June 11, 2025 • 15 mins
"It’s not just about the ride. It’s the story, the operations, the people in blue shirts picking up trash. That’s the magic."
Jason Surrell returns to flip the script and ask me three questions. Our conversation pulled back the curtain on why themed entertainment has captured my curiosity and professional heart. We also talk about my favorite attraction, Flights of Passage. The storytelling embedded in Pandora is a masterclass in immersive design. Jason also got me to talk about Magic Press, the publishing imprint I run through Morgan James. We’ve got exciting projects ahead, including one I’ve long promised: my own book.
Behind every attraction or book is a story. In fact, sometimes that story is the experience itself.
Read my blog for more from this episode.
Notable Moments:
[00:00] Jason Surrell returns for Three Questions
[00:01:13] How Jody got into themed entertainment
[00:02:41] Favorite attraction thanks to its immersive design
[00:07:42] The vision and future of Magic Press
[00:10:09] Progress (or not) on Jody’s own book
[00:12:40] Jason’s upcoming books and collaborations
Connect with Jason
LinkedIn - Jason Surrell
Connect with Jody
About Jody - https://jodymaberry.com/about-jody-maberry/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/sugarjmaberry
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jodymaberry/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/sugarjmaberry/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/jodymaberry
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Foreign.
Welcome to the Jody Mayberry Show. Last
episode, we had a wonderful guest, Jason
Sorrell. He talked to us about Epic Universe and all the
work he's done there and leading up to it. Well, as
we do on this show, when we have a guest, that
(00:21):
guest returns the very next episode to ask me three questions. I
don't know what's coming. These questions are not planted by me.
They're not prompted by me. They're not promoted by me. I don't know what
Jason's going to ask, but I do know I'm very glad he's here. Welcome
back, Jason. Thank you. It's great to be back. It was a fun
conversation we had on the last episode. So I'm anxious to turn the
(00:43):
tables on you, Mr. Mayberry. Okay, well, let's just jump right
into it. What's your first question? What draws you
to themed entertainment? A lot of episodes of your show
are with people who work in themed entertainment. I know it's a passion of yours.
You've got an imprint at a. At a publishing house called Magic Press
that's dedicated to themed entertainment. So what is. I know my
(01:07):
story. What is it about themed entertainment that has appealed
to you, to motivate you to do all this work? Well, I realize I
have two directions I can go with this answer. One
that just marvels at how wonderful
themed entertainment is, or there's perhaps
the little more candid answer, and it comes down to Lee
(01:29):
cockrell. Other than Six Flags in St. Louis, I had
never been to a theme park when I started working with Lee
Cockrell, but he is working with him, learning
how things are done at a theme park. That's what got me
in. And my goodness, I've learned so much. So, believe
it or not, the thing that draws me the most to theme
(01:51):
parks is seeing how things are done, how
stories are created. Yes. It's so entertaining. You
go to Disney World and it is. You'll have a wonderful day. I'm
so entertained. But I'm also looking at the operations and
marveling at the people in blue shirts, even,
that are, you know, our leaders that are picking trash up off the
(02:14):
ground. And I can't wait to go to Epic and see how they've
created stories, see how they operate. So, yes, I enjoy the rides,
but it really is operation and story that
keeps drawing me back. Well, that would lead me to my second question,
which is especially considering that you're arguably a later
arrival to the world of themed entertainment. What
(02:37):
so far is your favorite attraction and why?
My favorite Attraction, I think, is
probably Flights of Passage, because for three
reasons. One, it is an incredible experience
that there's no choice but to be all in on that ride. It's
fantastic. The other is the
(02:59):
whole operation of it. It's just amazing. So this goes
back to my last answer, but the way they operate
all of Pandora, with probably Flights of Passage being
the pinnacle of it, and then the third part of it is the
story that it is a story itself, the
ride, that's amazing. And I'll tell you, I was
(03:21):
fascinated to see after the second Pandora
movie came out, and then riding Flights of Passage again and
realizing, oh, my goodness, the storyline for the second
Pandora movie was right there in the ride the whole time. There are
scenes and characters from a movie that was never made in that
ride. It's pretty fascinating. But the way that
(03:42):
they created that land and made it fit
in Disney's Animal Kingdom as an actual
destination, you could go to, just like Africa,
just like the other lands, you go there as
a place. And how they crafted that story and took
something that was completely made up, made it a real destination
(04:05):
with a real story, a storyline. I know,
Jason, you know all about this, that you're not just
going to Pandora. There is an actual story there, whether
a guest ever even knows it. But that's why
Pandora works so well, is they created a
whole story around what's going on and what the cast members
(04:27):
are doing and why each ride is there. And I just find
it fascinating. The way they did it is so, you know,
it's going to be good. I think Animal Kingdom could be my favorite park.
And the safari is amazing. So, so many good stuff
there. But it seems so different to
say, okay, if you ride Expedition Everest, it looks
(04:50):
and feels like you're in the Himalayas. That's. I love it.
But then to take something that never existed,
but make it an actual destination with this whole
storyline, I just love that whole experience. Well, it's
interesting because one of the strokes of genius among many I think,
that we can attribute to Joe Rhodey is the specific story of the
(05:13):
land in that. And I didn't work on the Avatar project,
so some of this is just what I've picked up and heard over
the years. But I know they were reticent to set the
action on Pandora during a time of conflict, which, of
course, is what the first film is about. So,
to me, what I thought was compelling was the notion of setting the story
(05:35):
years after the conflict and the notion of
Pandora being an eco tourism destination,
where, you know, now it's finally open and safe, you know, for
humans to come and bond with their, with their own
Avatars and kind of explore the world because it gives you all of
the visual splendor that you want and expect from the movies. But it's in
(05:57):
more of a tranquil, beautiful environment where you're not worried about getting
caught in the crossfire. So were you a pre existing
Avatar fan or were you converted by the land
or, you know, what was your relationship with the franchise prior
to visiting? I did not see Avatar
until the night before we went to Animal Kingdom for the
(06:19):
very first time. We realized, oh, there's the Avatar is
there. Maybe we should watch the movie. And in the hotel room
at Disney World, my wife and I watched Avatar
before going to the park the next day. So it was really
knowing I was going to be there and then experiencing it. That's what,
what got it started. I want to add one more piece to what Jason
(06:42):
just told us is also in that storyline, you
can find any cast member in Avatar and
ask them what brought them to the planet. And they
all have a story, their own story. That's part of the cast
member training is that they are allowed to come up with
their own backstory because there's no script.
(07:04):
Like if you are in Galaxy's Edge, there's a script, but in
Avatar they each get to come up with their own story of what
brought them to the planet. So that's a fun thing you can do next time
you're there. Just find a cast member and say what
brought you here? And they'll tell you a story. It's a lot of fun.
So my third question is a little bit self serving, but as an author,
(07:27):
obviously I'm very interested in Magic Press, your
imprint with Morgan James Publishing. So I would just love to know what
can you tell us about the future of Magic Press and what you hope to
do with it and what kind of stories you hope to bring to the world
through it. Oh, I enjoy that question because it's a
chance to talk about Magic Press, what fun that has been. And
(07:49):
Magic Press came about. We did an episode about Magic Press
on this show once with David Hancock and Karen Anderson. So that
episode gives a lot of the good backstory. But it just came from
my relationship with David Hancock and Morgan James Publishing and
I kept bringing authors and finally one day we just
in a conversation came up with the idea of having a separate
(08:11):
imprint called Magic Press. And now when I work with
people, I can say, hey, not only can we do a book
for you. But we can publish it through Magic Press,
which is, is great because it has all of the backing,
all of the resources, all of the bookstore
distribution of Morgan James Publishing under the title
(08:33):
Magic Press. So that's a lot of fun. And we've got some
books coming up that I don't think it's out of
line to say the one next. I know Jeff
Barnes, the author of Wisdom of Walt. He has a
upcoming book with Magic Press. We're working on
some others that until it's a done deal,
(08:56):
I probably shouldn't say, but we're working with some others that have
a theme park background. Some, I
will say, some people that have been on this show, I'll leave it, leave it
at that. And then as it comes through, because I don't, I don't like
to say until, until it's a done deal because you just never know.
You've experienced that in your career, Jason. Sometimes your certain things
(09:18):
are going to happen and they don't. And other times the long shots
come through. And my hope is to get two or three books out
per year starting in 2026.
We have four out now. I don't think we have a title
coming this year in 2025.
And here's the other thing that's lingering and Jason did not know this
(09:41):
when he asked the question. I've been working on a book for years. It's been
an ongoing theme in this show that people keep bringing it up,
saying, what's up with your book? So hopefully in
2026, Magic Press will also publish a book by Jody
Mayberry. And that to me, that will be the best book we ever
have or will publish because it'll be my favorite, because it will
(10:02):
mean I finally finished. And
can you tell us what that might be about? Well, here's the
problem, Jason, is by the time I'm about
45, 46,000 words in
on a book about podcasting because it's something I know
very well, but I already have know what books two
(10:25):
and three and four are. And so I will leave
the first book and start tinkering with 2 and 3 and 4.
And then I get busy and then I don't work on any. So
the first book is 46,000 words in. I
intend to get to 65, so I can then cut it back to about 40.
And I just, I even invite people to email me and
(10:48):
I get emails often enough to hang my head in shame when
I have to tell people, oh, no, I haven't made any progress. So
that's it there. I'll finish the podcast book. The next
one is about using interpretation in
business. Because my background is a park ranger, I talk a lot about
interpretation. So that'll likely be the second
(11:11):
one or the third or the fourth, depending on. But that's
it. And also I. I've got one other
that I probably will do. I started doing a daily
podcast for my son and it is, it's really.
He did it two years his freshman year, his sophomore year in college,
and half the messages are from me, half are from other people. And it is
(11:34):
just a wonderful collection of wisdom that
Dave. I told David Hancock about the idea. He's the founder of Mortgage James
Publishing, and his first words were, that's going to be a book. Right.
And Donald Miller did a message for it once, and when I asked
him, he said, oh, I love that idea. That's going to be a book. Right.
So if two brilliant people like that say it needs to be a book,
(11:56):
it should probably be a book. Yeah, that's definitely a good indicator
that you're onto something. Yes. So there you go. Without
meaning to do so, Jason has now called me out for not finishing my
book. And feel free to reach out to me
at any time, Jody, at jodymayberry.com and say, hey,
what's up with your book? Have you made any progress? Because if I
(12:18):
feel enough pressure, I probably will just. I'll feel no choice but to
keep working on it. Yeah, your audience will guilt you into it. That can be
a good thing. Powerful motivator. Yes. There we go. Well,
Jason, I'm going to ask you, even though this was about me,
I'm going to now ask you, since we're talking books. You have written all
those books in the past. Do you have any coming up? Yeah, it's
(12:40):
interesting because I have two on the docket at the moment.
One is my memoir, which sounds very pretentious
and I really don't know any other way to put it, because that's what it
is. But it's really honestly motivated because
after giving a number, any number of talks over the years
to colleges and high schools and interviews with
(13:02):
reporters over time, you realize, wow, I might
have something constructive to say, especially to people
getting started or hoping to get started in the themed entertainment business or
just entertainment in general. So my memoir is
called Excellent Adventures in the Theme Trade
from the dawn of Hollywood east to the Twilight of the Imagineers.
(13:25):
And that's essentially my story going all the way back, really,
to high school, when I first got into performing and started to get
interested in Disney and themed entertainment and actually doing
this for a living, all the way up through my stints with Disney
and Universal and sort of culminating with Epic
Universe and the work that we did on the United Kingdom Park.
(13:47):
So that I am in the process of outlining and
going to get off a sample chapter or two to get that going.
And then the second book that I have on my docket is Pirates of the
Imagineering, a Disney classic, which is essentially a
reimagining of my original Pirates of the Caribbean book, which is no longer
in print. I have a lot of people over the years ask me,
(14:10):
well, how can I get it? It's on the secondary market,
ebay, Amazon Marketplace. But I definitely think there's a market
for the pirate story to bring it back. So that's a
book that I have planned. And then I'm also collaborating with someone
at Lucasfilm on a book on all of the Lucasfilm
attractions in the Disney park. Star wars and Indiana Jones,
(14:32):
Captain eo, Alien Encounter, you name it. So
that's something that I'm pursuing with a collaborator at Lucasfilm. I have a
comparable title for Marvel that I'm
interested in moving forward. So two are a lot more solid than
the others, but those are our four concepts that will
hopefully see the light of day and get published at some point.
(14:55):
Fantastic. Those are great. Well, if you want introduced
to Jason's books, a good place to start is the Haunted Mansion
book. It is. I think you did a great job
keeping some good artwork in there. Great story. So
if you enjoy Haunted Mansion, I know you'll really enjoy that book.
Thank you so much, Jason, for returning for the Three
(15:18):
Questions episode. Yeah, I know. I feel like James Lipton, so this
has been wish fulfillment for me. I have a similar.
All right, well, thank you, Jason, and thank you for listening to the Jody
Mitchell Mayberry Show.
There's no dramas here with Sugar J.
Foreign.
Welcome to the Jody Mayberry Show. Last
episode, we had a wonderful guest, Jason
Sorrell. He talked to us about Epic Universe and all the
work he's done there and leading up to it. Well, as
we do on this show, when we have a guest, that
(00:21):
guest returns the very next episode to ask me three questions. I
don't know what's coming. These questions are not planted by me.
They're not prompted by me. They're not promoted by me. I don't know what
Jason's going to ask, but I do know I'm very glad he's here. Welcome
back, Jason. Thank you. It's great to be back. It was a fun
conversation we had on the last episode. So I'm anxious to turn the
(00:43):
tables on you, Mr. Mayberry. Okay, well, let's just jump right
into it. What's your first question? What draws you
to themed entertainment? A lot of episodes of your show
are with people who work in themed entertainment. I know it's a passion of yours.
You've got an imprint at a. At a publishing house called Magic Press
that's dedicated to themed entertainment. So what is. I know my
(01:07):
story. What is it about themed entertainment that has appealed
to you, to motivate you to do all this work? Well, I realize I
have two directions I can go with this answer. One
that just marvels at how wonderful
themed entertainment is, or there's perhaps
the little more candid answer, and it comes down to Lee
(01:29):
cockrell. Other than Six Flags in St. Louis, I had
never been to a theme park when I started working with Lee
Cockrell, but he is working with him, learning
how things are done at a theme park. That's what got me
in. And my goodness, I've learned so much. So, believe
it or not, the thing that draws me the most to theme
(01:51):
parks is seeing how things are done, how
stories are created. Yes. It's so entertaining. You
go to Disney World and it is. You'll have a wonderful day. I'm
so entertained. But I'm also looking at the operations and
marveling at the people in blue shirts, even,
that are, you know, our leaders that are picking trash up off the
(02:14):
ground. And I can't wait to go to Epic and see how they've
created stories, see how they operate. So, yes, I enjoy the rides,
but it really is operation and story that
keeps drawing me back. Well, that would lead me to my second question,
which is especially considering that you're arguably a later
arrival to the world of themed entertainment. What
(02:37):
so far is your favorite attraction and why?
My favorite Attraction, I think, is
probably Flights of Passage, because for three
reasons. One, it is an incredible experience
that there's no choice but to be all in on that ride. It's
fantastic. The other is the
(02:59):
whole operation of it. It's just amazing. So this goes
back to my last answer, but the way they operate
all of Pandora, with probably Flights of Passage being
the pinnacle of it, and then the third part of it is the
story that it is a story itself, the
ride, that's amazing. And I'll tell you, I was
(03:21):
fascinated to see after the second Pandora
movie came out, and then riding Flights of Passage again and
realizing, oh, my goodness, the storyline for the second
Pandora movie was right there in the ride the whole time. There are
scenes and characters from a movie that was never made in that
ride. It's pretty fascinating. But the way that
(03:42):
they created that land and made it fit
in Disney's Animal Kingdom as an actual
destination, you could go to, just like Africa,
just like the other lands, you go there as
a place. And how they crafted that story and took
something that was completely made up, made it a real destination
(04:05):
with a real story, a storyline. I know,
Jason, you know all about this, that you're not just
going to Pandora. There is an actual story there, whether
a guest ever even knows it. But that's why
Pandora works so well, is they created a
whole story around what's going on and what the cast members
(04:27):
are doing and why each ride is there. And I just find
it fascinating. The way they did it is so, you know,
it's going to be good. I think Animal Kingdom could be my favorite park.
And the safari is amazing. So, so many good stuff
there. But it seems so different to
say, okay, if you ride Expedition Everest, it looks
(04:50):
and feels like you're in the Himalayas. That's. I love it.
But then to take something that never existed,
but make it an actual destination with this whole
storyline, I just love that whole experience. Well, it's
interesting because one of the strokes of genius among many I think,
that we can attribute to Joe Rhodey is the specific story of the
(05:13):
land in that. And I didn't work on the Avatar project,
so some of this is just what I've picked up and heard over
the years. But I know they were reticent to set the
action on Pandora during a time of conflict, which, of
course, is what the first film is about. So,
to me, what I thought was compelling was the notion of setting the story
(05:35):
years after the conflict and the notion of
Pandora being an eco tourism destination,
where, you know, now it's finally open and safe, you know, for
humans to come and bond with their, with their own
Avatars and kind of explore the world because it gives you all of
the visual splendor that you want and expect from the movies. But it's in
(05:57):
more of a tranquil, beautiful environment where you're not worried about getting
caught in the crossfire. So were you a pre existing
Avatar fan or were you converted by the land
or, you know, what was your relationship with the franchise prior
to visiting? I did not see Avatar
until the night before we went to Animal Kingdom for the
(06:19):
very first time. We realized, oh, there's the Avatar is
there. Maybe we should watch the movie. And in the hotel room
at Disney World, my wife and I watched Avatar
before going to the park the next day. So it was really
knowing I was going to be there and then experiencing it. That's what,
what got it started. I want to add one more piece to what Jason
(06:42):
just told us is also in that storyline, you
can find any cast member in Avatar and
ask them what brought them to the planet. And they
all have a story, their own story. That's part of the cast
member training is that they are allowed to come up with
their own backstory because there's no script.
(07:04):
Like if you are in Galaxy's Edge, there's a script, but in
Avatar they each get to come up with their own story of what
brought them to the planet. So that's a fun thing you can do next time
you're there. Just find a cast member and say what
brought you here? And they'll tell you a story. It's a lot of fun.
So my third question is a little bit self serving, but as an author,
(07:27):
obviously I'm very interested in Magic Press, your
imprint with Morgan James Publishing. So I would just love to know what
can you tell us about the future of Magic Press and what you hope to
do with it and what kind of stories you hope to bring to the world
through it. Oh, I enjoy that question because it's a
chance to talk about Magic Press, what fun that has been. And
(07:49):
Magic Press came about. We did an episode about Magic Press
on this show once with David Hancock and Karen Anderson. So that
episode gives a lot of the good backstory. But it just came from
my relationship with David Hancock and Morgan James Publishing and
I kept bringing authors and finally one day we just
in a conversation came up with the idea of having a separate
(08:11):
imprint called Magic Press. And now when I work with
people, I can say, hey, not only can we do a book
for you. But we can publish it through Magic Press,
which is, is great because it has all of the backing,
all of the resources, all of the bookstore
distribution of Morgan James Publishing under the title
(08:33):
Magic Press. So that's a lot of fun. And we've got some
books coming up that I don't think it's out of
line to say the one next. I know Jeff
Barnes, the author of Wisdom of Walt. He has a
upcoming book with Magic Press. We're working on
some others that until it's a done deal,
(08:56):
I probably shouldn't say, but we're working with some others that have
a theme park background. Some, I
will say, some people that have been on this show, I'll leave it, leave it
at that. And then as it comes through, because I don't, I don't like
to say until, until it's a done deal because you just never know.
You've experienced that in your career, Jason. Sometimes your certain things
(09:18):
are going to happen and they don't. And other times the long shots
come through. And my hope is to get two or three books out
per year starting in 2026.
We have four out now. I don't think we have a title
coming this year in 2025.
And here's the other thing that's lingering and Jason did not know this
(09:41):
when he asked the question. I've been working on a book for years. It's been
an ongoing theme in this show that people keep bringing it up,
saying, what's up with your book? So hopefully in
2026, Magic Press will also publish a book by Jody
Mayberry. And that to me, that will be the best book we ever
have or will publish because it'll be my favorite, because it will
(10:02):
mean I finally finished. And
can you tell us what that might be about? Well, here's the
problem, Jason, is by the time I'm about
45, 46,000 words in
on a book about podcasting because it's something I know
very well, but I already have know what books two
(10:25):
and three and four are. And so I will leave
the first book and start tinkering with 2 and 3 and 4.
And then I get busy and then I don't work on any. So
the first book is 46,000 words in. I
intend to get to 65, so I can then cut it back to about 40.
And I just, I even invite people to email me and
(10:48):
I get emails often enough to hang my head in shame when
I have to tell people, oh, no, I haven't made any progress. So
that's it there. I'll finish the podcast book. The next
one is about using interpretation in
business. Because my background is a park ranger, I talk a lot about
interpretation. So that'll likely be the second
(11:11):
one or the third or the fourth, depending on. But that's
it. And also I. I've got one other
that I probably will do. I started doing a daily
podcast for my son and it is, it's really.
He did it two years his freshman year, his sophomore year in college,
and half the messages are from me, half are from other people. And it is
(11:34):
just a wonderful collection of wisdom that
Dave. I told David Hancock about the idea. He's the founder of Mortgage James
Publishing, and his first words were, that's going to be a book. Right.
And Donald Miller did a message for it once, and when I asked
him, he said, oh, I love that idea. That's going to be a book. Right.
So if two brilliant people like that say it needs to be a book,
(11:56):
it should probably be a book. Yeah, that's definitely a good indicator
that you're onto something. Yes. So there you go. Without
meaning to do so, Jason has now called me out for not finishing my
book. And feel free to reach out to me
at any time, Jody, at jodymayberry.com and say, hey,
what's up with your book? Have you made any progress? Because if I
(12:18):
feel enough pressure, I probably will just. I'll feel no choice but to
keep working on it. Yeah, your audience will guilt you into it. That can be
a good thing. Powerful motivator. Yes. There we go. Well,
Jason, I'm going to ask you, even though this was about me,
I'm going to now ask you, since we're talking books. You have written all
those books in the past. Do you have any coming up? Yeah, it's
(12:40):
interesting because I have two on the docket at the moment.
One is my memoir, which sounds very pretentious
and I really don't know any other way to put it, because that's what it
is. But it's really honestly motivated because
after giving a number, any number of talks over the years
to colleges and high schools and interviews with
(13:02):
reporters over time, you realize, wow, I might
have something constructive to say, especially to people
getting started or hoping to get started in the themed entertainment business or
just entertainment in general. So my memoir is
called Excellent Adventures in the Theme Trade
from the dawn of Hollywood east to the Twilight of the Imagineers.
(13:25):
And that's essentially my story going all the way back, really,
to high school, when I first got into performing and started to get
interested in Disney and themed entertainment and actually doing
this for a living, all the way up through my stints with Disney
and Universal and sort of culminating with Epic
Universe and the work that we did on the United Kingdom Park.
(13:47):
So that I am in the process of outlining and
going to get off a sample chapter or two to get that going.
And then the second book that I have on my docket is Pirates of the
Imagineering, a Disney classic, which is essentially a
reimagining of my original Pirates of the Caribbean book, which is no longer
in print. I have a lot of people over the years ask me,
(14:10):
well, how can I get it? It's on the secondary market,
ebay, Amazon Marketplace. But I definitely think there's a market
for the pirate story to bring it back. So that's a
book that I have planned. And then I'm also collaborating with someone
at Lucasfilm on a book on all of the Lucasfilm
attractions in the Disney park. Star wars and Indiana Jones,
(14:32):
Captain eo, Alien Encounter, you name it. So
that's something that I'm pursuing with a collaborator at Lucasfilm. I have a
comparable title for Marvel that I'm
interested in moving forward. So two are a lot more solid than
the others, but those are our four concepts that will
hopefully see the light of day and get published at some point.
(14:55):
Fantastic. Those are great. Well, if you want introduced
to Jason's books, a good place to start is the Haunted Mansion
book. It is. I think you did a great job
keeping some good artwork in there. Great story. So
if you enjoy Haunted Mansion, I know you'll really enjoy that book.
Thank you so much, Jason, for returning for the Three
(15:18):
Questions episode. Yeah, I know. I feel like James Lipton, so this
has been wish fulfillment for me. I have a similar.
All right, well, thank you, Jason, and thank you for listening to the Jody
Mitchell Mayberry Show.
There's no dramas here with Sugar J.
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