town got up and walked out
(31:53):
on the same day, leaving everything behind and they were able to preserve it as
a state park. Well, most people don't know about places like that
and they're Grant Coors Ranch. And there's just so many great
stories in Montana that Ken, I think you're going to be stimulated
and surprised with all the stories the land and the people in Montana
have for you. There's an old show that was pretty well known as a guy
(32:15):
named Huell Howser and it was on PBS called California
Gold and it was a half hour show. But he would go around California, find
these kind of little known, lesser known stories and he did a great job of
hosting it. But I'd love to do something like that up here. I mean it
would get me out and about. I like to do still photography too, which is
always, you know, I always got the still camera kind of on my hip just
in case, but a great chance to get to know the state and the people.
(32:38):
And I don't think I'm, I'm ambitious enough to do a half hour show every
month. But even like you say, the, the ghost town, what a fast, you know,
find someone like a ranger or someone who's very well versed in it and
shoot and hear stories and shoot the town and just, you know,
show these people that don't know about these things, these great treasures that are in
the state that they ought to make a visit to and check out. Yeah,
(33:00):
it's, it's just, I like telling stories. I got a, a friend who did
a great series. He, he used to work on NBC
News, but he, I forget the name of it, but he basically would, when he
would travel, he would sit down with people on planes
and basically interview them. Very almost pre interviewish.
And he said out of those trips he got a lot of little I think
(33:23):
it might have been the next seat over or something. He got these little news
stories that would air occasionally on NBC News of this fascinating
person that he just happened to sit by on a plane that had this amazing
story. You know, we've all got these stories, but unfortunately we don't have
a way to tell it. Yeah, I thought that was a really good idea. Well,
here's a podcast idea I've had for years and have never done
(33:43):
called Sidewalk Stories, where I just go into town and
grab someone off the sidewalk. Ask, can I interview you for 20
minutes? And because everybody has a good story, you just have to get it
out of them. You're exactly right. That would be a great idea. I mean,
you just. Who knows what you would stumble across? Everybody's got an
amazing story somewhere in their life. Yeah, that's right. Well,
(34:05):
Ken, I was telling you about books before we started
recording. I've got one more for you, and I'll mention it here
because I absolutely love the book. It is called the Lost Grizzlies by
Rick Bass. And it's about Rick Bass and Doug Peacock
searching for grizzly bears in Colorado which have been extinct for a long
time, but there's always been rumors of sightings, and
(34:29):
so they go out looking for them together. And it is a fabulous story. And
both Rick Vass and Doug Peacock are practically your neighbors now that
you're in Montana. So there's another good book for you, Ken.
I know people are going to be fascinated with you. Where can we find out
more about you and what you're up to? Oh, well, thank you. You're a good
interviewer. This has been really fun. So thank you, Jody. That's. Yeah,
(34:51):
you asked really good questions. So thanks for making it so, so enjoyable.
I just. It's kenkebo.com k e n k e b o
w.com a long time ago, a marketing friend said, you know, just take everything and
put it in one place, you know, and it turned out to be really good
advice from her. So everything's there. Yeah. And
hopefully sometime next year we'll have a
(35:12):
monster show. One thing for people, because I know you have a Disney a lot
of people are interested in Disney is the Rolly documentary used to be on Vimeo
for a fee. And when Rolly passed away, I just made it public. So if
anyone wants to see the whimsical imagineer who's interested in roller
Disneyland that's free on Vimeo, so they can just go on and type in the
whimsical Imagineer and it should be up there for him. But, you know, for me,
(35:33):
it's I'm not really in this to make money. It would be great to
have some of these, you know, go further than film festivals. But I really just
like telling stories like Rollies. And again, he had such an impact when
he said, ken, when I'm gone, my stories are gone. And I know I didn't
get all of them, but, you know, it's nice to know that maybe I've helped
keep his legacy alive to some way. So everything's on the website, probably stuff you
(35:54):
can care less about, but there's a couple good things on there, too. All right,
wonderful. Thank you so much, Ken. And thank you for listening to the
Jody Mayberry Show.
He'll give you a fair go. It's Sugar J.
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